 Hello and welcome to this event from the Australia Papua New Guinea Network here at the Lowy Institute. My name is Shane McLeod. I'm the project director here at the network. I want to first acknowledge and pay respects to the traditional owners, the lands on which the Lowy Institute is built. That's the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. I'll pay tribute to the traditional owners and their leaders and elders. Now, over the last few months here at the OZPNG network, we've been hosting a series of events focused on the pandemic and its impact on Papua New Guinea. We've heard from key figures, including the health minister, Jelta Wong, from provincial health officials dealing with the pandemic across PNG, and also with researchers who've been looking at the impact of misinformation and what it's been doing to the pandemic response across the country. Today, we're lucky to be joined by a key figure in PNG's pandemic response, the PNG police commissioner and pandemic controller David Manning. Mr Manning has been police commissioner since 2019 and from the start of last year has been the key figure in responding to and implementing government policy around the pandemic. Commissioner Manning has been able to spare a bit of time for us today and I'm very pleased to welcome him joining us from Port Norseby. Hello to you, commissioner. Good morning Shane and thanks for having me. Now I wanted to start off by just sort of understanding the role of controller. The way that PNG has set up to manage the pandemic puts you very much at the centre of things, alongside your, I'm assuming very busy job as police commissioner as well so tell us about that structure how does it work and why has PNG set up the pandemic responses that way. Thanks Shane. So firstly, let me, thanks for inviting me today. Let me say at the outset that Australia's support to PNG in the last 18 months has been monumental. Without your commitment, excuse me, without your commitment to, to your closest neighbour, PNG would be in a very, very different position than we are, than we are now. And obviously from, and from perspective of the government Papua New Guinea. Let me say thank you to, to your listeners and taxpayers for your assistance. And as far as your question is concerned, the government of PNG was very much alerted to the fact of what could potentially be a catastrophic event for Papua New Guinea if we, as in the government did not respond appropriately earlier on. We had, we had numerous discussions with relevant stakeholders, primarily in the, in the, in the, in the government sectors as to what would be an appropriate response should we have a, have a case of COVID in the country. This of course compelled government based on, on our national security advisory committee through the National Security Council, as advice to to cabinet that we needed to act swiftly. To allow us to, to basically give us a fighting chance if we were to have a, a, have a case of COVID detected in the country. With, with that advice, the government Papua New Guinea through cabinet, then, when we, when we did detect our first case which was a, which was imported. Which was imported was a member, a staff of one of the mining companies or a fly and fly out stuff. We immediately convened NSAC and, and they got and cabinet on advice, then for the advice to the governor general to declare a state of emergency which by law is is a three month duration. So, our saving grace back then was, was that we acted swiftly and decisively in the, in the, in the sense that we declared a state of emergency basically locking the whole country down. Whilst we conducted contact tracing. Consequently after that, after the three month period, the government then acted, acted swiftly in, in drafting up the pandemic act of 2020, which allowed us to continue our efforts. And of course, gave creation to the office of the controller, the pandemic controller. Of course, there was some, there was some pushback on, on how, on how we were able to continue our efforts under a state of emergency, of course, there's quite, quite restrictive in terms of individual rights and the government was, was aware of that, of that. The implications of extending the state of emergency and therefore opted for a, opted for a, the enactment of the pandemic act of 2020. Of course, which allowed us to continue our efforts to our efforts to date. Now the office of the controller is very much responsible for, for, for leading the government's efforts in responding to COVID. And of course, coordinating, not only our domestic efforts, but also our international assistance. Of course, I've made mention of the, the, the great assistance that the government of Australia and its people have generously given to, to public opinion, we continuously reminded that we would have been in a very, very different situation if not a difficult situation if not if it wasn't for the likes of Australia and other countries to be able to recognize that we were in dire need of assistance. And as such, the officer controllers continues to, to ensure that we, we not only sustain our efforts but also recognize our, our critical gaps in our public health system and our ability to continue to, to provide that, that, that response on behalf of the government and its people. I'll be keen to come back to you and talk about some of those, those health challenges because I know even the Prime Minister has highlighted the sort of gaps and the weaknesses that it has revealed in PNG's health system. But can I take you to that that first period, you know, responding to the pandemic, PNG had quite a lot of success in those early few months really with isolation, a lockdown strategy and efforts that really seem to tamp it down. I think it was that early success that then sort of came back to bite you afterwards you know when you had the second wave towards the end of last year early this year. What do you think happened in that intervening period. Look, we, we, I guess we were lulled into a sense of complacency. After we had the first case our rates of not only detecting other COVID cases after that after the first index case, but our rate of community transmission was was even at the, at the stage where it, it raised any alarm bills. And therefore I think the country as a whole, probably felt that you know that this, this COVID-19 was a foreign disease and, you know, the chances of us being severely affected by it would were very slim and we did not have the data at the time to, to rebut those that type of thinking and those views. But of course, forward 18 months fast forward 18 months and we've seen that we were basically paying the price for complacency that was, there was very much a result of our success in acting swiftly. And to sustain that type of response in the sense of the, in the sense of, you know, complete lockdown of the country was, was met with, with a lot of skepticism, a lot of resistance, especially from, from the private sector. And of course, people and people were losing jobs and we had, we had significant challenges with companies keeping their businesses, keeping their doors open for business, because it was just a difficult period to, to conduct business. And of course, this is not, you know, completely unique to, to carbonic in it but of course around the world. So yeah, so we just didn't have the data then to, to continue justifying a sustained period of, of, of, of a lockdown in which we, we had in the three months period. And of course, pressures from, from within government as well as all sectors of the community caused us to reassess what could possibly be done post the state of emergency. And one of them was to develop a, a, a national strategy going forward and that's the nuclear passing strategy that that was signed off by cabinet to be used to basically return to the new normal. And of course, we issued numerous measures and directions over that period. And we still do. The biggest challenge for us is the enforcement of those, of those measures. And of course the attitude of our, of our people. We'd rather see something unfold before our eyes before we, we, before our people so generally subscribe to that we are in the face of a pandemic. But nonetheless, we continue. It is very much the, the government's, government's intent that we continue our efforts all the while looking at that possible opportunities to, to return to the new normal but do it as safely and as responsibly as, as, as we can. Yeah. So, so where, where do you see things right now you had obviously a huge surge in cases in the early part of this year seems to have stabilized a little over the last month or so. Are you confident that things are relatively under control. And as far as community transitions are concerned and we're going to just go back to our initial response to when, to when we had our first surge earlier this year around March we did send out the NSOS to, to, of course, to Australia and other countries to provide the MDs emergency medical teams to come up and assist, of course, a lot of our efforts of focus on protecting our fragile health system as you, as you mentioned earlier. And, and as such when we were hit with that with our wave and again it did. A lot of epidemiologists would argue that that was most likely our first significant wave, but based on on what we experienced last year. All indications are they put it was our second wave. Now, after OSMAT, OSMAT came through that's the Australian EMT team came through. Earlier on in our response and of course we're able to scramble and come up again to to our assistance. In as part of their debrief they did indicate that we're most likely to see, see, maybe another similar incident happening throughout this, this, this 12 to 18 month period, but not necessarily in in Port Moresby or in NCD. And that is where we, we are mindful and continue to, to work with, with our provincial authorities because the, the, the, the assessment by OSMAT is that this would the third wave most likely be experiencing in one of the other provinces. And of course, with our fragile health system. The further you move away from, from national capital district. The more and more vulnerable we are in terms of being able to respond appropriately to a, to a, an outbreak of a surge. You mentioned OSMAT I know that one of the things that was a big focus, both last year and this year has been the data collection the data reporting on the testing capability. Do you, do you feel that that's under control now that you have a picture of how the pandemic, how the pandemic trends and being able to get that data that helps you make decisions. Basically, basically we are, we have a clear picture. No, not when not. I wouldn't be brave enough to say we have a whole picture of what's happening in the country as far as call it's concerned but we are. Yes, we're with the better information and more information that we had, you know, six to six to 12 months ago. Well, I think that confidently say that we have more information now and more understanding of, of, of how COVID is behaving in the country than we did when we first started. Yes, we continue to have significant challenges with, with capturing data. Which we worked closely with, with obviously DFAT and WHR to see how best we can, we can resolve those, resolve those, those issues and best, best, resolve those, those challenges, but also at the same time. We've also mindful of the fact that we, we did struggle in the early days with testing. Of course we're guided by best practices as to responding to COVID and testing has been, has been well documented to be, you know, to be an appropriate response to better understand COVID in the country. We've recently taken. Well received, we've received. Time the assistance from the Minduru Foundation. So an AI lab has been set up and that's, that's basically allowed us to, to not only ramp up the number of testing but also the turnaround in getting results back. As much as being improved as compared to, compared to in the last six to 12 months. So, yes, data continues to be a challenge for us. Testing and getting results back has been a challenge but we're hoping that with the, with the assistance from Minduru Foundation and having this AI lab that's recently been being set up will be able to not only up numbers in terms of testing but getting a result back to our people quicker. Yeah, so it, so we're working closely with WHO and others to make sure that we resolve those challenges and try to stay ahead of them going forward. Talking about the health sector now you come at this as a police officer of many years experience. How have you found the experience of being so closely involved in public health. The Prime Minister has talked about weaknesses in PNG's health system. Where do you see those weaknesses are and what are your concerns about them. Again, it has been very much a massive learning curve for everyone that's been involved, let alone the constabulary. Yes, the whole reason why the constabulary is involved in all of this is that we bring them, we bring command and structure to the whole response. Does law and order help when you're involved in this, like having the law and order background? Yeah, with law and order we understand the people better, we understand the attitudes, we also have a similar with the health department. We have a nationwide footprint and we're able to pull police resources to assist in the response and provide that collaborative effort with other stakeholders and provide the base of the leadership in our response. My assessment of our national department of health and our public health system is that it's very much similar to other national departments in the country. Trying to stand up a response amidst broken systems is very challenging. The constabulary is not completely void of those challenges, we also are transitioning to a more modern force. And bringing those experiences across to my role as a controller has allowed me a better understanding of the challenges in the health department and the public health system. It is definitely a concern. And at the same time, as the Prime Minister has acknowledged that COVID-19 is both a case and a blessing in disguise, a case that it has come at a time when our public health system is at its most vulnerable, but also a blessing that it has allowed us to realize what those vulnerabilities are and working and strengthening and providing and basically closing those gaps in our capabilities as well as our capacity to not only respond to COVID from a public health perspective, but also kind of better our public health system going forward. And you would ask as to what my, you know, through my experiences working with the National Department of Health and my assessment of the public health system, it has, it's no short of a miracle that we managed to continue to provide a response amidst its challenges and its shortfalls. You know, there's many issues that the Department of Health has to address if we were to wish to better itself. And of course, being in a position that we'll be able to provide a credible response to any health emergency. The public health system, as I mentioned earlier, the, our sole focus in our response was protecting the health system, protecting our health workers, of course, and protecting our health resources and also at the same time, showing that if we were to have a significant increase or numerous surges in throughout the provinces that our public health system would be able to provide at least a response, whether it is able to sustain that response is another thing, but at least come up with a credible and coordinate response if we were to, if we were to have widespread transmissions in the provinces. So, leadership is definitely something that's lacking in the public health system. Especially at the MDO actually the, I've commented quite openly in the recent past about the, but how it disengaged the National Department of Health is to government do we we often shy away from telling, you know, experts as to what needs to be done. And National Department of Health is, is, is one is one such body of, well, is one such department that's that's full of full of medical experts which our politicians tend not to, not to basically tell them what to do, but it has very much enlightened our political leadership as to what needs to be done in the health system and now we can't continue to ignore the challenges that the Department of Health has. Not only in aligning with with with government's response and, but also in in reconnecting I guess with with the government's you know, in turn, in, in, in developing any in as far as our health health service public health services are concerned. I do not envy the current secretive for for health. Dr. Osborne Liko is just recently come on board and he says he was appointed late last year. We've had we've shared a lot of our views as to what what the National Department of Health needs to do. Of course, in not only in in reconnecting with with government but also in ensuring that the public health authorities that that are that are provincial health authorities that are located in the provinces, a better, better supported and resourced. But again, that's that's a work in progress for for the Department of National Department of Health. So leadership accountability and what's what's being done in terms of developing strategies going forward in how we can better our health systems. Of course, working closely with our development partners, WHO and defend and the likes as to what has been done in the past and there's been significant investment in in our public health system since independence. As to what we have to show for it and that's that's that's something best, best left for for the Department for the Health Secretary to to to answer, but that is, you know, the National Control Center, which was created by the Democratic Act was was established because of the cabinet's National Executive Council's assessment that the New Age was was not up to providing that that response for COVID. Did that ask the question then I guess about structure and capacity right across the country. Do you get the sense that the provinces are taking the lead now that they're able to lead a lot of the response that's going on. Is there capacity there. Absolutely Shane and what's happened since our first surgeon in March was that we, we in the NCC had to had to re strategize and restructure to do to best support the public provincial health authorities. And that's that's what we've done. And we've, we've obtained significant significant significant improvements in in in how we, how we not only collaborate with and communicate with the with the provincial health authorities but you know I renewed a renewed effort in in focus at the provincial level rather than feeding it through the National Department of Health. And I just taking cue of our of our restructure basically restructuring and restructuring in the NCC and also have pretty much dovetail the efforts to, to, to add value to to the focus now that which is, which is on the provincial health authority, especially now that we were pretty much in the second month of rolling out a vaccination program. Vaccines I did want to ask you about vaccine hesitancy has been a huge challenge for png and I know there's an issue right now about that first batch of covax vaccines, getting very near their expiry date. What are the challenges how do you think it's possible to get more people to step forward and roll up their sleeves under the sleeves up campaign to get their vaccinations in png. Well, you know, I guess the resistance or hesitancy for anything relating to coven started when back then when you know when there's a lot of a lot of questions asked a lot of skepticism. There was a lot of anxiety out there when it came to whether COVID-19 was real. Unfortunately, that that that attitude has as as has been brought across to to the vaccine in itself. So we've had to really work with with a lot of a lot of our not only development partners but commit leaders to to to cross those hurdle cross those hurdles one of them. So we've, it's now no longer a question of whether COVID-19 is real. I think the general population around the country as accepted the fact that COVID-19 is real. So our significant challenge now is to to to convince our people that the vaccination is also real and is necessary to dealing with with COVID-19. We've had our hits and misses in as far as running up to the vaccine. And it's just been of recently that we've seen that there's more or success to be had if we if we partner up with with with the churches as well as with business with business and an industry. So we've, we've embarked on on approving vaccines to be rolled out through the extractive industry. So our minds are our biggest, biggest supporters at this point in time, our churches as well. And and businesses generally. We, we, we assessment is that if we continue that path in partnering up with with the industry will have a greater coverage. We're at this point we have some of the vicinity of 80 around 80,000 that will expire over the next month. We say that we can we're confident we can significantly decrease the number of expired vaccines. If we continue our efforts in in in rolling it out through through, you know, especially the extractive industry and businesses, which have now made it. Basically, it's been a lot of time and effort in getting the employees. Hoping to take the vaccine. I'm conscious of time I was keen, just as we finish up today to get your thoughts on where things are headed what are the big challenges do you think for PNG in these next few months with the pandemic and what sort of things that be put in place to get ready for that. How people just need to understand, you know, what PNG is not is is not in this by itself. I mean what we do here has a direct reflection on how other countries open up and especially when there's much talk now about economic recovery. Of course, we, we were based on our on our on our current hesitancy on on on vaccinations we were just finding it a significant chance to basically tell our people in the form of people that look. We either get on board with the rest of the world, or we will suffer the consequences. For example, capping our flights in and out of the country, especially in the industry. For instance, does have an impact a significant impact on our extractive industry. This is where people fly in for four weeks and then head off home for a couple weeks and back again. We've had my insights reporting back that they've had to keep their people on, you know, for months on end, because of the quarantine quarantine restrictions of host countries, or countries which the five or people that workforce call home. So it does. Whilst the, you know, people said, well, come on, let's let's just get back to all that's, let's just pretend that COVID-19 never never existed. You know, whilst we try to capture their, their concerns and find some middle ground, but it won't reflect too well on on us as a country and as a government if we were to completely relax, relax our measures to satisfy, satisfy that that that view, of course, because we'll only have to have another, another surge in the provinces and we'll find ourselves locked up from other other countries, which we rely on. But, you know, going forward. It'll take some time to get, get the vaccine rollout. So, so accepted to greater readers with what we're experiencing now. But I think what's, what's, what's required now is this great collaboration with our development partners to see how best we can get our health system if our, if our vaccination program. You know, doesn't does not gain momentum at least we've bettered our health public health system. Our enforcement of our nuclear passing return to new normal will continue to be absorbed as business as usual for many from all sectors throughout the sectors, but at the same time. I think the general population has, has accepted that COVID-19 has impacted many, many economies, many countries, many communities around the world, and we're far from, from being an isolated incident. So, going forward, you know, bettering our health system, ensuring that we, we continue of its infection in our vaccine rollout, as well as focusing on, and again, this is headed by a different, different entity focusing on our economic recovery. We did, and the Prime Minister has made it quite clear that the jobs will be lost. Unfortunately, families will suffer, but it is, it is not an isolated situation for our unique situation for Papua New Guinea. So, in a way my commission's had, we, we, we, we're 12 months away from national elections. There has been some sporadic law and order challenges around, around the province, around the provinces. As such, we, we had to see the full brand of, of what a pandemic and the government's response to the pandemic can, can result in, in as far as social, social problems are concerned. But I think, well, we, we believe that we're on the right track. It's just, it's just, it'll just take some time to get, to get where we want to be. And there are so many more questions we could go into today, but I'm conscious of you're a very busy person, so we shouldn't take up any more of your time today. I appreciate you giving us that time. And I hope for our audience watching on remotely that it's been useful for you as well. We wish you all the best with the ongoing response to the pandemic. And thanks again for your time today. Thank you, Shane. We're really proud of it. And thanks to you there in the audience for watching us today. This has been an event from the Australia PUP when you're getting network here at the Lowey Institute. Visit our website, ospng.loweyinstitute.org to find out details of what else we've been up to. And we'll look forward to seeing you at one of our events again soon. Bye for now.