 There we go. And we're live. Cue music. There it is. Copyright. Yes. Copyright. Morning everybody. Morning. Hello. There we go. I blame Debbie for suggesting that it was going to be a seamless professional start this time round. It jinxed things definitely, didn't it? But here we are back again for the Friday webinar number 33 for XXXIII as we like to call it. Absolutely. Yes. Trips off the tongue, doesn't it? It does indeed. So great to see people here. And we're looking forward to today. We are. We are. We've got lots of exciting things today. Right. Okay. So let's get started. So what we... Oh, here we are. Today's webinar moved on one to slide too many. Here we are. We've revealed our first thing. But anyway, we've got some news items. There's a public lecture with Emily coming up to Conference in Canada survey, which Jane and I have been involved in. And we've got a new waffle, which we're going to talk to you about. But the main event is Fabian Frank from University of Bamberg, who we are delighted to have with us today. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So Jane, you advance to the next slide and I will hand over to you. Okay. Okay. Well, just hot off the press as well, that we've just had a tweet back from Comic Relief. Okay. So Comic Relief are doing a sort of... It's next Friday, by the way. So a week today. Red Mose Day. You've got loads of time to get involved in this. Very, very exciting. On their website, you can download this poster. So we pop the link in there. If you put it in the chat for everybody. You can put this in your window or you can take a photo and share it on social media. So in addition to tagging Comic Relief, we've suggested that you write your best copyright joke on here. And you share that on, you know, whichever platform you wish. So just to say, Chris, literally like two minutes ago, Comic Relief have told us that copyright jokes is nice, quite niche. So I've told them it's going to be trending by the end of the day. So we've got a lot to live up to, really. But we thought, yes, yeah. So have a look on there. You can see the greatest joke ever. I'm just going to wave the piece of paper, but you have to go on Twitter to be able to see this, I think. So we're not going to reveal that great copyright joke at this moment. Shall I tell it? Because you know how I'm so good at telling jokes. Okay. Yes, I think you should. And normally get the punchline in the wrong place, like before I told the jokes. I think you know the joke about blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Okay. So how many copyright officers does it take to change a light bulb? Come on, I don't know, Chris. I don't know. How many copyright officers does it take to change a light bulb? Well, it depends on your institution's appetite for risk. Yes. Okay. Anyone else? Anyone else? Anyone else? Anyone could do better than that. Anyone pop something in the chat, but also get yourself a poster. Let's get copyright jokes trending on Twitter. Come on. Okay. There we are. Come on, Jenny. You can do better than that as well. James Bennett isn't with us today from the CLA, but I know he's got an even worse copyright joke that I'm short on. But we won't steal this thunder. No, I won't say the punchline. I won't say it. Okay. Good. Okay. So, sir, reminder, we have an archive here, so all the other 32 webinars. Well, not all are recorded, but most are available for you to catch up on. So, the next item is copyright news. Copyright news. Copyright news. Copyright news. Copyright news. Copyright news. Copyright news. Copyright news. Copyright news. Copyright news. Copyright news. Copyright news. So, the first item we want to draw people's attention to next week, I think we have Dr Emily Hudson, who is a regular contributor to this webinar, will be doing the create public lecture on an empirical perspective on drafting copyright exceptions. So definitely worth tuning into that when we've had Emily speak here, but I think this is going to be a really good opportunity for her to talk more about what her findings were from, you know, many years of empirical research. The book is, in my view, essential reading for anyone who's responsible for managing copyrights in an institutional environment. Focus on cultural heritage institutions, but that does include education, educational institutions as well. And she's spoken to many people over the years and some really useful insights. So I would strongly recommend that we hope to do some sessions as well leading on for that in even even more depth with Emily in due course. Oh yes, yes, I was going to say watch this space. Yes, we're hoping a couple of seminars aren't we? So when we can track her down. Yes, she's not here today. So I was just checking. Okay, next over to me. Yeah, ABC conference. So ABC conference is the Canadian copyright conference. It is going online. Not surprisingly. So it's held in May, the fifth, sixth and seventh, and they've got a call for papers out now just to let you know it does actually close. I think it is on Monday. So it's pretty soon. And if you want to get in there, but it's definitely a conference that's worth checking out. And also, there's been some really interesting developments on, you know, how fair dealings being interpreted in Canada. So it'd be a really good chance to get up to speed to that. Obviously we have Karis Craig and Bob Tarantino speaking who are Canadian on one of our previous webinars. So lots of really interesting topics that they're looking for proposals for. So if you've ever fancy going to Canada on Zoom, then this is your opportunity. So yeah, I just wanted to flag that one up, but you need to get your thinking caps on over the weekend. Oh, this is me as well. Isn't it? It is. You're on the ball today. Yes. I'm totally on the to do my tummy rumbling as well. I'm quite hungry. My microphone is very sensitive. So it can sometimes pick that up. So yes. So this is this is this is me in another with another hat on. So a chair of the information literacy group. But actually Chris and I got involved in the academic reading format study about six, five, six years ago where we did the sort of UK version of this study. It looks at students sort of preferences around reading academic texts. And if you haven't caught up on it, then I've got a blog post that gives you a bit of background, including some of the publications that came out of the earlier research. So it's all been led by Diane Mizraki, who's from UCLA, so California, and collaborating with her and a colleague, Alicia Salas, who's at Carnegie Mellon University. And we started chatting late last year about the findings from the study, but kind of what those might mean in a time of crisis and, you know, given that many of us are now pretty much exclusively supplying students with ebooks. So like, I'm not spoiling the kind of background to the research, but essentially the research finds that students don't really they struggle quite a lot reading in electronic only. You know, they do like to print things out if they've got to read them in detail, or obviously to have access to print books. And I just really felt that it was very timely to try to do another study. So if you want to help, essentially, there's details on the blog post, but you can drop me a line. The study is available. So it's been approved by UCLA's Ethics Board. It's up, and we're asking institutions in the UK to promote the survey to their students. And if then they want to get the data from their students, providing their students fill in the form that says what university are you from, then they can they can also register that with me. So you'd be able to get, we're certainly going to have really interesting data about students in the US, students in Canada, and students in the UK. And then you would be able to get your own institutional data, but I'm quite interested in looking, for example, whether UK students more broadly, you know, are there any differences between their preferences and students in other countries. So that's that's that's it from me. That's just a short update. It wasn't particularly short. Anyway, the, the other thing that we're very excited about this week is the most recent episode of copyright waffle. We've mentioned here that Dr. Ben Marsh of the Marsh family fame. Many people would have seen performing songs with his family during lockdown parody songs that works at the University of Kent. So, Jen and I spoke with him last week. So we've recorded an interview where he talks in depth about his, you know, his experiences navigating the world of copyright, YouTube content ID, algorithms taking things down, dealing with music publishers. You know, he talks about his copyright heroes. He, and he's such a nice guy, isn't he? He's, he's, he's, he's lovely. And he's quite a professional now after becoming an internet sensation appearing on late night TV in the US with the family performing and all sorts of things. So, yeah, it was, it was absolutely fantastic to, to, to talk to somebody who copyrights kind of wasn't a sort of major part of their work, but then suddenly, you know, was, you know, was something that they had to consider in a kind of really real and practical way. And it's, yeah, just kind of the whole thing about parodies is I think lots of people have always been interested in that. So it's, it's one, it's one to share widely, isn't it? Definitely. Yes, most definitely. Not just for the copyright geeks. Okay. So I see that there's a question from Kirsty. I've just put a quick answer. This isn't something that we plan to talk about in depth today, but I've suggested if we can come back to any other issues because what we want to do is actually move on to our guest presenter now. To make sure we get enough time to give Fabian some time to talk. So, Jane, you're going to introduce our special guest this week. Yes, I am. So Fabian Frank or hair doctor Fabian Frank is the director of the library at the University of Bamberg. And Fabian and I met in 2013, I believe it was in Istanbul when I was at the European Conference of Information Literacy. Fabian may correct me and say actually I wasn't at that conference, Jane. It was the year later, but I have a very strong memory of actually sitting down next to this chap on the coach going to a gala dinner that was held on a boat on the boss for us. So I am fairly sure I'm not making this up. But anyway, yeah, so we started chatting and found out that he was from Bamberg in Germany and he told me lots about this beautiful city. And we stayed in touch pretty much ever since. So Fabian was the chair of the information literacy group in Germany for a number of years, information competence. He invited me out to Berlin and we had a great time at a conference there at this huge, huge German library conference. And he was also he's also on the IFLA information literacy section group. But because, you know, he obviously he became interested in copyright, like, like you would. And so he's going to talk to us a bit about the research that he did on copyright literacy in Germany, some of the issues that have been coming up during the pandemic. So Fabian over to you. That's another short little intro from me. We'll get your slides up in a moment as well. And you can confirm perhaps if this is true about the that is where we met it was definitely. Yeah, I think it was in Istanbul. Yeah, I think I think so. So good morning to everyone. Hello from from Germany. Thank you very much for the invitation and for the introduction. Jane, it's a pleasure for me to be here and to discuss copyright matters with you. I won't show some photos of the beautiful city of Bamberg because we have a little time, but one of the next ACL European conferences on information literacy will take place in Bamberg. It was planned for last year, but of course it has been postponed. So I hope I see you all in Bamberg. One of the next years you can see Bamberg directly and personally. So now to copyright law and copyright literature in Germany. It's kind of a never ending story because we had in the last years every four or five years a change of copyright law new amendments. Today's copyright law is from 2018. And at the moment, we have a bill to adapt copyright law to the requirements of the digital single market. A new draft law with some minor changes concerning copyright for education and research. The big issues now are the ancillary copyright for past publishers. I think it's a worldwide issue. And the second one, at least an European issue, the responsibility of platforms for the contents that the users upload, keyword upload filters that are their main points. But now to the copyright exceptions for education and research. We have in Germany, of course, one of the easiest ones, right of quotation. And there's a right of quoting provided that the scope of use is justified by the particular purpose. There's no limit in length or whatever. But one has to prove that the quote is really necessary for the scientific purpose and the scientific research. Now a new, next new exception that was new in 2018, reproduction for scientific research. Up to 35% of the work can be reproduced for own scientific research. It must not be transmitted to third parties and it must not be published. But for own scientific research, it can be used. The amount has been improved in 2018 and I think that's a really good exception. A big issue, copyright exception for teaching. I think that's a very good exception we have in Germany. It is allowed to distribute digital or printed up to 15% of the published work to the students of a particular course. So not general in the net, but for the participation of a course. 15% of the work and also scientific journals, articles from scientific journals, but only from scientific journals. So it's not allowed to make newspaper articles available to the students. That's kind of a problem we still have. But I think that is really used nearly from all teachers at university and also at schools. Here we have some problems with the collecting societies. I come back to this a bit later. Then digital reading rooms, that's an exception for libraries. Libraries are allowed to make a work from the holdings accessible to the students at terminals in their rooms. That means terminals in the library. It's not allowed to make the works accessible in the university networks. And users are allowed to reproduce up to 10% of a work. That's a good exceptions for all these works, which cannot be licensed. Of course, we prefer to license ebooks. We prefer to buy digital materials. But if it's not possible, for example, if the publisher doesn't offer it to two libraries, or it's much too expensive, then this is the alternative. Of course, you have also paid to the collecting bodies. That's in one of the next slides. First of all, Interlibrary Loan. It's also regulated in the law. We may transmit electronically or in print up to 10% of a published work to individual users in the Interlibrary Loan. And also new in 2018 was an exception for text and data mining. Also very interesting for the researchers and scientists. And now it's updated in the new bill. And this year it will be updated. The law has not yet passed our legacy rotation. That means that the productions for text and data mining is allowed for scientific research. It may be made accessible for a defined group of people who are joining the research. It's not allowed to make it public in general. And the bad thing, if you want, as soon as a joint scientific research has been ended, also the public access is to be ended. Libraries may keep reproductions. Only as long as necessary, we don't exactly know what it means. How can you say how long it could be necessary? It will be interesting if this new law will be in effect. So we look at the most important problems we still have. One thing, of course, a reasonable compensation has to be paid to the collecting societies. Of course, that's okay. So at the moment we have agreements with the collecting societies. That's a bit complicated in Germany because education is a matter of the federal states. So not of the Bundestag, not of Germany at all in the whole. So we have agreements for the interlibrary loan of books and we have agreements for the digital reading rooms. But we don't have agreements for the digital interlibrary loan. What means we are at the moment not allowed to transmit copies digitally to our users. In fact, we have an exception from the exceptions. We now, due to the pandemic situation, we are allowed to transmit it digitally until the end of March. And we had it also last year for two months. But it's pretty sure that this exception will be ended. And then we still have no agreement and digital interlibrary loan is not allowed. And most even worse, we have no agreement for the teaching exceptions. The good thing is we are allowed to do this nevertheless. But we have to keep in mind and we had to save the money and to reserve the money that we will have to pay for it. Big problem, maybe one of the biggest, that most of these exceptions for libraries, also interlibrary loan and digital reading rooms and reproduction for own scientific use are limited. They are temporarily until March 2023 and nobody knows what happens. At this time, with the new legislation, will it be cut off? What will happen? So that's a really big problem. And that's the reasons why all our library associations need to make it up to politics and politicians that without these exceptions, there's no good teaching and research in Germany. So our demands are that we need a general exception for teaching and research. We have at the moment another big issue concerning to e-learning. So the lending of e-books that concerns mostly our public city libraries. There is no right, no general right to lend to borrow e-books. You have to license every e-book you want to lend with the publisher. And the publisher has the right to say no. So it's a fact for public libraries now, the new, the really new works, the new novels, they are not allowed to distribute electronically. That's a real big problem we have. And for teaching and research, we really need the permission to make articles from newspapers available to students, even with no license. How can you teach high school students if they are not allowed to read articles and if the teachers are not allowed to distribute articles to their students? So our library association had issued a statement, of course that's in German, a statement to the new bill and to the other copyright laws. So we are very active in Germany even from the library side to force hopefully a new and a better copyright law for education and research. Next point, what about the copyright literacy of the librarians? We have in Germany, so we made an online survey in 2019, two years ago, where we first asked the librarians how to rate your copyright literacy. We had over 300 answers. And what you see is that a large amount, more than 50% of the librarian think they are rather competent, good or very good about the exceptions for quoting and for digitization and reproduction. The knowledge goes down and is not really satisfactory in other things, especially publication rights or the exceptions for teaching. We then asked the librarians, is there a copyright officer at your library or at your university? About 40% don't have a copyright officer. Other 40% has a copyright officer or person responsible for copyright issues and advising students or researchers in the library and about 20% in the university. That's not too bad. Anything, maybe you can compare it with your situation in the UK, but still there are 40% that don't have an explicit officer or person who is responsible. And I don't think that this number did increase over the last two years. Additionally asked was which copyright related topics are covered in your library information literacy courses. It's not a real surprise that the matters where the librarians are competent quoting and digitization is also a matter in the courses. But we really could do more in teaching the publishing rights or by teaching the teaching exception concerning copyright. So what we did, now last question I want to show you, we asked the librarians, should copyright play a stronger role in the education of librarians? And do you want more library training courses and the copyright law? The librarians should evaluate on a scale between 1 and 100. And you see the need is very high, about 80 from 100 that it should be played a stronger role as well in the education and as well in the training of librarians. We compared our results with international results. Probably you know this very interesting multinational study about copyright literacy of information professionals. And first of all we look of copyright issues regarding digitization. So intimately it's about 40% of the librarians who think they are good or very good in these issues. Our findings in Germany, what concerns scanning, librarians think they are. They have a very good knowledge, about 60%, but the matters of digitization for teaching or digital reading, so I think we're rather in the midfield of the international results. Next look, copyright issues regarding often works, also about 20% of the German librarians who think their knowledge is good or very good, that's nearly around the international situation. Okay my last slide, just three conclusions or diseases which I really would like to discuss with you. Librarians should fight, librarians must fight, librarians must stand for better copyright law. That is a task for librarians and also for our library association to be in the game for better copyright law. Copyright should become an integral part and a stronger part of the education and training of libraries. And libraries should incorporate copyright issues, maybe much stronger than they do now into their information metric courses. So I am looking forward to your opinions. Thank you very much Fabian, yeah that was absolutely brilliant. Let me just say bye. Thank you very much, yes, yeah and really good points you're making in your last slide as well. Chris and I have just put in a couple of links to the articles, but you actually, you published didn't you? So I'll put a link, I think we do have your study, so I'll just find that and I'll put a link to the article that you wrote about copyright literacy in Germany. But it's really interesting to look at the comparisons as well and lots of really similar themes coming up. I'd quite like to go back to what you talked about at the start of the session though, where you were talking about the exceptions that you have or that you don't have in Germany. So you don't have an exception similar to illustration for instruction or illustration for teaching at the moment in German law, do you? That's kind of the crux of what's causing so many problems. No sir, we have the exception for teaching, that we have it in the copyright law, but we have no agreement with the collating societies about that. That's a problem. Yes, sorry to come in here, but just to make a really important point here, there is a key difference between how copyright exceptions work in the UK compared to many countries in Europe is that you have the exceptions, but they must be remunerated. So it's in the law that you can rely on an exception, but there needs to be money paid that then goes back to rights holder organisations. So it doesn't work in the same way where we could rely on illustration for instruction and there is no fees paid, but we have licenses arranged with the collecting societies. So am I just clarifying, and Nora's question, are there licensing groups in Germany? Yes there are, and the likes of Vargae Vort, which is the equivalent of CLA, but can you just explain to us how that's working with the exceptions then? Presumably you are paying money to Vargae Vort for making scans as we would with the CLA, but you can't rely on an exception unless you've come to an agreement about remuneration, is that right? Exactly, that depends. Of course there are both things. Of course it has to be exceptions in the copyright law and we need the agreements with the licensing groups, collecting bodies. We need both. If we don't have one, we cannot use it. And the negotiations between the science of the university's education and the collecting societies, the licensing groups have to be made by our federal states. That's the problem because education is a kind of federal state. So the federal states are negotiating with the licensing bodies. And then they have to come to an result, which amount of money we have to pay. And now we have this situation. We don't have this agreement for teaching. Nevertheless, we are allowed to apply these exceptions because both the federal states and the licensing bodies says, you are allowed to do this, but keep in mind you have to pay and we need to negotiate the amount. The other thing is digital into a library loan. We don't have an agreement and we are not allowed to do it. So when the federal states are negotiating with the collecting societies, does each federal state have to do its own separate negotiations or do they come together? We are a group of a federal state, but in fact, every federal state has its own interests. There are richer federal states, which is, okay, we don't have to look exactly at the money, just make it clear. We have other who don't have much money who say, oh no, we have to look exactly what amount has to be paid. But of course, there is a group who negotiates with the licensing bodies. It's called the Kultusminister Conference. I just have to say, for the record, I love German words, where you just bolt them all together and make a really long word. What's your favourite word, Chris? My favourite word is Straßenbahn Hautestelle, as Fabian means. That's a red card. I have Donald Damschefatz Kapitins with him. Okay, and what is that one? That's a former wife of a captain of a ship on the Donald River. Brilliant. That word could be really useful, actually, for when we go to Bamberg. But can I go back to the question about the issues you have with your educational exceptions and the coming of the digital single market directive, where you have changes coming through, there is a new illustration for teaching exception at the EU directive level. Is that going to help the situation for you in Germany, or will they end up sticking with something which is still this uncomfortable, you know, federal clutch? I think, especially for teaching, if it helps us, not because there will be more exceptions. We have the same exceptions as the EU digital market has regulated, but in fact now also this exception for teaching is limited, is temporary. And now the plan is, it must not be temporary, so it will be extended because European market, European Union says so. So that's why it helps the EU directive, that's why the EU directive helps us. But not really in the exceptions itself. Right, I see. Okay, tricky. I think Jane wants to move on to some of the, I should say, Ur her berecht kompetenz questions around copyright literacy for librarians. You just love it, you just love it. Yeah, Evelyn picked up a point actually about librarianship courses. So you said that in the survey that librarians felt that they should learn more about copyright and that came through quite strongly. When we did our research, we actually did some research as well of library and information students a couple of years ago, which, you know, found that they felt that it wasn't something that was covered. In enough detail in their courses. Is, you know, has it been, has that been discussed in Germany about whether, you know, there should be more copyright literacy education for librarians when they're qualifying? And might that be dealt with by the German Library Association or something? Yeah, we discuss it, especially from the point of view which qualification is needed for librarians to teach copyright issues. And that's maybe a kind of dispute. So do you need a legal education to teach copyright literacy or is it sufficient that you have your library education, which, which has more focus on copyright issues. So that's a, that's an issue in the German discussion. But I think among teaching libraries, teaching librarians is widely accepted that copyright must be an issue in their courses. Yeah, yeah, I think that's an interesting point as well because we've had that whole discussion of, well, you're not trying to turn librarians into lawyers. You know, and I think for Chris and I, that's very much why we think this is about copyright literacy rather than just learning loads about the law. So that, you know, you've got to kind of as a librarian, you've got to interpret it, you've got to apply it, you've got to kind of understand, you know, okay, so the law might say this, but, you know, there's factors here to do with risk. You know, where it's, it's not always clear cards. And obviously, you know, you talked a bit about interlibrary loan and things like that, you know, the services. Of course, it's absolutely clear that we don't allow to give legal advice. Yeah, that must be absolutely clear. And I'm not a liar, too. And I'm just a librarian and physicist. Okay. But there's no legal advice. But I think we have to practice to see what's what's interesting and what does and what does our, what do our users need? Yeah, I think I mean it's an interesting point. I think to talk about, you know, librarians are not lawyers. It is something that keeps coming up. But I think what we, I think what we do see is a difference between people who are thinking about litigation and clearly if there is a likelihood of litigation, then you need lawyers involved in that. And then what librarians tend to deal with is the questions that come up all the time and understanding about how you manage those risks and how you what practices you put in place in your institution and what behaviors you would expect from library users. But mention of litigation, I mean, there have been some very major legal cases in Germany. And I'm thinking particularly about the Darmstadt case with the digitization and making available those materials in at a university. So what impact has that had on German institutions? Yeah, yeah. So we had this, this lawsuit before 2018, before this new copyright law went into effect. And the new copyright law make some of the most of the issues of this of this lawsuit very, very clear. So before 2018, it was not clear which amount of work can be made available to students. There was the formulation in the law was small parts of the work, but are small parts 10% or 15% or 5% that was one issue of the lawsuit. And now it's clear it's 15%. So today we don't have such large lawsuits in Germany about libraries and copyright. But the last sorts of students we have made clear that we need more concrete legislation. It possibly made, did it perhaps make the library community a little bit more nervous in Germany? Because I think that's often said in the UK that, well, we haven't had any sort of, you know, we haven't had any case law. We haven't had any universities involved in this. It's not to say that that's made us complacent at all, actually. I think there's still quite a lot of anxiety in the UK. But I just wondered if it had kind of made the library community feel we're going to need to do some more about this. I won't say we are nervous in general, but we are very cautious. Okay. That's very, very cautious. And if it's not really key, most librarians says we don't do it. If we are in danger to risk a law conflict or last week. Okay. I mean, that's, that's even not very good because if you're always too cautious, then you, you don't use some of the exceptions. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, we've talked about that as well. I'm just wondering if anybody would like to ask Fabian a question. This is your opportunity if you want to come on the mic, if you've got something that you want to say. Chris and I can ask him questions probably until the end of the day. So it's always good to chat to you, Fabian. They're really interesting. But has anyone got anything? Lovely. Just to say while you're thinking if you do have any other questions, I put a link in the chat to. To the, the university Darmstadt case. And it's an Eiffel webinar that was a few years back, but it was Dr. Niels Rower who was the lawyer in that case explaining it. And I remember listening to that. It's a really great webinar if you want to get into the detail of it. I mean, I guess the question, the big elephant in the room is maybe not a question you could really answer Fabian, but it's about the fact that previously the UK was going to be fairly well aligned to Germany in the area of copyright law. But, but now, now we're not, I mean, I don't know whether you have any thoughts about the relationship between the UK and Germany when it comes to education and trying to consider legal act legal. You know, what happens with the law? I mean, do you have, does Bamberg have links with UK universities where these legal questions are now more tricky? Or is it not so much of an issue at the moment? I mean, I think, of course, we have links exactly, especially exchange in students, the students exchange of both. And of course, it's a very bad situation. How much opportunities are for UK students to come to Germany and for German students and researchers to go to the UK. I mean, of course, this is a big issue we discussed. And of course, we all regret the UK's decisions to leave the, I think, really most of the Germans and all of the researchers and universities regret it very much. So, in fact, I have no idea what the leave means for copyright law. Well, it's being discussed in what it means in the UK, obviously, because, you know, it means we have the potential for our law to move further away from, you know, from Europe. And also, you know, for us not to, not to obviously we're not going to implement the digital single market. Nora's just popped a question into the chat, which is about whether you have any exceptions on copying for students with disabilities in Germany. Presumably you do the Marrakesh Treaty. Marrakesh Treaty, yes. Of course, I didn't mention it yet. We have it. So it's allowed to copy and to reduce it for impaired students, for students with blind students or whatever. Yeah, of course, we have it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. No, that's great. Well, that's, we've had some really great discussions. I think you're going to stay on the line after you Fabian. So if anyone thinks of anything, pop it in. But I'll take us back to our slides. But I just want to say thank you so much. Yeah. Go on. You say it, Chris. You say it. I was just going to say thank you. Yeah. Yeah, it was great to have you join us. And I think it's really useful to just do the compare and contrast between how the different laws actually impact in practice. So it's tricky for everyone at the moment. We can understand some of your pressures. And we definitely want to keep you, keep in touch with you. And under the auspices of our copyright and online learning, especially interest group as well, where we want to have a much more international outlook. And rather than just focusing only on what happens in the UK. Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. And I hope to keep contact with you. Mind me, do it anyway. So. And that's about copyright. Sure. Of course. Thank you very much. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you, Fabian. Don't run away. Don't run away. We haven't finished. I'm saying we, we, we always like to leave people with something nice and fun as well. And it's a good one this time. Well, before we get to that, before we get to that, we do have to just quickly touch on what we're doing next time. So we've mentioned the copyrighted online learning special interest group and we are actually having an update from the group in two weeks time. What have we been up to various working groups and plans that we have. So we'll be looking, looking forward to that one. Claire Kidwell put out on a link to a recent survey from the music library association YAML. And of course we just jumped on that immediately and said, okay, so when are you presenting on it? So she couldn't get away with without presenting. So we've got her coming up in, I think we're doing two weeks time aren't we? I think it's going to be the ninth, the ninth, yeah. The question of access to audio visual content under license as well. So I saw Kirsty raise that right at the outset. And Helen unfortunately couldn't stay with us. So we, we know that the situation when it comes to Brexit created an issue where box of broadcasts had an allowance for students, usually better in the UK, but temporarily in the EU could access box of broadcasts. But now that's changed with the, with Brexit, there is no reciprocal portability regulations in place for copyright law, which meant that era couldn't provide the license. And therefore box of broadcasts couldn't provide that service. So that's why institutions have now been getting a refund if they paid for that extra license fee. We've spoken to Helena under the auspices of the Copyright Negotiation and Advisory Committee because we know that there are, you know, the pandemic is changing. We are hopefully going to see people returning to campus, but we know that there's still a need to get remote access to content. And in fact, even like putting the EU question aside for many years, we've been asking era to allow access to recordings from UK TV and radio to any student anywhere in the world. But as she said, it's a very complex issue. We know that production companies, film companies are very protective of their copyrights. And we will, we've got access to some BBC news content and BBC Parliament because the rights issues are fairly straightforward. The other rights issues are very complex. So what we're proposing is getting to having a workshop where we can actually look through what kind of content is it that we need access to so that we can help target what era might be able to do on our behalf to try to speak to the right. Groups, the right rights holders and try to unblock where those are. It's quite a big piece of work. And I think we need to manage expectations of what we can do, but certainly we want to try to support, you know, what are our needs from the education community. Yeah, that's useful. There's a little curtsy popping in the chat as well that film for was one of the kind of things, you know, obviously film content is definitely something we know is a particular issue. So a channel like film for that has a whole wide range of films on it, you know, to have just I think letting Helena know that that's the kind of content we want is going to be really useful. So Fabian, we've got loads of lovely comments coming up in the chat with people thanking you. And I do hope you might come back and join us again for another session. We're hoping to have regular slots with with people from the international copyright literacy community. If anyone has other topics that they want to talk about in one of our webinars as a more of a discussion, or if they've got something to present on then as ever please drop us a line. But before we go, we have got one final thing, haven't we Chris? Well, yes we do. I think you hunked it up a bit much. It's not that amazing. But anyway, it's, it's moved the slide on, moved the slide on. So this was you had been listening to the Adam Buxton podcast. Oh look, my face has been disappeared. Right. Okay. We have to stop that. Let's see if we can actually get the slide there. You've done a very clever piece of photo shoppery, haven't you? I had. I had. So some of you think that we're the original Chris and Jane or Jane and Chris. But in fact, we're not. Are we? Of course. We're not. We're very famous Jane and Chris, or otherwise known as Torval and Dean, the ice skaters. And yeah, I stumbled across this podcast of them chatting and it's with that Adam Buxton. And it was quite amusing to me, partly because he's interviewing two people week, sometimes the two of us try to interview one person. And we, there we go. We thought, what do you think to that? So, I mean, it is a thing of beauty, isn't it? I think people can definitely now envisage us, take into the ice. But if you do want to have a listen to, if you're like a child of the 1980s, remember their Bolero, then it's definitely one to have a listen to. But for me, it was certainly, it was quite interesting just hearing this constant talk about the original Jane and Chris. So that's something to leave you to. I'm impressed that Caroline met them at the Nottingham Ice Rink as well once. So I'm sure they weren't as fun and animated as us, were they? Okay, everyone, that's it. It's 12 o'clock. Have a good. Oh my goodness. There's a really good part. Coffee rice. Oh, no. Let's stop the recording there everyone. And thank you all. See you in two weeks.