 Hello everybody. Thanks for watching. We're going to be talking playwriting and dramaturgy and how plays are made with the amazing Martine Green Rogers. Hi, Martine. Thanks for being here. Thank you for having me. I'm super excited. Likewise. It's going to be great fun, everybody. So the short version of why I wanted to do this with Martine is she's brilliant. She's amazing. She's hilarious. She's a fabulous person. But she's also the president of the literary managers and dramaturgs of America. She has worked as a dramaturg for my play, The Book of Will at Oregon Shakespeare Festival a couple years ago, which is where I got to work with her. And I just think she's the smartest lady out there. Thank you. But truly, the whole point of these series of interviews is to let people in who may be at the start of their careers or mid or wherever to answer the question of how new plays are made, how any play is made. How do we get from the building of a coalition of collaborators to create this thing? How do we understand a new play? How do rewrites work? How do playwrights work with dramaturgs, directors, all of it? And you are such a critical piece of that. And I want people to know more about what you do, what dramaturgs do, what you particularly do as a dramaturg, what you like about what you do, I don't know, all the things. All the things. Yeah. So do you want to maybe start by telling us a little bit about your background, like how did you come to be a dramaturg, what your all the many positions you are now. How did you, how did you get to do this? That's actually a really good question. So I, in undergrad, I went to Virginia Wesleyan College, which is now Virginia Wesleyan University, and I was a double major in theater in history. And I think I was actually, this sounds really weird and kind of trade, but I think I was actually like born to be a dramaturg because I was that person that would come to rehearsals and undergrad with like a bunch of research I had done about the play, because I was just so excited about like sort of cracking into that world as an actor. And so I, you know, sort of, you know, what we now call the sort of hunting gathering phase of dramaturgy, that was always how I kind of started my process anyway. And so my advisor, who was actually still a Virginia Wesleyan University, her name is Dr. Sally shed, one day sort of sat me down and said, Martin, not that you're not a great actor. But there is this feel called dramaturgy. Have you heard of it? And I was like, no, tell me more. And then she explained what it was. And I was like, that thing. I want that. That sounds awesome. And so then it became this really weird thing where we had a requirement where we had to as undergrads, we had to audition for everything, but I didn't want to audition for anything. I was like, I'm going to dramaturg all the show. She was like, no, Martin, you still have to audition. But if you don't get in the show, you can dramaturg it. So then that just sort of set me on my path. So that and then I went to grad school for that and then just kept going to grad school because I'm going for punishment. And then, and then here we are. Awesome. Oh, that's so great. So it does seem like research and kind of understanding the world of the play is a huge part of what what dramaturgs do. And so tell me all of the jobs that you do now you are a teacher. All the things just kind of did I specifically do or what are what what are all the titles and all the things and all the organizations you usually work with and like OSF and that. Okay, great. I like I don't have any wood to knock on but I'm a knock on it. I am an assistant professor but I'm up for tenure right now. Imagine going up for tenure in these really interesting times and that's me. So an assistant professor at the State University of New York at New Pulse, which is lovely I'm the head of theater studies there. And I am a freelance dramaturg I work at places like the Oregon Shakespeare Festival. I work for theater in Chicago, Salt Lake acting company in Salt Lake Utah. Oh, I'm liking lots of places. Oh, the Kennedy Center. Oh yeah. Sorry Kennedy Center I love you. I love places like that. I also am the president of the literary managers and dramaturgs the Americas but I'm actually the outgoing president I have a few months left in my tenure and then I get to move into past president fame. And then our new president Brian Moore will take over at the end of our virtual conference in June. Wow, awesome. Okay. Alright so let's get to the nitty gritty of what a dramaturg does so if you were starting. Okay, I mean there's several categories right there's like what is a dramaturg do on a classic play like Shakespeare what is a dramaturg doing a brand new world premiere play what is a dramaturg doing a workshop or a kind of modern American classic and they're all different things right. Yeah, there's a lot of niche dramaturgy as I like to call it. It's been kind of interesting because we that the field it's become so vast and how dramaturgs are being used. You know like I just did some what I affectionately called music turkey which is not the same as being a musical theater dramaturg, actually dramaturg to piece for the Louisville Orchestra a couple years ago. It's so fun and interesting but it makes perfect sense because music tells a story as well and then if a dramaturg is about helping a group of collaborators tell the best story they can tell. That makes sense. But you know their their classical dramaturgs and that's actually how I got my start I started as a classical dramaturg. Unfortunately I don't get to do as much classical dramaturgy anymore what I've been doing is a lot of what I affectionately call Shakespeare adjacent, like the book of will. I call Shakespeare adjacent about Shakespeare but not Shakespeare. And then there's new play dramaturg which is a whole new skill set and I think that's part of the reason why the field has become slightly more niche is that there are some basic things that you just need to know in order to be a dramaturg but then there are some basic things that you need to know if you're doing other things other skill sets like if you're a musical theater dramaturg it really helps if you can read music. Right and then I think you play musical theater dramaturgy is very different than already established musical dramaturg musical theater dramaturgy. Yeah, it gets really specific. In terms of the kinds of skill sets that you need and I think you know depending on what people who are dramaturgs want to do, you can kind of meld different skill sets and kind of become either someone that branches or goes across lots of different types of musical theater dramaturgy. I think I go across quite a few I do a lot of new musical dramaturgy as well as musical theater dramaturgy as well as new play dramaturgy as well as classical dramaturgy and contemporary African American theater like Wilson is definitely very much in my wheelhouse things like that so yeah. And then you know, there's dance turgy dance turgy. Yeah. Right. I am so I'm and then there are a lot of opera turgs. So, yes, I mean there's just some really fun places where you see drama pop up also notice that drama turds are starting to be hired in art museums. Oh, that's right. Yeah. And because I mean you know back to the same thing even an art museum is attempting to curate a story. Yeah. With someone's work artwork and I see a lot of drama turks starting to move more into sort of producerial, but I think that's also just part of drama turgy like the sort of advocating aspect of it is very But then I think sometimes drama turds also a lot of tend to be go getters. We were just talking about so everyone just before we started talking. I was talking about, I just got a some money to secure a theater study of scholarship at my institution which is super exciting. And that's fun and you know part of that is built out of the desire to to sort of help curate experiences back to telling the story. What does it mean for us to support our theater studies students in the same way that our performance and our design tech people get support. That is, you know, a lot of what we do. Yeah. No, I love it. It's, it's why we're here. This is, it's incredible. I mean, so knowing that there's a lot of playwrights that are watching this and people making new plays directors and such. So how do you, what is let's let's focus on new play drama turgy. And the ones where the playwright is alive and usually next to you. Yeah, they're my favorite. You can actually collaborate with the playwright. Yeah, I mean, I love it. I remember learning what a drama turd was when I was a student at at Emory, and they did a play of mine that was the first kind of one of the first big productions that I'd had that had like just lots of moving pieces and it was that I had a drama and I kind of couldn't believe that I could ask them it was a history play so there was things like, you know, writing, I wrote that there was a chocolate cake in the play and he of course was like well actually at this point in England they drank chocolate they didn't eat it and I was like, wow. You know, and then of course the great there's the research part. And then there's the kind of the world of the play part the goodness and the and the and the solidness of the story and the playwright's vision and all of that so how do you, how do you do that work, what is your relationship with the playwright knowing that of course each playwright is a different but what are the kind of tenants of new play drama turgy that have worked for you. That's actually a great question. Number one, I just love the fact that you're highlighting something that I think is really important that needs to be said which is that research drama turgy is an important part of the job but it is not the only part of the job. And we are so much more than that. And, and I think sometimes unfortunately people forget that, you know, everyone can use the Google, everyone can get to a library in ways that we once could not and so that function not that it still doesn't have to do many, many, many, many other things now. Yeah, but to answer to really to get to the to your question, I think, you know, part of new play drama turgy is being, you know, you know, essentially that that person that is interested in helping in a room, tell the best story that they can tell. And I think, you know, especially in a new play drama turgy situation it's kind of weird like you're essentially collaborator with your main sort of jobs are both to the playwright but then also to the institution, the organization, the director that you are also working for especially if you're doing both in terms of helping the playwright create the text but then also moving into the rehearsal, because those sometimes that can be two different jobs. Right. And then sometimes drama turks don't always have both jobs like I've, you know, helped people playwrights develop plays but then didn't necessarily go into rehearsal with them. Right. So those are sort of two separate things but I think, you know, especially in a room, my job is really to make sure that whatever it was that the playwrights saw in their own artistic mind is what ends up happening on stage. Yeah, and I think part of the reason why that's so important especially with new play drama turgy is that we're still like sometimes in the process of trying to just figure out what is that thing in the playwright's head what did they see when they wrote it because I think, you know, especially with words like you can write the most detailed stage directions in the entire wide world and still depending on how director sees it, it might not be the same thing. Yeah. And part of where one needs to, and I know it feels like and it sounds but everyone just like just work with me here, it might sound limiting that the thing that we're trying to do is get at what's in the playwright's head. But really the reason why is because if we get there first, then we get to see where it can go. Right. We need to get that thing first, in order to then be able to say, okay, now that we've realized that thing, are there potentialities are there are there are there cracks are there, you know, what are all the things that are sort of left to mine. We haven't been mind yet, but we've got to get there first. Yeah, the playwright's vision. It's both perfect, because it is the universe that gave birth to the universe of the play what's in mind, but it's also imperfect, because it is the collaborative space of creating the play that you go, yes and yes and yes and to all of it and my most successful relationship with dramaturgies have been the one to say, what you have written makes me ask this or makes me question this or makes me want more of this makes me go. So where does this person character go and like it's the saying yes to the playwright's idea means that you have every other question that you can answer to make to your point the play as good as rich as, you know, as it wants to be. You see the wants to be yeah I tell my dramaturgy students that that a dramaturg is an option giver, not an option does take it away. Yeah, because I think, you know, really the question becomes like how does every choice is like that you know that we are butterfly effect thing we're like, you know every choice that you make leads to other options and like, I feel like my job is to say okay we've made this choice and this choice is great. Let's talk through what are all the permutations and which road do we want to go down now that we've gone down this particular block. And then once you know if we turn a corner for the left we go right we go straight doesn't matter the question is like, you know, and then once we get there. The question is then looking at the map that didn't be created that's been created the structure of it all and saying okay this is what we have now this is amazing this beautiful. Like, how can we make this even more amazing and beautiful, or maybe we'll just get to the end and it's perfect and then hey, yeah, I get to go. I enjoy your opening. Yeah. Now, how have you found, I'm trying to get at like if somebody who's never worked with the dramaturge before or kind of knows that at them knows of them knows that from a more removed place or anyway but what is, what can you ask a dramaturg for help with I mean what what are the best ways to use drama to engage with them to bring out your brilliance to make playwrights. Right, you know what I mean. Yeah, I think the thing that we're best utilized for is I think the thing that is also probably the scariest thing for playwright to do, which is to basically say, like, I'm struggling with this help me figure this out. Yeah, right. You know, which I think is always sort of hard for anybody no matter like, you know, I think about my own writing, both as an academic, and then every once in a while, I'll write a play because why not. Because you do because it's a long story but we'll catch up and I'll tell you more about the thing. But, but I think it's that, you know, use a dramaturg to do the thing that is the hardest to do which is to really say like, I'm struggling with this, or not sure what to do with this because I because I mean really, and truly and honestly, any drama that is worth their salt. The only thing that they want to do is help you create the best story you can create. Yeah. So, you know, like, if I'm working with a playwright, all I want to do is help them do whatever whatever conversations whatever questions I need to ask, etc. Those are the things that I'm going to want to ask I'm going to want to poke at so usually even when I just start working with a new play. The first thing I always want to do is I always just have a conversation with the player before I even read it. I don't want to usually I tend to not first unless I don't have a choice. Because I just want to know like who is this person who is this artist, like what are the things that I can, like what is important to them as human being. Because a lot of that you will feel the undertones of that and any work that they create and I want to get a sense of that before I even read the thing. And then even, and then usually I'll read the thing and then I will ask, you know, a second set of questions which are you know what is the story that you're hoping to tell. You know, I know it sounds like a terrible question to ask is actually a really important question asked which is what are the, what do you want an audience to take away from it. Because in the end like I want to I want to see if like what I read on the page is like what they're hearing in their own minds and artistic artistic eye and then you know moving forward from there. I'm, you know, asking questions like okay if someone says that I'm not sure about this character, you know, and I think I'm also there to also be a bit of a cheerleader if that makes any sense because I think sometimes like it's easy. And I, you know, and like I said I know this from my own writing experience sometimes it can be intimidating it can be hard like you, especially if there's something that you know is a bit of a weakness. I've been there when like playwrights have actually managed to get it and then they still don't believe they got it. And so like, you know trust a drama trigger for drama trigger it's like stop touching that thing. Just leave it alone. Cut and print. Exactly just just letting go, you know, trust them, because, you know, back to my, my, my only goal is to help the playwright write the thing they want it to write and so now granted that could always change like if you decided that like this thing or this character or this event or whatever. Isn't quite what you want anymore now that you've got it that's one thing but you know, I think it's always, you know, I say that sometimes what we do is we, you know, we take the keyboard away, like let it go. It's okay. Let's just hear it. Yes, let's hear it. And then talk about it finding ways to talk about the question in the room. I mean, I remember my first plays I wanted to have I thought the playwrights job was to have all the answers. So a question would come up and I would say, well, here's how, right. Here's, here's how I've already answered that in the text that you've been given as opposed to, that is such a great question how can I change the text. If it feels like a valuable note to me, how can I, what does this allow me to think anew. And how do I do it and, and also the critical thing of saying I don't know, learning the power of as a playwright going, that is a great question I have no idea. Right answer. Let's dramaturg. You and I shall go have a drink. About this question. You mentioned that because I actually say that a lot to my students as well as like, you know, our job is not to know all like part of what of what we did we discover it in the room and even then we don't always discover all I'm sure I don't know any playwright that is not like if given an artist who needed to keep tinkering would not like yeah I mean they probably just keep tinkering and tinkering and tinkering. Right. And you know and I think you know, and that's fine, like but then it's not because then you just torture yourself as an artist. So really the question is, where do you leave the space that it can grow into like whatever sort of magical world it can be like I always think one of my favorite things the entire world world is to work on multiple versions of the same thing I know it might sound. That's cool. But like I've done, for example, several tempest I've done several fences, and each one has been really different and it's always amazing to me how these different amazing things can come out of the same text. And that is the lovely space that you want to leave it in where there's just enough, where there's like a brilliant world that can happen that every time it happens it still is the essence, and and very close to the thing that you want but just enough space where like it can be something brilliant and beautiful. The next time around. Yeah, that's so great. And so, in terms of like, we were kind of talking about once a show gets to that premiere and kind of when you're in the room with actors with a director you got a design team all of that, which is amazing. But that's a far distance from from some people just starting out like draft one of the play you got to the end of the script you're like congratulations. Who do I give it to I get that question a lot we people asking me to read their place which is an amazing honor that someone would would ever want me to do that. But my first response is like you actually don't want me. Because I always want to talk drama tricks about it so how, how like, if there's just a playwright who would love a relationship with somebody who is a dramaturg or has a dramaturgical background. If you approach that, how would you suggest writers out there who have their first or second or third draft. They want some new eyes on it they want to have a smart conversation about it how would you recommend them finding a drama trick or yeah. There are all sorts of amazing places you can go on the LMDA website there is a find a dramaturg tab that's up at the top. So you can go find one that is locally to you. Yeah, the new play exchange also has a button that you can use in order to find drama tricks who are looking for work and are near you as well. So great. I also think like sometimes word of mouth is great. I think depending on what kind of help you need and like what your ability is to potentially like compensate. Yes, of course. Pay your dramaturgs. Right. Pay everybody. Great. I know pay everybody, including your dramaturgs. Yes. But I think also sometimes like I think I've had friends ask me to do things like, you know, can we give their play a world in my dramaturgy class. You know, and that is a very interesting and free way to get. Some dramaturgical feedback because you know, I think, you know, the process of new play dramaturgy is such like it's hard to teach it until you just do it. You have to do it. And so the easiest way that I found to do it is like to ask playwright friends of mine who are writing things like is there is there something we can work on in my in my dramaturgy class. So I've done that in the past. I didn't get to do it this time around, which made me a little sad but but that was mostly because I just didn't have admittedly I just didn't have the time to like go around skulking around being like, alright, who wants who less who wants to let my team's class have a crack at that. That's such a good I just want to repeat those resources because that's awesome the website, the new play exchange, but all of those websites you should all as writers be familiar with but that is such amazing advice. And like, that is actually who you want reading your play. And I think, and I think especially with like, and if you can manage to, you know, contact your local university and you have there's some there's a, you know, person who teaches dramaturgy. I think they would love the opportunity because that's the thing what you know even from the last time I taught dramaturgy where we had a playwright whose play we worked on the students still to this moment still talk about how because we would have the playwright and so we would have conversations about play and and and I think they really just enjoyed a, it was a good learning experience for them I think it was also like, you know, depending on where this person was in their journey in terms of working with dramaturgy is really great for them to because they got to see what it's like to just, you know, watch dramaturgy try to figure out like how to ask a question in a way that doesn't sound like you're accusing them. Which is always important. And, you know, and just watching them formulate those questions but then also just getting all the perspectives and a lot of ways you can get a lot of perspectives really quickly if you're if you're mining something like a dramaturgy class, and especially with like young up and coming artists, I think they're really interested in what people are writing about and want to know more about the process I think it's also just a really fun experiment for everybody that I think, you know, you could always just ask some of the playwrights that have had the unfortunate pleasure of being on the opposite and I'm just kidding I think they actually enjoyed it, but you know, getting getting all these like random questions about their play and I think you know in a lot of ways and I think I tell my students all the time the thing that you have to remember about collaboration that is that is actually collaborative. Like, what a dramaturg says is not law. Like, if you want, you know, if you're if you're if you give a note and like a playwright always has the opportunity to say no I don't want to take that note, and that's okay. Yeah, you know, because, you know, and I even say this even with playwrights that I work with now like the top of a lot of my emails are always just like, please take these if these are useful to you. Use them if they are not useful to just pretend like they don't exist, because I want you to create the thing that you saw in your head. Yeah, but sometimes the note even if you don't take it clarifies something clarifies like no that is not right which is help that's helpful to go. I am very sure that that is not the where I want to go but thank you so much for offering it. And I think one of the things that I also talked to sort of, you know, just amongst my own circle, geometry circles, etc. that like, in the end, my job isn't necessarily to like, I'm, I tend to look at plays very logically, as well as emotionally but logic first so the question to you know as always the questions that should be asked like, what is the story have we told the story and then like sort of tapping into the emotion of it, which is why I think most dramaturgs and I think a lot of dramaturgs that could be assuming a lot, because who knows how everybody's brain works but I think in the end we are always looking to make sure that, you know, we are remembering that what's most important is that we are serving the story that is in front of us as opposed to like turning it into anything else. So I would never want you want to take a note that wasn't useful. Yeah. Yeah. No, I love it. I mean, this is because it's such a critical role, dramaturg. But it can be so many things and can kind of shrink and grow depending on the team and the needs of the play that it is a little hard to pin down that's kind of what's amazing about it and and also the most frustrating thing to it makes it frustrating to try and teach sometimes because it's like well, how do you how do you do this thing and I think, you know, especially for me I'm like well there's an artistry to it I think everyone brings a piece of themselves to the art of poetry, like for me, because I would I feel like I'm a sort of sympathetic empathetic person a lot of the place where I live tends to be about really making sure that I am holding up, I'm holding I'm bolstering the work that the playwright that I'm working with is done, while also remembering that, like, you know, you know, sort of pushing while also saying, you know, like, we can get it there. But you know, I'm just rambling now so But so what, no you're not rambling, I didn't mean to be like, yes, yes you are. I'm thinking of like all the things I want to ask you. I mean, so I'd love to know about the kind of interpersonal part of a dramaturg, like working with a writer and a director and actors and kind of how you surf those relationships and and if you consider that's what you do, and to kind of, you know, because working with a lot of people's beings working with a lot of people and different personalities and sometimes they're on the same page and sometimes it's not on the same page. But we all have to get on the same page so how do you, how do you talk or teach that. And that's the thing that's, you know, the part where it gets hard because part of, you know, what a dramaturg finds himself doing is like, I am, I am. I would say and not to be weird and kind of like place any kind of weird gender stereotype on it but I think I practice a lot of mama turdy. In the sense that I just put turdy at the end of everything, but like I'm that person that like, you know, I learned a long time ago during tech sometimes the last thing that a director wants is like a dramaturg poking around and so like I'm there to like hold my playwrights hand and bring some cookies to like, you know, take notes obviously see things, you know, see things and then like once like the hurdle of like that push that 12 out of 12 is over then like, okay, saw these things. Love you here some notes. The interpersonal part I think is probably the hardest part to navigate because really what you're doing is trying. I don't think it's, it's a dramaturg's job to keep anybody happy. I think it is a dramaturg's job to try and make modes of communication as clear as possible. Oh, that's great. Yeah. Yeah, you know, and I think especially in a collaborative art that is visual. Sometimes there are things that people are seeing that aren't necessarily being articulated well I think sometimes become that translator. Oh, that's smart. Yeah, I think safe person to bring something to I mean, you know, back to really no other there's nothing else that I'm trying to do besides help everyone create the best story that we can, we can tell I have no other ulterior motives. So, you know, if I see things brewing if I see things that are, you know, coming in terms of like the proverbial train wreck that might be coming down the road like, I'm also there to have those conversations but I think I haven't had I haven't had that where I need would I keep saying things I'm like I need to, I have a marble table. But I haven't had one of those situations and a really long time. I think the more you progress like in the field. There's less tolerance for that kind of behavior. I hope that's what it is. So I mean, I do think that is one great bit of advice and realistic sensibility about for those out there. I think it does pay to be nice. You don't need to be walked all over that's you're not giving your power away, but to lead with kindness and to lead with the fact that we're all making a thing together and it'll be better. We respect each other lead lead with that. To me it seems like the more hallowed institutions that I get to work with. It's like generally the nicer the people. Not that people at small institutions are not nice but you know what I mean like sometimes you weed out just the trouble making personalities the divas and the whatever. Because I think, you know, for me, I'm, I don't, I guess I approach dramaturgy and theater making and art making is that nothing is set in stone until the thing is like open. Yeah, right. And so to me and maybe some of it is just like my demeanor and just like my my humanness that like if I see something like if you know I have a playwright that's really upset about something that's happening I was like, we can we can have a conversation this isn't over yet. Right. Like, let's have a conversation figure out what it is that's not quite going the way you see it and then let's like, let's go together like I will hold your hand we're going to go have a conversation with the director. You know, we'll have a conversation with a producer will have you know whoever it is that we need to have a conversation with but like, that's great, you know until the thing is open there's always room. And, and I think that that outlook has served me well at least person. Well, and it's, and it's true because there's no reason to give up to your point like it's not open until it's open so we can continue having these conversations depending and continue saying I don't know until we know. I mean that's what it is. And you know it's interesting. I think for playwrights for playwrights out there it's also a way to, you can learn to speak the same language as your dramaturg. And for me I'm a very structure based fixer of a story I kind of need to know. I think that the dominoes in the best way and talking in those terms very quickly helps me see how to rewrite how to adjust, you know, how to, how to fix a scene that's not working or an action that's not working and kind of finding a that's part of their, their, their skills but also that I can kind of let them know how I talk. You know, that may be talking to me about like deep character subtext is not the conversation that's going to actually get me the rewrites I need to be like, but plot wise, but dramatic structure wise. That's important. That's, you know, back to why I have a tendency to talk to playwrights first before I even read the play I just want to get a feeling for who they are, what makes them tick like what you know where the places we connect, because I think that gives a lot of clues. As to like, you know, what is it that's going to resonate for them and this is part of the intuitive part the part where like a dramaturg has to really be listening in order to hear, like, like I am not to be weird or anything but I find that I can tell pretty quickly like talking to playwright, you know, I can sort of discern what are their fears. And I don't mean fear. One thing the night but just like about the process like, you know, you know, and some of it's even just like, I try to have conversations in person, you know, or like at least face to face in some way shape or form is possible because you can see that like slight I twitch that happens when you say or you know, those types of things we say okay I can tell that this that is not something that they're really excited about so we're going to try and see if we can steer away from that or if we have to have a do we have to like have them involved with it like I think about that all the time like I work with Great Plains Theater conference. Yeah, and I love them so much because of the way that they approach new play dramaturgy, but we know they you playwright have options. Yeah, they can have a talk back not have a talk back they can have a public one a private one all sorts of stuff and and I just enjoy so much watching the things, but I also feel like part of my job is to poke a little bit like it's the reason why you don't want a public talk back because you're scared what people are saying, or is it because like you just don't feel like it's at that point where you're you know what what are those things because I think sometimes and not that I'm like about talking people out of things they want but you know that it's back to like, you know, is it at a place where it needs to hear what besides you and me think about it. And then even finding ways around that like can I just collect all that information from people and then it's given to you in a format that like makes you feel better about sorting through it like I'm happy to do all those things because back to no ulterior motive but to help you the best thing that you can create. And you know I do think there is a blend of some of the original thing we're talking about the research component of what a drama shirt does and how incredibly helpful that is for actors and directors and designer I mean to have that free flow of information and to be able to ask a question, and have somebody be able to say, I know where to find that piece of information, should it be useful. But it's also interesting because I read a lot of history plays as you know book of wills history play so there was times when the research part is the new play part you know where like, we need to figure out what the hell who was king in this exact year of this country at this moment and how can I make a joke about that or not. So it's interesting like how quickly you have you must have to kind of switch hats as you go along. And I think that's probably another thing that you know a lot of dramaturgs have to do and I think you know obviously like back to pros and cons some dramaturgs do that better than others. I actually enjoy that but I think you know as my my spouse says I have a bit of a squirrel brain. So, and not squirrel brain is in like side but like if I see a shiny object I'm over here so sometime and that actually having multiple things running around in my brain at the same time sounds it sounds really weird but it actually helps me focus. Interesting yeah. You know, so I don't, I'm very much that person who like can be watching something and then someone asked a question I don't know the answer but then I can like keep an ear out while also like looking for that thing and it, I don't know there's just been something strange about my brain that allows me to do. I'm actually weird or when I only have one thing to focus on. Which probably makes me a very strange human being. No, you sound like honestly you sound like a lady. I think we have to be able to be like, at least it reminds me of my mom brain of going, get the Lego fix the thing make the dinner, still thinking about my play and act to all the things somehow managed to settle into some arrangement. The only time I can have anything else going on in my head is when I'm reading that only thing happening in my head. That's great about it. It really doesn't make you zero. How do you work with actors and designers and kind of the other people we've talked about directors and we've talked about writers but how do you work with the other people. I love it. This is actually my, it's, you know, all of it's my favorite part, I should, I should not discriminate but I'm actually in the process of finishing up a book with some back to that scholarly part of my existence with Jesse Portillo who is a lighting designer about the intersections of dramaturgy and design. Oh, and right. It's, I'm excited. We just got to finish up some revisions then we'll hopefully be ready to go. My goal is to be done with that by the summer, but one of the things that I really actually enjoy is talking to designers and part of the reason why is because you know back to for creating a world. Everything in the world matters in terms of how like this the story is coming alive. And so I find myself always whether asked or not in design meetings because I want to hear. Oh yeah, how people are interpreting the text, especially if it's a new play, like how are people hearing this thing that I've been working, or like, you know, as a hearing like in their own visual mind, I this thing that I've been working on with this play right for, you know, and in our solitude for a while like how are people envisioning this world. What are the things people are picking what like kernels are people picking up on and running with versus one of the things that maybe they leave behind but not like, you know, in a huge way I want to know those things because, you know, I'm, you know, because usually people will give you clues as to what it is that they heard in the story. That really sparked their visual interest and I think that's part of it I'm very visually oriented as a human being like small known fact about Martin. I used to be and still am on occasion and visual artist. Oh, wonderful. So I think that just part of that was always interesting to me. How these worlds are coming alive visually and so I spend a lot of time doing two things as a dramaturg one talking to directors like one of my favorite directors to work with besides Chris Moore, is Ronald J. person based out of Chicago and he like we have conversations sometimes before he's even talked to any designers about the world of the play because and then he had tendency to like fold me into those conversations because he has ideas about things that he think and he's like, okay, and he's that he's such an amazingly dramaturg friendly director because he's just like, I want to make sure that what I'm saying is rooted in the text. And Chris is, you know, Chris Moore is very similar in that just want to be rooted in the text, same thing with Timothy Douglas that you're just really interested in doing work that's rooted in a text and to do that then means that there has to be some interaction with the dramaturgs and the designers because back to what is this world that the playwright wants to create and like, are there any, for example, gaps in that like is there is some weird is there some space between how like the text is being interpreted. Because these are also important things for a dramaturg to take back to a playwright and say, okay, yeah, there's a space here, and this is what this production is thinking that they're going to do with that, what do you think. Do we need to be do we need to be more specific do we need to clarify something about this world in order so that we don't go there, or do you like that openness. Yeah, that's such a critical question because it really is it feels like, and I think the great teams include the playwright and those design conversations early but sometimes the playwright doesn't quite know. I don't actually know I know what this part of it looks like but I don't know what that looks like, and being asked or shown. Again, you get this like, Oh, not that, whatever it is is not that. Like if we do that but then we lose the this or that you know, it just brings up all the questions which once again it seems like the dramaturg is kind of the carrier of possibility the carrier of questions. Exactly. The job is the question and not necessarily a weird way just now there, I think every text is full of possibilities and I just want to make sure we're mining all of them for the ones that make sense for the world we're trying to create. I love that. So, so for that's so fascinating. So, if you wanted to be a dramaturg, there was a baby Martin out in the world. What would you, what would you tell them to do to get their feet wet to try to, I don't know, right with the advice to them. What's so interesting is that I think there are so many different ways of approaching this thing called dramaturgies so I think maybe the best thing that I would suggest someone to do like if you're if you're college age, you know, or you're in college, you know, take a take a class of when it's because obviously like no better way to sort of start to understand what this world is. I think past that if you know you're out in the world and you're just trying to figure it out. Go find some of like, you know, who are the who are the dramaturgs you're working with. Or where, who are the dramaturgs that are saying things that make sense to you. Because, you know, unfortunately or fortunately depending on how you look at it dramaturgs are either super quiet or really loud. I will say one way if you're like how do I find a dramaturg that and I agree with them they often one of your jobs is to write those beautiful think pieces and articles and programs are on the websites to kind of dig deeper into the play for audience members because that's another person you work with as the audience, right, you know how do patrons and audience and viewers of this play who want to know more who want to know background who want to know context you want to know a little bit about the history they're going to be dramatized so you you do all that as well which means you got to be the right good writer. Right. Well, yes, yes, but reading those think pieces and going like ooh, that person is smart. Maybe they have an email address, right and that's exactly what I was going to say next is I mean really you know who you know if you happen to find that there's a particular. Just look at who's the dramaturg listed on playbills that shows that you really like and hopefully there is a dramaturg. I'm looking at people who don't hire dramaturgs I see you. But you know who's the dramaturg and then like just reach out because I think one of the things that you'd be surprised discover is that most dramaturgs are used to just not really having their praises song not having any attention. I find that in my life week. In general, the only time anyone ever actually really talks to me about like, you know anyone out of the blue shows up in my inbox I should say is if you know I'm associated with a show that they're upset with. But then the funny thing about it is that I've actually never had that happen it's always been shows that people are like, were you the dramaturg on this because there was no dramaturg listen and I know that you work with them sometimes I'm like, no, no, no, no, nothing to do with that. That's funny. Like, don't don't don't don't don't don't bring this to my doorstep. Right, exactly. It's just funny because I've actually had that happen it happens a lot less now that no longer in Utah, but I think like and you know they're there are other drama would get mad. But like, you know, there'd be some something and they're like, how did you let this happen. I had nothing to do with that what you talk about. And literally had nothing to do with that show. Like, just because I'm in town doesn't mean I'm the only person around. Have you been a literary manager or literary director as well. I have it's like, you know, it's been it's been a while I was the literary manager for the classical theater company which is a small theater company down in Houston that still exists. I did that for a couple of years, and that was fun. And what is that job kind of entail that's a lot of reading of plays, I imagine. There's also a lot of sort of administrative shenanigans to it, depending on where you work sometimes the literary manager is responsible for hiring outside dramaturgs. I think sometimes part of their job is to dramaturg things while also doing, you know, while also hiring other dramaturgs, they tend to do a lot more season planning than just a freelance drama. Even sometimes resident dramaturgs at a place so if there's a literary manager and a resident dramaturg usually that sort of administrative part of curating seasons there. Sometimes they run new play competitions a lot of times it's a lot of reading or figuring out the system by which plays get read. And, you know, there's usually a lot of connection between literary managers and education. So the sort of administrative part of it is like where the places of intersection between education at a theater and literary management. Also a lot of literary managers deal with and work closely with development folk, etc. And not that dramaturgs don't do this too because a lot of it also just depends on structure like I've, you know, like a court the resident dramaturg does a lot of the same functions that you would assign to the literary manager they kind of straddle both worlds. So it really just depends on the place but like when I was at classical theater company my job is really to have conversations with the managing director and artistic director about what the next season was. What's the next slide. And I heard from, you know, was Julie Duvener who basically was saying that I mean, dramaturgs know each other and literary managers know each other so for playwrights out there. Even if even if one theater says no thank you we loved this play but we can't do it. Oftentimes that mean that there's a literary manager out there that has already emailed it to five of her or his colleagues to say you should read this we couldn't find a place for it but I love this but you know, the idea of the advocates that you may not even know you have as a playwright. And one of the things that I would also just advocate for playwrights to say it's like let's say, you know, you submitted in a to a to a theater in a theater like yeah, love this but not not now, not not not here right now. You know, feel free to ask the question do you know a place that might be interested like passing it on or like, you know, do you mind helping like me make a connection with that other dramaturg that other literary manager. Like if a play is really speaks to a dramaturg I don't know any dramaturg that's like okay I love this thing even though we can't program it here I'm just gonna pretend like it doesn't exist like we want plays to be done. Yeah. And in the end like I have, you know, numerous times for numerous playwrights that I've worked with said okay like, I like, you know, especially since I'm not attached to a theater, like a lot of times I will rethink some like okay here the places that I think might be really interested in and then I'm always happy to do an intro. Because what do I have to lose if it's a play that I like like what's the worst that can happen they get produced somewhere sounds like sounds pretty good to me. It's like a win and a win and another win. Exactly. That's awesome. We're closing in on our hour so. Oh my god. So I don't know if there is there any other thing that you want to talk about or what you would say to the wide world. I mean, I feel like this doesn't this needs to be said. And I'm looking forward to the day when it doesn't need to be said but like hire a dramaturg. But your dramaturg obviously like you should bet a dramaturg like you would any other artistic collaborator. But if you really if you if you bet your dramaturgs get yourself a good one that's good for you and for like the thing you're trying to do I can promise you will never regret it. Yeah, like amazing amazing relationships with playwrights that I've worked with in the past including you. I just think those are some of the most amazing artistic collaborations that you can find out there and they're rewarding. And they are just brilliant so like always try to search them out like don't be don't be shy don't be shy don't be for me too. I mean I've worked with in the past when I'm stuck on a thing. I can reach out to them and say I am stuck on this thing. I've been told anybody even written this yet but would you. Can I throw you 100 bucks or some coffee or. Yeah, talk about it. And that's the thing that dramaturgs really do actually like to do we'd love to we'd love to come back to people that we've worked with before in the past and like continue to just see what they're what they're up to and what they're doing. So yeah so like always feel free like obviously like if you're busy you're busy but right but like if you can find find a dramaturg that really speaks to your aesthetic. Find one that really seems to understand the soul of the thing that that you're trying to write. And then like don't be afraid to reach out don't be afraid to ask for recommendations like yeah you know I think a lot of my work has been a recommendation word of mouth and that's great and that's fine. I feel like that means I'm doing something right if people are still like wanting to actually say my name in a positive way once that's done with me. But you know just don't be afraid of dramaturgs are really excited and like I said if if we're worth our salt we are just there to help. You were like theater's biggest fan, like you were just always the people I want to be around. It's always weird to me people like I don't know about work with a drama. Why do you not know like we love the best friend you haven't met yet. Cookies. Yes. Oh yes and some of them make cookies. So it's great. Well you're the first person I thought of when I thought we need a dramaturg to the world that dramaturgy so thank you for all that you do and I will say that my very highest commitment for a director and actor designer is to say that they have a dramaturgical mind. So dramaturgs are your people dramaturgs are all of our people if you believe in new plays if you believe in great storytelling. You love dramaturgs already. Exactly. And if you can think about donating to literary managers and dramaturgs America. Donate to your local theater your artists the artists groups that you know obviously I can't say it enough how valuable those organizations are even though they can't be producing in the same way now but we need to throw them support. And all the other organizations that are taking care of the artists not just the institutions so thanks for all of that and thank you so much Martin you're the greatest. Thank you. And real hugs one day when they're very very soon very soon. All right thank you again and I'm I'll go through the comments and see if there's anything I can offer and maybe I'll wrote Martin and if there's a. Yeah, I'm very happy to answer any questions and you know people can feel free to find me on on Twitter like at martin key or through the MD website or never like I'm happy to answer question. Yeah, all right thank you and thank you to how around for. Yes, thank you testing this and thanks everybody.