 Okay, everyone, here we go. My name is Andrew Champagne. I'm the host of the Burlington Democrats live at 525. We're running a few minutes late, my apologies. Busy day for everyone. I would like to thank Megan and Daniel and Kevin and Jordan and Laura and all the staff of Channel 17 for their kindness in producing the show and allowing me to host it. We just changed over from a half hour to 45 minutes and I'm going to need every bit of it from my special guest here today, former producer of this show, former state representative, state senator involved in government for over 40 years, my friend Judy Stephanie Hearn. Good afternoon, everybody, and I hope that you have all enjoyed a brilliant sunshine that we were able to enjoy today and hopefully tomorrow bring more of the same. Thanks, Andrew. Okay, now, okay, full disclosure, Judy, about, I don't know, five years ago, I think, maybe five or six, she was the one that asked me to come on to the show and I think we talked about voting and she had produced the show for a while and so I took it over from her and I appreciate it. Before we get into your career, I would just, I would be remiss if I didn't do a couple things. First of all, everyone, we all need your help to get vaccinated. Every one of you, I ask you from the bottom of my heart, it's funny, I just got the booster shot in this building, 294 North Manuski Avenue where we are, so I'd like to thank the landlord and all the kind people that provided that booster shot and there's also shots being given at community health and all over Burlington and Shinton County and they're absolutely free, a lot of them are walk-in. Now I was talking to Speaker Jill Kroinski and she suggested if anyone needs some help with questions about the virus or some questions about social services because we've been in a COVID type crisis for 22 months now and the government has a lot of programs to aid and assist people and she suggested, you can go online, sure, but if you're not comfortable with that, she suggested you just call 211, that's the state number to give help and guidance. So I'm asking you, I'm asking everyone who's watching this show, please get the vaccine. It's painless, sure, maybe you're a little tired the next day, but the side effects are few and we really cannot move forward as a country until we get this handled. We're stuck. We have about 20% of people that just don't know or are confused about the virus. So okay, thanks again to 294 North Winooski Avenue, please get vaccinated. Okay, a couple other things we're going to get to Judy. We are hoping to do a full hour on Senator Leahy's career, 45 minutes. That's coming up, but about three weeks ago he announced from Montpelier that he's not going to run again. And I would just like to thank Senator Leahy, Mrs. Leahy, John Tracy, Carolyn Dwyer, John Goudreau, J.P. Dowd, all the legions of people that have worked for him, Ed Pagano, Luke Albee. I can go on and on. And I've been fortunate enough to work on Senator Leahy's campaigns a couple times and meet him and speak with him and he's really a wonderful person. And we're going to miss him. I'd like to thank him. We also have some news with Congressman Welch running for that seat. And I would like, I'm going to endorse him on the air today. That's how proud I am of him. I got a Christmas card from a holiday card from him yesterday. I think he's fantastic. I'd like to say hello to his staff and Margaret, his wife and Peter and all the great crew in Burlington. I think Congressman Welch is fantastic. He's been in this building on TV here many times. So very quickly, the bond issues were a bit of a mixed bag last Tuesday. You can, why don't you jump in on this? We can talk about that. One passed about the electric grid, which I actually voted for both. So and then, and then the improvements, including improvements to Memorial Auditorium didn't make it. And unfortunately, that bond had to be a two-thirds vote. You knew that, right? It's a general obligation bond, pledging the full faith and credit of the city and requires a two-third vote. Whereas the Burlington Electric bond is called a revenue bond, which is the principle is paid back from the revenue BED generates. And so that only required a majority. So the risk is considered so great that they feel that it's got a pass. Two-thirds is very tough, Judy, for anything. It is, but on a lot of money bills, certainly in states and localities throughout the country. When you're pledging the full faith and credit of a municipality, there's a higher threshold. Now, I'm on the Burlington Board of Tax Appeals, and we just heard several hundred hearings. And I have to be honest, I think there might be a little bit of tax fatigue here that on this, I think people are feeling a little stressed. The assessment was the first one since 2007, so obviously it went up quite a bit. And so I supported the second. I supported the second one. I particularly wanted to save Memorial Auditorium, where I've worked many, many, many times and I've gone to so many concerts. But unfortunately, unless we can come up with some kind of program with federal government, I think Memorial might be done. What's your thoughts on that? I don't know enough about it to comment, other than to say the bond issue itself. I live in the New North End of Burlington, where I have lived for a long time and represented the New North End in the Vermont Legislature and the House. And what I was hearing was there was a lot of anger over the repraisal coupled with a drumbeat of very positive news of how much money we were getting from the federal government, both for COVID relief as well as the infrastructure dollars. And many people said to me, if we're getting so much money, why do we need to do even more here in Burlington after we just had our taxes go up so substantially? So those were the two issues that I was hearing in the New North End. Right. They can make a break in election up there. They the two wards up there, four and seven are big, big wards. And the percentage of turnout is always extraordinary. You know, I forgot to thank President Biden for all his good work in getting this stimulus and getting these packages through. And I think sometimes the president gets, you know, with this 24 hour news cycle, it's a tough situation. And I just think that President Biden is doing an excellent job. And also, you know, I didn't I didn't I always this is a democratic show. So we're always plugging Dems. But I need to thanks Senator Sanders for his unbelievable work on the on the budget committee getting this stuff through. And he might be doing the most. He might he he is he's just great at the at the details. And so Senator Sanders and his family would like to say hello to you. And thank you so much. There's a there's a man who never forgets Burlington, just like you, Judy. OK, so we're here with Judy Stephanie Herne, as I said, former producer of the show. And I believe I guess the story starts now. We were talking off air. You grew up in Queens in New York City. I did. Right. The wonderful borough of Queens. And you lived in order to make this kind of funny. You lived near the Trumps. You lived in Jamaica, a mile or so. Yep. And that's funny. Now, what now? Where did you where did you go to school? What tell us how you got to Burlington? My ex-husband was offered a position at the University of Vermont out of graduate school. And we moved to Burlington. Now, where did you go to school? I went to school at Lemoine College in Syracuse, New York. Oh, yeah. They beat Syracuse in the basketball game a couple of years ago. I remember that unbelievable upset. So you are a division, too. Right. To beat the Orange men is something. So you're so you're you move up here with your husband. He was a teacher at UVM. And now where were you first living in Burlington? And what year was that? We lived at University Heights. Oh, you were three months and then bought our home in the New North End. Keith Pillsbury's lived in University Heights for about 45 years, a friend of mine. Oh, not that University Heights. No, this was rental housing that was built after World War two for the house. The G.I.s as they were coming back after their service to our nation. And then it was turned over to the university and the university used it for housing for faculty and staff. OK, OK. So you're you're you're new to Vermont. You get involved with the Democratic Committee. You know, you're quickly active. How did that go? No, I was asked to run for the Burlington School Board in 1974. OK. And I had never declared myself one way or the other as a Democrat, Republican or as an independent. And I when I was asked to run, it was at a time when school board elections were done along a party line. So the Republicans are on a candidate, the Democrats are on a candidate and anybody could run as an independent as well. And I was asked to run for the Burlington School Board. And I knew well enough. I'd only been in the city six years or so. I had filed in kindergarten, one third grade and one in fourth grade that I was probably the hundredth person that they asked to run. And I was the first warm body who said that would be interesting. My kid's education is really important to me. And so I was asked to run. But before I did commit, I called a faculty wife, my husband. I'm taught in the English department. And at the time, one of his colleagues, wife was executive director of the Democratic Party. And what was her name? Henry was Ruth Pope. OK. She was also a state representative. Is that right, Senator? No. OK. I've seen that name in some old documents. So OK. So I called her for a very specific question. I do not commit to voting a straight Democratic ticket ever. A straight anything ticket. I mean, can I run if I know that there will come a time at some point where a Republican will be running against a Democrat? And for whatever reason, I find the Republican candidate preferable. And she gave me very good advice. And like many of you, as I progressed throughout my life, I've benefited from the advice and suggestions of others and and tried to provide the same type of encouragement to those coming afterwards. But I asked her and she said, unless it's a matter of faith or morals, where whoever the Democrat would happen through morals, I like that was, you know, certainly not a person you would encourage anybody to vote for. All you need to do is just say when asked, I send out the candidates of my party. You don't name any specific candidates. You don't have to work for them. You don't have to have to go out and knock on doors and hand out pamphlets and send out letters. You just respond, I support the candidates of my party. And at the time, I thought it was really good advice. It's and I ran. It's truthful. So again, to all the people who are on the school board then and now, it's really a thankless job. If everything goes well, then ho hum. If there's a problem, my God. Also the pay on, we're just having a little technical difficulty, yes? Oh, the microphone? Yeah, it's rubbing on. My shirt or hers? Okay. So I'm going to keep talking while we fix the microphone. Thank you, Daniel. The school board also's pay is a big fat zero. And so in 1974, you get elected. So then we come to 1976. Well, no, I don't get elected. I lose. Well, how close? It was actually, I think it was 80 votes. It was, you know, relatively. I'm going to, I'm going to. Just close enough. I'm going to speak and I'm going to keep talking. And Daniel's going to fix the mic. Beauty, Slapel. Okay. So, so here we are. You run your first race and you don't win. Um, that, that must have been a little discouraging, but your career was young enough and unwise enough to think that, and I was told by many, many people that I had come much closer than anybody would have thought against. Am I good? Okay. Yeah, you're good. Okay. We got, we've, I just, again, thanks, thanks to the crew here today, and we appreciate them coming. So now how close, how many votes was it? I cannot, I can honestly not remember. I think it was 80 votes, maybe a little bit more. And it was all a board for, which was at that time, everything north of Burlington High School. Okay. So it was a lot of votes and the person who won was a very prominent, um, Burlington attorney from a very prominent, um, family, um, really good guy. He made an outstanding school commissioner and, um, in 1976, a legislative seat opened and several people approached me to run. Okay. And I did. Now, okay, so I'm trying to put things in historical context with 76. By then, unbelievably enough, there had never been a Democratic governor or senator or congressman from Vermont. Is that correct? I believe till. There had been a governor. Governor Phil Hoff was elected in 1962. And again, in 1972, Tom Salmon from Rockingham was elected governor. And Bellows Falls, yeah. So Governor Salmon runs for, we have this, unfortunately, we still have the two year term in, in Vermont for governor, which I don't support. I'd like a four year, 48 of the states have four year and only New Hampshire and Vermont have the two. So anyway, um, Tom Salmon, who's a popular governor, moderate, wins in 76, Senator Leahy had gone to Washington in that fabled class of 1974, the Watergate class. We just stepped back. Yeah, sure. Um, in 74 was the Watergate class. It was when Gerald Ford became president, a lot of very good government processes were put in place post Watergate. And Patrick Leahy ran for the Senate. And surprising, most political pundits was elected. Um, the U.S. Senator, Senator Aiken decided he wasn't going to run. Senator Aiken didn't run. And a man by the name of Dick Mallory, who had served in the, was serving in the U.S. House, announced his candidacy and it was expected that he would just slide into the Senate seat. And Senator Leahy surprised him and, uh, all of us with great joy and was elected in 1976, um, former governor Salmon or, yeah, he was still governor when he ran. His term expired in 76. He ran, um, for the Senate as well. And he was, um, he was beaten by Robert Stafford, who was a sitting member of the House and he slotted into the Senate seat in 1976. So Senator Stafford, who's gone now and is a Republican, he was like Attorney General, Lieutenant Governor, Governor, Congressman, Senator, he, he was kind of a, he was a moderate Republican. He was, um, a key, key supporter and mover of the American with Disabilities Act. Oh, the ADA. He was, um, a key supporter and mover of, of major environmental legislation. So he has, um, a very, um, strong reputation in leading Vermont in the Senate on environmental issues and issues around people with disabilities. And I forgot to say, he was also in the state legislature. He, he really, he, yeah, those kind of, those kind of Republicans seem like they're gone, Judy. Um, when I was first in the House within a year or two of being in the House, um, I remember saying to a colleague who was a Republican, just in passing, I said, you know, you're really an ethnic Republican. Okay. He said, what do you mean by that? I said, well, you were a Republican because your family were Republicans and their family before them. And it's just what you did. When, um, I called Ruth Poger, whom I mentioned earlier about supporting Democrats, um, at the time, um, Democrats were primarily, um, the children of Roosevelt Democrats. Right. They tended to be in Vermont, um, Irish American, Italian American, French Canadian American and the old Yankee classes in the more, more rural areas, um, tended to be Republican. Right. And for years, the, um, contests, um, among people like Bob Stafford, George Aiken, um, Ernest Gibson were all internal primary. So the election was, if, if you could get through the Republican primary, you were looking really good. You were looking good. And Phil Hoff broke that. Governor, oh, he was such an amazing man. The Democratic Party has a Curtis Hoff awards, and I got to meet him and, and, and you knew him. He, he, he, that great, he was one of the greatest or the greatest generation. He, he, he was, he, he listened to people. They, what did they call him, the king of Winooski or something, right? Because I think Winooski put him over the top that night. Winooski put him over the top on that night in, uh, November of 62. Now, it wasn't until 1992 where Vermont first voted Democrat for president. I believe. So in 1976, now tell us about your campaign. It's your first, it's my first serious campaign for legislature. Well, it was my second serious campaign. Right, okay. But one, I hoped I'd win this, this second time around. Okay. And I did what, what people did then. You knocked, you went door to door and knocked on doors. You introduced yourself, um, asked people what their concerns were and asked for their vote. And I was given some very good advice about how to campaign by people who were not pleased that I was the candidate. Okay. Because at the time, Burlington was very transitional. Okay. And that transition became fully realized in 1981 when Bernie Sanders was elected the mayor of Burlington. But prior to that, um, and the issue around running as a Democrat versus as anything else was that in Burlington, Democrats of Irish, Italian, French, Canadian heritage ran the city. And they were more conservative. They were more conservative on social issues. Yellow dog, Republicans. Then in fact, um, the Republicans were, they were much, the Republicans were more liberal on social issues. Oh, wow. But they were conservative on fiscal issues. The Democrats were labor Democrats. Yes. So get out the vote, Democrats. They, you know, did not see me at the time as being in my young thirties as the person who should be representing them. But they weren't sure about anybody else at that point. And so, um, I ran, they helped me. And I had a map of my legislative district. Yeah. So where, now what, what, so where was that? New North end, basically? It was in the New North end on the west side, um, from... What we call Ward 4. No, from the shopping center north on the west side. And at the time on the east side from Gas Court north. Okay. So on both sides of the avenue. So it was a far north end. Right. Those, those, those wards are... I tell people if you live on the left side of the avenue now, you vote one place and if you vote on the right, you vote on another. Is that right? The senior center and then St. Mark's church. No. Those are the basic things. Okay. They're funny carved out, but that's the basic thing. But the legislative districts are different than the Ward. Okay. So that night, I was 13 years old. I remember and I had gone to see Jimmy Carter at a rally and my, my parents were very involved in democratic. They were big time Democrats. They loved it. And so I remember, I don't know if I stayed up, but my mother stayed up very, very late. And then the race... President Ford, a good man, got saddled with the whole Nixon thing. A tough economy. He pardoned the president, which probably in retrospect was the thing to do. And, and Jimmy Carter was once in a generation candidate, governor, one-term governor of, of, of Georgia and a state senator. And he just ran like, he ran, he was an amazing, God bless him. He's 97 years old. He spoke at my college commencement, but he was an, he was quite a man. Did he come to Vermont that year? All he came to Vermont and I had the pleasure of meeting him. In the late Senator Ed Granite's living room. Oh wow. Along with a lot of other peoples. And that evening, he spent the night, as was part of his campaigning, at people, at people's homes rather than hotels. And he stayed at the home of the late Senator Esther Surrell. Oh, that was on Hickok, on Hickok Place. On Hickok Place. And he would carry his own bags and he, Jimmy Carter is always true to himself. And he, an amazing man. So that night, now who, your Republican opponent, how tough were they? Two member district. Okay. And one, two seats. One was I would say definitely tough. And the other, not so tough, but there was also an incumbent Democrat running too. Okay. So, and with all of the discussion now about redistricting the legislative seats, both in the house and the redistricting the Senate districts, the discussion is around single member legislative districts. And where that will end up, the legislature will decide this year. There's 44 two seat districts as we speak. Right now, the legislative district I represented has changed slightly, but it's still primarily the far north end of Burlington. Okay. And that was at the time as well, so. So is that a single seat now? No. Okay. It's never been a single seat. Now, you know, that's another topic for another 45 minutes, the reapportionment in that whole process. So did you, that day, when you're at the polls, just anyone who's ever run or worked at the polls, you get up at the crack of dawn to put up your signs and you stand at the polls all day. It wasn't like that. Really? So it's changed. Okay. You know, you do tend to spend time at the polls, but there wasn't this incredible flourish of overnight signs type of thing. So people were there and people represented you on and off. I had three school-aged children. I had a son in kindergarten, a daughter in third grade and a son in fourth grade. So I was up getting them to school that morning. So did you think you were going to win that day? I have a sense, but you know, it was a sense and you just hope your voters are out and you've identified them and people try to get them out. And I'm sure many of, certainly your older viewers, remember getting those phone calls from a friend or a neighbor saying, we've noticed you haven't voted yet. A fact checker. Do you need a ride to the polls? Right. And I pick you up type of thing. Now from what I gather, it's all done by robo-calls. So, okay, there was no early balloting. There was. There was a fewer sick. Okay, but I believe you had a doctor's note. Yeah, I have a note. There was no same-day registration. You know, I've said on this show many times that Vermont's voting laws, I've looked at all 15, I think they're the best. So moving forward, that was a heck of a night. President Carter wins. I remember how happy my mother and father were. And so you're off to the legislature. So talk about that. You've got to get up the crack of dawn, get your kids up, fed, go to school, and then sometimes those committee meetings would start at 8 a.m., is that correct? Not then. Okay. By and large on occasion. Yeah. But you're only on one committee. Okay. And so- The speaker picks that for you. The speaker makes the assignments with the advice and encouragement of the party leaders. Right. So the speaker made the assignment for me, and I was placed on the judiciary committee. Oh, that's a nice committee, yeah. Which I enjoyed very, very much. And I had, I mean, as I said earlier, so much to learn. And I had a friend who had served in the legislature actually representing the New North and a number of years before that. And he gave me two bits of advice. And I'm young and I'm new, and I know I know nothing. And he said to me, two bits of advice. Number one, never sit with your friends. And number two, within the first month of, you know, arriving in Montpelier, memorize the name and face of every member of the House and then do the same for the Senate. So I would sit during boring housekeeping types of discussions in the House and I would pick a section and I would see, I would go from, you know, seat 141 to seat 148. 150 people. 150 people. And I'd sit there and I'd say, Joe Jones, Mary Smith. Rutland, from Bennington, right? And I did. I thought that was very good advice. However, the best piece of advice he gave me, and I have over the years given to others who've asked me if I had any advice about the legislature, was never sit with your friends. And his reasoning was that you know your friends and you know who you're going to be hanging out with. It all sorts itself out. What you don't know is all of those other folks, and he said to me, he was very honest about it. He said, let me be really clear. You're a young woman with a family from Burlington and somebody living in Coventry or Danville or Reed's borough is going to look upon you as such an alien creature. You need to break down those walls. And so for the first couple of months, I would get my tray and I'd look around for a table with an empty seat with people whom I didn't know. Republicans, probably. Primarily, Republicans. You know, kind of took a deep breath and went over and introduced myself. I'm Judy. Yeah. And I didn't know the term at the time. I since learned it. But had I known it, I would have used it. And I'm sure many of your viewers have heard the term. You know, I'm from Chittenden County. It's really close to Vermont. Burlington is even more so. I can't stand that. And so by a couple of months, I pretty much knew, have met, I shouldn't say I knew them. I had met and made the acquaintance of every member of the house. And at the time, I was elected a number of young women were elected, primarily Democratic, but there were a couple of Republican women as well. And prior to my election, Madeline Cunan had been elected in 1972, along with a woman named Judy Rosenstreich, who has been active in the Burlington Democrats for years. She was elected then as Republican. Right. And they both had families, but there was not a critical mass. And the year I was elected, this kind of post-watergate, opening up this, and remember, this is within a decade, of both the Vietnam protests, the war protests, as well as the rise of the women's movement. Now, okay, a lot of the Republicans were retired farmers. Isn't that correct? Many of them were. Yeah. Or shopkeepers or bankers. Right. So. And that greatest generation was in full force then. So a lot of these, a lot of the men had come from the World War II and were Republicans. And, you know, until 1965, I don't want to get off on a tangent. But for example, you, if you lived in Danville, you had one rep, and you lived in Burlington, you had one. And Governor Hoff was kind of responsible for changing that. Is that correct? Well, it was also a federal amendment, one person, one vote. Right. And so. That must have stirred up the pot. Well, it certainly did. And when I was first elected, there were any number of people serving in the legislature who had served in a pre-1965 legislature representing their town. Governor Hoff was the representative from Burlington prior to reapportionment. So there's always a rep that has stayed for 15, 18, 20 terms. So you're elected in 1976. There's a chance that a couple of those reps were in the state house in the 1930s and the 1940s. I don't remember that being the case. Okay. Certainly the 1950s. Yo, yeah. Oh, yeah. Certainly the 1950s. But when I was elected, as I said, there were a number of young women, younger women. There were women in the legislature, certainly one when I got there, but they tended to be older. Yeah. And we were the young women. And there were, let me share, two funny anecdotes. Sure. First was, it wasn't funny at the time, but I was so flustered. It is in retrospect because it really shows the difference that has taken place societally and culturally when I was in the ladies room at one point and one of the wives of one of the male legislators came into the ladies room as well. And at that time, a significant number of wives came to Montpelier with their husbands for the week and they stayed in a hotel where they rented an apartment. And this woman came in and I was just finishing up combing my hair and she turned to me and she said, don't you feel guilty about leaving your children at home? Geez, I'm cruel. And I looked at her and I said, no, I don't. And I walked out. And so... You had a lot on your plate then. So there was a lot, and it wasn't just me, it was all of them. These many of them. Madeleine too, yeah. Yes, Madeleine had become chair of the Appropriations Committee, the first woman to do so. So because we don't have that much time, I could talk with you for two hours on this stuff. So Governor Cunin is elected and we'd like, I don't know if she sees the show, but she might, she's out in Shelburne. We'd like to say hello to her. Always hello to her. You're the best. There's a Democrat for you. She is elected governor. And as you told me as we were speaking, you were brought along as senior staff. So did you, did you resign your house seat? Did you not run? Did you unfortunately lose? I resigned my house seat in 1983. Okay. To run against the one-term mayor of Burlington at that point, Bernie Sanders. Now, so Senator Sanders' first term had been very tough because he won a very close election, but the Democrats, I hate to say this, they didn't realize we're all in it together. They gave him a very rough time, didn't they? Everybody gave him a rough time. Okay. And he gave back well, too. Yeah. Now, so, now would you, you would debate Bernie or go to, you would go to events when he was there and how was that? We were all invited and there was also a Republican candidate, so it was a three-way race. And Bernie, now, how was the campaigning against him? Did you get along with him? Did, was it, was it, you're a congenial person, so I know it was congenial. Yes, you are, Judy. Was it, did the campaign, I mean, I remember hearing some crazy stories about, there was some people that were so anti-Bernie that it was pretty crazy. What was your platform? Were you just the alternatives to Bernie, or did you come, did you come in with a complete platform? It wasn't a complete platform, but it was primarily a different way of doing business. Okay. Tended to agree on the issues themselves, but a different way of making that policy happen. He was very brash at that time. He was young and he was, he was quite brash. He had a lot and he still does have a lot of energy. Yep. And we would be at forums and things and we would, you know, talk about the issues and what our, what our proposals were for the future, for Burlington, et cetera, et cetera. And ironically, a year or two after he was elected, for the second term, there was a proposal to build a hotel on the waterfront. Oh, wow. That doesn't sound good. And at the time, the oddest coalition of Democrats, very, very left progressives fought the hotel and the development of the waterfront down near the ferry dock. And it was Republicans along wanted it and they supported Bernie. And it was quite a mishmash. And also the bike path at that time, Rick Sharp, Bernie, I know Governor Dean was involved in the bike path. Governor Dean was Rick Sharp, activist still. Still an activist, I mean. In Milton. Yep. And they started the cleanup and then there was a major suit having to do with the bike path and access to the bike path and private land versus public land. And I want to give a shout out to a man, the late Joe Handy, who was a major insurance agent in Burlington and a very, very active Republican and shared the. From the Handy family. From one of the Handy families, their cousins and things. Sure. But he lived in the new North End and he was a Republican chairman out there. And I certainly never assumed he ever voted for me. There would be no reason for him to. But in 1981 or 82, he was and became very active in preserving and building the bike path. Hey, here's a shout out to a boy, the Handys. They've been around. They've they've been in Burlington for a hundred years. I was just talking to Tony Handy, a friend of mine. And they've added a lot to Burlington. And so. So Joe Handy came down and there was a lot of controversy around the bill and the legislature because. Oh, they had to approve it. There were there. No, there were people suing the state. Okay. The city and it's rare that a legislature interferes in a lawsuit. Right. And we did. And and Joe Handy to me is really the father of it all. He pressured, pressured the Republican Senate at the time to support it. Now, okay. So Bernie wins the election. You resigned your seat and Governor Cunin calls you and asked you to come aboard to her staff. I did some consulting for a while. And then in 1984 and 1986, Governor Cunin ran and won for the first time in 1984. She had run two years prior to that. And then in 1986, she asked me to join her staff. So all of a sudden and for people who don't know Vermont, for example, I used to work in Connecticut and politics in the state house, for example, every legislator has like an aide, a staff person. So the governor staff at that time was very bare bones. They were, you were working not in the governor's ceremonial office, but you were working in the fifth floor. We were working in both offices. Okay. Legislators did not then nor today do they have personal staff in Vermont. Right. There are, there's a kind of a pool of staff and legislators go to those people in the pool to ask for advice, ask them to draft legislation, etc. But they don't have personal staff. So the governor's senior staff numbered about 10 or 11, as well as agency secretaries and commissioners of various state departments. Now, did you find working more on the policy end was more interesting for you than the electoral stuff? Or, you know, you're kind of implementing policy there. Well, yes and no. I was the governor's legislative liaison. Right. So I worked with members of the legislature to promote the governor's agenda. You were at the state house every day, weren't you? I was when the legislature was in session. I was at the state house every day. Yeah. And the governor was there many days as well in her ceremony. The ceremony, let's talk about the ceremony office for people who don't know. Now, I believe that every Tuesday the governor still goes over there. And I believe you can make an appointment to see him. Let's talk about the ceremonial office because the office where they do the business is down the street by the, by the pavilion. Is that right? The fifth floor. That's the major, the major offices are on the fifth floor of the pavilion. Right. And so the governor's ceremonial office has been there forever. And what, what we, I do believe we need in, in Vermont is what we have in Connecticut. We need a legislative office building because I think the state house is just too old and small to really do the business of the people these days. What do you think? Not, it will never be torn down. But for example, in Connecticut, they have underground and you can take a, a walk through and go to the, where the offices are. So you can be in the Capitol and not go outside to go where the offices are. It's, it's, it's interesting. There are plans that are being floated as we speak about building an addition to the state house. I'm not sure what the configuration of the addition would or wouldn't be, but they certainly have spoken about things like public space, like the cafeteria. Oh, the, the committee rooms are tiny. And the committee rooms are small. And I think that, let me just explain perhaps why. Vermont was the best, Ron had the best preserved state house in the country. And they underwent major restoration. As did the pavilion. The 1980s. And the pavilion was not, didn't carry the historic significance of the state house, obviously. And what they found when they did the restoration was incredible. Things in the dome of the state house, the big golden dome, there were light fixtures from the 1880s and they're in the 1850s. They just put everything in storage. And the one thing that they had done, which turned out to be so effective in preserving everything was during the, there was a major energy crisis in the seven. Right. They put up asbestos or some type of ceiling tiles to lower the ceilings. So the air wasn't going up and the heat wasn't going up. And so they still had perfectly restored ceilings and things of that nature. Did you ever get to go up there? Yes, I did. Wow. So you're working on Governor, I'm not sure how much time we have. I'm guessing about 10 minutes or so. So you're working on Governor Keenan's staff. And then, you know, like on a resume, tell me about the Senate, state Senate seat opening. Did someone retire or not run? Somebody retired. Someone retired. And Governor Dean appointed me to build the house. Oh, wow. Now, Governor Dean, there's a good Burlington Democrat. He's been in this building many, many times. Five-term governor, he was an excellent governor. He and Madeline were both excellent governors. They really cared. They worked hard, honest people. Now, tell me about the Senate. So you go from 150 people to 30. And so at that time, what did you think? Did you think you were able to get more accomplished in the House or the Senate? Probably not an accurate question. My last three years in the House, I served as the House Democratic Leader, the Minority Leader. So the whip or just the leader, the whip was my assistant. So what came to the floor for the Democrats you were responsible for? No, Vermont doesn't work that way. Okay. Then what comes to the floor, and I think it's probably still true, is what the Speaker determines should go through the floor. How was your relationship with the Speaker? It was a Republican Speaker. Oh, wow. So I had served with on the judiciary committee when I was first elected, and my relationship was fine. And I believe I was the first Democratic woman to serve as a floor leader in the House. Consuelo Bailey was able to serve in the 50s. She was Lieutenant Governor too, is that correct? Lieutenant Governor, and prior to that, she was Speaker of the House. So Consuelo Northrup Bailey. So you're in the Senate and you're there till, so what year did Governor Dean appoint you? 1993. So you're home one day and you get a call from Governor Dean? You want to come down and talk? No, the vacancy occurred and any number of people expressed interest. And the way in which vacancies are filled for unexpired legislative seats, whether it's the House or the Senate, is traditionally the Governor will send a letter to the chairperson of the committee in which that person resides. So if it's the state Senate, and today it's all of Chitton County, if it's the legislative district, it's the Democratic members of that legislative district. And so I was asked to run and gave it consideration and did. And at a county caucus, I was nominated along with two other people because the Governor requests that three names be sent. Right. Because the Governor makes the choice, no matter who you send, it still and always will be the Governor's choice. And I was one of the three, I was the top vote getter and was sent to Governor Dean and he called me and I take it back. We interviewed, he interviewed all three candidates. So you went down to the fifth floor again? No, he came to, we did in Burlington at the State Office building. Wow. And so you get to call your back in the Senate. And you served there for, did you run again? I did and I lost. Oh, geez. Joe Barry, who was a very prominent... Radio guy, right? Radio and Vermont Public Television had retired and he decided to run in. He was a fine senator. He was one of those people, like Tom Mesmer, everyone knows that guy. That's true. Yeah. And he just retired? Really? He did. He retired last week. How old is he? I have no idea. Wow. He was on WDEV, is that right? Tom Mesmer. Oh, Tom, I thought you were talking about Joe Barry. I was like, wow, he must be 100 years old. Oh, no, I thought you meant Tom Mesmer. Tom Mesmer, what a good guy. The thing about him, when you talk to him and on the air, it's the same guy. I mean, maybe that's the secret of his success. We are getting down here. I don't know how much time we have. Do you have any idea? I don't, but I think if you looked at the booth, somebody might give you a sense. I again like to thank our crew. They've been very helpful. The time has really flown by. We're just trying to figure out how much time we have left so I can wrap up. I think I'd be remiss. We've gone deep, deep into nostalgia. Jimmy Carter, the 70s, Queens. I think I'd be remiss if I didn't talk to you about the future. Now, as someone who's known you, I sense that you're an optimist. I hope you're an optimist. I am an optimist. I'm a half full glass kind of person. Where do you see, okay, we have so many, we have some new candidates coming up now. Talk about President Biden. I worked hard to elect him. I was a delegate for him. The convention wasn't held, but I think he's excellent. And I'm trying to help him as much as I can. I'm very worried about the midterm elections. I have to be honest with you. I think history has shown that by and large, the party for which the president belongs is beaten at the midterm elections. It's happened with most of our most recent presidents. I think that this year there may well be changes in that. I think as we hear about the things that happened on January 6th and prior to January 6th, the new information that is coming out from the people who are actively involved in the January 6th things, along with an economy which I believe will be by next summer thriving and growing. I think inflation will be relatively under control. And if the economy is good, I think the midterm elections. And we're not at war for the first time in 20 years. We're not in war. Well, we have about a minute left. I would like to thank you. You got me into this racket, and you're a great guest. And if I'm ever, if I'm in Hawaii or Paris or something, and I need a substitute host, would you come and do it? What that you're going to say, will you come to Hawaii or Paris with me? I don't think anyone's going anywhere right now. I, we can't thank Channel 17. They've been so kind. They expanded our program from 30 to 45 minutes. They're always so glad to see us. Thanks, Megan, for the snacks. I want to wish everyone a happy holiday. Again, if you have questions about COVID or anything about any government programs, 2-1-1 is a good place to call. Now, if anyone has also questions about the vaccine or if they need to register to vote, I'll tell you what, if you call me, I'll go with you to the vaccine. It's so, so easy. Help me out here in the last 30 seconds, about what we can do to get more people vaccinated. I think having this conversation, I consider the show a conversation. What can we do about this? I think we can do as we've been doing, is just encourage our family, our friends, not with guilt, but with positive energy. With love. How, how much they can do for others. And I would encourage all of you, if you've got questions about what's happening in your state legislature, you've got six senators and you've got representatives all over Burlington, please give them a call. They're waiting to hear from you. They want to hear from you. They serve you and they want to know what it is that's on your mind and what you would like them to be doing. So, a shout out to our state legislators. So here's a quick question for you. When you go to our very impressive state house and see the Abraham Lincoln statue and walk around, it really must bring back memories of, you know, as you said you were, you know, 45 years ago and really must bring back some interesting, there was so many colorful characters at the, in the legislature. What's it like, but final, I think we're down about 30 seconds. When you walk in the Golden Dome, how does it feel these days? Feels like I had such an opportunity and was so honored to have been a part of small, some small bit of what's happened over the history of Vermont. It just tickles me that I had that opportunity and the voters of Burlington gave me that opportunity. Well, my friend, I think, I think that you, you took the most of your opportunities and you obviously have a deep love for Burlington and Vermont. And again, I'd like to thank everyone. I think we're getting close to out of time. I want to wish you happy holidays. Remember for all you hardcore politicos, so we have a big city council race coming up. We have eight different wards. We'll be electing city councilors. So the mayor will be working very hard on that. I'd also like to thank the mayor's office. Judy, I want to thank you. So again, Judy Stephanie Hearn, former state legislator, former state senator, former senior advisor to Governor Cunin. And also we'll have to talk about you helping to implement the 911 telephone system. But that's for another time. I'd like to thank everybody. Have a great night. Bye bye, everyone.