 Oh, yes, because therapy is a process not an event, you go down the layers of the defence systems. And of course they're not really defending against you, that's the most important thing. And the therapist that I said over defends or sees their transactions as criticism on an attempt to annihilate them in some ways, they're on a hiding to nothing. They need to see the transactions as really a defence process and also an attempt to connect. We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room doors. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to the next episode of The Therapy Show behind closed doors with the wonderful Bob Cook as always and myself Jackie Jones. And this is episode 55 and we're going to be talking about love and compassion in the therapy process. I love this title. What do you love about it? I'm all about love and compassion for our self as well as other people. Well, that was one of the videos we did about exactly that topic. Yes. About love and compassion for ourselves. Well, I think it was the compassion. Well, I don't know what video it was really. But anyway, we did, we talked about love and compassion for ourselves as well as love and compassion for our clients. Yeah. Very important. Passion fatigue podcast. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay, okay. So where do you want to start with this then Jackie? Wherever you want to start and let's see where it takes us. Yeah. Sometimes I'm really conscious of where I am in the room when I look at love and compassion because if my headspace isn't in the right place, sometimes I find it more difficult than others to be compassionate. Generally in life, not just in the therapy room. Yeah, I think we all have our own internal possessive that are going on. Yeah. Really agree with that. Well, let's start with this. Though love and compassion I think is an intention that I come from. Yeah. It's a desire of mine and I think about it a lot because it's the basis of self-esteem for the other. However, quite a lot of clients aren't able to take love in. People that I see, because for lots of reasons from, they've not been brought up in a diet of love and compassion, they've been brought up in a diet of other processes. So they, they often may think that some of my positive strokes that I give, or some of my loving transactions, or some of my nurturing using to let's use TA language. Nurturing channel transactions. Not only they see that as an alien, they are not in a place to actually be able to take that in. And that those sort of nurturing transactions might actually overwhelm them. Yeah. The place where they go underground. That's one process. Another one is the, especially people with paranoid traits particularly may think it's a trick. Yeah. These nurturing transactions. That's what I was going to say. They can be a bit suspicious. There's all TV motives going on. Yeah. So they, so there's another whole process there. So I think it's, it's important if you're not being, if the client has been brought up on a full meal. They've been brought on upon crumbs. Then they are easily going to accept nurturing transactions. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think that's, that's really interesting. So what would you do in that situation? Would you bring that into their awareness and ask them, how did they feel when you said that? Well, that's, that's, that's one aspect you could do. I think I'm just aware of it. And I wish to find out where that process or pattern of crumbs comes from. So an historical inquiry. The other one is just to be aware of it, I think internally myself. I could share that and that will be an historical inquiry into the whole process. But, you know, if I was to deal with this behaviorally in terms of what transactions I might give, I might give negative conditional strokes. Basically, let's look at what I call a stroke sandwich. Yeah. In other words, let's give an example. Someone's laid for therapy. I'd say, well, you know, Joanne, let's make a name. Well, I really find it frustrating when you keep, you know, coming late for therapy and it's really good to see you. I'd really like you to change this behavior. Yeah. So you've got a positive nurturing transaction in the middle of the more challenging transactions. If they're used to negative negative transactions or the crumbs I talked about, then actually that will fit into their frame of reference. Though you are actually giving a positive transaction in the middle of the sandwich. So that's that. And another way to look at the same process is think of it as a cocktail of strokes. So you slip in these positive nurturing transactions in the stroke sandwich. Yeah. I think generally as human beings, we're a lot better at accepting negative comments or strokes than we are positive. That's a really interesting one. That I mean, I know what you mean, if you could took nine people out of 10 from from the population, perhaps they would be able to say quickly what they don't like about things, rather than what they do like a thing. That's the way you're coming from. Have I also think that how people are parented has a lot to do with this. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I'm not sure whether it's TA or one of the things I often say with clients is that our brain is designed to notice the negatives for our survival. So it does tend to err on the side of caution a lot of the time. So we'll hear the negatives and accept those whereas the positives, our survival doesn't usually depend on positive things. Positive transactions. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that yes, that's good to bear in mind and the types of client. That's too Jackie. I don't want to take that away. And the transact the clients were more likely to see our clients have been brought up on crumbs. Yeah, rather than a full meal. Yeah. And I can relate with that. I find it very uncomfortable if somebody's positive or shows me any form of affection outside of a relationship if that makes sense. I physically recoil sometimes from it. I don't know if you've been brought up with that. I mean, I used to go to Gambia a lot. I think I might have said the story on another podcast, but while I can repeat it, I think it's interesting story. And when I went there, of course, once I got used to the poverty, if you do get used to the poverty. I remember saying to my wife, well, I must, when I come next time, I'm going to bring a Christmas dinner because we used to go Christmas time with all the fappings, you know, and all the all the trappings of a Christmas dinner. And my wife thought I was completely mad. And she said, you know, they won't be able to eat that. I said, why? Because there's some of their stomachs are so shrunken and small, they'll be sick. Yeah. And if you think that is a metaphor for what we're talking about here. If you've been brought up with those positive nurturing transactions, then you'll be overwhelmed. Yeah. I like that metaphor. That's something that I use a lot of the time. It's kind of like, you know, if I'm working with a parent and I'm talking about, you know, positive affirmations and praise and recognition and those sorts of things. It's about giving them a juicy Sunday dinner rather than junk food. Yeah, you know, if we praise them and just say, oh, good job. It's that's like junk food. Whereas if we're specific about what we're praising them for, then that's like having a Sunday dinner with all the nutrition that they need. And it's validation. So it's kind of a similar thing. But yeah, it's important. It's on the same same ballpark. That doesn't mean. So even with that knowledge, it doesn't mean you lose the intention. Yeah. To to deliver nurturing, nurturing compassion. But but but it doesn't, it does help clinical thinking if you think about it that way. Yeah. And then you, as I said earlier, some of the transactions will be like a stroke cocktail, or you might slip some of these positive transactions in, you know, to fit it, but also be aware of their frame of reference. Yeah. You need to get back to where all this began. Yeah. The healing back there. There's a lot of, you know, clients and people in general, their upbringing is normal to them. They've got nothing to compare it to, you know, the way that they were parents, it is quite normal to them to get the crumbs becomes the norm. Unfortunately. Yeah, yeah. Given what all the what I've just said, it doesn't mean that people can't develop the capacity for increased self esteem or increased care for themselves. Yeah. It means that I think the therapist needs to think about the context of the work they're doing it in. Yeah. Yeah, because it's modeling it as well in a way, isn't it so that they can then show it to the selves and to others, you know, self love, a lot of people I speak to think that, you know, self care and self love is selfish. It's, you know, you should be focusing on the other rather than yourself. And it's breaking the mold, especially when you say, well, actually, no, it's not, you should prioritize yourself. Oh, too much love and compassion for ourselves. Certainly that needs to be there so that you can model it out. Yeah. I think a lot of the, there's a lot written on this, but we do know that love and compassion for ourselves are the building blocks of self esteem. Yeah. But unless the therapist can model that, then the client often doesn't have a model to follow. Yeah. Now you model it by not only nurturing transactions, but by things that you do. For example, maybe simple things like, you know, making a cup of tea might be taking account, taking account of how they're feeling and thinking, asking them how they are just might be just sort of some very caring pastime interactions. Yeah. So by showing compassion and love or nurture to the people. That's modeling in itself. Yeah. And I think that's that's a really important thing to model in, you know, not, not just like you were saying earlier on, it's about the intent behind the connection, you know, and I want to say, proving that there is no ulterior motive. That's just how you are with people. Yeah. And quite often what's written about in terms of what we're talking about is the client needs to see the heart of the therapist. Yeah. Now, that's an interesting one, because some of our clients may never have experienced the heart of the father, or the tears of the father, or the heart of the important parental figures. So it becomes a an interesting one clinically. And what does it mean? I think it means not just the words of validation and nurturing what just talking about here. But actions, as I've just said, to account for what they're feeling to ask them how they are to spend time being curious about the person and getting to know the person. I mean, that's prerequisites for any therapy, I think. Yeah. And this has been my never had people asking, how are you today? Yeah, it's going on for you. For some people might seem very straightforward, easy transactions and for some clients, they've not actually experienced that before. No. Sounds strange to these list of listeners on the podcast, but actually, often, you'll find out it's true. Yeah. It's a space for themselves. Yeah. And I think it's really important to allow the space we're talking about here, even if you have to fill this race, do it with curiosity questions. Yeah. How are you? How have you been since the last session? I've been thinking about it. It's been happening for you. That's powerful that. Yeah. So you're really accounting for them. And those are loving transactions. Whether the client is in a space to be able to receive them as loving transactions or even understand they are, it's a completely never story. Yeah. Well, I know it's a bit random, but it just kind of came into my head. So I'm going to say anyway, what if it's misinterpreted by the client? What if your intent and your love and compassion is misinterpreted by the client? Where does that leave you? So are you? Okay, so give me an example, Jackie. I was thinking, you know, we are quite vulnerable in that room as far as, you know, allegations or, you know, things like that. If somebody's not used to having, you know, love and compassion in a relationship of any description, you know, what happens if it is misunderstood in the therapy room? Oh, you mean if they think you're being seductive? Yeah, you're being. Is it really familiar or whatever you want to use it? Well, hopefully they would say something to you back like that, so that you knew what was happening. And if you didn't know what was happening, you'd say something like, and is it familiar for you to take kind words as over familiarity? Yeah. I've tried to find out the pattern. Is this what happens? Do you feel this a lot that people are to be over familiar or what is, well, I might go another way and say, oh, that's interesting. Certainly that note was not my intent. Yeah. What did you find particularly over familiar in my transactions to you? So they might say, well, you know, I don't ever have anybody saying these sorts of things to me unless they want something for me, from me. Well, I'm really sad to hear that and perhaps you could tell me a little bit more about this. Yeah. If you put that into the room, you would, you know, obviously, hopefully they would say something to you so that you can talk about it. Yeah. They're not going to say anything. Then I think the therapist is on a harder track. But usually through their body language, or their non verbal signals, you will pick up if they've withdrawn defensively. Yeah. So you seem to have moved back in your chair when I talked to you, when I was saying, how are you, what's been going on for you? Was that too difficult transaction for you to hear? Yeah, I think this is really important that, you know, when we are in the therapy process, we're looking at everything at different levels. There's, you know, half a dozen different things going on in every transaction. Especially the non verbal. Yeah. The unsaid. Yeah. What's happening on non verbal level. Yeah. Usually as a rule of thumb, I will bring it to their attention. You know, are you aware that at the moment you've cleansed your fist? Yeah. Is there a sense that you're frustrated at me or something that I might be doing which you don't like or is difficult for you? Yeah. And again, you know, that can be really powerful because they're not used to being observed or noticed in the body language. Yeah, that's the, that's the, that's the thing you're talking about here. And I think one of the really important topic here about this but the most important thing is that you don't go defensive. Yeah. The therapist doesn't go into a defensive place and feel attacked or feel criticized or something like that because if you go that way. Then they may never come back. Yeah. You see, we have to think of their world, you know, where from their frame of reference, they may find nurturing transactions, not only familiar, they may find them old familiar, they may find them alien. But it's a job of the therapist to be curious and to try and find out what's happening for the person. Yeah. Now that in itself, as you've just said, can be very empowering because they may have never been accounted for in that way before. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. The trap is though, if the therapist goes defensive. Oh, how come you spoke to, I've never done anything, I've done nothing on that might be warranted as unfamiliar or over familiar or a sense of over familiarity, where did you get that from? That's the, that defensive set of transactions. Yeah. Are really not therapeutic. No. And will usually lead to the client not coming back again. Yeah. And again, in, you know, in the early days of, you know, being a therapist, all these sort of things, it's like a minefield sometimes when you're in the therapy room. There's no other place I can think of where you would experience anything like being in a therapy room with somebody either as a client or as a therapist. It's kind of like the twilight zone. It's, it's a very special relationship that happens in a therapy room. It's very special and it's also confidential. Yeah. This is safe place for them to experiment. Yeah. And I always admire the clients that allow me to reach their vulnerable self because that's often the place where, which is most difficult for them. And that's why I'm talking about compassion, where I can, I feel most compassionate when I work with the vulnerable self if you like. Yeah. You know, I know we've touched on it before in other podcasts can take a long time for a client to be comfortable and trust you enough to show that part of themselves. Oh, yes, because therapy is a process, not an event. Yeah, go down the layers of the defense systems. Yeah. And of course they're not really defending against you. That's the most important thing. And the therapist that I said over defense or sees their transactions as criticism on attempt to annihilate them in some ways. They're on a hiding to nothing. They need to see the transactions as really a defense process and also an attempt to connect. Yeah. Because, you know, the work, the way I see things this fear that therapy is a contact oriented process. And we need to understand the brakes in the contact seeking, as well as looking out for ways to contact them. Yeah. And then they go perhaps into criticism or attack. It's really important the therapist doesn't parallel that. I need to find out what's behind it all. We can only do that in a way. If you see the vulnerable self of the client. So then my compassion will come out more. That's a really good point because even when a client withdraws the communication. When they disconnect, you know, they're communicating something to you. Oh, when they disconnect they're always commuting getting something to you. And that's where the therapy often is. Yeah. And the clients that, you know, do that so often, you know, years down the road, I can tell whether there's something coming up for them or whether I've hit a nerve or something because they just literally disconnect. So the question when somebody disconnects is where have you gone. Yeah. And how you say it's really important. So notice that you've. You seem really quiet. I don't know. Are you able to know what that's about? So it's more like a query set of transactions, but it's set in a nurturing way. Yeah. And with some clients, I've, I've looked, you know, over time, I've seen them and building up a relationship that what they're wanting is for me to ask them. And it gives them permission to tell me something. If that makes sense. Absolutely. If I say to them, what's going on for you right now, it gives them an opening that they can tell me what it actually is that they want to tell me. Yeah, because there's a hundred percent, often because they are too young. Yeah. Yeah. And a relational need to initiate the relational need for a significant person to initiate is a really important process. Yeah. Because they're too young to do it. 100% They've never had somebody seen them as important enough to initiate. Yeah. And with drawn cloud, desire is for the therapist to initiate. Yeah. Which again could be seen as love and compassion to initiate that contact. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And hopefully the, the client feels it as well. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. That's really interesting, Bob. Yeah. I think the relational need to have for a significant person to initiate. It's, it's important for the clinician to think about, because sometimes people have been trained. You know, not in transaction analysis, not in my, my model, but in other models to stay behind the client and just wait for the client to speak. They understand the, the given reasons for that. And I think if they don't understand that relational needs, they won't go down the road of initiating. Yeah. And I think that's a great shame. Me too. Yeah. Me too. And with drawn client is often waiting because unfortunately, the history might have been they've been waiting for the mother, the father to ask them how they are to initiate to account for them. It's never happened. So they withdraw even more. And the child is child's desire and the end met relational needs. It's just once for the mother, the father or significant other to say, how are you. Please tell me what's happening for you. Yeah. That's really loving powerful transaction. It is. And it does make a noticeable difference, you know, particularly with the client that I'm thinking of they immediately reconnect as soon as that, you know, I've initiated something the straight back in it. They have, you know, at times left the pause and not initiated it to see whether they would, you know, come back and reconnect, but it doesn't happen. Yeah. I think that what we're talking about is also is different levels of connection. So there's emotional connection. There's cognitive connection. There's behavioral connection. And sometimes we need to really look at how we connect. So the person who's been stroked positively for example cognition. What they desire is somebody say, I understand you thinking this way. How do you feel today? Yeah. Now that's a compassion transaction to a completely different dimension. Lots of my class have tremendously high, what I call IQs, you know, in terms of cognition and very low EQs emotional intelligence. And that's because that side hasn't been recognized. Yeah, that would work with me, Bob, you saying that connecting with the thinking and then bringing the feelings in that wouldn't frighten me. I would accept that. Yeah. Because the desire is to be seen emotionally. Yeah. From a compassion loving, caring place. If you do that repetitively, the person will see that and feel that nurture. Yeah. And it will meet an unmet early need. Yeah. It's a wonderful job that we do, Bob, isn't it? Well, it and we can only do it really where we started off jacket where you started off, which is to have a care and kindness for ourselves. Yeah. Because then of course, we will buy us most of nothing else pass that down to our clients. Yeah. Yeah. If we don't like ourselves, if we hate ourselves, if we have a little self esteem, how can we ever model that down to our clients? Yeah. That's one of the reasons need for therapy, I think that's why we all need therapy to get to the parts which actually are more the darker parts of ourselves so we don't pass it down to our clients. Besides the fact it will change our own personal worlds. In terms of the job, if we're going to do this job successfully, we need to understand ourselves, we need to be kind and friendly to ourselves so we can pass that down on to our clients. Yeah. I love and compassion for ourselves. It's what he said the beginning of podcast. I completely agree with you. If we haven't got that as a basis, this job is much harder in terms of modeling or even passing that down verbally. Yeah. I completely agree with that. I'm sure we will leave it there Bob and what we're doing on the next one kind of I think links with what you've just said there because the next podcast is going to be the five most important qualities a therapist needs to cultivate for effective therapy, which is a mouthful. I'm going to end it. Yeah, yeah, I'm looking forward to that one and I want to say to the end this one to say love and God bless to all the podcast listeners and also the people who watch us on the YouTube channel. Yes, what a wonderful way to end it. I love that. Yes. And yeah, it's like a cold we can spread it really fast if we have love and compassion and it does pass on through osmosis. And it's not going to hurt anybody. No, that's a really important sentence. It won't hurt anyone. In fact, it will do the opposite. Yes. So until next time, Bob. Good. See you next time. Bye. We'll see you with another episode.