 Welcome back to the breakfast on Plus TV Africa. Our first major conversation for today is about insecurity. Now, in Ogun State, there are reports about a clash between herders and farmers in a particular village or local meji in Ogun State. The news reaching us has been confirmed by residents of Ogun State, and we'll come back in more detail to that conversation in Ogun State. Let's talk now about elections, the Electoral Amendment Bill. We know that both chambers have gone ahead to put in some amendments to the Electoral Act, and a particular one in contention is Section 50 of that amendment bill, and they're basically saying that Nigerians can go ahead and vote electronically, but it will not be transmitted, the result of the election will not be transmitted electronically. We have the Coalition for Electoral, God bless to Tuberay, Coalition for Electoral Reforms joining us this morning. Good morning, Miss Al-Chabouré. Can you hear us, Miss Al-Chabouré? If you can hear us, can you unmute your mic? I can hear you, if you can hear me, I'm good. Fantastic. Good morning. Thanks for being here. Thank you for having me, yeah. All right, so we're basically talking about this situation where both chambers have inserted new provisions in this Electoral Act amendment bill, saying people can vote electronically, but it will not be transmitted electronically. What message does that send you? They are not ready to move the country's democracy forward. Dr Ahmed Lawan and Honorable Femig Badiw Amilha, and most of the members of the House, the 9th National Assembly, are saying to Nigerians we are not ready to move forward, and we're just going to remain where we are, but Nigerians are going to let them know that we're not going to remain where we are. It's funny, and it's even laughable, that you can vote electronically, but don't transmit the results electronically. What are you afraid of? So that's it. Exactly, Miss Al-Chabouré. What do you think they're afraid of? They're afraid of the people's will. If they're so popular, if they believe that they can go to the polls and talk to the people to vote, they should allow the results that are gotten from the poll to be transmitted by INEC. They're afraid of losing. That's it. This is a self-serving idea. Sadly, the president is not with them on this. How do you know that? Yes, because the president gave us his assurances. When he signed the Not-Yong-Turon bill, he told us clearly that what he wants to do is to bequeat incredible electoral legacy for Nigeria, and it's on record. I'm not just saying I'm not making desire. I'm saying it. Let us share this with everybody. President Muhammad-u-Buhari does not support what the Dr Ahmed Lawan and the Honourable President of the Blamila National Assembly are doing on this bill. Because the president wants to sign a bill that reflects the interests of the country that moves our elections forward. So I'm saying it to them. I'm saying it to them now that they are not working with the president on this one. So would you be ready for another conversation if the president does go ahead to ascend to this bill the way it is currently structured? Because the president will not ascend to this bill the way it is at the moment, because we will not allow it. Because at the end of the day, so let's be very clear, a lot of us that have been giving our lives the last three years just to ensure that our elections are better. We can't go to sleep knowing well that everything we've worked for in the last two and the plus, two and plus years, now three years, we just go down the drain. What are the changes that we would have recorded? What progress would we have made? How do you say, look, we all are complaining that people are writing results? How can I see five in my polling unit? And when it gets to the final destination, I see five thousand. That is an abarition. We're not in the zoo. We're not animals. We are human beings. We can think. Democracy works when the people's vote count. So I don't know whether we are afraid of. So I will come back to have this conversation, but I can tell you that from today to the day this bill is passed, we are giving assurances to Nigeria. And even we are telling the Senate president and the speaker of the House and all the principal members of the House, they will not have sleep. Can you share with us how you expect this will play out? The amendment, of course, says no electronic transmission of results. There's also, of course, plans for Llewyrtaw, not yet to be made in a commissioner in Delta State. And you're saying that President Muhammad Ibarri will not ascend to it. So does this look very much like we're going to get to 2023 without any new electoral act that has been signed and put into law? And how do you expect that you can tackle or continue to challenge this to ensure that these things are changed before it is signed? So the first thing we're doing is this. The House resumed their job this week from today. So we've lined up a series of activities that we will be using to engage members of the House. And we're going to do it democratically. There's no violence to anything we're doing or anything against the law. So when I say that the president will not sign this, it doesn't mean that the president will not sign an electoral amendment act. What we're simply saying is this. It is an alteration of this section 50, subsection 2, which states that now the version that we have, that we all made contributions to in the harmonization stage and then the committee review session and the public hearing session says that I think it's empowered to transmit results in the way that they chose. Right? The forged one, which now we are now also going to give Dr Ahmed Lawan and the Honorable Speaker, the benefit of the doubt to say, well, you are accusing us, but we are not also supporting this or that document that is circulating. It's the fact that we want to give to Nigeria. So we will give them that opportunity. Again, what the president will sign will be an electoral act that empowers INEC to be able to transmit results electronically so that there will be less bloodshed and violence in our elections. But what I'm asking is, how do you plan to stop this from going forward if the president decides that he likes this one? Because this is the same presidency that has nominated Loretta Onutche as INEC commissioner, even with all the little details that should make her not even a possible candidate for anything close to that. So how do you plan to prevent this from going forward if the House says this is the one, this is not a forged one, this is the exact one that we are putting forward to the presidency? What's the plan to stop that from going forward and being a center to? We are going to continue to engage them the way that democracy permits. I need to say this. I loved when you said the House will say this is the one. The House is not there on its own volition. The House is there because Nigerians, young people like myself and people all across the country voted for them. We are going to institute a general recall process for almost all the members of the House if they chose that what they would do is to ignore the yearnings of Nigerians. Look, this bill is not going to pay me. It's not going to bring. It's going to serve our country. So we have a recall tool. We have two disobedience tools that we're also going to employ. And like I said, we've been on this hill for the last three years and we've done it working with the House. We've done it working with the Speaker's office, with the Deputy Senate President's office, the Senate President's office and even the presidency. We believe in dialogue. We believe in engaging. What we're simply saying is this. Mr President will not go back on his word that I will be quit a credible electoral legacy for Nigerians. He promised us that. He can't deny it. It's on record. So if he goes ahead to say I like this one, we're going to remind him that sir, you cannot like this one because you gave us your word on another one. So the simple thing is this. They know that the president is not with them on this. I can tell you that for free. We are going to ensure that that House, the National Assembly that is the people's House, will see a lot of us this week. And we're going to do it severely. Okay, Mr Archibald. When we look at these, you know, key modifications in the Electoral Act amendment bill, would you say, you know, based on what we've seen, would you say that this, you know, takes away the power of INEC to be a truly independent electoral body? And how do you expect INEC to react to this? Well, you see, one of the most important thing is that why are we fixated on the electronic transmission of results? It's simply because that is the bedroom upon which the final outcome of election process is determined, results at the end of the day, because we don't want the whole process to go down in flames anymore. That is not the only thing that we're angry at. The previous, the one that we all worked on, and we believed, and in fact, in partnership with INEC, because let me explain how this thing worked. The House, what we're doing is we're repeal being the 2010 Electoral Amendment Act as amended and reenacting a new act 2020 now in 2021. What INEC and the civil society organizations and even the House agreed on is that there's too much influence of money in our politics. So we made recommendations that the next spend on a presidential campaign for presidency should not be more than $1 billion or $1.5 billion. My brother, my sister there, today the version that they are likely going to pass has increased the next spend for presidential campaigns to $15 billion. So you are literally saying to the people that your political system is not money driven, and once money becomes the focus of any political system, service is out of the window. Number two, you put a clause, a provision, Section 135 of the Act that they want to pass, that says that an election that does not meet the provisions of this Act, any elections conducted that does not meet the provisions of this Act. But, now listen, but it is believed that the inconsistency does not substantially affect the outcome of the election, that the election can be deemed valid. So you are literally saying it's woo-woo to the answer. So Ms Alchevery, my question remains, how do you expect INEC to react? Did you expect them to take this line down or challenge this amendment? See, you asked for, you said I was naming them so that Nigerians can understand. I was going there. INEC is, at the moment, still subject to the whims and characteristics of the executive, sadly so. Now, INEC will not come out and fight the executive. That is important that we must understand. INEC is in the middle. INEC is dealing with Nigerians. INEC is also managing an executive that is responsible for their appointment and their work. Because INEC, one of the things we are also looking at, that we recommended is financial autonomy for INEC. So if you ask me, how will INEC respond? INEC will not come out and say, oh, INEC will only give advisory positions. That's what they will do. They will say, OK, well, for the purpose of making our work easy, we believe that being able to do the things that the people want is important. But let us come back to the drawing table and look. That's what INEC will do. INEC will not speak the way I'm speaking. No. All right, Mr Altiboury. I want those to, of course, so quickly also share the reasons why they seem to be blocking the electronic transmission of results. The reasons the National Assembly is given for that and what you think should be the response of Nigerians. Remember, we're coming from a place where there was chaos over INEC servers and whether the servers were active or their batteries were down during the last elections and whether those witchcraft around the servers at that time. We've come from that place. We've dealt with that. So what are the reasons that they are currently given for not allowing electronic transfer of results? And what do you think should be the response of Nigerians who seriously want that to be a part of the new act? So we do not have a principal problem of the workability of transmitting results. What we have is a perceived fear of security breach or capacity. So the lawmakers who will tell you, oh, let's not transmit results electronically because it can be hacked. No, you are not dealing with the issue. If we are saying, oh no, if we transmit results electronically to be hacked, let us design firewalls that guarantee that our elections can remain, that we can transmit. Let me even say this. What we initially were asking for is that just you see the way people would do when we watch the US elections and how the results come in and you can literally see the results from precinct. We, of course, will try to reconnect with him this morning to continue that conversation. It's mostly all about the importance of having freer and fairer elections in 2023 and seeing what the Nigerian electoral process looks like going forward. For too long now, Nigerians have clamored and called for a better electoral process that gives Nigerians the ability to vote in the very, very best of candidates and, of course, a process that is almost seamless. It will be, and I feel from the reactions that I've seen to this, very, very heartbreaking that from the last elections when the president had said it was too early or it was too close to the elections and so they couldn't approve an amendment at that time, eventually this will be what would be approved or centred to figure it out. Exactly. And what Mr Algebraire was saying, basically trying to make comparison, when you take a look at elections in places of the US, you're even watching it on TV, seeing how the results and how people have voted, you're seeing that live. So really understandable why these questions must be asked. Mr Algebraire, are you there? I'm back. I'm back. I think I'm back. If you can hear me. I think I'm back. Yes, we can. Go ahead, please. I was saying that what INEC has tried to do is to take pictures of the final results that they sort of just show to everybody and then they send it through the value chain of the results collation process. Now, even if we're not doing manual, you know, transmission of the results from polling units and one of you, what INEC is able to do is to say the final results from the polling unit, the final results from the polling unit have been taken. And let me say this. Let me say this. INEC is doing that. The 2010 act that we're using to run our elections right now does not recognize that process in court. So it is not a legally backed process. What we are saying is make that process legally binding so that it is tenable in court as evidence. We were all in this country. We saw what happened with the Bialsa case. We saw what happened in Himo. We've seen that of just staying in one place. Can you remember the Edo State elections and how that ran? Was there any electronic transfer of results for Edo State elections? So what happened was that there were pictures taken of the form. Is it from EC8 now? I'm mobbing the numbers of jamming in my head and I'm trying to get it. So this is it. It's like, let me get something now. So this is the form. Let's say this is the form, right? Let's say this is the form. Now, at the end of voting, every polling unit, what you find is APC 300, PDP 200, YPP 300, whatever. That is what the polling officer, the PO, shows to everybody and signed by party agents, right? So we all look at that and say this is what was gotten from this polling unit. What we are simply asking is let this result be transmitted electronically to INEC such that let's not wait until this thing gets to the final collision centre and it changes. Let's be clear. We're not doing this thing to favour a political party, to be a victim of not transmitting results electronically. Why we can be a victim? Some people think that because they are in power today, then it favors them for us to manually continue to transmit our results. So what they did in Edo State was to take a picture of that form. For the purpose of evidence. But that evidence is still untenable in court because the electoral act does not recognise it. OK. So Mr Ochiwbary, what have a situation now where these modifications were seen, say that online elections, you know, voting should not be transmitted electronically. So do you then think that it's likely for people to now vote online and that would be declared on FFITs for years after the elections? And if that's done, I mean what's the way forward? You see for me, I just think it is a big problem because the infrastructure to enable people vote online, I don't know if INEC has that kind of infrastructure built at the moment. People don't vote online. You have to either mail in ballot or you go to a polling unit and vote. The only country at the moment that we've seen that people can vote online is Estonia, a very small country. And they are a highly tech developed country. So if you look, I think it is just a matter of trying to be smart, but not really smart, right? Because at the end of the day, what has happened is that we are trying to self-preserve ourselves and cut our legs at the same time. That's what the House is really trying to do to themselves. But you guys will not agree. All right. We'll see how this plays out. Like you said, you will of course be on your feet and then show that this doesn't get to be ascended to. And we will continue to follow through to see where this leads. And I'm saying it. Please show the President this statement. President Buhari, these people are trying to mess you up. We have a different agreement on this date, sir. Your expenses, sir. You promised us when you signed the not-too-young to run beer that you are going to be quit a good electoral legacy. And we agreed. The House is planning to do another thing that we did not agree, sir. Please, sir. Would it be important for you to actually hear the President make these statements? The President? The President? I understand what I'm saying. I understand that he did. There's also a lot of things that were said in 2014 before the elections. Also a lot of things that were said in 2019 before the elections also. So, yeah, he did. But would it be important for you? On this case, I'm just saying that. What the President promised us. I'm not referring to other things now. The other things that are troubling the country, there are a lot. On this one, the President is clear. I want to be quit a good electoral legacy. And when he was signing the not-too-young to run beer, he told us that he was sure that it is done. So, sir, this is not the version that we want to see. Okay. So, Mr Ochebore, the key issue here basically is about transparency. Fears that, you know, if the election results are not transmitted electronically, it will not be a transparent election process. So, even with the current situation, how it stands that, you know, they're saying you can vote electronically, but it cannot be transmitted electronically. How can we still ensure that the elections are free and fair? Well, you see, for us, the backdrop upon which... Okay, same as that. We lost exactly. We lost Mr Ochebore again. If we can get him in for that final conversation, we would because we're really wrapping up here about what the elections should look like. You know, like we've been saying, the bone of contention is transparency because why else would people be worried that the election results are not transmitted electronically? It's for fear that, you know, maybe something might happen to it along the way, like you mentioned. You're taking five or you're saying five, you know, where you cast your vote and it's 5,000 by the time they're announcing it. So, it's an issue of electoral transparency. Can we really assure that even when the election results are not transmitted electronically? So, he's waiting for the president to speak. Can we really expect the president to speak about this? That's another... Pretty much the same. Well, I don't expect that will happen. That's one. Not from the president, not from the, you know, spokesperson either. And this is one of the reasons why, you know, for a long time we've always said, you know, it's great. Oh, it's important that we have a president that actually has conversations with the people, and has conversations with Nigerians instead of, you know, just listening to spokespeople all the time. So, Mr Ochebore, we have you. Let's get your final thoughts in about election transparency. So, the thing is this, if the process, from the legal perspective, and from the point where we know that this is what is guiding the framework, guiding the execution of this act, you are already going to be doubting what the outcome will be. What we are simply saying is election results, not supposed to arise like Gary now. It's simple. That's just all. I can't vote in my time. And when it gets to I-Naked quotas, it changes. It's not done. We're not animals. We're people who went to school, we're people who are practicing self-government, government of buying for the people. And I just hope that everybody working together. And like I said, we're also going to give the speaker and the Senate president a better fit of the doubt to say, oh, no, no, no, no. We are not the ones that, that's not what we want to do too. Because at this moment, the final draft of what the one of us that we've seen, it's not good for Nigeria, and it's not good for our democratic advancement and progress. All right. God bless you. Everybody come to me. God bless you too, Borey, from the coalition of electoral reforms. We would like to have another conversation with you as quickly as possible. And of course, we will be following this up to see where this leads us. But thanks for the work that you do, and thanks for also taking our time to speak with Nigerians this morning. Thank you. Have a great day. All right. We're moving away from the electoral conversation now to Ogun State, where there seems to be chaos brewing between farmers and headers. Of course, we announced, we spoke earlier about this, the anti-open grazing law. And of course, the need to maintain peace and security across states in Nigeria. So we'll talk about that next with an indigent of that community. And of course, a representative of Macban that comes up right after the short break.