 red man group today co-founder of red man group and CEO of 21 studios today is episode 81 of the red man group and it's going to be starring and focusing on special guest pass devon we also have new panels on the show today ken curry he was a workshop speaker at the 21 convention patriarch edition this past spring in florida he was introduced to me by dr shanti smith and he's worked closely at times with dr robert blubber as well and he was actually on the red man group one of the three episodes we filmed live there in florida but you'll see later published on the youtube channel probably the next couple weeks also of course today with me regular panelists steve the dean williams from the man mindset dot com and ddj from miss andry today on youtube and miss andry today dot com gentlemen thanks for joining me it's good to be here thanks for having me on anthony x yeah i'm just not realizing i'm moving my camera so i should move my mic so so in today's episode guys what i want to focus on is the red pill itself as well as pat stephen and how his work differs from that agrees with it contrasts like all these things uh right out of the gate i just got to say that you know one of the red pill icons for years has been rolled to marsy of course you know from red pill community author of the rational male former co-founder of this company and his number one hatred of anyone i've ever seen is definitely pat stephen uh this was obvious this is not like a hidden thing anybody who had been watching this community for years or months would see this so it's interesting to have him on the show and here he has to say many of our speakers like hunter drew alexander courtesan more i've recommended me to get in contact with pat for a long time to talk to him and hear him out and today it's what we're going to do so i'm excited to dive into that and see what comes up from that conversation so pat can you give uh other than the brief introduction i just gave you can you give our audience kind of a quick intro to what you do and what your work's about before we get into anything else so i do dating relationship coaching for men um i i've been sort of in this community for about 11 years now uh got involved with it back in 2008 and that's obviously been a really long journey uh you know very much in the pickup in the beginning moved a little bit more into some more authentic types of games as time went on and then moved into even kind of like explored a little bit of like the sort of hippie spirituality circle and then i found myself in the red pills so if i can kind of now like where i am now which is obviously a little bit different if i could kind of describe i mean my path has taken me in this direction because i'm always just trying to search for truth and so i went from being just like a guy who didn't like like many guys right i didn't understand anything about women at all and it's just kind of been this onion i've been peeling the layers back of so uh you mentioned rollo and i came into this community i mean i like a lot of people i came to it because of the political situation right but you get pulled into other stuff as well and you know rollo had a really big following and he was saying stuff and people really felt a lot of certainty around it and i was really interested because it was very different material than i mean it definitely had some references to pick up but it was much more like talking about the core aspects of women it was less tactical and it was interesting to me and so i listened to his material um you know because i was at this point i was just kind of coming out of like the like the spirituality stuff and i knew that that was the hit or the hippie kind of you know so cal i called the so cal spirituality community um and i wasn't finding that that to be a complete answer so this was really cool because it was explaining things from a different angle and i couldn't deny certain truths in it but i also didn't feel like it was a monolithic understanding of women didn't square with my experience it didn't square with other strains of thought and so i was trying to find that reconciliation so like in what sense is this material true what context and are there contexts when it's not and so that was the dialogue that i was first trying to have with rollo i was trying to you know i i didn't find some of the stuff he was saying to be completely well rational um and i was trying to add just trying to add a little bit of nuance to it and his response was very hostile and he this was back in the summer earlier yeah all right so this was back in the summer of 2017 and there's a whole series of blog posts on my blog that kind of outlined this this conversation so to speak um but i think that the core thing was that i thought that he described women who are on a very who are on an unhealthy or kind of like immature or lower level i thought he described their behavior extremely well and i see you describe it actually as uh the red pill is useful as in understanding the shadow side of women yes the darker elements yeah and later in the show maybe i'd like you to explore a little bit more on that and what that means uh more detail for sure happy to do so um but yeah so so you know he talks a lot about the feminine imperative and it felt very much like this was basically that everything in humanity was like the entire history of man has been this like fight against women trying to control men and conquer men and i didn't think of that really squared with reality and so i published a thing called you know the ultimate imperative and it was really about men and women and their own different biological imperatives and how it comes together and and we didn't like that in our and things soured um so to speak the spats got more and more personal um but whenever we'd argue remember when this was going on on twitter it was always like this big clusterfuck yeah and i'll give i'll give myself a little bit of credit at this time no one was really doing that to him which is i think is why he hated me so much now because i was really like i was causing a lot of shit around him that he wasn't used to because i think in it was like after the election that corner of the internet you know and you know mike sternovich kind of like moved away from man as for your stuff so there was a vacuum that was created and i think rollo really filled that vacuum and he had like maybe six months or so we should also left the red pill community i think right around this time that started doing his neo masculinity he tried to hive off and create his own community itself how did they get into working out but he's still a huge audience that's that's actually that's right yeah so there was a lot of things and this and a lot of people kind of moving on and it create a big vacuum and rollo really took it took it up and anyway so um we would argue online and frankly i think i made him look like an idiot jesus okay oh he blocked me eventually and then he's but there's always been stuff that continues from then so we've always had like a yeah you know some low-scale war going on yeah yeah i remember just watching these good i would always just stay out of it i'm like i don't really sometimes i get involved with stuff usually i just didn't i was like yeah i don't want to be part of this these are our own battles you could do it even do what he needs to do but i just i know behind the scenes though for years that a lot of our speakers have been rooting for you they've been talking to me about you guys like tanner guzzy guys like a gcortez hunter drew in these guys and yeah it was just you know nice fun we've been talking about you know vortex in dm for a little while and so it's good to finally get you on the show it's great to be here and those are really good guys so i mean i'm i'm happy it seems like everything's been been cleared you know who's on where who's who's where right yeah sometimes things take time to you know heal and demand or to actually well if i can jump in here too i can kind of speak to that i'm i'm no stranger to controversy and what i find is is that you know usually what ends up happening is is that you know a lie travels halfway around the world before the truth gets its first airing and what ends up happening in a lot of these situations is is that a lot of people really don't care about supporting the manosphere or you know the red pill community per se and so what ends up happening is is they developed these cults of personality and then once they have their little cult in place they'll do everything they can to protect it with no regard to the ethics and no regard to you know what kind of responsibility they have as a voice within the manosphere so i mean and and really the reality is at the end of the day and the last thing i'll say is this is that the truth always comes out and so when it does um you know then everybody gets together like we are today yeah let's get into some uh topics here so we can go through the panel of this as well so i know pat you send me some notes we can go through and i do want to go through those but even before that just some basics what do you think about intimacy in relation to the red pill intimacy for men and how they deal with it how they uh evolve with this over time how they develop it and interact with it in their lives is this something you've seen embracing the red pill is this something that you've seen rejected i mean in my opinion it's a hot button issue that you know a lot of guys don't want to deal with because it can go it can go south real quick being too vulnerable to intimate oversharing there's there's definitely issues with it in my opinion but a lot of value in it too there are and i think that so one of the one of the things that i've kind of tried to understand a bit more over the last two months which is sort of it was like a crystallization of a lot of the stuff that i had had as like issues with with rollo and whatnot and trying to figure out like where is the truth in this entire spectrum it's from what i understand now you have people who are basically on different levels of i don't mean this in like it's not a judgmental way but there are different levels of consciousness and they're in a different relationship like between like a higher vibration or a lower vibration you can kind of feel if you go into a room like some people might might say some of this stuff sounds a little woo woo but i mean on a most on a more basic level like you know if you're around someone and they have a negative vibe and you're just like i don't really want to be around this person right this could also be interpreted as like who's present and in the moment and who's like stuck in their head and shit like that without being it's it's it's part of it but it's also just like it's an orient it's like how are they oriented towards other people so it's so people who are sort of on a lower level they're there there's a lot of i mean there's a lot of anger there's a lot of helplessness a lot of scarcity a lot of obsession with power and control whereas as you go up the spectrum more there's more courage there's more love oh yeah i've seen you right um i think tears you have like a you had a blog post about this i've seen yeah yeah there's um so as people rise through that that spectrum their orientation towards the world changes they seek less control because they expect good things to happen to them there's more abundance and you know it look i mean i it works it's it's accurate in my experience maybe some people don't it may take them some time to understand it and full will blow but there are ways that like there are different kind of markets right so everyone talks about the sexual marketplace and the sexual marketplace exists but there are also different dating markets within it and you can kind of segment it in terms of you have a like a low consciousness dating market and so if you're going to be as a guy focused on power right you want to be the guy who's in control in the relationship then the red pill is the correct answer to that because and what a lot of the red pill guys seem to understand and it's it's correct they look at feminism especially it's later forms as being a movement to put women in control of men it's a huge power grab is what it is like a huge yeah it is it's a power grab and so the red pills response to that is that no no we're going to take the power back again it's like well okay like and so that's why a lot of guys are like well is the red pill really our enemy it's like well i i kind of look at them like i understand some of the points and i can get into some of the the relevant details about the good parts about it right but the framework that men and women are against each other like the only people who benefit from that are actually other feminists right like yeah exactly exactly like if you if they feed off of each other because it becomes like a victim perpetrator dynamic no one's having loving relationships and so if everybody is like out to get each other then yeah you want to know the best ways to do that and you're going to use an insecure woman's insecurity against her you're going to and and that'll work it'll work it'll work i was saying recently you could throw gasoline on daddy issues like this fire oh yeah oh my god and it works like there's a reason there's a reason we talk about it and there's a reason that guys have thought this up and executed all these ideas but the question can i can i say something with that right absolutely this whole thing about you're talking about the power grab and everything and and i like to really think about the whole power thing on two different categories one is you're talking about when it's a power grab it's a power which is the whole thing of the zero sum game or somebody has power the other person has no power and and you got to start we as men we have to start thinking a totally different game with power where i call it abundance power where i become powerful and then my woman becomes powerful and then as she becomes more powerful i become more powerful and there's plenty of power to go around and thinking where it's not a zero sum uh plus one minus one equals zero then you start thinking about power how it really is and and then everybody wins and it's pretty damn awesome yeah i was thinking i was thinking about that too like uh you're putting it like i like that you're putting it that if you there's so much power in one side it's like this domineering force yeah and it doesn't have to be that way yeah which is different from like leadership and authority and responsibility and respect and things like that which are also forms of power and these things should be yeah well i yeah go ahead pet sorry no so i i'm just gonna say like the man the man leads the relationship but just like like if you're like an infantry captain right and you've got a platoon like there are different ways to lead like you can lead because hey i'm an authority i lead like you got to follow what i say or the and which is usually pretty empty you have to like rely on the sergeant to do things you'll get fragged right if you do that stuff um leaders who lead based on truth though they lead from like the position of we're going to take this group to another level i'm i'm going to protect you right i'm doing what's best for you so in a certain sense it's like there is a degree of leadership from from service but it's really like you're you are so grounded your frame is so strong and your authority is so strong because it's not even about you it's about a higher order truth and i think that the problem for a lot of guys is that they don't they they have a hard time even looking beyond like looking to that level by by higher order you mean like alignment with your nature as a man like the revolution and biology and psychology or is it you're talking about a little more different than that too well it's it's definitely that because you have to be aligned as a man i think as a man if you're if you don't in touch with your masculine aspect you actually can't do this you won't be able to there's certain phases as a man you have to go through and once you get your masculinity really understood and grounded in you you start to you can start to kind of take it like you how do i put it i mean i talk about it like it's like you are discerning what is true in a certain situation what is what is true what is best what is best for her what is best for you and you're leading off of that so it's not about you people talk about this as as like leadership in terms of like a service-based leadership but i think that guys might misconstruct they think oh you're just trying to do things for the girl it's like that is that is submitting yourself to her ego which is like back in that game like we're not talking about it obviously we fall into ego we're humans right but the idea behind it is that you're trying to lead the relationship from a different place from beyond that stuff and i really want to emphasize this like you can't operate in a relationship at this level if you are not willing to leave a relationship because the trap that guys get into is like i don't have a choice i have to be in this and then they're weak and then you can't lead from weakness so you have no you're reducing yourself to zero options at that point when you don't yeah so you want to choose to be in a relationship because if you are 90 90 percent in a relationship it is way harder than being 100 in a relationship but you would you would disagree and we can open this up to the panel you would disagree it sounds like strongly with the idea that for one sexual strategy for one the one gender sexual strategy to just to succeed the other one has to fail or be compromised in some significant way this is something that role is said a thousand times and i've seen elsewhere in the repel as well because that to me sounds like a zero some game where someone always loses i mean if you want to just distill things down to a purely biological level men both men are both uh you could argue that men have the best and the worst i think boy bought by meister this is another really good good book by the way for guys reading is there anything good about men um way before it's time for these kind of conversations and you got a lot of flak from that but he's one of the best psychologists in the in the nation in the world really um and he talks about how men are on both sides of the bell curve with all sorts of stuff so everyone talks about like guys are at the very top you know highest level iq highest highest earning and that stuff is true and there's biological reasons for that um then we're also at the bottom we end up in prison it's right they go into prison they have the lowest iq they have the so it's it's like but no society ignores the second half of it right but the idea behind it is that guys who are on the very half you know in a in a purely evolutionary sense right theoretically the guy could spread his genes throughout the population more right so you can say that women have a advantage against men who who didn't really you know because the idea is that men are expendable like i love giving this example there is um the war is very obscure fact but it's interesting the war of the triple alliance this was a war in the late 1800s between brazil argentina and uruguay supported by united kingdom against paraguay so paraguay at one point was like it was bigger much bigger and it was wanted to see access basically and so there is a there was a war about it none of the other countries wanted that to happen and as you can imagine a tiny country like paraguay against you know two massive countries another country and supported by the united kingdom didn't go over very well paraguay was is actually lucky to exist i mean it was like negotiated by i think a u.s president negotiated the peace tree that kept it in existence doesn't matter the point is that paraguay lost i think nine out of ten men in the country like i haven't even heard you go to world war two all the stuff that happened to the the russians right it's it's worse than that and yet and and there's even dispensations given for men to have up to 13 wives for a generation because there were so many women compared to men the population rebounded in a generation so it really underlines the point that men are expendable it's one of the one of the reasons that men are put in the front line because the society can use lose a lot of men and it can rebound can't do that if the women are taken away basically so anyway i would make that digression because that is the role of men like that's why men have this impulse to prove themselves and to grow and to become more powerful right because if a man doesn't do that a man a man's existence on a biological level is determined in a large sense by what he does women women can also define themselves in these ways but on a biological level that's not as relevant so for men that would be consistent with the idea that you are what you do and not what you think or you're more of what you do and not what you think correct correct and so when we talk about the sexual strategy thing it's like well well yeah women they don't want the guys that didn't prove themselves they don't they don't want that they're biologically oriented to not want that but for the guys that have proved themselves they really want that and so we talk about this like so just biologically speaking right like it's not that women are out to go after men it's that like women women maybe oppress they don't grant sexual access to guys who didn't compete but they don't do that to other guys and you don't have to be like some freaking Chad like the one of the or let me let me rephrase that you don't have to be like this massive player like this is another thing I find so funny is that a lot of the guys over there and I have no problem with that I you know I I think that guys today there's a lot of there's paths you can take and I think that there's also sometimes you have to go through certain experiences to to grow but you see stuff with like like this idea that the apex alpha man is just like out hooking up with tons and tons of girls it's like that has never been historically accurate that has never like the guys who did that always suffered problems socially from other guys and because because they were a risk to the community basically so it's there's a lot of like pseudos science that gets that gets thrown around so that was a long-winded way of me basically saying that it's it's not one-dimensional that like women are out to oppress men women in many ways and in a good relationship you really feel this like women actually want their men to be better because it's better for them to have that happen how dare you speak that that sounds like red pill treason well here's the thing I think Pat hits the nail on the head okay and I've said this a lot in my content as well and that is that women are not out to oppress men I've always said this you know and that's why people when you hear feminists reframe the conversation of opposition to feminism as an opposition to women that is that is probably one of the most disingenuous reframes in that particular dialogue and the reality is is that feminism is an ideology and there are many many women out there who do not subscribe to the feminist ideology now I'm I'm going to say this that you know hypergamy is a biological imperative and that does is what causes men to compete but once you have a balance in your relationship and there's a mutual respect and a mutual investment then those relationships are possible so I think that you know there's there's a lot to be said when it comes to that but I think the most important piece at least for me anyway the takeaway is this is you know don't let anybody tell you that you know this is a war of men and you know against women it's not it's it's a feminist war on men and feminism is an ideology it's not a gender so don't don't let any anytime somebody reframes or tries to reframe this idea that feminism you know opposition to feminism is an opposition to women that that's bullshit plain and simple yeah and feminism has a lot of men involved with it too the vichy males that they're using it for all kinds of reasons they think are going to help them or whatever the whatever they've been brainwashed with it's easy to forget that too because of the you know at least by the name of feminism but there's a ton of men involved with it celebrities down to everyday dude and support it wearing t-shirts and shit yeah but let's not make that a segue to talk about vichy males yeah yeah so pat let's get into some of the notes you gave me and we'll go through these in the panel you guys hop in and out as you like so some of the notes that pat wanted to go with me i'd love to get into uh red pill is hyper rationalist foundation which is based on flawed premise of human nature considers man to be an animal which backwards rationalizes and justifies unethical victim perpetrator dynamics between men and women you can talk to me a little bit about that maybe the relationship between reason rationality and instinct in men sure so and i'll come right out of the gate and say this is something i've struggled with uh leveraging rationality being rational even when it might uh superficially feel or look like a rationality like it's an impulsive thing right tapping into that side of myself can you can you uh go into that a little bit more anthony yeah sure so being i think for example being aggressive and being assertive with women is tapping into a non-rational side of your brain it's being impulsive and being okay with that and embracing it rather than freezing up with it having a fight fight fun you know freeze response uh or something else like that and this is something a lot of guys struggle with especially if they're raised like beta blue pill do not have a strong father figure around someone to lead by example and present like how that works for real life in a positive and healthy way and i learned how to do this in part by just going out you know and meeting thousands of women through cold approaches and stuff like that in my especially in my days in the pick apartist community uh so i think that's it took a long time like the red pill is supposed to be about truth and reality and all these things and therefore rationality is a method the best method to obtaining that but that doesn't always mean you're going to be uh what most would consider rational in the moment you might appear to be very irrational in the moment but it's not this is what women are going to respond to cool so so yeah i don't know i don't know if i'm explaining this perfectly no no that was really good that was really good that helped give me a little bit of a little bit of clarity so you can kind of look at it like you have sort of three centers you have your your gut you have your mind and you have your heart okay and as a man you like a lot of guys today they're completely disconnected from their instinct but they're also disconnected from their heart they're pretty much just mind and you see that a lot with like you know a lot of bitter people online um they just you know they have theories about women right and and they use it mentally to rationalize why certain things in their life are the way they are and in the mind is also where you know a lot of or a lot of uh ideological thinking comes from guys who go out and they start to challenge themselves like like you did anthony and they go out and they approach a lot of women so long as they're they're really like they start to feel it in the moment right they get really in touch with their instinct and the instinct is a very attractive place to be when interacting with the woman because women respond to men who have their instinct this is very important especially in the bedroom a lot of guys do not have any sort of connection with their their animal nature ken i were talking a bit about this um before on the call and that would be you know love to have you jump in and talk a little bit about that afterwards ken based on some of the other things you were saying but um but yeah now i would argue that there's another part too which a lot of guys also struggle with and i think that the people sort of in you know the tomasi circles just are have completely shut down and that's the heart center right and that's the ability to sort of feel feel something for another person it's it's basically allowing access to love now the problem for them is is for a lot of these guys at least i won't generalize everybody but they got hurt and so they never had a really good relationship with that part of them um it was always very needy and it would just kind of play all out and they didn't it weren't in touch with it they weren't really in touch with love so much as need but to the extent that it was open that's how it expressed itself and then they got hurt to clarify to the ripple community in my opinion is notorious for guys finding it after a toxic relationship yes that's how i was introduced to it and like a huge chunk of that community that's how it was formed and that's different from the like migtail community well maybe not migtail but that'd be different from the pickup artist community which is a little more diverse and how people find it and obviously like immense rice community too that can be part of it but it's more the reasons people find those communities are more diverse in my opinion it's a really good point and i think that a lot of the pua guys are trying to develop more instinct usually when they're going out with it and i think that some of the other communities with red pill there's maybe more focus on like the mind aspect of things and other ones are more concerned with the heart and i think that if you can combine all three together you have a really good way of living but if you leave out one that's that's going to be a real problem like the problem so for instance i told you a little bit about my story going through these different you know communities over time and i think it's that's actually kind of an interesting way to look at it because one of the things with like you know so cal spirituality community like very very open heart um very very not just by the name it sounds like it yeah well it's it's the descendant of the new age community it's you know it is yeah it is very not in touch with their mind for the most part um and with middling aspects when it comes to instinct uh so yeah so but for a lot of these guys it's like they they actually so their heart shut down completely after being hurt and they really leaned on on theory and they leaned on power and they leaned on these sort of things and that that that became a crutch and they're they're so afraid i mean honestly when i see these guys i see enormous amounts of fear like they don't know they're not intimidating to me yep yeah i was uh making fun of this guy yesterday keeps like harassing 21 con on twitter and that's exactly what i see too this guy is like legitimately angry and bitter and you can like see it just like vomiting out on twitter and there's fear too like this is someone he might get laid but it's like not it's not whatever it is ain't fun it's like this weird dark thing that doesn't have any variation to it well you can tell you can tell the desperation and the insecurity when the disagreement moves beyond the issues and it starts devolving into adham and character attacks that's when you know that that they're desperate for a narrative and they have no interest in actually discussing you know the issues at hand yeah yeah you you might call what like they they pretty much will just call you blue pill or something if you even start to approach anything from a hard perspective now my perspective is that for if you're on those lower levels if you're dealing with you have tons of like internal baggage and you're attracted to women who have all sorts of baggage like the blue pill is a really bad place to be because you're you're in the victim perpetrator circle and you're the victim like you are prey and so the real question is like but i always think i'm all about question assumptions so it's like if things aren't like if you're not happy you have to you have to move past it you have to jump you have to try to figure out a way to get out of that area because there are different markets there are different people that you can date and i i really see it like i'll give another framework which i think is kind of interesting you go to like attachment theory uh yeah i actually want to talk to you about that i had all window open on it fuck yeah yeah so attachment theory i mean i won't go too too deep into detail about it but the the three primary ones are anxious avoidant and secure and so what you can say is that for most of you know recent history not recent as in modern history let's say pre pre sexual liberation movement pre feminism you had a good portion of secure relationships and then and then also a good portion of avoidant men with anxious women and anxious and avoidant types tend to go to each other um the avoidant usually plays more of the sort of perpetrator of all the the anxious usually plays more of the victim and and guys can see this i've talked about girl game in the past anxious girls insecure girls will will do this thing and and for women from a biological like if leveraging their biology it works better being kind of in the anxious position because you can be like i need you i need you blah blah and so these guys who it's more of a feminine role that's going to be dysfunctional it is it is and and they pull they pull guys into in and the guy thinks i got all this power she really likes me blah blah but then she's actually like kind of working like chipping down his barriers and he's starting to like let her in because he's like i can afford to be vulnerable now with this girl and then once she's in then the dynamic flips she starts pulling away well that sounds like a covert narcissist game that a lot of narcissists women do it's exactly it's exactly right um but a lot of a lot of like anxious women are in that category and they their whole idea is trying to be needy and trying to to get attention from the guy and the guy who also has his own kind of baggage because why else would he be with that kind of girl he likes to be needed and so he tries to keep himself away from her they both have intimacy issues but that's how they do it now what feminism basically said was that hey girls time to stop being anxious time to be avoidant so they sort of flipped it and then they've been in with the cultural programming with guys it's been trying to make guys play that anxious role so you have the same kind of dynamic now it's actually even worse you could argue because it's really depolarizing for a guy to be in the anxious state with girls in the entire culture right now this is the depolarization every women are less feminine than ever before men are less masculine or before at least in the west a hundred percent and it's also why they can't even form relationships because you could you could form unhealthy relationships but they would still form and you could saw families if the guy was avoided and the girl was anxious but when the guy becomes anxious the girl doesn't want anything to do with it and so the avoidant girl just goes for hook ups yeah and it was it's been very interesting because you have this so basically this is peak retard on both sides peak retard boy yeah peak retard and I actually think this is really interesting because traditionally there's this whole thing with you know women want the relationship with the guy right and so like it and so she's even the guys I got a stuff together you know and and I would still say the majority of women are like this if they you know they're with a guy that they enjoy seeing and he's attractive etc checks the boxes but a lot of women today they're they're so avoidant that they actually like they can't form relationships with guys at all and that they only they only want like impersonal transactional sex really historically anomalous like it's a sign of pretty severe trauma and I'm certain so much of it has to do with terrible issues with their fathers it's also bizarre because usually this would historically because it's usually this would be available condoms are I mean there is this old form of condoms but like modern condoms or anything birth control pills iud's you know even the understanding we have of like ovulation pull and pull and pray and all this shit for thousands of years this didn't exist like everybody you just everybody's got fucking knocked up all the time well yeah and that's true when it came to intercourse but the type of narcissist the type of covert narcissist Pat's talking about these are women who are well versed sexually so you know they're giving hand jobs they're doing oral they're doing anal they're doing all these other different things and so that transactional sex they have more things that they can transact with because they have a higher skill set than the other and indeed thing is is it with that higher skill set that that sexual activity does break down that male those male walls those that those defenses against that sort of thing so even though this has been going on for an extremely long time it's it's more often now characterized with intercourse because of the vast amounts of birth control that are available yeah yeah I could say too that things have gotten on this topic these have gotten so bad in the online dating marketplace just like take a specific example at least in a major American city or relatively major American city like Orlando I can consistently get girls now off you know Tinder and stuff like that to my front door I've never met them and we'll fucking 10 minutes flat now part of that to me actually doing that on purpose and like focusing on that like how can I do this and that's my own stuff that I'm just doing right but it's also it's it's I found it to be counterproductive sometimes maybe I don't know a percentage of the time but a good chunk of the time to even go on dates because he's going around looking for that and it slows down this process of what they want to use me for and so I find it more beneficial if I want to have sex just go immediately for what I want to do and it happens literally that fast in like 10 or 12 minutes sometimes yeah maybe not what they expected but that's generally what they expected no I've been hearing that a ton with with clients and it's really it's really fascinating and it's really frankly I mean I think it's pretty disturbing and I don't think even a couple years ago when I got on Tinder after my relationship ended with my ex-wife like three and a half years ago and it wasn't quite the same back then it was more it was more like 5050 what would happen and what would be most beneficial a wine date or something or just immediate hookup and now it's just getting more lopsided over time and I've wondered of course like is this my own bias is this what I'm doing but I'm like I have friends who do this too and all of us for like it's all going this direction and it's not healthy especially for the woman well it's not that it's it's not that it's all going that direction and maybe Steve the Dean can jump in here too but you know I've experienced situations where even pre online dating where you know you meet a chick and in a very short period of time it's gotten physical and so I mean it's faster now because of online dating I think and because online dating commodifies relationships just like you know I want to buy something at Amazon well I want to buy this piece of pussy there you go but I mean even prior to online dating you know as an older guy I mean I remember going very quickly from one phase to the next and it's just a question of escalation because that's what she wanted to begin with yeah yeah that's what I've gotten down with a lot of this is out of escalated from like an online swipe to text to phone to on the front door or sometimes there's but usually it's mine and humble brag and I think a lot of it is also it's like there's a selection aspect to it so there are certain girls and you can one of the things I go over with with clients on sites is that you can see you can tell pretty pretty well I mean if you if you have a trained eye what certain girls are looking for and I think that like a lot of girls are I mean I think girls pretty much across the board or obviously all willing to sex sexually sexually escalate faster than they were in the past but I from what I've seen from from the stats and from also from talking to women I mean including in New York City there are yes yes there's um it's it's like with everything there it's separated into two different categories there are some women who are like barely dating barely having sex at all and then there are some that are like going out multiple times a week different guys hooking up and a lot of the girls in the former category some are not in some are in relationships they got in the relationships fast and that's kind of what they do other ones are kind of like semi-female incel they're not nearly as prominent as the male version of it yeah of course but I know I know you're talking about I've seen this in real life and it's bizarre yeah girls get so burned out they actually go some of them you're most skeptical of course but it's like you really feel like this girl is so fucking burnt from doing this stuff they just stop for a while no bunch of you pick back up on it it's like a behavior pattern they fall back into but we're going months without getting laid and for them it's in its own it's on purpose they're just so burned out by it I think somebody who's getting really burned out are the guys there's a lot of a lot of men out there going this whole world that we live in it's kind of feeling nutzy yeah I'm I'm it's not providing for me what I really want in life and it's it's one thing to the next but it's just pretty much it's just smoking the validation crack pipe or I'm just getting validation from these other women and I'm trying to and I get that but goes back to the whole thing we were talking about earlier with the hyper rationality is if I'm if I'm living with the hyper rationality it's the same thing as living with the hyper sexuality it's I'm really missing out on a really big core of my life you know how we're talking about three different categories of there there are so many more than three I mean that there's the there's all the the spiritual there's the body there's the physical there's there is my mental stuff but there's so many internal resources that we have and the whole thing of not living a life where I'm whole and I'm complete and I'm integrated with all those all the stuff within me and if I get all bent like like uh we've been talking about two different categories of actually three when you mention the the the feeling thing you know if I'm feeling without thinking and if I'm thinking without feeling or I'm sexual without um uh my core or my values and all that it's like I'm really missing out and I think the world that we live in with all the sexuality like it is men are really missing out on living a very integrated life where they're really pursuing what they really want yeah because I don't think what what you guys are describing interacting with these kind of women is what men really want I would agree with that I also think too to kind of dovetail on what Anthony said where you know these women talk about they're getting burnt out and I think one of the things that most tribes of the man is fear they don't talk about is what I like to recall what I like to call binge promiscuity so you know how like with any other kind of addiction or any other kind of you know mental dysfunction that's the women are because they're binging on it from time to time and a lot of guys don't do this yeah that's what they do so so these women are running around and they're pretending to be the conservative next door and they're acting like everything you know is is is fine the time but then they turn around and they do this binge promiscuity where they spend a week or two or three out of the year and you know it's open season and they're trying to compete with McDonald's for how many people served so I think that at the end of the day you know that's something that we really need to consider and think about as well because a lot of times what happens is if you don't spend time to get to know the woman that you're interested in in some sort of deep level she's just going to compartmentalize you and then when she goes out and does what she does you're you're just not going to see it unless you look at it through that you know through more of a an accurate lens yeah we got a super chat question by the way we should take that appreciate that Darius Thurman I've seen this guy before five dollars from Darius Thurman Pat how do you cure anxious attachment and be secure counseling personal mission your thoughts yeah it's I mean guys who fall into the anxious or avoidant category basically which is two sides of the same coin I mean that has to do with a lot of a lot of trauma usually going up and it may not even be like when I say trauma like people think like oh it was like serious terrible things were happening all the time yeah it's not always like that are you familiar with CPTSD complex post-traumatic stress disorder um no no no I would I would be making up if I try to okay what what's tell me about it and I'll it's it's basically what you're referring to in my opinion I don't know if Ken's familiar with this he would have not yeah so one of our speakers Richard Grannon who spoke recently in Poland he's not the first you know to focus on this but it's a big focus for him on his youtube channel at Spartan Life Coach it's a big channel six figures subscriber count so complex post-traumatic stress disorder would be he actually calls it CPTSR so stress response rather than disorder he describes it as like a scattershot series of traumatic events first it's like being in a combat veteran you want there's some serious shit you saw people die you kill people you saw your best friend burn his face burn off these are traumatic events that are obvious and they cause serious harm or they can and we see these in like culture and movies nowadays east and off your you know respected of course there's a whole history of PTSD being accepted I think in psychology right shell shock and it evolved over time CPTSD is not I think treated formally yet but it might be soon in like diagnostic manuals and stuff but yeah it's basically if you had a rough childhood and you had a you had a real childhood trauma but there wasn't any major event like say you weren't sexually abused it was just 15 or 20 years of like emotional neglect yelling screaming things like that that would be CPTSD forming over time and then you get stuck in those behavioral patterns or responses to those events as an adult when the when the events are gone they're not happening anymore but you develop a pattern of behavior that's decades deep and I think a lot of guys in the manuscript have this I think I have this definitely something that's been you know I've had to deal with my entire life you know I've only really come to terms with the past couple years approaching 30 I'm 31 now anyway I'll end my rant but yeah it's again to mine with what you're talking about no thank you thank you for that I mean it's it can be stuff like even if you're like I think people have a disposition for it there's probably a genetic disposition but it's hugely impacted by environments but it could be like you get you get dropped off for daycare too early and you're and you're completely you know and you're they're screaming and you want your mom and your mom's left and everything and that that stuff over time as it gets more and more reinforced it can cause sort of emotional shutdown regulations so some things are not very clear about how it happens in people other times it is very clear one big one that happens with guys has to do with their fathers guys who have a bad relationship with their father or a distant relationship with their father profoundly affects a man's self-esteem just for women too but it affects it differently because as a guy you can have a really hard time trying to find yourself if you didn't have that sort of guidance and and stability growing up one of the idea I mean you're talking about a dysfunctional or unhealthy relationship with the same sex being who created you you were created by two human beings they fucked one of them the same sex the other one's the opposite sex see I mean to me it makes perfect sense that it would affect women differently than men the same way a woman's relationship with her mother would be different than the sons with her mother the problem like a like a bad relationship with a mother is going to make the guy either way too needy and attached or or it's going to and actually an interesting subsection of that is that a lot of guys I'm Darius I'm gonna I'm I'm this is a cool tangent though I want to just mention real fast a lot of guys you have the caricature guy who is really really tied into a woman's who's like tied to his mother and he's like a mama's boy right he's needy blah blah blah but there's another subset of that which is actually the seducer a lot of seducers are very very tied to their mothers they what they'll basically do is they'll you know they'll go and they'll see with lots of other women and it's kind of this whole thing but mom is always top mom is always the kind of top dog and it gets transmuted they become they become the man that their mother probably fucked to make them and and they learned how to how to understand women by pleasing their mother right so that's it's very it's very interesting how that stuff works so that'll create some issues you see they're gonna have them go into the more avoidant thing or he's gonna be more anxious as a result but with the father it's really about a man's identity and his own confidence in the world and that's how it that's how it affects it so how to get over it how to overcome it I mean it's it is it is what I do in large part I mean a huge part of the stuff I work on with clients is moving them from that sort of anxious and avoidant state and marketplace into the secure one and so it's getting their own mind in the right spot and also having them be able to discern what women are there or close to being there that they can guide also into that arena so yeah I think the thing about the to answer Darius's question the whole cure for anxious attachments pat your spot on as far as the whole idea of you know I'm getting to a place where I call it actually re-fathering yourself because your father is the one who his voice is the one it's going to create confidence in your life and confidence is the opposite of anxiety and so that confident thing of you have to step back and and not not worry about the attachment side of things the only way to I think the to be able to really reclaim that territory is to step back to autonomy or the side of differentiation we're finding out who the hell I am who am I what do I want the whole thing you had said pat about identity identity is absolutely at the core of this whole journey finding out who I really am and the problem is is that the narrative about who you are has been spread out and we listen to so many different voices our mothers our fathers the the culture our teachers all these different people have told us who we are and so it makes us anxious about when I take who I am and I attach with another human being it's like am I good enough do I have what it takes can I handle this and all the questions that are floating around in us haven't been answered you have to step back and be able to answer those questions am I good enough hell yes that's what a confident statement is but I have to be able to answer that question before I can move into a relationship and be attached in a secure fashion I have to do the work of differentiation and and you know it's that mean that was perfectly said Ken and I one one last thing I'd add to it is that a component of this and it's great if you can have it happen on both sides and I do work with guys on on doing this but there's a yeah gotta forgive them do it's as long as you have to forgive your parents basically and for a lot of guys like it's really like you gotta forgive your father and I had that issue I had a lot of issues with my father growing up and now we have like the most incredible relationship there's just so much love between us now and it was amazing to do that and I was very lucky that I was able to transition that relationship um because I didn't realize that even when I was doing it to what extent it changed my own sort of internal yeah to go around about the world hey pat tell me more about what uh what did you have to forgive your father for so my father was he is very very smart guy very very smart guy and um but he basically like ignored me a lot growing up he was a school teacher focused more on that but um and you know there is a there's a period growing up where like I had like one really good friend but I didn't I didn't have any other friends which um and he just would it was like it was like he wanted to be he cared about like me being who'd always asked me about like what the cool kids were doing and stuff like that he kind of elevate my best friend as if my best friend was even supposed to be like like what it was like the better son like he kind of wished that he had him there's all sorts of little things that he did um and I just felt like I couldn't and I couldn't live up to him basically you couldn't measure up to that yeah couldn't measure up to him he wasn't it wasn't like he was and yeah it was just like a little ton of criticisms or ignoring me basically um but the thing is like with my father I mean my father was had no relationship with his parents he was like wasp upbringing they went out and they were socialites and he was kind of left with uh you know the nanny and he had all sorts of trauma of his own that he didn't that he didn't really deal with and so I mean I I kind of fought with him at the end of my time in college and um told him how I felt and we and I kind of took us about three years but we I mean all of that to me is like completely in the past I mean now it's actually like it's bad because he like he elevates me too much now and it's like it's kind of awkward and embarrassing but uh and it's and oftentimes it's a little bit too late you know it's like you needed that you needed that where I'm proud of you back when you're in your the times when you were a kid you know rather than the little bit of criticism and comparison that you got and it's awesome to be able to forgive because that does help us to move on from that place of uh my heart longs for a father's voice that speaks deeply to my soul and my identity um and if I don't get it we have that we have that little bit of bitterness in there but we've got to reclaim that space for ourselves as men I mean he told my mother that he had never he never had a relationship with his father until his father was dying like never had like a conversation with him yeah really and just like that's so that's how he thought it was supposed to be yeah I mean how am I supposed to hold a grudge to someone who was like that like it's not what he wanted he wanted to have a relationship with me just didn't know how yeah it sounds like you put a stop to multi-generational trauma that was going to keep recycling through history absolutely that's awesome good shipman let's refocus a little bit on the red pill as a community and as a concept specific to the manusphere uh are there some major I mean you have some more notes being there as well but can you talk to me a little bit more about some basic concepts that are thought to be fundamental to the red pill community such as AWOL like do you agree with that do not agree with it there's a partial agreement for example with myself AWOL all women are like that I do believe that women are fundamentally similar they're half of the human race they share fundamental biology and physiology they've evolved for a couple hundred thousand years along with us and alongside of us but I don't believe that women are all literally identical and that it's AWOL should be a useful tool so that's my take on it in brief do you have thoughts on AWOL is it abuse is it overusing the community is it maybe is there still use for it what are your thoughts on it well I think all women are like that biologically like no question about it I mean hypergamy is is accurate it's an accurate way to describe the biological impulse of women just like men being interested in younger more fertile women is a biological impulse of all men I mean there there are two sides of the two sides of the same coin there that's like the shadow of men basically that that is all that a guy is going to fixate on just like for a woman all she's going to fixate on is hypergamous impulses so you have the biology that's that's the same but then you have psychology and the psychology is different some of it's modulated by the trauma stuff we were talking about some of it is also just distinct personality types and distinct ways of kind of navigating the world and you're saying then that these are significant ways that affect their behavior yes separate from separate from the fundamentals that they share yes it's it's like another variable that you have to sort of add into the equation I think that from what I'm from you know my my experience with it is that women okay they're hypergamous but how they're going to manifest their hypergamy is dependent on their health their psychological health right where their orientation is but also the means in which they're going to do it are going to also go through the through their personality type and I use you know I'm very public of using MBTI as a really good heuristic system I think it it helps to make a lot quicker calculations in terms of understanding personality patterns but on a higher level there's even beyond personality you have just when people really start to transcend their personality you could say and that's really getting closer to I mean again I'm going to be a little esoteric here but that's really getting close to love and getting close to well as I would say I'm getting close to to God and as that happens a lot of the personality patterns and stuff even start to reduce because you're just like you're just very open and you're and you're much more accepting the people you care about and you know you understand stuff so are all women like that like in some ways yeah in some ways not so I guess not right interesting interesting yeah I found it to be a pretty useful tool or one of the most interesting things I found when I found the Ripple community but I'm falling along and it's it's good to hear this kind of conversation usually this is this would just get shut out you'd get ejected blue bill cock it's fuck out of here all the stuff so how do you have a different opinion I just want to I do want to emphasize though like you like it's very important and this is I think the value in the community is it's it's very important to understand the female shadow like if you don't understand it you will be blind to it and there's a very very good chance you're going to get consumed by it at some point it will it will go after you I mean a good chunk of women have personality disorders including cluster B's which are you know predators posing as house pets after time my my big thing is discernment and it's it's I like to think that mine is very good although it takes time to develop it's this up and I work on with clients but really trying to understand like red flags things about people's behavior this is one of the things not to not to go back to it a little bit but it's one of the things I could tell very quickly about rollo which is that he's a narcissist yep and you can you can just tell from from the way that he engages with stuff so anyway that was yeah I mean and I'm able to kind of pick people who are like good good people and I associate with them it's why I don't I don't get burned by people because I know when someone's like fucked up like I know when there's something wrong with them and I stay away and it's the same thing for women right so it's a lot of its gang guys to not it's not putting women on a pedestal right that's part of it but it's also like really understanding okay this is a woman I can I can invest and I can be honest with this is a woman who's just fundamentally dishonest and there's nothing I can possibly do in the relationship that's going to end well for me and so it's like don't date that woman like that's the answer to it or like apply red pill principles and have fun with that trench warfare well I mean yeah I mean let's yeah and let's be real right when you find some chick that you're really interested in you're sexually attracted to you know she's a covert narcissist and everything else if you decide to make that decision you know that's one of those things where you have to leave her mid love bomb you know because because after the love bomb ends it's it's going all downhill well you're playing with fire is what you're doing and most guys are not going to be able to deal with that and it's even if you're good with dealing with it still is always a risk there's all kinds of real life emotional stuff that can happen where you get sucked in there's legal stuff false domestic violence accusations false rape allegations all kinds of shit it's dangerous yeah I mean for myself I avoid the majority of that you know these days but you know I mean I slipped on a banana peel once or twice that it's so easy to get caught up in in uh I know we're talking about all women are like that and everything and there's a corner of women just like there's a corner of men who are like you said they're immature they have a their shadow they've been dealing with trauma you know and it's like and Pat I love what you're talking about and Sean Smith talks about this as well vetting women and being able to find out if they're able to be held accountable or if they're able to have the character that you want in a in a relationship and that's what's really important and being able to pay attention to what's my gut say what's my intuitive say and moving forward with what I want because most guys get sucked into these horrible relationships because they're going after a relationship for the wrong reason they're going at it for this woman's going to complete me this woman's going to make me feel better about myself this woman's going to make me whole this woman's going to answer the questions that my father didn't you know am I good enough oh she likes me therefore you know I go to her like a moth to the flame and it's like those women that we go to without paying attention to what our guts saying saying run away run away there's red flags um we get caught up in it and that's where we get we get fried and but I'm just what I want to say is that we yeah there's a lot of stories of guys getting burned by women but there's a hell of a lot of good women have good hearts that have a lot of good character and it's our our place to be able to pick and choose from our values from our character to find out the woman that we really uh that really does fit us that fits our values can that was amazing and I want to use it just to jump off on something really fast because this is something I've been thinking about the self-awareness is the most important thing and I think that one of the one of the big issues with you know these sort of red pill circles is that they understand women at least on a certain level but they don't really understand themselves very well and it's the self-awareness that allows you to choose different ways of to kind of change patterns like the reason that everything seems like this is the way it is it's this fixed reality it's like well that's because you are fixed in this way and you refuse to change who you are and change your own perception of things and so they basically like resign themselves to having certain feelings of you know resign themselves to certain trauma and if that's your paradigm then yeah there's no escape and we have a couple of viewer questions here we can get to as well I'd like to get to them and we can hop back into some red pill stuff to have some more questions in the meantime though guys as well before we get to the viewer ones on the text phone lines are open you can call up Steve the Dean here we'll get you on the show the phone number is 515 605 9373 you're welcome to call in hop on the show if you have the balls to man up and call in we'll be we'll probably be nice we won't hang up on you unless unless you're a dick in which case before we get any of that though we have two questions here to get to one is from Michelle Mead I think those viewers on yesterday have a stream I did do you think this trend will continue as Gen Z comes of age since it's suggested they're more conservative this was a little bit earlier in the show I missed this one I think it was a reference to like hookup culture tender bumble online dating the way sex is you know falling off a cliff like these been you know these binges that women go on and men you know using online dating and then you just get burnt out by all this shit so if you have any thoughts on Gen Z and hookup culture Pat let's open a little panel too guys yeah I do actually um so we're going through our divergence right now and so you're seeing some are are leaning more into that area others are are pulling away and they're they are becoming more conservative this is something actually it was something that I mentioned in some of my dialogue with Rolo early on is that if you want to change female behavior men have to change their behavior and so if you're a guy who you know you have your shit together you're in shape you know you're successful you're confident which a lot of which comes from like mass like mastering your sexual urge and whatnot like your women are going to adjust their behavior to you which is one of the things that you know I think a lot of these guys are larping but it is interesting to see the trend of like thought patrolling and these guys who are you know often talk to me talk to me about thought patrolling what what does this mean it's like the thought audit like the tax thing or something else so a thought for those who don't know it's a very Gen Z term that hoe over there just like a hoe it's just like the new the new word for it but it's basically like patrolling them in the sense of you know patrolling their behavior so like a girl will like be posting and some sort of skinny things like tell me what you're think tell me what you're thinking it's like you know and they'll just basically make fun of her and they'll tell her to you know you know they'll tell her to f off like I saw some video the other day a bunch of young guys in Argentina who were surrounding a church basically that's some like naked women were trying to enter you know this is and not to go really far down not like a political thing but but the trend is definitely towards an ascendant right movement right wing movement among the youth is as a reaction to things that are going on right now in culture so but as those guys I mean if this trend continues and the guys become really strong and really like women will adjust their behavior for it because women always want the top guys right like that's it and I think this is the thing people have no vision they have no imagination they're like oh everything's doomed blah blah it's just like like read any part of history like things go in cycles and you and things can always be shifted you can always be shifted and if as a guy you become the strongest one you set the tones you set the morals for society right now we have a bunch of libertines that are and you know frankly I'll be honest like a lot of the generosity that just kind of ruling society and if guys who have their shit together say no women are going to change because what are they going to do they're going to go for like the disgusting guy who wants to have sex with them women never do that well and and what's interesting about that just to kind of dovetail on that a little bit is this idea of of this libertine degeneracy and all the virtue signaling and support of it I mean it's it's insane over the last I don't know probably I'd say three or four years of all the degeneracy that I have seen not just from the left but even for certain people who call themselves red pill in the hemisphere they're they're trying to virtue signal for what is obviously degenerate and psychologically unhealthy behavior in addition to you know the other types of lack of of of healthiness that these behaviors engender so yeah I mean it's it's I mean when it comes to some of this stuff some of these people who virtue signal this they've gone full retard one of the things that's pissed me off by the monastery over the past couple years is that I've been trying to bring in successfully in some cases using the red man group in 21 convention an element a larger element of fatherhood and patriarchy and discussion about these issues and you know you've been guys like black label logic of former panelists in the show he recently said a couple weeks ago on twitter I saw and it because it captured perfectly what I was talking about he said he missed the manuscript when it was about sex drugs and rock and roll or something like that and this is largely a jet in part ingest but it was also a real expression to think of what he was thinking and I don't have a problem particularly with that kind of behavior I've done this myself I know and respect guys who do this I know guys who go through different phases and stages of their life kind of binging on it getting in and out of it and stuff as they're going through the journey in life as a man figuring shit out and taking action it's that these guys want us to respect their involvement in the manosphere but they don't want to respect any involvement from any serious involvement in discussion of fatherhood you know lowering degeneracy and culture and all these other things so it's like it's SJW mentality tolerate me but I'm not going to tolerate you so it's it's just hypocritical fucking position they have it's really retarded it's not masculine and I don't like it at all and it's been changing over the past it's a you know maybe year with remager patriarchs and with the patriarch edition of the conference we had well I mean I think that guys who are obsessed with that stuff especially as they come into middle age like I think it shows that a lot of arrested development going on I am like I help guys get laid like how dare you how dare you like but I but one of the big things for me is everything is about self-awareness so I'm always like like pay attention to how you're feeling throughout this entire process so I'm like I think that you know I not to use the expression but like I think people find like God through the gutter I think it's a very common way and it's a side today when everything has been so promoted sure it's cool if you have some guys who are like all I want is a really serious relationship with the good girl I'm going to focus on all sorts of inner stuff and just go for that and they want to target it you know I'm not saying that they need to go and be promiscuous if that's not what their heart wants but a lot of guys they have insecurities around that so it's like okay go date some girls but like don't look at this stuff as if it's just like pay attention to if it's making you happy or not and what happens with like effectively 100% of my clients is that on a you know year timeline like after we're working together right but like even during the process they can feel their orientation change and so they start to get they start to get girls and then you know maybe date a couple of girls at the same time and then they're like well actually I want more meaning in my life and then they move beyond that and I think that that is the real problem is you have a bunch of like you know nihilists who never really who were like never felt cool or whatever and they're so they have no sort of sense of meaning in their life and they actually think that meaning is like some sort of sign of of weakness like because they it's again like we were talking about before there's like a trauma aspect to it so um so yeah I mean well I think that when you when you're talking about that too one of the easy ways to spot these types of guys are the guys that are rational at the expense of their emotional side you know these guys can talk about the things from a theoretical sense they can talk about it from a rational sense but the second that you start having this conversation about how this affects the emotional man how how this effect you know how the ethics affect his emotional well-being I think that's when all of a sudden that's when all of a sudden they start falling by the wayside and that's when it's easy to go okay that voice on the internet that person there is a narcissist and they're only caring about their cult personality they don't really care about you know the ethical requirements of you know what they need to have for their audience yeah yeah I think a lot of them is shoe ethics because they see it I mean if you don't have any sense of meaning in the world and if you think people are just animals then I mean it's all like let me get what I can get for myself but the funny thing is like I don't I don't personally find any I mean I know that we talk about dialogue and whatnot and dialogue is a good thing like we should definitely like talk to people on this stuff but to me it's like that's no different than the kind of shit that comes out of the worst institutions in the world right now like it it really just like it's the same kind of stuff that promotes like it's you know teenage girls doing anal and whatnot like it's it's really to me it's like I don't have any sort of I don't I don't understand these people I think there's a very big difference between we're like you know do what you want with your life but people who like actually put doing all this stuff as like a god like that is the meaning of life is to seek as much hedonistic pleasure as possible I think to answer Michelle's question I think a big part of this is is that the somebody out there and this is my hope for the younger generations is somebody out there seeking some kind of wisdom they're starting to watch you know it's it said that the uh the smart man learns from uh his mistakes the are the why that's the how to sorry the wise man learns from his mistakes the other the smart man learns from others mistake not something like that but anyway they're learning from somebody else they're learning the wisdom these these a whole generation is screwing them themselves up they're messing up their lives they're doing all this stuff they're they're and I my hope is that the younger generation is going to see I don't want to get into that kind of debt I don't want to get into that kind of ruin I don't want to get into that kind of promiscuity that just is just kind of erasing your soul I don't want to deal with this stuff and my hope is that some people are actually watching some of the younger people and they're choosing let's do this differently let's find let's find out how we can do this in a wise fashion well here's a fun a fun follow-up question are we suffering from the sins of our fathers the boomers uh I mean in my opinion you know there's there's very obvious versions of this like social security being beyond bankrupt but also I mean that that's just a political and financial issue I mean there's issues I think in my opinion there's parallels to that in in culture that we're feeling do you have any thoughts on that as far as Elliott had had his conversation at the patriarch about the you know the degenerate age and doing relationship in a degenerate age and you wonder how much the uh how much the boomers of which I'm at the very end of the boomers the young boomer and uh and it's like uh man I remember growing up it was it was the time this is where the the sexual revolution happened this is where feminism really started to grow this is where you know people were really questioning the vietnam war I mean it was like there was a lot going on and tons of things shifted in our culture and so like blaming the boomers for the beginning of this sure you know they all it's a it's what where it all started to become more degenerate to become more open become more um I don't know what else you'd call it I don't even know if I'm answering your questions but it's it was a saying I heard recently just that every generation suffers from the sins or lack thereof or their fathers yeah and I had not seen it put that way before aside from the boomer stuff that's well I think that I think that when it comes to the boomers and I think when it comes to a lot of this I mean I think it's easy to blame the other generations because you know as a gen as a gen X or you know I'm going to have millennials blaming me and I blame millennials for a lot of things but I think that the reality is that I think that when we talk about generational disparities I think the biggest mistake that we make in most cases is not discussing the lack of multi-generational mentorship within our own families and within our own communities and I really think that that's been the biggest tragedy when it comes to masculinity across the mass the manisphere regardless of the trod is because the lack of multi-generational mentorship when it comes to this sort of you know grooming strong masculine men to be strong masculine men the issue that I see with it is that because we don't have that every generation of men is becoming less and less masculine they're becoming less and less psychologically grounded they're becoming you know they don't have uh you know mental or psychological resilience and so you see a lot of these people they act out in more and more extreme ways I mean you look at a lot of these mass shooters for example not to segue too far but over 96 of them come from broken homes where they didn't they weren't raised by their biological father and just as importantly they weren't raised by their biological mother and their biological father in a home in the bonds of marriage right so we didn't have mass shootings prior to that but when you start to see societal breakdown what ends up happening is is when you destroy the family you you see these massive societal unforeseen consequences and you look at a lot of minority communities and you know they were the canary in the coal mine and now they're now these these same social um plagues are are affecting every community now and that's that's a serious issue and it's an issue that that I think is one that the manisphere is in the best place to address but the silence is almost deafening there yeah yeah I mean did someone say something I said we'll put okay yeah no I'm I'm like I love that like that was that was really spot on um I'm gonna be like a little bit of a boomer defender here for a second or at least uh try to contextualize some things because I I had the same so so you're saying you're gonna be a trans boomer I'm gonna be I'm a trans boomer right now yeah I mean I mean Pat when you get into that like I was just thinking about you know who raised the boomers the greatest generation right where did they fuck up along the way the big mistake that made and I'm I'm controlling this conversation from the sense of ignoring any potential um subversion and what not that influenced ideas that came about but focusing on the on like the boomers in their state of mind I think it's really tough for a lot of us to understand what happened in the first half of the 20th century you had countries that basically like controlled the you know controlled the world we were technology everything was moving forward and then a hundred million people were killed like we had massive massive wars and it created a very very like like you know we we talk about the greatest generation you know going through a depression they and also the fact that they were in factories and stuff so they maybe weren't around as much with their kids right the story that you hear from the boomers growing up is they had all these fathers who were tough guys but a lot of them are very very you know they they were not like spending a lot of time with their kids and what not the kids kind of had a lot of free reign and and if you just look at like the state of society there is a big there's like a lot of trauma there's a lot of trauma in society and I think that there is a natural inclination for them to try to like have some individual individuality come out and to try to like open up their hearts right because they've maybe felt that that was really repressed the problem is that the way they went about it was terrible they basically took all these things and you know maybe we need to move to a different level of consciousness so we prevent the wars and stuff from happening again and so that we can relate to people on a different level maybe you know the fifties everyone idolizes the fifties but there's and there are a lot of good things to it but a lot of it was is also like marketing like there is a lot of also repression and people very unhappy in relationships everything was very very forced because everyone thought the world was going to end so yeah it used to live in fear of constantly blowing up in the soviet union I know my dad my parents in there okay especially my dad he grew up in Miami so they used to do drills where you get under the desk as a kid oh yeah the bombs are going to drop which is just you know fucking useless yeah so so they had this whole thing and they were they were trying to to find but their mistake was that they thought that everything that came before them was wrong and bad and so they had this big backlash to it and so they they threw away things when it came to all sorts of things that had grounded the like countries for centuries all sorts of political policies and they kind of embraced almost like a complete destruction of society at least on the higher levels right or they were just naive to how things could have consequences like they shut down their brains right they were so open with their hearts to shut down their brains and this might be like the sexual liberation we've been for women which all these betas thought would get them or less masculine thought that would get them all this pussy but the opposite happened yeah i mean relationships like i i think that there is a there's a potential and i think that we we can have a reconciliation like it's not going to go back to how it was before in my opinion it's never going to go back to and what was before right there's all different ages that i know why would you want that anyway because look where it ended up yeah exactly exactly the problems there were problems that caused this backlash the problem was that the pendulum swung too far in the direction so i think our real role here is to like go back to the roots and see wait a minute this stuff was good right but then there are also some problems here and acknowledge where the problems were and and build from there and and i think the guys who do that i mean we're going to inherit the world and we're going to build a new world and i think it's really amazing the sort of that's like the amazing part about this community is that there is this this side of it of people who are really like creative and and driven to see a better society better relationships between men and women and better nations that's what i do that's what i think about every day and work on with my company well several have now i like that perspective because it's like uh some people are sitting there you know with the label enjoy the decline this is all going to hell in a hand basket and all that and it's really being represented by all the different movies that are out there that are the dystopian future that this is what the future looks like it's all falling apart but i love the idea that there's there are um there's a conversation going about how do we make this thing how do we empower men how do we bring back our soul how do we bring back our presence in our homes in in our community and i just love that idea because that's going to change everything yeah you know can i've always find it difficult too to understand how anyone man or woman could enjoy watching their country burn down slowly like i don't that there is no enjoying the decline it's just it's beyond stupid no because you're sitting there if you don't have kids i got kids and i don't have grandkids yet but man i want the best thing for them for ever i want them to have the best and be able to uh be too for me to provide as much as i can to be able to create a world that is is really powerful and abundant and beautiful yeah i don't have any kids yet that i know of but i just love my country and i love the and there there's problems with it obviously that i've you know very sharp criticisms criticisms of but i love this place this is where i grew up it's my home i've traveled pretty well around the world and it's still my favorite place on the planet uh Poland i guess would be a close second but uh yeah this country is you know it's fantastic you know it's given to me for free all i did was i was just born here and i inherited you know very positive strong masculine decisions that have been going on for generations in this country america is one of the oldest republics in the world now and it's obviously influenced the entire west so no world we have some more uh i don't have any phone line questions but we got some more chat text ones here to pop in um we'll get to these uh one by one order this is from earlier in the show omar tim i like his little uh icon there for his thumbnail omar tinoco tinder do you ever challenge yourself and apply the game toward high value women at cold approach panera starbucks i'm guessing he was referring to me of anyone that wants to help him in this and is he saying that uh high value women are at panera bread apparently in starbucks it's oddly specific well there you go achievement unlocked and mystery solved yeah let me just go to let me get off the show and go to starbucks i've actually yeah i've met some good i've actually fucked you going out of starbucks uh one in london one time was pretty epic during a uh daygain conference which is pretty cool but yeah i've even a poll and actually met a girl not a starbucks uh really hot really hot uh polish chick it was it was great i didn't have bang in her but i wanted to date with her and then it's kind of fucked off eventually i was in a bad mood it's like i'm out of here but yeah there's i mean women go to all sorts of places that are have all sorts of personalities and stuff like that was talking about see i meet women at during the day and stuff and personally you know i don't go to panera it's been a while but starbucks coffee shops walking around anywhere like that yeah you can meet women all the time and they they might be shitty quality too though i mean women on tinder are women on seeking arrangements you know being sugar babies are women on bumble pretending to want relationships are women in bars getting shift-faced are women at the next day drinking starbucks to heal the hangover so it's it's a whole cycle of life and i so i'm in orlando orlando such as is a super diverse world city they call it um it's got this like certain classification in uh you know certain studies and you see this i see that i see i would literally see the same girl on tinder bumble seeking arrangements instagram and then like six months later i say to bar and so i know what kind of life now this is not this is only this is a very specific subset to see that but i've seen that repeatedly and it at first needs to blow my mind i'm like holy shit but now i know that there's just you know different levels of this some girls would tinker with these things some girls won't do any of this stuff believe it or not a lot of women i think most of them don't use these apps and stuff like that maybe they will or they did for short times get you know railed or tinker around with it but yeah you can find all kinds of women in all kinds of places and i don't think uh so i'll do that but i don't think starbucks is you know special or anything like that no i'll tell you this the special place is that you find hotels that actually have lounges so i've heard so i can either confirm nor deny that yeah we have some really hot women at the uh poland convention they'll tell on saturday night specifically they're just hanging out the lobby it was interesting i wonder what they were doing there i wonder if we'll go cultural enrichment yeah exactly i'm scrolling through uh here's a little comment i love hunter dre what he watches his stream a lot he's a host of our patreon exhibition small groups like foe that's his return of excellence war room etc work and turn that tide and get more role models out there foe is a proud sponsor of rmg in 21 fuck yeah hunter drew is the man he is a man yeah yeah i'll look through the comments here i've not been keeping up with them we got a call online anthony yeah let's take it let's do it all right area code 732 you on what's your name what's your question oh look can you hear me what's your name what's your question man uh i'm darrys oh hey darrys hey man so from the chat next call in man yeah i i put in the super chat earlier uh how to deal with uh attachments how to deal with the anxious attachment disorder can you hear me yeah yeah can you just ask and answer the question when we say what is going on i've been quiet please man answer the question what is your question that's why we're quiet so you can ask the question so what is your question young up i wonder if he i don't think he heard us maybe uh he just heard silence yeah it sounds like his his cell connection might have been bad sometimes that happens when the cell towers don't do it right then he'll survive anyway let's hop back into the red pill stuff pat what are some other major criticisms or disagreements you have or agreements with the red pill community at large or you could go into the you know world's version of it whatever you want to do on that there's two different coins of that or sides well i just i think that it's the so i'll i wrote about this a little bit ago i think that for guys who who are in a really really low state like they're near suicide or like their entire life has fallen apart and pretty much all their all they have in them is negativity and and fear and complaining i think that that's a like a lot like those guys for one this is and this is well proven they're the ones who are most susceptible to cult leaders because cult leaders promise them certainty and something to kind of put on to and that certainty would come in the form of like secret knowledge and things like that right correct correct yeah yeah join my patreon you'll get secret knowledge on it it's kind of nda right yeah i know i resemble that so i i think that for guys who are at the very end of the route that can be like i mean it's better than suicide right obviously it's to have something like if your entire world's collapsed to have someone who promises you something like that can bring you up a little bit energetically but the problem is that you know you have in the case of rollo in particular is that they keep them there so it's not like a stepping stone it's not like i'm going to meet you where you're at sure go and complain go vent like guys who are at a very low level they mostly they mostly want to feel a little bit more power which they get from as we just said secret knowledge and whatnot but they also just want to complain like and complaining for them and giving them the space to complain it's that's like like if you were to have a conference and you bring a bunch of those guys in there just like allowing them to complain and vent they'd feel better after the conference but i don't do that it's a coping mechanism it sounds like it was bombing if i could interject real quick here i think that's really one of the biggest issues that i have with a lot of content creators that cater to the in-cell community is that they do exactly what pat steadman's talking about they they give them this idea of certainty and then they keep them in that area and they and they retard their growth and i mean that in the in the true sense i don't mean that in a in a defamatory sense at all so a lot of these guys because i've seen guys in the in-cell community who just aren't in cells but they're going through a trauma or a tragedy in their life where they think that that's their self perception and then they they can't move out of it and they they get stuck in like this this uh gerbil run psychological narrative of negative self-talk and that's where they think they're at and there are content creators out there not just rollo and not just some of the others but there are people out there they want to keep them in that spot they want to keep them addicted and they want to keep them kind of at the the patreon tit so to speak so that they can't grow so that these guys become dependent psychologically and emotionally on these content creators yeah uh darry's calling back in let me see if we can patch him back in darry is uh we're opening a lineup for you dawg go ahead what do you got for it i was listening to you guys earlier and you brought up a lot of good points uh my my dad wasn't around for my family when i was a kid uh my parents were never married uh my dad was never around hmm sorry to hear that man i haven't met my dad in 17 years so if he's alive which he might not be i'm not really sure what kind of relationship we could have do you have a specific question in line with this that we can answer i already forgave him but caller can you hear us the big question is how do i have how do i have self-worth that isn't contingent on result yeah that's a great question the question you know how do i have self-worth that is not contingent on results that may i may are outside of you like how do i drop outcome dependency well i think that when it comes to that and i'll i'll kind of spear head this a little bit first and foremost you have to look at your life and look at what you do that's successful right now because the reality is is that any man to have self-worth requires results so the thing you got to look at is is it what are you doing right now that is successful for you i mean obviously you were capable of calling on the phone so you made enough money to either have a cell phone service or something like that i mean some of us got to start at a real basic level but the point is is that you know everybody's talking about well you you don't want to have results the reality is is that i think pat said it earlier in the beginning of the stream that you know men are based you know who they are is based on what they do it's based on you know men are men of action and successful men are men of successful action and so look at the results of what you're doing right right now and then try to slowly but surely create more successful things that you can do in your life regardless of where you're at you know if you can't do four push-ups today well you know keep doing push-ups and then maybe tomorrow you know or next week or next month you're doing 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 push-ups the point is is that it's consistency so i think that the real big issue is the more consistent you can be the more successful you're going to be but it all requires effort you're never going to say i'm a successful man when you can't demonstrate any kind of past success in your life mm-hmm and darius i'd also jump in and say that one of the like all of us are on a journey and when i was 21 years old when i was first getting involved with this stuff like if i went to a party with people i didn't know i'd have a panic attack in 20 to 30 minutes i'd have to go home i couldn't i couldn't be around people i think everybody there was judging me people didn't like me it's a i mean now it's like i can make a friend in like a couple of minutes at a party i don't have any anxiety at all but the point is that this is a journey and so we want to get results and results come from it but if you can really enjoy the process of learning and changing yourself and learn to just embrace the fact that at times things are going to be difficult like you've already experienced a lot of difficulties but things can get better if you want them to get better and this is life i mean and i think it's a beautiful thing like i look back at these times when i had so many problems and like i look back at it with nostalgia because it's like i was just like a kid who was lost in the world didn't have a good relationship with his father his girlfriend broke up with him didn't know how to talk to women it's like enjoy the journey man enjoy the journey even when it's tough because it makes it more rewarding in the end when you do get there the sweet and sour it yeah i want to take a little bit of a different turn than dj did i think what you're talking about with uh you know the whole thing of act uh action accomplishment mastery those things are definitely uh things that you accomplish with our masculinity but when it comes to self-worth i think it depends it's less dependent on those external things or those accomplishments you got to be able to find self-worth from an internally validated place i am good enough i am worthy i am valuable i am acceptable and that that journey comes from not from winning football games or not from women liking me or not from getting straight a's it's it's i am valuable and worthy we have to find that from an internally frame of reference and that's a really important thing to be able to consider and can that would be that would be things like self-dialogue uh self-belief and absolutely listening to what the inner critic says to me the inner critic is always saying your piece of shit or your your stupid idiot or whatever and really challenging that because that whole internally dial internal dialogue of who the hell am i is a really powerful part of that goes back to the identity it goes back to the narrative it goes back to you know um who am i what do i want what and so that's got to come from an internal place and um for sure yeah and ken just to kind of jump off of that a little bit one of the and this is really it's really counterintuitive but i struggled for a long time with like productivity and it's still something i'm working on i wouldn't say i'm exactly where i want to be yet but i would really beat myself up i get into like self-destructive habits like years ago you know i'd watch porn i'd like play video games and i was just like not doing stuff that i needed to do um especially when i'd started a business right there was like things that like all sorts of crap was coming to face me and it was really easy for me to beat myself up because like dude like like like get out there and make money get out there and do things what actually made a really big shift for me was to stop being such an asshole to myself and so yeah so when something when i wouldn't when i would like do something bad i would like forgive myself basically say like well you know what like it's like it's okay it's okay like you're human you make mistakes and it wasn't like it wasn't like i was like rationalizing the way the behavior i was very aware of you know the negative aspects of it but because i released that pressure i had like i realized that because you are you like manage yourself right so if you're like a if you're like a bad manager and a lot of times you know when you don't have somebody like if you have a bad relationship with your father right you have that critical voice as ken was saying in your head that's just kind of going after you like if you if you yell at someone all the time like they're on edge and they're looking for escapes right so if you actually like chill out a little bit and say cool take the day off relax yeah and you allow yourself to be bored and just like to be okay like you're actually going to start to to do more things and you're going to start to feel a little bit better because the truth is everybody here man has so many everybody has their demons right absolutely i thought we're all perfect masculine red pill men pat no question on the red pill this is a community that's supposed to be dedicated to the truth the truth about men women sexual dynamics you know all these things right why is that community at times seems to not be focused on the truth and there seems to be an echo chamber cult like personality is trying to drive the narrative stopping open debate while speaking out the outside of the mouth that they're all for it you know it's an open place everybody can contribute unless i say your purple pill or whatever blue pill i mean you've been called the ultimate purple pill shill of all time and shit ironically you're wearing a purple shirt purple shirt yeah do you think that wasn't deliberate cool yeah good oh good no man that's an L i appreciate right there son but yeah i mean it's i've always been dedicated to my company and honestly it's something me and rollo had a really even over the years a lot of back and forth on is it this never i never felt and there's a reason i think it wasn't respected because he was never about the truth he was about his own message that he was presenting his truth and i've and that's why i wanted to get you on the show today one of the reasons another guess if that's he likes to fend molly and stuff now richard granan this community the man is very self should be focused on truth in part as well as men masculinity and fatherhood these issues and then other components too intersexual dynamics politics can have a play you know men have very deep beliefs about religion how does that interplay into becoming a man masculinity what you believe about the world so what are your thoughts in that community that sub community of the man is fair in its relationship with truth and the focus on truth and well varying off from that well i you know i think the funny thing is that they talk about truth a lot but they actually have a very bad relationship with truth because i mean it's just you know they had one view of the world shattered and then they did the exact same thing again with just a different set of specifics but it's the same sort of it's very like you know people who seek control right it's because they lack internal control and and that that comes with ideas as well it's like if you feel completely uncertain about everything in life you're going to cling on to an ideology so the idea that like this is the way it is and like you question it you know you're fucking purple pill whatever like that's not a commitment to the truth because the truth is constantly i mean in specifically too you're saying you're talking about a person being labeled purple pill not an idea and those are two such issues no 100 100 percent um as if you have a commitment to the truth you have a commitment to allowing your ideas to evolve because there was constantly new things that you're taking and i mean i i like i'm look and not just not just evolved but yeah yeah i mean things that i believed years ago are i no longer you know believe it or at least i don't believe it in the same way and i maybe understand it in a certain context differently but like it's constantly expanding i mean one of the things i'm doing now and this is going to like for a lot of guys it's it's like i don't know who's going to follow me in the master with it i don't really care it's my own journey but like i'm get i'm exploring like energy manipulation and whatnot it's really weird esoteric stuff but this is kind of like as i keep peeling back layers i keep finding more and more stuff and i'm like well i'm curious about this let me see how does this work right and so you know i don't know where it's going to take me but my commitment to the truth at least my truth is that i'm going to keep exploring going to keep being curious and i think if you stop being curious you're fucked well i like the i like the subtlety the subtlety of it right i mean it might take on it in very very brief is that truth should be a focus on reality itself as best as we can understand it using our brains and cognition and emotions and all these things and yeah i think there's been there's always been this like very loosey-goosey relationship with like everything in the red color being amoral and a religious and a political and all this stuff and it's you know it almost seems like a reality or a epistemology like there's not there's not a more i've felt since i found it that this community has lacked a more stringent or a strict respect for a reason and a commitment to literally rationality and a focus on reality and not more explicit epistemological so theory of knowledge principles on these issues and in my opinion that's one of the reasons that separate from the trauma and like you mentioned the breaking with reality a former version of it that they thought the blue pill yeah they don't have the it's lacking the philosophic rigor to maintain over time a focus on truth well and i think i think that one of those things when it comes to that though is that a lot of the people that are having those challenges number one and and i don't mean any disrespect to atheists per se but they don't have any sense of god they don't have any sense of family they don't have close family connections or they've never had close family connections they don't want to guide them to life they have nothing correct so they come up with these ideas on their own or they come up with them from primarily other youtubers and they don't have good strong mentorship or people willing to challenge their ideas in their personal space and so what ends up happening is that they create these echo chambers and they become more extreme and and i think really that's one of the reasons that we have to keep talking because some people have asked me like well like pat why do you even bother like talking to these guys why do you even bother like dealing with this stuff and it's like well because there are a lot of guys out there who don't have like Darius you know they don't have a father in their life they have also they're very susceptible to things and if you just seed the ground because it's like i'm above it it's like you're not really doing people a service like every now and then at the very least you have to like come back and re-engage and and kind of give people at the very least an alternate perspective that they can choose on their own if they'd like to go down that path i can't even tell you how many messages i get a couple every week from people that are like thank you for what you're doing thank you for the things that you're saying i was really caught up in all this negative stuff like breath of fresh air and i'm sure a lot of you guys get the same sort of stuff it's it's like it's a marketplace of ideas it's a war of ideas you see the ground it's a war it's a war you know i posted a dm i got today last night on instagram i posted it today up on my twitter it was a guy who'd been watching like me invites to find molly newton convention those interactions in the red man group in the interview to yesterday uh richard granon the world of stuff how extreme i was apparently he first considered it extreme how i responded to kicking roll out of all the stuff now he's doubling back on that he's almost uh he's not apologizing but he's he's a lot more understanding of why i did what i did and how intense it was and i risky it was and it was very risky what it took to do that and i really want the man's for be a place where this this war of ideas is more open and more civil and it's not tightly controlled behind the scenes and manipulated to bizarre well directions yeah we need to not have it be a war of ideas what we need to have it be is a discussion and an evolution of ideas because you know only through discussion agreement and disagreement are we really going to distill you know the nuggets of wisdom from what we all bring to the table and i think that for us it is a discussion but there's you know it's it's one of those things that if there are certain groups that they're just going to you know ad hominem you out of there and you know well you just there at a certain point you can't that's what i learned like people have said that to me before like why don't you go talk like just like you know like deal deal with things with rollo you know when you guys have a conversation it's like dude i tried doing that try doing that for six months doesn't some people just don't want to have it and it's all right you know we can have these conversations this is like this is awesome like this is awesome and this is productive and i think that i think that just like you know the magnitude of like all of us talking right here like it speaks i think it's the vast majority of guys it speaks it speaks for itself like who who cares more and who's more aware yeah yeah i think that cares what drives the civility of discourse and discussion and a lack of civility including if it's covert and not obvious is what drives this rage and in the fight where it's a really it gets to be really nasty like what you have with rollo there's reason there's reasons in turn out like that you had a much more positive i think approach to debate and discussion that wasn't going to fly with them my opinion that's why that's why i played out in real life like it did who knows how many times dozens hundreds of times you guys go back and forth yeah i think everyone who's dealt with them as it says had the same experience yeah i just think that you know when we start talking about it being a war a war of ideas man when i the war we're all in the trenches and this is not just a war this is a war for lives i mean men are committing suicide right and left it's like when it really comes down to it you know how are we empowering men how are we saving their souls how are they giving them an identity and then setting them free to be able to be the men that they've been designed to be and to live powerfully in their world and and that's what we want that's what i want and and getting caught up in you know these little battles or these little um whatever the hell you want to call them spats it's bad it's like we're losing our energy our energy needs to go to the real conversation about how to actually become strong men yeah and i think that a lot of times though you'll find and i and again i'm no stranger to this you know because for a lot of people i'm the great satan um you had a major fallout about a year ago with turd flinging monkey yeah i had i've had a major fallout with turd flinging monkey i had to deal with some people that were shilling a a scam to the migtau community um there've been other people that were doxers within the community i mean i've had to deal with a lot of things and i've taken out a lot of trash and so as a result there is you know there's a lot of people out there that they're like oh my god dj is a great satan and so i think that at the end of the day the reality is though is that it's not so much that these are spats is these are tantrums you have these people that that you know they're these narcissists these insecure people these people who who they're not interested in internal validation they're not interested in helping the community they're only interested in their brand by any means necessary and what ends up happening is is they create these rifts purposefully to be distractions to men who are really trying to do the work and you know i mean i notice even like i filed this google lawsuit i put out a new website i've got a new facebook page now i'm doing some different things and what happened is is that you know yeah there's a new brand of of of tantrums come out i'm ignoring it because it's a waste of my time but the point is is that when it comes to these types of things i think it's important that you know we focus on our mission we focus on our dialogue we focus on civil disagreement where we do and we keep moving forward because regardless you know at the end of the day you know men don't just walk outside when the sun is shining i mean sometimes there's a storm and a blizzard you got to go out anyway and that's that's our job so there it is i can't follow up on what DDJ just said too that this year for me well i think as long as conflicts and conflict resolution are a minority of regular activity and content creation and discussion in any community of men particularly the man of spear and in the subgroups that's fine that's normal and i think among masculine men that should be expected we compete we probably have conflict uh internet communication in particular you know things that lack facial uh facetime like literally if there's no if there's not skype or a chat room like this if it's just twitter it's just text and now that lacks tone that lacks uh there's no obviously it's not a face-to-face conversation with more empathy and care and responsibility for the words coming out of your mouth if you say the wrong thing on twitter no one's going to punch in the face because they physically can't if you say the wrong thing is someone's face in real life they can get really angry and punchy in the face so as long as it's a minority of what happens and that's been my experience for 13 years of operating a business and a conference in this space in this community 17 now that felt around the world five countries and all the immediate content creation and internet dialogue that's happened uh conflict that i've experienced this year is extremely unusual uh by and large every year it's this content content content message message message mission mission mission mission so i think inevitably it was going to happen at this scale and i think that's that you know it was inevitable and what have happened sooner or later anyway and then i think it won't happen again for a long time yeah but given how old i am at 31 and what i'm doing in this space it'll probably happen again i don't know what i'm someday five years from now 10 years from now 15 who knows so that's those are my thoughts on it and i do think conflict resolution is important when it's not just some bullshit spat of personalities that there's real difficulties not the difficulties but uh real shady shit real macavelian and malevolent malevolent behavior specifically not even macavelian yet but malevolent or there's something really wrong going on and i think that's what was happening to the manifesto i think that's one of the reasons mike siren has dropped out and you know he said the manifesto was like a digital ghetto and i don't blame him for saying that um he's been you know he's been he's been not a speaker at a conference but he's attended recently at the patriarch edition and he was actually very surprised and impressed with what he saw not just with our event you know thanks but specifically like this community of men gathering he hadn't seen that before come out in the space and that's where i want this whole community to go is his positive healthy discourse uh where you know most of the time it's his positive good shit and then sometimes we fight and we work it out well i think i think any movement in the beginning it starts off with kind of noticing problems and identifying problems and bringing more awareness to them but at a certain stage you have to propose solutions yeah how dare you and we're at that we're at that point now yeah no doubt no doubt yeah i just want to talk about theory all day and circle jerk the blockpost we'll just make sure you use european grip i don't even want to know what that means oh god well if it's french grip it's another dude so well guys we're getting pretty close to the two-hour mark here uh pat you know can you're new to the chef appreciate coming on today pat you're the special guest that's focused on today do you have any closing thoughts ideas criticisms of the red pill your relationship to with your work anything you want to get out um well i'd say a lot of gratitude because for all those sort of beef i've had i wouldn't i wouldn't be where i am without it um you know honestly rollo gave me a lot of attention so definitely i i owe my success to rollo in a certain certain degree um would have been a little bit longer going so that's pretty funny it is kind of funny when you think about it um no but i but i am really appreciative of the space in general i mean for all the sort of you know drama and whatnot made some really good friends from there met a lot of really high integrity men a lot of really smart men um men who you know like you anthony people who are going to be changing the world like you know you're already doing it with 21 convention uh it's it's it's a really great place and i think that we tend to take it for take it for granted we think this is just a very small place it's not a big deal i mean there's people who have like i'm not even a really i'm not a small county where but i'm not like a big account and i've had like clients talking to like an uber driver and he's talking about you know my work and people are really familiar with the community like there is a really big like it's it's going out like it's it we are the cafe culture of the of the 21st century and all the ideas that like like the ideas change europe with the enlightenment and whatnot they start off by people like having coffee and wine and and drinking in like dark corners of you know alleys and whatnot it's the same stuff that's going on right now and i think we should all be very proud to be part of it it's making history absolutely man i think it's a masculine renaissance that we're seeing the beginning of is a necessary counter punch and counter push to all the effeminate conduct and the effeminate feminization of the culture that's a depolarization more specifically too that's caused a lot of problems a lot of a lot of unhappiness a lot of misery conflict and drama and single motherhood and all this crap broken families so i appreciate having you on man this is great love to have you back again sometime thank you so much for for the opportunity anthony i appreciate it it's great talking with all of you guys dj ken absolutely pat so thank you you guys too and uh next time steve don't talk so much steven chillin i don't know i don't know or understand everything he's saying so i'm just listening oh come on now he's smarter than he he's smarter than he lets on a lot smarter yeah oh i i don't i don't recognize what he's saying so i can't talk about all right guys a little wind down the show everybody thank you for your time today watching as well as to you know being on panel uh ken curry pat stephen steve the dean williams ddj links to all the websites and stuff will be in the description underneath this video most of them already are but i'll update it with more after the show we'll see you guys next week at 11 a.m sharp eastern time on saturday and you can tune in to the patreon show most thursdays at 8 p.m eastern thursday night on the red man group channel see you guys later peace out