 You're welcome back. I was not missing in action all the time, but you know today is the week for the ladies By the way, we we had men's day during the weekend It's unfortunate that the same day that men are being celebrated the only day that men are being celebrated is also World Toilet Day And not a people watching us here now women who are watching us Do not even remember that they should say congratulations or happy men's day to us Like you you didn't say anything Well, I wish the happy international men's day to Okay, well we did tell you that we're going to be talking about the state of the nation as it were and we have someone who is joining us here right now Barista, good morning and welcome to the program Good morning. Thanks for having me All right. Yeah, I was in the conversation were about is that having stemmed up from Statements that was made by the former governor of Cross River State Governor Donald Duke where he said that no political party can save Nigeria, do you agree to this statement? How do you react to it? well my my reaction is that political parties are vehicles for aspiration to political power and Therefore the political parties do not in themselves Guarantee that a state will be good or will be well run as it were It is the individuals the individual candidates that are running on the platform of these political parties that will bring their competence and Capacity to the governance process And so it is the individuals that we look up to and it is the individuals who should talk and tell us about the programs that they intend to implement using the party platform to pull back Nigeria from This green and bitter moment that we appear to be in to a better Society that God blessed with plenty of mineral and human resources I think that is the individual that will give hope to the Nigerian people about the deteriorating security situation the economic activity and so on how to tackle it is indeed Squarely placed on the individual not the party Although the party is a platform to work with that individual ascent to power But parties have some kind of Ideology in the party and if you want to come out with a manifesto as an aspirant or as a candidate of any party It has to align also with the kind of Ideology of the party. So how can an individual make an impact when the party Might be having an ideology that is different from what he has in mind to do Will the influence of the party not bear him down in such a way that he cannot succeed if even if he has good intentions for the country Now unfortunately our parties in Nigeria. I'm not entirely I'm not necessarily based on ideologies if you look at You know the major parties what is really the ideology, you know, they are basically populist parties that talk about Making Nigeria a better place that is basically what all the politicians are saying and if you do a Study of their manifesto you really do not see much of a difference is what you can describe as you know Distinction difference without distinction as it were because they are basically saying the same thing You know and they are basically giving populist ideas about how to make Nigeria greater You know politicians don't really join political parties based on ideology Otherwise you won't find them moving from one political party to another what they are moving for is to grant them opportunity of actualizing their political interests and perhaps now Showcasing their personal competences using the political party as a platform That is precisely what happens in Nigeria or like perhaps not our clients where parties are known for their ideologies And are identified with such ideologies and hardly do people move from one political party to the other So we don't have such clear divides in Nigeria And so what happens in Nigeria is that individuals seek for accommodation to find a platform to seek to Ascent to power and that has not really changed part of the points that don't know Duke made while he was talking over the weekend is Judicial reforms according to him and I quote the only hope that we can have is judicial reforms He says judicial reforms is more pertinent than political reforms How do you react to this part of the statement? well, there is need for The judiciary and the court system to be seen as a last as I will popularly see the last hope of the common man You see section six of our constitution vests the judicial powers of the Nigerian state in the courts And so that is a formal option that we go to seek resolution of justiciable matters however The judiciary itself does not appear to be totally Insulated from the entire society You find that in the appointment process of judicial officers a lot of influence gets to coming from the executive so precisely The executive branch also to a great extent, you know influences who becomes appointed as a charge And when they get in, you know, it now depends on the individual an individual commitment to be able to resist you know subtle pressures Reload imagine from the executive branch as we can see in some of the political decisions In recent times in Nigeria take the most in that case for a for example, it has continued to generate a lot of a lot of Controversy, you know, and people tend to resonate with the dissenting opinion of just the cc was of the supreme court in that case because It was quite surprising that somebody who came a distant force was now declared as the winner of the election And he throws up the problem of legitimacy and I'm sure if you go to email state that problem still persists So really the judiciary can help but there's a limit to quit the judiciary can be used To solve political questions. You can't impose, you know The judicial solutions or legal solutions to political questions I personally do not believe that the judiciary or the court system should supplant The powers of the citizens to choose their leaders. So for the judiciary to continue to resolve those issues and then to impose Whoever in their opinion should now become the political office holder and whether it's the state of the nation or the parliament or whatever is itself Also a problem is a negatimes Those genuine aspects of democracy. So the judiciary is good, you know Once they maintain their independence and are autonomous and are properly funded Then the judiciary can really flourish as it flourishes in other places in the UK, for instance During the world wars, I mean the wars the courts were Enforcing the laws because they believe the law never changes. The law is just there until it is changed by the law Give up. So in cases like liver siege and Anderson One of the greatest legal minds are we call Lord Etkin said that whatever the circumstance even in times of war Even in times of crisis, but the laws fix the same language and then the judges Are committed to interpreting the law as it is and giving effect to that law. Can we have it in Nigeria? Do we have such bold spirits in Nigeria? Well, there are some That's definitely with the increasing executive interference in the processes of Appointment of judicial officers. You hardly can see that kind of development Because they will also take into cognizance that they also got to where they are Through the instrumentality of people in power. So it's unfortunate that that is the reality of the situation Okay, but apart from the Autonomy that you're seeking for the judiciary and so many other things that you want to be put in place it has also been argued that even the Judicial system is fraught with a lot of people who are really really corrupt like now Justice is for the highest bidder So do you do you agree with this kind of assessment of the judicial system? Where lawyers get bought to give judgments to the people that give them the highest money on so many other things Do you attribute that to anything that? Comes from the influence of the executive or the society or anything? What's your reaction? Well, my reaction is that you know, there's no established case yet Of a judicial officer was in bright with plenty of money to give judgment one way or the other I am not sure that the judicial officer has been convicted of collecting a lot of money to prevent the course of justice But I am only saying that there are also human beings and they are appointed through a process and that process of appointment is being Overinterferred with by the executive branch and so long as the executive continues to interfere so long Will they want to also interfere in the outcome of judicial decisions and I will not be good for a society like ours? That is on the one side on the other hand is also that many decisions of courts that come out Against the government in power have not been given effect because the government Reluctant to enforce such judgments a lot of decisions are gotten against the police for instance for human rights violations But how do you do they obey? those judgments and pay damages that are imposed on them by the Constitution by way of Protecting the fundamental rights of citizens and preventing the Infection of those rights. So that is the problem that we have it is the level of apolitical development and the judicial and the democratic space Otherwise in more advanced clients, you know, the police will not need to be told to enforce the judgment Once it is given it is taken as a matter of course that it will be a beat and it has to be a beat But in Nigeria that does not appear to be the case. Let me give you a recent instance Take the recent instance of the decision of the court would respect to the asu problem you know the government insisted they must go back to work and Incidentally the court agreed and said the law the the lecturers should go back to work and then they can appeal later Great, but then I do and cities and also and I'm the can was given a judgment was given for me And that was not obeyed by the same government and rather they are going to oppose it Not even obeying the order of the court like setting him free and then appealing against it as it were. So that is such things you know really happen and You know, I believe that Judges will Sit up to ensure that justice is done to all manner of men no matter whose ox is caught But then they because they cannot enforce those decisions The government itself has a lot of responsibility at least to give The Nigerian nation a very good image that people will say yes You are good and we can enter into business contracts with people from Nigeria You can enter into business contracts in Nigeria when you go that the courts will always interpret contracts And that was a decision is given that it will be implemented Because we're rounding off now so quickly You've mentioned judicial independence What are the other areas in the judiciary that you would say really needs to be reformed, you know To achieve all these positive areas that you would that you would love to see in the judiciary But things need to be done in order to achieve these changes What are the things you would want to see put in place to achieve these things? Well, first of all, we must get it right at the level of Those we admit to the Nigerian bar That's one and secondly the process of appointment into the judicial positions That's important so that it will be people who have passed through the crucibles that will be given opportunity of being appointed and People of course that have passed through such Will be taken to be people who have integrity who will against all odds Stand their ground and say they must do that Look at our judiciary, you know From the era of the shores, the Aniagolus, the Oputas The Alatauras and so on in the Mecagos. Do we still have, you know, such calibre? We, you know, it's not that they are not there But it's just that enormous influence has come upon the judiciary And I think that people are isolated from such pressures by giving them independence By reducing political influence in the appointment of judicial officers Then we can begin to make a move to have an impeccable judiciary All right, this is where we end this, you know, segment of the program Barista, Chiji Okabu, thank you so much for your contributions to the run-up this morning We really appreciate it. Thank you so much for coming by Thank you for having me My pleasure All right, the run-up continues, Yungu He made a very salient point that when he said that it's the enforcement of these laws, of these things that really, really matter Sometimes they are caught judgment and the people who should enforce them are not enforcing Even the government itself is not obeying this law This morning, we're coming to work Somewhere at Deneji, they call it or so Just when you're entering the Third Mainland Bridge from the island here I saw a policeman in uniform, this mobile policeman He just dropped a passenger and was paid on a bike And then immediately another one, somebody else in suit who was maybe running late Was now like, can you take me as well? He stood there and they were bidding the price And he's in uniform And he's in uniform The same bike that they have stopped in Lagos The policemen that are supposed to enforce the law Are they once now making the money, riding the bikes and carrying passengers The same bikes without helmets or any other safety precautions and all that So enforcement of the law or making the laws that feeling that someone else should obey it And not you It's really the boon of this society So how do we get it right? How do we get it right? Because if I break the law, I'm expecting the policeman to reprimand me, to catch me To arrest me Now the policeman is the one breaking the law, who will now arrest him? Me Because next thing, he's a gunslinging person, there's a gun in front of him And there's a passenger behind him So how do I even talk to this man? Because I don't know if he's just coming from a pub or something It's a difficult thing And until we get to the point where everybody carries their responsibility the way they should We will find it difficult in this country All right, we'll take a quick break when we return We will be having another guest join us to talk about funding in the entertainment industry Do not go anywhere, the run-up will be back, stay with us