 are you like advocating that we like do like a certain diet or do you think that some diet would be more optimal than what we eat now or what's uh yeah i guess what i'm yeah so if we look at these people they were free of any degenerative disease so if we talk about obesity heart disease any cardiovascular related diseases pretty much anything i mean sort of wait wait you're telling me that all indigenous people were free of things like heart disease before modern foods yes i'm and even in cases of uh it's interesting if you look at i have a couple studies on the messai and is that atherosclerosis the buildup of plaque in the arteries is there's a big difference between actual arteries and the inflammation caused by cardiac events so when we look at these messai these people that subsisted off of blood meat and milk uh they were actually immune in a way to the disease wait let me just i'm yeah i'm really curious can you can you link me for to see that uh people didn't get things like heart disease before um i guess before like modern day nutrition was invented i mean that's not something you're gonna that's i mean that's not going to be something you'd be able to read in a short period i can link you the i can link you a big text see if i could find the specific and let me let me just go grab the sorry i didn't prepare this beforehand let me just grab the studies on the on the messai that i had that book that i linked i mean that's not going to be something you're going to be able to look at uh quickly there's just you know it's hundreds of pages the this is one study on the messai goes summary investigation of 400 messai men number of women and children show little or no clinical or chemical signs of ethosclerosis despite a long continuous diet of only meat and milk men have low serum cholesterol levels and no signs of arteriosclerotic heart disease the common understanding that animal fats cause coronary disease has been investigated or we're talking specifically about regenerative disease you know we're not talking about like uh literally almost all the native americans got wiped out from smallpox specifically referring to is anything that's kind of related to like such as cancer disease obesity diabetes all of these things were absent when they were on there do you think that like um don't you think you could achieve like similar outcomes using things like ketogenic diets though instead of just going like full meat only diet or oh well the you know the reason i reached out to you wasn't really specifically to talk about a meat only diet uh it was to talk about the base nutrient density that these animal foods offered so if we actually look at and uh let me get the first for this real quick if we actually look at hunter gatherer macronutrient ratios in their diets uh approximately like 65 to 75 uh 65 to 70 percent of the calories foods so every indigenous group consumed quite a variety of plant foods in most cases in the case of like the indigenous aborigines they would literally have access to hundreds to thousands of wild plant foods just in their native habitat so a few indigenous groups that subsisted entirely off of meat and uh and the big thing to keep in mind is that free food in every case was eaten out of necessity you know these people had to survive so you know that we might see certain groups of native americans that subsisted mostly off of buffalo and they might have gotten 80 to 90 percent of their calories from buffalo but then we might look at a group of swiss people in um that are living these swiss people might have had you know 60 percent of their calories from just cheese and then the rest of their calories from rye bread variance in all of these indigenous diets but the one common factor is the presence of high quality animal foods that's the that's the kind of thing to take away from from this and if we do look at a ketogenic diet diet doesn't really focus on the nutrient content of the foods it's it's kind of difficult to correlate i mean in a way would following a ketogenic diet achieve macronutrient ratios that some of these hunter-gatherers are following possibly well i guess like the reason why i ask is i'm looking at things that are related to um especially when you talk about things like obesity and diabetes it seems like controlling your intake of sugar is really what's going on here they're just eating meat isn't conferring you some protection some mystical protection against like diabetes or obesity but but more if you're only eating meats or even meats and vegetables the amount of sugar that you're intake is dramatically decreasing and i feel like that would be like a huge explanatory thing there as well no i mean if we're just if we're just talking about the anything degenerative disease and and we look at a ketogenic diet and yeah i mean there's plenty of evidence of that reversing diabetes in a lot of people that is certain that's certain and the the high carbohydrate intake the refined carbohydrate intake the sugar intake tribute to wait wait hold on hold on your mic keeps cutting out i don't know if you're using push your dog but like every now and then i'll lose like two words out of a sentence is this better i'll just talk a little louder okay yeah i don't know i'll tell you i'm sorry i'm using a i'm using a dynamic microphone so yeah that's fine just make sure to keep my voice at the same level yeah i got it but i just linked one study that showed just the macronutrient ratios and the other study that showed hunter gather diets uh meat based yet to heart disease ketogenic diet in regards to diabetes a lot of diseases that's one element of diet that's removing inflammation yeah so here's kind of the problems that i have so like when you were right here like the paradoxical nature of hunter gather diets meat based yet non um anthro anthrogenic um where does anthrogenic mean damaging to the heart let me what is this yes yeah yeah the formation of fatty plaques in the arteries okay um what i'm wondering is that like um if you look at hunter gather lifestyles these are people that were probably far far far more physically active than what we are today um i feel like there are so many more variables here than just diet that might be impacting like sure maybe the diet is helping too but wouldn't the immense amount of physical activity help as well first but the main correlation that i would want it to make with the the nutrient density of this diet was mainly you look at the facial structure if we look at the height you know if we look at their lack of need for glasses or braces uh by anything that stuck out to me and uh i mean you could even google like native american eyesight or sight and these these people these native americans that are only you know several generations off their indigenous diet and these aborigines that are only one or two generations off their indigenous diet such incredible eyesight i mean that they used to recruit the aborigines for the navy and because they would be literally be able to see ships that were miles away wait so you think that um you think that having a meat only diet is helping these people with their eyesight or their current eyesight oh i i think the incredibly high retinoic acid content of the animal foods in these diet is necessary for optimal human physical development has and has this been demonstrated with the study or anything or only demonstration and the only data that i have uh that it's not really there's nothing showing that you know what if for humans there is a study called the pottinger cat study that's did go sterile after being fed several generations of a cooked meat diet as opposed to a rummy diet and it did show the effects of ancient nutrient profile wait wait for cats cats though oh i'm sorry your mic keeps cutting out when i ask you to repeat it's just because your mic keeps cutting out so wait i didn't hear that again did you say for this was for cats there's one study called the pottinger cat study where they fed cats a cooked meat diet and so my only problem here and i'm not trying to be too picky um because animal testing is very fucking important for this type of stuff i totally recognize that but when we're talking about things like health and diet um cats are obligate carnivores there i feel like their digestive tract is going to be much different than ours with the way that they um with the way that they digest and integrate different vitamins and shit into their body um like humans can theoretically live well not theoretically we can live without eating meat at all cats if they don't eat me will die are these digestive tracts really comparable i mean if we do want to look at the digestive tract of a human and compare it to any animal in particular it is closest to that of a wolf so in the regards to the acidity of the stomach the length of the small intestine the lack of fermentation chambers in the gut the lack of bacteria that ferments fatty acids if you look at the human digestive tract it is meant to synthesize nutrients from animal foods the the only correlation i have between facial development and structure and all of those things is specifically really looking at these indigenous groups of people and their facial development their height their absence of degenerative disease and then correlating that with all the animal foods in there okay okay yeah hold on okay so because we keep like lumping in like a ton of things together and then kind of like moving past it but i'm kind of interested in each of these individual things so like when you talk about things like eyesight or you're talking about things like height i've never heard this so my understanding of how height works in a human is that height is something that is largely genetically determined that you have a capacity to reach a certain height and that things like um like like you've got growth plates that are more or less genetically predetermined and as long as you receive the proper amount of nutrients um you'll grow to a certain height whatever you're going to and then your growth plates close and then that's it um are you are you making the claim that like if you eat like a certain diet that people will necessarily be taller that that's like a thing that is true oh i guess i guess i would to answer i would ask a question i would say okay well why do you think italians are short and why do you think dutch people are tall is it genetics or does something determine genetics over generations um i mean that could be an incredibly complicated question i mean i mean there could be a large number of genetic factors that play into it there could have been environmental pressures at one point in time that influence this genetic factor um i'm not sure are you saying that it was solely diet or in if we look at the amount of animal foods and grains in the diet of italians over the past thousands of years the grains is substantially higher than the dutch if you look at the diet of the people the dutch people in the netherlands that's well pretty much the tallest country in the world they have a very high intake of animal foods in the diet yeah sure but like i could so without the problem without having like studies or the problem without having like a causal well one like some sort of study that highly correlates it and then two like a biological mechanism that describes why this would take place is that i could propose hypotheses for why um this may or may not be true so for instance let's say that in a vacuum a short person will will outlive a long person because a short person needs to consume less calories to survive so the long person is at a disadvantage they're in an environment for being able to survive and reproduce now let's say that that long person or let's say that a taller person is able to um exist only because being tall allows them to hunt down certain forms of animals right and if they were shorter they either wouldn't have the um the leg right the ability to run long distances or hunt animals right so like i could take two populations that grow entirely apart from one another where one people tend to eat plants and another people tend to eat animals and the people that eat animals might be taller slightly because that's the trait that's selected for when it comes to hunting but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're healthier or better off for it they just happen to be taller because they're more suited for that right but that and that also doesn't necessarily mean that eating that food enabled them to grow taller that just might have been the trait that was selected for right i'm not saying that i'm correct i'm just saying that that could be a possible explanation wouldn't you need like a causal mechanism to explain one over the other you could say that but it's if it's like a plant if a plant doesn't have the right nutrients in the soil to grow it's not going to achieve its its growth potential say that almost everyone nowadays does not achieve adequate yeah so like that should be able if that's true that should be demonstrated that people should be able to grow taller that that should be pretty easy to demonstrate no like a malnutrition and not growing to your theoretical height as a result of malnutrition should be something that's pretty easy to demonstrate there's a big difference between malnutrition and optimal nutrition i mean in you know what people think is average and what people think is optimal for sure i mean i guess like i feel like we're i feel like this is even like a really socially loaded question too because the idea that being really tall is optimal that's not even necessarily true like again like larger calorie consuming things tend to live less longer and need to gather more energy in order to survive these are i would consider these suboptimal traits for survival in like a like a from the perspective of hunters being taller was a desirable trait i mean you could cover more ground taller and they have more bone density and muscle mass they're stronger they're able to yeah i agree with what you're saying here but this is kind of showing my point like again like having greater muscle density this is a negative when it comes to survival this is why humans don't don't naturally come with a ton of muscle right because we don't want to carry extra muscle if we don't need to so having to carry more muscle in order to be able to hunt animals it seems to be the other way around then that the reason why these people are taller or maybe stronger is because they needed to be in order to capture food whereas if you're farming or living a more plant-based life you don't need that much energy no no but it correlates directly with the percentage of animal foods present in the diet because if there are animal foods present in the diet you know the body is able to grow to its optimal height because of the protein the fat soluble vitamins but if not a high percentage of plant food if it's not a high percentage of animal foods then there's going to be some sort of bottleneck on their height yeah and i agree what you're saying there but or i'm sorry if i would agree what you're saying there i feel like you should be able to demonstrate that there should be like some study or something showing that i did i was just looking for a study i did just link one child height gain is associated with consumption of animal source foods and livestock owning households in western kenya okay but in western kenya are we talking malnutrition here like um we can actually kind of like read this really quickly i guess i'm just reading through real quick you know look too i haven't uh i haven't gone through in this one before let me see if i can find another one on dairy association so this is among children of lessons of over six months old reported frequency of egg and milk consumption was associated with increased monthly height gain poultry ownership was associated with with higher reported frequency of egg milk and chicken consumption some livestock diseases were showed to be lower so yeah i'm i'm curious if this is um we conducted a longitudinal cohort study of anthro anthro pan up anthro pometry and it's 3d feeding recalls among children in addition we clicked in on wealth livestock ownership and livestock disease and somehow it's we use linear okay hold on this one you linked is interesting okay little is known about how cows more consumption affects growth of young children the consumption of milk but not other dairy products is associated with height among us preschool students sample 1002 children aged 24 to 59 months used multivariate regression tests are associated between milk consumption and height controlling creation results children in the highest quartile of milk intake were taller than those in q2 and q3 but not q1 um total calcium had a positive effect on height but did not change the height differences among percentiles total protein was not associated with height and q4 children were taller than those other quartiles children who drank milk daily were taller than those with less frequent intake consumption of other dairy products had no association with height blacks are taller than whites and mexican-americans controlling for milk intake did not alter this pattern okay so this seems to um well i think this like this is evidence that drinking milk at the very least could cause you to grow a little bit taller sure here's uh here's another study that's on the birth correlating with uh height iq i believe educational attainment and the reason we're looking at the the month that the child is born and is because in nature what would have happened is spring and the summer brings grass and food and the room and animals become fat and this is when humans kind of have their prime hunting period in in the late summer and fall so the idea is that humans would have procured nutrition from these animals in the summer and fall they would have gotten pregnant and then given birth in the spring and the summer months and the reason it's important that they give birth in the spring in the summer months is because levels in the body you know you can only store enough vitamin d3 for one winter um and the the scale of storing vitamin d3 if you're below 40 nanograms per milliliter your body's pretty much running on empty it's using whatever vitamin d3 it can get once the amount of vitamin d3 is past 40 nanograms per milliliter your body starts storing it for the winter and once you're above 60 it's deemed kind of that your body has adequate d3 stores for the winter over 70 75 is ideal the numbers i got this from were from a it was a study on indigenous peoples living in i believe some like an arctic russian climate and the reason i use them as a demonstration is because it's pretty much the minimal amount of vitamin d3 as they are not in a sunny area find this but uh the the important thing is that and i'm going to link some to video i did and it just has a bunch of studies in the in the description of the video is the vitamin levels in mother's breast milk vary drastically levels in breast milk can vary from 0.05 percent to 0.73 percent so that's almost the 20-fold variance in k levels and not only does this apply to breast milk this applies to uh all the vitamins all the fat soluble vitamins all the all the b vitamins all the k vitamins it's hard to really when like this whole idea that i have is that there's a lot of bits and pieces of information that you can't really you know show a concrete nation as opposed to uh you know things that you're kind of piecing together yeah it's just it's scary because like if you're not careful like anybody can weave together any story um and it seems like when it comes to biology like everything is like biology is very very soft in terms of its scientific claims uh when it comes to diet and whatnot because it's so hard to understand everything is linked together so i just get kind of worry when somebody has uh i don't know how far you take it i haven't watched all of your channel but i know like people like um peterson's daughter jordan peterson's daughter will say things like an all meat diet can help you cure like every disease you have listen listen listen she is a complete and i mean to be i mean to say this in the nicest way she's a bit of a ditzy moron in regards to this diet and you know the difference between you know she eats ribeye steak all day i'm eating pretty much every part of the animal a very wild wild fish we watch a video of you eating like cat brains and liver and whatnot so that's that's a cow that's a cow but uh just to if you want to actually look at like i think anyone would agree that if you don't have a problem a proper mineral and um what are the what are the key vitamins that plants need to grow i think it's potassium nitrogen and i can't remember but nitrogen potassium uh plants need three let me just look it up real quick so plants need nitrogen phosphorus and potassium to grow uh as a minimum in the soil and they call these fertilizers NPK fertilizers these are like carbs fats and proteins and you're pretty much giving the plant macronutrients to grow you're not giving now you're not giving the plant micronutrients you're not giving it all the minerals you're not giving it all the other vitamins vitamin k vitamin carotenoids you're not giving the plant the other vitamins that will increase the vitamin concentration in the food so if we look at i'm sure you've heard like they add pigmentation to farm salmon because the farmed salmon don't get the orange color because they don't have the carotenoids present in their diet sure if if an animal or a plant does not have the required nutrients in the soil in the diet if they're not eating the proper foods their tissue isn't going to be reflective of the vitamins themselves applies to humans too so if we look at diversity for plants it's simple because what happens if a plant doesn't get enough nutrients it you know just doesn't it doesn't grow it dies it doesn't grow optimally nutrients that humans need and to me if you know if i asked someone what a healthy diet meant i mean i'm hoping part of their answer would be the vitamin and mineral content of the diet at least to some degree because if the vitamin and mineral content of the diet isn't the most important thing in the diet then what is you know if your vitamin d3 intake if your omega 3 fatty acid intake if those things aren't the most important part of the diet then i'd have to ask what is so then if we actually look at those vitamins individually the vitamin versions of the plant and the animal form vitamin a for example vitamin a in plant foods occurs as carotenoids and the conversion rates in the body uh not only are the conversion rates limited and you know they can only convert at you usually fruits are around 14 to 1 so so what are we moving towards you're essentially saying that you think we can get most of these from from meaty things or what i'm saying is the the forms of vitamins and plants are not we can't assimilate enough nutrition from them to be an optimal health i'm getting at so if you take you know you can eat all the carrots you want but your body can only convert a certain amount of carotenoids to retinoic acid and even in that case some people have a genetic polymorphisms where they can't convert carotenoids to retinoic acid and that's a pretty large percentage of the population actually wait is that vitamin k2 good link on that give me a second sure i think this was in the a lot of this like that that video i linked to carnivore versus vegan nutrients i'm kind of going over a lot of what was in that video okay so this is the the study on carotenoid conversion to right of an a and the important thing the main thing to note here is part of the study wait are you still here i'm here okay okay okay so what happened was it fed subjects six milligrams of carotene and oil and the conversion factor was 3.8 to 1 which is pretty good you know 4 to 1 the dosage to 126 milligrams of carotene and oil the conversion factor went up to 55 to 1 and this does talk about when they did what it went up to 55 to 1 they increased the dosage by about 25 times of carotene and oil okay so when they try to administer higher doses of the vitamin the conversion rate lowered drastically oh yeah i'm familiar with so bioavailability we're talking about the ability like if you consume like 10 000 uh flexing grams of protein you're not you're not going to get all of that most of that is going to be yeah yeah of course but this is different in a sense that uh use higher amounts of vitamin a for processes and store it but it just the plant version you can achieve optimal levels for it and if we if you scroll down in the study right before conclusions it says we have observed large variations in the bioconversion of dietary carotene to vitamin a which may be related to the genetic characteristics of the subjects because the enzyme responsible for beta carotene conversion into retinol is b carotene 15 comma 15 mox some scientific stuff genetic polymorphisms in the gene may contribute to the poor converter phenotype reported that two common non-synonymous single nucleotide polymorphisms have been identified and in vitro biochemical characterization of blah blah blah responsiveness it basically shows their ability is a decreases 69 percent to convert carotene into retinol acid that's why some people turn orange and that's also why some people do far worse on a vegan diet than others large percentage of the population i don't remember where i found the statistics on that but i think it was up to 40 percent of the population had a a highly impaired and the reason this vitamin is so important specifically vitamin a retinol acid is because within the creation of every cell so you know cell differentiation what you know cells your body chooses to make is regulated by gene expression which needs acid is a precursor to that entire process you really say that every cell in the body and whether or not your body has the optimal fuel to make it by vitamin a and the only way to really get a considerable amount of vitamin a is in the form of retinol acid which only occurs in animal products gotcha that's interesting this is why the fish well capsules are all capsules are so recommended oh well well fish oil is omega three but cod liver oil well liver is the only animal food that's a bundle in vitamin a and did you ever hear of like the orcas we're killing sharks and eating their liver right no but what about it orcas are killing great white sharks and eating their livers uh so uh this is one example in nature of preference for organs and the liver of the shark has a very high vitamin a concentration so specifically killing sharks and consuming their liver for the nutrition that was in the liver look at animals in nature that kill uh they usually go for the guts first where the organs are where the nutrition is even i even have like a compilation of clips of certain herbivorous animals unquote eating meat if available like deer eating birds uh monkeys eating meat there's a lot of preference for uh there's a book called and then i can link it to you busy or i'm assuming i don't i don't even have time to read stuff myself let alone yeah that's fine you are but uh there's this book called the fat of the land uh and it's bob the armor stephenson who's an arctic explorer and this was back in the 1900s and threw him in a hospital after because what happened was he came back from these arctic expeditions he claimed that he survived for only i think it was a couple years on an all meat dye and they're like oh no you would have died you would have gotten scurvy so they put this guy into a hospital for like a year and they made him only eat meat uh but the main part of this book referencing it now is because these indigenous people had very specific preferences for parts of the animal and what they would do with them so someone in chat said did that retard say that vitamin a is only in vitamin and animal products it's bullshit call them out on that please don't listen at all so you're what you're saying is essentially is that vitamin a um exists in i think you acknowledge that it exists in vegetables but what you're saying is that the bioavailability of those foods is not so great the of the usda to label m&a is is a bit bullshit so if a food has beta carotene in it they can label it as vitamin a on the label of the food but that's not actually correct because food has vitamin a in the carotenoid form not the retinoic acid form and the carotenoid form needs that um that one thing in order to convert it or whatever right one it needs fat to be converted and you have to have the genetic predisposition to be good at converting it and the main contradictory thing is okay if you need fat to convert beta carotene into retinoic acid only to get fat in all parts of the world at all climates at all points in time you know the only access to fat would be from animal foods and i mean to get fat from a plant food in most parts of the world is uh it's not accessible all right tropical on climates well what else did you want to talk about or what else what else do you got for us in this is the main premise of the idea that if we consumed uh you know just the overall nutrient density of these animal foods if we consume then we would be in optimal health but all it's you know if you look in nature you know do wolves have crooked teeth or wolves wearing glasses and sound kind of crazy but i don't believe so i'm okay with the dietary claims um i did a little bit of research before i had this conversation and it seems like most of what you're saying appears to be lining up with with what i've heard and i haven't heard you say anything too concrete but when you start my worry is when you move from like making pretty basic dietary claims like for instance bioavailability of vitamins in certain foods to saying things like wolves have good eyesight so our eyesight problems are caused by not eating certain foods i don't know if that's that's i mean that's not really what i was getting at what i was saying was animals in nature on their on their diets that they normally eat don't have these problems that we're having i don't even know if that's true though like one i don't know how um i don't know if the measure of human eyesight is accurate for instance is 2020 vision is that truly average vision or does that need to be changed um and then two i don't know if the um i don't know if like if humans need optimal eyesight in the same way that that wolves do if that's even like a thing that's necessarily like um like like if that's a trait that's as highly selected for as it is in wolves so for instance like looking at like certain humans are going well look some humans are very hairy and they're very healthy because that's like bears are they can survive in cold climates like bears could and it's like okay well you know i'm sure that bears select for thick fur or you know i think that that selection is probably a lot more important than than humans having thick hair i just don't know of eyesight like saying that if we just eat like the right diet or eyesight would all be perfect the correlation wasn't going to be towards wolves who was just i was just kind of mentioning that i mean you know we have people in our modern society i'm sure everyone knows people who wear glasses and people who have perfect 2020 vision i'm sure people know that you know people that have needed braces two or three times foreign would perfectly straight teeth this is not and people and a lot of the things that people like to correlate to genetics my belief is that it's of vitamins throughout developmental periods especially during pregnancy prenatal periods nursing i linked i linked that video earlier that had the studies showing that there's a big variance in various vitamins and dha levels in mother's breast milk and uh you know i mean i can't really convince people without you know obviously because there's no like i could say okay when they analyzed skulls of eschemic of eskimos and Inuit people the skulls had perfect proportions they had perfect teeth they had no signs of dental cavities they had none of those things and then i could say okay now we have these problems and then we say all right what's the difference in lifestyle it's the diet it's the sun exposure it's all of these things all of this data that i've been giving you is kind of i mean i don't know where you want me to specifically like try to point you to more studies and they died at birth for the person that says in the chat because they died at birth in the name of the galactic senate of the republic you were so high in certain indigenous groups and that once they passed a certain age much longer was because of the lack of these vitamins during the developmental periods as necessary past a certain age well once your body was developed please make this guy stop oh that's a true point as well that animals that would have health problems in nature would just die so we wouldn't see them as often as well maybe but um yeah i guess um i'm just not sure how much of our problems are caused today by like by it seems like like sugar related stuff i mean i don't think i necessarily disagree with most of your broader points though oh i mean over this conversation the things i brought up were okay indigenous groups consumed these animal foods in their diet and have certain forms of these vitamins and forms that are more available to the human body that's my first point and i don't think there's any anything refuting that yeah probably again i just get very cautious like correlating like conditions of older people to current people when the lifestyle changes are so dramatically different as well oh it's it's very difficult to prove because i mean one we don't really have a lot of data on these groups of people and you know even if i can establish that okay you know these people consume these vitamins in these animal forms it's very apparent that they didn't have some problems that we have now putting two and two together and actually saying okay well i mean we could look at babies fed uh you know babies that are breastfed versus babies that are formula fed let me see if i could find something on that real quick breastfed versus what a formula fed what what's your claim i'm assuming it's going to be correlated with looking for correlation with higher IQ and birth weight oh yeah i don't need to you don't need to show me that um the correlation between IQ and like breastfed i'm aware of this that's like very very very much i mean uh i mean to me if if we can understand that have these vitamins in more available forms fire vitamins to grow optimally the the difficult thing to prove is that if you were to give someone more of these vitamins if it would actually correlate to yeah that would be that's kind of like that's the difficult kind of the interesting thing that i'm aware of is like taking a study group of maybe like um i don't know maybe like 100 people and having like 20 of them go to a keto diet 20 of them go to a meat only diet 20 of them do whatever and then to do like uh it sucks if you had to do like a longitudinal like over like a course of a year to monitor health benefits and see what changes like not changing any not making any lifestyle choice changes is what i'd be really curious to see um that's obviously like a huge burden because i don't know how much interest there even is an investigative even on popular diets it's hard to find data sometimes like ketogenic diets and stuff so for more obscure diets it would be even more difficult yeah but um let me look at let me just look at this study breastfed infants vitamin k i mean you know i could i could really beat this to death and and show that nutrient deficiencies in in modern diets especially i just really don't know where to go with this because meaning is modern diets are lacking these vitamins yeah i just don't know if they're lacking these vitamins because we have um because we're not exclusively eating meat or just because modern diets are super shit you know if you look at uh if you look at the nutrient profile of a room in an animal the muscle meat and the fat well the muscle meat in particular doesn't really contain a lot of nutrition uh i mean in the case of wild fish if you try to compare like rib by steak you know it's a world of a difference in omega 3 fatty acid content and you know just eating meat in general vastly different nutritional profile than foods like liver brain tissue bone marrow kidneys you can obtain complete nutrition profiles from uh consuming certain animal foods just only eating meat is drastically different sure all right well hey anything else for us in like i kind of touched on all the points i wanted to i mean it doesn't seem doesn't seem like it's it's too convincing well no it's not it's not i mean it's not like um i mean there are some things that i know to be true i mean honestly you haven't said anything that i don't necessarily disagree with um like when i look at it the thing is it just like i'm thinking prescriptively is usually how i think of these things like what can we tell people to do so on the surface like all meat diets are never going to happen because it's totally unsustainable that's impossible um so what i'm interested in is like how much of what you're saying is related to like an all meat diet versus other factors and what what i feel like and when i say feel this is my intuitive feeling based on kind of like studies i've read and whatnot and and maybe you'll even agree with this i feel like um of all the benefits you're talking about i feel like we could get like 90 of these benefits by cutting out most sugars and increasing the amount of physical exercise we get and that a lot of other things would kind of fall into play from there that maybe there are some benefits maybe some things to be researched or discovered past that but like going to the to the point of doing like an all meat diet seems like a really extreme move that one is totally unsustainable to most people would never even do and then three i don't think is necessary to get like the majority of the benefits you would from from radically changing your diet and the amount of exercise you get every day that's kind of that's just kind of like my gut feeling on that um you think that a lot of the modern problems are more related to negative things in the diet as opposed to a lack of nutrition in the diet um i feel like so the i think that the two most neglected things we have today are diet and exercise and in the kind of the western world um in that but but so like i think that the exercise probably plays a big role in it fucking exercise impacts so much fucking shit in our lives from hormone production to quality of sleep we get to likelihood of depression like there's so much shit that ties into the amount of exercise we get and i'm sure that like exercising at an early age is going to have a huge impact on a lot of developmental stuff as well um so i i mean like i i mean the exercise part is probably really fucking important too that's why i kind of keep pointing back when we talk about like um when we try to compare ourselves to older people i'm sure that the amount of daily activity they got had a massive impact on the way that they grow up as well not not just the food they ate but then also in terms of food like we do so much shit it's kind of like saying like i think that or well i'm not trying to start my new position but like we eat so fucking horribly today i don't think that we need to do dramatic changes to our diet to have a much better diet but things that like cutting out like most sugars like everything we eat is so fucking sugary and so low in nutrients today that i don't know if we necessarily do we need to go to like an all meat diet to get most of these um to get most of the benefits that you're kind of talking about that's that's kind of like my gut feeling on that um i'm not necessarily advocating an only meat diet i'm advocating for a base amount of nutrient density in the diet yeah i think for which is i think like even the fda like advocates that but how many people like actually like follow even those guidelines that i think some people would say are inadequate like i don't even know if those guidelines are traditionally followed by most americans like our sugar but if you look at if you look at the rda's and you look at the magnesium rda it's 400 milligrams but is it 400 yeah 400 milligrams rda of magnesium but most people don't know that magnesium and plant foods is bound to an oxalic acid molecule and the bioavailability of oxalic acid molecule is maybe like 20 30 percent and then if you look at magnesium torate which is magnesium bound to a torene molecule the in animal foods the bioavailability is much greater so if you attain the rda from both animal and plant and plant food separately actually be several times higher in the vitamin rda's the rda's are a whole completely different topic to talk about i mean the rda for vitamin d is what 400 iu if you're if you're naked on the beach for an hour you get hundreds of thousands of iu of vitamin d3 through your skin um you know the rda's are incredibly correct in in a lot of different ways but uh like like i i showed you uh you know correlation of you know birth month with height i showed you you know the association of consuming animal products and milk with height who um you know the bioavailability of the nutrients in animal foods you know i i feel like i'm making a a reasonably compelling argument and you know even if i showed pictures of these native americans and these indigenous people if we notice their facial structure if we notice their height and there's definitely a different level of physical development but to me like you and the chat don't really seem to convince in any way that there's a correlation directly between the amount of nutrition in the diet in regards to vitamins so it's it's not so much that it's just that i've spent enough time like looking into some of these fields to know that the arguments are so insanely fucking complicated that i just get really nervous describing like a causal link without having like 100 percent like concrete like from correlation to longitudinal studies to biomechanical explanations for how things happen to actual like you know double blind testing like until you like really start to build up like it's possible to tell and there are a lot of fields that kind of suffer from from these kinds of like quick jumps is like oh well look we see this so this must be the case and then that ends up not necessarily being the case so i guess that's just kind of i spent like i guess the only field that i've really touched on with any level of um with any level of like actual digging into it would be the things related to like iq and um to to iq and like genetics and environment where that topic is so fucking messy so insanely fucking messy where even things like separated twins at birth studies aren't necessarily going to be good studies to study genetic differences like where everything is so fucking messy and and i guess just coming out of all of that research i get very hesitant to very quickly say well look there's a difference between that group and that group even though there's a million different variables this is definitely the cause i guess i'm just very cautious in making that jump and that's why i usually just defer to um i guess like larger academic bodies of work to see kind of what the prevailing opinion is and i just haven't heard much come out and in terms of saying that like oh well you know like an all meat diet is the best thing for you now that being said i mean there are most like i said most of the things you're saying i don't necessarily disagree with um i think bioavailability in animal foods is a pretty well documented thing right the consumption of meats especially cooked meats freed up a lot of time for humans in the past in order to do other tasks and whatnot i don't think these are bad things i don't think these are even disagreeable things i guess i just get i don't like to jump and make the strength of the claim that like eating better foods will improve our eyesight and make us grow taller um these things these things i mean there's evidence pointing towards that i agree but man these are really really really strong claims it it's a pretty big jump but i mean you know saying saying italians ate a proportion of grain comparison to animal foods one compared to you know the dutch and the netherlands i mean what what else could you really correlate the height difference to besides well again like you got to be really careful because like when it says that it almost sounds like you're engaging in kind of like a post-hoc rationalization like there could be a lot of things that that might influence that um i don't know but i could spin you up like five tails right now that that might influence that um that maybe taller people did better in colder climates because they were able to reach certain things even something as dumb as that or that shorter people did better in certain climates because of some reason or that there was less you know food available on the ground so they had to be taller in order to hunt or that certain types of people migrated at like there's like a million different potential hypotheses and any person pushing any particular narrative could very easily come in and go oh well this is the reason why this is this and that's the reason why this is this when the reality is i'm sure there's like a massive combination of factors that determine why certain people are slightly different than other certain types of people that that that's the only thing i kind of am worried about i'm just trying to think of like what information i could have brought to this to make this more clear because if you read you know if you read weston prices book nutrition and physicality generation a main focus of the book is people would be on their normal diets and then when they were going to the cities when they would start eating modern foods their teeth would just rot away yeah but again i mean like that has to do with like introduction of sugar and whatnot into the diet right like i don't think that's necessarily just eating oh but then when they went back to their indigenous diets the law stopped so yeah so like somebody could have like a cavity and then they could go back to eating an indigenous diet and then their cavity would just stop growing and go away like the tooth would repair itself or yeah there was a degree of repair on the tooth i mean let me try to find that actual quote in this book real quick um dentine would regenerate i mean the tooth obviously like uh like i like i know that your enamel can can repair itself early if you use toothpaste and shit that's the point of fluoride or whatnot but i don't think that like actual cavities in the tooth could reverse themselves i mean maybe it could maybe the decay could stop i don't even know if that's true though the cavities already formed i don't know if the decay will just stop or if it'll continue until the cavities either filter i mean this this book really focuses on uh you know the facial structure and the the development goes like after one or two generations on a modern food diet it shows that um again i guess i don't know how big of a deal this seems to you but we're on the indigenous diet you know they had proper jaw development they didn't have crooked teeth they didn't need braces and then the first and second generations after them after the parents adapted a modern food diet didn't have a jaw wide enough to accommodate the teeth so their teeth were all crooked they needed braces um i mean i don't know how i mean in this book they also mentioned that pigs were born without eyes if they had a lack of vitamin a in the diet hold on just i'm reading for a second about this teeth thing i mean this this is literally like this book is literally you know it's 320 pages and um you know i'm a little bit upset i didn't come into this a little more prepared because i wasn't sure what questions you were going to ask no it's fine it's totally fine like i'm like i'm incredibly like i spent so much time digging into um are you familiar with like race realism i don't know how i into politics or whatever you are unless i am not into politics at all but i 100 understand how you need to critique every single word that comes out of a person yeah it's just like it's one of those things where it's like uh like when i dug into race realism my hope was that like okay well i'm gonna go in here and i'm gonna figure out what's going on and fucking christ that conversation is so fucking complicated and like i came like i went into that um you know i'm not i'm not arrogant when i go into these topics i understand there's a lot to know but damn like i went into that expecting to find answers and i came out like so scared to make any declarative statements on on anything related to like environment or genetics influencing some trait like all of it is so fucking complicated the way that it plays into each other so anytime and then like diets are insane and i mean you know this right diets are insanely fucking complicated where nothing is absolutely clear you know the um just because you ingest a certain amount of vitamin doesn't mean that's going to be available for your body to consume even if your body can consume it your body might not be able to utilize it even if it utilizes it there might be certain things that inhibit um you know the the efficiency of that like there's so much shit that that goes into this there there's definitely a lot to it but and i don't think anybody's gotten close to like solving any of these things where like we can say like for 100% like oh well if you just do this like this thing will absolutely happen and we can prescribe this thing and it will fix definitely like these things like all of it just seems so i get really nervous when somebody kind of like provides like a one stop like catch all like oh well if we just all eat meat this will fix all of these problems and those answers always seem a little bit too simple to me and there's so much groundwork that has to be laid to 100% proof i don't want to say saying oh if we just start eating meat that'll stop no i mean each animal food specifically has a certain vitamin content depending on how it was raised and uh i mean if i don't want to use an animal example so let's use a tribal example native americans used to feed specific foods to pregnant woman and nursing woman to ensure fertility like fish eggs fish row liver and when you actually look at the nutrient content of these foods you know there's a reason they were feeding into the pregnant woman they were exponentially higher in nutrients than all the other animal foods but if i made a really blanket statement like right now diseases we need glasses we need braces right and these indigenous people and one main factor is the diet and and you would try to argue that final factors that oh they did they needed to see because they were hunting or oh well they needed to be tall because they need to cover is that your your main basis is that i'm not yeah i'm not saying that that is the reason i'm saying those could be explanations i don't i don't know i am agnostic someone just said that there's no diet that is universally good in um and if we look at these indigenous group there there's a huge variance in what they would have eaten you might have an african coastal tribe that literally subsisted off of fish called the new years that n e u r s and they were known for being very tall uh over well over six feet i think over six and a half feet in many cases something that i or real quick something that this is kind of what i was familiar with was that the idea was that our jaws today can't have we don't have enough room for all of our teeth anymore that was kind of like my impression i'm just going through an article now um and the and there could be more here but like basically the idea was that our heads have gotten so small over time that we just can't fit all of the teeth in our mouth anymore you're saying what how long a period of time would you consider that to be like hundreds or thousands of years um i think hundreds of i i think hundreds of thousands of years okay so i have a picture uh of my great grandfather that had a drastically wider jaw and facial development than me uh so this is my grand uh this is my grandfather grandfather then let me try to find a picture of me with my shirt on because that's all i post on twitter uh hold on uh i got a silly picture from halloween well here what i'm curious of is that like is there an example of like modern day people um look at my grandfather like and my great grandfather and myself we have very similar facial features but my face is drastically narrower than his and you think this is just because of diet i think this is specifically because he received more nutrition during developmental stages of his life like he was breastfed whereas i was formula fed uh i think he received more nutrition during the key developmental stages of his life particularly free natal health uh you know during the pregnancy breastfeeding uh you know indigenous groups used to feed children for a minimum of uh two years and some indigenous groups breastfed their children for up to four to five years and that was not unusual two years was on the lower side chat chat wants to see my uh chat wants to see my chad grandfather i once said that um poor i'm trying to hold on the chat's going fast there's evidence of support facial development is tied to the hardness of food we eat during childhood you might say that but why are their babies born with much wider jaws than other babies and then why are their children that are one or two years of age that have drastically wider faces when they're always being breastfed also didn't have people living the hard food argument and the chewing argument it just doesn't make any sense to me when when the hardness of the food in what we eat versus what indigenous groups of people used to eat was was not no significant difference i think i could find you a skull structure of annuets so an evolutionary biologist daniel leberman at harvard university conducted an elegant study in 2004 on hyrax's fed soft cooked foods and tough raw foods higher chewing strains resulted in more growth in the bone that anchors the teeth he showed that the ultimate length of a jaw depends on the stress put on it during chewing selection for jaw length is based on the growth expected given a hard or tough diet in this way diet determines how well jaw length matches tooth size but what what's the argument that is harder than we now i just don't see that why the argument presented here is that in this way it's a fine balancing act and our species has had 200 000 years to get it right the problem for us is that for most of the time our ancestors didn't feed their children the kind of mush we feed ours today our teeth don't fit because they evolved instead to match the longer jaw that would develop in a more challenging strain environment ours are too short because we don't give them the workout nature express expects us to so the argument in this article is that chewing things more would lead to greater bone growth during adolescence that would cause you to grow a jaw that would be able to accommodate the average amount of teeth that a human has we see their address and you could google pictures of babies there are drastic differences in mouth and facial width of just babies when they're born straight out of the mother's womb well yeah but that can one or two years of life but that that can be genetic differences right but genet aren't my argument is that genetics are determined but you could probably even find a woman who's who's given birth to multiple children and the the width of their jaw decreases as she loses nutrients and gives birth to more children I mean that's possible but if that was true that should be demonstrated in a study if that's true right that like as women get really don't like this hard versus soft food argument because children are typically breastfed for early stages of their life and how does that have an and if there are drastic differences in facial structure of young children and why are we correlated especially the width of the the mouth and the the jaw then why are we trying to argue soft versus hard food I just don't understand well I don't know that's children exclusively drink best breast milk growing up or I mean during in indigenous groups they were breastfed for a minimum of two years yeah but what I'm asking is were they exclusively breastfed or were they breastfed and then they also ate other things as well oh they were exclusively breastfed and then foods would be incorporated you know two three years into their life I don't understand what what foods are you going to feed a child that are harder than the foods we have now I think most children that are two to three years of age now are chewing much harder foods than our ancestors were wait no no way today we feed them like formula and things out of like gerber jars and shit like they're okay but 100 but what food would you have fed a child that is harder than what we have now 100 years ago I mean any type of meter vegetable if you take meat and usually the indigenous groups fed their children raw meat and I mean I don't know how many of you guys have had steak tartare carpaccio or certain cuts of raw meat and not even raw meat if we look at egg yolks if we look at brain tissue bone marrow butter fat cream these animal foods are very very soft they're not actually that hard knowing on like not knowing on also buco here that's not they're chewing if anything I would argue that the foods we give to children now are much harder from cereal what would a child have for lunch typically if you had cereal for breakfast I mean cereal I would consider a hard food I don't think cereals are hard food no no no not at all when I think of a hard food I think of something that requires chewing you typically don't chew cereal the same way that you would like chew on on something more I don't know like fibrous I'm trying to think of an example of like some type of vegetable that like like even something like a broccoli whatever require more chewing than like a than like a piece of cereal that's like 90% air no like I think this is just I mean I like carrots and stuff like that sure but you have to the the thing you have to understand is now didn't exist 100 years ago let alone hundreds of years ago like creation of pretty if you look at diets in places even like 100 to 200 years ago you know they didn't have access to fruits and vegetables because there was no such thing as refrigeration and it was very seasonally based come from grains and animal foods and that was it your choice of nutrition over the over the course of most of the year was either ukulele and then just whatever animal foods you had access to sorry so I'm going to chat wait how do you not chew cereal so cereal so there are things that you can chew I don't know how to explain this but like if you eat foods like even like an apple or like a carrot there are things that you chew that you like really have to chew that will leave your jaw feeling like you've like had to work it out cereal is not like this at all when you eat cereal it's like cereals like you like you barely crunch it and then it's done yeah like if you take like a bite out of a steak and it's like it tenderizes it slightly but then you got to keep taking bites out of it yeah yeah like something like meaty stuff yeah it's going to be way different than like cereal is not something you chew I mean like you chew it you don't bite at all but like if you bite a piece of cereal it like breaks down yeah but you're never going to eat cereal and feel like your jaw is tired from eating cereal like it just doesn't work that way the only the only main gripe I have with the the hardness of the food argument is just looking at the very very young children yeah no I'm curious and again I like I just it's just stuff I need empirical to know I'm just I'm trying to find like um because like this random link says that the prehistoric diet was mainly breastfeeding so I'm curious if um like up to what age do you have to well actually I guess we can just look at the original Harvard thing I used to have studies that um and I don't know if it was from the Australian breastfeeding society uh there was one group of indigenous that breastfed till they were like seven years old it was something crazy uh because I don't know how long you have to eat and chew stuff until your jaw grows like maybe this is a process that you can do up until you're 14 15 16 or maybe up until you're into your mid 20s when puberty completely stops or whatever um I mean I don't know how how relevant this is there was uh I don't know if it was a documentary uh there was a guy I think his name was Gail Said he was on the Joe Rogan podcast he talked about how a tribe of monkeys started eating garbage out of a resort that was built and they were eating a lot of cake and these monkeys developed tuberculosis within a generation or two and just died and and tuberculosis is um and if you read Weston Price's book just seems to be a disease that kills people when they go on modern diets in the absence of vaccinations uh let me see if I could find that I don't think I'll be able to find that but look at uh like caloric availability in nature and just try to kind of relate that to how you would have even been able to obtain your calories or is that wait I'm sorry I said it again do we want to look at availability of calories in a natural environment outside of the context of modern refrigeration and transportation that's why I don't know right I'm just curious right now what causes our teeth to fit in our mouth that's the only question I'm curious about right now is if if it's if a lot of our adolescent chewing can actually impact um whether or not our teeth fit in our face or if this is just a nutrient thing I mean if you scroll through the the Weston Price book they have just one generation of parents following a modernized diet of refined grains and flowers and jams and canned foods the facial structure children was much more narrow and they lacked the jaw width to accommodate the teeth let me see if I could find a specific quote from the book because it seems like the um the amount of chewing this seems to be something that because I'm seeing this in another area as well in a report published online this week in the proceedings of the national academy of sciences she concludes that the transition of farming which involved the domestication of plants and animals a major increase in food processing and this consumption of easier to chew food altered the shape of the human jaw making it shorter and less robust and the shortening of the jaw she suggests led to greater cutting the teeth and the orthodontist bills that plague many modern families as for whether these changes in jaw shape are due to natural selection over many generations or simply changes that arise anew in each growing infant von kroman topical sites experimental studies showing that animals raised on softer more processed foods grow smaller jaws than those fed fresh unprocessed foods but even if the jaw alterations were due to natural selection she concludes they would have taken place over a relatively short period of evolutionary time would that would that explain why we have a lot of modern people that still have it's genetic that a lot of modern people that have this jaw with and proper facial development without while having you know without the need for braces they have plenty of room in their mouth for these teeth you know there are modern people that have that and then there are people that are polar opposites that needed braces multiple times corrective jaw surgeries and things like that wait what's the question or you're saying that past generations were chewing harder foods and that's why differently than ours now but what about modern people that seem to have proper facial development and don't need braces I don't know what were they chewing harder foods and adolescents were they just genetically born with larger jaws like I'm not sure and that's what I'm saying I mean my theory is that and the information that I've presented here is to try to correlate of you know the mother's diet the child's diet during developmental periods is what gauges whether or not the body has enough vitamins and minerals to even form the skeletal structure of the face skulls of primitive Indians I mean you want to look at like pictures of skulls in the primitive Indians I mean well no again this isn't like this isn't like you I know that you have your explanation and I don't deny that these correlations exist I'm just rejecting that it's we can say it's causal because the correlation exists like that said I'm just saying that your claim is very strong and that to get to that very strong claim like experimental data and biological mechanisms are really important here oh so you're saying like I we've kind of established that you know these people had perfect facial development and they were consuming you know certain amounts of animal foods but to now prove is that it's not due to things like chewing harder food environmental changes exercise things like that yeah that maybe that take two people you could grow one on a meat diet you could take another person and put them on a meat diet but all their meat goes into a milkshake blender first and maybe the first person grows up with a healthy jaw or whatever and the second person doesn't and it's not actually the nutrients it's the environmental impact it's the actual working of the jaw that lengthens the jaw that causes the teeth to fit in the mouth that that could be possible I don't know if that's true or not I'm just saying that could be a possible explanation I've said this a couple times already but then how would you explain a drastic with the facial difference between two young children would you say that's genetic I mean it could just be genetic variation what do you mean I mean there's genetic that's part of having kids right genes vary from child to child and you know if the environment if the diet of people and where they're living isn't what determines their genetics over the course of years and years and years I mean then what would really do that though if what can you say that again if we my my what I was going to say was if you plant Italian person in the Netherlands for 10 generations you know I'm sure they would follow and they would start develop because if we can argue that all I mean and that kind of humans migrated from various parts of Africa to different parts of the world yeah that's generally accepted by people so if the original human was from African descent and it migrated all then what determined features such as our skin color type of hair height wouldn't all of these things be determined by the environment that we're living in and wouldn't part of that be diet it can be sure what and if that doesn't explain it then what does well but what I'm saying is that like part of it could be diet but part of it could be other environmental factors as well so for instance when we talk about like perfect jaws that might be chewing growing up rather than types of food eating or or the nutrients of the food available that might be more of an exercise thing than a nutrition thing I mean if you had a picture of a baby that came right out of a mother's womb and it had a very wide jaw and wide lips and then you took a picture of a baby that had a very narrow jaw and narrow lips you would just say that's purely genetic well it could be it could be genetic it could be based on the mother's diet but also the child with the wide jaw maybe they grow up if they eat only soft foods and their jaw doesn't accommodate like all the teeth that they would have growing up and maybe the one with the smaller jaw grows up to accommodate all the teeth anyway like yeah but what but then why do all indigenous groups that were still close to their diet such as various African tribes Australian Aborigines Native Americans why do they all have very specifically wide faces and lip development like these indigenous groups in various parts of the world although they look different their facial features are incredibly similar in regards to the lip development and uh let me just I'll bring up uh I'll bring up three pictures of three different indigenous groups but the individual pictures don't say much right way like we're talking we need to talk about wide groups of people right I mean how many pictures of Native Americans you want me to give you like 10 well not pictures we'd be talking about like averages between groups of people so like some sort of study across all the collected schools or whatever of certain things and then comparing these facial features and then creating a data set not right chewing gives lip gain stuff could I could I find that information I mean I don't know this is really fucking hard shit I mean I could find I could find that information but here would be interesting information okay is are there studies on historic people that had mainly plant based diets and then studies on historic people that had mainly meat based diets and the historic people with the eight more plants than meat ended up having shitty jaws compared to the people that ate more meats because I always under the understanding that most ancient people had were doing really good as far as teeth goes regardless of whether or not they ate more meat or more plants which would lend a little bit more credence to the idea that chewing things and having less processed foods grew you caused an environmental interaction with our jaws that made them accommodate our teeth more so than just eating more meat that would be the constant the constant factor in all of those indigenous diets is that 65 percent of their calories as a minimum came from animal foods but is that is that really true though I don't think that's true that every single group of people all indigenous peoples had 65 percent of their calories coming from animals that it varied from 55 percent to like 80 percent and even some indigenous groups would consume only me like the Inuits and the Eskimos what the reason I wanted to bring up the nature argument is because pulled climate the only possible way you could procure just in general in any climate in any part of the world before modern agriculture and humans have existed for long periods of time before modern agriculture cured enough calories from nature was from animal foods 100 100 percent there's no source of nutrition from plant foods pre-agriculture it was animal-based diet and then grain started to take place a lot of animal foods depending on accessibility in this book the nutrition and physical generation has they look at skulls of different types of Indians they looked at children showing changes in facial and dental arch formation from modern foods in the in the indigenous Seminole Indians this were normal with freedom from facial distortion in contrast with this the Indians of Florida who are living today in contact with modern civilized civilized foods under teeth they had much more tooth decay and showed a typical deformation with crowding of the teeth and narrowing of the face conditions that have been found in all human stocks went on an inadequate nutrition during the formative and early growth period this is on page just eat healthy little some young college student trying to prove a point from a single book you read the two primary books I mean what's in price nutritional nutrition physical generation you have William or Stephens is the fat of the land there are a lot of I'm pretty much any sort of write up on tribes I've read a lot about I can't remember the name of the book I think it's called something with the word white man and it's a book on Native American Indians and what they used to eat I've read a lot of books on like tribes on the binka on the Messiah a lot of studies on them as well okay I'll do more I'll try to do more research into the into I guess like these prehistoric diets and see how much variance there was from one group to another and then maybe we can revisit the conversation when I got a little bit more information about it or yeah I mean there's definitely you know even me it's just I'm kind of I'm all over the place with you know the various topics that I talked to related to this it's a like a marketable kind of way so close to diets people are following now but it's difficult because the main thing holding back this information is the lack of data on these people sure it I mean you could look at what the indigenous Aborigines ate all you want you could look you could look at what they looked like you could put two and two together but oh like correlative or causative studies on this then you know argue this point is it's it's difficult it's thing okay all right well hey I appreciate the conversation buddy do you have any final parting words if you guys are interested in this I mean you can read that book that's a pretty good explanation also a pretty good one I mean that's really it like you have to be pretty open-minded and read these books and then there's still a lot of you know even when I initially read these I still had a lot of reservations about this we aren't interested I can't I can't blame twitch I didn't honestly for the first half of this conversation I didn't even know you were live on stream so oh shit sorry no no it's okay no thank you I mean honestly if I thought it was I thought if I knew this was going to be live I would have prepared a lot more information I'm kind of just had some I had some stuff together and I had an account of the points I was going to argue so presented a decent amount of information that if people want to look at it but I mean I can understand that if people don't have like a black and white concrete thing that you can put in front of them it's very difficult to uh and and there's so much conflicting stuff too a lot of conflicting theories on every single one of these topics but uh I don't want to take up any more time I know chat isn't really too enthusiastic about this topic but uh thanks for having me on I think if you are interested in revisiting this I'll try to I mean just let me know like what like what specifically you want to talk on and I'll try to have as many resources as possible okay cool all right well hey I appreciate the conversation man yeah enjoy the rest of the weekend guys yep bye I got here at the end but it sounded like you were debating a vegan phrenologist white nationalist truly the final boss of debating seemed like a nice guy though I feel like um I hate to do the correlation causation meme because we all do that in high school and it's done to death but it feels like sometimes people really want to draw very strong causal links from very convincing um correlational correlated data but um man it feels tempting to do that but I don't think you can do that hello my dude is Nathan getting anything dank for Christmas if so this is for something banker tell him merry Christmas from twitch chat not chat screw them also do you think he'll play rimworld full release or battle brothers expansion there you go there's that guy's channel if you're gonna go check him out but um um if you if you're saying things in chat so it cries it because I think you're like a really good example of this hold on so when you just say things in fat and chat like I'm triggered this person's retarded this is dumb blah blah blah but you never link anything or like make any other counter arguments like um I usually just like instantly ignore everything you say um yeah just like is uh what do you want hey man nice debate thanks that was uh a good one thanks buddy what did we get out of all that that's what I'm trying to figure out right now um uh somebody was just I don't know sorry somebody's making the argument that like a meat-based diet or a heavily meat-based diet is better for us health-wise than vegetables and whatnot and that the bioavailability of nutrients and vegetables is not high enough for them to be worthwhile I think consuming is generally um yikes um I didn't want to tell you about that man just what's unhealthy what's what what's considered as unhealthy um what do you mean what are you asking this is a very complicated question what what what's particular are you asking so you said if you eat bad foods you get a big old jaw okay no so one of the contentions was he was claiming that um eating largely meat-based diets allow either mothers to provide healthier breast milk or children to grow larger jaws and that the reason why we have trouble with things like our teeth today is because we consume more vegetables and not enough meat um the counter argument that I've usually seen presented or the main argument I've usually seen presented is that people generally um don't consume enough chewy foods growing up now and that's the reason why we can't accommodate all of the teeth in our mouths anymore that our jaws are getting to come work out