 All right, so you look really good big and strong. How long have you been training for a man? Well, I've been training actually for a long time, but I had a Few years break and now I've been training since the beginning of this year. So Nine months ten months. Awesome. Awesome. So the question we're asking people today is do you think you have to eat animals to be Healthy and put on muscle mass vegan tattoo. Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, awesome So you don't think you can get new all your nutrients from plants. No, okay Do you know which specific nutrient you would need from animals? What I've heard most is B12, okay Yeah, where you're B12 from B12 found in the well B12 is a bacteria found in the dirt and water Yeah, so easily supplemented Supplement yeah But I mean going back in size when you'd have supplements then read the guys get it from if they were vegan Yeah in back in time. Well, though the vegetables root vegetables pick from the ground would have dirt on them Cool, and they wouldn't be sanitised so the B12 and bacteria would be on the vegetables But because you know everything's sanitised now B12. Yeah, you know, it's been added to the animal feed and injected into the animals as well So If we took care of B12 What other nutrients do you feel like would have issues with? What about essential amino acids protein? Mm-hmm. Ah So you don't you can't get protein from plants, you know, I think I know you do I mean protein ease a combination of amino acids are the correct combination of amino acids. Yeah, okay, so Do you think there are vegan bodybuilders that have no, I know there are there are I know well, what about John over here? I guess I mean if you're asking questions like this, then he must be vegan He's onto us. How long you guys been being it for John He's been vegan for three years. Yeah, and what about I mean, how long you've been training? Yeah, so I've been training for about five years now Yeah, so two of those years were with meat and animal products and then three of them were as a vegan Objectively, how do you compare the weight gain? I mean, well, I have like a ton of videos online to see the transformation but at this body fat when I switched to a plant-based diet was I'd say I was about 83 kilos now I'm about 93 so three years. That's a yeah for a natural. It's a pretty good progress, you know Yeah, and what's the you got supplement, right? I? Do take a B12. Yeah, I do take B12 like plant-based protein powders also Yeah, a little bit times a week Yeah, like when I I'll throw in a smoothie if I'm having like a big workout or something. Yeah, but yeah like Like anyone else like I used to do it before as a meteor as well So like yeah, like four times a week. I'll have a shake or something. Okay. All right, so if How long you been training a couple weeks? two weeks, I'm not a very good Measurement, but anyway, what so the where I wanted to take this was Animals obviously have to go to a slaughterhouse in order for us to eat their bodies and for that individual animal that It's not a life of hell. Yeah, it's it's sort of taking their life unnecessary. I know I know but back home what I do is and Honestly, yeah, what I do is I buy Grass-fed like beef and I know for a fact I mean they the way they were raised and slaughtered and everything so it's very very ethically correct Okay, so that's what I do. I mean, I know a lot of people don't do that But I do oh wow so all your your animals that you eat have been looked after and treated correctly Yeah, I pay a little bit more, but that's what I do. Okay. Yeah So do you have out when when they end up at the slaughterhouse? Do you think that is ethical? I mean It's very fast. I mean, it's very quick the way they do it with the airgun and Yeah, I mean ethically. I mean I Don't like animals being tortured, but if they're not being tortured then yeah, yeah, okay so you a bolt gun in the head and then a knife across the throat to drain their blood and stuff like that is Do you think that that is necessary if we can look like John and still get our nutrients and train and I mean Everybody can't look like John. Well, let's just say we can look somewhere near. We don't lose our game potentially He's obviously genetics come into other things, but if we've got evidence of more Looking similar to John. Do you think it's unnecessary? What about let's let's talk about how plants are raised? I mean if everyone was vegan even now Yeah, I mean the the area of the land where the plants are raised are grown Yeah, it's gotten a lot more dense, you know a lot more Plants on the same area of land. Yeah, so they use a lot of pesticides. I mean, do you guys eat organic? Not always not always, but what about the land that's being poisoned because of the pesticides? Yeah, that's that's that's an issue to a plant agriculture isn't perfect But if we were to think of how many of those Crops are being fed to animals versus humans it's to the magnitude Well, that's the idea animals are supposed to eat like cows are supposed to eat grass That yeah, I eat the animals or some of the animals that eat grass. Yeah, they're at like a race So everything's yeah done as properly as possible. Yeah, so from an environmental perspective grass raised beef is less sustainable than factory raised beef But from an ethical it's less sustainable. Yeah, because it's it takes up more land and it's they create more gas Well me then gas well the way it's supposed to work is They're supposed to be rotation basically the animals eat the grass then they Basically their shit supposed to be the manure. Yeah, and and then the fertilizer. I mean Biodynamic farming you basically and then they move on to the next spot and then the they grow the plants And that's the way supposed to be yeah, so that's what I strive towards or yeah buying those products that are grown that way That's that's yeah, that might be considered better than obviously torturing an animal their whole life in a factory farm And also I mean growing a crop or a plant on the same land like year year around like every year Then there's really no nutrients in the land anymore. They only grow because of the fertilizers and Artificial stuff basically, so you're not really getting getting nutrients from it from the plants I mean if there's nothing in the ground the way the nutrients get into the plant is through the ground Then you're supposed to do a rotation the the ground is supposed to recover From growing the plants so how do the the animals get the nutrients in their body? That's what I'm saying the plant. That's what I'm saying I buy the animal products that are raised yeah Grass fed basically awesome or pasture raised or whatever they do the rotation so from Do you think there's a better way than killing these animals on the on the do you think we can sustain the whole plan I'm gonna ask you guys a better way to killing animals, and I don't think it's ethical. I mean torturing animals that's what I'm saying, but if Basically, that's what we've been doing for thousands of years. Yeah. Yeah, I mean tens of thousands of years hundreds of thousands of years Yeah, we have yeah, do you think we should continue doing it because we've done it forever Or do you think maybe we can move forward? I think we should do it correctly Through the rotation and that the ethical correctly and everything then it's it's sustainable So you would say I mean and at the end of the day if you look at the peak picture There's just too many of us anyway Yeah, like we got do you think we can sustain the whole population on these grass fed cattle on the out the back But we got seven million people. I know I would need to look at some statistics, but I mean There's a lot of people Plants we can feed a lot more people and get a huge catastrophe or something You know it's I mean if you look at history then there's always been a cataclysmic event or something Yeah, and we've the human population has reduced and we've grown again, but I know it's so big again that it's it's it's Moving towards the direction that it's not not sustainable anymore and they're there's probably something coming who knows you know Well, what about if we all ate plants instead of these animals, which are obviously that's not sustainable either I mean really yeah, because you're talking about basically plant factory farming That's what I spoke about the fertilizers and pesticides and everything and if you grew the plants Basically organically yeah, then the plants wouldn't grow on the same area of land all year round every year But we'd need less land to grow plants because we go because even if you look at wheat then wheat was a lot different if you Let's take Ezekiel wheat. You know it Ezekiel. Yeah, okay, so basically the crop was a lot shorter and basically you need a lot more land So back in the days let's say thousands of years ago You had a lot less plants growing on the same area of land But there was the thing was that there was a lot fewer us also. Yeah. Yeah, well, so We obviously Cutting down the rainforest to grow soybeans here to feed to these animals So I don't approve of growing soybeans. Yeah, we're feeding the soybeans to cows and And they're clearing land for grass-fed beef What they do in factory farming and they're also I don't agree with that Yeah, and they're clearing the land to for crop for grass-fed fed cattle as well in the Amazon and stuff like that That's probably the main that is the main cause of Amazon deforestation have the grass fields. Yeah Over there. I mean brazil well because Argentina and they're clearing the clearing forest for that. Yeah, I Don't know when okay guys you can go look for yourself what the leading cause of Amazon deforestation is it's cattle ranching So check it out. Well, did you know if you thought yeah? Yeah, if you know I grew up in Brazil Yeah, the 95% of the Amazon destruction. Unfortunately is to yeah grass Why haven't they gone to factory farming and just feeding them crops? Why are they better better? But why have they taken down for us to basically? Because they need more lands. Why would they I guess for grass-fed beef? Yeah, I don't know Because if you find I don't think the demand is that big because people really I mean if they look at the piece of meat They don't know whether it's grass-fed or grain-fed So I don't think the demand for grass-fed beef is that big currently nearly half of all United States land is already Dedicated to animal agriculture if we're to switch over to grass-fed beef It will require clearing every square inch of the United States up into Canada all of Central America and well in South America And this is just to feed the United States demand on meat I think there's plenty of grassy Knowles grassy fields to grow the glass grass that be let's just say you found out like from and like let's say you Found out that it grass-fed was just was clearing for us It wasn't sustainable is heard in the environment and it was killing these individual animals. Would that change your position? You're Speaking hypothetically. Yeah. Yeah question question. Let's say for example. I could ask you the same question Let's say you found out that the all the plants were being factory farmed and pesticides and fertilizers and everything Would you switch to animal products? I would switch to the mode the one that causes causes the least harm exactly eggs and dairy and stuff, right? I mean well there well they're exploiting and slaving and killing individuals and they're eating plants vegan propaganda that they're Slaving and they're keeping them in chains. I mean again. I don't approve of factory farming That's where yeah over 90% of our Meat and stuff comes from so that's probably the main issue. Yeah. Yeah, so basic I'll answer your question. I agree that the problem is factory farming It's the most it's most of the problem, but grass-fed wouldn't solve that problem No, no, you know this plant base would solve that problem, but so I would choose the one that caused the least harm What would you do? You know the numbers. I mean you say it's not sustainable I mean if we went grass-fed and everything but that figure doesn't even take into Consideration that much of that land isn't suited to graze livestock We would have to convert all mountain ranges to grassland clear ancient forests and national parks to grazing and Demolish every city just to make room to graze cows Well, we could both research that I can give you a Source that give you some verifiable again what we agreed on. There's too many of us There's how many seven eight billion seven billion seven all eating grass-fed beef No, they need they need lots of land that their cows are obviously causing and greenhouse gases And if you produce or grow the plants the way they're supposed to be grown How much land would it take? Well, let's just say we found a way of doing agri-plant agriculture in a more sustainable Less harmful way. Let's say we found a way to do grass-fed We're still harming the animal when we bulk on them in sluice. That's what we agree That's what we agree on is that we neither of us likes animals being tortured. So I don't like them being harmed at all So I don't like them being harmed either. That's that's why it's we're the same then. Yeah, the same of course Yeah, but that's if you obviously don't know the way a humane slaughterhouse works Basically, there's a spiral. So the So let's say the cow the cow doesn't see other cows suffer or die or anything So and it's very quick. So basically they don't see or feel anything. It's very instantaneous Do you think that that's humane if they don't see it or feel it put yourself in their position or a dog in their position? No again, yeah, like I'm trying to like get you to black switch over and say would that be humane for me? Because I wouldn't want that done to me personally. I think that that would be really scary. Well, let's say Let's go to a movie. Let's say plan of the apes, right? So apes are Ruling the the planet right that we live on. Let's say you're and If they had been eating us from the beginning of times Then they would be doing that for us to us. Basically, we have been eating animals from the beginning of time So yeah, but you're comparing your comparing apples to oranges Does that make it right if we've been doing it since the beginning of time? Like if the apes had been enslaving us and eating us in the beginning of time, let's take death row inmates Do you do have a preference whether they're being injected poisons or they get the airgun? Death row inmates and how does that relate to killing innocent animals? But you're comparing killing animals that we've eaten all along to killing I was saying if you think There's a humane way to kill an animal Do you think there's a humane way to take a dog's life or your own life if you don't if you want to live if you have An interest in living that's what I was trying to say with that Like I was just trying to say if it's humane for the cow the individual cow Would it be humane for someone like you he has an interest in living? Let's let's take the area of land where the plants are grown You think it's humane if you and him and your families and whole city was living on a I don't know 100 meters per 100 meters like land you are all together. It's not humane either. So basically Who gets hurt from that again? What individual gets sorted from that? No, he's a humane Like well humane I mean if you if you live all next to each other So we're using this this land to sustain ourselves with the plants and your it's I don't understand So basically it's vegan bullshit right now, right? It's vegan bullshit. It's vegan bullshit because you're You're taking very on illogical facts basically. Yeah. Yeah, because I'm giving you examples Kind of similar, but you're talking apples and oranges. Yeah, I'm trying to understand your analogies No, but yeah, but you're just attacking the people that are eating animals Even if they're doing it the best way possible. I think it's better for sure Yeah, and it might be better and we've always been doing this but but then again you're coming back to killing someone Let's say if plants, you know, they have research that plants actually with the wind and everything they communicate teacher Yeah, they react to stimuli in the environment. Yeah, and they actually They start producing more poison and everything Insects yeah insects eat them they produce more poisons. So basically they don't have a soul per se, but they don't have Sentient consciousness. Yeah. Yeah, so they don't they can't experience suffering They don't have a subjective experience. Yeah, so they're different to a cow All in all maybe we should be eating rubber or something because now we go for the one that causes the least amount of harm And if plants can't feel pain or they can't experience fear or suffering we'd go for them I get your point. I mean again, I don't like animals being tortured enslaved suffering I don't like any of that. No one does and there's a bunch of people that might but yeah Yeah, yeah, they're not all there, but you I can tell that you care I do enough and you've looked into this a bit to choose free range You're having a conscious decision which I admire but then again, I mean, let's come back to the plants if you If you were really ethical about everything you ate and everything the way you are about protecting animals and not seeing animals suffer Then not just suffer by the way. Okay. Yeah, I can't harm everything. Yeah. Yeah, why don't you eat all organic? I mean because You're eating pesticides like the pesticides doesn't harm really do you know the harm as many animals as They actually do I mean because you're saying that the animals factory farmed animals, which is 90% you say, right? They get a pesticide-laden plants. Exactly the soy and stuff the basic. That's what you say, right? So yeah, if the animals are being harmed also if they poison basically or are they not Animals are being harmed if they are they not the animals are being harmed if they eat the poison They they yeah, yeah, I don't need those animals cancers and I don't eat those animals I'd be eating the plants. I'd be eating the plants. Yeah, exactly. Yeah club life aside basically I'm eating that. Yeah, so life side. Yeah, but that's my choice and that's my choice But there's no indivisible. There's no victim in my choice There is less a lot less so like there's animals that's iron plant Ties between cancer and all the other diseases and glyphosite and yeah the poison so there's victims Individual human beings that are victims of eating pesticide. I mean they don't die The very second that they eat the pesticides or the glyphosite. They develop diseases I mean five years ten years 20 years, maybe yeah, yeah, but There's no sort of direct we're not killing an animal at the same time We're not killing an animal at the same time If you don't have an argument then you got we're going we're killing animals, you know as well as eating pesticide plant So if you see the big picture if you look at big picture then what we agree on is factory farming is bad Whether you do it to plants or animals, right? No, no, I don't think it's I don't think plants have moral value Like an animal does I think that's okay to use the poisons and glyphosite and everything I think there's a better way Hmm, but I think we should deal with the main issue Which is these individual animals that are going to slaughter houses for no reason when we can now you're coming back The same argument basically when you have a well, it's the main it's the main issue No, it's not I mean if you do it in a humane way and the animals and suffer and it's I mean all its life It's it gets to eat grass and be free on the grass They don't live all their life, you know that they only live two years of their life They should live to their 20. Yeah, I mean if they're so we cut it off really short if they're wrong ethically Then they live longer usually it's 10 years and more ten. Yeah, I've never seen a farm No, no, okay I have back home because the the place place I get my meat from I know everything about them basically the slaughterhouse thing the The way the reason they're ten years old They're close to ten now so they're half their life span basically what they do is you mean the animals are ten The animals are ten years old when they get slaughtered at least wow, so that's half their life span Do you know I had a friend? I mean I have a friend. Yeah, and he used to He used to work in Australia because that's what a lot of young people do right and he told me he worked at this farm and The family had a huge cattle ranch. Yeah, and they had animals cows that were 20 years old and basically they died of old age, okay, okay So what happened the family said they would usually what they would do is bury the animals But McDonald's by the but buys them and McDonald's they die of old age Yeah, and McDonald's and McDonald's buys the animals. So that would be the probably the only the most ethical way McDonald's to If an animal dies of old age you can go and eat their body if you want that animal hasn't been The life has been taken by you. Do you know so basically it's but that's that's your choice It's your choice. What do you think about the hunting and killing your own food? Well, I think it's I think if you don't have to do it to survive or to be healthy or to look like John Then I think it's unnecessary like John is unnecessary. Also. I mean even looking like me. You don't have to look like this I mean, you don't have to know look like you. Yeah. Yeah Well, if I'm healthy and happy then then why should I go out and shoot an animal in the head? If you need a food then if I was gonna start today, but we're not in that situation me and you right now Well, the problem is We're so advanced. That's why we're not in that situation If we weren't as advanced we'll probably be all eating banana bananas here. That's so true We're advanced and if we both of us all three of us we'll be living where I'm from Northern Europe basically. Yeah, it's it's October middle of October almost We wouldn't be able to eat any plants. Oh We can import plant say yeah. No if we weren't as advanced basically We are we are we have to talk in this in this hunter-gatherers then we would all three of us be would be eating meat right now That's a hypothetical. We're not we're in this society right now. Is it justified in this society? But then when I hypothetically the same way talked about Bali and bananas then you agreed But when I talked about northern Europe and animals, then you don't agree because you're saying that we're hunter and gatherers Like back then but that's justified back then It's not justified now if we weren't as advanced and we were in Bali and then we'll be eating bananas and everything's okay, right? Cuz but if we weren't as if we had no choice. Yeah, I wouldn't be I wouldn't be even having this discussion with you We don't have a choice, but we have a choice Yeah, but we do we have a choice. Yeah like in this society now. Yeah But if you think it's I mean the importation of all the foods and everything that's normal and But it's like we have a choice to either kill animals or not And that's the thing we have a choice to grow our food ethically Also, I mean not to even grow our food, but the food that we buy. Yeah, we do we have a choice I mean we could make that next step. We could make it with our dollars That's I mean the more the more we buy that the good food the the more they produce of it supply and demand exactly Exactly, then why are we all voted? Why are you eating glyphosate and pesticides? So if we all voted for free range Me all of us seven billion of us that's how many animals go into slaughterhouses Unnecessarily when we have plants to eat same arguments again same I mean you're probably gonna mention slaughterhouses and killing animals 10 more times if we continue this conversation, but I'm making valid points. So basically the point is Things are screwed up now, right? Yeah factory farming pesticides all the shit and too many people and pollution and stuff like that Pollution is I mean doesn't really affect our food that much Pollution doesn't I mean Not directly the way I mean the way like bolt gunning a cow does for an instance. Yeah, or like spraying poison over Bro, we're gonna have to end that there, but thanks so much for your debate All right guys leave your comments down below. Who do you think won this debate the bodybuilder or the vegan?