 When we awaited the arrival of EO for District 7, she was at another function, so she would be joining momentarily. So if it is all right with everyone, if we could just wait a few minutes or a minute or two, I would hope, so that she could join and commence. Is that okay with you and your team? Yes, it is. We're here for all. Thank you. That's fine. That's fine. Yes. I was just on a call with her. Thank you. We're not signing on right now. Apologies. Good evening, Ms. Emanuel. Hi, Ms. Good evening. Yes, we are all here. Okay. Thanks. Good evening, everyone, and welcome to our consultation on special education needs in St. Lucia. This evening, we are meeting to discuss the policy document to guide a special education in St. Lucia. For those of us who are working directly with children in the schools, we would have a deeper appreciation for special education at this time in our education sector, and we would know that it is an area at this time which is very dangerous, as for some reason or the other, we are seeing an influx of children in the education system with special education needs. And so whatever decisions we take on what would guide the processes on how we deal and manage them would be very crucial at this time. And so it is incumbent on us to take this process very seriously to ensure that whatever we put into this document would guide whatever we want to see happening in the education system in the near future. And so I'm hoping that this discourse this evening would be open and honest and frank and person would make some valuable contributions on the way forward for special education in St. Lucia. So welcome to this this course and let us hear how people have interpreted the information presented in the various documents. So thank you Miss Immanuel and sorry about the delay. Oh you are most welcome Miss. Thank you. We understand the demands upon you as an education officer for such a large district. Without further ado we pass on to the consultants. We have with us a joint board of teacher education. The consultant team who are executing the development of a special needs education policy for St. Lucia. The key consultants we have Dr. Dion Edwards Coe, Dr. Jules Spencer Hernandez and Miss Kathy Depradine. Dr. Coe. Good afternoon everyone. Good afternoon. Thank you for joining us. We are quite delighted. This is our fourth consultation and so far I can say that we've had some insightful conversations with the people of St. Lucia and we're grateful that you've taken the time to join us. Now I want to start with an outline just to give you a sense of where we're going. So the presentation is in two parts. The first part provides the background to the policy, what underpins it. And the second part focuses on the specific policy goals and some of the strategic actions particularly the key strategic actions that will need to be implemented in order to make this real. And what's important is that we take this seriously. It requires a shift in how we think about the children, how we think about the system, how we access the system, but nevertheless what is important is the expected outcome that we will have an education system that reaches all our children. And I said all our children because they belong to the region and so they're all our children. Okay, so our starting point was the objectives of the terms of reference that was given to us and they should give you an idea of what our remit was. Now St. Lucia's overall objective is really to improve the public education system to transform the system and to make it responsive and that word responsive to the needs of all learners and to importantly align the system to the requirements of the 21st century labor market. So our job was to develop this gender sensitive policy and strategy on behalf of the government of St. Lucia with respect to providing the best options for educating children with special needs in the least restrictive environment. Now my colleague Joan will elaborate on what is meant by the least restrictive environment. She is really the special education guru and you'll see why when she begins to talk about the policy goals. But I want to spend just a half a minute or less than a half a minute to talk to speak specifically to what is meant by gender sensitive. Within the framework that the UN has from completely being gender blind, I guess, to being gender responsive, which is at the highest level, gender sensitive highlights the need for an awareness that there are things in the school system, their ways, their processes and procedures that affect male and female students differently. And so all throughout the entire process, we focused on ensuring that we understood what was happening for boys and what was happening for girls. So all the data was disaggregated in this way. And importantly, many of the strategic actions focus on dealing with issues related to gender. The key policy issue is the recognition that there are barriers to learning in the public education system as it is now, and that there are some learning needs that are not being addressed and some of these needs stem from a range of factors, including, as is listed here, impairment, psychosocial disturbances, differences in ability, life experiences, deprivation, negative attitudes, inflexible curriculum, inaccessible or unsafe environment, policies and legislation that were written a long time ago and need to be redrafted in terms of the current context, education managers and teachers who really don't have the skills to work with children who present with different sorts of needs. And so the government of St. Lucia recognizes that all children, and it's important to emphasize all children need educational support. So whether those children are profoundly disabled or they're profoundly gifted, it's a spectrum from those children who can't help themselves to those children who are superially gifted, giftedness is also considered a special need. And it's important to highlight this from the beginning, that we're not just looking at some children, we're looking at all children. Now in terms of the approach that we took to develop the policy, the policy is evidence based. So it's based on the data that we collected. So that was in two parts. The first part included an analysis of existing legislation, the existing Education Act, existing draft policies, it also included analysis of the Ministry's strategic policy documents and importantly analysis of the statistics over a number of years. And when you have data like that over a number of years, you can track the children by cohort to see what is happening to them. The second part included conducting 35 stakeholder consultations, but these were really 35 interviews or semi-structured interviews where we try to get the information in terms of what service delivery look like, what the processes look like, what are the procedures when a child has to be referred. So we were able to kind of get some descriptions around how the system worked and the impact on children's lives that provided the policy analysis which underpinned the development of the policy. In other words, we didn't just come up with these things out of our heads. We actually did the research to provide the basis for this. So one of the key things that stakeholders were really concerned about was that the existing law, the existing legislation does not provide sufficient coverage for a coordinated system of special education. And in so far, they highlighted gaps in the delivery of services, the delivery of instruction in the curriculum, intervention programs, assessment, accountability and support services. They were particularly concerned about the long wait times for assessment and even to get back the results, qualified personnel to conduct clinical assessment. So a formally established multidisciplinary team with the required expert, the occupational therapist, the clinical psychologist, the physiotherapist, the speech and language pathologist, qualified special educators, as in not just teachers operating in the capacity of a special educator, but actually qualified as a special educator. One key issue was accessible school plans, whether or not children with mobility issues were able to access the plans. And later on, Cathy will talk about assistive devices and the assistive technology that's required in school to help those children. The stakeholders were also emphatic about what was happening at a secondary school level in terms of the gaps in instruction for children with SEN and gaps in the referral, assessment and skills training for those children who are identified with special needs to transition from school to work or further training. And that's an important consideration, especially when you're trying to build a productive labor market. Now, in terms of the findings from the desk review, of course, as the stakeholder said, we found that the Education Act is not, as it is, the 2005 version, not the current version that's on the review, the 2005 was not aligned with the various conventions that the ministry, not the ministry, the government had sent of St. Lucia had signed up to. And I'll list of those I'll speak to in about a second. The draft policy for SEN has also been in draft for several years, and that in itself presents an issue because it means that it's not enforceable once it's in draft service provision, missing what we refer to an intersectoral framework. You might say collaboration, cooperation, coordination, that is a missing element in terms of the joint or partnership work that is needed between health, welfare and education in order to inform what happens to children when they enter the education system. The organization structure of the special ed unit, and we particularly wanted to focus on wanted to focus on this because it's such an important part, it's core to the delivery of services. So it's important that the special ed unit is organized in such a way that it can reach all the students. In terms of the data and the analysis, one of the key things we found was that from as early as MST 2, based on the data, we can see that there are children who are lagging behind. Now, given very little remediation over the years between grade 2 and grade 6, those children carry that lag into secondary school. And so there's this knock on effect where underperformance is actually transferred to the secondary school system. We also found that 78% of all the repetition in primary school took place at grades K, grade 1 and 3, and 82% of dropouts at the secondary level at forms 4 and 5 were not saying all these children are special ed, were saying that their conditions, their circumstances that have led to this kind of pattern. I spoke earlier about the conventions that the ministry signed up to, and we want to draw your attention to the Convention on the Rights of the Child. That's the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, the UN Convention on the Rights of Children with Disability, the strategic development goals, which is the SDGs, the CARICOM regionally, CARICOM HRD strategy, and the OECS education strategy. So in other words, we're anchoring this in what has already been agreed to. And so these are the principles that guided the development of the policy and led to this framework that Dr. Hernandez is going to speak to in a bit. But I'm going to pause here for two minutes and take any questions. So if you have a question or a comment at this point in time on what we've presented so far, you can go ahead and ask those questions. No questions, nothing in the chat. Okay, so we're going to move on and Dr. Hernandez, Joan Spencer-Nandez will take over from here. Good evening, all, and welcome. My colleague, Dr. Deanne Edwards Kerr, she is a measurement specialist at the University of the West Indies and she is a researcher of no mean order. I am a senior lecturer and Dr. Joan Spencer-Nandez, as she mentioned, and I am the manager of the Joint Board of Teacher Education and also, as I said before, a senior lecturer with responsibility for special education. So both of us are based at Mona Campus and we have online also one of your very own Dr. Kathy Depradeen. Kathy, go ahead before I start, introduce yourself. Thank you so much, Dr. Hernandez. Good evening, everyone. As indicated, I am Kathy Depradeen. I am attached to the South Lewis Community College, where I serve as the head of the Modern Language Learning Unit and a teacher educator who is very, very passionate about the capacity building of teachers in particular. And of course, I engage in a lot of educational research, particularly that which affects policy development. I am very happy to be here and I look forward to a very spirited discussion this evening. Thanks, Dr. Thank you. OK, so we're going to go ahead now and share with you what this policy is going to look like. I'm going to do three of them and Kathy is going to do the other three in terms of the six policy components that will enable the achievement of the overall policy goal. So what is the overall policy goal? That inclusion is systemic, system wide and learners with special education needs and disabilities have access to high quality, appropriate education to meet their individual needs. Now, what do we mean by send? Yes, we're familiar with disabilities in that we know that there are some some learners who have specific learning disabilities, disabilities, so they may be dyslexic in that they have difficulty learning to read and they may have difficulty learning, mathematical concepts and so on. But they have normal intelligence or even superior intelligence. We have those children who may be visually impaired, blind, deaf, hearing impaired. We have physically challenged children. We have children with autism. We have children with who may have emotional disturbances and so on. So we know those categories, roughly 14 of them. But when it comes to special education needs, there are some children who are functioning well below age and great expectancy level for various reasons and we can't leave them out. They are vulnerable. They have challenges and Dion mentioned some of the challenges they may have. So they may have attendance problems, behavior problems. They may have attendance, maybe due to their circumstances in that they may be below the poverty level. And so they may not have the funds to come to school every day. They may live in remote rural settings where they don't have access to services and so on. So where they live, the language they speak, their first language may very well be French Puyol and coming into the school system expected to make the transition or to go between the two languages may have been a challenge for some of them. And as a result, they're presenting with some difficulties that we have to attend to. And as Dion already mentioned, we also had the gifted and talented learner who has special needs that must be addressed. We don't want them to stay with the curriculum as is designed for the average learner and they are way ahead of themselves and we don't attend to their needs because what happens is that we may end up having more difficulties and behavior problems, attendance, attention issues and so on as a result of not meeting their needs. So they are part of this group. Now, at the center of this overall policy is access to quality inclusive education in order to achieve that. We have six policy components that we're looking at tonight. I'm going to start with the first one that I'll be talking about, which is identification, intervention and placement. That's extremely important that we identify the earliest possible time for these children who are having challenges within the school system. And therefore, what are the kinds of intervention that are appropriate based on their needs? And then where do we place them? What are the placement options that we have? General education, classroom, special school, special class within general education and so on. So we look at those to see how we identify, how we intervene and what do we do when it comes to placement? Then what are the organizational structures that are necessary to ensure that we can, in fact, achieve access to quality inclusive education? Organizational structures as relates to the school level, the community level, the district level, the Department of Education level, the government of St. Lucia level. What are the structures that are necessary to ensure success? Then we have to also look at the infrastructural provisions and support mechanisms. Do we have, when we say a child with special needs must be included if the child's needs can be met in a general education classroom? What do the child has physical challenges? Do we have ramps? Do we have the necessary technology that will enable that child to maximize his or her potential? What are the support mechanisms necessary in the school to guarantee equity that that child can, in fact, perform to to his potential or her potential? Then we need to look at what are the human resources necessary for us to be successful? We look at it in terms of quantity and quality. What are the minimum requirements that our teachers or clinical psychologists or physiotherapists and so on, what do they need to have to be part of a team to address the needs of these youngsters? Our teachers, what qualifications do they need? What training do they need? And so on. Then, of course, we must look at the curriculum. What are the curricular adaptations and modifications necessary? The curriculum is typically designed for the average learner straight down the middle. So you gain a year in a year, grade one, grade two, grade three and so on. But in reality, that doesn't happen that way. A grade two child may be functioning like a grade five, six child. And therefore, the grade two curriculum needs some adaptations and modifications to suit the needs of those learners who are way ahead. Then there are those who are not there in grade two, but they're functioning like a kindergarten child in that they're still learning letters and the sounds the letters make and so on. And versus those who are in the street in the middle, ready for grade two work. Yes. So we must cater as a teacher. We have to cater to the needs of all the learners in front of us. How do we do that? So can we modify the curricula to ensure that their needs are met? Then we have to talk about stakeholder involvement. This cannot be done by the government of St. Lucia alone. We are heavily dependent on parents being highly involved, the community, the international agencies or private sector, public organizations, non-government organizations, everyone has a part to play. But how do you do that? It can't be that there's no plan. So what is the plan that is going to be implemented to ensure that the contribution, because you see stakeholders have to keep us real. Stakeholders have to ensure that they're advocating for access to quality, inclusive education and to help to monitor what is happening as we implement over time. So I'm going to go speak now on the. Oh, I don't have control. They are next slide, please. OK, I'm going to speak on the first one we mentioned. Which is intervention, identification, intervention and placement. Now, the overall policy goal here speaks to the fact that all learners with special education needs and disabilities will have access to quality, appropriate, inclusive education with free and compulsory primer and secondary education like any other child in their communities, their peers, unless carefully, unless it is clearly demonstrated by assessment observations and so on, that the child's educational welfare and social needs may not be adequately met in a general education classroom. This is simply saying that we want equity. We have to ensure that everybody who qualifies can be educated in general education classroom. However, if your needs cannot be met there, what are the options that we have? And so I'm going to look at the. Areas contributing. What do we need to do to improve identification, intervention and placement? One of the first things we have to look at is our referral systems. Our referral systems must speak to the earliest possible time that a child is identified as having a need. Where do we begin? What does it look like? Does it begin at the school level or the ministry level and so on? We're advocating that the referral system must speak. Initially, must come from either the parent or the school and that we have school based teams. And these school based teams will investigate, will review the case once a parent comes forward or a teacher comes forward or a community member comes forward and say, hey, I do believe that this child is having some challenges. Then if it is that the school based team is not able to deal with it because it is a bit more than what they thought, but they would have reviewed it and upscale it to say the district level or to the education department level so that there is that system in place and everybody understands it in terms of how we refer, when we refer, to whom we refer, to whom do we refer, what documents do we need as we plan to make referrals and throw up the system. And early identification, the earliest possible time now some children present with disabilities at birth. And therefore the Ministry of Health knows this. We may not know that in education. So again, that's another issue that we're going to tackle. But many children don't show disabilities at birth. Yes, as they develop, we might figure out that this child is not seeing very well or not hearing very well. Or you're five, you're six now and your letters and your letter sounds and so on. There are little indicators that may be telling us that, wow, you might be having a little challenge. How early can we begin? But then again, some may go all the way up to high school seeming quite normal, adjusting well, and then suddenly in grade seven or grade eight or grade nine, a problem emerges. The problem could be that that child might have been in an accident and has some effects from that. The child may be suffering from verbal, physical or sexual abuse and is responding to that abuse and therefore maybe excessively rude or disruptive and so on. Suddenly or may have just withdrawn into self, crying easily, not participating in school, not doing the work. And this is not the person that we know. So there are things that can happen down the line. But the very first time that this is noticed, we are saying. At system must be in place to address those needs at the earliest possible time that these needs present themselves. We also need to look at culturally relevant and standardized assessment instruments that give our children a fair chance to show what they can and cannot do. We don't want items that are discriminating against or children in the region and in particular, sent Lucian children. As we are speaking about sent Lucia here. So we need to examine the instruments that we're using to make sure that they are culturally relevant and as much as possible standardized for use in our cultural contexts. Then we have placement in the least restrictive or most enabling environment that speaks to the fact that once we know what is happening to the child, once we have diagnosed what the challenges may be and what the barriers to learning are, we want to put that child in the best possible environment to go and develop. Now, the least restrictive environment really speaks to a general education classroom where the child is with his or her peers within the same community that they live another way out someplace, gone to another type of school. However, if it is deemed by the multidisciplinary team who assess this child that this child deserves for now to be placed in a special school, then that is a part of the different offerings that we must have. So the special school is there for those children who must attend a special school. Sometimes it might actually be temporary and they can be reintegrated. But oftentimes they may have to be there for their complete educational journey. Then we talk. Some children are actually in hospitals for an extended period of time. They still have to get their education going. Others, teenage mothers are younger than teenage mothers might be in a special setting where their education has to be continued. And youngsters who are placed in places of safety, who may have committed a crime and so on, they still have to be educated. So what whichever environment that they're in, what is the appropriate way to assist them to develop their maximum and become productive citizens of St. Lucia. Then we have intervention program development. What does it look like based on the needs of the child is very important. We talk about an individualized education plan, IEP, based on what our findings are, and therefore these children must be educated based on what we know their needs are and not necessarily because the needs of grade three in the standard curriculum says you must do this. But if I don't know how to recognize numerals and don't understand that numeral two means I have two things or whatever it might be, then how am I going to be doing complex mathematical calculations if I don't have the foundation? So we have to deal with that. Then there's a whole matter of transition across phases and levels of education. When you leave preschool, you're a little baby and you have sleeping time, you have circle time, mat time, all these wonderful things that are going to be taken from you once you hit kindergarten, once you hit grades one, two and three, you're going to be expected to sit still in a chair for extra amount of hours while the teacher does what he or she is supposed to do. How do we help you to make that transition? And then just when you think you're getting comfortable, it's time to head over to secondary school. And that is another can be traumatic because here you go from one nice little lady or gentleman working with you all day, understanding you and you are now in a setting where a teacher comes in for 45 minutes or an hour and she's out again or he's out again and did you get it or did you not get it? That kind of transitional process. And then you are no longer with your pairs usually from your school that you were going to all these years in primary. So high school is now a melting pot. Am I prepared for that outside of the pass getting a particular grade and going to a school that I like or I wanted to attend or or not? What happens for me in terms of helping me to make that transition? So we have to put systems in place to ensure that these areas are dealt with. OK, any questions, concerns, issues, re-identification, intervention and placement? I think I spot two here in the chat. Miss Hain says, very valid point made. What are the support mechanisms that exist? Sadly, not much. The idea for teacher aid needs to be given serious consideration. The future projection should have this as a feature. Now, when we spoke with our teachers or principals or parents and so on in the certified consultation meetings that we had with over 100 and so a lot of persons or 100, we were able to identify that there are concerns that some children may in fact need what some people refer to as a shadow or a teacher's aid to be there while the child makes that transition. So there are several things that we have heard you with included in our recommendations so that the those children who are going to be in general aid, certain services must be there to ensure that their needs can be met and also quite important that the needs of other children in that setting must also be met. Yes, I'm going to go with combi rather than the first day. Considerations must be made to various aids, instructional aid, behavioral modification aid, counselors and social workers. You are quite correct. And these are some of the recommendations that are that have been made. And I don't think that is going to happen all in the first year. So they have to have a plan to build that out over time within at least say a three year period where they start to implement your government, the lower hanging fruits, the things that can be done right away versus those that they have to budget for and ensure that there are line items in the budget. And, you know, they can manage to do it over time. But a commitment has to be made to say, yes, these are some of the things that we must have. Risa Joseph, if a child has to be out at hospital for treatment for a few months, how will this be handled? How is that being handled now? Because I know that in the system, you have to once the officers, I think they're called, they have a different name. So someone will know that this child is out for extended periods. If that is not yet in place, and what has to be in place is that the child's education must continue. Their children who have been in hospitals for three years. My younger brother reminded us that he had an eye injury and so they had to stitch it and all kinds of challenges to place when he was about nine. He was in the hospital for six months, six months. Yes. So he got help to continue his journey, his education journey, because you can't have a child out of school for that long and not make provisions. So whether it is there now or to come, these are considerations that must be made. OK, anyone else? OK, the only may go on to the next. So we were talking about organizational structures and the overall policy goal for this is that policy and strategies describe how the support structures at all levels will be organized to enable schools to effectively implement inclusive education. What are we talking about here? Organizational structures. If we don't have certain structures in place, things fall apart. Agreed? We need to ensure that the financing is there, that the monitoring and evaluation of the goals and targets set and so on that you are able to account for what is happening in the system as we begin to roll out different aspects of it. So although there is an overall budget for education, what are the line items that must be there to speak to assisted devices? Retrofitting schools to ensure that ramps are there, et cetera, you know, material, teacher training, what is a budget like to ensure that there is in service training going on and so on. For the general education inclusive schools, there must be a structure that speaks to how this school is going to transform itself into an inclusive school. How will the principal manage such a school? What are the systems in place and the support mechanisms from the ministry, from the Department of Education, from the special education unit and so on to make this work? For secondary education, what are the structures to be in place so that once these children transition out of secondary ed, what's next for them? What structures will be in place to ensure that the journey continues? Our special schools that are existing right now, they have the minority of special needs children, children with special needs in their schools. Most of our children who have special needs are included by default. So I'm not identified, but they're there. So our special schools now have their own challenges. The curriculum, how relevant is it to the needs of the learners that they have in front of them? So we have to make sure that's appropriate also. What are the physical challenges? What are the barriers to learning that may in fact exist in some of our special schools? So our special schools must also be treated in the same way that we're looking at how to fix, how to enable our general education schools to be able to deal with access and quality education for the children in place there. So there are also inclusive units. So some units may actually be in a special in a general education school. And so you have a special class there. So the children are still able to interact with their age equivalent peers while they're there. And that also has value. Yes, a child may not be able to fully be fully included in the regular general education classroom, but may actually be there in a special class receiving intervention, but can interact with his or her peers in PE and other activities that are taking place in the school. So there is that integration, not just segregation into a special class at all times. Then we need to look at the ministries of education, health, anywhere social welfare is gender justice, because some of our children get into trouble. How do we treat with them? And so on. Now, the Ministry of Health has data that we need. And sometimes it's hopped up because of confidentiality issues and so on. What can we do to ensure that we're sharing? We are ensuring that we know we have the history on the child rather than to go all over again. Social welfare may actually be helping those children who come from very poor families, so how do we work together in the best interests of this particular child, what structure, what interministerial organization or committee and so on can be made available to ensure that we get our act together. And we're acting in the best interests of our children. Any questions, reorganizational structures, questions or comments on what was presented on organizational structures? OK, I'm not seeing anything in the chat, so we can go ahead. You will have a turn, your turn again. So I hope you're taking notes and some persons prefer to just go with everything and then come in, so make sure you have your notes. So my final discussion with you today has to do with curricular adaptations and modifications. What do we do with this curriculum that we have in front of us? The chief policy goal says the chief education officer will institute programs promoting equity. Very important and quality inclusive education that will ensure that the very needs of learners will be facilitated through curricular accommodations, modifications and adaptations and adaptive and assistive technology, which will allow all children to optimize their potential. That's a mouthful. What we're saying here is that. We know that the curriculum as it is doesn't speak to every learner in the classroom, and Saint Lucia has led the way in the region in big. They have you began the process and we worked with you of. Looking, examining your curriculum at the various levels and saying, look, how do we differentiate this? How do we ensure that different learners learning styles? Maybe as I am, I'm a strong visual learner and also auditory. Sorry. No, not a good auditory learner. Kinesthetic tile. So I like to do things like many boys like to do, to put things together and to visualize it than to listen to the teacher. I'm likely to be the child back in the days. And I was looking through the window and not necessarily paying enough attention while the teacher was talking, but if she had charts and she had a stop, I was there with her or if we're going to make things, I'm there with you. Yes, a little science experiment. I'd be the first person there. So how are we ensuring that different learning styles are being facilitated? So we need to look at the kindergarten through to form five national curricula and make the adjustments. We need to look at our pre-service teacher training programs. So at Sir Arthur Lewis, what is happening to teach training programs? There are all of our teachers graduating and are able, based on the program, they've been through to address the needs of all learners in their classroom. Do they have courses that speak to children with learning challenges? Do they have courses that introduce them to gifted and talented children? So they know the spectrum of learners that they're going to face in their classroom because they're not going to come out and graduate and go into a classroom and see everybody functioning at the same level and ready for my grade that I have my grade level work that I'm doing, it's not going to happen. So how well do we prepare them for the realities of the classroom? Then those teachers who are already out there, what kind of in-service training programs are necessary? They are getting some training programs now, but they have said to us, they need more, they need more. And because it's a small team of persons delivering the in-service training programs, then the Education Department has to look at how do we expand this? How do we include more persons to be able to deliver the in-service training programs? Then we have to look at universal design for learning. Are we meeting the needs of all learners? It's all wrapped up into differentiated instruction, response to intervention, what kind of intervention am I going to do in response to your needs? Yes. So that's what is happening. We're talking about typically in a classroom, three groups of learners, usually those who are on target, the way the curriculum is designed for them, those who are ahead of what the curriculum is saying, and those who are typically not ready yet for this grade level or this age equivalent curriculum that I have in front of me. And remember now, we have thought, we've been taught as educators that what we must do is child centered. It's not teacher centered. It is not curriculum centered. It's not Department of Education centered. It's not MST 2, MST 4, or whatever centered. It's child centered, right? Assessment accommodations, extremely important. Why? You may not know this, but some of the doctors or nurses or teachers or engineers may actually be dyslexic, have challenges, may have attention problems that they went through, may actually have gotten their degree orally because they were able to sit. If they did it in the UK or in the US, you can get a reader. No CXC all the way up to Cape can give you a reader. And they do. They can give you a writer. They can give you extra time if it is properly documented, what your needs are. So they're doing it. And to some extent, you're doing it with your national exams, but it's not being done in the general education classrooms. Everybody gets one out of this paper, one always is. Even though my final motor coordination is not properly developed, I can't write so fast as that one over there and I'm going to be penalized. But what if a little extra time can help me because you know my needs? Then it must be done. So we have to look at assessment accommodations and that's all wrapped up in the curricula, adaptations and modifications. OK, thank you so much. Any questions related to curricula, adaptations and modifications? Time to feel them. There are two in the chat, though. OK, thank you. So one says, Miss Haines, the idea of curriculum review and reform must be given serious attention. Agreed. The pace of content information and the mass of content does not always all the well for students who are challenged in particular students with learning disabilities. You are so correct. A sense of hopelessness often pervades teachers who don't know how to reach them or get them to grasp what has to be taught. You are on point. And can I tell you, there's also a sense of hopelessness for some teachers when a child had a little cousin, she's she's beautiful and talented. And I recall that the teacher was so annoyed with her. Sometimes when she questioned her, she was only six years old. And she she lived in a naughty corner because she was constantly questioned in some things the teacher said and done. And one day the teacher said to her, which college did you go with? Which college was teacher's college you went to? Yeah. So she lived in a naughty corner because she had too many questions. And she disagreed with things sometimes. And I have worked with other gifted and talented children who frustrate teachers so much because they have their needs are not being met. Yes. And so it can go either way, but you are correct. Where does functional literacy fit in in the order of things? Functional literacy fits in all the way down at the primary level. By grade six, you really should leave grade six at minimum functionally literate to go into secondary to add value to that. But some children don't leave primary functionally literate. So we have to continue the journey in the secondary school by recognizing that whatever the challenge was back in the days when you were in primary, we're not blaming now, we're looking at because maybe your attendance was so poor. Maybe you had health issues. Maybe you were you have emotional and behavioral problems. Maybe you were just so. Challenge in a particular school that did not care enough. We have those to ensure that everybody leaves in a particular condition. And because checks and balances are not necessarily at their best throughout the region, a school could sit for year upon year upon year upon year, producing children who may not be functional literate, who are having challenges. And we can simply say it's a family thing or it's a community thing, whatever it is that we're blaming, we are supposed to intervene and then sure that more of our children are getting to that place. Because if you leave secondary functionally literate, you will be able to access training and development and job readiness skills. So extremely important in the scheme of things. But it begins at primary and one can go back to say early childhood, generally speaking, any other questions, concerns, issues? OK, Kathy, over to you. Oh, Doctor, someone has a hand up. Lucas Harrow. OK, go ahead. Yes, good evening. Good evening. As a minister with a statement as in some schools don't care, it's not that they do not care, it's that they do not have the resources to reach the special needs students. And even in classrooms now, you might have different learners, but you don't have the resources. You just have the basics to reach that student and it does not. You cannot meet every student need because of the resources available. How do you get out of the pocket? I take your point. It's a valid point. But what do we do when we are in those situations? Do we sit and decide that? Wow, we're not getting the resources that we need. And we have children with X, Y and Z needs. How do we collaborate? How do we reach out to say, OK, we are a school that we have some challenges. We need help. For example, in Jamaica, where I am from, we have what is called a national inspectorate. So they come to our schools and they inspect what is happening. And they will say based on these findings, the school needs a lot of help. And they're struggling and some of them have even been labeled failing schools. Then what are the things that are necessary now for the ministry to say, OK, I've identified your needs. How do we work together to fix some of these challenges? Yes. How do we ensure that we have more people, more persons within that school environment, with that within that community environment that are working towards turning that kind of. Ethos around and helping us to make the school more successful. But yes, there are those situations. And there are sometimes when we sit for in that situation for way too long. Change never comes. And so what happens is that parents recognize this and will spend money to send their children miles away to a school that they believe will provide the kind of education that they want for their child. That should not happen. We have to work together to turn that around. Then. Thank you for that contribution. Miss, I also have another point. Why don't why isn't there a reevaluation of the universal secondary education? Because why isn't there a reevaluation of second universal secondary education? I am not so sure, but it should be an ongoing evaluation, ongoing monitoring to ensure that the objectives of universal secondary education are being met. I would leave that question for those of us here who work directly with the education system in St. Lucia. So if anyone here wants to tackle that question, go right ahead. But it requires that we go through to ensure that the goals are being met. And if they are not being met, why? What are the challenges that we face? Oh, Joan, if I may interject, as you rightfully mentioned, this is a continuous. Well, there has been a continuous review of this of the universal secondary education. And with as a result of this continuous review of USE, the mechanisms or mechanisms are continuously being put in place by the Ministry of Education in response to the recognized limitations of this initiative and one such. Remedy or one of the mechanisms being put in place would be this draft special education needs policy because with USE, you do have a wider cross section of students or a wider range of ability in the regular mainstream classroom. And so it necessitates sound policy and guidance to teachers and or educators and principals who are the leaders of the system as to how you can best or how we best support learners within this mixed ability classroom setting or school setting. So much is being done. It may not be. Implemented as quickly or to the satisfaction of persons based on the needs of the children across the system. But there is a continuous review and amendments are being made as the years go by. Thank you for that. I'm looking at two other comments in the chat. The teachers, I don't know who this is, but it's a Samsung user. The teachers are frustrated with the system because they do not have the resources, the principals are tired and angry, and the students can feel the energy and that too can affect their learning. Absolutely correct. So when we get to that point of frustration, we need to get the level of support. We don't just throw up our hands. We don't transfer to the children so that they know that we too are frustrated and the principals are, as you say, tired and angry. I'm sure there are some that are not really angry, but there may be those who figure that they're not getting enough support and have become angry. But we must, as Caribbean people, we need to sit at the table and talk about what are the things that are making us angry, tired, frustrated and so on. And try with that take with collaboration to get things going so we don't feel that level of frustration and get the children and the parents involved in all of this. Secondly, when a child comes to school seeing the principal always angry, not approachable, that can scare the child. Of course it can. It can scare the parents. It can scare the teachers, the other members of staff and so on. So we need to manage our anger in a way that there are positive outcomes and you're given a job to do. So that job, if there are barriers in your way, you must be able to sit. You have an association, too. You must be able to sit at the table and discuss some of these challenges. And what I find, too, with some principals, there are some schools that are getting it right for whatever reason. And there are some schools that are having challenges. We as educators don't share enough. We don't talk enough. We don't look at some of the the things that are being implemented in initiatives in other schools that may very well work in ours if we try it also. We sometimes are bogged down by all the negative things around us that we don't necessarily see how we can come out of this kind of existence. So I'm encouraging those of us here who may be feeling angry, who may be frustrated and so on, to start thinking about how you can contribute to make things better and support the initiatives on. I know the Education Act is being reviewed. There are other initiatives on the ground. There is this so we really, really need to want to get things going. Thank you for those comments. And I would like to invite Kathy to go ahead, right? Thank you so much, Joan. You'd have to can we go back, please, Dionne? Have we done infrastructural? OK, thanks so much. So we continue here looking at the areas of focus, intended areas of focus of the policy. And one such area is that of infrastructural provisions and the support mechanisms. So from that area of consideration or area of focus, the main policy goal is that the government of St. Nusha, through the Department of Education, will establish structures and systems to provide reasonable accommodations in the form of adaptations, resources and support to optimize learning opportunities and outcomes for learners with send in an inclusive environment. So in order for those in order for there to be reasonable accommodations, what are those structures and systems? What are those considerations? So, for instance, we are recommending or the policy rather recommends that there be a focus on accessible classrooms and accessible buildings. And when you speak of accessible classrooms and buildings, what exactly do you mean? What exactly should be the focus here? So, for instance, that would take into account if if you're going to make or if the intention is to make a building or a classroom accessible, what aspects of that building will be will be the focus for that sort of transformation? Once that is decided upon, considerations such as the inclusion of ramps so that those learners with physical disabilities would be catered for. So apart from ramps, the provision of handrails, the widening of doorways for those learners who need winter access. That even includes accessible toilets, accessible toilet facilities. OK. Estimates for all of those modifications. So all of those together would be considered in order to make buildings and classrooms more accessible. When we speak of the visual support systems, we're looking at visual and auditory support systems that the focus here would be on ensuring, for instance, that learners who have visual impairments are catered for. So, for instance, that would happen through adaptations, such as including braille signage, perhaps changing the internal lighting that that is in certain schools. Just so you those those needs, those visual and auditory needs of learners are, in fact, taken care of. We also speak of accessible learning materials. So, for sure, if if a child needs, if a child has to be provided, I'll go to adaptive adaptive technologies first. If when we speak of adaptive technologies, we're looking at those forms, those technologies that will facilitate, for instance, text to speech translations or movement from text to speech, those technologies that will allow learners to take notes or facilitate note taking those technologies or tools that will allow for writing. OK, so if if there is a focus on the use of adaptive technologies or the provision of adaptive technologies, then certainly the physical materials that go that would facilitate access to those adaptive technologies would also have to be provided for learners. And we are looking at again, making those accessible. Remember that the focus is on ensuring that the goals of instruction are met, that the learner succeeds, that a learner being identified as a send learner does not mean that that that that learner shouldn't succeed. As a matter of fact, the point of the identification is to ensure that the learner succeeds and for that to happen, the policy will recommend that there needs to be accessible learning materials at all times for all learners. Another consideration is that of inclusive playgrounds. Again, looking at infrastructural support. It is important for learners not only to benefit from the academic aspect of schooling, it is not only important for learners to to to be able to sit exams and to pass and to get requisite qualifications, but we're looking at the social aspect of going through the school system. And if we are our aim is to develop, you know, the whole being that the entire person, the ideal inclusion citizen and by extension, the ideal Caribbean citizen, then all aspects of developing that ideal citizen need to be catered to. So for sure, the the social development of the learners are important. So there shouldn't be the policy would would encourage the the access, the fact that all of the learners, no matter what their their needs, would have access to those playgrounds. When we speak of a multiple means of communication, of course, that also has to be a consideration, so specifically in special schools, for example, we're looking at the provision of alternative scripts, signage or sign language improving the acoustics, especially for hearing impaired learners, ensuring that, you know, the learning environment is one that is conducive to the attainment of the learning goals and learning objectives. Do you have any comments or questions? Yes, Mr. Harrow. Yes, Miss. From what I've been hearing, most of the disabilities spoken about would be physical disabilities and provision for them. Physical disabilities would make up like one percent of this well, this differently able students. But realistically speaking, when we look at students with ADHD, the learning disabilities, they are more of these students and less avenues to reach them than those with the physical disabilities like wheelchair written students and blind or deaf students on a whole. So it's not that I do not agree with the changes that that have to be made to the schools to allow them to allow the inclusion of these students. But we have to look at the broader picture of those students with the non physical learning disabilities and how best we can reach these students. That's my opinion. OK, thank you so much for that contribution, Mr. Harrow. I believe that Dion would have touched earlier on on the the range of of of learners that would that this policy covers. Dion, would you care to comment? And certainly covering all all of the students that would have been classified as send learners, certainly all of their needs would be catered to under the new in the preview of the policy. So whether the learner is labelled as autistic or otherwise, especially when you speak of accessible learning materials and adaptive technologies, their needs would also be taken into consideration. Do you want to join? OK, I think I want to ask first if this question is in relation to this single slide or to the entire presentation. I'm trying to get a sense of where his understanding is if that is question relates to the infrastructural support, the infrastructural provisions and support, or it relates to the presentation up to this point. Miss, my thinking is we're looking at the physical infrastructural support for students, but it's not all schools that have differently able students in them, physically able students in them. But all schools, for sure, have students with learning disabilities. That's where my thinking is coming from. OK, well, if you notice that this is this component is only one aspect. We've already spoken about the different types of placements, the different types of curriculum adaptations and modifications required for children who may have some kind of learning difficulty or some in the classroom, whether that could be stemming from something in their living conditions or it's an intellectual problem that they're within the policy. This being only a component of the policy addresses all the entire spectrum of children from those who are profoundly disabled to those who are gifted and talented. So you'll notice that we speak to S E and the special education needs and disability to make a distinction between disabilities and special education needs. So it's important that we understand that there is a spectrum of children and their children who have mobility issues, their children who have visual and auditory impairments that accessible learning materials are available to those children also who have intellectual challenges as well as those children who also have visual impairment. So the sort of technology that is now available is not singular to those children who only have mobility issues. It's important that we understand that we have to provide the facilities for children with mobility issues for children who are all arranged, all forms of special needs, all forms of disabilities are covered under the policy. And so within the strategic actions that are listed on all the other areas are also ways to address the issues of those children. A big part of what needs to happen to those children who are, for example, in our schools who are underperforming really need, you know, sometimes pull out one to one support, but might not need adaptive technology, they need support in school and to support them to help them to move from one stage to the next. And so the idea is to be inclusive in the approach and, you know, not to focus on any single area by itself, but the gamut of the 14 categories of disabilities and all the areas of special education, special needs, sorry, that can arise. Support mechanisms also speak to the group that you are concerned about, those who may have a learning disability, because within that classroom setting there are things, there are learning materials that may be needed to differentiate so that they are able to maximize their potential. The use of technology is very important in teaching children to read and so on. So it's not just speaking to those who may have a physical challenge. Infrastructural provisions could also be smart boards, white boards, some teachers are still struggling with chalk and talk. I hope not in St. Lucia, but it speaks to the low tech all the way up to the height that would meet the needs of all learners. Oh, Joan, if I may interject, would it be possible to return to the slide which focused on dealing with the students who may have cognitive disabilities so he can probably relate to it and see the difference. And then we can refer to the infrastructural provisions vis-à-vis that which you had originally for students with cognitive, yes, or hidden disabilities. Yes, I think the point that Joan is also getting at that we would like people to understand as well is that the infrastructural support and mechanism does not simply focus on a single area of disability. It's the technology and the kinds of methods infrastructure we're talking about is to ensure that all children, regardless of what category they fall in, we are evaluating what sort of adaptive technology they need, what sort of assistance they need in the classroom in order to help them to engage. So it may be that children who are visually impaired need a special lighting in the classroom. If you might have a classroom that needs that. But as Joan said, you might need an interactive whiteboard in a classroom for children who have other kinds of who fall in a different category, who might simply be a particular kind of learner and need this particular technology to work with them. So the infrastructure and support is for all children, regardless, the point is to be able to evaluate where the children are and identify what technology, what infrastructure, what mechanism they'll need to support them. So it has to be contextualized in that sense. Agreed. I hope we did have there is some clarity for the gentleman. Thank you, ladies. There's another question here from the hands. I know we're running down to seven thirty, but there's another question here from his hands. I sometimes think we pay lip service to special education in a world where children are being diagnosed specifically exposure to ongoing stroke in service training, I believe is lacking at this time. We do agree and that was an important finding from the the consultations, Kathy. And that that that comment, which was just made here, is going to be dealt with in terms of the next area of focus of the policy. So additionally, the policy will focus on human resource provisions. OK, and the main policy goal to a company or going along with that area of focus is that the government of St. Lucia will undertake appropriate measures to improve the quantity and the quality of teachers, educational leaders, teacher educators and the specialists who support school communities in implementing inclusive education. So if if there is to be an improvement in quantity and quality of all of those individuals who are essentially, you know, expected to implement, right, as almost like the gatekeepers there, there are the kind of first faces of the of the individuals implementing inclusive special and inclusive education. What exactly is this policy speaking to in order for that to happen? So, for instance, the policy is is making this really significant recommendation about the establishment of the multidisciplinary assessment team and its composition. So in order, again, for there to be quantity and quality of persons who support the implementation of. So, for instance, that multidisciplinary assessment team, and it was it was mentioned a little earlier, should have, for instance, special educator, a special educator on board, the general teacher, education teachers, clinical or school psychologist, a speech or language pathologist, an occupational therapist, physical therapist, school counselor, OK, special education coordinator, behavior specialist, school nurse, of course, parent representatives, all in an effort to ensure that there is quality support being offered to send learners. In addition to a focus or a consideration of the composition of the multidisciplinary assessment team, the policy recommendation is that there be qualified teaching staff or a focus be placed on the provision of qualified teaching staff to include those individuals with disabilities in both inclusive or, you know, and special education, special schools. So both in the mainstream school and in the special schools. And of course, going back to the point that was just made, the need for there is this need for ongoing professional development. There is this need for the retooling and reskilling of teachers who may have already been trained, yes, and may have had access to the one or two special education courses, but still believe that they need they need support. They they need to be able to function optimally. They need to be able to function effectively within the inclusive environment. So certainly whether that that training is like short term training, yes, or whether it is training that equips or speaks to what the minimum qualification of a teacher who is supposed to be a special education teacher, what those minimum qualifications should be and whether that minimum qualification should in fact be a bachelor's degree in special education. So certainly there will be a heavy, heavy focus on ongoing professional development. Certainly a focus has to be on the send unit and ensuring that it is staffed with the required personnel again, so that the the implementation of inclusive education can really be successful. So a recommendation is that the unit be staffed with qualified education, special education, education officers, persons qualified in that area. Now I spoke of ongoing professional development. So that develop that professional development can focus on in service teachers and, of course, pre-service teachers who may coming very new into the system need that sort of support in terms of how they are to function in an inclusive classroom. But if you are to train those individuals and to prepare them to build their capacity, certainly there has to be a focus on the trainers of those individuals. So the recommendation is that teacher educators themselves should be qualified in to prepare in service teachers for inclusive classrooms. OK, so that so the focus is not only on retooling and the capacity building of in service and pre-service individuals, but on the trainers themselves. OK, another area of focus would have to be on school leaders and principals. If inclusive education has to be implemented at the school level, it has to be part of this plan or strategic plan for the entire school. So certainly a school leaders and maybe curriculum officers also would have to be trained on how to manage the implementation of inclusive education as part of perhaps a wider change management approach to developing and overseeing instruction at their various schools. Are there any questions or comments? Oh, I can see the chat has lit up. I'm just going through. OK, the next too much. Oh, there's a comment here. Too much preference at some schools. Some teachers pay attention to only kids who perform. Those who are slow, they don't get the attention that they need. And of course, certainly we know that that is unacceptable in the in the instances where it does happen. The focus is on inclusion. The focus is on no child being left behind. Yes, the focus is on ensuring or the focus should be on ensuring that every single learner benefits from instruction and that every single learner's needs are in fact met. I'm not seeing another. We need more speech therapists, especially one at Super. Yes, you're quite right. You have a raised hand, but it says Samsung SM. I'm not sure who that person is. OK, I just want to, from a parent's point of view, right? All we have is inclusion. It's inclusion, inclusion, inclusion, inclusion. Is there inclusion at special education school or would you consider special education school has inclusion? Please repeat. Yeah. OK, I'm asking, do you all think that there is inclusion in special education schools or should inclusion be at special education schools? OK, typically special education schools have similar kinds of children. So, for example, there may be a special education school for those children with hearing impairment and need sign language and all of that, although the movement will be to move them into general education if there are no other special education needs, right? But typically, so you may have a school for children who are blind, children who are intellectually challenged. The inclusiveness of that particular school is going to be limited by the fact that we are not advocating that children without special education needs should be moved into a special ed school. The special ed school is going to still exist to take care of the needs of those children who must be there based on their diagnosis and their presenting problems. It is hoped that the vast majority of children will be placed in inclusive settings in a general education schools, but the special needs schools still must exist for those children who may have to be transitioned via that route or may actually have to continue their program until those secondary settings and so on for various reasons. So it's not really an inclusive school in that it caters to the needs of all learners. It is special by the virtue of the fact that it is offering a specialized program for a group of children who at this point in time, based on their diagnosis, have to be in a special school. I see here where would be important to differentiate between SCN and SME. Oftentimes, you see them use their interchangeable, but special education needs and special needs education. Let's begin with special needs education. It speaks more to what you are going to do to educate children with special needs. The type of education that they're going to be getting versus special education needs speak more to what are your needs? What is your diagnosis? What is your challenge while you are considered special education? What are your needs? What is the nature and need? What are the nature? I'm sorry. What is the nature and what are your needs based on that nature for special education? So one is speaking more to the education programs to be provided for special special needs education for those children who have special needs. And then SCN speaks more to what is your diagnosis? What is your challenge? What is what is happening to you while you need to be classified as special education needs like the gifted and talented. Yeah, the gifted and talented would need SNE. I hope I'm just trying to make it as simple as possible. But sometimes you see them used interchangeably, but there's a thin line between what they mean, also providing short courses for parents in order to be able to deal with their child, also educating St. Lucia, maybe some short ads on television. Correct. This is where a stakeholder when my colleagues spoke about stakeholder involvement, it's speaking a lot to public education. And that has to be very targeted, ongoing and so on. And similarly, parents have to get involved in training courses because they too must understand the nature and needs of their child. Yes. Thanks, John. Dionne, next slide, please. OK, so the final consideration is that of stakeholder involvement. Going along with stakeholder involvement, the general policy goal is that the Department of Education will establish a framework that will identify stakeholders and the role they will play and outline the strategies to engage them and to support the implementation of special and inclusive education. In terms of those stakeholders, clearly a critical stakeholder would be the parents and guardians, and that that's kind of a link to the last comment that that that was just made there. When when you when we look at parents and guardians and the roles that they role their role in the whole implementation of special and inclusive education, we're looking at getting parents to understand their role in terms of the process of referral, their role in terms of the assessment, when their children or wards are being assessed, when interventions are being planned for their children or wards, when their children or wards are being placed. OK, and any other, you know. Decision that has to be made regarding the welfare of children or wards. So, for instance, there in getting parents to understand their roles, certainly there would need to be that those sort of short training opportunities or workshops for parents so that that sort of sensitization is is ensured. OK, apart from parents and guardians, you know, understanding their roles, certainly another key stakeholder here or group of stakeholders would be the ministries of education, health and social welfare and, of course, gender justice or any other ministry that deals with the welfare of children dealing with the welfare of youngsters who would have special education needs or need to be considered in that regard. These roles would clearly would have to be clearly defined, clearly mapped out so that there's this synergy that Dr. Jones spoke about earlier on this sort of collaboration between those those entities all in an effort to ensure that the learners receive the best care that will help them attain their educational goals. In addition to the ministries of education, certainly international organizations and non-profit and non-governmental organizations would have to understand what their roles are. So they would need to be that sort of sense, general sensitization, awareness, campaigns just to get those groups to understand their role in terms of their social responsibility and how they can contribute to words, how they can support the implementation of special and inclusive education. When you look at those organizations also, perhaps some of them may be donor agencies. And now again, you look at what a role or how can those agencies contribute toward the successful implementation of special and inclusive education? So the policy is speaking to really mapping out what their specific functions would in fact be. OK, we were looking at how those organizations also could support the ongoing collection of relevant data that would support the implementation of inclusive and special education. And perhaps the whole monitoring of the system. OK, so that whatever decisions are made continue to be data driven and grounded in in research and in what what what the data says. Of course, the contribution of the school and home communities cannot be underscored enough, OK, because of the this this the sender learner has to function within a school and a home, a community environment. So clearly, the policy will have to be very, very specific in terms of what is the role of the school and what is the role of the general community from which that child hails. And we remember that the the the aim or the whole point of, you know, identifying all of these stakeholders is to ensure that the appropriate support mechanisms are in fact in place if that each stakeholder understands its role so that they can support and support the successful implementation of special and inclusive education. So are there any comments or questions on stakeholder involvement? Yes, I was thinking the key factor that needs to be added would be to have discussions with the actual children themselves in the classroom. Those who are not coming on the on the umbrella or send them having a special need. Yes, so what we do want is if our child or whoever's diagnosed with a condition when they're just placed in a classroom, that could be quite daunting for them. So it's important that we prepare the rest of the classroom to ensure that the child who's been put in the middle of everything is not being victimized or stigma stigmatized, you know, in a way that there's something wrong with them, you understand? So we also have to make sure that the actual classroom, apart from parents being educated, apart from parents being trained, the classroom, you know, the kids in the classroom also have to be prepared for that. They have to know how to be to work with the person who needs the extra support as well. Certainly, certainly, very, very valid point there. And of course, that would form part of the various sensitization campaigns and programs that would have to would have to occur, because certainly also when you speak of the school and the community from which the the the send learners have to function, that is also a consideration. How do you get the students themselves or the other learners themselves to appreciate what is happening, to appreciate that they too are important stakeholders in the process of making the environment as inclusive as possible for their their peers to succeed? So thank you so much for that, Miss. I'd like to add thank you for that, that in coming up with this policy, we had among the 35 consultations that we had at meetings, we had students of various ages and abilities. So we had students with special needs contributing children who are in general education classroom. And I must say that one of the things just doing this throughout the region, one of the things that is so, you know, heartening and really making us feel good about what we do is that the best supporters of inclusion that we have found are children, the children who are in general education classes. We have surveyed several of them, quite a few, and they are always so willing and their their plan is that their peers must be educated with them and they speak when we had them online and they express themselves. It was just amazing the way in which they thought that they had much to share and to learn from the others and they wanted them educated with them rather than segregated. That was a common cry among students at various levels. We had primary children and we had secondary children expressing their views. And it was really, really heartwarming to see and to listen to how they led the way when it comes to inclusion. So we definitely have to it has to be a part of the plan to prepare them for receiving their peers who have any sort of special education needs and disabilities. Thanks, Joan. There are some other comments here in the chat. There was a question is the census like sensitization and awareness of parents and the general population going to be addressed, certainly that is the intention here as, you know, the goal is to reach all stakeholders involved. There are training sessions of parents and caregivers of children with special needs. Is there any training for parents with children with disabilities but that are no longer in a school setting? Joan, I'll let you speak to that one. OK, no longer in a school setting. That's a big part of the plan for stakeholders such as parents because parents will have to know what the law says. They have the right to appeal a decision how far they can take it. What do they need to know in order to appeal or to support so parents, the sensitization for parents and the general population is a big part of the plan and the training session for parents. I know currently they there that is that is ongoing, but it has to be ramped up as you have more children entering the system. We have to have great, parental support systems in place for them to be trained for them to understand what it is that they should be doing at home to support this child. What is it that they should be doing even as advocates to ensure that the system is keeping it real and they're getting the services and resources necessary for their child's potential to be maximized? So caregivers trained no longer. But what are parents with disabilities, with children with disabilities, but that are no longer in a school setting? So here we're I would love for someone from the Department of Education to address that because we spoke about post-secondary. So the school setting goes up to secondary. So post-secondary would be training, job readiness, TV programs, that kind of thing. So after secondary, we did have one of our slides that spoke to the fact that organizational structures must be in place to deal with post-secondary opportunities for youngsters who need that. Yes. So that's definitely a part of the plan. Why not use the money to upgrade the existing special education schools and make them up to standards so they do not have to feel that they're at the bottom or neglected? If we do, if we spend all the money that we have to upgrade existing special education schools, there is a challenge there in that if everything is in place there and nothing goes towards the inclusive education, St. Lucia, as you know, we have signed on to all kinds of documents that speak to the fact that we are going to go the route of inclusion. There is much to gain from inclusion. And so we have to spend and spread it around so that the schools become inclusive, special ed schools are better able to deliver on those children who are placed there, but to say that we they are not at the bottom or neglected. Some primary schools and some secondary schools may feel that very same way too. So the idea is to uplift and to upgrade all schools, whether you're a special school, a general education schools, there are similar concerns. So we had the special schools talking about their concerns and the general education school talking about their concerns in more ways than one. There were very similar concerns about human and physical resources, material resources, and so on. So it is about upgrading and uplifting all schools for all children, regardless of where they are placed. I'm happy that greater emphasis will be given up to stakeholder contributions. I especially like mention of the Social Welfare Department. I sincerely believe that students need a champion for their cause, especially where parents have failed through willful neglect. On point, Rosa Joseph says, if a child is not able to do physical education at secondary school due to a disability, will it affect the average of that child at the end of the term? And it should not. It should not because that's where adaptations and modifications are very important. And physical education goes way beyond just going on the field and doing movements and so on. And if you're in a wheelchair or if you are physical, you know that they still have to do movements, they still have to do certain things. Otherwise, they're going to find themselves in difficulty over time by sitting in a wheelchair all day. So their physical education program has to be modified to meet their needs. And there is also the theoretical aspect of physical education that's that's being tested. So. Yes, we have to modify, adapt and ensure that whatever it is that are the children are put in an environment that will best meet their needs. And when we're assessing, we take that into consideration also. Thank you. There's a hand. Someone has a contribution to make. Go ahead. I just see Samsung. So can we go ahead? OK, based on a question that was asked a while ago in the chat, right? Someone said about using the money to upgrade the schools and then so that the school or the children at the school might not feel neglected. It is a neglect that we parents feel for our children because our school structure is not like others. So we as parents or the children might feel neglected based on these kinds of things because we see greater awareness or attention is being paid to the normal functioning schools. But when you check, there's no attention given to the special education schools, because most times we parents will listen to the news or we watch the news. We read, we go on social media to see what's happening for special education schools and there's nothing so we as parents or our children feel neglected based on what they see and what they hear. So there is some form of neglect that happened into special education schools. That's just my thing. Well, ma'am, thank you so much for sharing that. You're being very frank about how you feel about that. I don't know if Joan or perhaps Miss Immanuel cares to comment. Well, the parents statement, I do not think it is something that can be disputed. It is an unfortunate truth, if I should say for better, for want of better expression. In the past and over the years, the sense sector has been marginalized. It is something the ministry has acknowledged and the ministry is now seeking to respond and to address this gap to various mechanisms, training, capacity development for teachers, supports for parents, parent training programs as well have been undertaken. Investments in procurement of resources, assistive devices and instructional resources for the send schools. We also have this policy that is being developed in order to really have things better streamlined and greater accountability within the system. And we have a range of other initiatives that are ongoing. So the ministry does recognize that there has been a gap. It is unfortunate. But the most important thing at this juncture, I believe, is certain steps are being taken to really respond to the parents, to respond to the students and the families impacted by special education needs. Of course, the process may appear to be a little slow. And I'm I'm sure that the Ministry of Education would definitely extend its apologies in this regard, but there is a considered effort to address the concerns and the frustrations of parents and families. There also has been construction designs for both the Nata school and the view for special education needs facility. In the future, there is consideration towards, of course, moving this into a construction phase. But we have formulated designs for those two schools. So a lot has been done and a lot will continue to be done by the Ministry of Education. But sorry, sorry to cut you short, right? I love the way that you say it, right? But it's like all talk and no action. That's what we parents feel, right? Because we see things. It's like we read energy as just like our children of the day, vibe through energy. We vibe through Ministry of Education's energy. This doesn't seem very good at what he does, not taking away from him. But I am a parent. I remember there was once I wanted to have a discussion with the education, the Minister of Education, just so we parents can have a dialogue with him. So he can, you know, give us insight or information as to what's going on for the special schools to this day. Nothing ever has happened. And I'm a firm believer sometimes, even if we write the letters to them as parents wanting to have a dialogue or discussion by the time they see the subtitle, they will throw it away. But I just love how you say it. It's very interesting how you say it. But it's all talk and no action. You just might take as a parent. But I respect that fully. I understand your sentiments. I can't your sentiments. I cannot at all walk in your shoes. So, of course, I do respect your position on that. I can say the minister definitely has been briefed on this policy. He is very much interested in providing and enhancing for learners of CEN across the system. He has expressed that level of commitment and by extension, the government of St. Lucia rest assured under the Education Quality Improvement Project. We have we are quite passionate about the CEN sector and we have gone above and beyond to try to put the necessary mechanisms in place and supports in place. And of course, as this project continues, we will continue our best to assist and to provide or to provide supports for parents and families of children with CEN. I do recognize that this process is quite long, quite tedious. And of course, it may cause some dissatisfaction or continued dissatisfaction. But we are responding and we do hope that in time that your concerns will have been remedied and you will, of course, be in a better place and be better and better able to care for your child with CEN. I've noted another comment. Well, yeah, in the chat. What is in place to help parents with a child with disabilities that is not in school for one reason or another, but is of age to be in school and more specifically, not over secondary school age. So what is in place to help the parent or parents to cope with the child and life with a child with disabilities? She continues, does the government help those persons to cope with them? Like, I guess, through training sessions? First of all, why is a child not in school? School, yeah. Child needs to be assessed and to be placed in an appropriate educational institution where the child's needs can be met. And if it is that there are some other social or financial or whatever the problem might be, a social worker needs to be deployed to investigate what is happening, the system must kick in, should kick in to identify why the child is still home, what are the needs of that child and how best that child can be assisted. So we do have children like that throughout the region who are not in school. Sometimes it's the same community that reports it or a parent after figuring that, well, I don't think my child fits in. Sometimes it's the remoteness of where the child is located and the family cannot see that they can take this child to any institution that is far away because of cost factors or what of you. But the important thing is to find out why that child is not in school and to quickly see how best the resources can be put together to ensure that that child is properly educated. Joan, is it feasible for Mr. Sages to provide some additional response? Oh, please. We need him every at the end of the session. So thank you for your answer. Mr. Sages, are you on to respond to this later question? I am on. Good evening, everybody. I have been listening. Thank you very much. Currently, there are provisions for children who are of school age who are not attending. In fact, the the existing Education Act says that it's a violation of the law for a child to be of school age and not accessing a recognized educational program. And it is for that reason that we have a school attendance officer whose job it is to find out what is going on to give to coordinate welfare assistance, if that is the reason for nonattendance or to facilitate bringing the parent before a magistrate. If the reason is just simply that the parent is is resisting and delinquent. The important thing to remember, though, I think is that what is new about this policy is that it it it essentially mandates a coordinated intervention for children in not just this situation, but every other situation involving special educational needs or disabilities, you would have heard that it was said that it is going to mandate that is stakeholder involvement. So the Ministry of Education, as it stands now, is mainly responsible for special educational needs. That is not a feasible way to operate because children with special educational needs and disabilities may have medical aspects of their of their need. There may be welfare aspects of their need. There may be law enforcement aspects of their needs. And all of these stakeholders need to have their their areas coordinated in the direction of the child so that they can be a kind of a 360 degree support structure that makes education successful for the individual. We have some components of that in existence right now, but we don't have a document that mandates the the the way that these services should be coordinated. And that is one of the things that we expect that the policy is going to contribute into our educational space. Thank you, Mr. Sergist. I'm Joan Dion and team, Miss Depardine. We do have one question online, which I would like to speak to was someone required some specification regarding the proposed location for the new Donata School. I am not a liberty, unfortunately, to discuss or to disclose details on this. This is still very much in a work in progress. And so in due course, where this is finalized, I would trust that the government of Central Asia would then have this available to the public over the Ministry of Education would have this available for public consumption. But at this point, there is still much finesse in going on. But the rest assured the designs are formulated as just a matter of finesse in things and getting this school constructed at some point. Thanks, Mr. Manuel. I see there's another comment in the chat. I believe it. Oh, it says what is in place for children who have reached an age to leave the special needs school, especially those who are not physically challenged? Mr. Sergist, would you care to chime in? Again, I may sound like a broken record, but this is one of the reasons why I'm excited about this policy, because as it currently stands, there is no documentation that gives guidance beyond the special school for children with special learners with special educational needs. We have no such a document. The one place that we have something written in black and white is the Education Act, and it speaks to the child who is in school or the individual who is in an institution. We are looking to the policy to give guidance, not just for the educational experience within an institution, but we also looking to the policy to give guidance towards transition beyond the special school. So wherever the child or the individual is expected to be moving on to, hopefully it will be a transition to work. There is guidance given in the policy requiring that there be transition officers and that process of going from school into the workplace be coordinated and guided. So we don't have it currently. We are looking to the policy to chart a way forward where that is concerned. Thank you so much, Mr. Sergist. Joan or Dion, do you have anything else to add? No, thank you. No, not really. And I think we're out of time. Yes. So I really want to thank everyone for joining us. Thank you for your openness and candidness and these insights that you've brought will certainly help us to rethink or to add to and make whatever modifications we need to ensure that the policy suits the current conditions and context in St. Lucia. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Sergist. Thank you, Miss Emanuel, for organizing this and to the education officers who have also assisted. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. JBTE team, the team from the Joint Board of Teacher Education in Jamaica. A lot of work has been accomplished by the firm. Excellent work and we really would like to commend the firm for the dedication, the commitment and, of course, the quality of the quality product that has been produced at this time. We, of course, look forward to the continued contributions of stakeholders in that with a view towards enhancing or furnishing this draft policy document, such that it is really to the satisfaction of the beneficiaries of the system or the general stakeholders within the education system. We thank you very much, participants, for availing yourselves this evening. We do recognize the time that we did call on this meeting, but we thank you very much for availing yourselves and for participating in this very, very important discussion. Again, we would like to restate the Ministry of Education is very much committed to enhancing provisions for students with special education needs and providing the relevant supports for those students and their families. And this draft policy is a very significant step in this direction. So without further ado, I would like to thank you once again. And Mr. Sages, is there anything else you wish to say before we close? No, not much. Just wanted to say thank you to everyone for being here. I am I am still in in in excitement mode about the policy and what we are looking for it to do for us in special education. As I said last night to the last night's group, I want everybody to know and understand that this is a big deal. There are many people who say this should happen and this should happen where special education is concerned referring to various aspects of what they think should be rules and regulations that are applicable in special education. This policy is the way to make that happen. And so even even with the discussion about universal secondary education, this is an important pillar that is going to help with the realization of the objective of universal secondary education. So as I said, I'm a big fan of the policy. I am working it everywhere I go and I'm looking forward with excitement to the wonderful things that will be accomplished for our learners with special education on these disabilities through this policy. Thank you so much, everybody. Thank you, Mr. Sages, and just to notify the public that the next steps for this phase would be the consultants would regroup, review all of the feedback received during all of the consultations this week. And of course, we're confessing this document. So it really is the satisfaction of stakeholders and really responds adequately to the needs of our special education needs sector. So thank you very much once again for indulging us. And should we, of course, require your discussions or your contributions at some point in the future, we do hope that you continue to avail yourselves. Thank you very much and do have a pleasant evening. Thank you, Joe, and on team. Thank you, thank you, Ms. Depparton. Thank you. Good evening. Good evening. Bye bye. Bye bye. Thank you. Good night, everybody.