 Welcome to ToffeeTV, I am joined by Rob Sawyer, the author of, let's go through them, Harry Cattrick, the Untold Story, T.G. Jones, the Prince of Centre Halves and the upcoming Blue Dragon, the story of Roy Veyron, which I didn't realise was such a prolific centre forward for Evan. It's amazing his stats, he's sixth highest golf scorer for Everton in all time, he's one of I think only a few have scored a hundred goals or more in the league, better than one or two goal average and he wasn't even a centre forward, he was a number 10, like the inside forward in Old Money, so Alec Young was a centre forward, so amazing stats that he had, so prolific and not just a golf scorer, he could do everything, he could tap in, 25 yards is just a great player. So he was involved in the early 60s at Everton, he came from Blackburn? That's right, so Johnny Carey was the Blackburn manager, took him there in the mid 50s, Everton missed out on him as a teenager, not the first time, and made his name at Rovers, but when Johnny Carey went over to Everton in 58, I think Roy got unsettled and he agitated for a move and in 1960 he moved across to Merseyside, I think he was one of the very first of those John Moores big money purchases that started to strumble in, the Merseyside Millionaires, absolutely. So you had people like Jimmy Gabriel, Tommy Ring, Roy, all arrived within a few weeks of each other in 1960, and then of course Alec Young a little bit later on that year. And he'd already played in the Whale Cup, I knew the 58 Whale Cup from Wales. That's right, he was gone to Sweden in 58, played in one of the matches there, got to the quarter-finals, so he was already an established player, one of the jewels in the crown at Rovers, they didn't want to lose him, but he made it difficult for them to keep him, and even in the days before agents, Roy knew how to work things, shall we say. So why do you think then he isn't one of these names that, as Evertonians, just trips off the tongue, because obviously you just meant he's Alec Young there, who for any Evertonian of any generation, they know who Alec Young is. Joe Royal obviously, he's still got connections with the club, then on to Bob Latchford Andy Gray, Graham Sharp, even like Duncan Fagus, and he hasn't got a gold scrim record anywhere near Roy Vain, but Evertonians know, I know he's a little bit closer to home, so he's still at the club, but what do you think it is, that's gone slightly missing, that we don't know Roy Vain on as much. That's a good question, I think it was his fortune, but also misfortunes played with Alec Young, because Alec was this sort of photogenic icon, the golden hair, the beautiful way he played, and that probably overshadowed Roy, but they were equals, they were greater than some of their parts. If you didn't have Roy and Alec together, we might not have won the league. So I think that was one misfortune, and he left after five years. If he stayed on a couple more years, maybe he'd have won the FA Cup, so maybe he just wasn't there quite long enough to cement himself in our long-term affections, and then afterwards he kind of just moved away from football, so he didn't see him popping back to good as unlike Dave Hickson and Brian LaBona people. Well, he played in America, didn't he, and South Africa? Yeah, when he was with Stoke, they had like this franchise, so that Stoke went over and represented Cleveland, they called himself Cleveland Stokers, so it was like renter team, so they did that for a summer. Stoke went everywhere, every summer, they were, you know, you talk about pre-season stores now, Stoke every year, Africa, Russia, America, but they were out there earning the money. So, yeah, he played there, he played in South Africa, and then right at the end he played non-league, great goal, you know, for a bit of pocket money, so yeah. Was he, which do you think he was a victim of, of Halicatrix? Does this, I mean, obviously I'm too young to, to, to watch Halicatrix teams, but there is this idea that he liked to break up teams, Alan Ball seemed to be a victim of that. Yeah. Obviously after the 69-70 lead, so do you think we've seen him as a victim of that? Yeah, I think Catric moved people along, if he thought that they were dipping, if he thought he could get good value for them, he would trade players on, whether that's, as you say, Alan Ball, Derek Temple, Roy himself, and he was, you know, two years after he won the league, he started to have knee problems, probably wasn't quite the same player, and whereas Harry Catric would maybe turn a blind eye to some of Roy's activities when he was at his best and three o'clock on a Saturday afternoon doing the stuff, when he wasn't doing that, maybe Harry decided that, you know, time to move him on. So absolutely, if you, if you weren't delivering, Harry would tell you. I, I read something about that, he didn't, he didn't necessarily look like a footballer, and he certainly didn't have the hands of a footballer. Yeah, Derek Temple said, I mean, Roy was famous for smoking, you speak to any former player, it's him and any of his clubs, two things they'll say, brilliant footballer, and what a smoker. I've seen photos, the only time you don't see Roy with a cigarette in his mouth or in his hands is when he's playing. Every other time, senior service fan. So he was a chain smoker, and as Derek Temple tells the story about how he'd have his little brillo pad, sort of trying to get off the, the sort of nicotine tail stains off his hands in the dressing room. Yeah, he didn't look like a footballer. I mean, he was sort of ten stone, dripping wet, not an ounce of fat on him, skinny little, but that was deceptive. He was, he was, he was tough. He was all muscle, what he had, and he was just so quick. That was it. I mean, I was trying to think what Everton play you might compare him to in our, in our sort of memory. There's a bit of linica about him, just that pace from a standing start. But whereas linica was a tapping merchant, I was saying before Roy, he could do it all, he could hit them from 25 yards, he could get in there, hit them from six yards, couldn't head the ball mind. That was one thing you never saw Roy doing. But apart from that, he could do everything and link up play, great play. Yeah, well, I'm going to say, I mean, he's in good company with someone like Cruyff for the cigarette. He was another one. You mentioned before as well about like not having an agent, obviously, but the picture I see, you know, he's, you know, he's there, he's got a nice flashy pair of puma on as well. That, that seemed a little bit unusual for the, for the time. It's just almost maybe five or six years ahead of the time to see a player. I mean, I don't know, obviously wall boots, but I don't think, don't seem to think to remember that many were branded. So was he that kind of player? Yeah, I think he had an eye for the eye how to make money. He wasn't deaf. He was a grammar school lad. You know, he wasn't your typical footballer, but, you know, pursued that career. So he was smart, you know, savvy and knew how to, knew how to make a few, few quid on the side, whether it's puma boot sponsorship or having to go on the dogs or the horses, you know, Roy was always on the lookout. So as you mentioned before, do you think the fact that he didn't come back to the club, that he hasn't been a familiar, oh, so he wasn't a familiar face around the club? Do you think that went against him? Because you, you are right in what you're saying. A lot of these people stay in the memory of Evertonians because they do, they do hang around the club. I mean, that's not the right phrase to use, but, you know, the likes of some like Joe Royal is obviously still a very familiar person in heaven. Derek Temple, still a very familiar person at heaven. Players have done a lot less than Roy Vane and are very familiar people at Everton because they just tend to hang around at heaven. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we'll get jobs with the club, you know, on the coaching staff, whatever. No, Roy, he just, he gave up football, worked in a family business back in Blackburn, probably only came back to Goodison once or twice, and undoubtedly, yeah, and of course he died in 1993. The cigarettes took their toll. So when we started to have the Hall of Fame dinners, he wasn't there. If he had been there, maybe things would have been different. People would have been able to, you know, get him up there and hear him talking and that would have been different. Yeah, because you find that, don't need to find that. Some Evertonians come, or former Evertonians come back and don't quite understand how they look that. I mean, the most recent one, I can remember is Paphana now who came back from South Africa himself. Yeah. And didn't understand how, how idolised he was by, by a lot of fans. And we, you know, there's a song obviously that sings at the Hall of the 85 team. And he's obviously part of, so we still sing his name at games. And he had no idea about that, which I found quite really strange. So do you think maybe? Yeah, he didn't, he didn't get to hear, hear what people thought of him. He just lived his life 50 miles away, sort of relatively quietly, didn't really get to see the fans. But the fans have spoken to the guys who were lucky enough to see him in the 60s. You know, they say he was, he was their hero, you know, Alec Young. Yeah. But Roy was his equal, you know, and it's just a shame that he wasn't there in those Hall of Fame nights, because he would have been brilliant. Yeah. So you've, you've already written the book called The Blue Dragon. The Blue Dragon, yeah. With Dr. David France. That's right. Yeah, David, we've been picking emails backwards and forwards across the Atlantic and he's in good form now. Once he gets going, there's no stopping him, we know this here. So it's, it's, it's getting, hopefully getting published through a kickstarter process. Yeah, so we're looking to publish with the Covertan who did my other books, but we're doing a kickstarter this time. So throughout July, we've got a campaign out there on kickstarter and if people want to support the project, they can go to kickstarter, just search for Blue Dragon or Roy Vernon, it will pop up. And there's all sorts of ways you can support it and get lots of bonus extras by doing that. So, and the idea is then we'll go to publish in autumn. So I, I had a look before, so anyone's unfamiliar with kickstarter. The best way to describe it is you're paying for the book before you get the book. So you're helping get the book published and you will get the book if you, that's right. But if it doesn't get published, you don't get the money taken off you. So if you want this book, buy it now and it's already, it'll get published. It's already being written and you'll get it. So all you're doing is you're just basically pre-buying the book. That's right. It's like a pre-order and just making sure it gets, gets to print that way. It sounds a really fascinating story. As I say, I'm always fascinated by these players because listen, we live in a generation that everything is there, you know, the minute everything gets linked with someone, you can just go to YouTube and watch highlights of others. I mean, you call them highlights and you can watch the ass run around the same player 13 times and he looks like a well-better clearly, but you can't, can you? It's all there now. Where is these players? There's no, there's no room. There's such a, so little unaware footage of Roy. So frustrating, I've been trawling YouTube in the internet and there's just a few flashes like there's one against Wolves in 1960 at Mollinio and he gets the ball in his own half, turns Billy Wright, goes past two of the Wolves to Panthers and then just sends this pass right down the middle to a young who just hits it first time. And it was just amazing to watch. You just wish there was more footage because it's for people to appreciate. Or you can just be like Pele and just tell everyone that every goal you scored, that wasn't on telly, it was absolutely amazing like he does. He scored a thousand points, yeah. No, but it's amazing. I'm sure that, I don't know if it's just Evan, but there seems to be a case, even like, even like 87, there's a TV strike and 85, there's a lot missing and I know for, there's been other projects out there where people have got to go to other football clubs and find if they've got any. So to go back to the 60s it must be even harder. So when we won the league in 63, Roy scored a hat-trick on the last day, you know, that was Roy, the man for the big occasion. Is there any footage of it? No. I mean, it's just hard to believe these days. The day you win the championship, Roy gets a hat-trick and all you've got is a few photos. It's frustrating, but hopefully the book brings it to life and I've been lucky that Roy's actually, when he retired, he actually wrote some notes. He was thinking of doing an autobiography and I managed to get a hold of those notes that he wrote, so it's fascinating getting his own view about what it was like. And that's really, I mean, it's something quite funny really because when James was writing, when he was writing Dave Hickson's book, when he was writing Dave Hickson's book and he had it all on audio, when he passed me some of the audio to try and use to put something together for him and just hearing Dave Hickson in his own, you know, with his own voice and coming through with that emotion, saying the things, I mean, you know, it puts a completely different slant on all that emotion, so I'm sure if this is the same, having those words for you must be a real help to push your foot. Because then you're almost using his voice then, aren't you? Exactly. He brings the person to life. Yeah, absolutely. And he was, he was a, he was a clever guy, a rebel, you know, brilliant character that I love to have met him. Yeah. So, I mean, while you're here as well, you wrote Harry Katrach, the untold story for Football Grades. He's another one, isn't he? That time hasn't been good too. And for one of the reasons was because he didn't like the media. Yeah, he was very wary of the media, distrustful, and that was another reason we didn't have much in the way of television footage. He wasn't keen on the cameras even coming to Goodison. And the other problem was, of course, there was a certain Bill Shemfield across the road. Although he did end up coming to Belfield. He did live across the way from Belfield. Yeah. So, yeah, that was, you know, in the way it was partly Harry's own fault, but it is unfortunate because what he achieved, not just winning the league twice in the Cup, but, I mean, people who saw that, that team in 69, 70. And in fact, the last few years of the 60s, they say that's the best ever since they've seen, just, you know, the Holy Trinity, Joe Royal. Well, I mean, we've just seen the statue, obviously, put for the last game of the season. So it's something that is, I mean, at least that is something that is, is still very familiar to a lot of, it's a lot of Evertonians, whether they'd be young or old, a lot of them do know what the Holy Trinity looks like. Yeah. Or at least, you know, for kids season. So who's that dad? And then the Haddleman will tell them. And I hope that if we, when we move down to Brownlee more, that we get some statues and Roy Vernon as a championship winning captain, Brownlebone, but also, you know, Harry Capric along with Howard Kendall, those should be the statues we have out there. And the other book you've done is T.G. Jones, the Prince of St. Arthur, another Welshman. Yeah, it's a bit of a theme going on there. In fact, he was doing the T.G. Jones book, that got me on to Roy. He was talking to some old Evertonians who were Welsh as well. They were saying, well, when you've done that, how about Roy Vernon? And fully enough, I'd started doing a bit of research and then I went to the Dixie's a couple of years ago and who was awarded the Everton jams. It was Roy and I just thought, right, that's the signal I'll do that. But yeah, T.G. Jones. I know another player who isn't talked about enough these days, but an absolutely fantastic centre half who was unfortunate because we had the second World War. Everton's habit of winning, winning a league title and then sort of World War happening. You wonder about a curse. Do you know when you describe to people and you say to them that Everton or the most unluckiest club ever in history of football ever, I mean, look at you and they go, why? And you go, well, you know, there's two World Wars. We were the league title. I mean, why, why we haven't been given the title for every year is still being on me. We should have 18 titles. If it's been someone else quite close, they've got them. Yeah, we're definitely the most unluckiest club ever. So I mean, is there any particular reason why you like looking back at the 60s? It's just a golden year. There's so much material in there, isn't it? And it's just bringing it because some of it hasn't maybe got the attention it deserves. It's great to dig in there and bring it to the wider attention. And Harry and now Roy, I think, are two people whose tails are worth telling. Brilliant. So where can we find this Kickstarter then? Just go and Google Kickstarter Roy Vernon or Blue Dragon or go to the Kickstarter website and tap in Blue Dragon or Roy Vernon. You'll find it easily enough and please just get involved. And there's loads of packages. There's like the basic package, which is like a book. And then there's more gifts. And there's even there's even and this one caught my eye. There's even a signed Dixie Dean picture. Yeah, it's a Dixie Dean signature. Yeah, you've done well there James. You have to get that to be honest. So there's lots of options to choose from, from the basic of a book to posters and even if you're not even an Everton fan, there's stuff for Blackbeam fans and world fans. Yeah. So you can get like collections of books, various packages from like you say, just like an e-book version all the way to bells and whistles. Just got to check with you. You haven't had the chippy on and go to some road. Have you? Trying to trade? No way it's been in touch yet. All right, just wanted to double check that. So if you want to get the book and help it come out, get on there. We'll put all the links in the description as well. Big thanks for Rob for coming in to talk about Roy Vernon and Highcatcher and T.G. Jones. Thanks for watching Sofie TV. We'll see you later.