 for starting us off in such a wonderful way to be gathered here this evening on unceded territory of the Mi'kmaq people. My name is Pam Williams. I'm Chief Judge of the Family and Provincial Courts of Nova Scotia and co-chair of the Council of Parties who are commissioners for the restorative inquiry for the Nova Scotia home for colored children. Thank you Pam. I guess we're gonna go up and down. My name is Tony Smith. I'm co-chair of Voices, victim of institutional child exploitation society and it's an organization that is supporting and advocated on behalf of the former residents and Nova Scotia home for colored children and I am also co-chair of the Council of Parties. I'd like to thank you all this evening for gathering with us with this restorative inquiry event. It is important for us to get together to reflect on the significance of the work that we have done in the last three years, three and a half years, and to make our connections and talk and talk to people with the similar goals that we have in addressing systemic discrimination institutional racism and bringing together partners in the community in government to collaborate collective responsibility in working for justice to be the central part of the RI. It is the RI's work to do in a different way. We have been grateful to be connected with this work close to a community and who are leaders and key in this different way forward. Our partners in hosting this event tonight are very important leaders within the community. There's nine or two men up and I move but most importantly the main partners that we have in this inquiry are the former residents and I just want to commend them that are here today and those who are not. I'd like to take this opportunity to bring Mr. Ken Feltz up to give some words of encouragement about nine or two men up but also Ken was one of the partners on the design team to come up the terms of reference. Good evening everybody. Oh my lord. Good evening everybody. Good evening. I thought everybody left. What a day what a day. I bring greetings from man up and I wanted to acknowledge that we're on seated McMaw territory. I also want to acknowledge the elders our people of African ancestry come before us. I'm bringing greetings on behalf of the nine or two men up. We started with Peter Campbell and Marcus James. I am not Marcus James. They put together a fantastic program for us because they saw all the violence that was taking place with our young men in our community. That happened in 2016. So with that they decided to go forward and bring over a hundred black men together and since that time we've fostered many many events all that we have taken care of ourselves. We've been asked for donations from anybody else or any other organizations. So man up has four pillars mental health justice education and community and our success is because of our youth our young men who are out there with us and you've seen some of the things that happen today which we also foster. With that said I'm going to call on a Dina to come forward and sing the black national anthem. Lift every voice and sing till earth and heaven rings rings with the harmonies of liberty. Let our rejoicing rise high as the listening skies. Let it resound loud as the rolling seas. Sing a song of the faith that the dark past has taught us. Sing a song full of the hope that the present has brought. Facing the rising sun of our new day. Be gone. Let us march on till victory is won. God of our weary. God of our silent tears. Thou who has brought us thus far. Thou who has by thy might led us into the light. Keep us forever in the past. We pray. Lest our feet stray from the places our God where we met thee. Lest our drunk with the wine of the world we forget thee. Shadowed beneath thy hand may we forever stand. True to our God. True to our native land. So much for that. It was lovely. So powerful. So this is an important evening in the work of the restorative inquiry. We are coming to the end of our mandate and we are working on our final report. But while we're doing all that there's lots of planning and action that is underway in relation to our three central issues that we've identified during the work. And those three central issues are as follows. Number one, responding to institutional abuses and failures. Secondly, responding to the experiences of children and youth in care. And thirdly, understanding impacts of systemic racism. So the focus of our work has been to understand the history, the experience and the impact of the Nova Scotia home for colored children as it relates to systemic racism and its impacts. This public inquiry, as many of you would know, has worked in a different way. We've been committed to working in a restorative way. The focus has not been on looking back in order to lay blame for what has occurred, but rather the focus is to bring those people together. Those who are most affected and those who are responsible in seeking to understand what matters most of both the past in order to create a better future together. It really has been an incredible journey during the three phases of our work. The first phase was really relationship building. We spent a lot of time with various community and government and agencies to get a sense of who it is that needed to be brought into the conversations. And then the second phase was where we were doing lots of learning, listening, and understanding that would help us eventually crystallize those three central issues that I spoke of earlier. And then the third phase, of course, has been this planning and action phase, because unlike other public inquiries which simply take evidence and write a lengthy report, we decided that while the mandate of the inquiry is ongoing that that's the time to start doing the planning and some of the action work that's going to continue on into the future. To address those three central issues, we needed to understand what mattered about the story of the home, what continues to matter today for children, youth, families, and community. Thank you, Pam. This restorative inquiry, as Pam was saying, we've done it in a different way. And the former residents basically, I don't want to say they want to make sure that their stories and what they have experienced matters, and that it's important to learn from those experiences so that future kids will never be harmed the way that we were. In doing so, 2012 was when we first had our reunion. It was a four-day event. And there was a lot of pain and suffering that we lived in silence and in silos. And during that four-day event, we all found our voice through singing, praying, crying, and everything else. And we said that, do no further harm. So then we invited people to join us, and that's what we call our journey to light. And our journey to light was to look at anybody in the communities that had any kind of significant role working with youth to come together and look at what we need to do as government and private agencies and police to see what we can do to make sure that when we take a kid into care that we take responsibility to be their parents so that they don't feel that they're isolating alone and going through this in silence. There's been a lot of people locally, the various black communities, royally, different government agencies that has joined our journey to light. We have the privilege of having an international restorative conference here in 2016. And many people from around the world was looking at us and what we're doing with restorative inquiry. And that's people from the UK that joined our journey to light, New Zealand, Australia, United States. That's when we first met Fania Davis, who unfortunately couldn't be here tonight because of illness. And we met Margaret and they invited us to come to Oakland in 2017 to speak about the Colored Home, to speak about the black community and look at doing things in a healing and restorative way. So we're blessed to have so many eyes, supportness, and to take this step. Like as Pam was saying, this is not both blame and shame. This is about us finding our inner strengths in the childhood that we have lost and to help with the healing. Fania unfortunately could not be here, but she's a very strong leader in restorative justice and principles in Oakland where she's from. And in the United States, she's been advocating for many years. Need a letter? Oh okay, alright. Didn't know if the letter came or not. She couldn't be here, but she wanted to test and read off a letter. Warmest greetings to all from California. I am so sorry I'm not physically present at this historic gathering, marking the completion of the mandate of the Nova Scotia Home for Colored Children Restorative Inquiry. In 2016, Jennifer Llewellyn and Tony Smith invited me to Nova Scotia. Through them, I received the honor of learning about your amazing work. I attended a community gathering, visited the RI office, and met staff and former residents. Many of you whom I met are likely present today. Though I can't be there for health reasons, I'm happy that Margaret Burnham, a colleague and cherished family friend who I've known literally all my life, is there to exchange knowledge and share stories about the amazing restorative justice and anti-racist work her organization is doing in the U.S. The great poet Maya Angelou said, history, despite its wrenching pain, cannot be unlived. But a faced with courage, need not be lived again. And Sankofa, the African proverb, counsels us to go back to the past to fetch the seed of a new future. It is beautiful to see that the restorative inquiries work in examining the experiences of former residents and others related to the home for Colored Children in the larger context of Nova Scotia's history and legacy of structural and institutional racism is following the wise counsel of both Maya Angelou and the Sankofa bird. And in doing so, you are lighting the way for us in the U.S. as we forge our own path in creating restorative justice-based processes to tell the truth about and transform historical and present day harms of white supremacy, slavery, mass incarceration, and deadly police practices. The RRI teaches us that a U.S. truth process cannot rely on a centralized, hierarchical approach guided by experts, and that we must intentionally create decentralized, bottom up, inclusive, and radically democratic processes that elevate the voices of those most directly impacted. The RRI teaches us that addressing harm holistically requires attention to recognizing and restoring not only relational but also structural dimensions of harm. This means working simultaneously on intra-personal, intra-group, intergroup, and system levels. You also affirm our belief that circle processes to individually and collectively consider responsibilities and reparative action as well suited for this type of multi-level work. Though so much work lies ahead, this is a time to celebrate the completion of this phase of the RRI's historic accomplishments. I celebrate with you in spirit. I am confident that what you are doing and what we are beginning to do in the United States, inspired by you, will allow us to face our respective history's pain with courage so it need not be lived again. It is allowing us to fetch the seed of a new future. A deep bow of acknowledgement and gratitude to you all. Fania Davis. We are very pleased that you're here tonight and that we can elaborate and talk a little bit more about this process and doing it in a different way. At this time I'd like to share the video of our journey tonight. My name is Jennifer Llewellyn and I'm also one of the members on the Council of Parties and as a commissioner part of my role is to be an advisor on the process. And this is one of the first, the first restorative approach to a public inquiry. But it doesn't stand alone in terms of its vision that what's needed for justice is truth and reconciliation. And we see countries around the world seeking to make good on that vision of what restorative justice might mean for addressing our past injustices and moving forward to a different future. So this evening we have two speakers who are going to help us think about that. We're very pleased to have another member of the Council of Parties and the Executive Director of African Nova Scotian Affairs, Wayne Hamilton, who's going to share some of his experience as part of the inquiry and its contribution to addressing systemic racism here. And then of course we're very pleased to have with us Margaret Burnham who will share her experiences in the United States and around the world. And so following that we're going to invite some of our restorative leaders from Nova Scotia to help us reflect and consider the implications for our way forward. So I welcome Wayne to the podium. Good evening. If I was asked to say something let me begin by saying this. What will you do different tomorrow? How can we work towards a shared understanding? This work that the RI has done, the work that lies ahead, it's requiring us to take a serious look at the society in which we live. And that experience of looking back of the home is very clear that systemic racism manifests itself in lots of different ways. And it cannot be understood with a singular item or a singular action. We need to look at it through the whole. And that racism is not only the result of individual actions that we observed or personal prejudices or stereotyping or even intentional acts of discrimination by individuals but rather what we found was that this racism needs to be defined through a series of societal, cultural and institutional beliefs and practices irregardless of the intention that subordinated and oppressed one race for the benefit of another. So if we use a racial justice definition we can include these beliefs in acts but we have to know that individual acts of prejudice was only one dimension of this story called So within the scope of the work of the RI we have come to clearly see how things were soled, they were fragmented and in different ways that the government has even structured that allowed to hide this notion of systemic racism from the view and it makes it harder to address. When we think about this notion of racism has many parts and it's bigger than one thing or the other it means that we need to change the way in which the system actually works and the processes that we need to take on in order to dismantle racism. The change that needs to go forward has to be comprehensive and it has to be able to address it everywhere and not just for some locations. Folks that work within the government are in the majority and they're white and in society the majority of people that we have interaction with are white and we have to get folks to understand that privilege that comes with that and how that operates in the system and how it tends to perpetuate this thing called racism and how they have to support people of color but in different particular kinds of ways and for us people of color the process of how we empower ourselves does involve us struggling with the internalization of those racism things that we still carry and how can we impact them. So the Resort of Inquiry was designed in such a way that allowed that reflection it allowed us to share our understanding. So we tried to create an environment for people to inform each other about how did they understand what happened and what was most important to them. We tried to bring multiple voices to examine why they held certain beliefs but more importantly why they took or did not take a certain type of an action both in the black community and various government departments. It was very evident that everybody was wanting to do something but they didn't have the means by which to bring it forward. So if I was to say something I would say that this notion of dismantling racism it's going to be a lifelong journey. None of us are beginners but none of us have the perfect clarity. The greatest commitment I think that we can make is to pay attention to pay attention how these issues affect us not only from the black community but the larger white community as well. And if we change the issues of justice, equity and fairness it will come but will not come without resistance and the denial of the fact that our pain does exist and we have to realize that this pain is real. It cannot be dismissed as being angry or frustrated. That pain is real and it has left a lot of emotional scars and people want to think that not capable of racism well if that's the case we still have it today. It still exists. So we need to try and we did try to create an organizational culture within the restorative inquiry that allowed us to understand it from that perspective together where people who are from the community had to commit to holding themselves accountable and where we had to be prepared to name racism where we saw it and we encourage people to talk about it and not to avoid it. There's a professor by the name of Robin D'Angelo who studies race at Westfield State University and she describes this phrase called white fragility and it's a quote that I would like to share with you. White people live in a society whereby the environment protects them, insulates them from race based stress. This insulated environment of racial protection builds white expectations for racial comfort while at the same time lowering their ability to tolerate racial stress leading to what she refers to as racial fragility. This fragility is a state which even with the minimal amount of stress becomes intolerable to the individual triggers a range of defensive moves. This may include an outward display of emotions such as anger, fear, guilt, or being dismissive or any mention of racism institution wants the conversation to shut down. She goes on to say the work of reducing racial bias can't fall solely to people of color. White people need to work within their own communities to combat the prejudice and the racism. In order to challenge the structure of racialization and inequality in these institutions and in culture, every individual must be equipped to modify their patterns of behavior and we must persuade ourselves that the current policies will not do the work unless they change. So I want to close off by saying a few things that I think we've come to know we will not have to trust the leadership or the ability to have safe conversations if we become protective and defensive and in the case of the former residents, we must not sound those who speak the truth and along this journey with the restorative inquiry, I've learned and I've gained an appreciation of the work that is yet to be done and there are four things that I take away that must be interconnected and we must be ever mindful of how we develop this thing called policy. This relies on a constant dialogue between us examining the issues not from the perspective of the government but from the perspective of the community. It should be an interactive process that's built on a shared relationship where the grassroots community stakeholders as well as those in our community get a chance to talk to leaders about what it is that we are all about because we have assets we are leaders, we are innovators, we are idea makers we are able to produce the possibilities, we are just not aware of what government says. I do believe that we've got to consider an action dialogue, talk has been enough we need actions between the grassroots community organizations and government to truly create a racial justice agenda and that is necessary for all of us to prosper. We also need to create the capacity to mobilize others. There's a lot of us that are doing work in different kinds of ways. We've got to find opportunities to bring that capacity more, to create the strategies to craft the right kinds of approaches and share what we have and make sure it's a learning community that we build and sustain these campaigns across all racial lines. And finally this notion of institutional change, we do need to dismantle the policies that don't work we do need to take the practices that created this notion of maintaining the status quo and decide that we really must pull them apart. So we do have to try to create a different model and I think the RI was trying to move that direction and indeed we are. It's long after the RI is over but within the community that we got to trust ourselves that we can get this work done. So I close with what I started with at the top of this statement. What would you do differently tomorrow? And how can work towards a shared understanding? Thank you. So we're going to invite Margaret to the stage in a minute. First we're going to see a film to introduce a piece of her work and she'll say a bit about it in her talk afterwards. So Margaret, I welcome you to come up to the podium. Thank you so much, Jennifer. It gives me enormous pleasure to be here among my co-fighters for justice from the other side of the border. I want to thank the council of parties of the Nova Scotia Home for Colored Children for introducing me to the dynamic and historic work that you're doing in this historic community. And I want to particularly thank Wayne Hamilton and Tony Smith and Jennifer who you may not know this but in our legal community, our global legal community Jennifer is a rock star. And I thank all of you for having me here. I want to also thank 902 Man Up my brothers Marcus James and Sean Parker. He's a Red Sox fan but I've forgiven him for that. I've turned him into a Red Sox fan. I'm sorry he's a Yankees fan. And Ken Fowles and also I thank iMove Arts Association Sobaz Benjamin and all the young people whom we interacted with today, Trayvon and Dorico and Josh and Kate for an absolutely stunning presentation this morning on the Wartley report on racialized street checks here in Halifax. It has been a very short but truly inspiring visit to this great city. And I will say that the work that you're doing on this inquiry restorative inquiry is path breaking for those of us who are in this field, this field of a historical injustice around the world. My prediction is that this work will be for this next iteration of our engagement with this. We'll stand toe-to-toe with the South African Truth Commission. So we are, as Wayne said, we are constantly reinventing, reimagining and redesigning our ways of getting into our history and determining what we can make that history improve our lives and our communities, our health and our welfare and the future that we leave to our young people today. And this particular experiment I would say, or this particular effort to engage with deep and meaningful and restorative conversations while also looking very closely at the consequences for today I think is really quite amazing. I want to share just a few thoughts with you to situate the work in the historical injustice space and then I want to say a few words about my own project and then I want to close with some remarks about the relationship of this historical work to the current campaigns to build our healthy and anti-racist communities. So the work that we all of us are doing is not just an American project, it's not just a North American project although certainly the work that has been done here in Canada has truly been path breaking. But all over the world generations who live under the shadow of the wrongs of the 20th century are acknowledging and seeking to repair their forebears behavior. Certainly we see that in Germany. The Germans today live in a never ending process of trying to understand the bircheries of the Third Reich in their education, when they pave their streets when they pray, when they eat when they walk, when they sleep. It's a constant effort to reintegrate that past into their daily rituals. We see it also in the unearthing of the graves of the Spanish Revolutionaries the remains of the Franco regime where those mass graves were uncovered and the bones disinterred and four years later a reparation law was adopted in Spain. We see it in the British government's concession that it brutalized the Kikuyu during the mid-century Mao Mao uprising in Kenya and ultimately the former the victims were able to settle their claim against the former colonial regime in Kenya for 20 million dollars. We see it in Chile, we see it in Italy which signed a 2008 treaty with Libya apologizing for the injustices of colonialism, repatriating ancient art and pledging billions of dollars in investment in Libya. So these projects abound across the globe. Many of them target as does this one and as my project does, racial domination and subordination. Many others just look at or try to reconcile age-old political enemies and still others refer to the atrocities of the colonial era. But all of them try to imagine strategies for contemporary redress and try to find a language and a path to use this history to reimagine a future. So why are we doing this? Why are we beating ourselves up with this old history? First of all let me just say I'm a law teacher and a former judge as required by law. International human rights principles require that we look and find, identify and remedy past injustice. But more importantly democratic practice requires it because if we fail thoroughly to reject the wrongs and injustices of the past we're only going to, as Maya Angelou so beautifully put it, certainly repeat those. Those belief systems, those underlying systems just repeat themselves unless we can uncover them and reject them with force and certitude. We as human communities are constituted by the intergenerational claims and obligations that we transmit across history and so it falls on each successor community to interrupt these harms until these harms and the inequities that they generate disappear. And I say this because when I say that it's human communities because as Tony put it this is not about blame but it is about mistakes. It is about errors. It is about harm. And harm why? Because we're human and humans are going to make mistakes. Humans are going to err. So the business of life is the business of repair. The business of life is the business of restoring. The business of life is the business of apologizing and making whole again. If we live that's what we must do. And now let me just say a word about how we do the work. And certainly Tony and Jennifer and Wayne have described their practice of trying to shift the weight and the burden of the injustice from the individuals who were harmed. And trying to recalibrate the relationship between those who were harmed and those who did the harming. And so this particular model is just dealing with a complex, this is not a simple situation here in Nova Scotia at the Home for Color Children. You're looking at a complex situation which is not neatly divided along a binary line, along a binary race line. After all, the home was operated by the folks who looked like me who abused victims who also looked like me. So going, digging into that history and finding the structural lines that produced that kind of harm is complicated and takes the kind of patience, the kind of listening skills, the deep listening that this inquiry, restorative inquiry did. Building relationships, building a future, nurturing a practice of safe spaces. A space that is safe for everyone that's safe for black people, for queer people, for trans people, for young people, for seniors. A listening space where people are deeply listening, not a space dominated by the traditional voices of authority, but also not a space that excludes wisdom and experience earned by people who have been doing this work for years, that kind of space. And it's really young people in my country, in the United States, it's young people who taught us what that space looks like and taught us how to harness those spaces and what they can do for us and who taught us how we need those spaces in everything we do. Why do we need them? A gentleman this morning who had been in prison for many, many years, he said, there's no more space in the globe. This is it folks. What we have is what we will have and what our children will have. This is our world. Everyone who is born into it deserves it, has to honor it and has to pass it on. And that too is a space, a space that we have to hold and treasure. Let me just say a few words about my project. Our project looks at Jim Crow violence as you saw. We explore cases that have been ignored by history. And in this case Maddie Moss, who passed away two years ago after we interviewed her, held the story of her father's murder lynching and her mother's incarceration after that for her entire life and did not share that story with her son, who was the last voice you heard on the tape, until we called her and said to Maddie Moss, was your father killed in the Harris County Jail in 1947? And she said, yes, how did you know? And we said we knew because we found a newspaper article about it. She had never talked about that. And what we did was we helped her break her silence. We helped her find her voice. We helped her find her pain and her grief. And we're all entitled to our grief. But in 1947 Maddie Moss could not go to a courtroom. She could not go to her father's funeral. She had to tuck her head. And her sisters did the same, all four of them. And run out of that town. They left town and they lived the rest of their days in Atlanta, Georgia. And they never revisited Harris County. They weren't there when their farm was sold to their white neighbors for cheap. They weren't there to put flowers on their father's grave. And that story was lost to her and her family. Why? Because no one cared. Not in 1947, not in 1957, not in 1967. Not until my student, who you saw, found a newspaper article about that murder, a little small piece in a newspaper, and decided to find those, went on ancestry.com and found Maddie Moss and called her up. Brothers and sisters, we have 500 cases just like that one. Just like that one. That have been buried, unexamined, unexplored. And every time we call a family, I'm sure our experience is the same as the experience of voices and the restorative inquiry. On the other line, the person says, I thought I'd never get this call. I've been waiting for years for someone to recognize me and my grief. And that's why we do this work. Because no one's done it before us. It has yet to be done. Now let me just say a few words about the questions that surface in all of our work. We have to ask why the work of disinterring the past is important to our present. In what ways can we get the folks who are working on that street check campaign to understand the significance of this past history and in what ways can we get those of us who are looking at that past history, who own it, who live through it, who have to pass it on to understand the urgency of the issues they're working on today. And it's a continuum, but there are breaks. There are commas and periods. And so we have to understand that too. We have to understand that, yes, it has been a long time that these problems seem intractable, inevitable, intergenerational and unavoidable and unending. But there are breaks, my friends. There are victories. And those too we have to claim. And we have to connect up those victories where we stand today and think back on why we stand on a different platform today than we did in the past. We have to think about how our work contributes to building a global culture of respect for human rights and peaceful resolution of conflict. We have to think also about how we can both address the immediate needs of victims while we at the same time involve new communities and address more structural and systemic issues that our work lifts up. We have to think about the role of the state in our work. When do we engage with the state? And when do we do our work outside of what it is the state can bring? Every premier is not going to do what Premier O'Neill did in this province. And even when you get an apology, when you get an admission where do you take that? How do you keep pushing on that? How do you use that to get to the next level? We also have to think about what constitutes repair because as I said using Maddie Moss as an example disenfranchised grief is a signifier of black life. Grief, our grief has been ignored and it's not just the grief that the broader culture recognizes that when you lose a loved one, a relative, a husband, a lover, a child you can grieve. In our communities you can grieve for the loss of ancestors for extended kin. We can grieve for Henry Moss because his people were not able to grieve for him. We can grieve for those who came to this land 400 years ago to eke out a living and who were met with racism. We can grieve for the mit-mack dispossessed of their land. That too all of that is legitimate grief for which we need to hold and build our work. I want to close with a thought from a young woman who read us a poem this morning. Her name was Asha and what she said this 14 year old past is in our bodies. We are the past as we live our lives, we look in a rear view mirror to tell us where we're going as we look in the windshield. We're doing both things at the same time. We're looking in the side view, we're looking behind us, we're looking in front of us. The history that we are recovering that some of us lived through Tony and others has meaning for who we once were but also for who we have become. And it also signals who we might become. These events are not sealed off from our past, they penetrate our lives in the present. We come together, brothers and sisters so that we can be open to the teachings of the past that is ours and so that together we can construct a future. As Maya Angelou said, we can't untether the limbs from the lynching trees. We can't unring bells but we need not repeat it. Thank you very much. Someone invites Sobas Benjamin to come up and as he does our panelists also to take their seats. Sobas is with us from iMove. I'd like to thank everybody for being here and thank Wayne, Hamilton and Margaret Burnham for giving us much food for thought. My name is Sobas Benjamin and I run an organization called In My Own Voice and I'm really grateful to be able to share this conversation with you through the invitation of the restorative inquiry collaborating with 902 Man Up and really grateful. On the panel beside me, Ricola Brinton, formerly at the Legal Aid, now a Provincial Judge. Absolutely. Congratulations. Jake MacIsaac, formerly a lead case worker for the Community Justice Society now the Deputy Director of Dahalzi Community Campus. So Dahalzi Campus Security at Dahalzi University. A restorative facilitator in this province I should add as well. Tony Smith, a former resident of the Home for Colored Children and co-chair of the inquiry. And you've all met Mr. Hamilton and Ms. Burnham as well. So we're going to move through a conversation with our esteemed panelists. Then we're going to open it up for some questions from the audience and I'm going to ask Kate McDonald, an activist, one of very special facilitators in this city working with young people. But I'm going to ask Kate to come join me to co-facilitate the conversation coming from the audience. Does that sound okay? So we have the same cofa. We have a talking piece. Lovely, thank you Tony. I think I'm going to ask the first question and we're going to do a once round and then come back. So we'll have two sweeps of the conversation and we don't have a whole lot of time. How much time do we have by the way? 40 minutes? Okay, excellent. All right, so the first question really I'm going to ask the panel to consider is how restorative justice has shown up in your work? Is it or how has it as a tool, has it been useful to deal with issues of racism, systemic racism? I've been working in the justice system now for a number of years and so as I said I started out in legal aid and so I was a youth justice lawyer. So for many years I was advocating for the use of restorative justice in the criminal justice system for my clients. I saw through my work that even in trying to advocate for my clients my racialized clients were negatively impacted even by something as positive as restorative justice. So it shapes the way I do my work now as a judge. It gives me a different lens to see the people that come before me because I know that the system is still structured in a way to exclude people and so I have responsibility to make sure that the process of restorative justice, which is a process that allows those who may not have access it actually opens up opportunities for people to actually be healed to have justice and so it shapes the way I do my work and the role that I hold as a judge and I'm sure it will continue to do so. Thank you. I guess the bio mentioned about my work with restorative justice within the Nova Scotia Restorative Justice program and so I started as a facilitator and working with cases and bumped into Racola many years ago and I've had opportunity to work as a facilitator on a number of different processes but I would say this in terms of the most meaningful restorative process that I've been a part of today has been this one because it's given us a space to have a conversation that took incredible bravery from unlikely leaders so people whose voices had been silenced in horrific ways for generations finally having a voice and when they found their voice they showed us a way to have conversations that mattered and as a community they taught us not just the what but the how using circles in sharing ways that were attentive to relationships and paying attention to how we care about one another, how we show up in spaces and I'm excited about what the future holds because I'm not sure of the what but I am pretty confident that the how is this is an important moment of self-determination for our community. We have learned that the way we will invite people in to speak with us and share with us in a way that we've learned to talk to each other and share with each other, respecting relationships, empowering folks to have a voice, using a talking piece to demonstrate some presence. I'm excited about the momentum that is underway in our province right now because of the leadership of the former residents of the county and others they've taught us a different way to show up and when we invite government in to our communities instead of asking can we do this from now on it will be the expectation that you sit with us in this way hear from us in this way and so the most powerful experience of restorative justice for me has actually been this process despite the other professional work. Jake, you want to keep on talking because I love what you're saying. What it means to me was being introduced to my family and that's the former residents. There was a lot of learning and growing that we have through this here process and the most exciting part of it is seeing how we're all transformed and that I remember when we had our first meet and greet when we had the R.I. Office and said I want my story to matter. We just don't want to tell our story for the sake of telling that we want it to matter to make sure that nobody goes through what we went through. So we started building relationships and again do no further harm. So when we went forward with this inquiry we had the privilege of connecting with the premier, Steve McNeil and that when he granted us this inquiry he said I want you the former residents to select the people to be part of the design team. I want you the former residents to come up with an inquiry that's in keeping with your mantra do no further harm. I do not want it to be perceived as government's interference and he's been true to form. So we had complete autonomy to do what we need to do to try to do the healing within the former residents within the black community and the community at large. So the thing that matters most when we were doing this here was what we learned with the design team were all different. We all come from different backgrounds and people say that I may say something that may offend you but I don't intend to but this is how I'm going to learn. And so we learn and we want to take that same environment that we went to to the various other government departments and other organizations like the AUBA, the board of the Nova Scotian Overcolored Children, people closely connected to the black community in the colored home, the RCMP the regional police, the various government departments and we want to make that environment to be safe because they were waiting for us to tell them what to do. And we're saying no, no. We're here as partners. We want to work collaboratively to find out what's the best way that we can learn together to move and do the right thing. So is building those relationships creating a safe space and I say again once again that the greatest experience is seeing the growth of us former residents and our voice does matter. Sorry Mr. Hamilton. That's okay. Now in the work that I'm doing, I'm using it to connect to the folks that I'm working with in my job. We haven't had an opportunity right now inside of the office to try to find ways to use the same kind of a process in the community but my sense is that it's going to be the one that we will all have to use and learn. Right now I'm finding it as a way to talk to some of my colleagues so that they understand why is it that they do the kinds of things that they do especially when they have interactions with our community. And it is uncomfortable for people to think differently about why they do things and what's the impact and what's the outcome. It does force people to come into a space where there's a level of equity where there's no person doing anything other than listening and that deep listening has to happen. And it takes a lot of patience in order to really get to what you're hearing and not interrupt with the but. So some of the folks that I've had this conversation with, that's what I'm asking them to do. I'm asking them to think deeply around how and what they are doing that affects our community in such a way that they're not being defensive but they're allowing somebody to understand why they did it. And oftentimes it's an uncomfortability about I just didn't know any other way to do it. Or I'm not quite sure if I would do it in such a way that somebody would accuse me of being on a racist act. But once you get that out it really allows people to breathe for the moment, the stress starts to come down and then you can start to dig in to say put the child or the family at the center of this discussion and not worry about wrapping a policy around it or a program. We're going to try to change things and put it on its head. So to Sylvaz's question we are planning to use it way more than we're doing now. But it's just the beginning. Thank you, Wayne. You're welcome. It's really pulling Restorative Justice into new territory. The Restorative Justice movement has been for a long time a largely white movement with very little involvement of people in color. Fanya Davis and a number of other people really made that, transformed that so that it does speak to the issues that are of significance to people of color now. It also has been a movement that has had trouble identifying the structural issues that has relied on something which is clearly important, how do you build deep, meaningful relationships that allow people to work together and get the work done that needs to be done. So all that is critically important but it's not just about the individual relationships it's also about understanding and making a commitment to transform structures, to understand and make a commitment to transform structures. And for a long time Restorative Justice did not actually look at that. And so that's why I find this particular mission to be particularly attractive and promising because it does look at that. We use Restorative Justice tools in our work but we also use the term Restorative Justice as a double meaning. For us it's about restoring justice. What would it take in these cases of historical justice to restore justice at this point? And we say that there are basically four elements to that. First is identifying truth. The second is recognition, recognizing the pain, the grief and the harm. The third is psychology. And finally some kind of reparation. All four of those elements have to be present in order to restore justice in the settings that I work in. Thank you. A couple things have stayed with me just before I ask the second question. And I want to sort of speak it so that I remember it and incorporate it into my own practices. But Margaret, when you said about it's not about blame but it's about maybe focusing on mistakes, there was something inclusive about that shift from blame to acknowledging the fact that we're all human beings and we all make mistakes and that it's okay to deal with the mistakes that we make. So that's important for me. And also I think what you just said in terms of restorative justice, the act of restoring justice is significant. So I'd like to ask the panel and then we're going to open it up for discussion and I'll ask Kate to join me after we've had this second round. A lot of, or not a lot, many, some people have thought that restorative justice is not up for the challenge of dealing with tough things like systemic racism. I'd like to know from each of you what are your thoughts on that? Is it up for the challenge and if so, how do you see it? It's definitely up for the challenge. I think about restorative justice. When I think of the word justice, and I've been considering this a lot, but when I think of the word justice, to me it has to be redefined. Because justice that has a notion that it's not restorative is not justice. So the fact that we have a system, we have systems in place where we think things are happening that are just, perhaps because there's an outcome or there's some sort of closure. I think that's been a deception for us as a society. And so when I think of restorative justice, and when I look at it from the criminal justice system is one of the most stubborn institutions we have. And we're endeavoring to include a restorative approach and restorative justice, but it is going to be a process and it's going to take a lot of time. But it is up for the challenge and so when I think of the criminal justice system and then I think of things like systemic racism, the only way to approach them in my mind isn't a restorative way. If we're going to move past or move forward, we have to have a lens to look at an outcome that is restorative because there really isn't another way. If we're telling ourselves there's justice outside of that, we're lying to ourselves. So that's what I think. Thank you. Yeah, I think it definitely is robust enough to tackle a deeper interrogation of what's happening. And so I think when done well, restorative justice pays a lot of attention to the experiences of individuals. It gives a lot of room for people to speak their truth and listens for how those impacts and harms are connected in a way. And so understanding that restorative justice digs deeper than just what's on the surface, but what matters most, what are the context, the causes. And I think really sets to examine the relationship and that understanding that key for justice is just relation. And so this format gives us an opportunity to do that work in ways that we wouldn't ordinarily do it in sort of the way that Ricola's described seeing every day. This allows us to do a deeper analysis of it. Thank you, Jake. Restorative justice, sometimes you hear people say, what is it? You sit around a bunch of circles and talk, right? It's a lot of work. It is a lot of work to get around the table with complete strangers and trying to have a conversation where they feel comfortable to be themselves and no longer strangers. And when you look at justice again, like what you're saying, you have to redefine what justice is because justice is different for different people. And with us, with the former residents, justice was to be believed to be heard, to stop denying a lion that it never took place because of the pain and suffering that we had. That's why we came up with no further harm. We know what it does. So getting the apology is justice to us. Going through the court system, if we had to go to court, it would have took 50-some odd years and we had 167 individual cases and then we wouldn't be certified as a class action. But then again, it's the us and them. It's combative. You're not really being able to tell your story. So with the settlement part of it, we did it in a restorative way where you may not have been subjected to abuse but the time you were there, you were subjected to seeing it. So that was part one. Part two was claims that there was further harm and on four different levels and we had a facilitator to help get you prepared to go in. And then you're actually able to tell your story. There's no cutting off if you got to have this piece of paper to prove this and that and somebody's interrogating you. And I can tell you that a lot of people have explained to me, and I know I witnessed myself and my sister and my own going through that process is that you're transformed. You know, it's very powerful. So when it comes to justice, what is justice? And in our case, justice was do no further harm, leave nobody left behind. You know, join our journey to life and that means help understand and let's start building those kind of relationships. And I can tell you that when we had that first retreat in 2012, people wouldn't even look at you. They're shaken, they're nervous, and we found our voice. A year later up in Troll, wow, everybody looked different. The body postures were different. Eye contact, a sense of confidence. So again, what is it that's justice for you? It's vitally important. I'll pass you the microphone up to Mike. I'll be brief. And I think I'll concentrate on what's so best as it relates to what I'm thinking through in terms of institutional racism. I think we're sort of, justice can work, the kind of things that we want to do can work, but it'll only work honestly if the large, more mainstream white society doesn't see me as a failed manifestation of who they think I am. And as long as somebody comes to talk and have that conversation and see me as my own imagination as to who I am and they accept me for who I am, then I think it would work. It won't work. Honestly, it will not work if the person that you're trying to have a dialogue with just assumes that that's what they're supposed to say or to do. I am not a failed manifestation of white European society. I am who I am. And you can tell when people accept that because then you can engage in a conversation. So for me, it will only work if we know that that's the starting point. Then I'm not trying to create a world where I have to fit into yours, nor should you have a world that fits into me. We've got to find a common space. To me that's the only way it would work. I would only add that I think we're sort of, justice has to be thought about as a tool and also not as a mathematical formula. Are there certain essential elements that together constitute restorative justice certainly? But it has to be, it's adaptable. It's a tool. And it can't be the only tool. Restorative justice alone, if the question is whether restorative justice alone will win struggles for us, the answer has got to be absolutely no. Remember Frederick Douglass, without a demand, without a demand there will be no change. Sorry, I blew that one. But you all remember it. So it has to be, it's in combination with many multiple approaches, some of which may seem contradictory and carefully used and adapted to the circumstances where it can give us, it can illuminate what justice looks like in this particular situation. Restorative justice came into play because the regular justice system was failing. Not just failing us, the Africans, the people in the African diaspora, people of color, it was failing everyone. And so that's why restorative justice, I too was a judge and we didn't have those tools back when I sat on the bench. We had sentencing five years, 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, or probation. Those were the tools we had. So it is, and they will be open to other tools like it that will come along and get us out of this morass that we now call our justice system. Thank you very much panelists. So I'm going to ask Kate McDonald to join me, please. Kate? You may clap. What I'm going to do is ask the audience if you have questions to please direct them to somebody on the panelist or Kate. And she can sort of direct them to people on the panel. And I'm going to run around with the microphone and make sure people have. I'm going to actually take the Sankofa bird with me too. I've seen two hands already, three hands. Thank you all for your great presentations. I have a question and that is what exactly is restorative justice? Because we all know what it is. Perhaps people in the audience don't know exactly what it is. There are tenets of it that people describe. So if I hear, and I'm here in restorative justice, what exactly are we talking about? Does anyone in particular feel passionate about answering this? So Dr. Cooper, you were wanting to know the interpretation for racial justice, restorative justice. I think people do have an interpretation of what would be some of the tenets. And certainly if one of the tenets is an opportunity to have a space for a dialogue and in which that dialogue is some kind of a shared understanding that we're getting to try to get to the root of the problem, and that may mean a long conversation about how I have to respect your position, you have to respect my position and what we're trying to get is some meaningfulness around how that dialogue will help change. Not that I want to persuade you, but I have to understand why you think the way that you do and why you would act on that. My hope is that if we take an approach that allows for there to be some space for those kinds of conversations, they won't be top down, they won't be telling me or telling you how I'm supposed to act, and somebody's willing to say to me, I hear what you're saying, I appreciate what you're saying, and I agree with that position. What I am saying is that I'm hoping that you will enter into this dialogue so we can come to some kind of a common understanding. And in the work that we've done with our eye, it really was trying to get to a commonality about what actually happened. There are so many ways that people interpreted what they thought was the truth. What we arrived at was something we're by consensus of that's probably going to be able to hold us the narrative of what happened and how it happened. So you'll have people that have a different interpretation of what the values of restorative inquiries are to be, and what we think is the way that we pulled it together. We were inviting people into a space at their own understanding where we weren't laying blame. We just wanted to have people have a really deep, meaningful conversation to allow us to then move together. Not saying that they were all perfect, but we did have opportunities in my opinion to have people who were closely connected to what happened, to those that didn't know anything come together to have a commonality of what are the actions that we need to take. Because no one entity can take it. It has to be all of us together. Yeah, thank you very much. Also there are little ones in the room, hey friends. So basically what we are talking about right now is having meaningful conversation to understand each other's points to try and understand each other better. Does that make sense? Amazing. And we have the... My name is Wayne Talbot. I'm from Truro. I thought the last question quite intriguing. The one around systemic discrimination and was this tool robust enough to deal with it. I guess my problem is twofold. Number one, we didn't create this stuff. We're the victims of it. And it's prevalent in all of our institutions. So like maybe we can take on small battles, but the root inside of society I don't know how we do it. And I'll give you a quick example. I was in the Sphere Room on Wednesday for the carding presentation. And even though the evidence was so strong that carding had no real effect on the prevention of crime, the one strong request from the community was suspend it until we understand it. And the powers that be said all the right things, but at the end of the day they refuse to suspend it. I don't know if it's a question in there or a comment. Also, Mr. Fells would like to speak. I'm just like my brother from Truro. So I'm... I want to go back to that very last question. I mean, so Beth was a great question to ask about restorative justice. And I certainly do appreciate the answer that Tony and the doctor gave simply because I think their understanding of racism, particularly in Nova Scotia in the diaspora, is that there are too many things to unpack. White privilege, the acknowledgement of racism in the first place. And just like my brother from Truro said, we're the victims. So that means the other side has to recognize which they've never done. In 400 years there's been no acknowledgement. Even in the decade for people of African ancestry it took them three years to acknowledge it in Nova Scotia. So my question is rather simple. How are we to manage with restorative justice being one aspect of it to unpeel that onion so that there can be some sense made in supporting people of African ancestry in our province? Is that mic on? You want me to interpret for our folks down here? For our little children? Pardon me? Oh no, do you guys understand? Do you understand what we're talking about? Are you sure? You can say no. It's okay. Okay, I love you. Are you talking about systemic discrimination? The systemic barriers that have never been lifted even after integration? Yeah. I would have to look at this. It's probably the greatest opportunity we had in Nova Scotia to start addressing those issues of systemic discrimination and institutional racism. First and foremost as I told you how we got the inquiry and how it was being led first voice by the former residents and the three central issues we're looking at institutional abuse, looking at the child welfare system now to make sure that we change to make it better for the kids coming to care and to look at the issues of systemic discrimination and institutional racism. What the inquiry has been able to do and I know you guys don't know this and you'll get a lot of this information when the report comes out. In order for us to do our work we had to do our circles. Various departments various people from the communities and things of that nature. The very first circles that we started with was with the former residents as to what they want this to be that sets the narrative. We then started to build relationship with all the different people we identified as government departments and things of that nature. We have a council of parties that are made up of deputy ministers that have been working with us through this journey for three years as well. The move and I can just tell you briefly is that when we had our debrief with the deputy ministers, the ministers and the premier they all recognized in order to address the issues of systemic discrimination and institutional racism within that institution is that you have to change the institution itself in the way that they do business. And that means to be more inclusive to have people that looks like us at the table when it comes to making policies and things of that nature that affects us that normally we are not there. These are changes that I have seen, that I have witnessed that we'll be able to elaborate more when the report comes out. At the beginning we're actually at the table, we're having relationships that we never had before within the black community. And we as the black community what we're hearing through our travels and what we even heard today speaking with the youth is that we have to get more united. We have to look at what are the issues that are important to us to address so we can do it collectively when you were talking about the police and the checking and all that kind of stuff. Look how many years it took us to be heard by government when we went public. I went public in 98 and then more and more people came. It was a lot of years but we never gave up. And what happened when we first got together there were so many different things that we wanted to do because so many people have been hurt. But we said what is the most important thing for us as a collective group to send a message to government? And once we got that we kept on going. So it takes time and it takes the communities. So like as Wayne was saying earlier you have to create an environment where you feel comfortable. The majority of the people because I worked in government for almost 30 years. And when I look around the room there's not too many people who look like me. I mean I even know fear of complexity. You may say something different. Whatever. But the bottom line so you're not there at the table you don't know their humor. You make them feel uncomfortable because often times they're making fun about us or whatever. So there has to be a way to have an opportunity for the people who do care that works in those institutions that have a voice. And that's what's been happening. And that's what we're hearing from the staff and different people because now they have permission to speak freely before where they couldn't speak freely with their supervisors or managers. So it is a work in progress is going to take time. And that's why we're saying here today we're going to be finishing this inquiry as a matter of fact tonight the physical stuff that we're doing. You know it's been a long journey but this is laying the foundation of those relationships that we built for the communities to pick up on that. Well that's what we're saying. This will be a great tool to learn to use to go to those communities that are affected by whatever the situation may be. They have those open conversations where they feel free to speak their mind and you know not grandstanding or anything like that. And then you will say this is how we're going to address Sarah as a community or as an issue. So I think when we're talking about inviting people to circles to have these conversations. I think in making sure that we keep circles that have values and expectations and obligations for people who sit in circle. So you don't just come to our circle unless you tell the truth unless you're willing to hear and be moved. And so when folks sit in circle the most dangerous thing you can do in circle is come with a fixed position and say this is what I'm here to say but I'm not going to listen to anyone else. And so I think about if people came to circle particularly government leaders particularly people who have power and they heard from us and their commitment was when I hear from you I'm going to make that matter. I'm going to assume that you're telling the truth because that you're saying it so we start by believing your experience. And I'm committing to make that matter your experience. And so when we ask folks then to participate in that circle government leaders, police, whoever to say we've constructed a space for you to hear from us. We've constructed a space to tell our stories and our experiences. Now we want to hear from you how you're going to make that matter. And we continue to invite them back and hold them accountable for what they told us in our spaces. I think that's the way a restorative process can be used. Absent of having them in the circle we're just talking to ourselves. So they need to be invited they need to be held accountable and they need to tell the truth when they're there. Okay so we so many hands are coming up so we basically have running short on time. I saw a hand over there and our principal fells would like to make a statement or a question and we have a young person here who has a question. So I'd like the young person to get an opportunity to ask a question. But principal fells you had something you wanted to say if you could say as swiftly as you can it would be great. Yeah I'm a 30 second guy. So just going back to Tony it's really important. See the thing for me is you need to get the politicians in that circle. I've never heard a politician say yes or no. Agreed. Yes or no. Once they get in that circle just like you said it's a sacred place. They have to speak truth to power. But you got to get them there first to say yes or no. Then we'll make a change. So I have a question. So how can us youth especially younger generation get involved to help more to get the racial justice that we deserve? That's a great question. She's wondering how youth can be more involved in the restorative justice process. Yeah. You want me to answer? Well first of all I just need to say that it sounds like there's still a lot of questions around how this process actually goes and how effective it will actually be. So I want to say that I hear that and that there's a lot of things that are coming up around barriers and that we're also piloting something here that has been successful. So a lot of these questions are entirely valid because we don't have a sustained pattern of success to measure that. On top of that I'm pretty sure that restorative justice circles are an indigenous practice. So this is also something else that we need to acknowledge while moving forward. And that also talking in our community about our pain with each other or with anybody else isn't always a favorite thing to do and hasn't always been encouraged for generations upon generations. So we are really trying to start breaking the cycle with a circle. So I think that those are all things that need to be acknowledged. Hopefully youth voices will be amplified in those processes and that I'm not sure how one would become involved but I don't know. I'm not sure. We most definitely want to have youth involved in this process and moving forward. We did have a youth come to one of our multi-surance circles to see exactly what we're doing. It is vitally important to have the youth involved and I'm glad that you're expressing the interest. It was very exciting today to hear the youth speak as well with 902 Man Up. This is a very, it would be very hard for us to try to explain in all detail exactly how this process works but we'll be able to do that when we can come and visit and ensure some information. We can set something up with the youth. I'll be more than welcome to do that myself. Oh, sorry. Yeah, and there's a website and an email and I can give you both of those things. It's on the back of the program and also if you all are interested, you're all part of the youth action team, if you're interested we can have somebody come chat so we can arrange that. Do we have time for more? Oh, yes. Okay, here we go. Before I speak, I want to honor the former residents for your courage and your leadership. I'm humbled to be here tonight. Thank you for your groundbreaking work for Dr. Burnham, acknowledge that you're a shining light in the world showing us the way forward. You are proudly Nova Scotian, proudly black and you are the lead for the entire world to see and I want to acknowledge that in you. I want to acknowledge the longstanding lifelong commitment that's at the front and in this room. You don't know me from Adam. My name is Paul Wozni, I represent 9,000 public school teachers and I heard a question here, how do we realize justice in other broken institutions? I want the room to know that there are people who care deeply. I have wrestled with this question my whole life. I am finally in a position where I have the influence to be able to be part of addressing systemic harms that need to be addressed. Next Saturday morning the leadership of the Black Educators Association is coming to present to the provincial executive and every president of every local Nova Scotia teachers union as a step in a journey of remedying systemic harms for learners of color in Nova Scotia. This is not the only process that's happening so long as I am president of the Nova Scotia teachers union. I don't have the answers. You have an example, you have a lifelong resiliency and excellence within your community that we desperately need you to show us the way so that we can serve learners of color better so that you thrive and shine. I want you to understand that there are people that would very much like to be allies and I want to thank you for approaching this in a restorative way where we can engage in conversation. Wayne, thank you so much for making space for me as part of the Digby settlement agreement to come on stream. We did not do our part and I'm glad to finally be at that table but I just I don't know if that breeds any kind of hope into the perspective of the room but there are people that want to be part of this and Nova Scotia has an opportunity to be our world leader and this is just another small step in that larger journey. Thank you so much. Yeah, I appreciate you acknowledging the brilliance and resilience. I think that oftentimes we get caught up in talking about our intergenerational trauma which is very real but that also means that we've got intergenerational wisdom and intergenerational strength and intergenerational resiliency. We are going to get kicked out from the library but I do want the final voice to be heard and then we're going to ask the young people from 902 Man Up and I move to come and thank the panelists. I'm going to hand this to Yvonne Atwell. Thank you very much for the opportunity. First I'd like to say how grateful I am that the residents of the Nova Scotia home for college children is finally getting some justice. I think that's mostly most important. My question leading up to my question I've worked in restorative justice for the last 10 years I was the executive director of the community justice society and actually I was Jake's boss and I work with the judges as well. So my question is how does those folks who are delivering restorative justice processes, restorative justice practitioners, what do you suggest that those folks do internalize their own understanding of restorative justice and how not only when they come to circle but how do you treat everybody in your daily life personally because with restorative justice to me it's about equity, it's about not just social justice but justice everywhere. I use this restorative justice practice with my little grandkids so that they understand when they're doing something wrong. So what is it that restorative justice practitioners delivering this work throughout communities, helping communities understand the question that came from my sister here, what is restorative justice? How do we do that internally first before we start putting a note there because this is a very serious issue and I think that we can have an impact on people's racist attitudes but we have to take care of ourselves first. Thank you. Would anybody like to comment? I can start I suppose. One of the things I'm thinking about in terms of practitioners particularly what was interesting to see in this process was how we've deprofessionalized actually the facilitator role throughout this process that communities have found a way to animate and grow facilitators and when I think about ways that young people can be involved, I think about circlekeepers and learning a way because as was clearly articulated this is not new. This is for generations and thousands of years the way conversations have happened on this land when relationships mattered most and so when communities needed to get together and have conversations and we do this in our families and we do this in our churches and so over time we've started to hold community meetings in ways that don't look like this anymore and so we go to big rooms and we have community meetings and three or four people speak and they pass a mic and then the real conversation happens in the parking lot or when we leave or by text and so we've stopped listening to each other and so I think the way of engaging is to get young people to learn the value of making sure that people are heard as circlekeepers. I think there is always a space for those folks who have capacity within community agencies to be trailblazers to always be thinking about pushing the practice and pushing the boundaries and pushing the application but fundamentally I think that the facilitation and keeping of circles must come back to the community and be decentralised and deprofessionalised and that the community capacity grows. I'd like to ask, we're going to get kicked out of the library we are going to get kicked out of the library. Can I ask the youth from 902 Man Up and I move to come forward I'm going to ask Trey Vaughn maybe to share just thank you to people and then we're going to run really quickly and I apologise to the library in advance for overstaying but it's been a wonderful evening, a wonderful conversation and if the youth, I move and 902 Man Up, if you could come down I move youth, you are here, youth action team London, yeah, you too. Basically we just wanted to say thank you for having, well actually not for you giving us quality time and being able to share your stories and your thoughts on things around because this is what us youth need to know in order for us to make sure it doesn't happen and continue to happen because when things come from the youth it gets more attention than the older generations because they're, no offense enough but they're looking now they're looking to do the things that they were doing in the past years to us now so now we're the ones that need to put our voices out there because it all matters. We're not turning no support down from the adults because we're learning everything that we know from you guys so we really appreciate and this is an honour to have your stories and everything told to us because it means a lot. The honour was really mine the privilege was mine, all praises to the youth of Halifax and the youth of this province, you all are doing an absolutely stunning job of making our lives better so I thank you so much. Remember that we learned that from you guys we learned that from you guys so we just want to make sure that it's all stopped. Thank you folks and we'll see you next time.