 Hey, folks. Welcome to the podcast. So we're doing a special series of podcasts which I'm recording over Google Hangouts. So we're doing audio and video because for some unknown reason people don't want to come see me face to face right now. But there's always opportunity and the cool thing is I'm able to now podcast with people from all over the world. So we're going to get an amazing eclectic mix of people from different industries, different perspectives to share their story and tell us their thoughts and feelings on what's going on right now. And all of that cool stuff. Hope you enjoy it. Please subscribe in all the usual places and enjoy my life. Welcome to the podcast. And today I'm delighted to be joined by Craig Pitt, co-founder of White Cloud Coffee. Craig, welcome. Thanks. It's great to be here. You're in your car. Yes, it's the only quiet place I can get with some guaranteed sort of peace at the moment with the usual interruptions at home that are going on. Nightmare. Nightmare. How's it been working from home? Not too bad. I've been home base before and so the transition wasn't that difficult. But we had a bit of fun with it. My business partner and I made a short video to kind of, I guess, poke fun at what's going on. So yeah, it's not been too bad. Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. I'm used to just, I really like the personal interaction. I love like going and having a coffee or a lunch and like the face to face thing. So it's been quite interesting adjusting. I have to be honest, felt a lot more social now. I'm doing so many video calls and stuff and just reconnected with people that I probably should have reconnected with like long ago. It's been quite interesting actually. Yeah, I guess it's having more, it's weirdly feels like having slightly more time to catch up with former colleagues or people who you needed to chat to. But then some sort of, I was chatting with a friend the other day who said the video calls are good, but they tend to be a little bit more inefficient. Yeah, it's an interesting one. I mean, a lot of people, if they're commuting an hour a day, I mean, that's suddenly at least two hours, you're like, wow, what do I do with the next two hours? That's been quite interesting. A lot of parents as well, and they've got some kids that survive, that's been quite interesting. If you're both working at home, they're not, they're off school, like kind of balancing, balancing that it's quite hard to actually, both of you do a full day's work. Oh yeah, I actually think that's non impossible. And I read a really, it was a thought provoking quote the other day that said, a parent, a teacher, and a full time job are three totally different roles. And, you know, you can't try and do those three things yourself all on one day, because it's just too much pressure. And I think there's a lot of parents, you know, working full time, trying to homeschool the children and play all those roles. And it's actually really challenging. So yeah, I spoke to a CEO yesterday, and he said to his staff, parents, I don't expect you to work more than four hours a day. Yeah, I think that's realistic, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. So what's your story? So elite, elite cyclists from New Zealand. Yeah, well, so it goes back many, many years. How did you like, get into all of that stuff? So I started swimming when I was about probably eight, nine years old, and just loved swimming, swam a lot, you know, every morning, every afternoon after school. You know, my dad was a, he was into sport, was a very good sportsman in his own right. And then so I, you know, I found a love of swimming, and then discovered triathlons at college. But genetically, I'm not destined to run. So yeah, whilst being a reasonably good swimmer, and I then started to cycle, but I found out that I couldn't run. So through triathlon, I discovered cycling, and I just found out with it. And I think from having a swimming background and sort of the training and the, you know, the development of my lung capacity, it just, it all clicked with cycling. Yeah. And so it's about 13. Do you find the swimming breathing is different now to the, the breathing onsite? A little bit. I mean, it's all, if you look at the, you know, like the system, it's just your cardio system in the body, and swimming trains a good, a good cardio system because you're working that sort of, that exercise level where you're within your lactate thresholds. So the system is, the system trains the same, the breathing is slightly different, obviously, because you're having to regulate it more swimming. But yeah, I think it just provided a huge foundation for being able to transition into the sport. So yeah. And did you, how far did you get in cycling? I ended up, so I started when I was 13 and raced a lot in the kind of junior ranks. And I sort of set myself the goal of trying to represent New Zealand. And it took me until I was 27, I think, to get selected for New Zealand. Great. And there were sort of lots of ebbs and flows, you know, in between all of that, I took a few years off at university and came back to it. But yeah, it was, it was just one of those sort of challenges that I set myself and it took 15 years to achieve. Amazing. Amazing. Has it set you up well for kind of business and life, the discipline of getting up early, training, you know, that kind of like lifestyle? I think so, yeah. And I think it's a, you know, it's a mindset that a lot of people who I've met, you know, subsequently who have, you know, had a chosen sport, whether it's cricket or rugby or whatever it is, and played it to a high level, you know, we all kind of share that you're self-motivated, you're driven, you set yourself targets and that growth mindset of always thinking there's a better way to do something or looking for a different way to do something. And I think, you know, British cycling of coined the phrase of marginal gains. And I guess if I look back at what we were doing, you know, in the kind of mid-90s, it was that kind of marginal gains mindset, we didn't call it that. You know, one of our team managers, when we were in our early teens, you can't ride open, you're like big gears on a bike because it damages your knees. So you have a restriction and our team manager figured out that by changing the tires from a 21 millimeter tire to a 19 millimeter tire, we could maximize the gear we were riding. And you know, which gave us an extra, I think, 30 centimeters per pedal stroke, which over a race was an insanely, you know, a big amount, little things like that. Yeah. And that all translates into, you know, your work culture as you grow up and just the way you approach things. So I think it does help a huge amount. Brilliant. And were you competing around the world with New Zealand? I only raced within Australasia, New Zealand. It's sort of a tiered level. And they sort of select teams to race at certain levels. And as you progress, you get up to obviously Commonwealth Games and Olympic. I didn't quite get to that level. But, you know, a lot of the guys I was with who were a lot better went on to ride for proteins, riding the Tour de France. Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I just watched last year at Icarus, you know, the state-sponsored Russian doping stuff. I mean, a fascinating program. Really, I don't know what goes on there. Yeah. And cycling is a brutally tough sport, mentally and physically. And yeah, I think a lot of people who can sit on their sofas and say, well, you know, doping and sport is this or it's that. They'd probably struggled to ride to the shops to buy a newspaper. Let alone, you know, even a seven-day stage race, which was the longest one I ever did, you know, compound fatigue is something when you're doing, you know, 80, 100 mile days back to back, you know, you wake up on a Wednesday or Thursday morning and you just can barely get out of bed and you're thinking, you know, go back on it. Yeah. And, you know, there was a realization in one of those races, I turned to one of my roommates and said, I kind of get, you know, how drugs found its way into the sport because it's just so hard. Yeah. And then you put the pressure of, it's people's, you know, it's their livelihood. Yeah. And if you don't earn money. Yeah. You can see what you can easily see why many go down that path, right? Because your mindset is on winning. Right? Yeah. I mean, it's not the taking part. It's the winning, right? Ultimately. And at some point, you know, you either exit the sport and go find a, you know, whatever job you think you can do as a, you know, having given most of your life over to it, or you make a really, really hard choice. I'm not condoning. I never took any drugs at all. But, you know, it's such a hard sport that you can, I can kind of, you know, don't agree with it, but I can kind of understand some of the mindset behind it. Yeah. The coffee must have driven you most of the way anyway. A nice cup of coffee. Yes. Coffee helps a lot. And that was my first introduction to it because I never really drank coffee until I got into the, you know, sort of elite level racing. And it becomes more than just, you know, something like a stimulant that becomes the part of your routine. Four, five hour training rides, you have to stop for a coffee and just chill out for a bit. That's cool. I'm not nearly the same level, but I've done a couple of like five day cycles. So I did like around Southwest India, and then I did Vietnam to Cambodia. It wasn't a race. It was more like a charity ride. But it was still like, you know, a hundred K a day, getting back on the saddle. That's amazing though, riding around that part of the world. Oh, it was great. So we rode around Kerala, Southern India. And it was brilliant. It was because it's very lush and green in Southern India. And I've been to India. I just had this image of like dusty, dry India. Anyway, we were like, we're cycling through these villages in our Lycra. And they, I just remember these Indian guys standing on the side of the road, all like their arms over each other, like, what, what is going on? These white, white guys in Lycra. I like that. That's the real image. Yeah. The puzzling look on their face was like, what is going on? And it was quite, it's quite hilly around there. So it was, it's tough. And then Vietnam, Cambodia is pretty flat, but great, really great experience. I'd recommend it to anyone. How many people did you do that with? So there were about, I'd say 60 to 70. Wow. Those are really well organized. It was for charity. We raised money and, and it was well organized and they had a little like, like stops at different temples. And you know, it was, it was, you could go like, so it was like different stages in a day. And there was always like a group where really competitive. So you could go really hard. Yeah. Or if you want, you could just chill out and have a chat and just cruise a little bit. So it's quite nice. You could kind of dip in and dip out. Yeah. And, but the, I mean, for me, I love, I love moving and being active. I run marathons, not very fast and crossfit and those kind of things. But for me and for work, I love the discipline of sport and the mental side as well. It was really like, I really switch off when I'm doing something like that, whether it's crossfit or a run or cycle. Yeah. It really helps me cope with that. I've had that conversation a lot. So I sail as well. And we, I crew on a couple of race boats out of Brighton. And it's that same, that it's an all consuming, you know, mental approach when you have to be fully focused on what you're doing. So it allows you kind of, all of the other stresses and worries that you might be dealing with when you're, you know, racing a bike or you're riding your bike, whatever, or you're sailing a boat, you have to be fully focused in the moment. And that is, it just sort of frees you up from everything else that's going on. Yeah. Yeah. It's a massive part of my, of my routine. So when I started my business 10 years ago, and I di-raise my exercise, like it's the most important meeting, like I'm meeting like the most important CEO, I'm never going to count. So I'm not going to be late. You know, you tan up early. And so I put my, my, my, my exercise in like that. And then my wife also likes to do exercise. So we mix it up. The funny thing is right now, is that we're doing, so my CrossFit gym does zoom classes. So I'm exercising more right now at home than I was before. Yeah. I'm doing the same with, I'm doing, you know, a class with the kids, or we'll do sort of impromptu stuff, you know, do some, like I'm spending a lot of time on the trampoline at the moment, which is a really good exercise. It's brilliant. At what point did you move over from New Zealand to the UK? I came for a short kind of two-year stint, 99, 2000, and then went back to New Zealand. And then came back again in 2005. So I've been here, you know, since 2005. So coming up 15 years in August of this year. Great. Great. And then did you get straight into coffee or what's been the journey? No, so I've always, I've always tried to combine work and passion together. It's, you know, I'm much more that kind of way where if I can, so I worked for Specialised Bikes in New Zealand. There was a company that had the agency for Specialised in Australasia. So, so my, my, at university, I studied marketing. So I was very lucky to work, you know, marketing Specialised and Avanti Bikes in Australasia for a number of years before coming over here. And, you know, working for a bike company when you're a cyclist doesn't really get much more fun. Get the best bikes, best parts. Exactly, yeah. And, you know, I got to work with the R&D team and, you know, they'd develop a new frame or something and I could take it out and test it and race it and give them some feedback, which was good. And then came over here 2005. And again, was very lucky to get a job at T-Mobile and their marketing department. Now T-Mobile at the time had a pro cycling team. So, you know, of course I was well aware of that. And was there for a number of years and slowly got to know the sponsorship teams and figured out that the UK team, the UK company wasn't actually leveraging the cycling sponsorship that much. So I just started to sew that team in the business. And yeah, over a couple of years, we started to activate the pro team in the UK and did some great stuff. And it kind of culminated when the Tour de France came to London in 2007. And I actually organised all of the T-Mobile activation around that in London, which was, you know, we did a pub takeover and we gave away, you know, a lot of sort of T-Mobile caps and all sorts of stuff to the crowds. And yeah, just combining work and passion where I can, it's not always possible, but wherever I can. And I try and do that. And ultimately, that's how having exited kind of corporate marketing a few years ago, I sort of had had the kind of time to sit down and go, what do I want to do for the rest of my career? And went well, actually, you know, coffee and cycling are so intrinsically linked. I have a passion for coffee anyway, you know, I've almost got a cafe set up at home. What do you have in there? A repress, V60 espresso? I've got a, well, I kind of switch between a Rocket R58 and a Sage Oracle touch, depending on. And for those, for those not in the know, for those not in the know, what are they? So they're a spread, they're high in the spread. So they've, yeah, so they make very, very good coffee. They've got grinders paired with them. So, you know, they're really lovely machines. And to make good, really amazing coffee at home, they're the kind of best bits of kit to have. And should you only drink espresso? You don't go for the flat bar? Yeah, so I have a, so espresso was the base for the drink. And I drank like an oat cortado, which is a double shot of espresso with a small bit of oat milk. So yeah, I, you know, it's, yeah, I play around with stuff. I played around with a filter brewer a few weeks ago, and it made amazing coffee. And, you know, just drinking coffee without milk, just, and it's a slightly slower brew process. The flavors come through differently, and you can try different coffees through it. So I'm kind of experimenting and learning a lot at the moment, and just having some fun with it. And do you always, should you, you don't always have milk or? No, not always. No. No. And playing around with that sort of V60 that, you know, the filter brews style is sort of opening me up to different flavor ranges, which is nice. Yeah, I like the V60. I also posted a little video on LinkedIn of me doing a little V60. Yeah, is that what you use at home? You've got a V60. So, so I've got a little gaggier coffee machine. Oh yes. So it's like. Is it the classic? Yeah. So that's what I started with. That's exactly what I had. Yeah, not a silver one, a little silver one. Fantastic little machines, yeah. Great little machine, little thing for the milk, I can heat up. It's perfect. And because I'm, well apart from now actually, because often I'm in my office, I maybe make one or two coffees a day on it for me and my wife in the morning, and that's all the use it gets. But it's getting a bit more use now, obviously. But in the cupboard, I've got an aero press, which I like to use. I've got a V60, I've got a French press, and then I've got a little scales, because I did chemistry at university. And I'm kind of, you think, well, you know, making coffee is a little bit like chemistry, you know, you can play around with the time and the way and how much coffee you use. And it makes you feel all scientific. Well, and you've kind of head on the most overlooked, but possibly most important bit of kit, which is a set of scales. And, you know, that's the one addition to most people's coffee set up, regardless of what they're using that will make a huge difference and help the coffee taste. Yeah, I love it. I love it. I probably didn't too much. Well, and in fact, we love it so much that, and this is how we connected, I got all my team a subscription to your coffee, which I do have here, actually, we might as well show everyone. There you go. Amazing. And it's doing, it's really good. It's really good. Thank you. It's one of those things in the office where we, for some reason, we all like coffee. And, you know, we get like a nice, a nice bag and there's a coffee shop downstairs. So people mix it up a little bit. Everyone's at home and they're like, you know, some people are on their own. Some people have got families and so it's a bit of a mix. And as well as our kind of like regular daily video call, it's nice to have a little shared kind of thing. Little routine. Yeah. Yeah. It's been, it's been really nice, actually. So I'm glad it's going down well. No, it's great. So it's interesting. So just to sum up almost your career and a lot of people that never quite look at this, but when you, when you, when you're at school and you go to uni and after uni, people, a lot of people feel like they, they should know exactly what they want to do with their lives and almost know, know their path. And it's not until you speak to people and find out about their careers that you realize that it's, it's fine to try things and people go on different paths and stuff. And, you know, I mean, for you, you're on your third career, let's say, you know, for me, I'm on my second. I did fashion and manufacturing. Now I'm in the recruitment sector. Maybe podcasting is my, is my next full-time career. I'm hosting both. So I think, yeah, the message for me, like to a lot of young people is like, it's, it's cool to try different things and not, you don't have to know exactly what you want to do with your whole life. Yeah, I completely agree. And there's no, there's no right answer. You know, there's, yeah, I've always sort of taken the view of, I'll try something. And if it feels right, you keep going with it. And if it, and if it doesn't feel right, or it starts to feel uncomfortable, you change because there's no, there's nothing wrong with changing direction. You change your direction of travel. If it feels good, if it, you know, if it's adding to your life and you're adding to others, then great, continue on with it. But there's no sort of, I must be a, you know, whatever, a marketer or a banker or a recruitment specialist for my whole career, because, you know, people change, you grow old, you change your views on life. And, you know, there's, there's no harm in changing. Definitely. Essentially, you made the transition from elite sport, which most people find really very difficult into, you know, a more traditional career, let's say, because sport doesn't last a huge amount of time, right? Yeah. And then, and then working for big organizations, you decide to set up your aim, your aim firm. What was, what was the harder, the harder thing to do? I definitely think, so, you know, sport for me was always, because you're sort of in control of your own, you know, you're working with coaches and nutritionists. And, and I was very lucky, I had a very, very supportive family that, you know, you can just focus on yourself, really, which is reasonably selfish thing to do. And then going into corporates, where the dynamic is much different, it's bigger, you're working in teams. And, you know, that shift for me was, was much harder. And there was a lot more of an adjustment into that corporate lifestyle. Even though, you know, the knowledge you take from university sets you up in terms of a functional skill, it's that working, you know, that working with just lots of different cross functional people with different backgrounds who may not necessarily have the same mindset to you or the same objectives, all those sorts of things. And it was a bit of a culture shock, really. So that, that was quite a big adjustment for me. And, you know, probably one that I maybe never quite adjusted to throughout my whole corporate career, because it was always a bit of a challenge to, I like to try and do things, you know, I guess quickly, but corporates don't move quickly. So it was always that balancing act of just because I might be able to, you know, I might think I know the answer quite often, more often than not, I didn't know the answer. But you set off in a direction of travel, but you have to take a whole lot of people with you, or you're part of a bigger team. And I think that was, that's a constant learning for me. So I think that was probably one of the biggest challenges. And then, you know, setting up a small company, again, having worked in those big organizations, you get to apply all of that stuff you've learned. So yes, it's difficult because you are doing everything literally, you know, finance, marketing, admin, sales, you know, yeah, everything, you know, product development, all sorts. Yeah. And again, I'm very lucky that my business partner, we're very similar mindset. He's got a mountain bike background, very sporty. And he's also, you know, we both had coffee and cycling related passions. And when we met, we just had it off and it was a very easy choice. So again, I'm very lucky to have a fantastically supportive business partner. So that makes it a lot easier. Yeah. And did you know, so when did you meet? You met recently and then? Yeah, probably. So I kind of formed the company late 20, that was sort of summer 2018. And I met Phil late 2018, early 2019. And, you know, and, you know, everything was better when you've got, you know, more than just one person focused on it. So the company really started to accelerate when Phil came on board and just shared the workload and came with a load of creative ideas as well. Yeah. Has it been, has it been difficult doing something together with someone like as a co-founder, because I guess you spend more time with him than you do with your family? Yeah, he does. Yeah, I do see a lot of Phil energy. It's, I think because we're, because he's been a, you know, an athlete as well, we have that similar mindset of, okay, and I know that if he suggests an idea or whatever it is, I mean, we agree on something, we're very comfortable leaving it with the other person to crack on with, because we kind of know that, let's get that shared background of, okay, it'll happen, you'll get it done. So it's actually been really quite enjoyable to get on and do it with Phil. So yeah. And what was the plan then? So did you start roasting or you started to open a coffee shop? What's been there, the journey? Yeah. So, so if I look back to when I actually started, I assessed the market and, you know, a few people I kicked the idea around with like, coffee's really, you know, it's really popular. There's a lot of, you know, there's hundreds of coffee brands. And I said, yeah, there is, there's a lot of coffee brands, but the market's dominated by big companies selling coffee beans that are of, let's say, below high grade. And luckily now there's a number of companies like us who have identified that there's some amazing coffee farmers in Brazil, Costa Rica, Peru, Rwanda, who produce really, really high grade beans. And by roasting them light, a light roast, the flavors come out quite incredible. And that's where the gap in the market is, is this, you know, it's called third wave coffee, you know, whatever it's, basically it's allowing the high quality flavors to come out of the coffee as opposed to the sort of medium to dark roast coffees, which pick up a lower grade bean. And because they're lower grade, they have to be roasted darker, which makes, you know, if you cook anything for a long time, it starts to take on the flavor of being overcooked. And it's the same with a coffee bean. If you, you know, if you lightly cook something, the flavor of the natural product will still be retained. And that's where, you know, that was the part of the market. Having done my research, I looked at them and went, yeah, okay, there's these big companies that will be, that have been there for, you know, over a hundred years in many cases. And that's fine. They'll continue to be there. But there is a growing appreciation for higher quality, lighter roasted, more flavorsome coffee. And that's where that's where we've placed ourselves. Amazing. Amazing. Have you gone and visited these farms and stuff? No, I haven't yet. Our head roaster goes out and we try and work directly with as many farms as we can. Again, looking at the supply chain, there's a lot of farmers who just get given a fair trade price, which is actually pretty low. But we go in and we work with high quality, high grade farms, and we pay them the premium for their product because it's worth it. And yes, that means there's more cost in the supply chain, but by working direct, we can save a little bit with, you know, taking out the import exporter. And ultimately, we know we're getting a better product. And for me, it all starts with, again, this is, you know, one of the learnings from my time in corporates is you have to start with a fantastic product. Because if you don't have that underpinning everything, you're always going to be sort of backpedaling and not really making it, making a good go of it. So we spend a lot of time getting the product right. And then we can start to talk about, okay, how are we starting to promote it, which is the phase right now. And we had a, we had a pop up cafe on Brighton Seafront last summer, as part of a, there's a 50 meter open air pool being built down there in the next couple of years. So we, on that, on that site, where there's a pop up bar and a pop up cafe. So it was amazing to be down there and get feedback on the coffee. And, you know, again, Phil and I have had many conversations where we want to take the brand as, you know, it's exactly what you're saying at the start of the call, which is, yes, we're a coffee company, but we're about content. And because of our love of sport, cycling and sailing and, you know, mountain biking, BMX, ultimately we want to be supporting athletes, teams with the coffee brand, so that we're doing, you know, we're supporting the grassroots and that kind of stuff. And that allows us to create content and do the things that we love, but it's underpinned by a great coffee product. Brilliant, brilliant. So you're going to, so you started, so with producing beans, which you'll sell, wholesale, retail, etc. And then also physical coffee shops. Yes, yes. So again, you know, every day I learn something and when we started out, we thought, great, we've got, you know, this lovely coffee. And we thought cafes are just going to beat a path to our door. You know, lesson number one was they don't, and it's really hard work. So, you know, we had to adapt very quickly. And again, so we sat down and went, right, this isn't working for us. Where is a gap in the market that drink a lot of coffee, but don't necessarily appreciate what good coffee is. And we went right offices. That's, you know, that's for us is the sweet spot. So we pivoted very early in 2019 to targeting offices and selling wholesale coffee to offices and saying, you know, we'll guarantee to improve your coffee offer either through customer service, because that's the biggest part of our business is building a relationship and providing customer service, but also having a very good product. So that's where we initially actually really started to grow the business. Yeah. And have left cafes, you know, cafes are great because they're very passionate owners, but they'll take their time to research. And when we do get approached, we'll, you know, put our beans up for sampling. And if someone makes a decision, they prefer beans, that's great. But there's a bigger opportunity for us in offices, which is where we're focused. Brilliant, brilliant. And then the, let's say the B2C offering, so the subscription coffee. Yeah. How did that come about? Through the focus on offices, weirdly, with the coronavirus change and everyone working from home, all of our office coffee customers said, look, obviously no one's going into the office anymore. So our wholesale business almost stopped overnight. And we had as part of our plan this year to launch a subscription model. We just pulled that forward and said, okay, everyone's working from home. We need to pick up the demand we've lost from offices with, you know, people, and, you know, exactly your story. You've bought coffee for your colleagues. And that's happened a lot. We got our subscription service launched, I think, three weeks ago. And, you know, luckily, fortunately, we've done some fun promotions with it. And it's been picked up really, really well. So. Brilliant. Yeah. It's a nice time to innovate when we're at home. It is, yeah. And, you know, thinking time and time to focus. And, yeah, you get disrupted with family stuff and that sort of stuff. But, you know, you can, you know, I'm not a versed to working into the night to get something done. And, you know. No, it's good. Every cloud, sorry to put a little pun on your brand, but every cloud has a silver lining, right? And that's what, you know, on our website, we say every cup has a silver lining. And that's, you know, and that just to pick up on the direct trade relationships, because we're trying to support the, you know, the farmers and pay them a bit more than they would get otherwise. And just working with the communities and building relationships with our customers. And that's, you know, coffee stimulates conversation and relationships. And that's what we're trying to build here is, you know, that's where the silver lining comes in. And, yeah, working from home does have a silver lining. It's forced us to adapt again. And, you know, if the last sort of 18, 24 months, that's been far from plain sailing. But the common theme is adapt to whatever's happening. Yeah, no, very true. Very true. What's the supply lines like now for the beans? Have they been affected a bit? They're okay. They're okay at the moment. So the coffee comes in in a green bean format. And there's, there's decent stocks, you know, so there's no, there's no immediate risk of, you know, because, because coffee beans are a seasonal product. So the, you say in Costa Rica, for example, their picking season was sort of early February, you know, so there's stocks of that product that are arriving. And, you know, quite often we'll pick up, say, half or a significant amount of a farm's crop. And we'll hold that or we'll buy it in conjunction with some other companies and away we go. So, yeah, there's a decent amount of good quality coffee that we can, we can source. Awesome. For someone now that's working from home and used to just wandering to the, to the coffee machine at work. It's a bit of a minefield, like what to buy, what to use, like what, for, for like a little novice, what would you recommend the kickoff for? I think, you know, it all comes down to like, like everything in lifetime and money. So, you know, and a really easy way to get started is exactly what you would, you do with your v60, you know, you can, you can get a plastic v60 brewer for about six pounds. And the filters are, you know, you get a hundred filters for a few pounds as well. And then it's just, okay, and you don't have to buy a special kettle to pour over or scales, but that'll get you started at, you know, a heat dessert spoon of coffee is about the right amount for one cup. And you just play around with it. And, you know, in terms of simplicity, that's a really easy way, cost effective way to get into it. And you can get really, really nice cups of coffee doing, you know, doing it like that. You know, all the way up, you know, I love an Aeropress. If you need to get out for your daily walk. So, Phil, my business partner, did a great video last week, he went for a walk, he lives on a farm near Lewis, took his Aeropress with him, and, and did a video of, just to, because Aeropress can be a little bit technical, but he simplified it really nicely. And that's a great way. And, and whenever, you know, historically when we've gone on holidays or cycling trips or sailing trips, whatever, I'll always take the Aeropress because it makes really good coffee. Yeah. And it's lightweight and you can just throw it in your bag. Yeah. And it's really robust. It's great for anyone that does know, it looks a bit like a test tube. I think they're only like 15 quid or something, 20 quid maybe. Yeah, they're about, they're about 28 or 30, I think. Yeah, yeah, they're brilliant. Yeah. I was actually down in Lewis. I ran the Stenning Stinger trail run. Oh, yeah. I don't know if you've done it in February. February. Yeah, February now. It was pretty muddy. If anyone's keen, get on it. Yes, I bet, yeah. Yeah, no, I can't, I can't run. I, I tend to stay away from those sorts of running events. Cool, the Aeropress. Amazing. Will it, thank you so much for, for joining me from the car. And that's my pleasure. It's great to hear, you know, people that are pivoting and like, we're thinking about different things to do, you know, when these unexpected things from Mother Nature house, but it's great. Yeah. How can, how can people find you if they want to get a subscription and all that stuff? So the website's the best place. So whitecloudcoffee.co.uk is where we, we retail all our products. We do home subscriptions, office subscriptions, and if you want a bit of sort of lighthearted entertainment, our Instagram is at whitecloudcoffee. And Phil and I, we're, again, this extra time we're putting sort of fun videos up. We're trying to get one up a week of, of how we're living our lives and making fun with, you know, having some fun with coffee at the moment. Amazing. Awesome. Well, thanks again, and keep up the good work. And I look forward to getting my next bag. Yeah. Thanks for, thanks for having me on. Pleasure. Good to speak to you.