 The leader of the indigenous people of Biafra, Nnamdi Kanu, has been re-arrested and returned to Nigeria. In less than a year, three governors defect from the PDP to the APC. Who's next, and more importantly, what's the future of the PDP? Well, this is Plus Politics, and I am Mary Anna Cohen. The leader of the prescribed indigenous people of Biafra, Aipop Nnamdi Kanu, has been re-arrested and brought back to Nigeria to face trial. Nigeria's Attorney General and Minister of Justice Abubakar Malami has disclosed. Speaking on the re-arrest, the lead counsel to the prescribed indigenous people of Biafra, Aipop Nnamdi Kanu, had said that Kanu is still presumed innocent of all the allegations under the law. And Kanu denied all the allegations that he's fleeing the country in September of 2017, amounts to him jumping bail. Well, joining us to discuss this is Professor Richard Wokocha. He is an associate professor of public law at the River State University. And of course, we are being joined by Barista Julio O'Logan. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for joining us. Thank you for having us. Great. Good evening. I'm going to start by looking at the situation. Yes, the court has placed a date for his hearing, but let's just look at the man himself. In 2017, just as I said, he jumped bail. Although he has said the reason why he fled the country was for his own safety. He feared for his life. But I want to start by looking at how Nnamdi Kanu was arrested. The government had told us that he was done in collaboration with security agencies on the international scene. But then there's something called a red notice. And I'd like to put it on the screen so that you can understand where I'm going to. I'll tell you what a red notice is. It is a request to law enforcement worldwide to locate and provisionally arrest a person pending extradition, surrender or similar legal action. Now there are two types of information under red notices. It contains two forms of information. The first one is the information on the identity of the wanted person, name, date of birth, the nationality, hair color, eye color of the person, etc. And even a picture of the person that's been wanted. Again, the second information that is contained in a red notice is information that is related to the crime that the person may have committed allegedly. So, because both of you are Leonard gentlemen, I'm going to ask this question, even though that's not necessarily what the government has given us. I mean, the information we have is sketchy. Do you think that the government followed this process to get Nnamdi Kanu back into the country? I'll start with you, Professor Wakacha. The government has told us that they followed due process. And I am a bit, not a bit, but a bit, I have wondered, since yesterday, why that appears to us to be very important? Because the trial is a domestic issue. And with respect to the procedure for trial, if a fugitive is recovered and brought back to court, the trial will continue. It's of no consequence how he was arrested and where he was arrested from. That has no effect and no consequence on the trial process. So I have wondered why we have spent so much time on how he was arrested. There is no relevance to the trial process. So you're saying that he's a fugitive and so, however the government decides to apprehend him and bring him back to the country, it's not of any importance. And even if his fundamental human rights were being one way or the other trampled on, we should not be asking questions. If you could give a swan who you found around from him. I think we will go to Baris Al-Logun for a minute because we're having connection issues with Professor Wacocha. Baris Al-Logun, can you jump in here and tell me what you think about the issue of a red notice and how he was brought into the country. Do you also hold the opinion of Professor Wacocha? Professor Wacocha, I think the British government is coming out to say that he was not released through a traditional process and then I think an issue is being raised on how he was arrested. We have several reports right now, one claiming that he was arrested instead, another one claiming that he was arrested in Kenya, that Kenya and the Nigerian government came together to get him arrested. But then let's wait and see how this unfolds because the big issue we have right now is that he has been brought back to the country to continue trial. Recall that he was on trial, he was granted bail and he has condemned and he also has addressed the cause. The reason why he has condemned that when the military came invading his residence, they killed many persons and he put out a big kill. So he had to run for his life claiming that he probably did not jump bail deliberately. And right now he has been asked to be kept in custody of the DSS pending when the matter will come up again in court on 26th of July 2021. And the lawyers are ready to engage issues that arise and it is instructive to know that as sensational as this may be that on that section 36 of the profile from the Nigerian Constitution in 1999 as amended, there's a provision that every person who is charged with criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until he is proved guilty. So the government really has a lot to do in protecting Nambikan and he has been accused of engaging in subculture activities including inciting violence through the television radio online broadcast against Nigeria. And Nigerian state has been accused of being involved in reasonable felonry in trying to onset the government rather than through constitutional procedure. And how well the government can prove this in court is the case we have to wait for. But I know that if you look at the serious level of insecurity in the South Eastern part of Nigeria, leading to the killings of military paramilitary police forces, destruction of civil institutions and symbols of authority, it may also be brought in there. But like I mentioned, as we speak now, Nambikan is presumed innocent of all these allegations until the post-secutor who's beyond all this they put out and he is convicted to penalize for these allegations. Otherwise it will be acquitted and discharged and then all this we just go into the blues. But I must say beyond that that Nambikanu that we are talking about was born on September 25, 1967. And recall that the Biafran war started in 1967 and ended in 1977, claiming federal rights. And that tells us that beyond Nambikanu, we have a movement that is ongoing. Actually, what used to be notable in our history, asking for self-realization. And in fact, the coalition of Northern groups said that the arrays of Nambikanu may not end the Biafran agitation. So I think the government should look beyond Nambikanu and begin to address the fundamental crisis that we have in the country that we define our coexistence on the platform of our motto that says unity and faith, peace and progress. Because as we speak now, we have agitations in the middle world, even in the North we have the South West. And what is all this all about is about engaging our common world for the common good of the citizens. Okay. I will come back to you, Barisalogu, because you've dug deep into issues that I wanted to bring up later. But back to you, Professor Wakata, I hope that you can hear me now. So Barisalogu has made some interesting points. And before now you seem to be, you have actually said that the circumstances in which he was brought into the country is not necessary and not as important as the case that is before the court. But Barisalogu is saying that, look, he's a British citizen and the British government is saying that, you know, the proper ways or the proper modus operandi for extradition was not followed by the Nigerian government. Will this also pose a problem in terms of, you know, the case that is at hand? Certainly not. That's exactly the point I was making, that the question of how he was apprehended or arrested and all that may generate a diplomatic role between the countries. But it will have no consequence on the trial process. Now, there is no circumstances in which the court will say, oh, hold on here. We can't go on with this trial. They came back to where he brought him from, apply properly and get him properly before you bring him back after he jumped bail and the court issued a warrant. So it will have no effect on the validity of the trial process. But it can generate a diplomatic role between the two countries. If the country from which he was arrested is of the opinion that the process was not followed. But it will have no consequence on the validity of the trial. And like I said, the circumstances are a bit shaky and, you know, blurry. We really can't ascertain which is true or who's telling the truth. And that's because a lot of information has not been released to the public. But let's go back to the statement that was credited to Namdi Kanu as to if he jumped bail or not. He had addressed the court saying that he was afraid for his life as to the fact that the army had sacked his, you know, family home and certain people were killed. And that's why he ran away. Does that, I mean, and we're not preempting the court case right now. I'm just saying, would that in any way hold water in court if you were to make this as a case? That will explain or provide a reason why he jumped bail. As for whether he jumped bail, the answer is yes. From the moment you fail to turn off your trial, when trial dates are fixed, you have jumped bail. So what he has done is provide a good reason, so to speak, for his jumping bail to explain why he couldn't come for his trials. That does not affect the substance of the trial itself. Now that doesn't affect the substance of his case. The question of whether he jumped bail or not does not affect the charges before him. It raises questions as to whether he was irresponsible and abused the privilege of the court in granting him bail. But it does not at all touch the issue of the allegations before the court concerning him, which have to be proved unreasonable that there are criminal allegations. It doesn't touch that at all. There are charges that have been brought against him, of course, through reasonable felony. We've heard that he's also being charged for terrorism and the likes. But we remember when Namdi Kanu was agitating for the state of Biafra, he did say, and I'd like to quote him directly, that for this issue of Biafra, the agitation to be put to bed, there needs to be a referendum. And Bajdao Logo has said that government needs to sit down and dialogue with, you know, the people from that part of the country, the Southeast, because for us to, getting a Namdi Kanu right now might not be the end to Biafra, just as he said. But you were quoted, you granted an interview on radio today, and you were quoted to say that arresting Kanu would help the government to negotiate with the leaders. And I'm trying to understand how does this work? You know, prior to his arrest, the scenario unfolded in the Southeast was becoming extremely dangerous. Extremely dangerous in the sense that it became unsafe, even for Yubu leaders to speak up. They were no longer sure of what to do and where to be. And I'm sure that for a number of them, it became difficult for them to even think of going home if they were not already originally at home. So if you have this scenario, and he is not in position to quote and unquote influence whatever was happening in the Southeast, it opens the door for real leaders, representatives of the people, I don't mean elected representatives, leaders of the ethnic nationality to sit down and to dialogue with the government. It takes that fear off and it takes that distraction off. And if the government is serious, they can discuss. My friend just talked about the situation in the country. He's absolutely correct. And it's not about Diyafra. This country is on a tripod of gunpowder waiting to explode. And I do not see the government doing anything to show the consciousness that look there is trouble looming around the corner. Diyafra is just, a judicial term for Diyafra is just one. People are complaining about refugees emerging within their own home. And people are being driven out of their territories. And I wonder what's going to happen in this country in the next one year when farmers cannot farm to produce food. We are in trouble in this country and the government does not seem to be conscious of it at all and it's not doing anything about it. The agenda for Diyafra is just one. There are agitations all over in the west, in the middle belt, in the north as he said. Absolutely correct. This government needs to realize that we are heading towards a collision course and anything can happen. We need to sit down and discuss how we want to coexist as a country. Okay. I want to quickly ask you one more question before I go back to my stuff. If it was considered a talk show before now it is now absolutely necessary. Okay. I just want to quickly ask you, push back on something that you said earlier on that while Kanu was not arrested, there seemed to be some form of fear. I'm trying to understand where states in the southeast that have governors, they have elected officials, senators and all of these people have security, especially the governors. They have the powers to security and you're telling me that one person, a person who has no powers of the state is a non-state actor. You're telling me or insinuating that Kanu held the whole southeast to ransom? Is that what you're telling me? And that there could not be negotiations if there was a need for it between these governments and the federal government? Is that what you're insinuating? You know, the current thought of the kind of conflict that emerged in the southeast was one that put everybody on the line. You recall that the first asset was an attack on the country from the governor of the state. I think that began the deep end of the conflict. And how is that tied to Namib Kanu? A man that was not in the country. Anybody could have, I mean... No, no, you were not in the country, but can you really say, was there a message saying go to the governor's house and burn it down? But that's what the council considered. As to whether he was in the country, he does not need to be in the country to accomplish it. But did the... Did iPops say that they were the ones who went to the governor's house to burn it down? Was there a message? Was there a memo sent out to say we're targeting the government house? We're targeting the electoral office? Why are we insinuating that that's iPops? And I'm not in any way speaking for iPops. I'm just probing... No, the inauguration of the eastern security network which is uniform and military and character and contrary to law was undertaken and he addressed on that and he talked of what they were going to do and all that. I don't want to... I would have rather preferred not to discuss facts that the court will have to deal with. All right, so I'll move away from it. I'll go to... I would have preferred not to discuss those facts. But as for participation and whether he did anything, the fact that he was not in the country is not at all an issue. Because evidence can be led as to audio clips that were produced in which he gave instructions. Evidence can be led showing video clips in which he gave instructions. If you think that those clips are original and proper and all that are admissible are all issues that are going to be before the court. But you don't need to be in the country in today's world to be able to create the effect. Okay, let me go to Baista. Let me go to Baista's video logo. Again, from what the professor is saying now, does this not also rub off badly on the security apparatus in the southeast? I'm talking about the governors, the security operatives, the commissioners, the police in all of these states. Does it not show a form of weakness? Because this seems to show a lapse in their operations for a group of unknown people to continually attack government facilities in the name of unknown government or attributed to IPOP. Doesn't it show that there had been a collapse of security in those areas and that's why these people are able to do what they're doing? Let's start from the macro environment. Section 14 subsection 2 of the Nigerian Constitution 1999 as amended says that the security and the welfare of the people shall be the primary purpose of government. And it did not say the people of the north or south east or south west or the cities east. So the government has a responsibility to ensure security in the country and to provide meaningful welfare. And if the government has lived up to that expectation, if you're not having the scenario of unknown government, what's the meaning of unknown government that are invading the country, banned it, some of them imported into this country, with supportive policy actions from the government? Look at the case of Sheikh Gumi, who is now the spokesperson for the bandage. He came out with helpers and he found out where the bandages are, that the bandages are pushed into their terrorist activities because of marginalization. Who is marginalizing them? He is now telling us that the military is even complicit in the activities of bandits and the military is responding to pushing him. DSS invited him. He has been released again. And all these tools together will create a worst trust capital deficit that the government has. Don't forget that one of the issues plaguing us in the country now is the issue of nepotism. The presidency, the government has been accused of shifting song with kids gloves and coming hard on Nandik Khadno and Ipob while perhaps making excuses for the headsmen who are killing, across the country, killing farmers. But by the way, could that also be, I'm sorry to speak over you, but could that also be, just hold on, could that also be the reason why Ipob is being proscribed is because there is a face to it. Could that also be that the bandits, there is no face and that's why they're called, you know, unknown gunmen bandits because there are no faces, there is nobody, you know, fronting for them. Maybe Ipob was prescribed because there was a face, there was a group, there was a movement, but the bandits, we do not know exactly who they are. Could that... Where do we position Shekau who has been reportedly killed up to five times? If for the last report that the... Well, let's vocal her up. I do not believe that. Well, let's vocal her up. Vocal her up, as we all know, is a terrorist organization. We all know that it's known worldwide. But we're talking about a case of unknown gunmen, people who are disguising as either the, as either Hertzmen or kidnappers. How do we prescribe those people? Do you know that this country has, this great country of ours has about 40, if not over 40, security apparatus of us. Not just the military, the air force and the navy that are commonly known to the people. You have the customs, you have the immigration, several other agencies and ministries and departments. So if a country like Nigeria is claiming to have unknown gunmen who are operating civilly so freely, we have a virus, we have a terrible case in our hands. And it's a great challenge to the people. I mean, have you recovered from the shock of a report that in Kaduna State alone, within three months, 323 human beings were killed. Reportedly, I'm not talking about those that were not reported, that 949 human beings were kidnapped. I mean, what are we talking about? Consistently, for about two years now, you pick the news in the morning, it's about lawshed, for the something farmers beheaded, this and this and that. So I think we have a terrorism invasion in this country. And the most recent development now is that we are hearing that the Boko Haram and the Bandits and the Samuels of West Africa are now collaborating. All right? To push the jihadist agenda. So where do you put the caution of the Kodushek Obam Sadio that there may be a fuller national agenda of Nigeria and Islamization of West Africa? And Prof. mentioned something earlier about people who are displaced from their natural habitat and others are coming to occupy and General Philos Danjuman retired. Mentioned at the time also that the military may be colluding on ethnic cleansing. The big question of course and asking is that if you have this internally displaced people who is taking over their territories and what the Islamic States of West Africa is coming to do now is to push the agenda of taking up territories within Nigeria and the strategy is to go to the people who feel terrified by the terrorism and offer them support and begin to let the taxes on them offer them what they appear not to be getting from their government. And that is a serious sign of governance failure if you ask me and I'm not so surprised if I go back to the comment by President and Commander-in-Chief of the Amtposes when he was as swimming office in 2015 that Boko Haram has been technically defeated and I think in other areas this Boko Haram appears to be growing in their export. So right now we've come to the point where in Amdicangu it's not the big issue. The big issue now is that is Nigeria united? Can we unite Nigeria? Should Nigeria be the capital of poverty? Should dollar rate be 500 Nairan? Should we be, I mean should we be preparing for increased performance of petroleum? Should we be dealing with the food inflation that's about 2%? Should the hardship in the land the unemployment continue to block share? I know these are the main questions and I really wish that Mr. President was here I would love to ask those questions but in closing because we're out of time Professor Wakacat going forward Ohanez Ndebo has come out to say that there was a forced press release that was put out in their name they've come out to say that they had not put out any release they have nothing to say on Namdicangu's arrest everybody is just asking that he be tried fairly because obviously all eyes will be on this case but going forward do you see any push do you envisage any push or any reactions coming from his followers because they seem to have been a big following and a lot of sympathizers of Namdicangu do you see people coming out in their numbers to probably attack the government saying that maybe the government is just using the sledge hammer on an ant? I do not think so that we this arrest was made so much has already happened in the southeast and his followers have already had so much conflict has already happened so much lives have been lost officially reported and all reported that I do not think that I'm expecting much more from his background at the moment from his sexual at the moment I am more concerned with what my learning friend just raised government needs to change his policies let's not go far at least to the president address the nation on Arise TV I may not be granted to Arise he made two statements I found already disturbing and I think this mission needs to take seriously first he said we have cousins around us which implies that and then he tied up that one with saying that we can't just rely on the sand and separate people so I take that to mean that our borders in those areas where this influence is coming from are officially open as a government policy they are officially open and when he was confronted with the fact that huts men are killing people he said those are foreign huts men so if we have to leave the borders open because we can't rely on the sand and separate people and those who are coming are killing people and displacing them in their positions it means to have problem on our hand and to fire the kind of reactions and the kind of activities that has led our discussion today people are going to be disgruntled displaced people are going to react and all that it's time for our government to take this matter seriously that it cannot be business as usual and we need to confront the Nigerian problem properly and get the Nigerian people to participate in resolving that problem with the progress well I want to thank you Judo Lagoon is a lawyer and of course Professor Richard Wokocha is a professor at the University of River States University and he is of the Department of Public Law thank you very much gentlemen for being part of this conversation God bless Nigeria