 This video is part of a study series titled Biblical Salvation Settled Onesome for All. Please see the playlist link in the video description. Hello again, and welcome back. We're now on our study of John 15 in this series, and I'm sorry that it's taken me so long to do this. It's a very challenging chapter, and it's took quite a long time to prepare for it. So in this study we're going to be looking at John 15, particularly the meaning of Abide in Me, continuing where we left off from John chapter 14. This is a very difficult passage. It requires very careful study. Unfortunately, this will be a very long study just because there's so much to unpack. So please do use the video chapters and maybe watch this study in several sittings if you need to, and do take breaks and keep your mind sharp. Just because there's so much to unpack from this study. So Suppose you were to have a debate about salvation issues, right? And as a rule, let's just say you could only use the gospel of John in the debate. So obviously, as somebody who believes in eternal security, I would probably go to John chapter 6 or John chapter 10 to justify, you know, interminable everlasting life. Whereas a conditional security advocate would probably go to John 15 as their go to proof text. And it's used as one of their strongest passages actually for the doctrine of losing salvation. Because normally when they quote verses, they usually just quote, mining individual verses. And when we go to those passages, it seems the context is very different from what they're trying to quote usually. But this is one where they actually have a passage rather than just one verse. So it requires a lot of careful study. It's a very difficult chapter in the Bible as well. It's, you know, a lot of people struggle with it, I think. And so that's why this is going to be such a long study and why it's taken so long to do this. Because there's so much prep to unpack what this passage is really talking about. And this study still won't really cover absolutely everything. So, you know, do pay close attention and do watch it in bits as well. And do pop in the comments if you think that there's anything that I've missed from this as well. So it's it's quite important to get the context behind this dialogue that Jesus has with his disciples. So I would encourage you, if you haven't seen it already, to see my study video earlier in this series on John chapter 13 and John chapter 14. Because between 13 to 16, this is one long conversation. And so if you haven't seen my previous material, you get to this study, it will seem as if I'm making a few important claims without backing them up, you know, such as the definition of commandments, for example, because I have already offered my justification for that in a previous study. So as I explained previously, I will avoid delving too deep into Holy Spirit related issues. Because I think that really needs its own study with 14 to 16 in mind rather than trying to blend it in with everything else. So we're just going to stick with non-Holy Spirit related issues in this study. Okay. So let's quickly recap some important points from our study of John 14, because this then sets the context of understanding John 15 as well. So remember that Jesus is talking to his closest disciples, he's not talking to the multitude of Jews, not even believers generally. This is a very personalized and intimate conversation with the faithful 11. Consequently, it's a very difficult passage to understand. And even the disciples I think didn't fully grasp what Jesus was actually saying in some verses. And so we do need to make some allowances if you disagree with me on some of the stuff that I say about this passage, or if I disagree with some of the stuff that you might have about this passage, we do need to make some allowance because it is such a difficult part of the Bible and even the disciples couldn't fully understand it. So with our recap in mind, one of the things that we explored in John 14 was that the commandments in this chapter, what are they? Because a lot of people hear the word keep my commandments and they automatically associate it with turning from sins of the flesh. But if you remember from the previous study, Jesus doesn't talk about sins of the flesh in this conversation. He isn't warning his disciples about sins of the flesh. In this conversation, he's exhorting his disciples to be comforted, be of good cheer, do not let your hearts be troubled, believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me, love one another as I have loved you and continue in my love, ask anything in my name and I will give it and bear witness of me. And even though Jesus has other commandments about fleshly sin issues for us are only a few page flips behind in the Bible, for the disciples some of these teachings would have been months ago or years ago. And so they wouldn't necessarily when they were hearing this conversation automatically associate his commandments with those teachings from several months ago. And fleshly sins wasn't really where the disciples or even in fact many of the Jews for that matter really stumbled. And so what we picked up from the previous study then was how John himself in his epistles picked up these same themes. And if you remember we were pointing to what Jesus said in and then pointing to what John said that was similar. And although John's first epistle does mention sin frequently in a very generalized non specific way, the epistle doesn't really talk about sins of the flesh doesn't go on to name all of these different kinds of sins. Rather his writing suggests that the antithesis of loving God and keeping his commandments is those who don't abide in the doctrine crucially that Jesus did not come in the flesh. This is the type of Antichrist that he describes in both epistles. And so that really sets the premise of how John interpreted the conversation that he had with Jesus. So so when Jesus did talk about you know keeping my commandments, it wasn't about whether every single Christian is pulling his own weight in you know turning his life around and cleaning up his life. But rather it's about continuing in the teachings and doctrines of Jesus and in his absence being no longer there to direct the disciples love one another the same as I have loved you and as things are brought to your remembrance pass those teachings and testimonies on to others and continue in the belief that you have of me but but strengthen it with a confident and unwavering belief. And secondly as well another thing that was picked out from our study is that this passage is an encouragement not really a dire warning because a lot of legalists treat John 14 to 16 as kind of like a warning passage about the dire consequences of not continuing and not obeying and you know but that thing is actually everything that Jesus said in this conversation is really meant to be an encouragement to the disciples not a terrifying warning because if you think about it you know Jesus comforts his disciples, he offers the Holy Spirit to be the comforter in his absence. Jesus leaves them with peace and says let not your heart be troubled and Jesus will do the things that they ask in his name and he goes to prepare a place for them in heaven. So there's a lot of really encouraging themes that are being picked on from John chapter 14 and 15 it's not really a dire you know hellfire kind of a warning really. So although we'll be more focused on the earlier verses in this chapter and I'm not going to be able to cover the entire chapter in one sitting but I think some of the stuff at the end of chapter 15 probably makes more sense to group it with chapter 16 really anyway. So we're going to read a little bit ahead I'm going to read up to verse 16 just to give you a more holistic understanding of what Jesus is talking about but the first sort of 11-12 verses where we'll focus particularly on you know the earlier the verses the more we'll focus on them really. So starting at verse one Jesus says I am the true vine and my father is the husbandman every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away and every branch that bears fruit he purges it that it may bring forth more fruit. Now you are clean through the word which I have spoken on to you abide in me and die in you as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself except it abide in the vine no more can you accept you abide in me I am the vine you are the branches he that abides in me and I in him the same brings forth much fruit for without me you can do nothing if a man abide not in me he is cast forth as a branch and is withered and men gather them and cast them into the fire and they are burned if you abide in me and my words abide in you you shall ask what you will and it shall be done on to you as the father has loved me so have I loved you continue you in my love if you keep my commandments you shall abide in my love even as I have kept the father's commandments and abide in his love these things have I spoken on to you that my joy might remain in you that your joy might be full this is my commandment that you love one another as I have loved you greater love has no man than this that a man lay down his life for his friends you are my friends if you do whatsoever I command you henceforth I call you not servants for the servant knows not what his lord does but I have called you friends for all things that I have heard of my father I have made known on to you you have not chosen me but I have chosen you and ordained you that you should go forth and bring forth fruit and that your fruit should remain that whatsoever you shall ask of my father in my name he may give it to you so just a few introductory notes then some people have noted that this passage is quite similar to the grafting in the olive tree analogy in Romans chapter 11 because we have a similar idea that you can be in the tree and you can be cut off just as you can be in the vine in John 15 and cut off but unlike the grafting analogy in Romans 11 in John 15 we actually start with the premise that you are already a branch in Christ this passage does not tell you how you become a branch in the first place or even what exactly it actually means to be a branch in Christ in the first place so we'll really need to carefully consider what that actually means so when he says abiding me or abiding my love or abiding this abiding that abide means to continue to remain to stay in such as sometimes the Bible talks about abiding in somebody's house for a few days or abiding in a particular location or in in or something like that so we have a premise that you can be a branch that is in Christ whatever that means and if you don't continue in Christ again whatever that means you can be cut off and therefore no longer be in Christ again whatever that means now as a side note in this passage abide looks indefinite abide forever and ever and ever but the word itself technically isn't always indefinite so for example abide till you depart from that place or there abide and then depart today I must abide at your so sometimes abide can be a temporary word but obviously most people would agree that the implication of this passage is that it does mean to abide forever so this passage as many of you will know is used as one of the strongest proof texts that you can lose your salvation because you can be in Christ and you can be cut off right so people who believe eternal security then how would we answer this and that that's obviously the interesting question now to some extent you see we could argue that this passage is not talking about eternal life or salvation because it doesn't use a lot of salvific terminology such as eternal life or salvation and normally this is a credible argument as I've pointed out in the last study because when we try and justify eternal security from John chapter 6 or John chapter 10 we're calling upon a passage that passages that actually talk about eternal life whereas John 15 does not at least not specifically or explicitly and this is the problem is that conditional security and work salvation they often have to run to passages that aren't actually necessarily talking about eternal life at the expense of the passages that are that being said though so despite what I have just said and that's why this is such a difficult passage John's gospel was written with the purpose that the reader would have eternal life you know if you take the gospel as a whole so we can't completely ignore the context of eternal life either and many people would argue that being a branch in Christ does assume having eternal life anyway otherwise what on earth could that possibly even mean right so you know if that doesn't mean somebody will save then what does being a branch in Christ actually mean then and are we kind of negating its meaning if it means something different so because this is such a challenging chapter there are so many different interpretations of this passage some of them overlap each having their own various merits and shortcomings so if I were to oversimplify I could categorize most interpretations probably under one of these three okay so perspective number one conditional security that this passage refers to somebody who was saved does not continue in Christ whether that be faith or works depending on who you talk to and is cut off aka they lose their salvation right that's so conditional security you know a lot of them use this passage now the perspective number two eternal security is that this passage refers to somebody who started their journey in the faith but did not continue and so because of the all-knowingness of God if you like they were consequently never saved to begin with so um now Calvinists obviously may insist as well that this includes continuing in the works of the perseverance not not just faith itself whereas obviously in free grace we we wouldn't really advocate or insist upon that the third perspective and a lot of people actually who do believe in eternal security do take this view about this passage is the disqualification view well they they wouldn't call it that I'm calling it that but that this passage refers to somebody who has been kicked out of church or disqualified in ministry or is sorely being chastised in the flesh by God possibly even to the point of death because of really serious sin or disobedience or still technically saved but you know maybe useful for God and so casting in this regard into the fire is kind of firing the Ignatian or being called home it does not refer to Hellfire and I've heard this likened to I heard a preacher once liken it to the firing of a useless employee essentially so that view the third perspective removes any eternal life connotations out of the chapter now there are other perspectives but you could maybe put those as kind of subsets under the the three perspectives that I previously mentioned so perspective number four going home that this passage sort of refers to a believer that has become unfruitful a god needs to call them home to heaven quite similar to the disqualification view I suppose perspective number five lift me up that a believer has been so downtrodden by the devil that they need god to pick them up again this is you'll find out why soon soon but this is called the joseph prince view as I'm going to call it and perspective number six joy that being filled with God's joy and knowing that God's love you that God loves you is the meaning of this passage and if you don't know this or you don't have this joy it could be because you don't have eternal life or you don't have life or sometimes they won't always mean that you don't have life but you're missing something essentially and then perspective number seven and I've heard Steve Lawson say it this way um true that it means the true christ that staying in the true vine as opposed to many of the false finds that are out there such as you know in jesus time apostate is real so um there may be other perspectives because it is just such a challenging passage and it wouldn't be feasible for me to cover all of them but that they're roughly the ones that I tend to to have heard by the most famous preachers or the ones that I've heard the most in a nutshell now obviously this whole video is going to be dedicated to me explaining what my interpretation is but I'll give you a bit of a spoiler alert here that I do believe there is a salvific aspect of this chapter certainly I think it'd be very difficult to run away from that but I think salvation and eternal life is really more of a subset of what it's really talking about rather than the main point and I do also think that you can apply this passage allegorically to other teaching points such as the disqualification of a useless believer but I think that's purely allegorical I don't think that's the main purpose of this teaching and I don't think that's exactly what christ was trying to convey to his disciples so when we understand the the whole story of the gospels christ is kind of handing over the baton so to speak to the disciples and you know he's going to leave them he's going to go to his death they're a little bit discomforted by this and so he needs to comfort them giving them a confident faith in who he is and ensure that they continue in everything that he's taught them particularly in relation to what the truth is generally speaking and so the disciples need to continue in his words continue in his sayings stay rooted in who christ is despite the obstacles that are going to come their way and despite some of the discomfort and the sorrow that they're going to face and following that because where is up to now christ has led them but there's going to be 11 disciples to to share the leadership then he wants them to love one another in the same way that christ has loved them you know not trying to take preeminence over one and each other or being the best of the disciples so to abide in christ then is to hold on to his words hold on to his doctrines and this is how christ sustains us and if a man doesn't hold on to them he won't bring forth fruit in the due season of which salvation is a part of that fruit and i'm going to explain all this and so if he doesn't continue then he must be cut off because he's a burden to the vine itself and the other branches so that's kind of how i'm going to explain this i apologize if what i've just said to you seems very new to you you know i don't like to be that guy that comes up with his own weird interpretations that nobody else has because there's enough of them on youtube already uh yeah i will try to defend my points as much as i can but the thing is this is a very challenging chapter okay most people who cover this chapter from what i've seen only really have short sermons or very short explanations about this chapter some of them complete teach complete nonsense from this passage making absolutely no sense whatsoever joseph prince being one of them there are some longer sermons but i find that those sermons are often littered with a lot of filler where they're just talking about a lot of other things like gardening in general or other passages in the bible or they talk about nothing for much of the talking time and go off in various tangents when exercising very little actual sermon time talking about the passage itself so even a whole sermon could contain little more than 15 minute explanations doing only the surface level tapings into this chapter as a whole because they just go off in these tangents and bang on about gardening for about 20 minutes um i have heard a sermon preaching preached on this chapter using interpretation three that is qualification viewpoint and i do think it was a very good sermon the preacher made some good points but i think you have to glaze over certain details if you make about your main interpretation and i found that really i didn't understand this chapter much more after the sermon than before even though it was a good sermon okay so what i'm going to do i'm going to go through these interpretations uh well these perspectives and give you some of the the merits and the shortcomings of each one uh and why i don't sort of fit in any you know particular one so perspective number one conditional security that john 15 basically means you can lose your salvation so uh that's how a lot of people interpret this passage so this doctrine presupposes that a branch in christ is somebody who is saved has it you know has eternal life and so to be cut off in verse six is to be cut off from this life cut off from everlasting life they lose their salvation now conditional security advocates almost always without question have some sort of a workspace salvation in there somewhere so they will usually say that as well as continuing in your belief about who jesus is and what he has done you also have to continue in your works of obedience okay because if you don't you fall into the james too dustbin so um the reason why they reach this conclusion is obvious is that uh john 15 1 to 6 is sandwiched between if you love me keep my commandments from john 14 15 and if you keep my commandments you shall abide in in my love that's later in verse 10 of uh john 15 so what are the merits of this interpretation where does it come from well the branches are in christ quote unquote okay and so this is then applied to mean having eternal life because we can see from other verses in the bible that being in christ is interchangeable with having everlasting life so like john 5 26 son to have life in himself uh eternal life in uh john 656 dwells in me and i in him uh you've got second timothy 11 life which is in christ jesus uh roman 6 23 now in the king james it says eternal life through christ jesus but some translations say it so obviously somebody using one of those translations would would use this verse as well and then one john 5 11 to 12 that this life is in his son so obviously we've got these various passages that eternal life is in christ and so obviously you can understand why they will make that bridge with uh john chapter 15 here and also as well later in in the chapter abiding in christ or more specifically in his love is is tied with the commandments and naturally as we had to expose in the previous study a lot of work salvation folk that they're filtering their minds at these marginal notes and theologians commentary so that when it when it goes in saying if you love me keep my commandments it works its way around the filter and all the you know theological commentary gets wrapped around it and that turns itself into turn from all the your sins that thou shall be saved because you know that that's often how their mind retranslates what the bible actually says so there are a few things going on here even though the eternal security go-to passage in john chapter 6 and 10 actually mention eternal life the conditional security go-to passage in john doesn't at least not directly okay so they are standing on sandy ground when they have to use a passage that doesn't mention eternal life verbatim and make it about eternal life and then wrestle against passages and explain those away when they do mention eternal life having said that to play the devil's advocate as the same goes they can easily demonstrate that being in christ has a clear connection to eternal life from other the eternal life versus okay we can't really dispute that right so for this reason we cannot just completely ignore or dismiss this passage to win an argument against them either we have to be able to address this passage with eternal life in mind a key focus on abiding in christ here appears to be about commandments as the explicit the requirement for abiding in his love rather than faith since this word does not appear in john 15 and although the word believe was used a few times in john 14 not in the context of eternal life necessarily although that's arguably an aspect of it that's now suddenly stopped because you know in john 15 we're moving away from that so obviously when you look at the passage superficially it looks more commandment orientated or more obedience orientated rather than faith orientated and obviously you know they're going to be kicking and screaming if we start word swapping and just say it just means to believe well we need to be explain why he uses the word commandments if that's what it actually means so you know we did unpack that in the previous study there was what the commandments actually entail in you know in this passage so this is just a brief summary of how they interpret this passage so sorry i don't know why i've put it twice there so being cast into the fire in verse six must mean hellfire as it's not merely metaphorical or allegorical fire you know it doesn't represent something else it mean they interpret it as hellfire okay the fruit that the band branches must bring forth is interpreted usually as works or at least evidence of faith this idea that saving faith must produce works if we cannot see these works then man sees a branch but it does not does not see its fruit uh the commandments are being applied to more or less anything that jesus commanded ever or at least anything that they think you should be obeying which was already explored and debunked in our john 14 study seeing why the commandments in this passage isn't really talking about sins of the flesh and really legalists they often have to arbitrarily pick and choose which commandments they think applies to anyway so i've seen we've seen the merit and origin of conditional security from this passage now let's see its shortcomings and why it's actually easily disproved from this passage okay we we can easily disprove trying to use this passage to justify a workspace salvation we can easily disprove that this passage is some kind of an urgent imminent warning that you could lose your salvation today okay we can easily demonstrate that if this passage did teach that you could lose salvation let's just suppose it did it would be irrecoverable but most conditional security advocates believe you can get your salvation back again they very conveniently change the rules of how salvation loss actually works when it suits them so they make rules in this passage that are different to rules that they put in in other passages and we'll see that in a moment so the first problem with interpreting conditional security from john 15 notice who is doing the work according to this illustration and you can see very very quickly why you cannot logically get a workspace salvation from this passage it says my father is the husband man okay he's the one that's doing the actual work on the vine you are the branches and the branches are attached to the vine so scripture is very very clear in this illustration it's the father that is doing the work he purges he takes away you are a branch now a tree or a vine branch does not do work it's the husband man that's doing the work okay the branches just either the grow through or they don't but the husband man is doing the work now they might try and rebut this saying you know as those other verses we looked at clarify there is work involved based on the commandments you know keep my commandments but if you watched my study on john 14 you will remember that this is a very inappropriate interpretation because first of all they arbitrarily pick and choose which commandments they think you should obey and not obey they don't tell you to go wash in the pool of silo but jesus did quite clearly command go wash at the pool of silo jesus isn't talking about sins of the flesh with his disciples in these chapters here and turning you know turning from them in the john 13 16 conversation he's not warning his disciples about the drunkenness and the harlots on the streets in this conversation looking at what commandments jesus actually gave in this conversation between chapters 13 16 helps us to understand what he actually meant to buy his commandments things like love one another abide or continuing me be of good cheer believe that i am in the father and the father is in me etc etc etc and we can also see as we looked at in the previous study from john's epistles how he himself interpreted this same conversation that it means to abide in the doctrines of christ and we will explore that later as well in our john 15 study and also just in case you haven't noticed fruit itself is not work fruit is the product of work the husbandman does work and gets fruit any of you that owns a fruit tree knows you're the one that's putting the work in it's the tree that grows the fruit but the fruit is not the work you putting the work in is the work and the fruit is something that you're expecting to get from that work okay problem number two then is that although that there are some exceptions most people who believe that you can lose salvation believe that you can repent all over and over again and get it back this is not consistent with the passage though because once a branch is removed and cast forth it's withered and men gather them and cast them onto the fire and they are burned so scripture is very clear that once the branches are removed they are burned in the fire so how can they be regrafted or reattached onto the vine if they have already been destroyed and this is similar to where they often quote Hebrew 6 to say that you can lose your salvation but it did say in Hebrew 6 that if they fall away it's impossible to get them renewed onto repentance so you see how they're not even consistent with their favorite passages and this is kind of a side note but looking at the same verse notice who is casting the branches into the fire because it doesn't actually say that the father is casting them into the fire it says that men gather them and cast them into the fire right well Jesus did clearly explain not to fear men because they can kill the body but they can't kill the soul okay you should be fearing him that can destroy both soul and body in hell but Jesus is very clear in John 15 it's men casting them into the fire now granted this particular point is not in of itself a strong argument because the men in this illustration could be interpreted as angels so it could be angels casting them into the fire but let's just say that if that is so that means then that this is an illustration only so nobody can say well John 15 quite clearly says that you can lose your salvation because this is an illustration it doesn't quite clearly say anything because if it quite clearly says you can lose salvation it's very very clear well then it quite clearly says that men cast them into the fire but we know that men can't cast you into hell fire okay so we must allow some room for allegorical interpretation here you can't you know you have to be careful with how literal you actually try and get this because you can't necessarily be consistent then either that you can't necessarily interpret the fire as being hell fire otherwise so this is you know open to interpretation as as to what what this all really means problem number three then is that the legalists will try to make this passage such an imminent warning that at any point you could disobey a commandment and immediately lose your salvation you might do it in the next hour if you're not careful but this just doesn't really fit the illustration at all because an important condition of the father cutting off a branch is that it doesn't produce fruit now anybody who knows the first thing about gardening knows that fruit does not just suddenly appear nor does it grow continually all the time fruit takes time to grow it takes time for the fruitful and unfruitful branches to manifest a branch doesn't grow fruit continually all the time it grows fruits at certain times of year different times of year depending on the plant species or the climate or the hemisphere but it you know it grows through only at certain times of year and different plant species i don't know a lot about this but different plant species grow fruits on what's called old wood or new wood and so even fruitful branches may eventually need trimming and pruning anyway so that new wood can grow and eventually become fruitful later we'll explore a little bit about that but i don't know a lot about gardening though problem number four is that um people try to use this passage as a dire warning passage but actually this conversation in chapter 1316 is meant to be an encouragement to the disciples not a dire hellfire warning because you know he says if you know these things happy are you if you do them by this all men shall know that you are disciples if you love one another let not your heart be troubled i go to prepare a place for you ask anything in my name and i will do it i will not leave you comfortless you are clean through the word so have i loved you i have called you friends your sorrow shall be turned into joy this is very very very encouraging language for something that's supposed to be this terrible warning that you could lose your salvation okay and further as well building on these encouragements is that when jesus encourages or commands the disciples he very often uses the pronouns you or you and the vows specific to one disciple with an occasional he whereas anything he says to look that looks like it could be a warning or a condemnation to the world like being cut off or reproving the world of sin jesus always says he it there he doesn't say you ye as if he's you know not talking about the disciples directly so we see then that when jesus gives verses that look like they could be warnings it's not so much about the disciples themselves not abiding but rather being able to identify others who will not abide and be cut off and problem number five is that conditional security advocates bend the rules and change the rules when it suits them to do so because if i brought out an eternal security verse like john 10 28 you know that no man is able to pluck them out of my hand or my father's hand in verse 29 they will reply to that well no other man can snatch you out or pluck you out but you can still walk away though right okay well how about this one then we go to john 6 37 to 39 37 and 39 sorry i will in no wise cast out or i should lose nothing so we point that out well he won't cast you out and he won't lose you but you can still walk away my free will okay well okay so we have this premise then i it's you who walks away the father doesn't lose you he doesn't cast you out but then when it comes to john 15 it says that my father is the one that takes them away so they will use john 15 as a key proof text for losing salvation where it's the father that takes away the branches the branches don't just run off or fall off the father willing will fully removes them so they pick and choose the rules when it suits them in john 6 and 10 the rule is that you walk away in john 15 the rule is that you will be forcibly removed so they're very inconsistent with their own rules about how this actually works problem number six as well is that they often use problematic terminology that doesn't really match the passage so for example they might say something like if you stop abiding in christ you will be cut off but the problem is that there are only two types of people or rather branches i should say in this illustration those who abide and those who don't abide they're the two options abiding means by definition to continue to stay to remain so if somebody stops abiding and they did not they did not abide in christ they don't temporarily abide and they're in the branch and they're growing through and then they stop growing through and stop abiding either they abide or they don't abide well if they only temporarily abided they didn't abide okay now as i mentioned earlier in the study there are parts of the bible where abiding is temporary but that's not the case in john 15 so you only have two options you can't invent a third option where you were abiding yesterday and you're not abiding today that's not compatible with the passage same thing with growing fruit either you grew through or you didn't there's no well you grew fruit yesterday but not today that doesn't work with this illustration and so that leads me on to problem number seven is that there's only two options the branch that produces fruit and the branches that don't so if conditional security advocates insist that salvation must produce fruit then if a branch produced any fruit at all it means that the criteria for salvation were met so a branch cannot be cut off for bringing them fruitful because it bought fruit if a branch is cut off and it produced no fruit but we have to have this fruit to be saved well then it wasn't saved then was it otherwise why didn't it produce any fruit okay so you see how they have a self-refuting doctrine and so we see very quickly the fundamental flaws of conditional security from this passage they use a passage that says god removes the branches the branches don't walk away but then change the rules of operation when you invoke passages whereby god won't lose any and won't cast any out and won't let any be plucked out so you know which is it they're trying to justify a workspace salvation from a passage where god is the one doing the actual work a branch on a tree does not actually work okay it just grows they invent a new type of branch to the illustration that the illustration doesn't give because they have self-contradictory salvation requirements for this branch in the first place and they redefine the meaning of commandments and fruit in this passage to be all about your sin and your personal obedience to all the commanded works in the bible when those things are not fundamentally a part of this discussion in john 13 16 we've already seen them in my previous study of john 14 what the commandments are in context and how john understood them love one another as i have loved you continue in christ his love his doctrine his sayings his words believe that i am in the father and the father is in me be of good cheer let not your hearts be troubled so you see how they just turn a comforting passage into a dire warning it's really bizarre so perspective number two then eternal security um or from the calvinist perspective this would be perseverance of the saints i suppose and this doctrine borrows from passages about predestination and injects the concept here so if a branch is broken off god already foreknew it so the branch was never saved but was rather a false believer and this this presupposes that a branch in christ does not automatically equate to being saved well like conditional security that the calvinist may also include the obedient life of the believer as part of abiding whereas free grace and easy believers would would not so what are the merits of this interpretation and where does it come from well later in verse 16 it's clarified that the disciples have been chosen to bring forth through and ordained for this purpose so uh conditional security advocates frequently emphasize free willers underpinning their doctrine and the reason why somebody does not abide but this verse actually implies that bringing forth through is is premeditated on jesus choosing and ordaining those to do it so if the disciples were at risk of being cut off as per the earlier verses it's problematic to say that jesus chooses or ordains something to happen and then that thing that he has ordained doesn't come to pass and even according to verses one two it's the father is the husband man he determines which branch should stay on the vine and not so tying this up with predestination it's kind of meaningless to say that a branch was ever a true branch or saved because it was already foreknown and foreseen by god that a branch would be broken off anyway i'm following on from this if we make a link between abiding in him and having my words abide in you particularly in john's epistle where he picks up the same themes we can tie this with similar verses elsewhere that relate abiding to believing in him or holding on to the initial truth that we received i it's about faith not not work so you know john 5 38 you have not his word abiding in you well jesus did say if my words abide in you for him who i sent you him you believe not so jesus seems to offer in john 5 that the key to having his word abide in you which is what needs to happen there is is believing okay second john talks about abiding in the doctrine of christ that's what you're continuing in the doctrine the truth of who christ is and then in his first epistle he said let that therefore abide in you which you have heard from the beginning so if you have heard from the beginning that that shall remain in you so shall you continue so you shall continue with what you heard the word at the beginning that's what's continuing so it's holding on to the words that you heard at the beginning and it says a couple of verses later the anointing that you have received abiding you that same anointing teaches you all things and his truth and even as this is taught you shall abide in him so again the holy spirit giving you the truth and you're continuing in the truth so um there is some credibility then to the eternal security view um if we understand that the disciples were chosen and if we understand that god for knows all things and i've used similar argument in my study of john 6 earlier in the series because jesus knows from the beginning who believe not so it's meaningless to say they were one saved and now not if god already foresaw that that would happen anyway and there's there's no there is such concepts in the bible as believing in vain 1 Corinthians 15 so um as much as i do think then that there is credibility to reading eternal security from john 15 as one of the aspects it's talking about it does open up some fundamental problems which are going to be a thorn on our side though if we can't answer them when when confronted right so we're still using a passage which doesn't mention eternal life specifically to set the doctrine for eternal life well i can argue that john 15 is perfectly consistent with eternal security and does justify it but it just it wouldn't be my go-to proof text for the doctrine though uh in the illustration the father is removing branches reactively rather than proactively so if this is to be consistent with god's foreknowledge we need to explain why he's doing this you know why didn't he cut off the branch long before it would ever even grow through anyway he's waiting for it to be manifest so this is reactive rather than proactive uh we need to explain what a branch in christ actually is then because if it if it doesn't automatically include being saved it does now sound like a meaningless concept doesn't it you know and if it's not saved how can we say that somebody's a branch in christ even temporarily um we could inject the concept of uh grafting from roman's 11 into this passage which would help to answer but we do have to be careful about putting words in jesus mouth if he's talking about something else though because he isn't talking about grafting and he isn't talking about jews versus gentiles in this chapter either but also out for learning maybe a little bit about a barriculture and horticulture may help us actually to understand this concept in john 15 because we have the illustration but we just need to understand how plant you know husbandry actually works and then we might understand the passage better and we need to explain how to continue in the vine and the meaning of keep keeping his commandments because the salvific interpretation means it can't be works of obedience if salvation is without works and really we did already explore the context of the commandments in the last study anyway so we've already got some good foundations for this from john 14 perspective number three then is the excommunication or disfellowship or disqualification view the discipleship view so this perspective removes any salvific connotations about john 15 making it more about fellowship and church or body of christ membership or discipleship or our relationship with god completely apart from salvation so the branches in christ are part of the body of christ if you like which may be in reference to church fellowship if you like so if a believer is too disobedient stuck in major sin or is just otherwise not profitable in works for the kingdom of god this is harming the rest of the vine then they need to be cut off so that could be ejected from fellowship or disqualified in some way such as ministry or being called home and as i mentioned earlier i've heard this described as firing a useless employee in a particular sermon and an advocate might say then well this passage is about discipleship not about salvation so what are the merits of this interpretation where does it come from well it does answer the problem of the fact that men gather them and cast them into the fire so some would some might say that fire is very strong language if it doesn't mean hell fire like it seems a bit over the top but you know there are one or two other parts of the bible where fire like in first Corinthians three is not equated with hell fire it just refers to you know some something slightly different like so in Corinthians you know we have ejecting a wicked person and someone's whose works are burned because there's just nothing to show for it yet yet he himself shall be saved and crucially as well the concept of being multiple vines attached to one branch is very similar to the illustration of the body of christ whether a different members or branches attached to one body or vine that is christ so there the merits if you like and just a few more so furthermore we see that jesus in verses 14 to 15 he elevates the disciples from not being mere servants but actually being his friends and ties that in with the commandments and this lends itself to the discipleship argument because then there is a distinction between a servant and a friend and doing what jesus commands elevates a person to a friend but the servant still be belong to christ one verses brings to man like james to quoting the old testimony says abraham was called a friend of god or something like that and a key command emphasized as well in verse 12 is you love one another so it's man to man love again lending itself to the disciples loving each other is as fellow disciples as being the key purpose of the teaching so again that's kind of removing the salvific connotations if you like and then based on the joy in verse 11 that you shall ask what you will as well in verse seven one might say that this has more to do with having a joyful christian life while here on earth and having your prayer answered rather than anything eternal life related because these are the actual reasons that that jesus is giving and so you can see perfectly well why somebody would quite legitimately say this is about discipleship not about salvation you know because of the thing the reasons that jesus is actually giving here now i do certainly agree that you can make an allegorical view to this effect so if somebody does a sermon saying this is my view on this passage i don't have a problem with it because i think there is an allegorical interpretation to that but um as you know the john 15 isn't a parable it's not a story so it is metaphorical it is figurative you're obviously not literally a wooden branch attached to a you know grapevine or something so there is room for interpretation of this illustration and it could be this you know this view could be applied as one of the kinds of things that it's talking about or one of its aspects because the disciples will take the reins from christ there are a couple of problems i put one problem there's a couple of problems there are problems that i can envisage with this interpretation is that somebody is saved and still has everlasting life but at the same time is cut off from the vine and cast into the fire um because this now doesn't really have any meaning beyond church membership or happy christian life which is not really being discussed here strictly speaking and he hasn't at the same times well he hasn't abided or continued in christ love even though we're still saying he's saved so i think that'd be quite strange to say these two things at the same time i'm saying that he is saved because once again this has very little meaning um you know shall we say that christ still loves him even though he doesn't abide in christ love so i would only apply the disqualification view allegorically but i would not say it's the key purpose of the passage and also as well another problem with this interpretation is really that it does confound the illustration because if you think about it if if it means disfellowship or disqualification well the men casting the branches into the fire then could be interpreted as believers disfellowshipping disobedient believers but then that means that the men and the abiding branches are the same people even though they're separate entities in the illustration because according to the illustration that if anything the branches represent you or the believers men don't so because men are not branches and branches are not men so that you know the men are only there for one reason there to cast the branches into the fire which the father has already removed that's their only purpose so to say that you are the branch and you're also the men in the same illustration i think is a bit of a strange way to interpret it which is why i wouldn't really make that my primary view so perspective number four then is that god needs to call unfruitful believers home so you could maybe sandwich this in the disqualification view if there is a chastisement aspect to it but logically though so elderly and infirm people could also fit under this category technically speaking that if a believer is no longer fruitful for god then they need to be brought home to heaven it just doesn't fit the illustration this view though because when when the father cuts off the branches he doesn't take them into his house all the men cast them into the fire so it's a very strange and unsuitable illustration if this viewpoint were true so perspective number five is the sort of downtrodden or lift me up view and in this perspective an unfruitful believer is somebody that is down on their luck if you like or under attack by the devil or otherwise extremely discouraged in some way or backsliding and so they just need god's loving kindness to lift them up again but even before i refute this the the holy spirit in you already ought to tell you how this is such a stupid view really you may wonder who actually proclaims this well i found a video where joseph prince expressed this view so we know it's false but his key argument was that the word for takes away in verse two in greek is error which means to lift up and he says you know jesus is always lifting people up with encouragement that that was his argument but the thing is uh you know we've we've got verses like take my yoke upon you or uh you know take up your bed and be healed and so forth so he used an illustration of a vine on the ground that is clinging to the ground and it just needs the lord's encouraging hand to to lift it up now i'm not sure whether this is actually a great vine in this illustration assuming it is notice that the entire vine is down not not just some of its branches but there you go so yes it's easily refuted there are plenty of verses in the bible where error or lifting up is in a negative context where even the passage surrounding it is just so obvious you you cannot possibly apply an encouraging or positive spin on it whatsoever um as you can imagine the verse number six about casting forth into a branch and being cast into the fire you can imagine that didn't make it successfully into the clip of his explanation can't you either the video cut short before he went on to explain that particular verse or he just left it out entirely and declined to address it so now as i have explained i think john 13 16 should be seen as an encouraging passage not a stern warning because jesus is encouraging his disciples but the outcome in verse six is not in itself an encouraging outcome so that you know the lord just needs to lift them up it it's a ridiculous interpretation perspective number six then is that it this passage is all about being filled with god's joy and knowing confidently that god loves you and if you don't know this or you don't have this joy it could be because you don't have eternal life or maybe you are just lacking something what are the merits of this interpretation well it's based on verse 11 that you could say because jesus says that my joy might remain in you that your joy might be full so you could say this is the purpose or the reason why jesus is giving this illustration this may or may not have eternal life connotations depending on who you talk to and then you fast forward to john 16 and again your sorrow shall be turned into joy your joy may be full so they obviously complement 15 11 there are there any shortcomings and while i do believe based on verse 11 and some verses in our previous chapter stood is that joy is certainly an aspect of this conversation and this passage is supposed to be an encouragement not kind of a stern damnation warning or something like that but i would say that joy is only an intended outcome it's it's not the main instruction though you know because the end goal is that christ joy will remain in the disciples that their joy will be full but the actual instruction is to abide in his love to abide in his commandments to abide in his words in other words in other words the disciples are not commanded to remain in the joy quote quote but rather by keeping and remaining in in these other things christ will give them joy so i do not i do not accept that a branch can be cut off simply for lacking joy because it's jesus that gives the joys his responsibility a perspective number seven then true christ that staying in the true vine as opposed to the false vines that are out there such as apostate israel or whether that's false religion or something like that this is a view that i've heard steve lawson express it's not an entire entirely objectionably view i do think there is some credibility to the point being made but the way well certainly the way he explained it with these other vines doesn't really fit the illustration because in this passage we don't have false vines it's just that we only have the true vine and the objective is to stay on the true vine there there is no warning about becoming attached to false vines in this illustration and we'll see why when we study it but i do agree that this otherwise is an important aspect of the passage that being attached to the true christ and remaining in the words of the true christ as opposed to say what the bible would call another jesus or another gospel so before we go through a line by line study of john 15 it helps to recap what we unraveled in our previous study and john 14 to set some context so very crucially we looked at the meaning of if you love me keep my commandments and we see in john 15 that keeping his commandments is a part of abiding in him so if you love me keep my commandments if you keep my commandments you shall abide in my love and therefore if you abide you know in my love well do you love me keep my commandments and so on and so forth okay now as we explained in the previous study that the legalists misappropriated the commandments here to be all about you turning from your sins or some kind of an outwardly obedient lifestyle but what we found from that study was that they arbitrarily pick and choose which commandments they decide are applicable and which ones are not like they don't obey all of the commandments themselves like they don't obey the commandment to go washing the pool of siloam for example the disciples themselves didn't even follow all of the commandments to the bitter end including the ones that legalists love to quote like they always quote that deny yourself take up your cross and follow me but jesus was telling his disciples about going to his death and we know that nobody followed through with that his disciples all the suck him right so it's a bit silly that we then hold ourselves to a higher salvation standard than even the disciples themselves and important if this is important if we take the conversation in john 13 16 as the immediate context at this conversation jesus isn't talking about sins of the flesh he's talking about loving one another as i have loved you a brethren to brethren love believe that i am in the father and the father is in me so who jesus is be of good cheer so you know the commandments are an encouragement not a dire warning and we looked at similar themes that that john echoes in his epistles we saw that the commandments has really more to do with again loving one another as christ has already said here keeping our initial belief in christ and in memory and remaining in the doctrine that that's how john's epistles defined it and again we will unpack that again even more so in this study today so uh you know when we look to jesus saying a new commandment and that you love one another and that all men shall know that you are my disciples we we see how john interpreted that in his epistles he gave us commandment that new commandment keep his commandments referring back to the commandments that jesus was talking about and you know just as jesus told john love one another so john says it to us and uh you know that we know we are the children of god you men shall know that you are my disciples and so we see how those themes are carried on there but john also adds to it as well starting with it always that we should believe on the name of the son of christ so you know john's making it very clear that that that bit there is what you actually do for salvation the rest of it is what follows your salvation after you're saved and then if you remember just as we looked at in john 13 and 14 15 jesus is saying keep my words abiding the word let my word abide in you the love that i have for you we carry that into john's second epistle and what he's saying a bit bit different but very similar abide in the doctrine of christ abide you know in his doctrine that's how how how we remain in him that's how we abide essentially and again you know a new commandment john carries that same theme forward a new commandment but that's the commandment that we had from the beginning love one another just reemphasizing what what jesus already told him so john's epistles give us a very good indication of how the disciples would have interpreted what jesus told them in this conversation so we've already read the passage earlier in the video but let's start working our way through what exactly it's saying in these verses so we see that there are two types of branches essentially there's the branches that produce absolutely nothing and they must be removed and there are branches that bear fruit and are purged of those fruit that they may bear more fruit right and and what we don't have in because we only have two types of branches right we don't have an example here of a branch that produces fruit for a while and then stops producing fruit later we because that that would be an appropriate branch if you were to get conditional security from this passage it isn't there okay we don't have that type of branch being offered here either it grows fruit or it doesn't there's only two outcomes there's no like well a bit of that and a bit of that there's no third outcome here we see that christ the sun is the vine okay the branches are attached to this vine and the father is the one doing the work on the vine by it by claiming the fruit whatever this means we're going to study what this means and removing the useless branches right so bringing forth fruit is premeditated on the assumption that the branch remains abides continues in the vine if the vine does not continue it doesn't bear any fruit so you can't say well it did produce fruit for a while and then it stops producing fruit well no it either it continued or it didn't and if it did continue it did produce fruit otherwise it didn't okay and so we will see that this punches more holes in conditional security because if somebody was in christ for a while quote unquote but then stops being in christ that they didn't abide they didn't continue they didn't remain now it seemed like they were for a season but ultimately they didn't and the father must remove such a branch and we will explore you know what that means and how that actually works with this passage so who the men represent in verse 6 obviously depends on how you actually interpret John 15 I think there are damnation implications to this verse for reasons that will be explained as the study progresses so if that be the case then the men would really only be able to represent angels carrying out the act on behalf of god by by throwing the branches into the fire and that there are verses that talk about you know to that effect of the angels casting them in and so on now I you know allegorically we can apply it to fellow believers in a non in non-salvific lessons from this passage but believers are the branches so I don't really accept that that can then be the primary application of men here because the men are not the branches and the branches are not men as I explained earlier so just to put this in an illustration then to put this into perspective so you know this is just a visual illustration of what we've read Jesus is the vine now I know that's not a very good image but you know to bear with we've got these branches that that bear off this vine and so you know with all these different branches and the people who are in Christ they bear fruit right and then god is the father he's the husband man and he's got to cut off any branches that don't bear fruit and so perhaps we could put Judas in that category we could put the disciples that walk no more with him in John chapter 6 and then once the husband man the father has removed them men gather them and they are with it and they cast them into the fire right so that's a good visual illustration of what's going on here so we are connected to each other and to the disciples as well through Christ right so there's like there's me there there's other brethren there's you it's human that you are in Christ there's the other disciples and so you see how through the vine we're all indirectly joined on to one another in a manner of speaking and then so obviously if one of these branches doesn't produce fruit the father will sever the connection the father also because remember it said that the father purges the fruit from good branches right to the intention that they will grow more fruit and then you know removed branch withered shrivels dies is gathered to be burned right so to make any sense of this illustration whatsoever we need to be able to understand two things two things so first of all how do the branches remain attached to the vine what are the conditions of abiding in him and now we obviously we saw to an extent keep his commandments but we need to expand on what that actually means if we understand how to abide in him and Jesus's instructions to continue remaining in him then we also understand the second thing that we need to know is what the fruit represents in this illustration because once we know how to abide in him then we can figure out what fruit we're actually expected to bring forth and we can understand why some branches do not bring any forth through whatsoever and other branches will bring forth through right now the mistake people make is fruit is often misconstrued as works so there are passages that could be used to argue this and we will explore this later in the study but in the John 15 illustration fruit is not the work that the fruit is the product of work right the father is the husband man the husband man has to do all of the pruning and the purging this is the work that is involved in getting the fruit to grow the branches themselves do not work they either grow through or they don't and that could be based on a variety of factors and secondly fruit takes time to grow right so determining a branch that will or won't grow through is is not necessarily immediately evident it takes time for this to actually manifest now god obviously does for know all things right but in this illustration at least he is removing the branches reactively so after the fact rather than proactively before the fact so even though he knows for knows everything he's still doing this reactively because that way it's then manifest or made known which branches will won't produce fruit okay so understanding some principles in John 15 and tying in with vine husbandry may help us to understand what Jesus is talking about here so the central vine carries water and nutrition obtained by the root into the branches right so the branches they need this water and nutrition to be able to grow any fruit at all right that's just you know common sense about about plants the husband needs to monitor the health of the entire tree the vine he needs to cut off branches which can affect particularly the health of the vine and by extension of this other branches right and Jesus says as a branch cannot bear fruit of itself except abide in the vine no more can you accept you abide in me so if one of these branches were cut off or fell off well they're not going to grow any fruit are they because they're not getting any water and nutrition from the vine that's just basic you know biology as regards to how vines and trees work so the question must be asked then why does a branch not grow fruit and there could be several reasons for this well possibility number one the branch is dead so while the tree or the vine itself is not dead branches on it may well be dead sometimes trees self thin by killing off leaves and shoots and branches to preserve its overall health trees may also self thin because of stress if they don't have enough resources from the ground to sustain the requirements of the current growth for example during a drought possibly possibility number two is that the branch is disease so a branch could have an infestation such as a fungal infection or a termite infestation so just as with dead branches trees may self thin because this disease could spread and damage on kill kill the whole tree right possibility number three the branch is broken and the tree cannot supply it if irreparable damage has been done to the branch the tree will no longer supply it with water and nutrition it might fall off on its own accord some branches are weaker more easily broken than others interesting to note actually this is just kind of a side comment is that trees that grow more slowly tend to have stronger branches actually than trees that grow more quickly so you know perhaps there's some sort of hidden meaning behind that in regards to this passage perhaps you've got water sprouts and suckers so they they grow more quickly than other branches they're very thin they're not sturdy and they're not beneficial to the overall health of mature trees because they're they're weak points in the tree they don't produce any fruit and they are a waste of the trees available resources diverting growth from useful branches so the growth of these sometimes indicates that there may be something wrong with the tree and then possibility number five you've got old wood and new wood now I don't understand a lot about how this works but the rules here are different for various species some species flower and last year's stems some species flower on this year's stems and so the timings of different species affects what times of year they should be pruned pruning and differentiating between old and new wood is important to maintaining the overall size and health of the plant if this is neglected then the plant could become woody and it doesn't produce enough of the right wood to start blooming and again note that it's the responsibility of the husbandman to maintain this god the father is the husbandman right this is his job not not our job and so there's also an important principle here that branches which have already produced fruit as well must be pruned and scaled back a little bit to make way for new branches to replace them to grow fruit in the next season possibility number six is that not enough fruit was purged from the previous season so this is a practice known as fruit thinning where the husbandman removes some of the immature fruit so that the remaining fruit that he leaves attached will grow bigger and better and also so that the plant will grow fruit in the following year because if fruit is not sufficiently thin the plant might not grow fruit in the following year so as to conserve its energy so since the father is the husbandman in this illustration we wouldn't want to accuse job of not doing his job properly right so we see why he has to purge fruit from the good branches so that they can produce more fruit and lastly possibility number seven is just environmental factors you know imbalance of the sun or water or nutrition for the overall health of the plant or just times of bad seasons sometimes it's nobody's fault it's just an unfortunate time or maybe the plant just needs more time you know like the parable in Luke 13 comes to mind where this this parable complements what we've been reading in John 15 that you need to allow enough time for a plant to grow its fruit and it may be that it just needs another chance or a bit more time so in verse seven there in Luke 13 a tree does not grow fruit it's burdening the ground it's taking resources that could be used for other trees so it's a waste of nutrition so we see why the father has to remove the unfruitful branches in John 15 because again they're a drain to the vine and the rest of the ground maybe in some cases the tree or the the vine branch in John 15 just needs a bit more time just a bit more resources to try and get it to sprout but obviously if it continues as in verse nine if it continues to be unfruitful then there is a certain point where you have to say okay this needs to be taken out it's not it's not going to work so with that in mind then we understand the role that the father must take here as the husbandman branches that are dead, diseased, broken, he must remove them because they can affect the health of the whole tree right if the father does not cut off these branches the infestation could damage the healthy vine and the other healthy branches branches that are unfruitful consume and waste water and nutrition they divert and deprive resources from the main vine which could be used to help other vines produce more fruit and to help the vine itself to grow other healthy branches furthermore if you know if the branch is dead or irreparable there's no amount of water and nutrition is going to help it anyway so what's the point giving it any it's not going to produce anything no matter how much you give it right because it's dead it's irreparable and also as well this is probably less important to the illustration but it helps us to understand the big picture is that the husbandman has a desired shape and size for the tree so even branches which are not unhealthy in of themselves appears just so that the husbandman can maintain the tree to its desired shape or direction or size you also have cross branches where the branch is sort of growing towards another branch and they have to be removed because they can scrape and damage each other when blown in the wind so they need to be removed as well and we also understand if this is not already obvious and this is very crucial is that it takes time for a plant to grow right it takes time for fruit to be made manifest plants only grow fruit in certain times of year and must be pruned at other times of year they do not pour out fruit like running water right a grapevine typically as far as I understand it produces fruit between September to November at least in the northern hemisphere anyway and this does this may vary between species and the vine will not typically produce fruit in the first three years after planting either so if we apply that to the illustration of John 15 we must make some allowances the branches need time for their fruit to grow to be made manifest the husbandman is maintaining the vine so that it produces an optimal amount of fruit and this means cutting off branches that are useless or harmful to the overall plant and the husbandman also purges branches that have produced fruit anyway so you know pruning them back for example to facilitate the growth of new wood to encourage more fruit to grow now you might ask why is this important well it it's important because this is a slow paced scenario not not a rapid paced one because legalists who interpret this passage to be about losing salvation and continuing the works they always have this sense of urgency out of this passage that at any moment if you're not continuing your obedience you could lose your salvation suddenly right you could lose your salvation this afternoon according to them but that's inconsistent with this illustration because this is a gradual process where the father is gradually doing work on the vine and then the vine reaches fruiting season and only then is it made manifest the branches which will produce fruit and the branches which won't right so if a branch doesn't produce fruit it's not because a perfectly good branch that did grow through yesterday suddenly turned lazy right rather there is something fundamentally wrong with the branch itself it's a bad branch it cannot produce fruit it is incapable and it must be removed so that it does not cause harm to the remainder of the vine or you know drain their resources or something else right so with that in mind then let's see how we abide in christ in this context so notice what jesus says in verse three that jesus sandwiches this into this passage that you are clean through the word which i've spoken to so superficially cleanliness wouldn't seem appropriate or relevant to this illustration right and yet jesus sandwiches it here so it must be very important to the meaning of abiding in him then the disciples need to be clean to continue in this vine how are they clean is it because you know it says right here is because they it's because of the word spoken onto them it's not because they turned from all of their sins right jesus has spoken the word and the word has made them clean interesting that he says word singular there and then he goes on to same verse seven if you abide in me my words abide in you so christ shows us that dwelling in christ is reciprocated with his words this time plural dwelling in the disciples and by extension of that you as well so we see what is very fundamentally important to abide in christ and this is very very consistent with our previous study of john 14 because remember if you watch that study we saw the true meaning to the statement keep my commandments based on how john himself interpreted it abide in the doctrine of christ believe on the name of the son of god so accepting his testimony love one another as christ has loved you beware of antichrists who deny that jesus is is coming the flesh so understanding that it's about christ's words first and foremost will help us to understand the vine illustration how to abide in christ and what the fruit is etc etc so just very quickly then tying it up with john 14 we saw how jesus did not tie his commandments with sin issues or works rather he tied his commandments with his words his sayings in verses 23 and 24 and then we just carry that forward into john 15 because remember those chapter numbers weren't there in the original epistles right so you are now clean through the word word sayings right and then you know out it's the goal is that christ's words will abide in us so the commandments has more to do with his words in his sayings and we'll we'll see more about what that actually means so this is really important the emphasis of christ's words are the crucial focal point really of the meaning of this illustration and perhaps one of the overarching themes of this conversation when many people talk about john 15 and abiding in the vine this connection is often very under emphasised or not even addressed in in some of what i have seen conditional security advocates only ever make this passage see this sorry they only ever see this passage through the lens of their own obedience and their own maintenance right the nice nice sort of nice god called hell type preachers only ever see this passage through the lens of their own joy and emotional feelings many only talk about abiding in the word superficially but don't really talk about the implications of what it actually means or entails so we are going to have to digress from john 15 sometimes for a while to explain this point but it is really important that we understand this point so just to give you a visual illustration we have jesus's words that's what we continue in we're abiding in christ's words so that his word shall abide in us right so if we drift away from jesus words into not jesus's words well then we're not abiding in christ's words right so that's just a very clear visual illustration of how this is working so are there any practical examples of this or at least you know from a from a salvation perspective well in a way yes because jesus's words are associated with life and he is the life so abiding in the words that he gave and continuing in those words very specifically is quite important so if christ's words that were supposed to abide in say whosoever believes in me should not perish but have everlasting life but then somebody gets up and says well you have to surrender your life to christ to be to have everlasting life or you have to repent of your sins to be saved well that the trouble is if that's not what christ himself said you're then in danger of christ's words not abiding in you because as far as i understand the king james can come good and so anyway the word surrender is not even a biblical word it's not in the bible and whenever jesus said repent he never added these magical words of your sins to the end when when he was preaching the gospel to people so we're immediately in danger of not abiding in the words that christ actually gave right or if he says there is none good but one that is god so he quite clearly explains that only god is good but if you will enter into life keep the commandments someone then says well you have to do good and follow the commandments to enter life well the problem is then you're not abiding in the very word that said there is non good but god right when that when jesus says sin no more less the worst thing come upon thee well people then change that to mean sin no more lest you lose your salvation well the problem is that's not what jesus said in relation to what that means so we're already in danger of christ's word not abiding in you when your words start to drift from christ's words or when christ said i give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand and we had to add this exception that says well you can still walk away though well again you're immediately in danger of not abiding in christ's words because to abiding christ's words you should be staying on those words if you start staying on those words you're not in christ's words then you're in danger of drifting off so that's kind of a practical example if you like and let's just here's a tangible example of this so somebody one i once saw this comment on youtube somebody said baptist will tell you once you are saved you are safe forever and there is no way you can lose your salvation and he's making it out like it's just something that baptist came up with right well it's not something they came up with it's based on the fact that jesus said i give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand so there are those who trust jesus to fulfill those words and there are those who don't it's as simple as that so his reply was then well you didn't pay much attention to the story of what happened to david after i assume she met him and she met bathsheba right well i replied to so let's just see what's going on so we try it tries to pretend that it's man's words right but then it's actually god's words it's based on something that jesus said so we just throw that right back at him and said well this is what jesus said and then he falsely asserts a conclusion here that that i've not read the story of bathsheba like i don't know that it's story exists or something or didn't pay much attention well here's the problem with that in my reply is that i pointed out to him that none of the punishments described in 2nd Samuel 12 say that david lost his salvation all of those punishments affected him in this life only right so there's no evidence then that he could have lost his salvation according to that passage because nathan didn't bring up his salvation so his reply was then nowhere in 2nd Samuel 12 does it say that david could not lose his salvation if he had not repented so here's the problem he first not only did he falsely make a conclusion it was refuted by a lack of evidence for his claim he then goes on to he then falls into this burden of proof fallacy where he's saying well it doesn't say that he didn't you know lose his salvation well that's not how this works if you say we can lose your salvation you have to prove it but he's basing what he believes on something that the bible doesn't say almost as if to explain something a way that actually the bible does say because the bible does say no man shall ever be plucked them out of my hand so you see this is a tangible example of somebody not abiding in christ's words by going by what christ didn't say to ignore what christ did say right so in conclusion you just see that this person tries to make out a doctrine as if it is based only on man's words when shown that it's actually based on the bible argues against it and based what he believes on what the bible doesn't say this is a primary example of somebody not abiding in christ's words when somebody argues against christ's words and invents his own narrative at the expense of the information actually provided by the bible to get around it and obviously we could go on all day about examples such as that i'm not going to do so christ's words then appear to be very important to the immediate context defining what branches remaining on the vine means but let's keep delving because there is more that this chapter can can offer us so we saw earlier that branches that don't bear fruit will be cut off here it is intended in verses 8 to 10 that the disciples will bear fruit so there's a there's a few things to consider here so obviously as i mentioned earlier we'll need to look at what fruit means what exactly should the branches be producing were the disciples themselves be cut off if they were unfruitful because it's one thing saying that you and i can be cut off but what about the disciples and by that i mean the 11 disciples not Judas and what does it mean to continue in his love right because he says continue you in my love in verse 9 is it to do with my works is it to do with my knowledge of god's love for me is it to do with me manifesting god's love to others a lot of people will question what that actually means and how do we grow this fruit how do we remain in this love these are obviously very important questions that we really want to explore out of this chapter so let's start with the first question then so were the disciples themselves at risk of being cut off if they were unfruitful so if we were to take this first in verse 6 as kind of a warning of sorts if you like jesus directs it at a man or you know he whoever he is right so the implication is that he could apply to virtually anybody but he did not direct it at his disciples because he could have said if you abide not see me but he didn't he just if a man abide not in me he whoever he is right on the other hand one might say that then in verse four two verses before he did specifically instruct his disciples to abide in him and obviously you know he did say to his disciples abide in me and you accept you abide in me so we wouldn't want to make this commandment redundant or of no effect right but despite this though it does say later in verses 14 16 that jesus specifically chose them and ordained them to so i don't know why i've put preach fruit there that's a mistake i meant to put bring forth fruit so it's problematic if we say that jesus chose or ordained but then this could potentially come to fail right furthermore jesus also is elevating his disciples from servants to friends who have already been with him already followed him already stayed with him even through the events of john six and we know it we know in hindsight that they will continue in christ anyway right he would have foreknown this because he chose them so that their fruit would remain so i don't think that the disciples themselves were in danger of falling away per se their fruit has already been manifest to some extent but jesus that there is perhaps something that they are lacking and jesus does need to encourage them especially as they they may be somewhat discouraged by his death it explains in the next chapter that they are sorrowful we explored this previously in john 14 so so you know why jesus does mention joy in this dialogue is that the disciples joy would be full that's why he mentions it right but the disciples will be resuming jesus earthly authority over new testament believers they need to be aware of this concept because they will encounter other believers so called who will not abide and who will be unfruitful so even if the disciples themselves weren't at risk they need to be aware of people who may fall away we saw that abiding in abiding was tied in with jesus commandments in his words what about abiding in his love or have his joy remain in us because people will wonder are these all the same thing or are they something different so obviously saying abiding me but is remaining my words remaining my love remaining my joy are each of those three things the same things are the interchangeable and he's saying my sayings by words my commandments keep right well this is a very difficult thing is this is a very difficult chapter to understand and what a lot of people do with the bible is often they do word swaps or assumed equivalency whereby they automatically conclude without really thinking about it or questioning about it that different words or phrases mean the same thing i'll just give you a couple of examples of this so when the bible says deny yourself take up your cross and follow me a lot of people assume that that means the same thing as crucify the flesh even though it's not really it's two different people talking about two different things or when the bible when paul says walk in the spirit and john says walk in the light again they assume that that means the same thing that it's just an interchangeable way of saying the same thing or when it when john 14 16 talks about the giving of the holy spirit and then we have sealed by the spirit in effusions again they assume that that's the same thing and then when they read the old testament about the spirit of the lord departing from soul again they apply that to those two things there as if it's just one interchangeable thing but they're not necessarily interchangeable and that's why the bible uses different words because if if they mean the same thing for example walk in the spirit and walk in the light well then they could have just both said walk in the spirit or they could have just both said walk in the lie but they're not necessarily talking about the same things always when when they say those things so first we must examine then what exactly does it mean by abiding in his love in verse 10 keeping his commandments ties in with abiding in his love what does it mean to remain in abiding his love because we we could really is quite a cryptic statement and we we could wonder several things of what this actually means does it mean continuing the love that christ has for you by loving others otherwise he will stop loving you or the brethren will stop loving you or what happens if he doesn't love you or does it mean continuing the faith so that Jesus will love you and if you don't abide he will stop loving you or he will or you confirm he never loved you or does it mean continuing the faith or the love that Jesus has for you will be of no effect if you don't right or does it mean continue in the knowledge and understanding of the love that Jesus has for you or does it mean continue obeying Jesus or get solely chastised or continue being a faithful christian or otherwise somehow get disqualified or disqualified in some way so obviously it's quite a cryptic statement and I've got you know multiple bullet points as to what this could mean it could mean any one of those things as far as we know if we haven't established what it actually means so because this is such a difficult and cryptic passage I can't give you an exact answer and say with absolute authority this is what it means right I do risk giving opinions here and I must apologize in advance for that but what we can examine the passage and apply various conclusions whether more direct or allegorical so how it applies to the disciples specifically how it applies to us today and understand as well how Jesus loves us or loved us so that we can continue in that in that same love so for the disciples themselves we know how Jesus has loved them up to this point because in verse you know John 15 9 so I have so have I loved you continuing my love Jesus love for the disciples was after the father's love for the son so consider that you know how did the father love the son and how is this expressed in Jesus love for his disciples so in John 5 2021 and Jesus actually said this to a group that rejected him interestingly enough but the father has given the son the same power as himself to raise up from the dead Jesus gave the disciples and us life just as the spirit would later raise Jesus from the dead as per Romans 8 11 and in John 17 24 Jesus says you have loved me from the foundation of the world so the father has a seemingly unending love for Christ that has existed from the very beginning until now Jesus has this same love for the disciples and salvifically we have seen in this study series Jesus knows from the beginning and he chooses so like the father he also loves believers including the disciples from the beginning with an unending love and just as the father gave Jesus glory Jesus wants his believers including his disciples to see his glory and be with him this is his everlasting love and we see from Luke 3 and John 15 that the father was well pleased with the son as the voice of the father came from heaven and said so although Jesus did not use the same turn of phrase in John 15 to the disciples and he did elevate them from servants to friends as they know the things that the father told Jesus so the 11 disciples faithfully followed Jesus from the beginning to end see verse 27 below the disciples in John 6 did not they abandoned him Judas was always false at the beginning as we saw a couple of videos ago in the series and just as Jesus heard the father's voice so the disciples heard Jesus's voice and in doing so they have heard and seen the father right they don't need to hear it from the father directly and just as the father gave Jesus the Holy Spirit to help him do the will of the father so will Jesus give the disciples the Holy Spirit to comfort the disciples to testify of the Christ that they've already been with so that they can bear witness to other people so we see in summary how Jesus loved the disciples and how they must continue in that love right so if if you know if the father loved Jesus from the foundation of the world so you know the father's love for Jesus was from the beginning and also Jesus choosing the disciples was from the beginning and so the disciples and by extension apostles must believe that their election is from the foundation of the world so how does the apostle Paul abide in that love well he believes that God has chosen us before the foundation of the world as he says in Ephesians one for so if somebody then says well you were only chosen because you are now living a holy life and have now turned from all of your sins and God just knew that you would eventually do this and so when you turn from your sins that's when he starts loving you or that's when he starts choosing you well you're in danger of not abiding in Christ's love because Christ's love and his choosing is from the foundation of the world it's not from a certain point in your life right and when Jesus said that the father loves the Son and shows him all things for just as the father raises from the dead and gives them life so the Son gives life to whom he pleases so you know just as the father raises the dead and gives life so does the Son the disciples will be responsible for preaching the Son and in doing so the Spirit will raise many from the dead as people receive their message so how does the apostle Paul continue in that love well the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that's continuing in his love he loved you to give you new life to raise you from the dead so if people start saying things like well there's no resurrection of the dead which is something that Paul warned about in 1 Corinthians 15 well then Christ is dead in vain you're in danger of not continuing in his love because his love was to get you raised from the dead right or people who say Christ is not coming the flesh as John warns us about well if Christ died in the flesh to be resurrected from from the you know in the flesh well that's his love for us so if he's not coming the flesh his love was of no effect right so again in danger of not continuing in his love because his love was that he died in the flesh or if if that like the muslims suppose say that God has no son well the problem is the father loves the son and sent his son so if we're going to say that God has no son well then we're not abiding in the love that God has for the world by sending his son we're in danger of not continuing in his love and you know as Jesus elevates the disciples from servants to friends all things have been made known so just as the father made known his will to Jesus so then Jesus made known these things to the disciples and so following this conversation in John 15 it would be their responsibility to pass on their teachings to the church right and to observe other commandments for example communion which happened before 13 to 16 that's an ordinance that they would be expected to pass on and teach people to observe so Matthew can continuing in that love you know says it redocuments Jesus after his resurrection saying to disciples teach all nations teach them to observe the things that I have commanded you right so if if we're not then holding on to the doctrines and the teachings that have been taught as contrary to Titus 1 9 or if we're at risk of believing in another Jesus or another gospel than what's been preached well then we're in danger of not continuing in his love right because the things that he commanded and the things that he taught and the words that he gave and the doctrines that he taught that's all a part of his love is to teach us those things and then as we see later in chapter 15 that you know the comforter is is given to the you know the Holy Spirit so with the Holy Spirit the disciples must bear witness to the things that they have been seen and taught if they and as it says in 26 to 27 they must bear witness so then if they don't testify of the Christ how then is the Holy Spirit supposed to be helpful for them in any way why would they need comfort at all and if they don't bear witness how will the teachings and the testimonies of Christ be passed on to the next generation church after they're departing and so John as somebody who continued in Christ love he goes on to say you know we have seen and do testify you know that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour and he talks about in chapter 5 in his first epistle that this is the witness of God he has testified of his Son he who believes on the Son has the witness he who believes not has made God alive because he does not believe the record he does not believe the witness so the Holy Spirit is there so that we shall you know bear witness right so if we're not receiving or we're not believing the witness of the Son but then it's up to the disciples you know to bear this witness as per Romans 10 how shall they hear without a preacher if we if we're not receiving that or believing that how can we continue in his love if we don't even believe in the witness we don't believe in the record or if we say that the record is not enough as many of the legalists suppose so following this then we can apply the love that Christ had for us and see how we must also continue in that same love so you know remember in our previous study of John 14 we saw how salvation is based on Christ oh God loving us not the other way around right so we can now go to you know we can now go outside of John 13 16 because now we can also follow what the disciples passed on to us because they they continued Christ's instructions so we must continue in the instructions from their epistles not just from the gospel accounts because not everything that Jesus taught was recalled right so second Thessalonians 2 16 Jesus gave the gave us an everlasting consolation and a good hope through grace revelation 1 5 Jesus washed us of our sins in his own blood Romans 5 8 God sent his son to die for us while we were yet sinners so I mean you've got John 3 16 God sent his son that we can have everlasting life if we believe in him Galatians 5 6 as Paul explained in Galatians works of the law does not avail our righteousness but rather faith which works by love because it's according to God's love for us it's not faith which works love rather it's it's faith which works by love right important that you understand the difference there and 1 John 4 19 he first love does the only reason that you love God at all is because he first loved you and that that's a very important foundational principle and so once again just like with the disciples we see how God the father and the son loved us so we must continue in that in that very love so salvation or justification on to righteousness is entirely because of God's love for us not not because of our love for God and if we have any love for God it is solely because he first loved us so if we start saying things like well the Bible says to love the Lord with all your heart soul and strength and this is what you have to do for eternal life like law or if we say that Jesus is only going to accept those who clean up their life first and surrender everything well we're in danger of not continuing in his love because his love is that we are justified by his love not our love for him right and we have to believe on the sun if we want everlasting life and consolation and hope and a later verse in in John 3 explained explains that if we do not believe it's because we have not believed and so if we're continuing in anything it's our belief it's our faith so that's why John talks about in his first epistle let that abide in you which you have heard from the beginning and if that which you have heard shall remain in you then you shall continue in the sun and Paul says in Timothy you know continue in the doctrine so in doing this you shall both save yourself and those that hear you and that in Colossians he says continue in the faith grounded and settled and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel so that's how we continue in the love that he has for us so if you if you discontinue the faith or you cast off your faith as described in 1 Timothy 5 to 12 and then you're not continuing in his love because his love requires that you believe on him and also as well there are specific instructions and principles and foundations associated with eternal life and forgiveness of sins that we are washed by his blood and we have to believe on him so if we start saying things like repent of your sins or surrender your life to Christ to be saved or obey his commandments to be saved well then we're starting to change the actual requirements and principles as to how salvation is applied and worked and you know people who deny the blood you may be familiar with the John MacArthur blood controversy where he essentially downplayed the importance of Christ's blood but you know that it's just symbolic of his death but no there's a very important foundation here that he's actually washed us from our sins in his blood so that's a part of what the love that he has for us that we have to continue in if you start saying stuff like this you're in danger of not continuing in his love so concluding the continuing in his love then we we see that although salvation or eternal life is maybe not the main intended point of what Jesus is saying per se it would be pretty difficult to acknowledge that it's not to acknowledge that it's at least a subset of what Jesus is saying so following our previous study of John 14 we saw how keeping his commandments in this context is not about whether an individual Christian is pulling his weight or you know turning from all of their sins because that that's not what Jesus is talking about in this conversation and that's not how the disciples necessarily interpreted it either which we will look at soon so what is fundamental here is that the disciples carry on laying the foundations that Christ himself has laid and remaining on those same foundations crucially remembering the words what Christ taught them and continuing in the knowledge and the faith in the love that Jesus has for them and what he did for them and not departing from what Christ established even when persecution will come because they preach his testimony and as for joy that the disciples aren't specifically commanded to abide or remain in my joy rather it is stated that so long as they abide in him and continue in his love and keep his commandments if Jesus will give them eternal life and answer their petitions then they shall have joy despite the persecution that Jesus is going to warn them about later in this conversation and when we think of continuing in his love we see how it hangs on his words because in order to understand how God has loved us we needed to look at what the bible or the words told us right so although we could you know debate and discuss the specifics about differentiating between continuing in the joy or the love of the words they're a part of a package deal it he doesn't really make sense to separate them all out here and they are within the same passage of verses so they're more interchangeable than say something like walking in the light or walking in the spirit where they're two different authors talking in two different letters about two very different things so from the disciples point of view some of the things Jesus says are more imminent because he is about to leave them and they may be discouraged by this you may remember when I did the study video on John 14 I talked about the four C's of John 14 16 so confidence although that word isn't used verbatim the disciples have faith in Christ but it's not a fully confident faith full assurance in Christ has not been realised Jesus needs to solidify their confidence in who he is and what he will accomplish right and then continue continue in or abide in the truth the foundation that Christ has laid do not drift away from this truth remain in this truth never depart from it and do not be discouraged from it and then comfort Christ will depart and will ascend into heaven we cannot see him now but in his place he will send the Holy Spirit to be a comforter the disciples and believers will will need this comfort if they are to continue in Christ have have confidence in Christ and keep his commandments and that's the the final word there remember what Christ has taught and continue to teach it and to practice it and as brethren love one another as Christ has loved you so let's just look through the these four seasons so starting with the confidence that remember that the disciples didn't fully grasp what they already heard Jesus say multiple times before so they really need to come to terms with these things in the time when for when Christ departs right so as we saw from the previous video in John 14 9 Philip failed to grasp that by seeing Jesus he has already seen the Father and Jesus has explained that he's in the Father several times before in John's Gospel so Philip needs to remember this and hold on to this so that he's not he's not found wanting for something that he has already received really and then we fast forward to John 16 24 Jesus points out that the disciples are sorrowful so perhaps they were discouraged knowing what Jesus is about to go and do and as he explained to them in John 13 but by seeing them again they will be full of joy so Jesus must go through and complete his death burial and resurrection this is a process that he must go through for the disciples to fully realize this and then also in John 14 and we can also pick this up in John 20 as well is that Thomas didn't understand where Jesus was going again after Jesus has already explained it to him and based on the next verse you know he should already know the answer and as we know from later in the story then Thomas would be the doubter that didn't believe straight away so Jesus had to help him solidify his belief and if you were to look at confidence from a purely salvific perspective John himself picks up on this same theme and ties it in with abiding in Christ so he says in his first epistle in chapter two now little children abide in him that when he shall appear we may have confidence so just as Christ told John to abide in him and his love and to have Christ's words remain in him John likewise tells us in his epistle to abide in Christ with the very goal that when Christ comes we can have a full confidence in his coming and then later in the same epistle in chapter five John then goes on to explain that we may know that we have eternal life and following this we can have confidence that he hears us according to what we ask. 1 John 15 14 also leads us actually on to the non-salvific aspects of John 15 that we can also have confidence that God will hear us according to what we ask when we petition him so just as in John 15 he says abiding me in my words in you that you shall ask what you will and it shall be done unto you and so likewise in John's epistle you know he's saying the same thing this is the confidence that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us and confidence towards God that whatsoever we ask we shall receive of him. So that was the confidence what about the comfort so we've just seen how the disciples were sorrowful and even when Christ will appear on to them again to give them joy but they will need comfort after this as well especially when they're being persecuted and Christ will no longer be with them so Jesus warns them later in John 15 that Jesus was persecuted because of his sayings and if disciples are abiding his word then of course they will be persecuted as well and so the Holy Spirit will be sent to comfort them and to aid them as a witness and he shall guide the disciples into all truth and bring things to their remembrance that have been taught to them before this conversation so that then they can pass on Christ's teachings to us right so how can we abide in Christ's words unless the you know disciples preserve his words for us because if you think about it Jesus didn't write his own gospels and epistles and so you can kind of see why that the Holy Spirit needs to bring these things to their remembrance and then the the other sees so commandments and continue and I've these are sort of combined in a way I suppose the the final two sees because keeping his commandments is tied with abiding in him and to an extent these commandments we are continuing in so in our previous study of John 14 we we saw how people misappropriate this to be about you personally cleaning up your life and and turning from all of your sins but that's not fitting with the dialogue and conversation in this passage nor is it necessarily how the disciples themselves would have understood it and we did explore that in the last to do with John to a little to an extent but rather it has to do with remembering what Christ taught remembering who he is and so you know passing on these teachings remaining in that teaching and standing firm in standing firm to such truth so you know John 14 tied his commandments with his words he sings of course his teachings on sin are a part of this because we have to abide in what Jesus taught about those subjects right that their teachings of the teachings of the apostles or the disciples should not stray from the teachings that that Christ founded including his teaching about those sins so what we'll do is we'll explore how the just like we did last time we'll explore how the disciples themselves understood exactly what Jesus means in this in this conversation of John 13 to 16 so first let's look at how the disciple John picks up this theme of abiding in Christ and how he interpreted the commands in this regard and I'm kind of repeating what we looked at in the John 14 study here really but Jesus is telling John Jesus saying to John a new commandment I give on to you and so when John is saying to us in in his epistles he's saying things like this is his commandment he gave us commandment keep his commandments obviously that one there is plural in chapter five there in chapter three that that singular there but it's a lot of similar themes that John is picking up from what Jesus taught him and so just as Jesus is saying to John then that the commandment that Jesus gives him that you love one another as I have loved you and so John telling us what his commandment is again it's essentially repeating it love one another right and everyone that loves him loves him that is also begotten of him and so you can see how John is carrying that theme forward and then just as Jesus says by this all men shall know that you are my disciples if you have love to one another so there's the goal is that by loving one another the world or all men shall look at this and know that you know you are his disciples and so John also get kind of a bit different in what he says but very similar is that by this we know that we love the children of God when we love God and so you know loving one another has to do with making that known to other people that we love one another right and so that that that's again John is just interpreting those commandments is exactly as Jesus said it but what's interesting about what John says is he often precedes it saying we should believe on the name of his son Jesus Christ and whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God but that's not strictly what Jesus said exactly there but earlier in earlier in chapter 14 he did say things like you know believe that I am in the father and the father is in me and so John is emphasizing then if you want to be born of God this is how it starts believe on Jesus the Christ so it's you know perfectly consistent with you know whosoever believe a faith without works but then once you're safe so if you're if you're begotten of God because you believe Jesus well then therefore love one another and by that all men shall know and we shall know that you know we love the children of God you are my disciples that you love one another and so you see how John's carrying in those same themes into his epistles and then just to take some more example from his second epistle so again Jesus says a new commandment I give on to you we carry this forward and what's John saying to the recipient of that letter not as though I wrote a new commandment but that which we had from the beginning and we perhaps it's not always very clear who John means when he says we but if we take that to mean the disciples you know you could kind of link it back to this conversation right here and again that we love one another so he's repeating what that commandment was from this conversation yeah and so and then this is love so he defines this love that we walk after his commandments of which obviously one of them is is love one another and this is the commandment that you have heard from the beginning that you should walk in it so it's really just emphasizing that commandment that was always there from the beginning as far as John's concerned beginning in this conversation and then when Jesus was saying things like if a man loved me he will keep my words the word which I have spoken on to abiding me and I knew so what what are his words or his word you know he's teaching the things that he told John right what his words to John were and so how does John carry that forward well he warns us of these antichrists these deceivers and it's quite specific really but they don't confess that Jesus is coming the flesh and then whosoever transgresses abides not in the doctrine of Christ has not God so he that abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son and so what is the doctrine well doctrine is really another word for teaching it's his teachings well what did he teach well presumably his words the words that he gave to John that's what he's teaching John and so that's the doctrine that we're abiding in right that Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in him as you can sort of see have both Father and the Son and these antichrists which are the antithesis of this if you like they're the ones that deny Jesus and so notice how this has got nothing to do with sin like you personally turning from all your sins because that's not the kind of antichrist that John warns us about he warns us about people that deny that Jesus is coming the flesh that's the kind of person who was warning us about and so whereas Jesus said by this all men shall know that you are my disciples if you love one another so we then get to this troubling verse in verse 11 where John says if they come any on any on to you and bring not this doctrine don't receive him into your house don't bid him Godspeed and that that sounds like it's not loving right but it's you love one another so we are united in the doctrine of Christ who Christ is right I can't be united in fellowship or love with somebody who doesn't carry the doctrine of Christ right so the whole point is that those of us who do carry the doctrine were born of God we love one another okay that that's essentially what what's going on there and then if we go to uh John 15 and just wind back the uh to to 1 John 2 there 3 to 5 hereby we know that we know him you know if we keep his commandments he that says I know him and keeps not his commandments as a lie the truth is not in him and well you know what did you say if you keep my commandments you know you shall abide in my love even as I have kept the father's commandment right and so uh as Jesus said to John you are clean through the word if you abide in me my words shall abide in you um and then as as the father has loved me so have I loved you okay we've looked at that continue in my love abide in my love and so John is essentially saying the same thing I'll be in a slightly simpler way who so ever keeps his word in him the love of God is perfected okay and so when Jesus then says abide in me and I in you as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself except it's abide in the vine no more can you abide in me and so hereby know that we are in him right see how it's all to do with notice how all these commandments here right they're all to do with staying in the teachings of Christ staying in the love of Christ it's all grounded in who Christ is not what you can do for God it's it's grounded in you following and staying in the teachings of what God has done for you okay and so you see how when people make this all about you turning from you since they've completely misappropriated what's actually going on here because it's not the kind of thing that John's talking about when he talks about these commandments here and just fast forward just a few verses more you can see how this repetitive theme keeps coming up here you know he keeps repeating this no new commandment I give but an old commandment which he had from the beginning so John gave them the same commandment that that Jesus gave him in the beginning right the old commandment which you've heard from the beginning you know continue in those things and so you know he keeps repeating and emphasizing and referring back to this conversation there and again this repeat of this same thing you are cleaned through the word as Jesus said to John if you abide in me my word shall abide in you and so what's John saying to us the word of God abides in you and you you have overcome the wicked one all right so again people want to make this all about you on this constant sanctification journey of overcoming the wicked one or overcoming your sins it says you have overcome you've already overcome right the word of God abides in you and and this in a second that the audience that John is talking to there that's already in effect for them essentially the word of God already abides in you with Jesus it was if you do this then my words shall abide in you whereas this this audience his words you know they already abide in you as it seems you know I've written on to you fathers because you have known him from the beginning so his audience already knows who Christ is they already know the love of God and so really John is just re-emphasizing that teaching and reaffirming that teaching because it's important as a body of brethren that we keep reaffirming that teaching so that people continue in it because if we start to drift from that teaching you know other people are going to drift and eventually it's going to get to a point where people can't be saved anymore because we've drifted from the teaching that gets people saved all right and so just basically what I've just said you know I have not written on to you because you know not the truth but because you know the truth all right there's an established principle that John's audience already knows the truth and so his letter is written to you because you already know the truth and it's amazing how many people misappropriate that letter to be an instruction on how to be saved when really it's written because you are the established principle you already know the truth right and just as Jesus warned us if a man doesn't abide in me is cast forth who is the type of person that John warns is about well it's the person who denies the son right that's the kind of Antichrist that he's warning us about he's not warning us about you know because people always make it out as if a lot of people say that John was trying to warn the church about the nostics and they believe all this stuff about sin but John isn't warning us about somebody who believes the right stuff but just keeps going off and sitting all right he's warning us about people who deny who Jesus is that's what this is all founded on okay and so again Jesus says to John the father has loved me so I have loved you continue in my love and so what's John telling us to do he that acknowledges that the son has the father right that you know that they just they both go together the love of the son the love of the father they both go together acknowledge that and again abide let that therefore abide in you which you have heard from the beginning yeah all of this stuff right here may that remain in you you shall also continue in the son right it's all continuing in the teaching continuing in the doctrine continuing in who Christ is because that's how the gospel is founded on that's the kind of thing that he's telling us to continue in this is the kind of thing that he's telling us to define the commandments that were supposed to keep and so you see then that you know there's a very interesting parallel here then isn't there because just like Jesus did in John 14 and 15 John also ties in the keeping of the commandments with the words of Jesus and continuing in him continuing in his words who he is you know being the son that is in the father it's not really about your personal obedience in sin issues or doing of general works which is what many false prophets will try and misappropriate it to be about but again the problem is John's letter didn't warn us about these types of people he warned us about people who deny Christ now please don't suspect that I'm hiding something from me because obviously John does talk about sin in his first epistle and loving that you know not loving the things of the world in chapter 2 but really though he's very brief about those things it is not really emphasizing them as the actual requirements to continuing Christ the abiding is the continuing in the love of Christ and the words of Christ and who Christ is in the son of the father okay because that that's who the antichrist are who are they it's those that believe who don't believe that you know in Christ it's not those who believe on Christ but continuing in willful sin right they're denying a fundamental truth about who Christ is and what he did such as that he came in the flesh and so obviously yeah he does talk about sin but it's not like he goes into long lists of kinds of sins and sins in the flesh but hopefully once I've finished my study on John's gospel we can start to move on to his epistles because although that doesn't come to a lot later in the Bible I think it would be good to cover it quite early in the series because it's quite a difficult book his first epistle particularly and here's another interesting one okay so just again as Jesus says if a man doesn't abide in me he's cast forth as a branch his withered men gather them cast them into the fire John describes people who you know departed from them went out from us these kinds of antichrist that he was warning us about they went out from us so just as you know these branches that were cast off were one's part of the vine right so you know we were part of the vine they were part of the vine but but they were cast out from us right but then he says they were not of us though because why why does he say that well if they had been of us so if they really were they went out from us but if they had been of us they would have no doubt and this is going to be very important actually for understanding John 15 in the light of eternal security they would have no doubt have continued with us right so if they were really of us if they were really really truly of us they would have no doubt without any doubt continued right so if we apply a true Christian if you're a true person and you're truly a you know brethren of John you would have no doubt continued with him and on us right but what's the catch what's the but here they went out that it that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us right because you might wonder why why go out from it if they're not of us why go out from us why just not be on the outside in the first place that's a good question right because it needs to be made manifest that they were not of us and that and that's kind of really what is going on in John 15 and we'll maybe talk a little bit more about that later in the study you know when we get a bit more into the fruit and things like that but this is quite key here that it's made manifest it's made known that we can look at that and we can see that yes they were not of us we can see and observe that happening right that's kind of what's going on there and so John teaches us then something else that's very important about John 15 in the branches that don't continue abide so as I mentioned much earlier in the study John 14 doesn't support conditional security for the reasons I've provided and coupling it with one John actually really disproves and destroys the conditional security doctrine because who are they who went out from us but they were not of us who are they it wasn't people who were just sinning too much because he was warning people about the antichrists okay that that's what led up to that that statement there what were the characteristics of these antichrists that were never of us well they denied that Jesus Christ is he's come in the flesh right or that he is the Christ chapter two and four he warns us about it twice right and so how can we then say they were saved but then did not abide and were cut off the vine and so lost their salvation how can we say that well the simple answer is we can't right because if these antichrists denied that Jesus is the Christ how could they possibly be saved in the first place they couldn't right because one has to believe in Christ to be saved right that's how that works but you know that that's why John says they were not of us nevertheless they went out from us right which would make no sense if there weren't other branch you know if there weren't among other branches that that do continue in the vine so they were not of us but they went out from us if they were of us they would have no doubt continued with us but they did not continue right so they didn't meet the no doubt criteria there why they went out from us so that it might be made manifest right really simple not that's really not complicated to understand at all and so this is consistent with the illustration in John 15 because if you think about it we've got this growing fruit on this vine right fruit takes time to grow right we don't know what branches will or produce it will or will not produce fruit straight away it takes time for these branches to manifest as we saw earlier in the study really you know it this is it's not really a rapid process this this is a slow process if anything so enough about John then what about Peter does does he give any indication as to how he would have interpreted it well with the other disciples it's it's maybe not as clear if or how they picked up the themes from John 14 and 15 and so considering this question it may be a bit more subject to conjecture and assumptions and you know maybe my opinion right I suspect that though second Peter particularly chapter two may make reference to John 14 and 15 because there are some similar themes right so let me show you this towards the latter half of chapter two Peter talks about this for it had been better to for that for them not to have known the the way of righteousness than after if they had known it to turn from the holy commandment delivered on to them right and you know Jesus is talking about my commandments over here we're saying if you keep my commandments and then in the next chapter Peter then says to be mindful of the words and again Jesus is talking about my words my sayings continue in them right which was spoken of and of the commandment of the of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior and it's it's not really very clear from his epistle exactly what the commandment is or the holy commandment but as it as he says that the words that were spoken of before and the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior so you know the apostles are carrying forward the commands of the Lord and Savior right and there's possibly a good link to this chapter right here that he may well be referring to that so just as uh Jesus was saying to Peter and John if a man if a man doesn't abide in me he's cast forth as a branch right casting to the fire you know the verse by now um you know we had John warning is about the antichrist right and that's kind of carried forward into the these people that Peter's warning is about these false prophets denying the Lord that bought them right now again people take 2nd Peter chapter two as one of these you can lose your salvation versus but there were false prophets among the people there shall be among you denying the Lord that bought them so so how were they ever saved and they're about to lose the salvation if they deny the Lord it doesn't make any sense does it well why are these false prophets then if they deny the Lord why why be false prophets among the people at all bringing in these damn heresies why not just stay at home they went out from us as John says but they were not of us right this is also it can be made manifest right so all that we can identify that we can see that and it will be made known before us and then elsewhere in Peter's epistle so the kind of antithesis to these false prophets if you like or the the medicine or the solution to these false prophets that he's warning us about again just as Jesus was telling us to abide in him and his words and his saying so that we don't get cut off Peter's telling us you know to protect us against these false prophets and these false doctrines have these things always in remembrance okay the way of remembrance the commandment of our of us the apostles of the Lord and the Savior so he keeps emphasizing this remembering what you've been taught remember what's being commanded remember the words remember the sayings so you see how Peter's just re-emphasizing and bringing it back to what did Jesus teach us the apostles what are we teaching you and hear you remember what we've taught you remember these commandments remember these sayings keep these things in remembrance and we read in you know this conversation in John the Holy Spirit will bring things into Peter's remembrance yeah and so that was uh John and Peter what about Jude did Jude pick up any of these themes and this is that the Judas that's not Iscariot okay I believe as far as I know they are supposedly written by uh that you know he wrote the book right it's not a different Jude um so with Jude it's even less clear than Peter if he is really referring back to this conversation he because he doesn't use similar terminology like love one another or you know the commandments or whatever but his book though is very similar to 2nd Peter chapter 2 that we've just seen and so he echoes some of the same themes as Peter and so there could be a connection to John 14 15 sort of by extension if you like so again Jesus saying to Peter John Jude abiding me or you know if he doesn't abide his cast forth in burning the fire John was saying to us they went out from us they were not of us who's a lie but he that denies the Christ Peter warned us there's false prophets who are bringing these heresies what's Jude say well again a very repetitive theme here for there are certain men crept in unawares who were before evolved ordained to this condemnation ungodly men uh turning the grace of God into the severessness and right and denying the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ so again it's this consistent theme here who are these people who are the antithesis of believers the opposite of us the opposite of the disciples the opposite of those who love one another they deny the Lord right this is very foundational to the kinds of people that they're warning us and again excuse me for repeating myself but again Jesus saying to Peter and and Jude my words my sayings keeping them abiding my words abiding me Peter saying keep these things in remembrance Jude is saying the same thing I will therefore put you in remembrance though you once knew this right once knew that you once knew this so something that you learn in the past something that Jude or somebody else taught his recipients in the past put you in remembrance of that thing I taught you from the very beginning so again it's just keeping the doctrine keeping the teachings don't forget this teaching right and you can see how important is for the gospel right whosoever believeth in him and 2000 years later everyone's saying repent of your sins or surrender your life to Christ somehow in 2000 years we've forgotten the teachings of Jesus right remember what Christ taught yeah I won't look at Paul only because he wasn't present at the the John 13 to 16 conversation and so last but not least then what about James now like Peter and Jude it's not so explicit that James picked up some of the same same themes from John I do find small tidbits of considerable similarity but but looking at it from quite a different angle though from John Judo or Peter right so in the case of James this might be a bit of a stretch but remember that Jesus said my father is the husband man right so he uses that analogy that the husband man is what he's talking about there James actually says something similar in James 5 7 to 9 he uses that that same word be patient therefore the coming of the Lord behold the husband man so this husband man what's he waiting for he's waiting for the precious fruit of the earth and has long patience for it until he receives the early and latter reign so here we've got the father is the husband man but he's is you know waiting for these branches to grow he's purging branches so that they can grow more fruits we've got this gradual process of growing fruit over here the husband man is waiting for the fruit and the time is coming when he's going to receive it right and that's going to tie in with the coming of the Lord and so what's James saying to us he's saying be patient establish your hearts the coming of the Lord is near right and the Jesus saying abide yeah so again continue be patient you know don't lose heart or don't drift from these teachings just because it seems like it's not going to happen or something grudge not against one another brethren lest ye be condemned behold the judge stands before the door and James really the whole book a lot of it is about brethren to brethren love and what's John what's John 15 saying that you love one another as I have loved you and so James maybe not as obvious but you can certainly see a similarity there that you know again he may just be reflecting back on those teachings and carrying it forward to us and you know he just keeps they're all telling us the same thing continue abide remember what you were first thought remember what you have heard right and love one another and you know don't grudge against one another it's just it's just the same theme being repeated and this seems to be how the disciples understood that conversation right so with all that said and done then I hope you will agree with me that the disciples have given us more of a clear picture then of what exactly it means to be in the true vine and how we abide in the true vine and we see how what they say is really very very consistent with how Jesus described this illustration so we you know we've got the vine in the fruit so just as a vine would carry water and nutrition to the branches Christ gave us his words right Christ told us to follow his commandments abiding him that his words abide in us Peter told us to remember what what we have heard right remember what we were commanded John told us again that which you have heard to let that abide in you and if you do this you shall also continue well you might do if you don't know you shall continue in the sun and the father no exceptions from the conditional thought there's no exceptions here just believe the bible when it says it and the promise that he has promised us even eternal life it's a promise you shall continue if you know if that abides what you heard the testimony of Christ the gospel right if you heard that and you remember it and that stays in you that remains you shall continue in the sun and that promise is waiting for you for eternal life right so this is all encouraging language and Jude also puts us in remembrance it's just it's all so consistent it's all tying together now if if a branch will not produce fruit then what what is happening essentially is is it's not benefiting from the nutrition and the water that's given to it right and so really it's it's a waste to the rest of the vine and it encumbers it for no valid reason right so likewise somebody who does not continue in Christ's words you know they go off and believe some weird heresy or they stop believing the gospel and we'll look at a couple of examples later what what's essentially happening there then is that Christ's words are no good for that person his words completely unprofitable to them right so just as a vine if a branch is not growing fruit fruit what's the point in the vine giving it water what's the point in the vine giving it nutrition that could go to some other vine in a branch that is fruitful right it's no good well this person who's not going to abide not you know Christ's words are not doing him any favors right and so ultimately they are cut off they're cast into the fire because if Christ's words do not profit them anything how shall they enter into life because after all Christ's words are essential to eternal life right you know he says my words are like etc and so because we have that understanding now then perhaps it makes sense to look at the journeys of the branches why some branches abide and others do not because that's a good question right how was the branch in Christ in the first place I mean if they went out from among us because they were never of us you know what what does this even mean that that is a good question right it's an important question and when one branch abides and another does not and is cut off how is this manifest how is that made known how can we look at that and observe that and see that and know that that happened and you might also ask as well another question is why does this seem to be a journey or a gradual process if eternal life is an entrance right because as I said earlier eternal life is not itself the primary purpose of the passage but it is certainly an important application and definitely a subset of what Jesus is talking about but before we can understand the journey of the branches let's study what the fruit is first because if we can understand what the fruit represents we know then what the end result is and so we can understand what the branches are supposed to be heading towards like what the finish line is or what the goal is you know we can maybe understand that more so uh so what are the fruit and the branches supposed to reproduce them well it's somewhat questionable because what what exactly the fruit are from the context of John 15 itself it is not really that very clear verse 16 is perhaps the closest thing we we have to understanding what the fruit is exactly but it's still unclear though so what happens is especially you know the works crowd right the mistake that people make is to automatically assume that fruit means works they just make that assumption without thinking about it or questioning it so they just make that conclusion now there are definitely a couple or at least a handful of passages in the bible where you might argue this understanding right then you know that and they'll point to the commandments in this chapter obviously in John 15 but it doesn't really make sense when you think about it and especially with other examples of fruit as well first of all if we just look at the illustration that we're actually studying because we're not we're not studying all of the passages about fruit here right we're studying John 15 we we already saw that the father does the work in this chapter right now you can go to all these chapters about fruit arises but but in this chapter the father does the work that's what's going on right on the branches the branches either produce fruit or they don't it's just that simple now this this will take time to manifest if anything really here fruit is the product of work rather than the work itself because the husband man does the work he's doing the work on the vine and as long as the conditions are favorable and he's a good husband man and of course we don't want to accuse god of not being a good husband man obviously then the fruit will grow as a result of his work right but but we are not the husband man in this illustration the father god is okay so in essence just you know for those of you that like a picture illustration right the father is doing the work he's the husband man fruit is the product of work that's the desired outcome as a result of his labor and as long as the conditions outside the vine are favorable and there's nothing wrong with the vine itself the vine should produce work that's what the father is waiting for with patience as James says it's the desired outcome of doing this work right now we could sort of stretch it and say well what what does fruit represent in the bible elsewhere right just you know just to make that cross reference if john 15 doesn't exactly explain what it is could we just look at fruit every other time in the bible it's used well the problem is fruit has many different applications in the bible because it's just such a widely used analogy and obviously in an agrarian society that would have meant a lot more to people whereas you know now you might use an office illustration but that perhaps doesn't apply to as many people though so what you have to understand is that fruit might mean a completely different thing in one passage than another so yes it might mean works in one passage that doesn't mean it does in another though right so i'm not going to read all these verses but you can see them on the screen um and you know it's there for you to see so john four seems like the most logical place to start because it happened earlier in this same gospel account and so to some extent you could argue that john has set us up for chapter 15 already and in this passage if you just read the passage the fruit is life eternal right but in that passage though it does have more to do with getting other people saved by doing the work in the fields that are white and ready to harvest rather than your own salvation and in some cases one person reaps what you know another person's work so obviously we can't apply that to our own salvation really because you know even if the work i mean you're not saved by works but even if you were obviously your work would only help yourself anyway wouldn't help somebody else right at least not what most christians believe i know you know there's we had doctrines about this and that and the other but we won't get into those so if we were to apply that to john 15 we would say that the fruit is life eternal and of course jesus chose his disciples why that they should go and bear fruit right and preaching the gospel was one of their most important tasks particularly in acts 15 and so you can definitely make that connection there with the disciples bearing that fruit gathering that fruit and that's the fruit that the father is looking for although that that doesn't really answer the point that the father is doing the work though the disciples aren't really doing the work in john 15 exactly and uh elsewhere in john's gospel um jesus also referenced fruit in chapter 12 briefly pointing to his death saying that he must go through his death so that he can bring forth fruit right now again obviously he didn't strict strictly define in john chapter 12 but seeing as it's about him going to his death obviously that would most likely seem a reference to the people that would be saved through his death right since that was the purpose of him doing so and so through his death to take on the sins of many god was able to redeem the people back onto himself and and paul seems to interpret it the same way according to roman seven where fruit on to god is the opposite of fruit on to death right uh you know by the body of christ and so uh you know again christ is getting people saved he's getting the maternal life by what he's going to do that's how he seems to be defining the fruit and uh jude describes a certain type of evil people in jude one who are twice dead which kind of gives an indication that uh there's no salvation sort of you know possible whatsoever with these people um that's another story but as being trees whose fruit either withers dies or is entirely without fruit or the tree is plucked all together right so this this is definitely a bad tree but the tree itself is the problem not the branches on the tree the tree itself is the fundamental problem and so given that he likens such a tree to being twice dead it looks as if a lack of fruit or dying fruit indicates an unhealthy tree and salvifically is not saved right and so this once again justifies that the fruit is being eternal life because a good tree would produce that that fruit right and then if we were just to go back to james five we we already looked at this few slides ago when we considered james picking up this same theme using the same metaphor of a husband man referring to the lord so the husband man is waiting for precious fruit of the earth with long patience and the context here suggests that the husband man eventually decides that when he's received you know fruit at the coming of the lord so from our point of view this this is probably when you know our gospel assignment ends I suppose um so in this context fruit is most likely referring to believers that the husband man is waiting for because um you know remember earlier fruit takes time to grow and it only grows in season right so this is synonymous with eternal life those were saved and adopted into the family of god with an everlasting inheritance and although god knows the end from the beginning remember that from our frame of reference some of the elect haven't been born in the spirit or even in the flesh yet right so I mean unless the lord comes tomorrow you know there are some people due to be saved there are some people who are going to believe in the gospel in 20 or 30 years time who haven't even been born yet either physically or spiritually right and so you know it's all got to wait for that that that time right when when the lord's finally received all his precious fruit um in Colossians now Paul's interpretations could be a bit of a red herring because he wasn't present in the conversation in in john 14 to 15 but nevertheless uh here's another example in Colossians where he interprets the fruit being brought forth such that the gospel revealed the grace of god in truth to the Colossian recipients and so we assume that they got eternal life that that hope laid in heaven right so again seems to be tying in the fruit with everlasting life and sometimes uh in the epistles we see this concept of um fruit or fruits of righteousness and when we look at those they do sometimes look like they're a bit more works orientated or that your works do contribute to some of that fruit sometimes at least however for the very same reason that these fruits are perhaps grown by our own works that that's why they have a specific name right these are very specifically in all these passages that I've cited here they're referred to as fruits of righteousness or if you look at the Corinthians example very specific fruits of your righteousness right so if if that's fruits of your righteousness and obviously you cannot get eternal life by your own righteousness because we know that salvation and justification onto life is without works and so to me it's no accident that when these fruit do seem to relate to work so at least look like they're about works they're not just called fruit full stop they have a specific name fruit of righteousness because remember other passages about fruit don't have those two words tacked on the end there right in John 15 it doesn't say abide in me so that you know you'll bring forth fruits of righteousness it's just bring forth fruit right here we have a specific name unlike the fruit in John 15 and of course I couldn't possibly mention this subject without mentioning the fruit of the spirit right um of course we have the fruit of the spirit which looks which like the fruit of righteousness appears to look like it's a bit more works orientated now that's debatable you could make the case that it's the spirit that produces the fruit rather than believer in a manner of speaking but you know I'm not going to get into that in this study but like the fruit of righteousness if we are going to say that that is about works right well once again this fruit has a very specific name it's fruit of the spirit it's not just fruit full stop unlike the fruit in John 15 which doesn't have a specific name okay hope you can recognize the point then trying to get across here and obviously we couldn't possibly talk about the meaning of fruit in the Bible without considering Jesus various saints and parables but parables that the only problem with parables is that they do present as a problem of being a bit more open to interpretation right now we earlier considered the parable of the fruitless victory we already looked at that earlier in the study and this was given one more chance that it might produce fruit right so again gradual process it's not necessarily manifest straight away there are some examples of fruit which what I'm going to I'm not going to consider these in this study and because I'll explain why I mean the fruit of the vine that is only in reference to Jesus no longer drinking of the vine before wine for his death I don't think that sounds very relevant to our study of John 15 to be honest now this is a tricky one because the fruit's worthy of repentance that John the Baptist preached about in Luke 3 because although logically you would think that sounds quite important to our study it's a little bit awkward to define because John does go on to talk about works a few verses later and so people will interpret that to mean you know like works worthy of repentance but within the verses themselves the fruits refer to telling Jews not to use their fleshly lineage to Abraham I mean I'm paraphrasing obviously it doesn't say this literally but you know justification onto righteousness you know do not do not think to say within yourselves we have Abraham our father for God is able to raise these stones right so some people will then take the verse itself and say that the fruit is faith others will take the the later verse about works and make them our work so that's a little bit awkward to define so but again if you are going to say his works well that fruit again has a very specific name though it's fruits of repentance it's not just fruitful stop right and then we have the fig tree that Jesus cursed because he cursed the tree before it could produce fruit in the appropriate season so it again it might not be entirely relevant to our study in John 15 because that tree didn't even have a chance to grow fruit right so I don't some people might disagree with me about not cross-referencing those with John 15 but you know they are my reasons really um you know I don't really think it's very helpful for defining the fruit in John 15 for those reasons but there are some parables and things that Jesus said in the gospels that are worth which should worth looking at for this study so when looking at Jesus parables sometimes the meaning of fruit is less clear because you know as we said in the previous slide a parable could be open to interpretation and really the parables are there to illustrate another point rather than being central doctrinal statements in of themselves right so if we look at this parable the parable of the vineyard vineyard prior to this parable we have the story of the two sons they they had to work in in a vineyard so one might think that this has works connotations but actually because a parable is there to illustrate the main point rather than reinterpreting the main point because the parable the parable illustrated that the publicans and harlots sinners believed in John the Baptist preaching whereas the Pharisees and many of the Jews did not now the fruit in this parable is maybe not as central to the parable because that the fruit is not the purpose or the outcome of the parable where it is kind of the outcome in John 15 though but the fruit represents their willingness or lack of thereof of God's supposed people quote unquote to to accept or follow their own promised messiah that was sent to them so kind of helpful but you know the fruit aren't the outcome here though it's used in a slightly different way here and then there's obviously and a lot of people will be thinking of this one is that the the good tree that produces good fruit and the evil tree brings forth evil fruit well in this case the evil tree still brings forth fruit okay but many people misappropriate the good tree and the bad tree to be all about christian's works but that's a misappropriation because it refers to false prophets it's quite specific and immediately before verse 15 Jesus talked about the narrow way that leads on to life and immediately after verse 20 talks about you know not everyone that says unto me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven and so the fruit here arguably refers to eternal life or you could maybe say it's the doctrine and what they speak although it could just be the product of false prophets in general with eternal life being only one of their evil fruits that they don't you know produce nothing but evil but in any case you know they cannot get people saved if they have a false gospel right and so you can see why it's sandwiched between two kind of eternal life things there and this is maybe not appropriate for interpreting the fruit in John 15 though because in John 15 all branches are attached to the same vine and the opposite of the branches that produce fruit is the branches that don't produce any fruit rather than producing evil fruit whereas in Matthew 7 they actually belong to different trees but there is an important it's kind of a red herring but although I haven't got it in the notes here just something verbal to add is that that is still an important fundamental point though is that if the if the fruit is bad or if the fruit is non-existent the problem is with the tree it's not the fruit the problem is with the tree right the tree is either good or the tree is bad and so you know if there's no if there's no fruit the problem is there's a problem with the branch okay it's not just it went lazy after being a good branch that it's fundamentally not a good branch essentially I think the parable of the sower is probably one of the best parables that Jesus gave to help give us a broader understanding of John 15 because although Jesus is actually using a slightly different illustration in this parable you know it's not it's not branches on the vine it's very similar in what it attempts to illustrate I believe so Jesus will later explain to his disciples that the seed represents the the word of God right in this the sower parable and we've now seen in John 15 how important Jesus's words are to abiding in John 15 right we have a distinction here between seeds that grow fruit and seeds that don't just as we have the branches that do and don't in John 15 and like John 15 this parable is also used to teach conditional security particularly because of a later verse which we'll look at momentarily so in conclusion there's a lot of similarities because this parable actually explains a very similar point the key difference between this parable and John 15 other than the illustration is the intended audience though because the audience of this parable are arguably spiritually blinded while the disciples in John 15 are not spiritually blinded right so that there's similarities and there are differences as well so let's look at how Jesus defined these types of seeds in the parable and so now now please understand this the seed is the word of God now this is where we start and this is what the sowers are spreading in the field the word of God and you can liken this to preaching the gospel if you like specifically preaching God's word in a general sense to the masses right so that that's very important that you understand that the seed is the word of God so even though the seed is the word of God in verse 11 in the following verses the landing points of the seed describe the people that hear the word of God so this is happening what's happening here is that the word of God is going to land in four different types of places or you might say four different types of people right in the parable three quarters of recipient I mean this is not even statistical anyway but you know with the amount of people that get saved but three quarters of recipients do not benefit from the word of God to any useful degree right only a quarter of the seed is actually successful and in reality you know the amount of people who get saved it's far less than a quarter but in this illustration it's a quarter and that's a minority anyway so the first type of seed doesn't produce any fruit or at least it doesn't say that it produced fruit it's not evident that they produce fruit they fall by the wayside and so hearing the word of God is no profit to them to the point where they're unable to even believe and be saved really and this is important because the ending of this verse tells us that this parable is about faith onto salvation as a result of the word of God right because that you know if this if this terrible thing that had happened to the seed hadn't happened they should believe and be saved but this all happened the last day right and so you know the end goal is that they should believe and be saved that's the outcome of a successful seed right so this first type of seed has heard the word of God but this word hasn't profited them onto belief or salvation because of the work that the devil has done in them right you can liken that if you like to you know these god hating atheists or the reprobates if you like you know just pick somebody so the second type of seed falls on a hard place and this is interesting because to some extent there was a good solid foundation to where they landed right because you know other parts of the bible define god as you know the solid hard rock the foundation you know that that stone the cornerstone so in one manner of speaking when you compare scripture with scripture it sounds like a good place to land right somewhere hard somewhere good foundation right but then you might say in a way the rock was too hard for them which makes sense because math use account tells us that they were offended quote unquote right and so now this is the seed that's used as justification for conditional security because it does say we can't deny what it says that they did believe for a while right and fall away in town of temptation presumably then if that if they did believe for a while that's what they fall away from they fall away from believing but the trouble is though if you're going to say that they were saved and lost salvation well it's not really evident that the seed ever actually produced fruit any fruit okay so because remember that conditional security advocates say that we have to have fruit to be saved so how was it ever saved if it didn't grow any fruit right and if you say well they believe for a while well the thing is we have discussed this before earlier in the series in other study videos I've done there are concepts in the bible such as believed in vain 1 Corinthians 15 a pointless belief a belief that doesn't amount to anything it was vain it was pointless why bother or we've got this concept such as Jesus knew from the beginning who believe not in John chapter 6 right so there is disciples that won't know more with him Jesus already knows those that are going to fall away he already knows those that don't believe and John also told us earlier in his gospel he who does not believe has not believed so if they believe for a while and don't believe now John 3 John 3 18 would force them in the category of has not believed so once again it's not evident that this seed ever produced any fruit and so they believed for a while sure but but the word of God wasn't really profitable though they didn't continue in that word and as with the first seed that the problem is with their belief not their works right and there's more I could say on that but you know that this pass obviously this passage really needs its own study so I'm not going to delve into it too deeply here the third type of seed is a bit different to the first two in so far as someone will actually make this more about works than faith again used to justify conditional security but but here's what's interesting about this seed right the seed that falls in the thorns the spiky places belief is not mentioned so we have no sure fire way of knowing that this seed ever even believed for a while let alone got saved I mean at least we know this seed believe for a while this seed we don't know that right we don't know that they believed we don't know that they got saved we haven't got that information right not only did it not grow fruit as the first seeds presumably it's the only one of the bad seeds where Jesus actually makes a point of saying that it didn't to bring forth any fruit to perfection or completion right and so again if we have to have work fruit to be saved while it didn't produce any fruit to perfection it didn't complete any fruit okay it might have grown tiny bit of fruit but it never brought to completion nothing was ever ready and so lastly than the fourth type of seed it's the only one that we can say with any certainty any absolute proof and certainty that it did produce fruit it even says with patience it brought fruit with patience right remember what we looked at earlier in James patience right keep your patience and so notice that they have a very different heart than that of the other seeds because the other seeds doesn't really mention their heart but they they had a good and honest heart so there's a fundamental difference between this type of people in the root of who they actually are right and so their reception and attentiveness is somewhat different their mindset is different their whole attitude towards the word of God is different because they have a good heart and they're honest right and so they heard the word and they keep the word so they are the people that do continue in this word right and they bring forth fruit with patience and so this is important not only did they hear the word but they keep it and a result of them keeping it they bring with patience fruit right if we consider this type of seed to be the polar opposite of the other three types of seeds we can easily define this fruit as salvation because unlike the first type of seed the fourth type must have believed and got saved right unlike the second type of seed they didn't believe for a while they must have believed continually and indefinitely right and unlike the third type of seed it produced fruit why because it kept the words right and so this is you can see how similar this is to John 15 then can't you and so so when we you know wrap that all up then we see in conclusion why it's really inappropriate to classify the fruit in John 15 as doing works for for several reasons when fruit does represent works or at least when it's obvious it represents works it has a particular name given to it fruit of the spirit fruit of righteousness or you know fruit worthy of repentance if you want to include that one it doesn't just go unnamed like the fruit in John 15 John's gospel sets us up for it chapter 15 with fruit in chapter 4 and 12 referring to people getting saved onto eternal life whether that's by the you know Jesus saving an individual or you getting other people saved through the gospel the parable about fruit that has most in common and most closely aligns with the subject matter of John 15 is the parable of the sower and in that parable the fruit represents eternal life among other things because unlike the other types of seed the word of God was only a benefit to one type of seed so what and once again Jesus is not talking about sins of the flesh or the diet you know diverse obedient works of the believer in John 13 to 16 right it's very specific some of the things that Jesus is talking about and so what exactly is through them well based on what we've seen it's certainly eternal life related right but there is a certain ambiguity as to whether it refers to one's only eternal life or getting other people saved onto eternal life well we can to some extent take both of these applications in John 15 because Jesus is talking to the disciples collectively love one another and refers to individuals he who does or does not and so the end result of continuing in the word the doctrines who christ is is one's own everlasting life but because a branch may bear many fruit this can also apply allegorically at least to getting other people saved as well because it takes a saved person who has the right gospel to get other people saved somebody who's not saved is going to preach the wrong gospel and won't save anybody we won't address that particular doctrine in this study but that's you know just a summary so with all that said and done we can start to understand what John 15's abiding me actually means we've done quite a lot of study on what seems like a very difficult and cryptic chapter in John 15 14 15 but he's already told us really what it means Jesus has continuing christ's words the things that he spoke the specific works words that he gave continue in christ's teachings his sayings his doctrines his commandments continue in the knowledge and belief of who christ is that you know he is in the father and the father is in him be comforted knowing that even in christ's physical absence he sends the holy spirit in his place and and he's already overcome the world and he takes responsibility to save us so that we can be joyful and be of good cheer as the passage says don't be afraid of the world and don't be surprised if it hates you either and so you know we've got some very specific meanings of you know what this really means and the disciples were very sorrowful in this conversation because they weren't too fully confident about christ going to his death but upon his resurrection he appeared to them so that they would not be discouraged from continuing in him and now we today we have the revelation that christ fully succeeded and accomplished what he set it out set out to do we've got the gospels the disciples gave us that testimony okay we know that jesus already accomplished this in hindsight and so you know just to illustrate it for you this is how we abide in christ we've got his words we've got who he is we've got his love we've got his doctrines we've got his comfort that's what we continue in and the end result is life everlasting if we don't continue in that that's those who don't abide they they don't end up with that life everlasting fruit there so following this then so some important questions rise out of our study so i've put three questions here that you know people might ask me in light of what we've just said so if somebody does not abide what does this look like and why we need to understand why somebody does not abide and it's cut off and how we can actually identify and observe this happening question number two why do we have this continuous language described as a gradual journey if passing from death to life is an instantaneous entrance and in previous studies of john we've seen that salvation is more like an entrance or you know drinking water eating bread you know entering into the joy it's not a gradual difficult journey as legal it's supposed but in john 15 obviously we get a very different impression because it's a gradual process that we grow this fruit and it may succeed it may fail so that question needs to be addressed and question number three is following the above if salvation is the fruit whereas being in christ is the starting point well then we really need to have a definition of what being in christ actually means because this is quite a challenge for us if a branch is in christ but can also be cut off how and we assert that it was never saved according to our doctrine well then how can we ever say that it was ever in christ to begin with if it wasn't truly saved or does being in christ carry any real meaning or you know are we making that of no effect i guess it is a question that you could ask and so these are some questions that we need to address but before we explore these questions though it would be good just to take a brief look at romans 11 and borrow this concept of grafting because this will complement what we've seen in john 15 to help us answer these questions i think and john 15 doesn't tell us how a branch was in christ in the first place we start from the premise that the branches are already in christ when the illustration starts romans 11 does tell us how a branch was grafted into the main tree though yeah and this might help us to understand the third question and is john 15 talking about individuals or collective groups in context it would seem appropriate to individuals rather than groups but romans 11 kinds of as a dual application because it's both individuals and groups so we can explore both of these applications to answer john 15 as well and john 15 doesn't exactly set itself up to be about salvation specifically whereas romans 11 arguably does and the concepts of grafting will also again help us to understand more about the illustrations about the branches being cut off and being unfruitful and how this is even consistent with eternal security grafting will i think will really benefit what we learned about you know fruit growing and things so just for the sake of time because this is already a very long study it's on the screen i'm not going to read it all out to you but in in verse one paul states that god has not cast away the people of israel he's talking about the israelites collectively so god has not cut off the group of israel because paul himself is one of the saved and he points to himself as an individual right so god has not cast his always people of israel because i'm one of them and you know i paul am part of part of the you know when it comes to election the chosen save people itself there there is a remnant right and so this is not some radical new testament concept but an old testament concept as well even among god's people figuratively the carnal nation of israel actual saved people were remnant among them and jesus frequently criticized the jews for their unbelief yet he also said salvation was of the jews as well so regarding the people is real israelites were god's people figuratively and god did bless the nation at times but the number of people actually believed onto salvation was only perhaps ever a remnant really and when the nation did turn away from god that the bible did not only tell us about the sins of the flesh but also many times if you just look at all the different examples very often false gods and false religion are also a part of it as well so it's not just well they believe the right stuff but they keep sinning it's no they sinned and they also believe the wrong stuff as well you know trusting in the wrong gods and so on and so forth and then in verse 16 of roman's 11 verse 17 notice how the branches are holy so assuming that they are attached to the branch that is holy like the vine in john 15 branches can be cut off from the olive tree in roman's 11 too but unlike the vine it's also explained that foreign branches from non-holy olive trees can be grafted into the holy holy olive tree yeah and then further down in verses 20 to 21 we see that the requirements to not being cut off from the olive tree is belief right the same is true of the vine in john 15 but john 15 explains it much more elaborately and has other implications besides salvation so what's important to consider here is that while paul is referring to the israelites collectively they weren't all broken off many branches were broken off but not all so some branches were left on and there are still some israelite branches attached to the olive tree and then when you get to verses 22 to 24 even though paul is describing the israelites collectively them being cut off they abide in unbelief he then turns to the Gentiles individually saying thou so um in you lose this from modern bibles but in the english in the king james the and thou is singular it refers to you personally or one person and you know this is the context that you miss in modern english unfortunately so as a group the israelites were cut off before because they predominantly abided in unbelief but there are individual israelites and jews which do believe or can and will believe the gospel who can be grafted back on again and so likewise gentiles or christians cannot claim to be the true people of god by virtue of being christian or belonging to the group that claims to be of the true vine like you know the one holy apostolic church or something like that each individual person must abide in belief right and in john 15 this means more than just believing in jesus in some kind of general sense but it means believing in the right jesus believing in the specific words that jesus spoke following his doctrine in who he is and not denying the lord as like the antichrist and people like that and so now to expand our gardening lessons then just as we looked at managing vines much earlier in the study let's briefly take a look at grafting so hopefully you get what this concept is you remove a branch at one branch that was originated from another tree you can attach it to a different tree essential in it hopefully it will merge and become part of that tree now if you don't know a lot about this kind of thing you might ask what is the point why would you do this well there's various reasons um i'm not sure how you pronounce that word prososity precocity premature plants can grow fruit much sooner than their minimum productive age which you know for some plants can take over 10 years before they can start producing fruit so you can get plants to grow fruit much sooner in its lifetime combining properties so you can induce characteristics of one plant onto another such as cold tolerance or hardiness things like that so you know kind of benefits of both worlds if you like ease of propagation i don't fully understand this but for various reasons apparently it may be more cost effective to use the grafting technique on certain plants apparently uh hybrids to create hybrids that take on the properties of two different plants repair to repair a damaged tree and consistency as well so in the case of apple trees apparently i don't know how accurate this is or you know i don't know a lot about this but one apple tree apparently may produce a variety of different apples in terms of size color flavor and so grafting is used to achieve the optimal amount of the preferred varieties as far as i understand that's as much as i know about the subject and this list isn't exhaustive it's just to give you an example of why you would do this right so there are various factors that must be taken into account to achieve a successful graft the scion and the stock need to be compatible otherwise they can't graft you can't just graft absolutely anything with absolutely anything okay it's not like a cartoon where you just you know attach somebody's arm to something else or something like that um alignment and pressure must be correct with both parts being tightly pressed together and oriented in the natural direction for normal growth of that plant and appropriate times in terms of like budding and dormant seasons and seasonal temperatures and proper care of the graft site as as shown in the picture on the left to nurse the plant back to health and to seal the area from excessive water or the potential for disease to when you know things to enter that shouldn't be there so there are just some of the factors that that go into successfully grafting and just like with growing fruit in john chapter 15 it takes a while for a graft to finish so this may be a gradual process it takes time for a successful or failed graft to manifest though it may be sudden when it's manifest so after a while the graft site will need to be inspected now in the picture on the left that i found two grafts succeeded these two on the left and the one on the right failed now sometimes the problem you could have been that used incorrect technique the graft but environmental factors can also affect success as well and obviously environmental factors aren't anybody's fault it's just so you know it's just what so happens so there are only really two inspection outcomes either the grafting union failed or it succeeded you would not say oh well then it was successful but then you know change your mind six months later because you've suddenly decided that it's it's unsuccessful and you know whatever it has limited time to graft okay these branches they need sustenance from the main tree if they don't get that they die so they're on borrowed time to graft right and so they're either going to be successful or they're not so that's simple so if the graft failed there are actions to be taken to protect the rootstock to prevent water loss disease etc very similar to the illustration in john 15 the health of the main tree is paramount and so obviously bad branches and grafts can damage the whole tree yeah furthermore then so the israelites were described as the natural branches they were never grafted whereas you the gentiles were grafted as the wild branches so at the time of paul's letter the gospel's reaching out to the gentiles it was fairly new and a bit of an unusual concept you know as far as the jews were concerned the idea that it goes out to you know these gentiles the gospel almost 2000 years later though we live in a very different world and many of you have already grown up in church or some form of christianity so in a way you probably feel like you identify more with the israelites the natural branches than the gentiles in this illustration because just like the jews had you've grown up with certain biblical concepts since your youth these are not new to you as they might be to somebody who perhaps first hears about christ as a grown adult or something like that and so the gentiles as a group were grafted in collectively but you can be cut off personally irrespective of the group and the the israelites will cut off collectively but many in israelite individuals such as paul stayed attached okay and so this will later help us to understand what it means to be in christ according to john 15 and romans 11 so we see some similarities with john 15 there's only two outcomes either the graft or the fruiting was successful or it wasn't there's no third option of oh well it did graft at first but then a little while later it went wrong and oh well it was growing fruit but then you know then it stopped and then we had to cut it off there's only two options right this third option conditional security option it doesn't exist in this chapter and if you are cut off it's because of unbelief and this may manifest in a variety of ways either you you don't believe in jesus or you believe in another jesus or you believe in another gospel to an extent even in romans 11 you could argue that you are already attached to the tree technically speaking because you were grafted based on the gentiles collectively being grafted into the stock of israel not based on you personally accepting the gospel so although romans 11 gives this illustration of a foreign branch being joined on a group level at an individual and personal level if you are a gentile christian then you were already grafted onto the tree in this illustration whether you individually can be cut off or or not is confirmed by your belief or unbelief after a waiting period as in john 15 so let's consider our three questions then i'm going to answer them together rather than in steps because they do overlap each other let's expand our questions so we can think of all considerations and hopefully close any loop holes so you know we asked if somebody does not abide what does this look like and why so we would need to then know why does it seem like somebody did believe for a while such as the parable of the sower but then suddenly stops believing and stops continuing in christ what what things could you know cause people to be pulled into unbelief or to stop continuing christ words his doctrines if romans 11 was targeted at both individuals and collective groups and maybe john 15 was too what's the difference between cutting off an individual and cutting off a group are they two different things do they overlap uh under question two so you know we ask why do we have this continuous language if salvation is an instant well uh there we know why are there several passages in the bible about continuing in the faith or abiding in his dot dot dot if salvation is instantaneous and permanent why do the apostles teach and exhort us to continue why are god's people supposedly in danger of not continuing or falling away if it's you know once saved or we saved or something if somebody was in christ but is now not how can we say that they are not or were not saved if they supposedly met the conditions previously yeah that's obviously these are some of the questions that we need to be considering following the above if salvation is the fruit whereas being in christ is the starting point we need we need to have a definition of what this means so if somebody who falls away is not and was never saved how can we ever say that they were ever a branch or were ever attached to the olive tree if somebody isn't it is a branch but is not saved and does not believe what does this actually mean what does that even look like okay these are all the kind of different things we've got to consider in our questions so even as early as the new testament itself the apostles warned us that false doctrines false teachings were already creeping in in their time it was often centered around individuals but in some cases for example 2nd Timothy 115 entire regions or sex became affected as well and some of these sex emerged around the individuals that proclaim such teachings Paul's letters to Timothy particularly the second one warns us about false doctrines traitors and seduces coming into the church to deceive so most of the doctrinal attacks would come from within the church rather than without John also warns us about anti christ and peter and jude also warns us about false prophets and deniers as we looked as we just looked at uh collectively at group level Jesus also rebuked all but two of the churches in revelation now because of this the study is already so long i'm going to be quite brief to illustrate the the extra biblical examples or you know rather than giving many sources and drawn out explanations will be quite quick about it so just as Paul wonders about there are several groups that emerged with various heretical teachings but they weren't they weren't exactly foreign religions per se rather they were sex that that labeled themselves as if they were parts of christianity to some extent but then diverge their teachings away from biblical truth or they merged their foreign religious ideas with that of christianity so you may have heard of these two examples now perhaps a bit after Paul's time but there was Gnosticism so they they had weird ideas about the material world versus the spiritual world weird ideas about christ they believe that salvation required secret or special knowledge and there was marcionism centered around the person of marcion who developed his own distinct ideas from the Gnostic sects and believing in dual gods that was some kind of different god in the old and new testament and he rewrote uh luke's gospel and some of Paul's letters as well so then various contrary teaching teachings started to appear which also affected the majority of what is known as christianity so uh many of those teachings then continue in the catholic or the orthodox church today and to some extent uh Protestant churches too so um you know we have the teaching on communion you know we bless the cup do this in remembrance of me we bless the bread you know this is a collective thing somehow that's translated itself as to only the Eucharist celebrated by the bishop himself it is considered which it probably started by Irenaeus on point during 110 AD or around about that time and something that Jesus said do this in remembrance of me has now become a salvation requirement yeah or something like baptism when it says believe and be baptized acts chapter 837 or mark 1616 and it is by its etymological definition immersion that's what the word means well that's now translated itself into somewhere along the lines baptizing infants which probably happened quite early and then sprinkling only which well not so much the orthodox church but in roman Catholicism they just sprinkle but baptism does mean immersion so you can you can see how the teachings are starting to drift away from what christ founded um other various teachings and sayings of Jesus and the apostles so like he said call no man on earth your father or rabbi or master or blessed are they that hear the word of god and do it seducing spirits and doctrines of devils you know forbidding to marry commanding the abstinence of meets that that's what those kind of doctrines are yet somehow that's translated itself into an endless list of excuses as to why it's okay to call their priest father or you know blessed is the womb that bear thee and the paps which thou are such you know their weird obsession with Mary when Jesus said blessed are they that hear the word of god and do it and rules that you know priest can't marry and we must abstain from meet on fridays these are all the kinds of different examples where the catholic or orthodox church has drifted from the teachings that christ actually gave even though we still know today what christ actually taught because we still have those gospel accounts now they will of course give their various reasons for these deviations such as this thing that you know we are the one holy apostolic church that jesus founded and gave the keys to Peter problem is that we are reading john 15 and jesus is very explicit and careful carefully telling his disciples to continue in his words his sayings his commandments so if the one true church so called it is not continuing in his commandments that they've redefined and overridden the commandments right well as per romans 11 and john 15 it is possible to be cut off okay so you might ask them well what what exactly does that have to do with individuals abiding or being cut off well many of their false teachings arose from early church christian fathers so-called and they weren't a minority view either now some of their were their counter biblical views happened quite early in christian history and engulfed so much of it that Catholicism and orthodoxy became what what we would have at least at the time called mainstream Christianity you know you sometimes hear that term banded about so people give far too much credence to the teachings of early christians because they they supposedly represent what the church believed but the catholic orthodox mindset is that because they claim to be the true church that jesus founded they are always the true body of christ and that they manipulate sorry monopolize salvation no matter how far their teachings deviate from what he taught but the problem is as romans 11 already explains that the jews really fell into the same trap they thought they were righteous by virtue of their descending from abraham rather than their actual belief in biblical truth and romans 11 says that they were cut off so there is no reason to suggest that the roman catholic and eastern orthodox churches are not cut off either but obviously if a catholic individual believes the gospel they they can be grafted back in of course and in revelation we have warnings that churches can can have their candlestick blotted out and spat out of jesus mouth and so on and so forth and so let's let's fast forward to the reformation era then various reformers such as luther and calvin among others sought to reform what they called the church quote unquote and bring it back to uh biblical truth which he could in a way liken it to grafting it back in the holy olive tree i suppose that the problem is though that they only really diluted catholicism and orthodoxy they they didn't really reform or overturn it and in in some of jesus' teachings many of them actually protestants are worse than the catholics and orthodox because they do things that even those denominations wouldn't do uh many of the protestant denominations still baptize babies and and some sex within the anglican church really still hold to predominantly catholic teaching anglican is quite a mixed bag because it didn't exactly separate in the same way that others did so you've got mixed a bag of catholic like so kind of believers and you know reform types as well within the same denomination and while reformers made great efforts to overturn sacraments in giving voice to faith alone justification they still propagate this idea that if one is saved one will do works okay so they never really left that you must have the works mentality and many of you know these denominations are promoting things contrary to the bible which even the catholic church wouldn't dare allow and you can see examples of the screen layer like you know female ordination or sodomite marriage and clerical officers or tolerating church members procuring abortions and things like that you know these are some things that protestant denominations are often endorsing catholic church or the orthodox church predominantly don't i'm not saying that they're not you know taking i'm not saying that they are taking a hard stance on those things but you know they at least give lip service to saying that those things are wrong and so fast forward again to modern evangelicalism where at least where it deviates from Protestantism to some degree so you might think of like your pentecostalism and your charismatic movements right uh well we you know again we just as we did with catholic church we can see where we've got clear biblical foundations and teachings and how we've drifted from that right so let's let's take speaking in tongues in the bible for example in acts two the apostles were able to speak to people in multiple languages which they never learned meant from across the world were able to understand them right now in Corinthians paul advises that it's better to speak in a known tongue and then briefly with very little context really mentions the tongues of angels with with little to no explanation about what that means or entails we've literally got one verse doesn't really tell us what it means that somehow translated itself into shaka like a blabla you know whatever you know and tongues is the evidence of salvation right or you know gibberish is somehow a heavenly language based on one verse that doesn't really even say that uh and being being filled with the spirit versus alcohol and demonic possession so demonically possessed individuals lost a lot of self-control did a lot of things they wouldn't normally do and manifested in unusual places such as a graveyard uh being filled in with the spirit is diametrically opposed to drunkenness according to Ephesians 5 18 and according to Corinthians the spirit of the prophet is subject onto the prophets right but somehow in pentecostal and charismatic teachings that's translated itself to uncontrollable behaviors akin to demonic position but it happens in the church and they attribute it to the holy spirit all of a sudden or even when they are supposedly casting out devils it's funny how these events seem to take place during the church services such as with tv joshua or even after baptism such as this torbans on the guard guy you know like he baptizes people and then they start showing all these demonic signs well the thing is demonically possessed individuals in the bible didn't need to be baptized first for that to manifest and that they were often in graveyards or very unusual places and so you know it really you have to wonder if it's more to do with his hand being laid on him that's causing that and spiritual drunkenness while drunkenness is the opposite of being filled with the spirit according to Ephesians they've translated that into spiritual drunkenness and so you can see how again these teachings are deviating from the words and the teachings that christ himself actually gave and the foundations that we actually have in the bible and although although there are three primary questions there is an extended question here I suppose just because a person disobeys these commandments or drifts from these teachings that I'm speaking of does that mean that they did not abide in christ though because obviously after all under the free grace easy believers and framework it is technically possible to be saved but but being disobedience or error in in some matters and that and that is obviously true but you will find that it's just no coincidence though that it is predominantly unsaved people who fall into these errors and and disobedience I mean I've never in my experience anyway I know that's anecdotal but I've never met a saved person who goes around calling priests father this and father that hashtag just saying okay I've never met a saved person who has uncontrollable bursts of weird spiritual manifestations at least that I'm aware of hashtag just saying I've never met a saved person who thinks that a sodomite taking a church office is acceptable again hashtag just saying maybe they are out there but I don't know about it I've never known a saved person who believes the right gospel kissing statues of Mary again hashtag just saying I've never I've never seen that okay I might be wrong but I have never seen it and let's just you know as a as a key example let's consider the Pentecostal definition of tongue speaking right because under the free grace framework it is possible that somebody believes the right gospel and is saved but but still engages in this in this practice known as glossolalia you know and they go actually about a little bit you know all these tongue speaking stuff that they do but what you will find is that this is typically though not some standalone teaching where Pentecostalism just happens to be wrong about this issue while still holding the right gospel though it fundamentally actually affects the gospel that they believe in because Pentecostals typically lean towards Armenian doctrines of salvation believing that it can be lost and that's not exclusive but that's often the case I think many Pentecostals believe that speaking in tongues or some sort of holy spirit manifestation is a necessary outward sign to justify that somebody really is saved in other words if you are saved these weird signs will manifest themselves okay so you see how it's it's not just that they're saved but they also do this that this what they do has become a part of their gospel that they believe in so at a corporate level a collective level not so much about individuals but collectively you can see why so many Christians deviate from biblical teaching and it just so happens as well that they also believe in a false gospel so if we because what happens is if we don't abide in Jesus's words he's saying his commandments his doctrines his teachings then essentially we're not really abiding in the faith which he established and since Christ monopolizes salvation and he taught important salvation doctrine we can see that by falling away from his foundations and the gospel itself then must fall away too because a true saving gospel cannot be built on false foundations right in other words what you might say that I'm trying to say is the problem with the Catholics isn't that they're baptizing babies in of itself right the problem is that they think they are aiding Christ in salvation by doing this that you know they're silly little rituals and mundane things that they do is somehow going to make a difference whether that person goes to heaven or hell the problem with Protestantism isn't that they put women behind the pulpit the problem is that they have to explain away God's various commandments which then inevitably ends up you have to explain away salvation passages as well the problem with Pentecostals isn't that they're speaking in tongues the problem is that they think this is how to test if a person is saved when tongue speaking is not the method by which a person is saved etc etc etc okay and even when the people even the people who give the most lip service to living for God and and surrendering ourselves to him for salvation are themselves really in this same error because the problem with saying you have to repent of your sins to be saved isn't that repenting of sins is a bad thing it is a good thing but the problem is is that someone thinks he is either assisting Christ or somehow justifying himself by doing this right the problem with the surrender your life to Christ gospel isn't that it's a bad thing to give your whole life to Christ to work in you and through you that is a good thing but the problem is is that the mindset even if they won't acknowledge it it's still in their mindset that they think they're somehow sort of repaying Christ Christ of his kindness by doing this the problem with the work salvation message it isn't that good works are actually bad it's that the problem is someone thinks he is vindicating himself or complimenting Christ's saving work for him by doing those works the problem with sinless perfectionism isn't that sinless perfection isn't like an ideal way of life or an admirable admirable desire obviously that's a good desire but the problem is that one thinks he only he only needs Christ as like a reset button or a slate cleaner rather than actual preserver or savior or carrier right so we've seen what this looks like at a collective level what about a more individualistic level which is more appropriate to John 15 what does that actually look like because it's one thing looking at groups but then you know we could really make the case that John 15 is perhaps more about individuals and this is a complex answer because everybody's journey is different you know I can barely cover even 1% of the various examples that that people go through so I'll just I'm just going to give you a couple of examples just to help you understand this concept now this picture that you see here I haven't done a lot of slides on this I'm just going to explain it verbally but this is a television show that was in the UK a few years ago and it was called the secret life of a four five six year old and they're basically getting kids in this nursery and they'd film them and examine the different ways that they solved problems and respond to temptations and different things you know just to study the psychology behind young children and they had a special episode like a Christmas special where some kids were brought in to do a nativity right and so there were all the these are some of the kids that were in the nativity and you know they filmed the kids doing different things as they get ready for this nativity and what was interesting about this slide is that this particular kid I think that you know I can't remember his exact age but the between four and six essentially quite young um he's saying that Jesus didn't really exist or something to that effect so there's not really a god or some I can't remember exactly what he said but it was words to that effect and all the other kids around him were also in like yes he does and then they all started chanting like Jesus Jesus Jesus like you know that they all believe that that Jesus exists right now as someone who lives and grows up in the UK you know I know that statistically most British people are not really that religious and I mean there are people with like vague Christian beliefs but not really people who stand by their convictions really seriously um and so I know this is a very small sample because we have only got six children that that's not exactly a sample size but you know statistically it's highly unlikely that if somebody said Jesus didn't exist among a group of six people you know about six random people anyway that five other people would be all standing up for Jesus right and not not all of them would be that zealous about it really but obviously the mindset of a child is very different and so you know for them they they believe in Jesus perhaps in the same way that they also believe in Santa Claus I mean if he said Santa Claus wasn't real they'd probably all start chanting for Santa Claus as well right and uh you know at six years old or five years he's probably not analysed all the implications of this he's obviously grown up in a family where he's kind of been taught those are ideals to some extent you know if someone that young comes out with this thing that he never existed or whatever you know it's probably been planted by his his parents somehow but then statistically it's highly unlikely that all these other five kids are all going to grow up to be zealous you know on fire by or Bible-believing Christians or something like that highly unlikely right and so many children what I'm trying to say is that many children both inside and outside of the church may believe in God or Jesus in some sort of generic sense in the same way that they also believe in Santa Claus if you like but but they do not have an unwavering faith in him or a full understanding of the gospel necessarily and and really when they grow up like when they stop believing in Santa Claus they may also stop believing in God or never really end up believing the right gospel and so their faith as a young child lacking understanding is ultimately in vain you know when when they grow up and it becomes manifest that they're not really Christian now now please you know don't misunderstand me as belittling a childlike faith or belittling the idea that a child can get saved by the the simple gospel you know I I believe in those things and I believe that you know childlike faith is a very positive thing but but they're not the two points that I'm actually getting at here though okay the point is that many people even at a young age will have some sort of awareness of God and the Bible and certain Christian principles and for a season may even believe them sort of as the seed on the hard rock if you like but but they will eventually be offended or tempted whether they end up to grow grow up and have a false understanding of the gospel or a false understanding of Christian truth such as Catholicism or Methodism and then when you try to give them the gospel they don't want to hear it because they've just grown up with that all their life and they're never going to let go of it or maybe they will study religious philosophies or sciences they get older and eventually they'll deconstruct and I do actually have a deconstruction example to look at in a couple of slides maybe they will just grow up and forget about it and stop caring you know and so very much like the seed that fell on the stony ground they they had some foundation of some sort of which the seed to land on but it never really took root though it never really grounded itself in the word of God and so following that then as I said I would do is it's interesting to look at Christian deconstruction videos and so essentially what these are these are people who once identified as Christian even as adults in many cases but but they don't now they do not they they don't identify as a Christian anymore and they kind of really epitomise the the people that don't abide in a way now just as a warning just as a kind of disclaimer if you like I'm going to show you a real example that at the time of doing this recording you can find this on YouTube I would ask that you don't go on her videos and condemn her as an apostate or a reprobate or words to that effect I think this has been a very painful journey for this person and unfortunately she was part of a church that I think maybe displayed some some cult-like behaviors and had an abusive workspace salvation which is not her fault and so if you do check out her channel and look at her stuff you know please do be merciful don't don't be like nasty to her or anything like that and so this person she's called Sarah Martin and you can find her videos on YouTube at the time of this recording and there's a video where she essentially titles it why I stopped calling myself a Christian her story is quite interesting to listen to she gives insight into some of the kinds of Christians she was around and her life as a Christian assuming that her testimony is trustworthy she was a very zealous Christian she took her faith very seriously okay now she released another video that was titled watch this before you accuse someone of never being a real Christian and so she released this video insisting that you ought not to say about people like her you were never a true a real Christian or a true Christian now if you like me you believe in eternal security you can kind of understand why people might have said this to her but um what's interesting is when you actually watch that video and listen to the reasons why she says she was a true Christian because what what stood out to me is that her justification for saying she was a real Christian primarily I did this and I did that and I was thus rather than I believe this specific doctrine like you know she never really delved into I believed in faith alone or I believed in one saved always saved or this that and the other it was all you know I did all of this and I stood in my Bible and I did this and I did that and so and and she said in one of her videos I can't remember which one it was but she said that she had self-esteem issues but she started to feel uncomfortable with the idea that I am a sinner and I need to be saved and her justification being that behaviors that we as Christians see as sinful or abominable are just a normal part of the human behavior and experience so she didn't really agree with the sin lens through which we as Christians tend to see these things right and so when we examine her testimony and you know do watch her stuff if you know you just want to validate everything that I'm saying you know please do but when we examine her testimony through what most of my audience would hopefully understand we see something very fundamentally wrong with the suggestion that she was saved but then lost her salvation because if she does not see human behavior through the lens of sin and she never felt comfortable with the notion that she is a sinner in need of a savior then how can we ever really assert that she ever really believed on Christ to the to the saving of the soul unless whatever belief she has was really a vain belief and her justification for being a real Christian which is not really that's terminology that I tend to refrain from using now anyway because all sorts of people claim to be a true or a real Christian it doesn't really carry any meaning anymore there are people who are saved and people who are not saved it's as simple as that but her justification for it was based on her zeal and her works rather than a profession of what she actually believed and if she does reference that she believed it's in a general generic sense of believing in Christianity rather than the specifics of faith and works or eternal versus conditional security I didn't really hear her delve too much into those kinds of things and so really it's very problematic if we are to say that the Holy Spirit did dwell in her and sealed her why the Spirit did not protect her or why the Spirit did not answer her objections and keep her because are we ultimately then to say that the Holy Spirit is a failure and I think we would be quite blasphemous if we were to border into that territory so if we were to say that she was never saved in other words she never passed from death on to life how can we ever say that she was a branch in Christ even even for a season well she did start identifying with the Christian mindset irrespective of whether her peers had the right gospel or not as an early teenager she did believe in a generic sense that Jesus died and rose again but she does explain that this was perhaps more to do with herself esteem issues rather than an unwavering faith or dependency on the on the need for Christ she read and studied the Bible but and she read Christian writings and studies she surrounded herself with Christian community I mean she she probably read some of these Christian writings far more than I have really she joined and studied worship and study groups she probably lived a much more holy life than most people outside of the Christian faith you know she wasn't going around drinking and fornicating as other college kids did so this is like where Peter says they escaped the pollution of the world and she did explain that she suffered spiritual abuse in relation to the purity culture now I'm not quite sure exactly to what extent but again that this fact that there was this abuse going around suggests that there was a lot of you know work salvation in there and my apologies because I've just realized I've not been having these slides on full view but I've spent so long doing these I don't want to do it again I hope you can forgive me so but anyway we see her journey through the the lens of of John 15 to an extent she was hearing the words of God my words my sayings she read the Bible she studied the Bible she participated in biblical teachings and considered them she even said she loved reading and studying the Bible I'm sure she said that and to an extent she was she was following Jesus commandments and not not necessarily abiding in the teachings and sayings but but you know following the ideas of Christianity and trying to live a Christian life superficially she was counted as brethren among her Christian peers and loved one another as Christ has loved you and so they assumed she was Christian she assumed she was Christian she was called a sister in Christ and but when we see her journey to its its full conclusion she did not abide or continue in the love and the doctrine of Christ she realized her views about sin that she didn't agree with the Christian concept of sin and she ultimately decided I don't need saving that's what she decided Christianity is founded on this important principle right and she so she did not believe onto the saving of the soul but really drew back into perdition as Hebrews 10 39 explains and as I said earlier you know please don't misconstrue what I'm saying is as being mean to her or criticizing her or denouncing her you know please don't post hurtful or reproving comments on her channel she's not like an apostate that's going around spreading a false gospel of work salvation or something she is unfortunately somebody who did not abide and we should be mournful about that you know not not indignant about that when I listened to her story about the Christians she was around and asked some challenging she asked some challenging questions it sounded like many of them didn't know a Nazarite from a Nazarene anyway and that's not her fault if she was around unlearned people who you know probably weren't even saved themselves unfortunately and many of them just gave her redundant advice such as just read the Bible or just seeking God but she was already doing this right and so just saying just seek God is not really practical in any way and even after her deconstruction Christians were giving this same redundant advice but but the thing is if she has declared that she is not a sinner who needs saving unfortunately without recognition of that premise no amount of seeking God or just read the Bible is ever going to help her because this is the premise is what it's what the Bible says and that's the result of seeking God if you read the Bible and seek God you will find that you are a sinner in need of a savior and so just saying just read the Bible or just seek God is not really helpful advice to this person and so next let's consider an example from the Bible so for the sake of time I'll be brief but if you remember when we studied John 6 earlier in the series it was Jesus's own disciples now not the twelve but the other disciples that he must have had who walked no more with him right it says in John 6 60 to 66 now a disciple is somebody who is committed to learning someone's teachings that they're not ordinary believers or infidels or you know ordinary students that they're people who are committed to his teachings because that's what disciple means but John confirms in his gospel account that Jesus already knew from the beginning they believed not and that they would betray him right and so that's in verse 64 and so they they were learning from Christ they were hearing his teaching and for a while they were his disciples but it wasn't until they stumbled on the teaching of Jesus at a very specific moment in John 6 where it was finally confirmed that they would not continue with Jesus whereas the remaining disciples did continue with Jesus obviously if we discount Judas they did continue with Jesus and have continued all the way up until John 15 and as far as we know they will go on to continue so Jesus already knew this as per John 6 but the events of John 6 were simply the manifestation of this division before men where many of his disciples would be cut off from hearing Christ's words and they would with it so in other words if it wasn't for this conversation in John 6 the other disciples the other 12 disciples that they wouldn't or the 11 rather they wouldn't see this process of hey Jesus has got all these other disciples they've been his disciples but now they're not continuing well obviously we need to know why we need to know how that manifests itself and so that's really why we need that documented in John 6 why that happened and what actually happened that led up to that point so we've looked at examples of believing in vain what about people who claim the label of Christianity probably onto the bitter end in some cases but believe something that we would claim is false and we might think of somebody who still is a Christian to some extent does believe in the Bible in a manner of speaking very confidently but maybe has a false gospel or you know another gospel another Jesus something like that well those of you that have watched my content before have known I you know if you're familiar with my content you know I've done a lot of work on this guy up you see unapologetics who's now changed his name very very very ironically to abide in the word or you know he's changed his channel name recently I find it very ironic the name that he picked in the end but you know I've done a lot of content on him rebuking him shortly and so how does he fit into John 15 is he really somebody who has who is not abiding in the same way as somebody who has deconstructed like Sarah Martin for example well let me apologize for yet again doing more material on this guy I know he's just one of a million other heretics we could pick on and you know he doesn't deserve this attention but it's just you know he's just one of many people I could pick on it but because I've listened to a lot of his content especially his earlier videos I'm more familiar with his journey and testimony which is the reason why I'm just going to use him as a case study and I apologize that I've already done so much on him but um so listening to his testimony if you find his video about how he came out of one saved always saved from what I gather he had probably been saturated by Calvinist teaching rather than free grace teaching because in his earlier videos as far as I remember he tended to attack Calvinism more so I think free grace and easy believism is probably been something that he's been confronted with after his transition to conditional security because we you know people in free grace and he's they've probably done it reactively after he's done all this content against one saved always saved on his channel now please don't quote me on that because I'm not fully sure but I think prior to him transitioning to conditional security I think he was more familiar with Calvinism rather than free grace or easy believism so he explained in his journey that Christians around him were just like the world and that God began to reveal things to him quote unquote and bear fruit in his life quote unquote which really what he means by that is he started to turn away from his sins and started behaving more righteously and being more sanctified in his works and he has grown in his love for God quote unquote so really part of his shift in doctrinal position has more to do with him comparing his behavior to other people rather than whether what he believes is actually doctrinally true in other words he's measured his salvation by his works performance when salvation is not by works right now unlike the previous person that we looked at he does claim that he has found the truth in the Bible itself and so from his perspective he is somebody that is abiding to this day whereas he would say that somebody like me is not abiding right whereas I would just say the same thing to him because he thinks he's continuing in the commandments the same as the words of Jesus and those of us who believe in free grace or well really I could just call it grace really but but he would say that we're not continuing so people like me were not abiding he thinks that he is whereas I think the opposite is true who's right right okay that that's the question well he explained that he started to question the doctrines he previously believed mainly once they've always saved when the Bible says various things he believed to be contrary to the doctrine for example Hebrews 10 26 and he had looked at various explanations such as those by John Piper and John MacArthur again Calvinists not not free grazed people and what Christians generally said about Hebrews 10 26 but but he wasn't satisfied with their explanation so some of them would say something like it's not talking about God's people it's talking about the heath and that that's how they would explain it but then obviously when you open it and carry on reading it says God shall judge his people right so he wasn't satisfied with their explanations and he started to question once saved always saved and no no and he said he says anyway nobody around him believed in conditional security and he started to quote unquote feel like a heretic well he wasn't wrong but he then asked God essentially this is what he said he asked God in his testimony I want to know the truth even if there is something that I don't like and and if I mean I think he's I've caught in lying on his channel so I don't exactly trust everything he says but he does say somewhere on his channel that he tried to confront his church pastor about these things and I think it sounded like they neglected to help him or they kind of fobbed him off and didn't really help him I don't know how true that is that's just what he says now what might be quite shocking or troubling to some of you listening is that this person essentially he claimed to ask God for help with this doctrine and ask God to show him the truth and yet he ended up believing in conditional security right whereas I on the other hand have asked God this same question and yet I ended up believing in eternal security now this this might be quite hard for some people to swallow them because we have essentially reached a conclusion whether that be me or him that we can literally ask God someone can literally ask God to show them the truth and still be left in darkness right that that's quite a terrifying prospect if you think about it now there are at this time various sharp disagreements and discord circulating on youtube in various free grace circles between people about predestination versus free will as as they pertain to salvation and they have opposing answers to this conundrum so a few people have been sort of falling out and grouping themselves over this issue I'm not really going to address John 15 in light of this controversy because this study is not about that really what I'm going to show is I'm going to show you it from my frame of reference and from epi-ucian apologetics or abide in the words frame of reference so we're going to look at it more from our frame of reference rather than God's frame of reference and the reason being you know yes there are passages about God drawing as Christ holding on to us for eternal life and God predestination predestining us from salvation electing and but the things we can't apply that quite so easily to John 15 although we just say I've chosen the disciples there is an aspect of it but remember that Jesus is telling us or his disciples to abide in him that's the instruction so because he's telling is telling you or he's telling me or he's telling the disciples abide in me that's our instruction I think for the sake of the study it makes more I think it's more helpful to explore it through the lens of our responsibility on this particular issue rather than Christ's responsibility okay so in his journey out of one saved always saved he explains about nine I think it's about nine minutes 35 seconds in that he would look he faced verses such as you know one of our famous conditional sorry famous eternal security verses that we all know and love nobody can pluck them out of my hand from John 10 28 29 right now what was his response how did he handle this verse well his answer in this video was that his he said my thought process was thinking that says nothing about me walking away right so he opens the bible it says no man can ever pluck them out of my hand it doesn't say anything about me walking away that's his logic that's what his thought process is telling himself right now again obviously you're relying on me telling the truth about him but there's the video so you can go on this video and you can find it yourself there's the timestamp you know please do double check everything that I'm saying but this is this is very crucial information provided by his testimony okay because you and I and him we are all confronted with the same verse we all have this verse in our bible right so what was your reaction to it that's my question that I would ask you because my reaction was that it mentions eternal life that's the subject matter that's what John 10 is talking about it says that Christ will hold on and I just assume that my hand is not greater than his hand and because it's because he's holding on to my hand it's his responsibility to do this not my responsibility right it's not my responsibility to hold on to his hand he's holding on to my hand so that no man can ever pluck them out right and there's no exceptions given in this passage that there is no exception no man shall ever pluck them out of my hand and he's answered his own question it says nothing about me walking away right well that's the end of it for me it says nothing about me walking away but his reaction was well it doesn't say I can't walk away and so what what he's done is he has had to make his own exception based on what it doesn't say rather than just going on what it does say okay now just as a bit of verbal commentary please don't misconstrue what I'm saying here is like I'm better than him because I'm better at decision making than him or you know I got saved and God answered my because I just know how to respond greatly you know please don't misunderstand this as you know me bragging about free will or something like that that's not the case this is not meant to sound like a brag I'm just trying to show you tangibly how the Word of God has two different effects on two different people who are both asking this same prayer God show me the truth right and so you know what's fundamentally wrong here is the mind turn and it you know it's not my good decision making or my you know I didn't make good decisions before I got saved that that's not so please don't misunderstand this as a brag I'm just trying to show you you know how the Word of God affects two people completely differently that's what I'm trying to show you and ultimately what I'm trying to explain is then that his reaction to that verse is very troubling because he has essentially added his own exception which the passage does not offer and of course you know he would point to other passages in the Bible such as John 15 to to present his exceptions right but but the problem is here's the problem with the way that he's approaching John 10 is that John 15 or Hebrews 6 or John Hebrews 10 26 or other typical conditional security go to passages they don't mention the shepherd sheep illustration so you can't really take a passage that's about something completely different altogether and then invent some new type of sheep in John 10 that we can walk away from Christ when John 10 offers no such concept and in my previous video on John 10 you know I do go into a lot of detail about what's wrong with that okay but you know we have two types of sheep those that it is and those that are not and those that are not it's because they don't believe in that it's as simple as that and of those that it is no man shall ever put them out of my hand so to invent a sheep that is Christ and can walk away still based on a passage that has nothing to do with sheep that doesn't work your what you're doing is you're just finding excuses or you're just finding passages about something entirely different to make your own exception right and remember what I said in the previous slide he tried to justify it by saying my thought process was thinking thus and such but you see those two words there thought process therein lies the problem because if you think about it the Bible commands us to repent well what does that mean change your mind change the way you think and so in his case it would have been profitable to repent of pontificating what John 10 doesn't say and just blindly believe what John 10 does say without trying to redefine it unfortunately he didn't take that option and so you know he think well my thought process says it says nothing about me walking away well yeah you need to change the way you think childlike faith right your thought process is the problem not the solution now it's hard to spot somebody like him as somebody who does not abide because he does know the Bible very well and as far as he is concerned he is somebody who is abiding in Christ's word sayings and commandments and it's only really when you dig a little deeper and really think carefully about how he establishes his doctrines and interprets the Bible you can really see how he does not actually continue in Christ now I'll give you some examples of just people who don't abide in Christ like him okay so just to give you some examples then of people who abide versus people who don't abide in in Christ's word so the Bible said right we have this verse whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life right so he who abides a person who abides in Christ's words would look at that verse and think well it mentions eternal life that's the application it's not talking about something else it's not just talking about a Christian life it's talking about eternal life right and the condition is believes in him that's the condition believing in him somebody who abides that's how they react to that verse somebody who does not abide would say well what about all these works passages but the thing is in those works passages eternal life is not the application right so we have this premise believe on him have everlasting life yeah but there's this passage about sinning no more yeah but where did it mention eternal life though in that conversation and so you see what they're doing here and that's tricky because they are going to the Bible you know it's not like they're going to the world for those reactions but they're going to non-eternal life passages to redefine eternal life or they'll say well there's more to it than just believing and so what they have to do is add words in this verse that it doesn't say they have to read this verse saying whosoever believes in him and proves his belief by his works should not perish but have everlasting life well the problem is you're just making your own exceptions to that verse based on a passage that's not talking about eternal life okay here's another one that they do it with so for by grace you are saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of god not of works like any man should boast Ephesians too you're very familiar with it I'm sure so he who abides in christ words would look at that christ words there and think well it mentions salvation there is saved in its eternal salvation it very very very very very specifically says it's not of works why for the very very very purpose that no man should boast right and it says it's by grace grace means god's unmerited favor that's what that word means right so somebody who abides looks at that verse and thinks of it in those terms well says it by grace says it's not of works so that's how we're saved now somebody who does not abide says but what about James saying we're justified by works and again they are going to the Bible they're not going to the world for that answer which is why it's a tricky one but notice how I've put in the word saved there and crossed it out yeah and I've put the word justified because you see what they're doing there the Bible says we're saved without works so well what about James it says it's justified by works yes I can see it says it's justified by works doesn't say saved by works though does it Ephesians says saved without works it doesn't mean it doesn't say justified says saved words matter okay now also somebody who does not abide would then go to the next verse in Ephesians after this where it says we are called on to good works that we we should walk in them right but the problem is that verse doesn't change the fact that salvation is still without works yeah but the next verse says to do with yes but it's still salvation's without works though it doesn't change that principle okay so salvation is without works we've been called on to good works but salvation is still without works that's still the case okay and so you see how somebody who abides not just has to make these random exceptions to just cancel out verses okay and here's some more examples so the Bible said I give unto them eternal life they shall never perish neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand my father which is gave them me is greater than all look at that bit there greater than all and no man is able to pluck them out of my father's hand right so somebody who abides in Christ's words would just think well it mentions eternal life it's it's there it's right there my hand is not greater than the father's hand because he's greater than all there are no exceptions here right there's there's absolutely no exceptions no ifs no buts and that this is the bit that people overlook is that somebody who abides thinks well his sheep belong to him okay anybody who knows the first thing about shepherding sheep knows that sheep are animals they're not people with free will okay they are seen as property they belong to the shepherd okay a property his property his sheep that belong to him cannot just walk away because that's not how shepherding works okay if you were a shepherding you just let your sheep wander away well guess what you're going to be out of a career very very quickly okay somebody who doesn't abide in Christ's words will just says meh free will it says nothing about me walking away well you've answered your own question haven't you it says nothing about him walking away so let's just abide in Christ's words or they'll point to well Hebrew six they fell away yes but where does it say they were saved on to life where does it mention sheep and shepherding it doesn't simple as that okay um and here's another one know that no no you not that they which run the race run all but one receives the prize so run that you may obtain now somebody who abides in Christ's words would look at that passage in its context and think well it doesn't mention Paul's own eternal life okay Ephesians and Romans already told me that salvant my salvation is a gift not a prize notice I've crossed out the word prize there because it says it's a gift eternal life is not a competition between me and somebody else because in this in this race if you read that passage only one person wins the prize yeah but we're not competing with each other for eternal life it's not you're not Jehovah's Witnesses believing in the hundred and forty four thousand okay so therefore somebody who abides in Christ's words would think it's talking about something else not about salvation because salvation's a gift that says prize and he's not you know they'll just read the context and see what he's talking about somebody who doesn't abide in Christ's words would just say it's talking about my salvation based on nothing you have to win the race to be saved right so I've already exposed what the problem was with that in another video or they'll say stop digressing with those Romans Ephesians passages when I'm trying to confront you with this you know eternal life you know about eternal life with this passage yeah but you're confronting me with a passage that's not about eternal life when I digress to Romans and Ephesians I'm going to the eternal life passages I'm going to the salvation passages I'm going to the justification onto righteousness passages but you see when you talk about the eternal life passages he who doesn't abide wants to get you talking about this well what about this passage well really if we're talking about eternal life and you bring up that passage we should actually be saying what about this passage because this is an eternal life passage this one isn't okay and so you can see the different reactions between the person who abides in Christ's words and the person who doesn't abide in Christ's words okay even though the person who doesn't abide is quoting Christ's words ironically and this is really you know this kind of illustrates to us then how false gospels work in a nutshell and really summarizes John 15 in a salvific perspective for us as I've spoken before on this channel many many times if we have to abide in Christ's love his words his commandments according to John 14 and 15 then why do the most hardcore work salvation advocates who by the way they love to quote John 14 15 they love this passage why do they insist on changing the words and commandments that Jesus actually gave because if we have to abide in commandments it's all about abiding in his commandments and the work salvation crowd love to quote abiding in his commandments well why then are your commandments not aligning with Christ's commandments because Christ's commandment said whosoever believe within me shall not perish but have everlasting life Christ's commandment said believe on the Lord Jesus Christ that thou shall be saved Christ's commandment said repent and believe the gospel notice that it doesn't say the three magical words of your sins in that verse right well these people that say you have to abide in his commandments they've changed the commandments they say surrender your life to Christ to be saved well Christ never said that they say repent of your sins to be saved well it doesn't say repent of your sins it just says repent or you know they say my works you know it's all about their freaking works yeah all those works passages that don't mention eternal life we've got nothing to do with salvation yeah those ones or you know they say you need to sorrow and weep over the state of your sin and fall on your knees at the foot of the cross and pour out your heart and deny yourself and take up your cross and run the race for the prize for everlasting life well the thing is half of that Christ didn't even command and the other half again nothing to do with eternal life or even you know in its applicable thing nobody follows it for eternal life so you see how the people who love to quote John 14 15 are themselves in disobedience to John 14 15 because they've changed Christ's commandments so hopefully you can see that very clearly so hopefully by now then you're starting to reach a conclusion about what Jesus is intending on teaching in John 15 too many people see John 15 through the lens of it being about the subjects of salvation specifically and instructed to those who are already unequivocally saved and there are allegorical applications to Christians because Jesus is talking to his own disciples and so free will Freddy sees it through the lens of continuing in the faith and salvation without walking away from it while chosen Charlie sees it through the lens of confirming if somebody really is saved but really if we're talking about salvation specifically then if anything really the application to John 15 is that what it really is it's a litmus test for those who are or not saved or who will be saved or won't be saved as measured by those who continue in his words versus those who don't and you might call this the journey leading up to salvation okay but you know as I said before eternal life is not being directly mentioned as the subject here Jesus is telling his disciples to continue in his words in his commandments which is basically what he said what he instructed and his love so you know what he has done for them and how he has treated them right so let's just have a recap of John 14 and 15 so to keep his words the things that he said well salvifically his words said to believe on him that we might have life he didn't command us to surrender our life to be saved because before we got saved we were already dead in sin so how can you surrender your life if you're dead in sin doesn't make any sense right gee you know in John 15 you the branch abiding him the vine well salvifically there is no salvation in any other Jesus any other gospel or other message right there's one Jesus one gospel continue in his love well salvifically he loved you by dying on the cross and rising again if Christ is not risen then we have believed in vain if we deny him as the Christ we deny his love right when he says his words must remain in you if you want him to do as you ask him to do well salvifically how are you going to ask Jesus to show you the truth or give you eternal life if everything that he says pertaining to the subject you have to add yeah but or what if or what about and also this well the thing is you know it's like this epiucio guy there's no point you asking God to show you the truth if when he shows you the truth you go yeah but that says nothing about dot dot dot it's a pointless prayer you're not abiding in his words and so you ask what you will but it won't be done on to you because you're not abiding in his words right and the disciples themselves were chosen that their fruit should remain so salvifically we know that we are described as chosen and elect so if God chose us and that equates to being saved and we can't we cannot undo God's purposes then those that who those who don't abide and are cut off according to John 15 six they they don't lose salvation they failed election that's what happened and so if God chose their you know God chose the disciples their fruit should remain and so God's elect their fruit should remain otherwise you have to say that God's election is essentially a failure and again we're bordering on blasphemy if we start accusing God's election of being a failure so although it's not in in of itself directly talking about salvation you can see that there are salvific applications to it and salvation certainly is a subset of what it's talking about because presumably if you don't abide in Christ's words and Christ's words include what we must do or what God must do for salvation it's still appropriate for the matter being discussed yeah but then perhaps you might wonder well why tell the disciples this then if they're chosen and they will continue anyway what what difference does it make what why tell them to abide and that a branch could be cut off what what difference does it make to the disciples and that is a good question because perhaps what I referred to what I have spoken about before particularly in relation to John 6 will help us to understand two frames of reference now obviously I focused on sort of my frame of reference but there's how God sees the world and he knows the beginning from the end and then obviously that there's how man sees the world and we do not have the foresight of something that will happen outside of clear prophecies okay so so let's try and illustrate this with a chart chronologically okay so we've got this conversation this is time this this this bar here we've got the conversation in John 13 to 16 we've got the past so everything that happened in the past and obviously you know that we know what happened in the past just a little while now this isn't to scale but just a little while after this we've got Jesus going to his death and then he's going to rise again and then after that he's going to see his disciples and then after that Jesus goes to the father okay so this this is the the chronological time chart if you will so the disciples can already see behind them they've already been with Jesus they they know what the Old Testament says and in the future the Holy Spirit is going to bring into remembrance the things that Jesus taught them anyway yeah but they can't see ahead of them at present they are very sorrowful as it says in John 16 20 they don't yet grasp that their sorrow will be turned into joy Jesus knows that they are chosen but they must see him again after his resurrection to give them the full assurance in faith okay and then so after Jesus has left them the disciples will need to keep watch for false teachers and faith deniers and traitors and cut off vines they need to know how to identify them because remember they failed to identify Judas right now from from God's frame of reference God already knows the end from the beginning it was already confirmed that the disciples were chosen and ordained that their fruit should remain God already sees all of this but as for the disciples they can't see this they they can't see ahead of them okay and this is why Jesus has got to explain this stuff to him okay so so John 15 really you know when we start to conclude what we've what we've studied it's not teaching us that we can lose salvation rather it's showing us the journey and the separation of people who will or won't abide and continue in Christ okay because you know we won't know in all cases and it helps us to you know we can we can guess who really is or not saved because obviously you know we see that the the way that the word of God affects different people as the parable of the so you know the different types of people that the seed lands on you see how the word of God affects different people in different ways to some it sprouts onto everlasting life to others it doesn't so if a man does not abide in Christ he cannot continue to be part of the vine that is Christ he cannot love the brethren because the love of God does not abide in him he cannot benefit from hearing Christ's words because Christ's words have seemingly no beneficial effect on him you know just as a vine giving him water and nutrition it doesn't cause him to bring forth fruit he is a dead branch and as a dead or diseased branch he's only harmful to the rest of the tree that's why he must be cut off so he will be cut off he will wither he will be burned because he does not have life now if he had life as the abiding branches did then feeding water and nutrition should have resulted in fruit it did not and the reason it did not is because there is something fundamentally wrong with the branch it's dead or diseased for example it's not just lazy as it you know was working hard yesterday and it's become lazy today and it needs to try harder tomorrow that's not how this works okay that's not how growing fruit works and following how the disciples interpreted this then we can see why John says in his epistle not to receive the company or wish God's speed to somebody who does not abide in the doctrine of Christ because you know didn't Jesus tell John to love one another as I have loved you yes but this one another is very specific it's the branches that do abide and are attached John should not bid God's speed or receive a discontinuing person otherwise he's partaking in their evil deeds or you know their evil gospel after all such a person is a harm to the rest of the vine and it must be cut off because salvifically they are cut off from eternal life if they don't abide in the doctrines required for salvation that you have to believe on him and that I should lose nothing etc relationally they should be cut off from true believers if they hold to different doctrines about who Christ is you know I don't want to have a joint prayer meeting for example with somebody who prays to Mary right I don't want to have a Bible study meeting with somebody who is a heretic because the thing is we're not really going to be able to edify one another we're not going to be able to benefit from fellowship and so they need to be cut off from the vine they cannot abide with me on the vine right and looking at our aforementioned examples of individuals or groups that did not abide in Christ that the Catholic and Orthodox churches did not abide in Christ because while they claim to be the church that Christ founded they've altered his words they've altered his sayings they've altered his commandments something that Jesus commanded his disciples including Peter very specifically not to do if they ought to abide they don't abide in that they disobey that teaching Sarah Martin unfortunately did not continue in Christ's love because his love is that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us she eventually concluded that she is not a sinner and doesn't need saving it and I say that with a heavy heart you know because some people will say well why are you doing this about you know why not just try and reach out to her or pray for her was because if she won't acknowledge that she's a sinner there's nothing I can do for her I can't help her in any way that there is literally nothing I can do right but you know I'm not trying to be mean about it I do say that with a heavy heart because as somebody who knows the Bible you know to me it's tragic now she won't see it that way that's just the way that it is Christ words did not abide in EPUC unapologetics or the ironically named abide in the word that he's renamed his channel to because Christ words told him no man shall ever pluck them out of my hand and his response was well that says nothing about dot dot dot and so that that's just what about to read and he and the thing is I've exposed him doing this before he constantly misappropriates Christ commandments for different purposes than for which they were intended and he does not keep Christ commandments so if he can ask God to show him the truth seven ways until Sunday but if Christ words don't abide in him he has to modify or change or what about or misappropriate them then really he does not meet the criteria to ask what you will and it shall be done on to you and so if you were wondering earlier well how can somebody possibly ask God to help show them the truth and God doesn't answer them that prayer well I hope that kind of gives you an answer okay and you know it's not God's fault really so let's conclude the study with a diagram illustration in summary of what Christ is really saying okay so we're abiding in Christ we're attached to the vine the husbandman the father has to inspect the branch there's going to have to be a point in time whether the husbandman inspects the branch to see whether it brings forth fruit or not if it if it does he purred excuse me he purges it it brings forth more fruit if it doesn't he has to cut it off it brings nothing okay that there's there's an inspection time going on there so he that believes on me should not perish but have everlasting life this person meets the criteria for Christ's commitment that I should lose nothing Christ will not let this one be plucked out of his hand God has predestined him according to the his purposes this is the person that continues the person that doesn't continue well he was enlightened he tasted and then he fell away it's impossible to renew him onto repentance as Hebrews 6 says he believed in vain as 1 Corinthians 15 whatever belief he had here was a pointless belief it didn't amount to anything it didn't amount to any fruit on to eternal life he if he does believe in Jesus it's another Jesus it's another gospel as per 2nd Corinthians 11 it's not it's not the true vine he did not produce fruit at all the words of Jesus did not profit him onto the saving of his soul the words of Jesus were just completely useless to him it didn't profit him and he does not meet the criteria for Christ to lose nothing Christ is not obligated to keep this man in his hand because he doesn't meet the criteria okay and as I said to you before what what we don't have in John 15 is an example of a branch that produces fruit for a season and then suddenly stops producing you know fruit because the branch afterwards went bad or it's just too lazy we cannot apply such a concept and so if the conditional security advocate wants to invent this third type of branch well the bottom line is they're not abiding in Christ's words because Christ's words gave us two types of branches the one that abides and produces fruit and the one that doesn't abride and produces nothing they're the two options this branch that did produce fruit yesterday and doesn't today that's not what Christ described Christ didn't give us that example if you come up with that example to justify conditional security you are not abiding in Christ's words it's as simple as that just as we also have you know he who believes and he who believes not he who is saved and he who is condemned those who are his sheep and those who are not he who walks in the light he who walks in darkness we don't have somebody going between the two it's not there the we have two types of people and so to finish off I promise we're getting towards the end now because I've only got 17 slides left I know it's been a long study we must answer this ever-burning question if it doesn't automatically mean salvation what does it actually mean to be a branch in Christ because superficially if it sounds like it doesn't have any real meaning other than being figurative and doesn't really represent anything didn't we see clear scriptures you know near the beginning that various verses show that being in Christ equates to salvation now the thing is we must understand that John 15 is an illustration you are not literally a piece of wood with leaves sticking out of a vine okay so being a branch in Christ in this illustration is not the same thing as being in Christ in a more dogmatic verse that's specifically about eternal life and is not using an illustration okay it's very important that you understand that so given what we've learned in our study it's really not difficult to answer this question at all the answer is very simple we just stop and think about what we learned about plant growth and what abiding in the vine represents particularly about Jesus's words abiding in you and we can already really comprehend the answer okay just as a vine provides nutrients and water to the branches so Jesus who is the vine provides us his word okay which it's the word that needs to abide in us and he provides us his love which we need to continue in so that his joy will remain in us right that's that's the end goal there so like fruit a branch does not just suddenly appear okay it grows it takes time to grow the vine is feeding it the necessary nutrients and water to enable it to grow so stage one growth stage two growth you know it takes time for this branch to grow yeah and the vine is constantly giving these nutrients and water from the ground that it needs to grow this branch okay if it's too early a branch cannot grow fruit yet the husbandmen cannot cut it from the vine for being unfruitful because it's not fruiting season yet it's too early to check okay as we saw earlier in this study if there is something fundamentally wrong with the branch it will not produce fruit and not only will it not produce fruit it cannot produce fruit okay as Jesus said without me you can do nothing a branch dead or diseased no amount of nutrients or water can help it it might have to be cut off because of the health of the rest of the tree or the plant okay on the other hand if the branch remained healthy and received sufficient nutrients and water from the vine there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why it why it shouldn't produce fruit once it's in the proper season the branch itself is fruitful so the the branch abided until the necessary season it was confirmed that it was a good branch and not only did it produce fruit but if conditions were right it grew in abundance of fruit okay so a branch in Christ is somebody who is receiving the word and for a season at least he may even be growing in the word and knowledge thereof as the branch grows but for many unfortunately this won't amount to salvation there will be an ultimatum eventually okay you know Jesus said after all many shall say on to me that day Lord Lord few there be that find the narrow way to life many Christians will hear about different salvation perspectives but will never let go of some form of work salvation many Christians will fall into heretical groups and stay there or you know they just believe it because they've always believed it many Christians will fall away and stop believing in God many Christians will never ever read the whole Bible they will read bits of the Bible and hear bits in church but there will be many biblical concepts that are just simply alien to them or they will reject them and so you know following that you know many Christians still hold on to worldly points of view about politics or sin or judgment in the house of God and this doesn't in of itself make them unsafe but it's it's often a reflection of them being devoid in the Holy Spirit when you can show people things in the Bible well I don't agree with that there's something fundamentally wrong there is that they're wrestling against the words of God so as a side note then you might wonder well what about non-christians you know the atheists the Hindus the Muslims etc where do they fit in this pattern then but the thing is that there's no clear indication that they are as relevant to John 15 perhaps they're a bit more relevant in the parable of the sewer maybe if anything but this is more this is a more complicated category because some of them will never hear any biblical truth to a useful degree some of them will hear it as outsiders rather than insiders or their foreign ideas of various things will already plant anti-Christian ideas in them before they ever really know anything about Christ or what the Bible says now is there an allegorical application sure fine but ultimately Jesus is telling his closest disciples because they're going to encounter people in the ministry who seem like brethren for a season who will seem to be growing spiritually for a while but then for one reason or another will be cut off but it will take a while before this is actually manifest in the case of Judas it really wasn't until the time of his betrayal that this became manifest and so this is why the husbandman waits until a given season to check the fruit of the branch for different people this will manifest in different ways so for some Christians going through the motions of fellowship and going to church and then departing from the faith is how it is manifest to the rest of us that they did not continue for the disciples false prophets didn't always arrive to the faith false they participated in the true faith learned from the disciples gained more knowledge in the word but then at a later period it was then made known that they would preach heresy or turn against the apostles or draw disciples after themselves when they had the means of doing so for some Christians they will examine different points of view about the Bible but they may stick to one that they like the most irrespective of whether it's actually true or not some Christians will become so prideful in their own knowledge of the word or their own denominational traditions albeit in their false doctrines and the more knowledge they acquire the less inclined they are to listen to anybody who preaches a contrary view to what they believe because they just know the Bible so well many people unfortunately going to hear the word and before fruiting season they will grow in knowledge of the word but but never really be converted before cutting time essentially so if we consider the aforementioned examples of people who did not abide you know Sarah Marsden she was a branching Christ to an extent she participated in Christian fellowship she read the Bible she studied the Bible she prayed she tried to put her faith into action but upon realizing that she didn't agree with the concept of sin of judgment of salvation she realized she didn't believe and she now professes that she by her own words is much more fulfilled and thriving in life without without being a Christian so unfortunately she was never saved because Christ did not rise again as far as she was concerned if Christ didn't rise again she has believed in vain and I already answered this question you know why don't I reach out to her or try and win her over or something honestly it's because I don't have a faith strong enough to believe I could convince her because if we if somebody rejects stage one of the gospel that you are a sinner there's not really anything more I could do with that that kind of person and I think there is an aspect of well evangelism of not wasting your time just trying to bombard the same people over and over and over again you know even like the Bible says about heretics and maximum of two admonitions because there's a certain point where you keep bombarding people with stuff and they're not going to believe it and actually I had some dealing with somebody commenting on my channel the other day where he kept answering questions from a false premise and when I said that his premise was false or showed that his premise was false you just kept asking the same question as if I'd never answered it or as if his premise is already true and it there's just a point where you realize I'm wasting my time because no matter how I explain it you're either not going to get it or even even twisted what I said and changed what I actually said in his rebuttals and so if you're going to do that like I can't really engage with you and there's no point me trying to help you anymore. Again Epucee on apologetics or the ironically named Abide in the Word now he was a branching Christ when he was studying the word and questioning the doctrines that he previously believed but he was never saved because according to his testimony he measured his salvation according to his works performance and he continues to do to this day and I'm not I think now that he knows the Bible as well as he does and the amount of material that he's done and he's even said I knew that I would dedicate myself to the teaching of work you know doing works I'm not convinced that no amount of evangelism no amount of answering the scriptures that he constantly straw man's is ever going to get him saved he has had rebuke from multiple free grace believers he tried asking questions like he did his silly Hebrews 5 9 challenge or something and plenty of people answered him but all he did in response he just straw man the people who tried to answer him he made false claims about what free grace actually believes he is given over to his another gospel his another Jesus the real Jesus said no man shall ever pluck them out of his hand he has to find excuses and exemptions by going to non salvific passages and so that you know I mean he's welcome to prove me wrong if he wants to get saved he is welcome to prove me wrong at any time and I will make a public apology but until that happens I'm not convinced he's ever going to be saved he's given over to this he he's been cut off as far as I'm concerned and of course we have biblical examples you know Judas Iscariot was with Christ for several years he was surrounded by Jesus closest and most zealous disciples he heard Christ's teachings firsthand I mean that's a privilege more than most other other men that have ever lived on the planet okay he had that amazing privilege not only did he remain in unbelief he willingly stayed for the purpose of being a traitor the disciples in John 6 were branches in Christ for a season while they dedicated themselves to his teaching and followed him as he did his ministry and he gave them his teaching but they didn't really believe as the 11 did it just wasn't known in the sight of man until the events of John 6 when they were finally choked on his teaching that that they would not continue but Jesus already foresaw this and when a branch is cut off it's it's withered it's burned and so this would suggest that there is virtually no hope for it after that point and this is perhaps why Hebrews 6 says if they are enlightened if they are tasted but then fall away it is impossible to renew them onto repentance okay and don't misunderstand this as being an age thing you know that a Christian who's been unsafe for 20 years is unsalvageable sometimes you know for some people it just takes a lot longer than other people for fruit to grow and to to be made known but you know think about this though when was the last time a very well-known theologian or church minister or evangelist I'm talking about really well-known people like famous people you know you're John McArthur's of this world you're John Piper's and that can you ever imagine a well-known lordship teacher or something converting in the final hours of their life right can you ever imagine a conditional security street screamer like Jesse Morel or Abide in the Word ever changing their position and getting saved you can't really it's you know when was the last time that ever happened it's super rare that that ever happens and it's very unlikely that Sarah Martin will at this point ever become a Christian again because studying the Bible actually led her to rejecting the faith not accepting it and she is now it by her own words much more fulfilled in her non-Christian life and so really the Bible just has nothing to offer for her really now this I know this sounds like I'm ending our study on a negative when I've been so adamant before that this passage is supposed to be an encouragement so you know perhaps you are wondering you know now I'm worried that what if I don't abide in Christ what if I end up being cut off well the thing is if you're asking this question I think it's kind of fair to say that you're not cut off you know it's kind of like the people ask what if I've blasphemed the spirit well if you blaspheme the spirit you wouldn't be asking if you blaspheme the spirit probably you've listened this far into the study which means you're at least willing to listen you're willing to hear these you know arguments presented from the Bible now whether you would end up agreeing with them or not is between you and God I can't help you with that but you know if you love Christ and you believe him in what he said you are a branch that is growing and the goal of this salvation series is to help you grow so that in time if you're not fully confident in Christ you will reach that point you will bring forth fruit to the saving of your soul that hopefully one day you will get other people saved you know Christ spoke to his closest disciples and he did not leave them comfortless he solidified their faith when he rose again and we can know in hindsight that he defeated death and all you have to do is believe on him and trust what when he says that I am the father in the father in me and I should lose nothing you just have to believe him when he says it that's all he's asking you to do really and so yes those of us who are saved we mourn when we see people who don't abide and fall away and it you know it breaks our heart inside but unfortunately that that is something that's between them and God they've heard the word of truth they've rejected it so you know don't let that be you and God already foreknows those who would be saved he's already predestined them and chosen them and so yes there will be many who fall away but there will be many who don't too and regarding the branches who bear fruit God will receive his first fruits as he gathers his people onto himself and if you've been following my John series up to now John has set us up for everything we need to abide he has given us Christ words in the stories and the dialogues he recorded you know he recorded cry saying believe on me have everlasting life this is a simple instruction there is nothing complicated about this whatsoever he recorded in his gospel cry saying unto us I give unto them eternal life and I should lose nothing and I will in no wise cast out so believe him when he says it and stop making excuses as to why might lose you or you might walk away just stop adding exceptions to the words that Christ gave stop trying to cancel out Christ words about eternal life using passages that aren't talking about the subject so don't negate salvation passages with non-salvation passages with these books and what aboutaries okay and so I'm going to conclude our study there because this study has been exceptionally long and you know cooled us to those of you that have listened this far in it's been very mentally exhausting putting this material together because it's just such a difficult chapter and we've barely unpacked half of it I've not even finished the latter half of the chapter it's just such a complicated chapter and you know people might disagree with some of the stuff that I've said about this which is fine because again it's so cryptic in a way so we haven't covered the latter half of this chapter what I'm going to do is though there is more that I could have said about that in the middle of it but I'm going to join that with chapter 16 so when I do a study on John chapter 16 I'll just do the latter half of 15 as well because really that that part of the conversation really more belongs to John 16 anyway you know I wouldn't quite re I wouldn't quite change the chapter number where the whoever made that decision did so that's just one of those things but if you think there's something that I've missed please do let me know in the comments this is such a complex chapter so you know a bit of iron sharpening iron would help me too I'm not sure how long it would take but you know stay tuned for the latter half of chapter 15 and 16 hopefully in a few weeks you know very soon but I might have to put it on the back burner for a while because I want to start getting material done for a second documentary so you know I'd like to prioritise that leading up to Christmas and I'm just a bit busy with work at the moment as well