 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by Brian Bedsen of dial-tune drums Brian welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having me Bart Yeah, this is really cool because I'm fortunate enough to say that I have been using a dial-tune snare for the last I Guess it would be about a month or so maybe a little longer that you sent me to check out and I am just like Seriously blown away by the thing It is so awesome But that is very modern and we're gonna go back earlier in history because I Think a lot of people realize that this type of cable drum cable tuning cable tension It goes back a really long time, but maybe people think it's it's a new invention So let's educate people about the actual history of this type of tuning. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely Barton I'm glad you've had it and had a chance to play with it and Experience it for yourself We had a ton of fun developing this over the last several years. I mean some of it spent funds some of it's been been challenging and Anxiety inducing and all all of the above and we'll get into that a little bit later, but yeah, the idea of cable tensioning Rope tensioning rope tuning, you know all these terms that we use basically to describe a drum that is tensioned Via some form of rope or cable is is not new in and of itself, right? I mean and this is something that when people look at dial tune they encounter it for the first time One of the biggest questions we get I mean on a regular basis is how has nobody thought of this before, right? Why doesn't this already exist and And my answer often as well, you know, it does exist. It's just that Modern technology modern materials modern manufacturing processes have finally caught up and allowed it to function in a way That enhances the drumming experience rather than detracting from it, right? And that's something interesting that we can talk about a little bit more too, but I mean rope tuned drums Basically, that's where it started And you know this you've hosted the drum history podcast you're probably more fluent on the history of cable tune or rope tune than I am but when we go back and look at the history of drums other than hitting a hollow cylinder or a shell or bone The first time that humans started attaching a head to the drum or we would consider a head today Whether that's an animal skin or some kind of thin membrane over the top of a cylinder They were using ropes. They were using hide. They were using kind of crude twine and You know, it's fascinating about this is that as far as I can tell in my research This wasn't something that developed In one place it seems like it's developed parallel across culture. Yeah You know indigenous people from all over the world have these types of drums In their in their history and we're using hide we're using twine. We're using Bits of whatever material they had to attach skins to a shell and it's really fascinating to see that development and You know, some people would trace some of the the very first cable tuned or rope tuned drums to China way back You know ad I think I think 2300 ad is was what I read At one point. I mean they've been around a long time and then of course We think about field drums. That's kind of the where people's mind goes of where my mind would go I think about cable tuning you got that classic field drum look with the crisscrossing ropes Going from one head to the other and so I think as we talk about the history of cable tuning The other thing I'd like to talk about in relation to what we've pursued at dial tune is is also the history and development of The idea of single-point tensioning. Yeah, that to me is what and there's another episode that'll probably be up before this one with Bill Whitney of Calderwell percussion who it's gonna be a lot about Rope tension like which you know before we even Started this I didn't really put those together in my mind of cable tune and rope tension and it makes perfect sense but I guess really the you know the the unique thing that we're talking about in actuality is single a single point of tension which it's very You just when I hear that I think of and I'm probably getting ahead of myself But I think of like the technology back in the day where you'd hear about guys just you tighten it to the point where it strips the screws Like right it didn't catch up with Like everything you said at the beginning of this it hadn't caught up with the actual Hardware to be able to maintain this type of tension Which exactly so so yeah on that note there then then the single point of tension What is the earliest example of of that? That's a really good question and I think you know single point tension the idea of being able to Tune quote-unquote and we can talk a little bit about the difference between tuning a drum tension in the drum But to apply tension to a drum head from a single point in some ways it's kind of like the holy grail of Drum development and so many people over the years and over the decades have been after this concept because it just makes sense You have 12 points of engagement on some, you know snare drums with all the different lugs or Down to one point and it just I think that's been something of a Of a challenge that that people have tried to solve for a long long time in various embodiments So we can talk about both I think in parallel And I'm gonna go ahead and cite my sources here too because I'm not a historian I'm a learner right along with you and your audience. I love Love this stuff. I'm fascinated by it But I'm looking at the Vienna Symphonic Library and they have a really interesting kind of concise history of Drums that I found to be really interesting And helpful for this conversation. So You know talking about specifically rope tune or cable tune and by the way a Little secret and not so much a secret but just to clarify we call dial tune a cable tune drum and The cable we use is actually a Kevlar braided rope. So it's actually a rope tune draw and we've used those words kind of interchangeably and I think for the sake of just Sticking with one term. Yeah, we use the word cable typically a cable is made out of metal, right? It's a twisted metal And and rope is more of a synthetic material, but Those two words are kind of we use them interchangeable we started with cable with actual steel cable when we were prototyping and The term stuck and you know, there are some other companies on the market that Familiar with Welsh tuning systems and some of the other brands out there And they use an actual steel cable So we just kind of we stuck with it because it was something that started to be recognized in the industry Yeah, and I don't know it When you hear rope tension if you read it it just put something different in your mind and and the the inner workings Just looking at your snare from the side where you see the like the system where you're turning a dial to to tune it it I don't know cable tension feels more What it is versus like even if it is rope it definitely feels more More like that, but yeah, okay. So yeah, it feels a little more future Yeah versus sort of yeah retro. We didn't want to put that confusing piece and in people's heads to you So and maybe we've made it more confusing. I don't know. No, we're here to clarify But cable tune and rope tune, you know, we're kind of using those terms fairly interchangeably Okay during our conversation today But some of the earliest examples of sort of the field drum marching snare rope tune drums It came out of medieval Europe in the 14th century They were called tabars or taboors. I think I'm saying that correctly and You know, that was the first time that that people actually attached snare wires to a drum And often they were on the top of the head instead of the bottom But we see the example of that classic crisscross Rope and it would have been animal hide Yeah with the calf skin or sheepskin head now, is there a reason to get a little more scientific with it I guess it it would have to be where you'd have to do the kind of crisscross to get even tension, right? because I guess no matter what you're doing you need to get even tension across the drum and I Guess you just you have to do that, right? Yeah, and I think I mean part of it was Even even beyond tension just holding the drum head to the drum shell Sure, you know lug lugs had not come along yet So there wasn't even really a reference or a concept for Something being mounted to the center of the shell You know that was really developed later with the the invention of the the tensioning screw and tension rods And so prior to that it was we just need to hold these two heads together yeah on the drum and And the best way to do that is just put a rope around between the heads and Then make it as tight as you can and back then it was you know, I imagine a combination of twisting it Soaking it so that it would shrink, you know these sorts of things it was very limited in terms of control and What you could actually do with with evening the tension or even setting your desired pitch You're kind of limited to what you were working with and and how the head stretched and how it Tanned and how it you know, how the Sun impacted it and he impacted it. You may I mean these were very You weren't you weren't looking for a specific pitch. You were just trying to get a hollow sound out of yeah Something that sounds somewhat decent Exactly. Yeah, okay very very crude but kind of where it all all started. Yeah Well, okay, so what I'd love to kind of focus on is obviously that's really you know That's in that kind of rope tension world obviously, which is great But I'd love to hear Kind of focus on the when do we get to the like I almost want to call it like mad scientist like quest for Incredibly unique types of tuning that like look like almost like a Like robotic if you open them on the inside, which obviously I'm sure newer than the 1400s So I sent you Bart and this is kind of fun. I love when we did our initial patent search And of course, you know, you have an idea and the first thing is you know Who else has thought about this and how far have they gotten? Yeah in in terms of developing it So we do this broad patent search and we found the most fascinating Contraptions I sent you a couple pictures there so you can have reference in front of you. Yep. Let's just go through some Yeah, it is like you said it's almost like one of them looks like a medieval torture device Seriously The lengths that people went to to try and solve this single point tensioning Dilemma are pretty fun. Yeah, so the first the first really interesting patent that we found during our search It was developed in or is filed in March 9th of 1858 so a while back and That's a gentleman named cm Zimmerman and it's the Zimmerman drum Um, and you can see I sent you the drawings there, but when you look at it I mean it at first glance it looks like your traditional Kind of civil war era field drum. You've got the ropes that go from the bottom to the top And you've got those little leather straps or bands that they would use to cinch the ropes Um in the middle there tight tight or loose I'm using that little leather strap What's unique about Zimmerman Is this is the first time that I'm aware That you see pulleys actually being applied to the system Which pulley is now that I see it. I'm like boy, that seems like a really integral part of Even modern systems is you have to kind of go over something like a simple machine kind of like Uh, it just seems like to this day. It's it's got to be a part of it to to make it work So at the end of the day, you know, what dial tune is is nothing more than a glorified, uh Pulleys system, right? I mean We use rope. We use pulleys. We use a tensioner The elements that are there are nothing new in and of themselves. They've all been applied at various times in different points to Um two drums But really it's a combination of those elements. It's the unique configuration the way that they're aligned It's the materials that are used. It's the tolerances Um That that make it work or not and what we discovered in our process in the prototyping process is that If you're ever so slightly often any one of those elements, it doesn't work flat out. Just does not It sounds bad. It doesn't apply even tension. It doesn't work smoothly There's so many things that we had to go through in hurdles. We had to overcome to take what relatively a very relatively simple concept and turn it into something that Functions in a way that actually enhances this the the playing experience rather than detracting from it. So yeah Zimmerman's the earliest example of that kind of concept of putting a pulley on a drum Um, and it's really interesting when you're looking it back 1858 I'm imagining these kind of pulleys were relatively relatively new at least in that size, you know in that style that are strong enough and Um, like brian said just to describe it to people and I can I can share these documents in the actual show notes that You know you can click on on the description, but basically it's you know, uh, I guess where the Rope would go up and normally tension on to the rim or the hoop or whatever it would be There's a little pulley there where it's And then at one point which I don't really see it on this drawing But I'm assuming that must meet somewhere where you are turning something to Um to tension it Uh and make it stay and I'm sure that this is 1858 It probably lost its tension and you're fighting with the drum head itself. That's animal skin. Um, so great idea, but It obviously didn't revolutionize. Um You know, it didn't stick that much and I'm sure as the civil war, you know Is in that kind of time frame there pretty close It probably wasn't practical to get these you know tens thousands of these churned out for people to use Um, so it probably got right could have been just bad timing, you know Could have been bad timing. He was a little bit ahead of his time in terms of the concept. Um But yeah, you know, I don't see and I've read through this patent too There's there's not actually a tensioning element Other than those rope or those leather straps on the side And that was just traditional, right? That's what they had. That's what they knew and so I guess the idea behind the pulleys was to make it a little more even. I think to your point earlier about How do we how do we adjust these ropes and make sure that it's even and I think the pulleys were kind of his attempt to To accomplish that but still not single point tension. Yeah necessarily because you're still moving the um God I forget what they're called the ears. I think on the where you move them up the little like, uh You know, that's how you tension a rope tension drum. So yeah, that's crazy. He doesn't have That it's just a uh But the idea the idea is there So the idea that if we could just get a little less friction in the system Maybe, you know, it'll start to even out that that tone. Yes. So we give c.m. Zimmerman a An a for effort, but he was missing a couple elements. I mean for being that early It's uh, he gets a participation award Yeah, I love it. No, it was fun to come across that patent in particular. Yeah Another interesting one here we have is is from I mean we jump ahead Um, significantly about 60 years. So this is January 24th, uh 1950 And this one is kind of a crazy steam punk looking collection of I mean it's like I'm just imagining the weight of all these different parts and materials inside of a drum and dial tunes a heavy drum, but Well, I imagine that yeah, and this is a billy gladstone invention. So it says at the top right wd gladstone um and to All right, so you you have the like brain for this again for it for audio purposes What is going on here? Well, it took me a minute to figure that out too and and I've looked at this patent quite a bit You know essentially What we have is a fixed head. So the head is is kind of mounted to the The drum and I'm not even sure how it's attached it. It may be um clamped on or or even I don't know potentially um Collude on or permanently attached because you don't see there's no lugs. There's no Bolts, there's no hoop or counter hoop. The head's just attached to the shell And then all of the the tuning or tensioning is happening internal. So this whole system sits inside the drum shell And it is a complicated series of there's a there's a knob on the right hand side. So you see okay We're getting a little closer. Here's an attempt at what I would consider a single point tuning or single point tensioning system Because you have a single knob on the side of the drum And then you have this lever as well. So it seems like maybe the lever and the knob have two different functions, but basically from what we can tell and and just to describe a little further there's uh What looks like a little beater head or something almost like a base drum beater at the top and the bottom Pressing up against the drum head from the inside Almost I mean that when you say it sounds like a muffler, but I guess it's more to like push on it to give Tension would be the idea That's what I'm that's what I'm gathering and and having read through it and looked at it. Yeah, I think it's the idea is those little um almost look like mufflers or series of of pads Pushing up against the head the idea is well if you turn the knob You're pulling on these series. I mean there's there's chains There's gears. There's rope. There's all these different things that kind of work in concert. I guess. Yeah together to apply pressure from the inside of the Drum against that drum head Which would change the tension. Yeah Um, but I imagine you're also like to your point gonna get a significant muffling effect to you I don't I don't know that this would have sounded Very good. And then I I'm just the rattling and the Everything else with all that hardware. Yeah, I can see why this didn't really ever take off. No, and um, you know, I'm also curious and you probably know about it too about, um I've seen one in person, but there's the um I'm trying to find a picture of the inside and how it works But very I think it's right in the the fifties which kind of when I think of the fifties. I think of like I think of this type of like exploring phase and um And maybe even before that they had the single Like only the top head is tunable the bottom or tack head. So it's like Right, it's like it's evolved into like, you know, uh, you don't get to tune at all. It's tacked on You get to you get to tune the top head. Okay, you can tune the bottom head. Um, okay We're gonna coast through with world war two. Okay. We're in the fifties. Let's go nuts here and like Right experiment and then in the fifties. I know there's also, um The knob tension like a leady had one which would have been george way Which I don't want to get ahead or whatever, but it seems simultaneous to like that it would be Gladstone and george way. I'm sure other people too, but those are the big like Mad scientist kind of guys exactly and uh, and then a little bit later We have arbiter. Yes. And so that's one that we can talk about as well and Same thing going after how do we tension this thing from a single point? Yeah And then it's worth talking about why those systems did or did not take off and some of them had a decent following in their day And then just faded and some of it was more internal stuff To the company and some of it was just it never really took off with the Customers. Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, it is fascinating. The fifties are that sort of golden era of you know Companies had a little bit more money in their pockets Manufacturing processes had really come a long way post war Yeah And so that was a good time for people to just try stuff now Do you know so while we're on that fifties with the Gladstone? And then I guess a little bit on the knob tension. Do you know was the knob tension Leedy stuff. Did you research that at all? Is that a similar? um type of system I've never opened one and seen it, but I would imagine it's got sort of a similar system of tension Yeah, and so I mean Bart. Yeah your point about Leedy It kind of that that time frame as well Compared to something like this Gladstone. I mean obviously, um, it was a lot more streamlined It was a lot closer to something that would actually be really functional and usable I've never held one of the Leedy systems in my hand But I know people who've played them and said that they actually they worked pretty well Um, especially initially But maybe they weren't they weren't built to last or they just because it was a new concept It was sort of still in that developmental phase and and had some bugs that needed to be worked out Um But the idea then going towards how can we sort of build the tension system into the hoop? So We're right with Gladstone. You see it's all internal to the drum and the emphasis is on The system taking place inside the drum itself. Yeah um, and you've got kind of the beginnings of some sort of Chains or cables or ropes being used Um, yeah, where Leedy is much more focused on how do we how do we adjust it at the hoop? Uh, but from a single point Yeah, and from what I've seen and just kind of I've saw I saw one in person at the Chicago show Two years ago or whenever that was the last time Uh, people saw each other and it uh, I guess it's different too because I believe it's still like almost like an internal lug Like it was like it was like knob tension for each Point of tension around the drum. So it's not technically I guess a single tension it's more of a It would be knob tension, but there's multiple knobs around the drum So that is different. I guess then then what we're what we're talking about but sort of the same in in theory It's just another step in that direction for sure. Um, and I think I think we mentioned arbiter second one arbiter would be The next step even after Leedy getting closer and closer to single point because with arbiter You actually had a single point tension Um and arbiter came out of england ivar arbiter was the the kind of Founder who brought these drums to popularity and they they were actually quite popular For a period of time you can still find them Um second hand and I know a couple guys that own them I think you know basically, um Best way to describe arbiter if you haven't seen one is it's You have your hoop and then you have another Adjustable hoop that it's kind of on a clamp system that clamps around the internal hoop that sits on top of the drum head and uh, you know The best way to get to describe it is you turn a screw on one side of this, uh, adjustable clamp That as you turn it it pushes it closes the clamp tighter and tighter But the way that it's designed to rest on the internal hoop is that it actually pulls down Simultaneously, it's kind of a unique and and really ingenious idea and system. Yeah kind of reverse of what you think like pulling down like the pushing up and the as opposed to like you think of just like always pulling down and and tensioning Right. Yeah, it's kind of counterintuitive. Um, yeah, and and it seemed to work pretty well Uh, I I think that there's obviously some limitations in terms of um How quickly you can do it and and I think it can be a little bit of a struggle to get the thing on and off Yeah, I mean, it's a cool idea and I should say too that iver arbiter is is also kind of famous for um, he's claimed with uh designing the original drop tee beetles logo um Which is really cool. That has nothing to do with what we're talking about because he's he found a drum city And he's come up in in a couple episodes about british drums and um, so When was the arbiter when was it's like time frame? Yes, the arbiter was 60s. It looks okay That's cool. That's very cool. It uh From what i've seen and it's probably more in in england, um They still are around and they're still pretty available and they're not that expensive I mean, yeah, i'm sure they're still pretty cool to experiment with and and mess around with Yeah, they're neat drums, you know, and I think um arbiter probably faced just with that product in in particular Uh, some of the challenges we found, you know in launching in launching dial tune and that's that And i'm i'm guilty of this. I'm a drummer. I'm i'm a traditionalist, right? Like I was the last person in my high school to get a cell phone like If it's not broke, don't fix it. Like I I drive an old truck stick shift like just keep it simple don't over complicate things and so You know, we found that introducing something new a new concept to the drum community is a challenge because you're met with skepticism You know, and I think most people At nam that was our experience. They walk by the booth. They kind of look at it and They'd be curious and and if you could get them into the booth and then uh, hey, man I know it looks like a lot. It's really different. Just give it a try just play it Yeah, and you see the light bulb moment the bass would light up java drop and it was just like Oh my gosh, you have to experience it to believe it. But yeah, we're skeptics. Oh, yeah I want to when we get to the Today with you guys I I want to talk about that too because I got some comments from people that were like that about um Oh, hey, here's a cool video that'll show you how to tune a drum and I'm like, it's not that I don't know how to tune a Drum, you know, right? It's like it's a different thing, but we'll get there This episode is brought to you by dream symbols. I want to talk a little bit about the dream symbols recycling program The recycling program is simple Bring your broken or unwanted symbols all brands accepted into your local dream dealer And you can earn one dollar for every inch of symbol you bring in towards the purchase of a new dream symbol For example, bring in two 20 inch symbols for recycling and receive $40 off the price of a new dream symbol It's that easy They in turn take the symbols recycled and use them to create new products like the re effects crop circles and the naughty saucers Check them out online at dream symbols.com and follow them on social media at dream symbols We've got another patent picture here. So where do we go from there? I believe we've got another kind of tension to jump ahead to right Yeah, and so this one was fun another one that we kind of dug up during our patent search 1965 And it's actually it's not even related to to drums specifically it's a it's a banjo head tightener so You know, most of us are familiar with banjos and how they actually have a drum body that you tune or tension and Someone set out this guy j. A. O. Sloan Decided he was going to make that process a little bit easier and a little bit more simple And so when you look at it, I mean the first thing that jumps to mind when I'm looking at this picture is like rototop Exactly It's got a really similar look similar internal kind of frame mechanism on it. You twist it to to tension it Um, but as you can see also it uses this series of cables and it almost looks like a bike tire Yes, it's like these spokes Spokes of the wheel that are these ropes or cables that go into this A kind of a take-up spool in the middle. So A little bit of a hybrid between what we consider when we think about rototom And and sort of a cable tensioning system. Yeah That's interesting, you know, like it's crazy that I've never really First off, I think maybe in general the rototom doesn't get enough credit. I think everyone loves the rototom, but like Most people have a set of rototoms sitting around and like You just rarely use them that much. I mean, they're really cool. You set them up. You pull them out. You use them Okay, that's awesome. But as a Type of tension. I mean that never even occurred to me that that really is a Single point of tension. I mean, you're just you're turning. It's genius really you're you're twisting and it's it's a brilliant concept To your point, right rototoms are really great for what they are and for what you would use them for But they're a little bit just limited to that Another great example of this this rotating Concept for single point tensioning is of course furchi And if you're familiar are you familiar with furchi snares at all? So furchi is a fun one and actually I I was on their website this morning looking at them again. They just relaunched um, which is really interesting and they were Kind of came to fruition. I think in the you know early to mid 90s or early 2000s is when it first sort of showed up on the scene Um They had a couple bigger named drummers that were kind of promoting them a little bit talking about them and It's a really interesting concept. It's it's built in so it's an all-in-one system That's really unique to their drum. They have their own proprietary shells That have more of a cone shape to them. They're not They're not so cylindrical and sort of a typical shell fashion. They kind of taper towards the top so almost more shape like a um Yeah, like a cone or like a A short sort of volcano. Yeah, these are in shape pretty wild looking They're pretty wild and then you have You have rods That you attach the the top drum head to and they have Tension rods on them. So you do set the initial tuning with those rods And then and then to tighten it you just you rotate it So there's that rototom kind of experience of spinning the drum. Yeah to change the the tension or the pitch on the top head Wow It's really fun. It's an interesting concept. Um, I've seen them I've heard them. They they sound pretty good. I mean, they're they're very much a unique sound and they're very much, um Limited to what they are that shell and that material. Um, yeah, man, it's it's um It's definitely very unique looking. I mean really it looks I mean, these are really cool looking drums But it it looks straight up like a road like a rototom frame. I mean it Probably is what it is. I would imagine for like the prototype but um There's something to be said about like Very unique looking drums a snare drum, which is like that's like our bread and butter Where with dial tune with you guys what I think is really cool is it looks Obviously, it's got the knobs on the side, but it looks like a regular snare for for the most part whereas this Is like very unique the fur chi. I mean Which which sometimes people maybe wouldn't want to have a really crazy unique standout snare drum Even if it's really nice and cool to tension it like that, but um, because these are These are pretty uh, pretty far out says they're made in new york, which is cool. I'm surprised. I've never heard of that It's unbelievable that this this fucking show. There's so much more to learn Yeah, we came across these uh, like I said a couple years ago And then it looked like the company had closed and I just saw that they it looks like they just relaunched the website says, uh Yeah, copyright 2021 um And You know, I think part of it is it's still it's going after that same concept of how do we Quickly adjust pitch. How do we get a sound a specific sound in a short amount of time? um in a certain situation and and do that with ease and Of course one of the limitations I think about the fur chi drum is it it's only dealing with the top head Oh, so you're not you're not really adjusting that inner player that relationship between the top and bottom heads But to your point about our drum looking like a snare drum, you know, that was something that uh Was critical to us. We're trying to we're trying to move the craft forward But we're also trying to respect and honor the history and the process of drums. We love drums I I have so many drums with tension rods. I'm not getting rid of any of them I'll keep them. I'll use them. I'll play them and and you know And I think that that's something that again with sort of the drummer mentality of being a being traditionalists And being sort of really proud and protective of the heritage of drums We get pushback. Sometimes people are like, well, what are you trying to do? Are you trying to rewrite the game you trying to get rid of tension rods? I said, no You know, ultimately what we're trying to do is create a compelling alternative To the traditional system, which we still love and use every day. So Tension rods work. They're not broken What we're doing is we're creating something that still sounds like a snare drum looks like a snare drum plays like a snare drum But offer some unique advantages Especially in given situations like session work Recording, you know, and we'll talk a little bit more about the the purpose behind it and the problems that we're trying to solve but But yeah, we're not trying to cancel one out in favor of another We're just trying to create an alternative and that's kind of what furgy looks like as well It's a unique alternative. It's almost its own classification of instrument. Yeah, uh, to some extent. Yeah, it really is Yeah, it's kind of like the uh electric car where people are like Well, you're trying to get rid of my gas. You're trying to get rid of my car. It's like, well, no, it's just a different, uh Sort of different mode different mode. No one's taking your car We actually right we actually compared a lot to uh to the automatic transmission You know, I mean I still drive a stick shift. Like I said There's some advantages to that, uh, but you look at what automatic transmissions have done for the auto industry and Uh the convenience and some of the other factors there. It's not a perfect comparison because yeah, I really enjoy manual Yeah, stick shifts is more fun For sure more fun. Yeah, where I would I would argue that actually I think dial tune can be more fun Sometimes that's true. It's at your odds, but uh, yeah, it's kind of that that mindset We would love it to be ultimately the vision for dial tune is to see as an option Um On any kit on any size on any style of drum that you would purchase. Yeah, okay All right. So as we're getting closer to like modern, uh, you guys dial tune Anything else in the history portion that we should cover that you've uh, you know, cool stuff you've come across Yeah, there's a couple things that have happened more recently. Um There's a company called page drums that did some cool rope tuning drums, uh, and and they were using pulleys So pulley and rope and it has that again that traditional crisscross pattern But it's just a bit of a modernized version of that field drum Looked to it and they were uh They I'm not sure if they're still in existence, um, but they're they were building drums You know 10 or so years ago And you can find their kits floating around to you and They if you're into vintage or retro kind of throwback stuff, they they can be pretty cool. Be a fun collector kit to have and then of course, uh Welsh tuning is the other in the cable tuning More modern cable tuning a range that that you know, they came out I think they were at NAM. We were at NAM in 2017 with a really rough prototype and we can get into some of the history about team will hear more of that story, but we had a basically a proof of concept and it looked very different from what we have in front of us today, but um, we did our our kind of demo and and showed it off and we got feedback and we Took notes from all the drummers that we encountered at NAM and just really wanted to make sure that we were doing something that was going to benefit the drumming community and again like Prototyping is is expensive r&d is is expensive. It's it's time consuming it costs a lot of money and so In time and effort so we wanted to make sure that if we were going to commit to this That it was really what drummers wanted. Yeah, and so Uh getting that feedback was super valuable. But we were there in 2017 and then I think we took 2018 off to r&d And well showed up in 2018. That's when we first saw them and they think that's when they launched Um And again looking at welsh. It's kind of basically looks like the page drum but with cables steel cables Polis and a single point tensioning. That's when you actually get you know, another company that's using a single point of of tension using a worm gear mechanism to tighten the cables now Again the distinguishing factor between welsh in our system currently is that their cable runs from head to head And so it tunes both heads simultaneously Um As well similar to the old field drums Cool, you know, I got to say too that I think it's cool You are bringing that up because I've had lots of episodes where people will will literally not mutter the name of a competitor Um So it's cool that you are doing that because in anything in life. There's going to be other companies doing something similar. Um, which You know, whatever that it happens. Just you you should be able to stand alone on your Your great idea and your great system and quality. So, um, you know, that's cool. Well and and look, you know, we I've met sam He's a great guy, um, you know, the music industry in industry is small And when you're at nam, you run into people and and it was fun to talk to him because the way that he kind of developed his concept, um, I think we're we're very like-minded people and Uh, he's he's just a down-to-earth likeable dude. And so yeah, it's we're competitors in the sense that we both have a product in the cable tuning space um, but It's also unique enough and distinguished enough that they're they're two very different systems. Um Trying to accomplish a similar, you know outcome for a drummer, but I think there's enough nuance to to allow for both to exist at this point. So yeah Yeah, and it draws attention to cable tuning, which is really kind of beneficial. I think mutually. Yeah, exactly where You know, it's uh, they definitely are different. Um, the the wts drums and dial tune, um, which is welch tuning systems. Um, but you know, um I guess the biggest obstacle at this point would be getting people to You know, I don't want to say convert. It's not like again, we're trying to take it away But it's getting people to be comfortable with it. So Um, all right. So as we're now kind of at that more modern time and we can talk about dial tune um So you said that you really though your like finished product Final drum shipping is is really pretty recent right within the last year or two We launched officially our product in uh in january of 2020 man Well, so bad timing for obvious. I mean, it's great timing, but the whole world shutting down is not No one wants that but I mean, I feel like you know, you're either gonna buy one or you're not whether whether it's Corona virus or or anything. So uh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, we uh We were at this in terms of development. Um, we've been at it for a long time. Um, you know, we were my very first NAM show was uh 2016 summer NAM And we went there with a a prototype that Didn't work frankly, it was yeah We ended up shelving it and we just stood it at the booth My friend alexander one of the co-founders and I And handed out three by five cards with a render on it asking people what they thought of the idea Oh, cool. I mean, that's where we were it was like we showed up We had uh, we had spent a bunch of money on this, uh rnd product manufacturing company to help us kind of take my original concept and bring it across the line And long story short, they just they dropped the ball big time and did not deliver We ended up getting a box of parts that did not fit together that we were trying to make work the night before the show Wow, it was it was a nightmare and uh, and we just said look are we showing up tomorrow empty handler? What are we gonna do? and uh And and we ended up going and just passing out cards and asking people what they thought of the concept and and of course the Number one question is well, where is it? Yeah, I'll check it out. Where is it? Yeah, I'd love to give my hands on it But you know, it's interesting was uh the feedback that we got and the enthusiasm about the initial idea was so strong And so overwhelming that that just was the fuel to the fire that we needed to keep going Yeah And to take the next step and the next risk and And so yeah to back up a little bit dial tune was something that that really was born out of An idea inspiration. I had in you know In college actually when I was uh, well just graduated college. I graduated in 2009 So you talked about you know, 2020 kind of a tricky time to launch a product. Yeah, also not great in 2008 2009 2009 was a tough time to you know to to graduate and and expect to step into to the world and and You know, you're young and starry eyed and I'm not here to you know to speak poorly on education I think it's a wonderful thing and a great privilege and opportunity to have gone to college, but You kind of had this expectation coming out the door like yeah, I've got a degree now Like I'm gonna be hired and start working. Yeah 2009 that was that was a tricky time to step out into the world much like I'm sure a lot of Young people are feeling today as they're Graduating and seeing kind of the economic climate we're in. Yeah so, um So personally it was it was an interesting time. I I I felt like an adult and yeah, I found myself moving back home with my parents and Sleeping in my old bedroom like so many of us were at that time And parking cars as a valet to try and Make as much money as I could uh, you know part time and The beauty of that was it gave me a lot of time To to think and to You know, I've always been someone that Is a problem solver and a tinkerer, you know, I used to rebuild motorcycles and my garage my parents garage and So I've always been fascinated by how things work I was also a drummer and and so this this kind of idea of single point tension this idea of how can I how can I take something and And so you know, I think if I can apply myself to this there's got to be a way There's got to be a way to make a drum that's super versatile that could quickly adapt to any environment that we're in um and You know and and can make head changes a snap and yeah It's not that I I didn't know how to tune and like to your point. I think we all Learn the process. Um And there can even be some pleasure in it and it can be an enjoyable thing uh But in certain scenarios, I I was playing at the time In a in kind of a traveling Church band and we'd go and play at different churches that had Uh, I need maybe their their main Worship director was out of town or something or they didn't have a regular team that that would lead And so we'd just go and show up and volunteer time to play And so I was always in these um various settings of you know acoustic were terrible the drum set was held together with duct tape And I'd bring my snare drum and I bring my cymbal bag and uh It was such a challenge to go into these environments and make my snare sound like anything workable You know and I was always tweaking and adjusting and throwing the moon gel on taking it off and putting towels over it And doing all the things you do And so with all my spare time when I was you know at home or working at at the ballet stand on a slow day I just have a little notebook and I'd be writing and Um sketching and yeah just trying to figure it out. That's awesome. I was a valet as well Uh, oh you were I was a valet and I had a period where I was like I'm gonna get into mode I had I loved I love motorcycles. I sold one my last one when I got a kid Uh when I had a kid, but um It was just like I'm gonna learn how to do this and I just screwed a few things up And I was like I am not this is not my all right, but I won't work on them, but um Yeah, I mean that's uh That's cool that you I don't want to say you saw a problem, but there was a uh, there was something that could be done better. Um It's not replacing it the traditional, you know You know way to tune drums, but it's definitely Different and I don't want to say again. It's better or worse, but um, I guess maybe now I could you know, uh Talk about my experience with it because yeah, it is All right, so um, I'd seen them I'd heard of you guys and I thought to myself. I mean it's and I'm gonna speak obviously, you know We've talked for a little bit, but speaking fully like transparent as a person As a guy who'd never really played one before I thought. Oh, that's really cool I never really thought I'd even be able to try one unless it was at nam or something and even then you're like sure You know you hit it a few times Uh, I like most people probably think okay I don't have that much of a problem with like, you know quickly kind of tuning up and down um, and my I guess in 2020 2021 Main use for that I or my main drumming Career was in session work at the studio where I work So they'd call me and say hey, you know, you're the guy who works here. So just come down and play the drums even in 2020 but uh People who listen to the show know this I tore my Achilles tendon in October. So I was actually out for a while, but anyway So, uh, when you hit me up, I was like, yeah, that'd be great. I'd love to try it I didn't really know what to expect about like, um Just I didn't know what to expect. I had no idea how easy it would be how You know, like how necessary it is So right when you hit me up, I started to get these like, hey, can you are you okay? Is your foot or leg okay to play drums again? And I was like, I had no idea, but I said, yes Assuming that I'd be fine. Um, so anyway, we we uh, I did It got here the day before I got booked to do one of these sessions, which are they're for like commercial There's a couple different ones. I used it for three sessions Uh, first one is for like a commercial, uh, no, I should say first one is for like a corporate client very corporate people people will probably never hear the songs, but they're very very high Uh level company where they're paying a lot of money for these songs to use for their Whatever internal years or whatever so, um And uh, I bring the drum and I'll tell you I brought an acrylate with me as well because I didn't know how to expect I was like, I don't know if I can use this thing if it's gonna if I'm gonna like Mess it up with no experience. I got it the day before took it out of the box Um, I don't even have I have an electric kit set up at home. I moved somewhat recently So I don't even have a full kit set up here, but so I bring it. Um Throw it on and within like a couple seconds. I was like Uh, this is awesome. Like, okay I can totally You know go up go down. Um, I put a little moongel on it Obviously like any snare or you take out some of the the ring, especially if you're recording. Um, yeah And another interesting thing that I was uh explaining to you before we started is now when you do a lot of sessions for these commercial kind of corporate clients is There's a link. It's like a listen to uh, sort of thing where like um It's an invite for anyone on the team of like this corporate Uh, marketing company where they can click on it. They can listen sitting at their desk doing whatever writing You know marketing materials They can listen to the recording session that's going on for their music that's getting done Uh in coven it happened a lot because it's like hey, we can't have you into the studio But you can hear us mixing Uh in the background anyway No pressure no pressure But but really the beauty of it is is like, hey, can you uh, let's try a lower snare instead of having you know Multiple different snares. It was just a quick bottom head top head. Let's go lower go higher. Okay, cool and um It was just awesome. So the first time I used it was on that session. Um, and and I should say that obviously This is totally just personal like my experience. You're not like Sponsoring the podcast or anything. I'm giving you full on like this is what happened just so people know that. Um So we did that. Uh, the engineer was like losing his mind over at adam plieman loved it. Uh, who I work with all the time Uh, I was absolutely sold the next week. I had to do another one which is for a uh, Like a jingle that'll be on the radio and tv in 48 different markets around the country Which is pretty cool. So I can't it's for a window company. I guess I I could say who it is, but I won't um Uh So Second time we did it same thing a little bit of moongel went up went down. Um Let's do a fat snare on on on this version Uh and then snares off and everything was just awesome and I shot a um In one of those days I shot like a video of myself which I put up on facebook And I guess I should probably put it up on youtube, but showing me doing it like a little demo video. Um, which people liked but It's interesting because a lot of the comments were, um you know A lot of people said I'm really curious about this. I've always been curious about it. Wow looks awesome. Looks super easy. Um, But there are people who say, um, well, I have no problem tuning My drums. I don't need this I have You know, it's like defensive Um, sure. Yep. We get that. So what do you say to those people? Like, what would you say? To like, you know, I don't need this thing. I'm great at tuning my drums. What's the answer to that? Yeah, I mean what I say is you're probably right. You don't need it. There's a lot of things in life. We don't we don't need. Um And you might not be the customer for it. I mean for us We we built it as a labor of love and we built it to solve Maybe like to your point, maybe not a problem but to enhance a certain element of our playing experience Uh for us, it's a it's a gateway to creativity because it allows you to adjust In seconds on the fly to tailor your sound immediately to whatever environment Whatever track whatever your musical expression you're you're engaging with Um, so as a tool I think it does have a lot of value in a lot of uses you found in the studio Yes, I'd say 70 to 80 of our customers right now are studios. It's home studios. Yeah, so perfect for that. I mean I So live it would be great too. Like you said before it is a heavy drum I mean it is a not that like you think like, okay, like usually you bring To a show symbols stick bag and a snare which like Okay, the snare weighs. I mean, how much does it weigh? Do you I'm sure you know It's about it's a little over 20 pounds. So it's it's not light I mean, you imagine um if you're used to lugging around a uh a bell bronze or some kind of forged Metal drum, you'll be come to Keplinger. You'll be comfortable with it Uh, but if you're not if you're used to a standard 12 pound drum, then it's double that it's heavy Yeah, so but I mean again if it's sitting on a snare stand and it's basically um Not replacing the fun of having a bunch of different snares to try but in those situations where it is like it's not even like a I'm playing on a rock album and I'm going to use my suprafonic. I'm going to use this for these vibes. These are like commercial corporate songs like even like a the radio jingle. It's like They don't care like they didn't it isn't like that Crazy of like use a dynasonic on this one now. It's like no, just can you make it sound higher? Can you make it sound lower? Yep Absolutely perfect for that. So my recommendation would be for everyone that it's you know And it's not a cheap drum at all, but it's it's replacing that like studio. You need to use a bunch of different things. Um Yeah, I just loved it. We've had we've had customers sell multiple drums To purchase this one because of the versatility. So versatility is the name of the game Um, the user friendliness the ability to adjust both heads independently quickly because that's something else that's really unique to this Drum is yes, you can tune your bottom head on a traditional snare, but you got to take it off the stand And so with this drum the the ability to tune your bottom head without even removing the drum off the stand Just gives you that even added A layer of flexibility while you're playing and we found I've learned a ton about tuning through engaging with this process obviously but because Um, because I'm able to so quickly play with that relationship between the heads I've learned a vast amount of information about how that works and how they interact and you know stuff that would have taken me Hours and hours and hours and hours on a traditional drum. Yeah, um, so that's a fun part of it, too I think I think they're fun to play That's another piece is just the pleasure of playing and being able to quickly adjust your sounds Yeah, is uh, can be a blast. I felt that same thing where I was like, I mean, I've always done I mean again playing for a long time. It's like, you know, okay Let me tighten the bottom and maybe I'm being lazy, but I'm like, okay If the drum sounds good to me, it's like I'm not gonna touch it for the next Like six months or so. Sure. Like I'll I'll tighten the top head a little bit. I'll loosen it I'll do the like one one tension rod totally loose and then like those techniques, but um Yeah, it's fun to experiment with it and I haven't changed a head on it Obviously because I kind of have a demo version so I'm not switching heads out, but um, well do what you want Yeah, well try it out. It's actually fun to compare heads to you so quickly Yeah, that's something too where I'm like, you know, normally you have to take it off And and what you said before about switching drums and taking the you know or switching the drum and You know tensioning the bottom had differently when you are all mic'd up and you're in there and it's set it Really slows things down to be moving the SM 57 or whatever's on your snare and then right up and then you bump to the bottom and mic and then it's like, oh my god Right and and and so the snare had changing point, you know, a lot of our studio guys They're used to bring multiple snares. Now they bring multiple heads So they have five to ten heads and that's a whole color palette Right, so if it's a heavyweight it's a single ply. I mean that changes the whole dynamic whole voice of the drum in about 30 seconds and so That's kind of where this has shifted a lot of the way that they engage with studio work Is they just bring heads versus drums and that that's been a benefit to a lot of guys Yeah, okay, so I had the Uh six and a half by 14 maple Right, there's other ones, right? There's an acrylic. Why don't you tell us about the what people can get? Yeah, so right now our sizes are all six and a half by 14 That's just how we design the initial system. We have plans to roll out a whole bunch of different depths and Diameters down the road. We'd love to do a full kit, you know, but like I said, we just launched last january So we do the maple which is template. We do an acrylite And those are rci shells the same shells that you know, you find on all the other big brands that do acrylite It's a great drum kind of that standard crisp dry acrylite kind of boxy sound Uh, and then we do a 1.2 millimeter nickel over brass Which is my personal favorite It's a beautiful sound it cuts through in the studio like no, it's kind of our our ode to the black beauty All the dial tune And then we do a one fun collaboration drum right now That's a made-to-order thing and we work with uh kate over at savage drums I don't know if you're familiar with savage. I feel like I've seen it on social Seeing them on social media and stuff. Yeah Out of bellingham washington and so he makes they do the cast bell bronze four millimeter Um similar to what your your old tom of bell bronze shells would be very similar profile Um, and that thing's a beast. I mean you think the standard one's heavy that one's, you know Good 15 pounds more. Oh my god. Wow You almost need to sell a wheelbarrow with it. Yeah But it's a monster and it sounds unreal And so we do those made-to-order and we've actually sold a fair number of them. We just launched that In february, so that's been fun. That's awesome. It's it's so cool that it's like a system that works On a drum that sounds good. It's not A drum that sounds good, but it's losing its tension every time I hit it or it's not a uh You know a system that is really keeping its tension, but it's on like a Whatever generic bland snare. I mean, it's uh, yeah, it's all really that's a good point Bart And that's something that when we set out to create this there were a couple non-negotiables We had to be able to tune both heads independently. That was just a non-negotiable It had to sound good all the time. Yeah, like non-negotiable Um, the tension had to be uh, even or even enough to produce a high quality sound. Yeah Um, and then we didn't want to sacrifice the other aspects of the playing experience To go after this one element because like going back to the patents. We looked at earlier uh Zimmerman and and some of the others where you have You have a solution But even in that solution sometimes it's creating other problems or other variables that Didn't exist so you solve one thing and then you create 10 other issues Yeah That get in the way of the drummer's experience and playing the drum And at the end of the day if it's not enhancing the drummer's experience It's not worth it. Yeah Um, so we were really committed to that that it was a drum that we would play. It's a drum that we would Enjoy playing and not get frustrated with that worked well all the time. So Yeah, I appreciate you bringing that that point up that you know Sometimes innovation can be clumsy and it can actually detract. Yeah, and we really want to make sure that it was something that enhanced Yeah, it feels Feels fully realized Looks beautiful It seems like all the you know the generations before of this technology have kind of it's I mean, it's 2021 we live in a time of like You know, you it should be you I feel like you don't find systems like this that come to market where it's you know You're buying it and you're paying like a thousand dollars for it where it feels like it's a Amazing finished product. Um So congratulations. I mean seriously. Thank you. Oh, I appreciate that. Yeah And I'm not going to say a lot about this today, but we have a whole future sort of product roadmap to Um, and you mentioned is you know, it's 2021. So One of the ideas that we have a patent on is is how we automate it. So, you know, you got a single point tensioner now Which allows you to do a lot of things. Yeah And so for studio use and that kind of thing, I mean imagine presettings and all the rest Okay, so just just to kind of open that box a little bit. Yeah, and that's one thing where Adam who's the engineer I work with all the time he was like, okay, can if we change it Can you get back to that same sound and I was using like there's like a little I think it's I'm assuming it's for like a For if you want to take the side casing off. It was like a little allen wrench kind of Hole and I was like, okay, I can remember where I had that little marker And I guess you could even take like Put a little piece of tape and then remember full turn or quarter turn So remembering your like like you said memory, you know presets would be awesome. Yeah. Yeah In in the pipe in the pipeline That's great. Man. Okay. Well, um Where can people find you? Why don't you give that information here as we kind of wrap up and uh, you know tell them about Best place to find a dial tune. Are they in stores? Is it directly through you guys all that good stuff? Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, right now we sell direct to consumer online through our website and it's a dial tune drums one word.com So dialtunedrums.com. Um, and you can purchase directly through the site and we typically ship within one to three business days. Um We have to your point earlier about, you know Wondering where you could get your hands on one to try it because that's a big thing I mean, you're it's a significant amount of money. You're committing to a purchase You've never seen the drum. You've never heard the drum. So we offer a 90 day money back guarantee And part of that is to allow people the experience of purchasing it trying it out making sure it works for them and then If they love it and most people do they they keep it and if uh, if for any reason you want to send it back We honor that for 90 days Um, we are in a handful of select stores. There's uh In washington state west coast drums over in bell view Um, there's a couple shops in california and and we're working on uh, setting up larger distribution But the best place right now if you just want to go direct to our website, you can learn all about it There's videos on there Uh reviews testimonials and you can kind of learn anything you want to know We're also really committed to customer service and being really responsive via email texts There's a chat chat function on our website. So if you're curious if you have doubts if you're skeptic We love it bring it on we'll we'll have that dialogue. We want to um Yeah, just engage with your curiosity around it and um, again, we're not trying to To make converts. We're not saying throw out all your old stuff But we do want to offer a compelling alternative and kind of a new uh, a new expression of of the instruments that we love and play Yeah on a daily basis. So awesome cool. Well, um, this has been great. Um, and brian is uh Been kind enough to hang out for another couple minutes. I hope that's still okay, brian um, I'd love to hear when we do the little patreon bonus episode about, uh You know the world of the internet is full of haters and people who are skeptics So maybe we can talk a little bit about things that you've Questions you've faced from some of these people Which we've kind of gone through but things like that and then maybe we can talk a little bit about, um You know the sourcing of these it's not super like the materials and stuff I mean, I don't know your full background, but it's it's a I mean, it's you're manufacturing this drum. So maybe we can dig a little deeper into the actual manufacturing process and How they go from You know the idea to a finished product. So um Cool. Well, if you want to hear that then go to uh drumhistorypodcast.com And there's a little patreon button and you can join up and uh for You know as low as two bucks a month you can get these bonus episodes. So Yeah, all right on that note, um brian given the the dial tune website one more time and then we'll we'll wrap up here Yeah, absolutely. So it's dialtunedrums.com dialtunedrums with an s.com cool Awesome. Well, brian, I uh really appreciate you coming on and sharing your knowledge and experiences and all this cool stuff And I absolutely love the drum and uh, I I have one more session That's gonna come up in the next couple days and I'm hoping I can keep it for Oh, absolutely. Yeah, hang on to it. No, it's been a blast and thanks for having us on If you like this podcast find me on social media at drumhistory and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning