 Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Here with a very special Christmas episode happy holidays everybody, whatever you celebrate anywhere in the world. That's right We've all been given a great gift here as we knew it would be this week We knew we would all get to unwrap something special for Christmas from games workshop and my oh my do we with the new Battle scroll, I guess that's what we're calling it. That's fine And and the FAQ Tom's just gonna watch other television shows while the show's going on That's fine. No issue Tom. I get it. Just don't fill it fill in air time. Just gotta you got a multitask Such a millennial Tom also joining us this week or the two people who have co-hosted this show with me for the past six years They've been here every episode both of them. It's great first up Tom. How you doing brother? Hello friends Merry Christmas. Yeah, Merry Christmas Tom. Good to have you back Tyler, how are you doing? Yeah, man, good to see everybody Merry Christmas. Absolutely. I hope everybody's in the holiday spirit. I Couldn't find my stalking hat. I looked And then I want to make a Walmart run. No, my wife was like, don't forget. She told me multiple times Not she made me remember to get this So I Would say gentlemen that Santa definitely came down the chimney here with this battle score release Which is gonna be our main topic today. It's so exciting. I think some some people got some gifts I think we got we did we did get some gifts. Maybe not exactly the gifts we wanted and Some people got some coal and we're gonna figure out exactly which is which We'll determine it as we go but first off the news because there is news Yeah, I mean, where do I start right? Where do you start? Where do I start indeed so no rumor engine I'm super disappointed about that Yeah, just real quick I said this would before you're off air but I'll repeat it on on air because I'm not at all shy about it's fine The advent calendar thing could not be more of a disappointment to me. I couldn't care less about it It's not like last year We were getting all sorts of cool cursed city reveals and stuff like that If you remember Tom when we were like putting together the witch hunter from the various pieces and stuff. Yeah Yeah, this year. It's just like it's it's Basically flip a coin. Are we getting the gun or boot of a new Eldar model or the Bejangle or weapon of a new chaos model? That's it. Yeah, 25 days of that fantastic Great. I like please release these 40k armies So we can stop with this nonsense Three-fourths of our shows this year have been yeah, it's a 40k thing. Let's move on right right Absolutely, it's just like we get it. You're gonna make an Eldar and chaos box that we're all really excited about it I mean, I look I think it's gonna be a cool box that don't get me wrong Like I I do think new Eldar sculpts will be really cool I love new cast dudes because I steal a lot of cast 40k guys and use them in a OS I think they basically come over often just fine So like I'm I'm excited about it. I just don't care enough to see a One square centimeter of the model every day just show the box So maybe they'll do that on Christmas Day. I guess we'll see that would truly be a Christmas miracle All right, what else we got? I Mean as much as everybody is excited about this FAQ. I mean Well, I'll do the FAQ first. Hey, we got an FAQ this week That's what we're gonna talk about. That's right. That'll be our main topic So we're not gonna dive into it here, but stay I'm not gonna bury the I'm not gonna bury the lead though I really think the real Christmas gift this week was at cursed city's return. I mean come on now. Look Look Who saw that coming? I Not me Okay, no, Merry Christmas everybody like with it with expansions to with expansions like it's back Whereas this only continues my ongoing conspiracy theory that GW is doing all of their releases in a meta way Okay, like that they have this stacked meta plan Like have the Nergo released the pipe burst and sewage flooded everywhere, right? Like we went all the way back Okay, we did how showed how all of them were met over leases and now Curse city, which is about undead Resurrect, yeah, right risen like the beginning of altered beast rise from your graves boom and it's up. Yeah I'm excited about it. I think that's super cool I wonder if they'll take a chance to do anything different or if they'll just literally reprint it. I don't know Guess we'll see I don't know But it's exciting And you know, I think that that's great I hope a lot of people who wanted to get their hands on a will it was a really downed thing We were talking about right we did our thank you or janky show. Yeah, and yeah, and it was not a thing that was celebrated to put it very mildly and So and it's a shame because it's a lot of cool-looking miniatures. It was obviously something people put a lot of effort into And now it's back. So yay That's great I'm so excited. I have ever all my stuff queued up to paint now I am I'm just tired. I Like the I have like all my stuff queued up to paint which I'm super stoked about But now like with this FAQ everything like the whole world has changed again And so yeah, maybe of course that he's gonna have to go on the on the delay again So well, we don't know when it's coming next year. We just know it's like it could be anything. It could be it could be next year Right, so let's not get ahead of ourselves here. I doubt it Usually they only talk about things a quarter to four months in advance, but still we're just saying we don't know All right, what else we got And then finally model the year. Yeah, I know it's up. So did everybody go vote for sigbald? I assume everybody's voting for sigbald I mean, he's the February model He would have been I think third Sebastian Bellicor and Siggy was my top three Okay, okay, I see how it is First Tyler, I got a Boss ball for Bastion Bastion Carlos Lord Commander badass. Yes. Yeah, I mean Yeah, I mean Of course gonna win. Yeah. Yeah, well, it's it's gonna pull both 40k and a OS boats, right? Yeah. Yeah Exactly. Yeah What was your top vote Tom? Bellicor. Yeah. Yep Look, I get it. He's good. He's not man But he's not sigbald. He's not our Lord and Savior chosen of the dark princess like he's he's good He's good But you know at any rate everybody go vote and vote for sigbald if you can because you know Let's I would just I would love to see him win I'd love to see a pure AOS model win for the first time in basically forever He's not in 40k. Is he Siggy? No Yeah, so that's not that's not gonna happen, right? It's just it's just the 40k thing man What what would it say for us to actually get a win Well, I think they would like the model would have Sure 40k people just not voting there's like a first It was like a first question That's like which game system do you play and if they click 40k? It's like thank you for completing the survey and that's it. It just stops right there for them That's being seeing you without glasses on I think this is the first time in like five years that I can read memory Calls seeing without glasses. It's very strange. You know, I had my glasses were kind of That and that hat you're weirding us out. Stop it. I'll put it back on a second I'm cleaning my glasses. Okay, cuz it was a fuzzy And it was occurring to me as I was looking at both of you. Okay. I don't know. I'm liking it pretty sexy actually There we go. Is that better? That's yeah, that works So, yeah, and we were talking cheers to Byron on face hammer for almost winning a game single-handedly with singing Yeah, that was that was it. That was a fun bad rep on just play from a couple weeks back. Yeah, I enjoyed that one Who would have thought he would end up being the best and only hope the only good model in the army? Like that battery board you want to check out though Sure it just when you when we did the original math He was like the most out of whack sort of wounds to points ratio And you look at him originally in 2.0 when he launched and you were like, I guess he's okay And he's just he just shines in the 3.0 era. He really does. Yeah, the healing and the just the yeah Just being hard. Yeah, although. Yeah, he's gonna be harder to heal now as we'll talk about Okay All right, so I think that's all the news right nothing else. Yeah. No, that's it. Very good. All right. Let's go to some pick. Oh The week Tom What's your pick? Russ down at face hammer did a wonderful FAQ review and I want to encourage people to check it out Good pick. I like it. He did that like the two of them got together. They did a nice long review Yeah, I can clearly tell where some of the changes in here wounded them But they do I mean like but they do hit on a lot of really good points I think it's a really good review like they go deep And so it's definitely worth a watch. I'll link it down below great choice Tyler. What do you got? Yeah, I haven't caught that one yet. I'm behind on content. They're Holiday season, but it's the time for content. Just sit down Get painting Tyler and just turn on that content early indeed So a Cinefall gaming had a great bat rep showcasing Some of what we discussed in the Nurgle review missed you Tom on that one We're gonna have to make sure you're on for the next one. We did a deep dive But it's just if you want to see Why the internet might be wrong about Nurgle check out that bat rep Yeah, that's good unless you're Vince talking about drones and you just are wrong sure you're wrong You shut your face most lists I've seen have a single at least one pack of drones in them and for good reason my my favorite by the way was like Listen like watching the what's app on Nurgle when they were like, you know like people are like Yeah, I took my first list out first spin and all that and like to the person every single one was yeah That's such and such perform. Oh, yeah, those drones were just terrible I'm probably not gonna include the then the next time we're out and that happened like four or five times in a row And I was like four or five people don't know how to play with drones. That's all I'm saying right there easy answer Or there are just better options for the 200 When Tom Mosley is going out and buying like eight beasts of Nurgle, I think by default I win that argument Yeah, I mean I didn't hate beasts of Nurgle as much as Vince did I I'm super down on them I'll admit and hey if I turn out to be wrong I'll cop to that Like yeah, like on them is that they're garbage? I don't think that they're terrible I think that they're an interesting comparison to the to the single plus coil And that and there's an interesting conversation to be had there All right, well, this isn't the Nurgle show, but I get time will tell I definitely look at what you know lists that are popping around with hundred thirty hundred and forty hundred and fifty plus wounds And I know all with a five up save and I'm like, you know, they're they're gonna do just fine Especially with the no deployment and bushing one drop Sly yada yada yada yada. Okay. Anyways Right on my pick of the week is for our good friend Andy And Henry over at Colt of paint though this video is Andy's video He's been working on a backdrop for his very cool miniature that they released in Durgaard I can't say how they say it, but it's you know, it's Durgaard. That's the thing they made Durgaard and yeah, so it's a really cool Sort of elf Seder dude and he's been working through the backdrop in a series of videos And this one is him actually painting all the wildlife stuff in it like the wood and the trees and all that And I just feel like it's a super useful video for everybody Even if you're not interested in doing like a backdrop Because there's a lot of times they get questions about like painting wood and natural scenes that look good that look realistic And that's basically he's covering. So even if you were doing bases or whatever You know, if you were gonna do a Sylvanith army or anybody sort of with natural woodland bases I think all the techniques he shows in there are super valuable and super good. So check it out Andy's always a obviously an amazing painter and a great teacher. So super good All right Gentlemen, let's turn to some hobby time here in the holiday week Tyler. Did you paint anything? Of course, you know it. I Yeah, it's never happening What have I been doing? Internet, please shame Tyler on Twitter and any other social media And when you get him painting it's so easy you can do it Anthony Pocastro has been shaming me every week for like the past two years and no effect Pocastro You're very resistant to social pressure, but we will break it. Okay, so do you get some games in how about that? Yeah, I got some games in I've been I got the back of the pack finished for the tournament more days than that soon You guys know I've been working on this Act of Point-O bad appliance translating to 3.0 We've been getting a lot of tests came in with all three and I'm feeling pretty good about it That went out to you guys and some folks to start getting some more feedback. Oh Yeah, I'm still waiting for your comments Looking back peer pressure So let me yeah, let me know what you guys think right on but yeah No, I feel like they're in a good place and that they're gonna they're gonna be nice So we're gonna play those at a one-day air in January. See how that goes a couple of others around the world Constantinos Is gonna get a one-day air with those three. So yeah anyway. Yeah, just been doing that got some games in Played against soul of lights and sons of behemoths After the fact and I got those games in I guess yesterday. It's right now and yeah, I don't I can go in the details But take too long so very nice. I think I got stormcast figured out no no shooting dragon dragon breath doesn't count as shooting So all melee stormcast Okay, okay Tom how about you? Do you like you came down a couple weeks back and you got you know, you came down to our hobby weekend? This is the funniest thing to I don't I didn't really get to tell this story But so we did this painting weekend, right? So it's Sam John Sam Lenz John Nina's myself and Tom came down. It was great four of us hung out I had a great grand old time and Ostensibly John Tom or sorry John myself and Sam. There we go. We're working on Golden Demon projects. So like we basically one model and it was we were working on it for more or less the whole weekend, okay? And they Sam was doing his dual so it's technically two bottles or whatever, but Tom meanwhile comes down. He's not gonna work on a Golden Demon project So he brings like his like a night on army It's like day one Assembling a night on army day two. He's like prime and the whole thing of my airbrush Which by the way, I've used my airbrush consistently without issue Tom for years You come down for one day use my airbrush and it took me a week and a half to get that thing straight again I had to disassemble multiple times. You are the ruin her I just you are a force of entropy and destruction in the universe So we're at any rate at the end of the weekend. He's got like like 50 things You know, it's really dragging up the whole group average So anyway, I'm sorry Tom go ahead They weren't completely done I still have to do the golds. Yeah and my black highlight But yeah, yeah, I made quite a bit of progress on him. So Got my lady a bunch of more chain rasps and a bunch of other stuff. So Then it's funny like I got home and I you know what I did. I did hobby this week. I built 20 Um Dreadside heritans, okay, and I built two more spirit torments and the named guy that came in the box with four chain rats Nice, and so I built some more stuff this week and it was getting ready to base them But I'm glad I didn't because basically I need to just finish my rebase my Nagash apparently and then what I already have painted because That's where I'm at now is just finishing the gosh will actually finish my night on army for what I currently already have So yay me There you go We'll get into that for sure My hobby time has been very busy. So I'm I'm you know, this is I'm done working for the year as it were Taking my time off. So it's all hobby focus, which means a lot of things Specifically what I am working on is these guys right here our little dragon boys My first two of these I have another box of these I'll need to do the single character and then I don't know if I will do any more because I thought these guys were gonna be easier than They are they're turning out all right a lot of time Yeah, it's like a lot of real estate here and even with the you know the airbrush It's still time-consuming, right? You're only doing two well, I don't know man. We'll see I I don't know I don't know I mean, what is that gonna do for your your holy wars army? I already have 2,000 points Right 2,000 points painted. It's just a question of what else I add to this now But dragons sure I understand but dragons So I've been working on that at the same time I'm also working on the next book that Will come out next year With Adam and I So made a lot of lot a lot a lot of progress on that Both of you gentlemen are gonna be involved in that in some way coming up here soon in the new year But very very excited about our next project I don't know when that'll happen in the next year don't not in the beginning of the year I'll say that much for sure and And then I'm I I Worked on something that I can't talk about but will come out in like February-March ish of next year that I am very very very excited about and I think other people are going to be as well So and will probably lead me to doing an army. So we'll see Nothing more very mysterious Clearly it just has to be Nervous like what we now know is that this is all I mean, I've painted like five It's not that but I've painted like five nergal models now Tom. I will say that They're fun Okay So with that gentlemen look at that 20 minutes in Tyler with you on the show and I'm doing my test I'm trying to be quiet here Think I did a pretty good job There you go So gentlemen, let's uh Let's talk about battle scroll in the winter FAQ first things first battle scroll Bad name or worse name? your feelings Well, I have reasons to be yeah to be not a fan of it for yeah for something I won't talk about yeah, that's apparently it's it's very easy to just take battle in front of everything You know, we've got battle pack. We got battle plans We got we got a lot of that going on so that that may that may impact my Decisions on a project. I'll say but yeah, it's I don't know whatever dude. It's It's it's in your in your words actually Tom's words both of your words. You both say this a lot You read everybody. It's fine. It's fine. It's yeah, it's fine It's a silly name. I could tell its marketing was like quick We need a name for this put the put the thing in front of it that we always put in front of it like okay got it So great good stuff Are we getting I don't want to jump again, but we got to talk about obviously what's our schedule going to be Yeah, yeah, okay. Well, but I want to end on that not start okay, okay I don't know because I I do want to talk about the future of this thing also by the by Thank You W. Soar, and I was gonna say that But like I realized as I was saving all the files associated to this and kept abbreviating it to BS That you did yourself no favors GW by putting this out and then having Markets itself. I see no I see no problem here. No issues at all Okay Brian S says I'm holding out for the futilistic parchment. Love it. Love it okay so Here's where I want to start overall impressions of this like let's do a simple one to ten One being absolutely terrible. They shouldn't have even published this ten being it was everything you could hope for and more never Would you need another one right or something like that? Where you fall in number wise and what do you think at a high level? Tyler you start us off. Yeah, all right, so Between a six and a seven so six and a half With the idea that I'm expecting all this jump again I'm expecting this to portend essentially quarterly changes is what I think we're gonna be looking at You know, they've had this incrementalist orientation for a while and I think this was implemented better than Orally, you know on the positive side when it comes to the rules changes and then it was much more of a mixed bag on the points So, yeah about six and a half Okay, really like for the most part like the rules changes points. We've got quite a bit to talk about there Yeah, just in yeah Yeah, all right, right on I want to take a moment here to say audience by the way What do you think give me a number between one and ten drop it in the chat and hey? Well, you've got your keyboard and mouse and you're clicking things to type a number Why not also hit that like button or subscribe because you're already moving your mouse around and clicking things just keep clicking It's fun Tom. Where you at? Like a five. Okay, maybe Maybe all right like it love it. They updated like 15 units I mean, I know there's more than that but like a single sheet of units They rewrote three war scrolls, which is great ish and I Don't know. I just yeah, they updated some core rules That were but that seemed problematic that third edition introduced but as for like army adjustments, maybe five Like they just There's just a lot more like raw things that need to be dealt with and they just didn't touch them Yeah, like the DPS check of the Giants like maybe the amulet destiny removal will fix that but really I Don't know Giants. Yeah, I'm moving to know when I talk more about Giants right now I've got a slightly different opinion on Giants in that regard like I'm in the TLDR I think that from the ecosystem standpoint Giants are Essentially fine and are going to be increasingly fine as we move forwards and yet from an initial conditions standpoint, they're still problematic and Yeah, and you know unless you address the initial conditions are going to continue to be problematic to a certain degree, but anyhow Okay I'm gonna I'm gonna go with I'm gonna actually go with like see I want to say five to but it's a little bit better than it's like slightly above average for me It's like five and a half, you know, and I know that's kind of cheating But like I just wouldn't in good conscience say it a five, but I also can't put it as six So it's you know in the middle there, right? Like I like some of the stuff in here and we'll talk about it But at the same time I was hoping for more in light of what we saw with the 40k thing Right, that's sort of my challenge. It's an expectation thing I think as much as anything that they kind of set expectations in two ways First they published the 40k thing Right and did a lot of lift up for for suffering forces and Then two they said they specifically said no one put a gun to their head. No one made them write this They said this first one is gonna focus on on weaker Armies, right? Yeah, like that was in the text that they wrote and We did that whole show about cool. Let's put those two pieces of information together They're gonna focus on the weaker armies and here's what the 40k would look like and we said, okay Here's some cool simple rules they could do in the style of the 40k data slate right that would You know that would then Help boost some of these forces and you know, I don't know if you saw honest war gamers Newest stats chart of sense the FAQ or since the yeah, sorry since the yeah storm cast and an auric FAQ I think is basically when it was cut from but it was pretty fascinating Okay, because seraphon pushed over 60 percent. They're at 60 right They had a sizable tick up over the last couple of months. I think they were yeah 63% was the latest Yeah, well that's 61, but yes, they hunt so well in this meta, right? I mean it depends on exactly when you cut the starting time on Tyler Like they're on a hard upward trend Yeah, right, right The exact number actually doesn't matter that much. It's the trend line, right? And the fact that they're out of whack like we know that and The you know my challenge is the sinister six still the sinister six. We'll talk. We'll see where they stand We'll get our opinions the middle like this the middle middle the 55 to 45 Actually shrunk a little because a few more armies fell down into either the broader fat middle You know 44 to 40 or even below Yeah, right. There's quite a lot of armies kicking around at 39 now like look I know I beat this horse all the time, but slanesh was it like 32 or 33 something like that I mean it was woof There's a lot of people down there who would have liked some love and this didn't really do that Okay, so let's get into it Positives here's my positives. It's a good first change overall. I understand it was their first one They were probably being conservative so I can I can appreciate that right so That's fine, right and they did address that they they're seeing some real challenges out there in acting I think this is good. This is a really good thing like they addressed things that I wanted to see addressed not everything But they did hit some systematic stuff and they hit it in a good way and actually I think very cleverly With some of these as we'll talk about Okay, yep the negatives the Points changes are basically irrelevant Mostly there's a few there's a few exceptions, but for the most part they're pretty irrelevant And several items are still unaddressed unaddresses how about unaddressed There we go. Okay, you know, and I think that's that's the challenge right But You know to be fair and as we'll talk about if this is the first time we're gonna do this and We're gonna roll these quarterly And we start getting some new books in the new year at a decent pay at a decent clip which we can all hope Like are we still doing a shipping thing or is that stop now or is it shipping back to almost to like previous? Pandemic normals where it's Christmas. I don't know sure Like I don't know. I haven't heard about that recently. Did that get fixed? I guess I don't know right Yeah, I haven't heard much either so maybe some folks in the comments or in the chat Yeah, like I mean, I know shipping has been rough the entire pandemic So it is it is but like are we back to that normal as opposed to the crisis level or whatever? right So the point is if we start seeing some real books roll out and we do this quarterly I think this is a perfectly fine place to start Okay Because we do have to accept that like okay. We couldn't do everything in the first one They're not gonna put out, you know a 50 page document like we talked about right like we got to be realistic They want to do incremental change roll it out through the app Publicize it so people get used to it and start looking at it fine. I think quarterly is still fast. I don't love it Okay But if that's gonna be the trend then fine then let's do some incremental stuff here Okay All right, so yeah, this if it's this level of change then yeah personally very comfortable with quarterly and I suspect Many people will be as well kind of with this degree of change. I do want to talk more about the points I don't know if we want to do it right now, but just I want to say Just getting weird vibes just in terms of the lack of perceived process or sufficient process when it comes to this We're gonna we're gonna get into the point I moved it out of the order as you saw that it's in the PDF because I was like now now this needs its whole section Okay, yeah, let's talk about what wasn't addressed. What's the things we didn't see? Okay Yep No new rules for the underperforming armies in the style of 40k update now that doesn't mean every underperforming army might not have gotten above Clearly like there's some incremental points adjustments to some of them one of them might have got the biggest Christmas present They've been asking for for a while Hmm. Yeah, okay, I wonder who that might be It might have something to do with a a Christmas carol and being visited But anyways, we'll get into it, but we didn't get those changes, right? We didn't get like what we saw in the 40k update, you know Where suddenly a bunch of necron stuff is ob-sec or whatever or whatever they did didn't see save stacking addressed Not at all and I have to believe That they didn't address save stacking right now, this is just my guess. Here's here's my thought I'll be interested to see what you gentlemen think They basically shot amulet and heroic reserve in the head, right? They need or at least they need capital, right? okay, and I wonder you think they're hoping that that will address the survivability. Yeah Yeah, because I mean to be fair a lot of how normal safe stacking heroes were surviving Was often by also healing a d3 every turn Yeah, even in town like that did a lot You know when you can heal 10 d3 wounds over the course of a game Then it makes so the few wounds you sneak through on a safe stack hero just becoming relevant Now that those are especially when you also had a five up potential after safety to stop it, right? It's just the ROI sort of you know like the return investment calculus that you're doing in terms of where you're allocating your range damage, right? in number of situations, yeah So I have to wonder if they thought let's start here with these two Kind of fix these if they thought that's the underlying thing, right? Yeah, and then actually we'll see if that softens the save stacking problem now I don't know that that's right. I'm not even sure I would think that that would be plausible, okay, but It is true that those three things were forming kind of a you know Devil's combo as it. Yeah, right Indeed So Yeah, I think it's reasonable. It's it's reasonable. Yeah, and like we've discussed I was very worried that we were gonna get safe stacking and it was gonna be the easy button Right, yeah, which would really mess up. I think it's wrong. Yes. Yeah, really. I think that would mess up the game decisively easy button being just plus one safe cap that Yeah, suddenly elevate shooting which arguably I don't know We'll get into whether actually long-range in particular, you know, like long-range mortal wind shooting has been net elevated With all of these changes or maybe it's a bit of a wash. I know we can we can discuss that. Well, I think yes Yeah So, you know you guys I had a actually a fact just real quickly a fascinating Game, you know playing a lot of storm cast kind of figuring out my commission is gonna be staying away from long strikes It's just boring to play long strikes. Like I know what they do. I don't need to play him I know what 15 judicators do so I've been playing the four fulminators 10 protectors I 300 point or 325 point hero, you know mix and match between like Ashton or Adventist or Celestine Prime and then the usual like relic to her castellan, etc Okay, so it's a solid list and I played against soul blight who I've mentioned before that So I've been struggling with more than any, you know playing all the top factions in this game Whatever reason I struggle the most against soul blight and this isn't the Nagash vingorian lord board dry whatever soul blight It's the you know, here's all my various good pieces Manfred Grafgaard dire wolves, etc The point being that I lost yesterday Played pretty you know pretty well. I made like one clear mistake. I was about it couple of quibbles and It's that my opponent was getting frustrated throughout that entire game because for the most part I was always on a two-up and a three-up safe sure and Generally more than half the time on a two-up save whenever he was engaging and yet I lost that game handily sure a kind of point being like That it I don't know it's one game But I've had a few of those games where it's like interesting this you know, this is a safe sacking army that Another you know, I'm actually losing games when I'm on a two-up and a three-up and not doing stupid things And I just found that kind of maybe notable. Yeah In terms of There you go Yeah, I mean, it's it's certainly the case that it feels bad when you don't kill things This was this is the fundamental problem of defense that I've talked about before and you know dedicated videos, right? My opponent was so frustrated and he's a very cool calm guy my friend Dan Dan is arguably our coolest head in our local group But you know, it's kind of funny watching Dan get a little salty in that game, which yeah, but by But he won the game handily and yet The entire time that he was gonna it was just a strange experience like what the hell happened here Right again details, but because there's some kind of fundamental NPD At least certain to certain psychographic profiles of not being able to kill models like no No, we came here with the agreement We're gonna have to punch up and and people are gonna lose stuff and then at the end somebody wins, right? That's kind of the this the imaginary social contract, right? And so when that gets when that doesn't happen Even if you're winning you're like well, this is how I wanted to win This isn't a fun way to win for some segment of the population, right? Okay, cool So we'll see I imagine that This is sort of got to be up on the list of things that they would look at for the future But they want to see how it rolls from here. So, okay We didn't see an update of any kind of coherency Kind of a shame although they did touch stuff in the core rules. So it tells me they're willing to make changes like this Yeah, that's true So I'm happy to see that we didn't see any changes to reinforcements for the suffering armies down in the in the sullen six No, no addressing of hero face shooting, which I still think is just the poison pill of this game right now Is here a face shooting slash mortal wound shooting. Yeah, but I mean like Again, like I've actually typed this out in the comments multiple times Like who say things and it's like this mortal wound shooting is bad long-range mortal wound shooting is terrible long-range mortal wound shooting That can tap twice is straight poison Right, so it's it's not it's all of those things stacking if it was like imagine if Angkor Raiders were the best shooting in the game Like that was it. I don't mean to say they're there. I don't mean we change their shooting at all I mean like the weapon that they have and the way they shoot is the best shooting on offer in the game That's it. That is the peak of Power in shooting, okay, no one would care about hero face shooting Right, okay, it would be irrelevant Yeah, all right. It's the it's the combination of all those things that just shouldn't happen Yeah Yeah, okay, and then we didn't see this was the shocker to me no change to foxes Mm-hmm No point no nothing. Yeah, no points. Is it is it? Just because is it just because there's no saturation Meaning there's not enough people playing it, right? There's a handful of players that are exploiting it But there's not like it's not like every event has one or two players running it It's like old-school fire slayers, right? Yeah, like super powerful and hermed are lords of the lodge Sure, but like how often people do it. Yeah, right. It's not the most popular You know, there's at least probably well, so obviously the titanium bill is more popular, right? All right, then right or the 50 cent bill for the 50. Yeah, the 50 cent. Yeah, the Jack. Yeah Yeah, the the re-rolling ones Jack TM built, you know, and they're in the chat. Hey Jack. How you doing buddy? And I don't know that it's necessarily sword winners by the by I get it sword winners are generally pretty awful to play against But I mean like there's just a feeling of like you can't help it you're gonna have an emotional reaction and if what you draw psychological value from in the game is Killing things which is by a way a very timmy thing. It's what I like I love killing things the game when my stuff dies. I'm generally like man, okay, it's fine Whatever, you know as long as it got to do a thing. I'm generally pretty happy with it So that's like the great that's like the greatest asset test I've ever heard of are you a Timmy or not? I hate losing models But about you Tom, but I mean if it's supposed to die I will happily lose the models that are supposed to die. They're doing their job. I'll lose those models Oh, it's so painful losing something. That's not supposed to die particularly right. No, that's right Like I have like a third of my army. That's allowed to die Like these these like three units are allowed to die every game if anything else dies. I'm pissed If something dies and I did I literally just got to do nothing with it You know, I mean like it didn't go anywhere or do anything if like I had some fulminators charge in and blow a unit up And then they get countercharged and die and return them like no, okay fair dinkum cool good We we both did a thing. Yay Like I'm happy about it, you know Sure. Okay. Anyways Neither here nor there, but yes, it is a great Timmy litmus test. Yeah, you're not wrong Uh, all right, let's get into the let's get into the meat of this shall we okay? so All right You didn't you didn't have the Sorry, just stamping stuff. Okay. Yeah, the the symbols we talked a little bit about Sentinels You know what Sentinels change do we need is it just a point increase? Is it land that light changed? Is it the line of sight? It's a battle Point Stop jumping add to points Tyler. We'll get there And I want to say Merry Christmas to rally and what's up, brother? I hope you're doing well, sir Let's just say Tyler jumping back to that I'm glad That I built in like a sick like a 60 to 75 point window buffer in my holy wars list Specifically for sentinel point jumping and it moved up and I'm like, yes Okay, let's get into the specifics here gentlemen, I want to I want to I want to get into this so number one 7.1 heroic recovery the change we had two positive changes here in my uh estimation Okay, okay so one Is you can now only use heroic recovery when you're more than three inches from all enemy units Right. Yep And two We got rid of the whole equal to your bravery under your bravery greater than your bravery nonsense That should have never reached print Look gw rules designers. This is a little call out for you. Okay. Here's a simple rule Like a guideline for writing rules If you're ever writing a rule that's a light switch and you want to add a middle setting Stop and say will this rule work as a light switch as a pass or fail as a yes or no If it still works just use that version Right. Don't add multiple options. It only adds complexity. Right. It's adding nothing except complexity. So good change well done positive Yeah, so they basically can't heal in combat and now if you hit that your bravery or less equal to or less Um, then you heal d3 Okay This is a positive change I like this Yep I think this actually does do quite a lot at uh At preventing sort of save stacking heroes from just standing around in combat forever I mean, this was my trick with like my knight vexelor He would unleash his banner and then just go run into combat and just tie something up for all time because he would just sit there and Take a couple wounds heal. Take a couple wounds heal. Take a couple wounds heal, right? That was it So This will stop that from happening Uh, which by the way, you do still heroic recover from shooting So to your earlier question like this is still just as effective At undoing shooting wounds, but it's now much less effective slash damage. Sure or nergal splash damage. Well depending Because I mean a lot of nergal splash damage now happens through technically being in combat and getting diseased Which would shut it off, but I take your meaning if you're talking like ronagas a spell or something, right? So Um, yeah, I think this is all positive. I mean, I I love this change. I'm all for it Yeah, I agree. I think it's a subtle change that will make a significant shift in hero's drivability Yeah We didn't have much I didn't hear much conversation in the community about this You know in terms of expectations or predictions You know insights from someone in the community thinking like that. So it's it's really cool to see this nice subtle You know nuance change changes that they made to this. Yeah big fan Yeah To me this one upside Good against shooting Um, also nice that it's easier for like bravery seven eight people to actually hit and get the d3 now Yep, um again against shooting. So good stuff Uh, and yeah positive. Okay, great But shuts off in melee same way, you know, you could control the same way you do rally or something like that, right? Like yeah, great. You can Rally in combat Okay Unleash hell we had we had tagged this as something that needed to be fixed And I gotta say okay. Here's my read on this They fixed it in a way that I hadn't thought of that I was really impressed by Yeah Another one where the we the community missed Yeah, the the second part in particular of it Yep, because I had been pushing for just like be within three inches Um And I and a lot of people said not it's too much. Da-da-da-da-da, you know, whatever It's fine. We didn't get went to six inches. We split the difference, right between nine and three. We went to six but fine But the huge change here that's so important right Is that models in the unit that receive the command that are within six inches the target can shoot in that phase So the model itself you can't like tow in one sentinel and then have the whole unit of 30 Explode on you Right And there are three by ten shining company layouts Yeah, stretched horizontally. Yeah, yep and there are some uh There are some like model slash situations that Realistically, this doesn't affect too much. I know Like thank well or you know, anybody who's like a single thing like uh, uh, the medusa shrine Or thank well, you know people who are doing like mortal wounds on the charge, right? Uh, it doesn't hurt k.o. Almost at all Because they tend to have small units. Is that what it is? Like no, like if anybody's in a boat or the boats themselves out of boat shooting Yeah, yeah, I was I'm picturing like a thunderer standing on the table But yeah, like yeah thunders on the table it affects but like if the thunders are in the boat, sure not a problem Yeah, yeah, like or the ironclad itself, right? Yep But this is a good change because a lot of the units that really let's be honest that would that abuse unleash hell in a way We didn't love Sentinels bow snakes You know all these kinds of things iron drives to some degree. Yeah Yep, oftentimes You can now control who how many of those models will get to shoot you like it puts that little change puts the power back in the The control of you the charging player A lot to make sure that like, okay, I'll take one raptor to the face. That's fine. I can I can do that right I would say they're the least and of course they're going to be the least impacted because it's going to be a unit of six You can make that unit pretty tight So meaning that it's going to be Easier to maintain six being in range even with the per model as opposed to iron drakes sentinels bow snakes They have a sizable footprint compared to sure and if you're charging that unit Directly Right You're probably still getting clipped by the whole thing in the case of like raptors But oftentimes you couldn't get at the raptors and now you can like raptors are often bubble wrapped Okay, and sometimes you've just got to get in there and eat that and then maybe you can get into on the pile in or whatever whatever, right And the reality is you can like not every game, but often you'll still be able to limit it So that whole unit of rap six raptors ain't shooting at you Right Um, uh, and rellian said that and I agree with him This is they've made similar changes in the past to think about like fire slayer shields On the shield through outright. It was who all was like who got to throw the little Thing was who was within range when they charged He couldn't like straighten out the unit 30 inches long and then have 30 people throw shields from Oh, man. I remember what you said. It was great Sure They just like really spun around a lot and got that Like olympic disc throwing that was absolutely one of my tricks. Sure So, yeah, I mean, I think this is a great change this really weakens the efficacy of unleashed hell The only unit that I think will still not care about this too much are probably like that that is annoying is like salamanders Right because sallies are often in they're in units of one or two. I mean, that's that is simply what they can be taken in And oftentimes the two of them are sitting right next to each other to the point where it's like, well You know, you know, there's just no way around it Yep Uh So, yeah, I mean any other any other thoughts on this do you let me put it this way to you gentlemen tom Does this fix the challenge of unleashed hell or is it still a problem? I I never felt like it was a problem, but I was often playing the armies that was using it. So Yeah, that's what I would say, okay Tyler Oh I suspect If we get some other updates in 2022 particularly maybe in the next quarterly Uh, specifically, I hate the third rules change that we're about to talk about And when I pair that with the changes to unleashed hell I it doesn't go uh unleashed hell may not be quite fixed but on the whole yeah, it's It wouldn't be surprised if this is enough. I'll I'll say that it's quite it's quite good I here's my answer. I think this fixes unleashed hell But it doesn't fix the underlying problem of most of the like many of the problem units Because they didn't do enough to actually reign those bad boys in That's what I was trying to say Yeah, so like I think if you got rid of the problem for units like we weakened them Although they're gonna get a buff here in a second. Yes, I agree Um, but we've weakened their efficacy at shooting off turn, but But we're still not properly coding into their points the fact that every time they're taken every one of the problem units Other than salamanders, I suppose shoots in the hero phase Or shoots twice in some way, right? Yeah Like raptors or judicators shoot twice bow snakes shoot twice Uh, bestilladons shoot twice Right like These are often what that's just what's happening. Yeah We need to I don't know sometimes I feel like we deserve a show in defense entitled in defense of shooting And that we need to have it more in depth, you know, like if I were sometimes I feel like if I were jack And see if we even get tired Hearing people talk about, you know, I don't know I have a solution. Don't play Uh, splity shooting armies and you won't get you won't you won't have to feel bad about people talking about your army Yeah, well, I have an anti shooting bias. So we don't need to spend 30 minutes on this but Like tom, you're a fan of shooting, you know, you have shooting armies, Ben So you have shooting armies. I do worry about, you know, like sometimes I struggle to figure out What's the right balance with these things, you know, like we've got we're gonna be talking a lot about cragnos here tonight And while cragnos is going to be doing we know about iron jaws We've got a number of examples of melee doing work in this game Yeah, yeah And like shooting needs to have a role and I I'm struggling with trying to get a sense of like Where's the middle ground with this stuff? Yeah, sure. It's uh, which is true. It is probably worth the whole show It's it's a tough thing to balance because the game has to have it Otherwise it gets into a real bad place like we were in in mid 2019, which was not positive Right like where where buff heroes little five moon buff heroes were all immortal running around just super charging death star units over and over again And it was a bad time Right and it worked the game in a bad direction. I mean, so I It was pretty fantastic. No, I understand. I mean, I was certainly I was playing slanesh So yes, we were both abusing it. Um, we're both bad people tom um, but The you know, the the reality is is that it's one of those things that people don't like Yeah, right. It's right It's like people don't love when shooting crosses a certain efficacy barrier Yeah, if people feel like they can be beaten solely on shooting without people fighting against them Maybe that's the line I don't know but shooting when we did the npe survey. I mean it was It was number one with a bell Yeah, okay Like it took that blue ribbon and ran with it. All right. Anyways, that would be a good show You know like maybe figure out some litmus tests like for example, should you be able to On average take off a cabbage with thunderbolt six long strikes thunderbolt volley six long strikes Should that because right now in this six up ward that we're about to get into amulet destiny Where you're probably not running that on the cabbage anymore. That's where we're at. You're doing about 19 to 20 damage Um, assuming a few variables assuming like finest. I I did look at that today assuming finest hour And then all that defense and the shooting phase not birds Translocating to get the plus one hit and the hero fate, you know, little things like that, but Should that be a thing? Which is where we are right now in terms of shooting. Anyway, yeah, I'd love to do a show run a lot of that stuff I think that'd be interesting. Sure all right, so 27.5.2 the amulet of destiny We all saw a change coming And like the 94 winter olympics just crack right in the kneecap Uh, the bearer has a ward of six plus Okay, by the way, this is probably the way this thing should have always been written as a universal artifact They shouldn't have ever been the defaults. That is to say this should is how it probably should have come out right But that's great, but we'll keep going but I'm just saying like if you were gonna make a shouldn't here's here's quick argument Tyler shouldn't the core artifacts be milk toast vanilla slightly worse than like in a perfect game assume no priors, okay In a perfect aos world, shouldn't the priors be the core artifacts are milk toast vanilla slightly worse than anything in your book to achieving your army's stuff More than what? although I what about the design principle of Artifacts that can help fill gaps without filling them you can do that And that fits in my world Okay Like that you can have milk toast stuff can sometimes fill a roll Mm-hmm, right like by the way the arcane tome is not a very complicated artifact, but it fills a roll That's what I'm thinking like to me is that one too much for you as a universal? No, okay. Okay. Cool. Yeah. Well, I say I disagree is that to me this should be a Minimum five up against mortal winds period. Sure. That's the universal App that needs to be filled and is now gone True talked about Ignax scales a four up ward which are sorry four up against mortal ones only which I really liked That's the thing that I hate the most about this Uh, what we call it battle scroll Is this change is the lack of going to at least a five up against mortals Yep, and the consequences of that Yeah, I mean I don't disagree. Here's the thing we knew this was coming And it makes me sad and Because they went with the most boring option And you know, it's the most boring option because they wrote the box And it was so boring and empty that they had to go grab a quick art asset and shove it in there To make it to clean up that negative space that they had created Okay, and they're like look at this pile of trash Again meta, right um Yeah, this is the this is the Most boring Sort of potential outcome. That's the most boring world. Yeah We're living in the and it's it's not the best of all possible worlds. It's the boringest of all possible worlds right Um, do you disagree that the amulet didn't need to be changed it needed some change It needed some change. Yes, absolutely. So we're all in agreement there Yeah, I mean the disproportionate impact on things like giants and stuff like that. It just it had to change The question is what did that change look like? Um, I was a fan of the ignax the four plus against mortal wounds. I think that that's what it should have stayed Well, you know what i'm back and I truly love the the insane design of You know the last wound Two up until it fails kind of thing like I think that would have been fun and kooky I know it breaks my own design principle, but it does You know like whatever they're clearly they're breaking it too because they don't they don't actually write good artifacts in the army book so I don't feel like we need to play by those rules, but um You know like the I I just would rather see them see done something fun here and cool in the end Like I know I talked about that should have been the design principle in the void But I actually think that's the boring way to go. I think the cool way to go would be to make these interesting But not powerful Right Yeah, but yeah, it could have been new ignax could have just been a flat five up against mortal wounds only That still would have been better than this because it it would fill a necessary role of giving the important mortal wound protection In a world where there's still too many units doing mortal wounds at range too cheaply Yeah Um, and I do think it's going to be impactful so yeah, I like Overall, I think I come down on this one 51% positively In that it will stop some abuses of Like it will stop empowering abuses in a lot of different armies sure But i'm like 49 percent negative Because it was done in sort of the least interesting way And now all the armies that were actually they're like the softer armies that that were using it to build up there It's like to actually have a hero that could do something They've just lost this as an option Yeah, which quite a few girl boys with their You know 14 wound heroes or maybe even their whatever the breaker boss with like 12 wounds You were talking the other day events about keepers keeper of secrets. Yeah. Yeah, there's quite a few of those But I mean in terms it's I don't think it was that sizable of a category that we were talking about here in terms of abusers We had a cabbage Definitely, I mean the obvious okay mega sure. That's number one. Cool. We had cabbages. We had it was lifting up star drakes A lot of people thought star drakes were unplayable thought they were getting a bad rap They're now really have gotten you know taken down a peg with the heroic recovery change and then this change Uh star drakes are a great example. I mean they were the example as we know Particularly in 2019 of this principle what made them particularly playable Ignacked scales. Yeah, it's just it's I you know, did we fail as a community to like Communicate our thoughts on this collectively that they just they missed what the issue was here The issue is the mortal wound spam. Yeah, particularly ranged mortal wounds. That's what we need amulet to address Not regular damage and this This has not addressed that whatsoever. It's gone in the opposite direction Yeah, the the other thing and I was just about to mention this. So thank you germ Um, you know, we could have like locked this to models under a certain wounds category Right like x wounds or less or without the monster keyword or or or like right like you in other words you could have Drain it in some other way and left it in its old form right could this the bearer has a five up word This cannot be given to you know a model with the monster keyword or with more of the 10 wounds or more or Whatever or or or or or right like again, we went through Over the past six months. I mean we had to have gone through 10 ways to fix this amulet and like Yes, it's fixed but It's fixed in probably the worst possible way And we haven't addressed the underlying problem right, right So That's the issue To me. Yeah, I agree, right Um, and you know, it's hard for me to believe that they'll change this again That they'll eat crow on it No, it's just done I mean like I hope they do I hope they listen to this and go. Oh wait, actually we You're right. You're right. Vince Tyler and Tom. We did fix this in the most boring way possible. Let's put it back to something You know a little more interesting a little more valid And uh, and and we'll go from there Nope, that's not where we're going Uh, but hey Hazier weekly said mega gargants break amulet through overuse ruin things for everyone Yeah Yeah, I mean, yeah Okay Yeah, I mean this is you know Again, so many ways we could have gone. We didn't go there and it's basically now Not a good artifact, I guess that's the way I would say it Well, yeah, that's simple Of the ones that were on the category of who would have taken previously They're never going to take it now cabbage. You're not going to run this on a cabbage. I don't think I mean now I'm all in on the arcane tone build, baby. That's that's it Yeah, yeah, and there's a I think a better version of this that gives you a minus one hit permanently Plus a six up board. I believe in the iron jaws book like armor of gorg or something It reduces your move by two inches. It's plus one to hit a six up ward plus one to hit you lose two inches to movement Yeah Yeah, I mean if you're gonna take it like you don't care about two inches of moving on your cabbage because you can Yeah, a million million ways to move freely. So who cares? Yeah, so okay Data for the mothership do sons still take it? Maybe I mean a six up does do some amount of work over the course of their entire their giant wound profiles But I mean, I'll tell you they're definitely going to prioritize arcane tone over this now It's not it's like if you only have one artifact, you're taking the tone. You're not taking this Fire and pharmacist cabbage meaning. Oh, sorry. We're using shorthand That would be the auric Mega boss on maw crusher who is a tiny little There is a model that looks like a little cabbage because of the way the wings are up like that So we all just call him the shorthand for cabbage um In the same way that we call the gulking on terror guys that come quat for reasons that are just Completely up to It's a thing. Yeah these things happen. Hmm. Okay uh Before we leave this little section Anything else in the core rules here that didn't change That you were hoping to see change other than coherency, which you already talked about save stacking lake, but specifically numbered rules Anything you didn't see here another artifact command trait We have some outstanding issues with uh garrisoning, right? There are some outstanding issues with garrisoning. Yes, you can pile in from a garrison, which is insane It's just Yes, that should be fixed I'll I'll give you that one 100% good one tom The bodyguards, you know style has been officially cleaned up the confusion that lingers around that or I don't know if it's confusion is the right word, but just the mess that lingers around bodyguards bodyguard was just warded or warded in such a way that it says, you know, like x You know such and such unit gives ward four plus To a nearby unit Every time damage is prevented this way this unit suffers one mortal wound. That's an unpreventable So it utilizes the mechanic that we already have there's no confusion on whether it stacks There's you know, like you think we could back end and just get around all that confusion by using probably they have to go and rewrite All the scrolls that's what they don't want to do But yes, it's the right way to do it tom having a trigger Set up exactly like it was exactly where my brain went to even I think very similarly along this line But yes setting up a triggered set of conditions like that is the right way to go Yeah Yeah, just say hey, you give this buff to a nearby unit that prevents damage But every time it prevents damage you suffer, uh, you know damage you can't prevent Done It doesn't surprise me. They didn't touch battle red You know, we talked a lot about battle regiment in the in the wish list show It doesn't surprise me. They didn't touch it yet I I hope that's still on a hit list for future shows Oh my gosh. Yeah episodes your camera turned off by the time which I assume okay that was the one that I really sat down and thought enough about it You know in terms of we we had quite a bit of discussion I'd be curious what tom's views and summary are on that one benz You know, I I told you I just couldn't quite figure out whether it's just largely moving the goalpost Not making enough meaningful difference In terms of the of the ecosystem, but tom there just needs to be a cost There just needs to be a greater cost than what currently this Well, that's why I like the idea of fixing the battle reg by just removing the amount of units you could put into it Right, right. Like yes You just cut you make it so that like Battle red army with it. You're just shrinking drops Right, you're yeah, you're reducing drops by utilizing battle regiment. You're not actually like racing to one Yes, you should you should be able to have like a maximum of like one hero in there one monster in three of three units Which is more or less exactly what I changed it to. Yep I I saw that show, but I don't remember. Well, that's fine. I have no doubt. We come to the same conclusion like I said, so, you know, yeah Exactly, that's yes, because I do think the concept of controlling drops is an interesting one Right, that's you're not getting an artifact or you're not doing something else Blah blah blah blah cool. Like that's a that's a choice. I'm okay with that as a choice It's a cool thing. It's good for johnny. Like there's a whole psychographic profile that really likes that But the issue is It's not a good choice when the benefit is so huge and outweighs everything else by being a by being your whole army Can almost like in many forces and this is by the way, this isn't true across all armies, which also leads to inequity But many competitive armies can just fit their whole force into a battle rich And it's like if you're one of the armies that can do that. What a great day for you Right, right, and if you're not sorry about your luck, you don't ever get the choice That's kind of no, I mean, I think I think that's exactly where we're at, right? Yeah And whereas you can put in some units and so instead of taking You know a warlord and a commandant rod or something or I don't know whatever, you know Pick your pick your other things that are going to give you tangible benefits Instead of picking those you're picking to reduce your drops. Okay. Well, now you made a choice, but you're not racing to one drop right No, we need to move on but a lesson on the skies is that yeah, if you do that It could also allow for more control through the battle tomes core battalions So let's take nurgle Nurgle all a sequel like you look at nurgle and you think nurgle wants to be a one drop all a sequel to have the choice Of going first so that they don't get alpha pens in their deployment Like that's kind of like a natural thought when you look at that book may not always come up There's plays against it etc etc You can have a core battalion that allows them to take a unified battalion so that nurgle Yeah, like that so you could if you take that approach you could have certain factions that You know could use it more and exploit it less could lead to that within the battle tom Yeah, it's just so fascinating to me because that's not something that Yeah, anyways, right We'll have to do another show because for nurgle like I read that book and I was like I don't need to be one drop I'll just not be on the table. Sure. I mean you just know the right. Yeah, I mean there you go Okay, uh, we're I'm gonna skip the order box. Well, I'll just say it quickly. I guess here's what I'll do They changed Marathi got better she now gets the whole spell lore She got what the other gods have been getting And they changed the laurels or their intention was to change the laurels A laurel always got the whole spell lore, but you got to take it with her So even if she showed up in cities, yeah, she had the whole spell lore Whereas now it's if she's in sylvanith army, which is how they wanted it to work She takes this then she gets the whole spell lore otherwise No, right, so That's they gained all spells from their lore in their own army is what I'm meaning to say by my extra note down at the bottom there Um, they're not in a gosh Yeah, right, but yes, she got marathi got better So I can't wait to see we're not doing points yet. I can't wait to see what her points went up to It's going to be exciting for us to reveal I haven't looked at it at all yet. So I'm sure her points went up. So we'll we'll just see what happens there Uh Destruction crag knows got a new scroll. I'm not going to read this. We're going to go to the crag knows scroll in a minute Uh, but I'm super excited about it destruction bros Uh, it's time, baby. That was the time Uh for the destruction bros to rule Uh chaos Couple important changes here. Archeon got a new war scroll. We'll dig into it But there was a real big change here for everybody who's not slanesh And I guess now nergal Because nergal had this this change through their book And uh leon it's a it's a joke. I know. Um the um The um The big change here is that effectively The disciples of zinj and blades of corn have now adapted to the new world that slanesh was already mostly living in and and uh and that, um What do I want to say here that that nergal was definitely living in where coalition units are there to be a Interesting narrative piece for you if you feel like including them in your army And that is that's allies or good allies. Yeah, that's like slightly better allies. You get to have more of right, right They're they're allies where there's not a you there's not the same cost. Yes So what I'm saying here is that what they did is they there's a two-part Attack, let's let's get this on the table In blades of corn and disciples of zinj and he'd knights of slanesh, right? Yep So What they did is they they this is already true in the nergal tone. We talked about it last week They said Okay Everybody in these books now has this keyword if it wasn't something you used already like heat knights, right? You don't have this plates of corn keyword or cycles of zinj keyword And then they changed the relevant things to say The relevant rules like the blood tithe reward table or destiny dice or whatever To say Your only blades of corn or disciples of zinj keyworded units get to use these rules Right And then they updated the coalition thing to say You can't benefit from allegiance abilities Right, right So If you're playing one of the god armies now Your cast knights your cast sorcerer lord your war shrines your I don't know man pick your thing Okay They don't get any of the allegiance abilities anymore Now I will state this was already true In slanesh. That's why most of slanesh players were like Whatever You know because that was already the world we lived in Yeah Already they didn't benefit from allegiance abilities as it were And obviously nergal is there too But I do think this has some ramifications Uh across the board But tyler what's your take on this what's your read on this? Yeah, we could have summarized this with a obviously no soup for you. Nice little meme would have been good here The yeah, we talked about this, you know, my bias is generally like to see Armies on the table that reflect not only their faction for the most part But that the variety of the model range within that faction ideally As opposed to you know, certainly daren watson has talked a lot about how we do have some examples of spam being incentivized You know this week he mentioned that maybe a lot of things are made battle line right now that should not be battle line You know, you can literally have like, I don't know Some ridiculous number of fulminators and in regard to steel soul and call that a list Because they can be made battle line, but Yeah, I think I'm biased to like it I get why a number of people aren't gonna be upset about this, you know, because maybe they have a soup army And it's it's such a pattern change seemingly a pattern change on the flip side You know, if we have more if slaves of darkness 3.0 looks more like storm cast 3.0 where a lot more is on the war scrolls Then that you know may lessen the blow of this Okay, as you just plug and play those war scrolls like what we're seeing right now people do in living city with fulminators or Whatever and borrowing from the storm cast book. Sure with the city of sigmar Yeah, I mean, that's exactly kind of my frustration with the change because the coalition got kicked in the In the jubilee in the jubilee and yet we have like functionally coalition existing with cities of sigmar But they gain keywords. So it's like coalition, but it's full army inclusion Sure, so it's coalition, but not and so like if they're going to change coalition. I don't understand why they're not doing it for all all of the books So they're actually just creating a disparity as to what coalition even means Because in cities of sigmar coalition looks very different than what it does in chaos. Sure Sure. That's a good point And that bothers me Practically, it's even weird like there's a difference between coalition units and settlers gain and in um And in the other cities things sure because uh settlers gain. I don't think they gain the keywords So it's just it's a weird Like or maybe it's not settlers gain. Maybe it's uh Uh the other one Regardless like the other non-book expansion one sure, but the but the point ultimately and this is my frustration Is that they're not consistent Okay It's an interesting point The city's point's interesting because you're right. You've got fulminators popping in and just benefiting from everything in living cities or whatever, right? For reasons that don't make any sense And and my so so let's just balance this out. Let's put this out on the scales Okay, yep on the one hand Over here on the positive side with coalition stuff Yep, you have let's call it the versimilitude of the thing This is a corn army. These are corn marked knights corn marked warriors corn marked war shrines Whatever and I want to include them in my army and feel like they're functional because that's the army. I want to make Okay, so that's that's your weight over here on the on the on this side of the scale On this side of the scale You have probably the impossibility of balance if you allow this Yes because We've talked in the past. I've talked a little bit about this the difference between open-ended rules and closed rules Okay, so a closed rule Can't get any better on its own based on future publications like the medican shift around it or things like that But it's it's a closed system. Yeah, right. Yep It can be better or worse in the meta. It can be that but it will always be what's written there And it will never be more than it's it's isolated its rules don't actually Reach beyond itself correct an open rule is something that is will be impacted based on future publications Yes, okay yeah and coalition units Are by nature an open rule Yeah, because Okay, let's take the nergal book Let's assume so the nergal book has what 23 units in it or something like that Yep, if coalition units can benefit from everything In the nergal book then they don't need to balance 23 units. They need to balance Whatever 90 100 depending right Because they also have beasts and they also have You know scaven and all that stuff right a lot You explode it up to over a hundred Worse roles right that they suddenly have to balance and think about is anything going to cause a weird broken combination here Where suddenly you're not playing in your book and what you see is spam lists of this thing Suddenly it's all gores on the table As if but you get my point right Now the problem that is let's assume they actually could do that work, which by the way, I don't Think it's possible, but let's assume they could All right, I'll grant them that they can look across the landscape right now take all 100 plus scrolls And figure out exactly how to balance it so you're never trying to bust coalition And it never becomes the default choice Okay, and and the spammy choice Yep All right, well then they want to put out a new Beast of cast book Again, I kid but let's all let's all imagine right Yep, okay. Well now they have to make sure that any change they make to that boc book They've got to go back and figure out how the changes they're making here Are going to reflect back into The nergal book and back into the corn book and back into the slanesh book and back into the zinch book Yep, and so the the testing load Which like look, it's not the strong suit Okay, just becomes way higher Sure, and ultimately It leads to a bad situation Right, and this is why I think that like I would like to see this my answer to your conundrum Tom Yep, is I'd like to see them execute some of the same stuff in Cities or or whatever or in you know in other armies where this is happening And you're just saying to cut off any possible Brokenness. Yeah shenanigans Now you guys look at living cities commandability right now With four fulminators. We just went through this debate You know about translocation with the storm cast battle tone and generally was agreed upon like that It's a bad idea Right, and then we just recreated the ability to do it in a different army in living cities. Yeah Right And yeah, so it becomes the problem is we can't have coalition units being Because you want to make those units good And if they end up being having a better role than they then they out if they suddenly for your hammer unit You're not just looking at the two hammers in your book. You have to look across eight different hammer units Yes Right and make sure that somehow the nergal one always wins out Right. Yeah in the nergal book And and it's just not going to happen So my answer is It's all all rules decisions are a double-edged sword. They come with good and bad But I think ultimately this is the right choice and I'd love to see it extended farther. It sucks For the positives over here, and I completely acknowledge the positives. You can still use those troops. They're still in there Right, so if you really want to include them and by the way sometimes those scrolls might be good enough on their own That's exactly it. Yeah, and that's I mean that might be a perfectly functional modular piece, right? Yeah Exactly Right I could see them go. Yeah doubling down on that with the next slave's darkness battle tone where that'll be the case Right, you know the two buckets of yeah modular modularity where the scroll is just fine in self or the scroll has a Function, you know, it's the knight in cancer with the dispel scroll that you want in your list to keep Whomever alive or whatever from hand to portal the hand of death. Yeah, yep Yep so to me it's It's the right change But it's a change that comes with a lot of pain Yeah, but it will make for a healthier ecosystem in the long run because I don't like living in the world where five armies this is the world we lived in for a long time Where five armies the right choice was spam or otters Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah We we cannot ever return to the world where marauders are the best choice for all for all the armies Now I will agree corn took a kicking here Okay, they have to get a new book zone. Come on god. I hope so They need it like I want that new corn book so bad Yeah, especially after looking at the work of it and how it's written really bad really quite quite badly I think it'd be amazing Because I can't wait to see how corn looks In a world where we're writing books that actually match the theme of the army Right. And and this only doubles down on the insult of not actually lifting up The lower armies like they had originally said they were going to do that's like this makes that pain a little worse Yeah Because they took a kicking And then got nothing in compensation and that's kind of crappy school reapers went down 10 points or whatever. Yeah Bloodwires down 10 points. Yeah Okay, so There we go Uh, like I said, we'll get to we'll get to to big daddy Archeon in a moment Death Nagash big old change Again, you think these all have in individual scrolls. We're gonna hate all A lot of changes in death the the world of death is shaking up Martin Orlando by the way earlier said why it was Nagash the picture. Isn't he dead? That's just lumen f propaganda. Don't believe it. Okay Uh, a couple other just small changes that were in the individual FAQs The holy commands thing we had asked for to be cleaned up did get cleaned up. We got clear word language on that Uh My my whinging behind the scenes paid off. Yeah, I take a little bit of credit for that The drake scale armor got cleaned up. We know it doesn't work against random damage. It's only against higher damage numbers So good stuff. I was happy to see both those clarifications. Still a couple out there that are weird like, you know In our chat, tyler, you were discussing the Uh, Aventus slash, you know, uh, Torilon Yes, comment trail a pulse or an aura It's after a normal move. We don't have to get in the details of it, but it's it's open to interpretation I think that based on the wording it has to be a pulse Meaning that we have I don't know if you guys have any examples of an aura That's written in the way that that comment trail is written, you know, like usually aura is I mean it's conditions. It's a pulse Yeah, yeah, I mean it's there's lots of rules written as conditions like that, right? Yeah, it's just an unusual condition because it's triggered on a move But if you think about it not again think symbolic logic not the language there, right? Yeah, the symbolic logic of that statement would be the same as 100 other rules Right. If x condition is met then y bonus is achieved. Yeah Yep Okay And I tried it over four games as an aura and it sucks So like it just it feels incoherent. No, I mean, yeah, it's clearly been Okay, uh Let's get into the individual scrolls Shall we gentlemen? Yep Well, and these are going to go in order of uh, these are going in a specific order. You'll you'll figure it out You'll figure it out viewers Uh, hey, look if you're a destruction bro and you haven't hit like yet and we're on cragnos You need to hit like and subscribe because this is this is a step away from just becoming a destruction bro channel. I'll tell you what Uh, because cragnos, I'm I'm excited about this bad boy here All right big craggy Uh Still basically the same stuff. Let's talk about his new stuff Still got his war master still got his bellow of rage um end of empires If a friendly destruction unit is wholly within 12 inches of this unit You can attempt to charge With that unit if it is within 18 inches of an enemy unit instead of 12 In addition when making a charge roll for a friendly destruction unit fully within 12 of this unit Roll 3d6 instead of 2d6 Oh boy That's a that's a big bonus Oh my god I hope they did some play, you know some real play testing With a lot of armies of just handing out massive charge bonuses To all the armies. Oh, yeah Yes, well, I mean like let's talk about implications. Let's go down the list here. Okay. Yeah um And talk about impacts. Let's start with the geats um Some fun stuff. I thought about like if I was going to complete the destruction Entire army list. I would do a trolls army and then just gonna have cragnos in it and then have all my trolls charging Uh 3d6 inches because it's trolls aren't the fastest things. That's kind of a fun way to move them No, no, you're thinking too small buddy. Okay You need to go with Uh us a squig based boingrott bounders Sure, um doing the impact hits sure Um when they come in and so that 18 inch charge is actually doing something when you land it. How about tom Hold on. No, I disagree. What I need to do is go with the pie in the face army I originally discussed two years ago When we came out when we were first doing the geats review with all the skitter strand of rock rocks, you know what I mean Yeah, a little those little idiots Yep And can they still pop up? Is that still a thing they do? Some of them can yeah, but the the writerless one can still ambush, right? Yes. That's what I thought. Okay I was pretty sure that was a thing the writerless one could do So the key is you pop you get like cragnos just needs to get like way out there Like he just runs way out there because he doesn't care And then you pop them all up and now they're all rolling 3d6 for their nine inch charge And I'm into you with pie plates Like all turn one. I'm just I'm I'm pie plating you I mean, I don't I don't hate that And I've got like a four model army that's going to totally lure. Well, I have a lot more than that Spiders skitters regular skitter strands are super cheap now. I can have like a 15 I hear that And I raise you in an ogre army Well, we're not two ogres yet. We're in geats. We're in geats right there Right, but we're but we're just we're running we're running through the uh Let's go to ogres where it's so obvious. Yes. Okay. Go ogres Yeah ogre I raise you an ogre army that's now going to throw 3d6 dice Um for impact heads Yeah, yep Like this makes me want to run if they had just fixed the coherency issue to push it to six right Yeah, that's all they needed and the wall of meat army of just glutton's around cragnos Just six packs of them. Just running in like lunatics Oh, man, it could have been so much fun Oof But yes, uh, I mean, obviously if you can get it on the units where you're going We're on the four ups. So monsters are units of eight or more You know, obviously that's crazy crazy crazy impact hits for all of those So for your monsters your your monster trucks or your I guess I don't know. I'm trying to think what else generally will breach that eight line Probably iron guts, I suppose if you take because iron guts come in fours and go to eights. Don't think that sounds right off the top of my head So anyways, yeah, I'm not sure. Yeah Um, how many bonuses to cast can you get up to? And a meaningful list and it gets army Or a hand of gork a reliable Whatever it's called or tell I'm guessing hand of gork. Yeah Yeah, or whichever one maybe that maybe that would yeah, maybe that would be a thing I mean plus two plus three pretty reliably Okay, so yeah, I mean some of that's depending on like the moon because the moon affects that and obviously that's not a reliable source Um, well the moon is the re-rolls, right? Or is that bonus now the moon is straight plus one Because the original the pot this the arachnid rock pot is plus one yeah, and um And scrag rot brings his own plus one. Yeah, scraggy has his own plus one. Yes Uh, and then and then the moon could get you to plus three and scrag rot can manipulate the moon sure Okay, uh for giants You know, I I think fund it like it's cool. I love it with with sons of badmout But the problem there likely is is that he's still like this guy didn't change points He's still 720 or whatever. So he's just kind of an odd Points value to fit into a giant army because it's going to be him two megas and then I think like two little babies or whatever. I don't I don't remember exactly how that was. We got a one little baby Yeah, I I checked war score builder two gate two breakers him and a baby. I think 1940 There you go. Yeah, I think it depends how much you choose because if you if you Nope, that's that's right. Yeah, it's still it's always that. Yeah um So yes, it's like that's just an odd build Because then you will you go from an army that normally has four hammers to three hammers Well, what about the let's take the beer match Is for it. What's the classic right now like two breakers? A oh no, it's it's like a break two break two breakers two more Very four megas, you know, yes four megas, right? Okay. So is that more likely to win against cragnos two breakers and a baby? I think so, yes I would I would tend to think cragnos would be favored in that matchup. Why is why is the cragnos less not favored Because I have four guys who could be worth 30 you have one guy who's worth You know potentially 30 and then two other dudes and then a guy worth 15 If we're just like take or drive against take or drive or something, you know, yeah Yeah, but but cragnos is going to blow people up on the charge for this on the charge and the 3d6 charge Yeah, that's what I'm thinking about. I mean cragnos would kill a giant at term. Like he would he would go track giants He yes, depending it He comes in like a wrecking ball His rampage Yeah, if he came in on that rampaging destruction like a wrecking ball, he could lift a giant at her Sure, sure. Yeah. All right. His other big changes. He got mightiest makes rightiest, right? Um, oh, is there any destruction arm? Oh for oryx, uh for the iron jaws. Um, could be fun I don't think you need it. You'd be taking him instead of a, uh, Uh mega boss on mawcrush lately because likely because I don't know how that list fits otherwise in any reasonable way with bodies But it could be an interesting option Can can I ask the question? Is this the solution to giants? What's that? Oh, that's where we're going to go. Yes. So mightiest makes rightest Cragnos counts is 30 then goes 25 2018. So he has a diminishing Obesack, right? Your presence. Okay. Yeah This is actually a question I was going to tee up tom. Are we looking at the future of Sons of bad month. I think so. Like, I think this is the answer right here. This is a bad answer. I can tell you why this is a bad answer, but go ahead. That's fine. But I think that this is the this is the future that gw is currently exploring Now, whether they actually trot that out or not is, you know, we'll we'll depend on Uh, uh, we'll depend on what You know ends up happening in the meta You know, like how functional this is or not and it'll also depend on the types of arguments that get trotted out here. Sure If you don't change the initial condition setting, this seems like a reasonable answer But then the within the direction we're headed Yes So here's why I don't like Here's why I don't love this tom Sure. Um And it's not because it makes giants weaker. I I don't care about that at all. Um, I think they should get I think they should get a bit of a kicking Like I I just hate the way the giant book is designed. I always have and I always will until they redesign it in a better way um First of all cragnosis is still pretty big Like even at the top of the chart, he's still 18 I'm not sure that's actually a meaningful diminishment in the current meta of his ability to hold an objective Like most units aren't bigger than five right now. So, you know Not sure what 18 is still pretty good But secondly what this What this would incur like I'm a giant player and let's say I've got this rule in some way like I go 20 15 10 5. I don't know. Yeah It just it you're saying it it just adds it's that uh, it's that middle lever of confusion of like rather than switches You just have a bunch of random Values that now you have to double check and no, that's not actually my concern because I feel like I could internalize it I mean sure whatever it is more complexity. You're not wrong But no, that's not actually what my issue is Tom If I'm a giant player and I know if I take wounds I get worse at holding objectives Right, what's my incentive could not take damage retreat retreat retreat Never fight Fighting is how you lose you lose wounds right, right And so any time I have the option to retreat and still hold the objective I'm going to take Right, which I don't always have the option for but I often do Right and by the way now with heroic recovery working how it does you bet I'm going to retreat so then I can heroic recovery as well Okay, all this all this chart would encourage me to do it make them lose more Sure If that's only the goal like let's say it went 2010 2015 10 5 You know a much more sort of crushing diminishment in their ability to hold Craggies is pretty significant still Yeah, those seem a little too high. Uh, it yeah and applied to giants. Yeah, I mean he's like this dude ain't losing objectives in most cases Yeah, but at any rate What it would make me do is play a less interactive game of warhammer even less so than now Giants want to win by walking up and standing as it is, but like sometimes you'll fight Now my hard incentive would be fight as little as possible Yeah, like just never fight if I can avoid it Always toe always retreat just period Because fighting is how the fighting is how the wounds happen Right, no it makes sense Yeah, it creates a really a skewed incentive structure, right? That's the problem If you want to change the way giants play to where they actually want to play warhammer You'd have to fundamentally change the rule So it's like they only get to count as some number of a lot of models If they charged or slain models in combat or something like that, right? Make it tied to them playing the game so they can't just stand still Yeah Anyways, okay. So yeah. Oh and the shielding violet now is a ward of six up. That's his other change Yep, okay Yeah, good change. Thank god. It's not a five up question final question on uh On craggy And then we get to the support part Is he now worth? 720 points will we see craggy on the table Yes, he's worth that 100% Yeah, like in john like certainly in ogres And probably against he's worth it Okay I think we'll we could see him in iron jaws as well. You could so I was looking at list today You you take out a cabbage you do crag nose cabbage and Or channel a couple more channels you still get a good number of bodies You might just go crag nose bodies But yeah, probably do a cabbage in him and you still get quite a bit Yeah, I wonder if it's like, um Uh, I wonder if it's like You don't use the the big guy the the cabbage you use him in the foot megaboss because you can still do you still get a double Absolutely. He's still two for one as opposed to the megaboss on mawcrestis three for one Yep There could be something there because you can still have a lot of meat on the table Yeah With that master Yeah, master magic, uh, to re-roll hennep gork or you do the touch by waw Yep To tap your yeah your units for d3 mortals or the enemy unit if you're in range to yeah generally turn on hennep gork Yeah teleport forwards within the 3d6 range Yeah, there's definitely tricks that you could probably execute with just the megaboss on foot. Yeah, I mean 3d6 on Like pigs and brutes seems pretty exciting to me. I'm not gonna lie Yeah Uh, it sounds really exciting on particular ogres like I definitely Um, you know, I you know, I think iron jaws are already very fast But like ogres, it's super exciting on because of how it works with their core mechanic Like I think you see him a lot in in ogre armies like replace it because a lot of their other monster trucks were pretty underwhelming anyways Mm-hmm, right um So like if you were going to do a monster truck build you could still take the frost lord on stone horn and this guy and you know figure out the list from there of other monster truck battle line and That like it works. I I know you can fit like the stone horn enough of those dudes Or some cats or whatever for uh for an ambush and this and and him in there like I don't You know, I haven't looked at the points, but there is a list in there somewhere It's interesting I still yeah, well, I mean my bet would be we're going to see a fair amount of cragnos double breaker and a baby at 1940 And that that's going to do pretty you know That will do well that that that will be fine against the double war stopper double breaker or whatever You know mix and match your crack in your in your gate breaker Personally, I like that more at least not looking at it on paper Then than the two war stopper with the gate breakers or whatever So we'll see Yeah, it's I mean like look I love 3d6 charges on giants You know, I ran the I was the sort of weirdo who always ran stomper tribe And I did so because you could get a 3d6 charge artifact on your war stomper And I found it made a huge difference on that guy's efficacy huge difference Um because 3d6 charges just let you catch people out Yeah, you know, even if I like sometimes I'd have a short charge six inches and then suddenly roll like a 15 And it's like whoa my options just became real interesting As to where that guy can go, right? It just opens up the door to interesting possibilities And now the fact that you can sort of bubble that It's interesting That's true. Cragness is not flying. You know, he's not walking over units So worst helper could yeah move that 15 and walk over potentially get somewhere that he otherwise Well, you can't it's only on normal moves. You don't get to move over people on charge I just mean like I thought they fixed no, they discovered in the restriction on Stupid train being higher than four inches The but the point being is that like going straight ahead versus going Like 15 inches around like it's you know, when you can do this You can often you could often times lap around people's chat, right when suddenly you just And we talked about Nagash now explode. Yes, Tom Sorry, Tom I'm so ready. I'm so ready for this. I understand So I agree Crag knows worth it is 720. I think he will show up in lists. Okay Yeah Big daddy death here it comes. That's right. Oh, okay Big daddy had some changes here. We're the original bone daddy. He is the is the original bone daddy the first The first and foremost okay Basically a lot of the same stuff 16 wounds trip save nine inch move yada yada east and gosh he floats around on ghosts Get get to the hotness vents. Well, hold on. I want to talk about there's some minor stuff here, too um, his weapon profiles changed Uh, like he has four attacks now with alakanesh. He used to have one Um, but four attacks on a on a neg three rend weapon that does d6 damage is actually kind of interesting They're they're trying to make him more effective in melee. Like that's a scary thing Just wait till he gets the right spell lore. Sure. Sure. I understand And uh, so, you know, he had some uh, his I will say zeppet Nebtar or whatever his other silly thing is. I don't know which one's which I don't know which is the staff and which is the sword, but whatever um It went from threes and threes to threes and fours. So that is a slight downgrade there at the same time Uh, yes, autumn lotus. We talked about coalition units I don't think you would come down on the same side as me on this discussion But I completely did do understand your side and hope I represented it. Well, I imagine I imagine just from I think how I how well I know you at this point Okay Still a wizard. He's a war master. This unit can be included in What armies tom why knight haunt flesh eater courts ostearc bone reapers or soul blight grave lords Do you remember back when we did like a wish list like it's been a while Yeah, yeah, and your number one thing was I want to gosh in my knight haunt army Yeah, like give me negation My knight haunt army and it covers over a multitude of sins. Guess what it does It does now. I mean it just makes it makes knight haunt negation and a bunch of ghosty boys, but Yeah, sorry, um And then I can I'll I'll geek out about the the significance here Sure Anytime you get excited tom the rest of us get terrified just to go on the record remind everybody About the context. We're dealing with here. All right. Continue. Okay. Let's talk about the tangible changes Then how this is going to impact the way he plays. Yeah, indeed Invocation to gosh five different friendly summonable units or ostearc bone reapers units can heal up to three wounds So meaning he can do those with flesh eater courts units Or or with knight haunt units or whatever Yeah um he Because he can be put in those armies, however He does not benefit from their allegiance abilities. No gosh the lord of death does not benefit from you You benefit from me Okay So He no longer gets for example the six up word In the various death forces, right because the death forces all have like some kind of six up word that they hand out under conditions or whatever He doesn't get that anymore Uh, he has his base four upward, but it only works against mortal wounds And it now, um What is this? What is this? What are you talking about a stupid thing? Okay uh, and as well it, uh What would you detect? Okay, it's still catching me fine. All right good I don't know why suddenly I thought I had a new audio device. Have fun. Um at any rate, uh You know and he still kicks back mortals and so on and so forth Uh Supreme lord of the undead got a big change If this unit is on the battlefield when you use an ability that returns slain models to a friendly death unit You can either reroll the dice that determines the number of slain models returned to that unit Or add one to the number of slain models that are returned to that unit Do you know what my favorite part about that new ability is? What's that? It works on its own invocation Sure sure So invocation register returns three wounds or three wounds of models And so let's say that you return a hex wraith, right with your two wound He returns two hex wraiths to each you to up to what five different units correct? right intended or not Say what intended or not That's raw right now well and like Like when we're talking like uh life swarm, right? Yeah Um life swarm is a d3 and now it's a d3 plus one and it'll double tick And so you'll return between two and four hex wraiths per life swarm cast yeah It's a assignable list. I've already heard about the potential implications of this one rule. It's getting me worried Oh, there's a lot of there's a lot. We're not done with his changes yet. So I'm so excited go on death magic incarnate Uh, this is his new command ability. So his old command ability of re-roll ones and battle shock community is gone Uh, and then now instead he has you can use this command ability if this unit's on the battlefield at the start of the combat phase This unit receives this command must be a different friendly death unit. So he can't do it to himself Add one to ward roles for that unit until the end of that phase Uh, so this is only in the combat phase but in the combat phase. He can give somebody basically Uh, if they've got a six of ward as we mentioned all death units generally do Assuming oftentimes they need to be in your heroes or whatever But if the ward is kicking then it's suddenly except for him. He doesn't get it He can't do it. Well, yes, because he's not benefiting from your piddly allegiance abilities He is beyond them because he doesn't get a six plus death save anymore No, he does not he's just and then he saw his hand of dust and soul stealer. Okay So and and then and obr He can use rdp to do that and only that right, right so This guy had a lot of changes Yeah, uh, clearly This this guy was like this guy's like gandalf over here. He gets killed. He comes back. Just totally different So, uh, yeah, this is the consequence of him dying to the lumina Sure Okay So Where are we at with this guy? We're about to talk about knight haunt I mean, let's just go through the armies because this is going to be the way we need to frame this Right. Yes. Yeah. All right When we do knight haunt first go with knight haunt because you're very excited I am so excited He lost he lost the big thing that made him out of bounds in my opinion, which was the command ability The whole nonsense of real That was pretty unhealthy for the game Sorry, the oan jackson. You know what you did Over over this year have a lot of tournaments and get on you for it. But yeah, anyway, sorry to interrupt you, tom so so what's so fascinating is that Really just laughing at all the people talking about my gosh showing up with only with lady o and be like, don't you ever talk to me or my daughter again like that It's just to bring your daughter to work day. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry, tom. I'm really enjoying this comment so The reality is is that knight haunt has suffered from the lack of having a hammer And it's suffered from the lack of having like a big distraction carnefx like peace. Yep And negash does both of those things in spades. Sure Interestingly, he's a wonderful recipient for mystic shield because nothing else in the army can get it. Sure And so like it's a it's a real interesting like perk that he has so the In my mind, there's two really kind of egregious things that happen here. One is the model restore and we've talked about that We talked about the fact that restoring models is something that he does very well And that knight haunt wants to do a lot of already between lady o who's restoring if she's a general one one model per unit You have a model restore in the black coach. You have model restore in lord of the spirit host, which is a command trait And both of those are those are actual Model restores. Yeah, this is my spirit lure by the way for the little two six and rike nor's thing Right, but the problem with spirit lure is that it's 2d6 wounds I understand if you were to use it on chain rafts, it's just another guy Yes, it's one more guy, but when you use The lord of the spirit host it's a d3 models When you use the um black coach, it's a d3 models And so on multi wound models, you're literally like restoring multiple wounds when you do And so you're getting tons of actual gas out of it and out of him um So there's just lots of really interesting combinations, but the real win here for me the real win Is the knight haunt spell lure I was already Leaning into like a five wizard knight haunt list just because the spell lore is that friggin ball buster And the fact is is that in this new Like lineup he can be included in the army and he gets all the knight haunt spells So most of you don't probably know what the knight haunt spell list lineup looks like So let me just do a brief refresher Okay First is life stealer that does mortal wounds And it heals the caster. Let me address the comment real quick here Um, the reason he does still get the spells is because that's a he up here under the wizard portion where it says if this unit is part of knight haunt bless your courts Osirac boner versus soul break green lords It knows all of the spells from the spell lords and that factions allegiance in addition to the other spells It knows so this carves an exception out of this Out of the of the allegiance no benefiting allegiance and we'll talk about benefiting allegiance here in a minute. Okay So let's return. So he has a short range mortal wound Uh that heals himself. I'll take it. Um, he has reaping scythe casts on a four Not too shabby. Uh, he chooses a weapon. He re-rolls all hits and wounds with that weapon Mm-hmm. So Alex is on. Yeah, like a three up three every rolling. Yeah re-rolling neg three d6 damage. Yes, please um Shade mist he chooses a knight haunt Unit nearby that knight haunt unit is minus one to wound. We all know how good that minus one to wound ability is How about soul cage? Also short range again all of these spells inherently want you to be in your combat and now with negosh He's going to be in combat. That's the key is you're going to throw him in the combat um And soul cage that unit can't retreat until your next hero phase Oh, and they strike last When they activate in the combat phase So it's still he now has re-rolling hits and wounds always strikes last can neg one to wound a rend unit And do damage and heal himself and we're only four of the six spells in Yeah, um, the next is spectral tether. So if there isn't a knight haunt unit nearby He can heal it a d3 wounds So he has just a straight healing for other knight haunt units and then finally spirit drain my favorite underrated unit given the presence of um giants in the meta Spirit drain cast on a four 18 inch range. You throw a dice for every wound Oh In there in there on their worst bowl He's got bastion's thunderborn on a six does a mortal On a six does a mortal. Wow. Yeah, that's pretty hot. Um, and so That's the knight haunt spell lord that most people don't know anything about and uh, He's just like it's just so good for him because it it it blends with what he wants to do Which is to go in and smash phase sure gives him extra survivability It gives them all the the other things I'll also say the reaper is going to make a big difference in his damage output like huge Because as it stands right now, he's not actually that damaging You know, right? Somebody had said, you know distraction carn effects aren't actually supposed to be scary And I would argue that like he's not actually that threatening in melee Normally just raw just like base on the scroll his damage is okay At best like he's not actually a super damaging piece However, when the difference between him with Reroll and hits and wounds and him normal is really big Uh as to what that's gonna do to his damage output Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah Of course mostly he was doing the work with the eight arcane bolts that he was coming in with Yes, of course, that that was that was always the majority of his damage. Yes He can still come in with a couple Yeah, right like he can still come in with five and have a bunch of these other spells online Mm-hmm Right like that's the egregious part of this or the fact that like if he's paired with uh, lady o Her spell gives an enemy unit minus one to hit and all units attacking that plus one to hit. Yeah. Yeah So now he's on and if he finds a sour, he's on twos and twos re-rollable. Sure I mean again, it's take your daughter to work day for sure with him. Yes. Um, yeah Okay, um So hold on do we want to talk about the emerald host question because people are already discussing it in the chat Yes, yeah, so one of the things that I pointed out like right when this dropped Um on the whatsapp and our private chats and stuff like that one of the things that I noticed was that when you read the emerald host There's an ability that hex rates are granted That allows them to intercept damage for nearby generals Mm-hmm Nagash is a general when he's included in any night hot army. Yeah, and so On my read of the ability currently Um, it It allows the hex rates to intercept damage for him Which means that hex rates would grant him a two plus Bodyguard Yeah, so the question here becomes like this is definitely an FAQ question because I've seen people arguing it both ways And I understand both sides of this argument Yep, because it clearly says Nagash cannot benefit from allegiance abilities But the allegiance ability is affecting the hex rates and granting them an ability to bodyguard for the general Which he is Yeah, okay And so the question then becomes does that get around it? Or is it or is that meant to be? You know Yes, or no. Look, I can read it both ways. I get both arguments. I don't think it's clear I think it's an FAQ. It's that simple. Yeah Yeah, I Like guys guys this ultimately shouldn't matter Like we all know for the help of the game what the answer has to be What that night hot that hold on that negash needs to be on a two up Oh I think that's the right answer here, right For the hell of the game. He should he's the great salvation of of nipon. He's half of your army Thank you, Tyler for bringing us back to reality The like I understand the argument both sides You totally get it There is no logic you are going to be able to use here To say this is definitely the way it is no need to FAQ it. I've got the answer No, that's not how this works. Well, both sides have perfectly logical arguments And I agree that raw right now leans toward tom's interpretation But I can also see that they clearly wrote in here pretty strongly He doesn't get to benefit from allegiance abilities and had an intention with that So let's just get the FAQ right and then we'll we're good Yeah, I mean the reality is that like We are talking about a negash who would be on like a two up or a one up With with the various bonuses On defense mystic shield and the whole deal. Yeah, and then also on a two up ward Functionally from the bodyguard where he's just where he's just automatically just dropping hex rates back in his bodyguard unit every turn Well, yeah, he can return like well, you could run like two hex rates units around him I understand right and alternate units as to who's eating the wounds Yep, and then he just refills the whole unit back and then he just re-fills all the units He's gonna restore two to three hex rates per turn to those. Yes easy Like automatically he does without lady. Oh triggering her command ability right correct Which now she returns two two hexes per unit Yeah, so automatically on one command point between the two of them You can put four hexes back in a unit So if you don't kill out the unit of five, they will refill that unit every hero face, right? Yep And like that's not healthy For the game Right, we all get that well if this doesn't get corrected. I may be taking this to an event in a month Wow Think you'll do just fine without it With new negation and and ultimately like Tyler. I agree. It's still really good if those hexes are just bodyguarding olander Sure, right like like let's let's be perfectly honest here. The other reality is is that negash Gains some vulnerability to mortal wounds Well, actually no, he doesn't he gains some vulnerability to rend Yeah, because immortal wounds. He's still on the floor on board, right? Yeah, the the losing the death let's say that's it goes back to the amulet of destiny Discussion that we had he's got the four up. He's got what he needs. He's got it next skills He's good to go. He did that right. Yeah, so When I look at negash and another of these I just like okay, that's why we have shooting in this game I mean this guy is going to be a nightmare for a lot of melee armies with with what he can do I mean a lot of he's going to lock people down And then he's going to hit them with the no retreat spell and he's going to be like suck it You're here for the rest of the game Yeah, he's going to blast them with yeah like yeah fulminators Sure, have you know like probably he'll be fine going to blast them with you know How many mortal wounds did you just do to me at the start of the combat phase? Awesome. I enjoyed that. Yeah I mean, I thought the community we were way down on the gash events I said this early on for whatever the hell that's worth. We were underestimating him We were talking about the gash is too high and you know, sure he hasn't been blowing up the scene But in the hands of talented players My god, he's been amazing All right, so let's keep going through the armies because I agree in knight haunt Big winner the ghosty boys are here Yeah, right just in time for christmas Yeah, they're here to do negosh is shepherding his ghosts and to come visit you and teach you lessons about How you should have respected them more Yeah Okay And yes negosh has always had the monster keyword Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yes. He's yes. He's huge. Okay. Let's talk about him in fleshy your courts Anything he's doing here Let's see I need to look at the spell lord Well, yeah, I mean the the only magic would be in the spell lord itself because like none of the none of the other Incidental things is going to actually be interesting to him and holy vitality He couldn't make right. That's the five up Ward he couldn't make that a four up on a on a g-cott on a gulking on tear guys. Sure He could pretty good pretty good Yeah, I'm gonna give you my honest answer here. I don't think he does almost anything in that army I think he's just too expensive like the the key with the key with night haunt is that there's just enough bodies Like they don't have anything else. So that's he's not competing for actual key elements in the army, right? Here you already have big monsters that I guess theoretically are still okay right and like they like You still have terror guys that can double pile in and mortal wound bite and re-roll the hits on all those those bites Right like he's competing with those things in those spaces and I'm not sure that he wins that fight Because he doesn't need to double pile in he doesn't get to do the mortal wounds like that Maybe he has spectral hosts. He could so he's a nine inch move spectral hosts Casually 10 that's pretty reliable with him now. He can run in charge Or sorry Casually 10 allows you to do on three units They could do them on him can run in charge. You can run in charge at the three units But he would be a nine I'll run a six. That's 15 I'll say charge roll after that. That's not too bad It can you know pretty good threat range and combat I think there's a few things he could do like that factions in a pretty bad place So I'm not sure that it's not actually a good call to put him in there Is my honest answer like maybe he'll do better because he's he's not relying on all the broken non overlapping Like that all the non bows that are that are getting caught up So like yes, you could make a giant unit of ghouls with like a four upward save or whatever You know something like that. I mean deranged transformation would let him shoot across the battlefield. Sure um because Because you could add the wounds characteristic to the move and so he's going to add what No, there's a limitation on deranged transformation I'm I'm literally reading it Pick one from the unit with the wounds care. Oh up up to six never mind. Yeah, that's correct. No, he's just bad No, I mean like that's deranged transformation is for like um, you know, you put that on like your your knights basically yeah um Yeah, I mean I don't think he does enough in fleshiers simple answer It's it's not The reason why he's good at knight haunt because as you said he solves challenges that that army had Right, they didn't have hammers or big monster heroes or things that wanted to go tussle like that Yeah and And holy vitality is I was thinking it was part of the spell or it's not it's on the it's on the g cut itself Oh, yeah, you're right. It is it is that's that's the other trick That's what I was gonna say a lot of the good spells you want to cast are on the scrolls So the regular gulking the arch region the you're absolutely right. Yes, that is the spell How could I forget probably because I don't run I actually don't run Cumbquats in my army. So I don't didn't remember the off the top of my head Uh, but like a lot of the spells you want to cast are usually on the scroll itself And he's getting access to like they're completely average spell war Um, yeah, I mean you could run them in the one Sub faction. That's all ghouls, right Like all the bottom morgon or whatever it is morgon and just have him keep refilling all those masses of ghouls Maybe there might be something to that. I'd have to go look If if there is a play it's something like that okay all right Uh OBR bone daddies. Is this the big loser? yes Because he now doesn't play the rdp game anymore He basically doesn't play with the like the army has a set of unique rules And then he has a set of rules and these two don't really meet Like he can't do the plustering movement. He can't do he can't access any of their rdp abilities right, right and He's just not really playing their game. I mean, yeah, he can you know, he can do He can put models back in a unit or whatever, right? Um, like with it. He can do his three wound restore yeah, um I mean it raises a question Okay, and the question revolves completely around supreme lord of the undead yeah all right I'm gonna bring up the exact text because I need to get this right Yeah, goth is our harvester Yeah Roll a dice each time a model is slain within three inches of any models with this ability On a four plus you can pick one friendly oc arc bone reaper's unit within six inches of this model If you do so and the slain's model had a wounds characteristic of four or less You can heal one wound allocated to that unit if the slain model wounds got just blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, right? If there are no wounds allocated to the unit you can uh, you pick you can return a number of slain miles to that unit With a combined wounds characteristic that is equal to or less the number of wounds you could have healed Okay, so The question is um How is that working with the harvester one Is he letting you re-roll the four up? I don't think so because it's not re-rolling the number of slain models return to the unit Yeah, he's he's you're not you're not doing that to the wounds which is was the was the Which is what the what it's keyed off of right? but The way that this ability works right right um Is that like you were you've just popped little skeletons back on there, right? You're just putting back little bell daddies. So do I get to go like one? two One two every time I get the four up. Do I get two back? Yes, because I'm rolling it each time. Yes, which means that he breaks it Right. Does does he send us back into the dark days? Of when harvesters could double tap Right. Yes. And so now you move back into full on crematorium blowing up skeletons And just let let the grind begin sure where he's just like they kill it And then it like you just you just for every four you roll you get two skeletons back to you know two bone daddy boys back And and then so you're just almost always basically refilling your entire unit And you're just literally using something like crematoriums to just melt people's face with weird mortal wound mechanics Yeah, yeah, I mean like that's if there's a build with negash in obr now. That's what it is. Yes Uh, and yeah phalanx 167. Yes, he can activate his command ability with rdp. They specifically say that in the obr f aq It's the only thing he can do with rdp, but he can do that right I uh So I think that's um Interesting Like because if you don't have shooting to bring down the harvester Yeah I'm pretty sure that that unit becomes immortal Yes, it does Uh sammy. No, he does not get the six plus base ward because he doesn't get the allegiance abilities of the individual armies He has his armor save and his four up against mortals, but he doesn't get any army six plus He is not a deathless minion. He's the lord of death um Indeed and So that's the only angle I could figure out with obr. I think the traditional obr and agash build is dead Yeah So because it's you're not able to double up with like so you put the five up ward on a unit and more tech guard You're not able to then do an extra rend right from another source Because it's you know the ways that they oh that they manipulate their their thing Yeah, I'm talking about the neg one rend versus the what are you talking about? Well that like the hecatos is it the hecatos does a command ability To either do plus one save or plus one rend I'm forgetting what it was the thing that that either makes them more punchy or more durable I didn't know that's a lead ability to ignore rend Yeah, that was part of it. But I think that don't they have a way to get plus one to save I was thinking to obr units Uh through an rdp. Yeah, I don't know I've played that army in person. Yeah, the issue here is that he because he can use his command ability In that command ability only he loses all out attack. He loses all out defense He can't rally anything. He can't you know, like he becomes this weird island piece right That isn't really accessing the rules the army. That's the problem. The definitely the army he works the worst in now is obr right Yep Okay, phalanx adam. Yeah, thanks guys. I couldn't remember the details on that. You cannot yeah, okay Yeah, we will save through shield wall. You cannot all right, cool. Yep All right, I was hoping you could not that I wasn't sure Yeah, I think it's ironic because yes ski as the ultimate bone daddy himself He's now the worst in bone daddies, but I mean, you know obr is another one of those those books that just feels like Boy, do they need to redesign from the ground up, you know, like they're just not They they have like this weird Like Switzerland doesn't completely like unique plug. It's different than the base of the rest of the EU It's really annoying and that's what that's what they are, right? They're like the weird swiss wall socket to the standard of of Of the rest of the game and I mean the the real problem here Is that rdp just doesn't need to exist because that's how all command points actually work now, right? Like is that is that what we need to just acknowledge? probably is that Is that obr was the book of nine swords? for um for warhammer That was introducing mechanics of the next edition before that edition drop And now they should just have like they use command points and but then they have limits on what they can do with command points And so on and so forth like that's it. Yeah, and then everything's just normal. Okay. Last army. So bright. So blight grave lords How's he working? Hello zombie. Louis zombie horde Yeah, dude Yeah, all the zombies and so would this thing work on the skeletons allowing you to re-roll? You know how you want to? Yeah, let's talk about these Yeah, I yes, I understand. Switzerland is not in the EU I get that because they're neutral and stuff. I'm just saying like it's an it's a thing It should do they shouldn't need to be in the political body inside to standardize their wall plugs. But anyways okay um Let's read the ability again, and then we'll read deathrattle skeletons. Okay, so yeah You can't either Reroll the dice that determines the number of slain models returned Okay Here is the skeletal legion ability verbatim When you pick this unit to fight Roll a dice for each model in the unit that was slain in that phase On a four plus you can return that model to this unit Files, okay Yeah, so A couple of things are happening here, right? Yeah, is this An ability that determines the number of slain models Return to the unit. No No Well, let me let me let me put out the facetious argument for it. Tom. You ready? Yeah, it is because I'm returning one or zero every time I roll it Here let let me let me let me say that it absolutely doesn't matter I agree with you because where you're going to go next Go ahead. Just take the one the white and the gosh is supreme lord is worded You get to always choose which of those two effects you want correct It doesn't say Reroll this if it doesn't if it doesn't have a role then add one model, right? It just says either do this or this Right I agree with you. This I just wanted to walk through all of this to get to this point, Tom because Yeah, but I think that that it doesn't even matter right right it doesn't actually matter because Like I wanted to walk people through this math Okay, exactly why it doesn't work because getting what you will get one additional skeleton Right right And so is it so let's get to the next part here Tom every four plus gives me back a skeleton Does this plus one trigger to every four plus that returns a skeleton Okay, or does it trigger to the whole lot plus one No Because because you make an individual die roll for each for each triggering effect, which is a model died Like so so you're so you're you're checking for every single model You're not saying roll dice equal to how many models have been slain. That's not how it's worded If it was worded roll dice equal to x then for each four plus in that lot then you add one skeleton Well, I'll read it again Yeah, and you pick this unit to fight roll a dice for each model in this unit that was slain in that phase Yeah, it's but it's four plus you can return that model to this unit So it's triggering individually, but it's creating a dice pool collectively It doesn't work for that ability then Okay And the reason why it doesn't work reading it that way is because you return that model And you don't think you then get to add one more model to that no because each model is only one that model Yes, but I've restored a slain model right I fulfilled that requirement And so right but it's telling you what kind of model you can No, it's telling you what kind of model you can return. So for example, let's imagine a world where You're you're like you had an ability that returned a champion or a musician. Yeah, right You can't add another model. That's not that type of model sure and that ability is specifically delimiting What is added because it's that model? Yeah I tend to I actually agree with your final reading, but here's what we're gonna like ultimately this is going to get FAQ to just be plus one to the lot Like this is another one that's going to need an FAQ and what's going to get FAQ is no, you can't re-roll the four plus Or it doesn't work And and like at best it gives you one more guy Right, that's what's good or it doesn't work now zombies. Let's talk about zombies Okay Because zombies add to their number when they eat people is that right? Well, yeah, the the the reason that the that the re-roll doesn't work Is because it's not the role of a dice that determines the number of slain models, right? Right Uh, it's not meeting that criteria Right, I understand people stretching it to say it is But like and that would it's not that that wouldn't be interesting Skeletons might become a really good really really good carpet then because they will just sell every fill in every round, right? Yeah, you'd still have to have inspiring presence for them because you're still losing dudes, but sure Okay, so zombros That's who you're talking about here. Okay. Yeah the newly dead Uh In addition at the end of the combat phase you can roll a die for each enemy model that was slain by wounds inflicted by this unit's attacks In that phase for each two plus you can add one dead walker zombie model to this unit Okay, so this for each two plus you're going to add two dead walker zombie models Based on how that worked because it's not saying that model That's exactly right because you're you're rolling for each loss And each loss then is generating one model Right or no, I know No, you're right. This is no. This is a model. This is not a return right Right because the the specific ability of the gosh is it has to be a return, right returning a slain model Yes, you're adding google to the unit Yep, so no it doesn't work for that at all because you're adding people doing it. There we go. Yes, correct Which will by the way also be FAQ like it should just to clean these things up because people will not get this You're just adding to the unit. That's why it's not doing anything. Yes, right Correct. Yep Yep, yep. Yeah, I wanted to walk through both of those because I yeah, I had to walk through the logic of it But yes, that's yeah, you're adding you're not returning. Yep Like it's a complicated interaction Right, right. Both of these are um And so I thought it was worth really stepping through all of the logic even though I knew where we were going to end up but like You know, it's it's still yeah, I haven't processed all of these other armies. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's fine This is what I wanted to do. I wanted to do this in real time. So we walked through all the different Elements. Yep. Yeah, I agree with you on both. I think for for Skeletons, it would just be FAQ to say you get one more Okay, regardless of how it's worded. That's what they'll say I think for zombies, they'll say it doesn't do anything because you're not returning you're adding to the unit So it's not returning a slain model And there you go. I mean he can still he can he can do his invocation of the gosh, obviously right See Debbie says oh boy more things I'll need to walk my soul blight opponents through yes indeed I mean the answer is you just don't take the gosh Yeah, I don't I think again this I don't know how much purpose he has in soul blight There's a lot of already like real chat heroes in soul blight um That probably don't care like that that that you could get like two of any of them for one of them Do you have any spell lures that are bombastic and soul soul blight? Uh, I mean he'd be he'd be taking the necromancer spell or which is a good spell Yeah, the vampire spell or is complete garbage the necromancer spell or is quite quite good He would get a a really good spell Yeah And and be a great delivery mechanism for them by the way Because a lot of them are quite good debuffs But they're very short range And you don't generally want to have necromancers often in range to be able to do them But negash is obviously much less scared of being close to the enemy All right, and yeah, the lore of the death mages is real good Okay, have we beat negash to death? Is he and the dead horse he rode in on now dead negash I've hated him since 1997 or so Something when my one of my first opponents Tried to claim that he could take negash in the old whatever fourth or fifth edition book And put him on a skeletal horse and because he was ethereal he could hide him in a hill I'm like, none of that is correct All right, let's keep moving archaon Big boy archaon All right These have been in order of decreasing excitement by the way Yes. Well, no, that's not true. Like kragnos was like Oh, no, i'm dem, kragnos is definitely more exciting overall than negash You just are very biased mr. knight hawn player I'm pretty sure if I slotted an obr player into your position they would feel quite the opposite But i'm just saying that like for archaon like he had a lot of functionality and now like it feels like they've just taken all that way Okay so Archaon, what's his big change his big change is now he doesn't benefit from allegiance abilities Like that's it. That's the big change. That's the story. Um, we're destiny. Um, we're destiny dies to autoslayer of kings a hero Yep, he did lose the heat knight keyword as well. By the way, he actually used to have the heat knight keyword So he could benefit from the slanesh Well, he can get place of darkness allegiance abilities. Yeah, sure. No, no, that's that's right. I'm talking about in the god armies Yeah, right um He is he can no longer benefit from their Allegiance abilities. That's it. Yeah It was a weird exception before that he could do it in slanesh like because Because he started like he could take everybody else's but he sort of somehow snuck into slanesh by having the heat knight keyword Yep Yes, I agree. His assistant ref said archaion gave up on his hedonism. He's embracing clean living and moderation boring Uh, yeah, if you're slaves to darkness, this is you know, he's still good The only other notable change is that the armor of morcar now, uh, you have to he reflects his mortals to a unit within Uh, three inches So like if you shoot at him, he used to be able to bounce the mortal way back to you Right from just a mile away He can't do that anymore if you shoot at him He can still reflect the shooting mortals, but he reflects them on to somebody within three inches. So somebody has to be there Okay, uh, he also lost his um See the future thing the turn priority nonsense um Okay, he lost that a while ago didn't he? No Oh But that's still isn't that a slave to the darkness thing a host of the ever chosen Is that a host of the ever chosen? Maybe it's in host. Yeah, I never play host of the ever chosen So I don't remember the last time I read those rules a while back Yeah, somebody can crack this otherwise, but I think that's right. Either way, um, yeah So oh at his by my will can now go on any cast thing. So it's a he can command them But they don't get to basically he doesn't again with all these dudes They try they're trying to like you can see completely narratively what they're trying to do, right? They're elevating them above any of the individual armies Yes. Yeah. Oh, there you go. Okay. Thank you dark prophecy is s2d. Okay. Excellent. Thank you john great, um So he can now make any cast people uh Fight on death cool He can command them but they can't benefit with the first thought Yeah You guys think of anything else that would be interesting scar brand was obviously the one that came I mean, that's an expensive army and two models right there So I don't know how how much you're gonna get out of that, but I mean he's a super modular piece as it is The I think the thing we can all celebrate is that you could no longer destiny dice the sword Yeah, right, right Because that was dumb So Yay That got fixed Good You know, I think if you're taking him in one of the god marked armies now, you're doing it because You want to play with arc young? Yeah That's it and he's a big modular piece and you think He'll fill the role of a basic utility hammer and do something interesting Like yeah, fight on death with with scar brand is a funny combination I you know, I hope that isn't Functional very much longer Not because they ever ban it but because they redo the corn book and um And scar brand actually gets so awesome that he's worth like 500 points is where he he should be at the top end of the greater d As I've said greater demon should all be cost to between four and 500 points And he should be like 495 and worth that and so you just never did it Because it was too expensive to put both of them in an army. You understand saying like not I don't want to shut it off. I just I want to see scar brand be so amazing He's worth 490 points. That's what right certainly Uh, yeah, I mean, okay cool. I mean he's a big dude He's A lot of points. He did go up. We'll talk about points in a second. He went up a little I mean, it's probably the least interesting change, right? Because now he's just not going to show up in these other armies anymore In a competitive sense um, he's there narratively if you want to do it and That's it. Yeah, that's the shooting. Okay, so let's take Archeon and Nagash or we could take all three Oh Do you guys Which Or let's just run it out which god level character Is most reflective of the ideal In terms of where they stand and their attractiveness for competitive play You know Is it or maybe we just limit it to these three in our sense of what these three are going to look like going forward Sure, which of these three is the most attractive for competitive play? That's your question, right? Most yeah most attractive. No, no, no with which is the healthiest Okay for the ecosystem Okay, because I think a lot of people are going to feel like Archeon Has gotten toned way down from where we were, you know, like started 2020. Let's say or originally started 3.0. It was Yeah, he was good till into 2020 or till end of 2.0. He really got turned on 3.0 He was all over the place since Archeon a little bit of corn Archeon Now we're in a quite different world going forward. So, you know, yeah kind of what what do we think is Best reflective of the ideal from a health standpoint for the game with these god level characters It's a good question. Tom. Do you have do you have a take? Um I think that Archeon's probably the most balanced Hmm I think that you'll see Nagash the least Because Because like he's only going to be good in night haunt Hmm everything else. He's just not that stellar Like maybe a skew build of flesh eater boards, right? And then maybe a skew build of soul blight, but even then he has no good synergies there That's what we just demonstrated, right? And so ultimately there's just not a lot of Like You're just not going to see him Unless you bump up against the night haunt army And then I think he's going to be an every night haunt army moving forward competitively. Sure I uh, here's what I'll say Tyler. I think Archeon's probably the ideal I think we're actually over weighted on Cragnos right now. Like he his His utility is so strong. Like it's such a powerful ability. He's just pulsing out to everybody Yeah, I think Archeon works really well in his own force. I mean part of the problem is Cragnos doesn't have his own army He has nowhere to go Right. And so he has to he has to be lucrative enough in his abilities to appeal to all the The destruction, right? It's this weird place like Archeon is this standout because he actually has his own force Right like slaves to darkness are his army Nagash doesn't technically have an army Um, did he lose? You know both Nagash, I mean Cragnos really doesn't have an army You could argue like bone reapers were made in Nagash Nagash's image or aesthetic or something, right? But he's not actually part of any one of them. Do we have, um Yeah, I mean, I guess the problem is is that any of the armies that he used to gain the keywords for It doesn't matter because his Warsaw now trumps the fact that they eliminated all that text From that, yeah, thank you Yeah Yeah, so I mean, uh Archeon ideally I think is the right answer Because he is has a fully functioning role in his original force He's a nice splash that has benefit but doesn't dominate any of the other armies The reality is is that both Cragnos and Nagash are supplanting what's native in those other armies And warping the meta of those armies around him Yeah, to varying degrees, right? Cragnos, obviously it's much more widespread much more sweeping and his ability is just so good in john and in Uh ogres, I don't see yeah Like I see his presence in ogres like Nagash's presence in night haunt Like if you're going to run that army, you're going to run him Sure, just because three to six charging with your monster trucks is really strong turns out Well, yeah, like and all the mortal wounds, right all the little wounds he himself does a bunch of the charge He's now got mightiest makes rightiest So he's more objective capture in your in your monster truck of ob-sec army, right? So Yeah, he like he plays into that really really well Really really well. Yeah So, I mean, I think ogres are the right move for him. Yeah Okay, cool. Yeah, I mean, I think that's archaeon. I wish we had more discussion about the the grand marshal of the apocalypse, but you know He's fine. He is what he is it's fine So there you go uh, okay points Gentlemen, let's talk points All right, so here's our point sheet Here they are they're all here And we're not going to look at this for more than like three seconds Because what we're going to go to instead Is this point sheet right here? It shows the changes Uh, this is put together. I apologize. I do not remember if we put this together They shared it out on twitter. Let me find them real quick while we're talking. So while I'm looking Uh, I'm going to ask you tyler to start us off because we're not going to go Scroll by scroll here, but on this first page. Okay, so this is the first half City's dog fire slayers eidneth corridor and lumeneth seraphon fec night hawn obr soul blight gloom spite ogres oryx and sons of badmont What grabbed your attention? Yeah, so let's start with salamanders. I mean, it's nice to see that they went up a little bit I think they probably could use plus 30 they got plus 20 120 to 140 so Ed ridge on recently ridge took out Which event he took out josh's event? boys with his seraphon And he had three packs. He had a bestilladon that would be 60 basties went up 15 so 75 point increase And so yeah, that'll have a little bit of impact not a lot, but that's decent Jonathan straw by the way as we put this together. So thank you, Jonathan. Okay. Yes Yeah So, yeah You know They got a little bit of an uptick. I think seraphon players will fill it a little bit Arguably could have been a little bit more on the salamanders Yeah, we'll start with that one. Okay Tom uh Fire slayer changes were to a bunch of foot heroes and no one's ever played sure I think the volkite could have came down a little bit volkite berserkers That would have been a meaningful change You can't fix the army That army is unfixable now Because it is a army of almost holy 32 mil base models with one inch reach So like it's it's because of coherency the army's done I've seen it do pretty well. I mean, obviously, it's still a lot of people are not playing it, but Yeah, I don't I think it's still in the middle in the middle middle. Yeah, it it's me. Yeah, it feels like a Little army But it's still very capable of winning games What I'm saying is people have winning games because you compile a bunch of meat onto objectives But yeah, it's it's hard to shift. But at the end of the day, I mean The real challenge is it's it has all the limitations that it's always had Low mobility low bodies now These are the changes and it It's limited on reach and and and the amulet save moved the the mag father Back off the table of competitive like of of a good competitive option because he's not survivable Okay So, uh, so the fire changes were And in general, like that's what we see down this whole column, right? Like most of the changes are just They're they're not moving the needle on anything that's function Like let me say this a lot of these the points aren't the issue There are larger wider sweeping issues with these with these armies that the points just can't address Like I look at the ko list and i'm like Okay So like skywardens at 105 that's where they should be Points wise comparatively, but there's problems that those units have like fundamentally Because they are 32 mil Units that will reinforce from three to six models Like you can't build there's not enough reinforcement points to actually like make real units there Let alone the fact that you can't even get above 10 anymore Which is where you need to be to uh to actually get aether gold in the army and so like There's just functionally like it's a misunderstanding of how that army's supposed to play um And then things like the ender master with ender harder. So the foot ender master 95 makes him interesting For a mealy boat and that's the only function you'll ever see him in Is with a bunch of other melee heroes in a boat. So I mean And then the the ender master derivable suit went down. Okay. Well, I mean that's a that's a model that I use That's the only one on that entire list that actually gets used And I think that that is the story of this This change is that a couple there's I could probably pick this the seven units here Where the point increases were meaningful and then almost all of the decreases were just nonsensical Or they're not nonsensical. They are they are unimpactable Yeah, okay. I think you're I think you hit on exactly where I want to go, Tom Let me bring this up a level. Let's let's get this into the meta level. Okay. Yeah, which is this points First of all, we should have never moved to five point increments. That's comical I'm just gonna I'm not that's right. I'm not gonna let that die This stupidest thing one two Points are the worst way possible to fix something Okay, because many many many many many many things Will never get played because they fundamentally have either a bad scroll or have no role And that's it Yeah, there is no points you can reasonably put them at Where they will be selected Like sure you move all these units down to 20 points or something. Yeah, sure People will spam the crap out of them, but you can't do that. That's obviously nonsense, right? There's no reasonable points value where you can paper over You got a giant pothole in the middle of the street. There's a sinkhole in the middle of the street I can't go out there points are just wallpaper. I can't go out there and literally just roll some wallpaper over the street and expect cars to drive over it Okay, they're gonna fall in the hole It's not enough strength to support what you need to actually do That's point like that avatar of kane Sure. Oh disagree with you there, buddy But sure I I yeah, you could pick any pick the cygore wherever you want to completely If you want a completely unambiguous example, all right, right three Points need to stop like this way we look at the change Is mathematically correct And functionally wrong okay because What I mean by that is 10 points On a hero. I'm going to take one of Literally means nothing Nothing just Literally nothing Right, it only changes what lists are possible. It doesn't actually change only around the very edges once in a while Right, you guys have quibbled a little about this over the years. I mean I'm a list building standpoint. I'm probably more in tom's camp on this fence. Yeah, here's my argument Like every every 10 points matters to me in the list Every point matters. Okay. Here's my argument tyler. I'll challenge 80 of the warhammer players in the world Yeah to a 2000 point match. I'll bring 1850 I'll win bold statement That's quite a statement because it's the truth. All right. Like don't pick me pick somebody who thinks even better Do you do you think bill susan could beat you with 1800 points? Against your 2000 point army. You're absolutely right. He could I'd give him a good game. Okay, and he could you could you could randomize his army I am Because the points don't actually matter That much it's not that accurate of a guide Often the last 100 points of your list are irrelevant Hence hence like where in my 1500 point list, I had 75 points floating for my luminous list. Okay And yeah the but again the problem is is that Regardless of what you think about my third points if you think all 2000 points super matter every time Sure, there's not people out there winning tournaments with 1940 point lists angling for triumphs. That doesn't happen You're 1940 point giant list that you you just pointed out will never go 50. Okay Like obviously the points are an indelicate measure of a general representation of raw power Obviously Okay My point is that it yeah, we're kind of I think talking about different strata here like the more the more basic point is that Points on the margin can matter sure once in a while and you move something 10 points It'll turn a 2005 point list like somebody said they went and calc and currently crag nose plus the frost lord on stone horn Plus three monster trucks is 2005 points apparently Right. Yeah, it's okay. Right. Cool. One of those guys like the frost lord of stone horn drops five points Maybe that's a meaningful thing Simply because it accidentally allowed a list in I'm not going to say it's you know Every time irrelevant sure on the margins once in a while it can like take a list That was invalid into valid territory. Fine. Yes. Okay. Yes Like let me just say that this like the changes to night haunt Uh made one of my lists valid Sure Like that I've been looking at for a while and I'm like I just need five more points In this change here because the black coach did it for you. Yes, or and right more right more and black coach So it gave me 40 points. Yeah, um, which is like that. I mean that's a meaningful swing Now Nagash is there so that whole list is off the table because I'm gonna take the gosh, but Yeah, let me return to my point too though because I really want to drill this in The difference between this being mathematically correct and functionally wrong What I mean there is if sentinels go to 170 Okay How many points did the sentinel list actually go up? I think jack said his Yeah 100 points. Yeah, it takes five units of them, right? So like again, we need to think about this in different ways Singleton heroes or singleton monsters or something like that moving 10 points is largely irrelevant Because it's 10 points and 2000 points A base unit moving 20 points that you're going to replicate five times is 100 points. It's not 20 points Yeah, right, right, right It could be a big deal again, like if you took Uh I don't like you mentioned bull kites and that not happening. I mean whatever whatever with bull kites, right? but my point is like if bull kites are or Hearthguard berserkers or something like that that especially in an army like that you're going to tend to take a lot of Maybe you don't take bull kites anymore, but you get what it let's assume bull kites scroll was actually worth anything, right? That that going down or up 10 points can actually math out to be quite a bit of movement in the list Because you do get to a point here Like if you move a list 100 points in one direction or another Despite my previous argument like that does you're adding you move the needle, right? right And so how many so how many units? Are actually on this sheet that are going to be taken in multiple multiples Uh, most of the things that like a lot of the things that went up okay Iron grade multiple bloodsockers. Yes sentinels sentinels right sentinels salamanders Technically, maybe skywardens. Sure. I'll give you that black knights No black knights That was for comedy But but can we talk about grip ghouls? Sure grip ghouls going down to 85 when we were talking about the the morgan like the horde mass body push. Yeah. Yeah Well, we'll get to the second page, which I think you'll actually we'll see an impactful example of this, right? Yeah um So my point is I think when we when we do this we need to couch out like What does the average army actually contain? What did this actually mean to the list? You know, right? You were never taking more than one avalanor the stone heart king So it's not that I don't appreciate the 20 points or whatever, right? Sure But but avalanor at 415 didn't suddenly like if he was unplayable He didn't suddenly become playable at 395. Let's not kid ourselves. Right. Right. No You need at least a 10 swing in points in order for something to to meet a meaning culture Right, which is the fourth part of this which is like there's a there's a percentage representation here right Which is how much did it move meaningfully against its base cost? and What this ultimately should filter through in everybody's mind Is that points are the worst way for all the problems we've just mentioned Points are the worst most indelicate. This is trying to nail a nail into your drywall with a sledge hammer Yeah, right like sure you might get that nail in there right You might also just bust your drywall too It's just an indelicate tool the right tool is the worst role changes Because ultimately there's so many problems where they don't have Where the thing does not fundamentally it's either a bad scroll or no role Yeah, that's it. Yeah, like what percentage of these points here are Standing in front of bad war scrolls. Are we talking about a high percentage a lot A lot battlemage on griffin brad scroll red scroll dreadlord on black dragon bad scroll sork on black dragon bad scroll We can argue about whether the avatar of kain is certainly Basically the rune sun and the doom seeker at least i'll give you those two brock We're probably regular alerith Light of a tharion like by the way bad scroll or no role. I'm gonna count either of these right sure right Light of a tharion. Let's let's up on that one. This model has a ward of five plus playable Yeah, that's it because I feel I still feel to 20 is a little it's gonna be too high for most limit players Sure, but when it has a it's still it's just that's yes because we cracked the code on these heroes when we made them for stormcast and they're like Six to eight wounds Sig vault stormcast i'll do this correctly. They're like six to eight wounds around 300 points with a good armor save and a floral cord Done that's the model Yep Now that's jack him up 80 points and give him a four up ward or something and then then you might see him To be fair light of all tharion can get a five up from lumen as spells sure But you can't rely on a spell for that like it has to be on their scroll Especially for something that's like Seeming to be I want to be an independent operator, right? Yes Not you know, maybe he has still has a problem of like having no actual role because he's not hammery enough to hammer or whatever Blah blah blah blah blah, okay Whatever all right um I like gorg run to so let me talk about now the individual things that I think we're not that aren't right None of the shooting units here that shoot mortal wounds went up enough Yeah, I mean 20 points that will increase is enough Yeah, ryan real quick. I know ryan's leaving. I didn't say that's a standard for heroes I said that's a standard for those like super elite heroes If you're trying to make an elite singleton named ba dude like bastion carthalus or your andrasta or sigbold, that's the level That's what i'm saying not all heroes. No god. No, yeah, you look you load them up with abilities You give them a four uh, you know, you know, you get around points and they have a ward and they're survivable Yep a clear role. They have a ward in the survival. Yeah, right. Yeah uh, okay None of the shoot like Iron drake's probably fine. I would have put him at like 175. I think is what we said originally but fine I don't think they're like the big awful thing in the meta because they're not they're not doing mortal wounds But bloodstalkers should still be up higher if we're not going to kill the if we're not going to kill the hero face shooting Which is what we should do Yeah Well morathi will get an updated war scroll at some point and when she does she'll lose her command ability Then this is then i'm fine with this point's value, right? That's what needs to happen like right hero face shootings go hard uh and and like But until then you gotta figure in the points for these guys Like bloodstalkers still too cheap salamander hunting packs still too cheap sentinels still too cheap Sorry to say. Oh, yeah Part of the problem with the sentinels though is that they didn't actually fix the line of sight Like the other issues that the sentinels have completely agreed I'm assuming if we're not going to do the change we should do Which is fix the war scrolls and fix the the associated abilities. They're making these things broken, right? That's what we should do Accepted point right Okay So if that's the case If we're not going to do that we've just shown time and time again We're resistant to that then you better jack the points on this stuff way up That's your only other tool That's the like you said i'm not allowed to use a screwdriver I'm not allowed to use anything else. You left me a hammer in the toolbox with it I'm going to hammer in the morning and hammer in the evening Can we just take a moment to appreciate the fact that the dank hold troll Dog boss is down to 240 and he started at like 300 sure Yes, I know sentinels don't hero face shoots sentinels have a whole mix of other problems If they're not going to fix their line of sight shooting 30 inch loft lambit light nonsense Like you can pick the thing each of these have Some associated thing that makes them a nightmare That's that's the the thing I walked through earlier, right? More to wound shooting is bad more to wound shooting at long ranges worse more to wound shooting at double tapping or Without line of sight or or or with re-roll hits or whatever is poison right all those units cross over into poison in some way right, right They should just be up higher Like if we're going to have them with this level of functionality then they need to be expensive as Yeah, that's it Yeah, makes sense So you wanted to talk about piggies. Yeah, piggies didn't go up enough Uh, the right answer again was to roll back this time. You wouldn't have changed the scroll. Just delete Strike through your previous FAQ reset the rend on the jagged Uh Gorak Down to neg one where it should be so we have three distinct roles and three distinct units that to do those three distinct roles In the army and then basically you could move them up slightly. Maybe this is the right points cost Maybe you could even put them at 160 or something But we yeah, we discussed I think you have to have at least a 20 point separation between brutes and these Okay, right now it's very hard to pick brutes over these guys Yeah, brutes are still stuck at 160. Yeah, so Like it's not a hard choice for the most part Yeah No, I'd say it's a point well taken. Yeah, looking at this list, you know in terms of the the rubric you mentioned a little bit ago Yeah, there's a lot of junk here and it's not going to be impacted by point changes I want to take a minute to answer a couple quick questions Adam said if you had to make a new shooting centric army, how would you balance it? Uh, I would make it so they want to get into combat to be effective and have them actually be able to survive in that place Like have them be short range shooting and have lots of advantages when they're shooting up close And give them the durability to actually play in that a little bit in some way Uh Tyler s how would you fix non elite heroes like a loon boss? I don't know that they need a huge amount of fixing if you mean like the loon boss on mangler squig I think it's fine. I think the underlying problems of an all squig army or that it's An all squig army with a low save Um And your troops are basically garbage I mean, no offense squigs are cool. I love them. They're some of the most adorable models ever But you know, there's fundamental challenges there and then assistant ref which I absolutely agree with Said most disappointing thing about the balance scroll is that heart render didn't change its redden value I agree. Nor did the silver nests trees change again. I feel like they really missed a trick there all right Uh, yeah, that's sort of my thing there, but I mean, you know, um The kripgels like things that I thought were actually interesting Were like the kripgels going down 10. I agree with you. Tom is actually could could be an interesting thing in that army um I mean glutton's going down 10 is insulting. I again, their issue is fundamental coherency That's all you need to do to change to make them like pseudo interesting Yeah, but whatever um I thought right nor dropping to 145 was interesting because I Yeah, I thought I felt like he was a deal at 165. Yeah, totally right north drop is it's actually pretty surprising That's that's odd. Yeah They just need to fix his attack number. He needs to have like eight attacks or something Um, he's just he's not doing enough work. Sure. Yeah so Okay, yeah, just it felt like a pretty incoherent process in terms of this points update Like when I look at this 10s and neg 5s on most of this is just completely doing nothing Yeah I mean Garda steel soul going I mean that was the oddest one Yeah, let's jump to that page. So let's look at page two. Here we go Like I mean the boc stuff is exactly what I'm talking about, right? Like oh you move the dragon ogre shag off down 30 points Cool, like okay now if you're right, you know beasts are saved now Like those are big moves on bulgur is going down 25 points dragon ogre is going down 25 points And like I'm sure there's somebody right now who's thinking about Uh, you know like a dragon ogre spam army Okay, right Uh, I think domus was literally building that at one. Yeah, sure, but I mean like the It's just like again the fundamentals are bad there Right, so you can't even with big points moves like that. It's not going to do anything So right like bulgur still have all the same fundamental issues at 130. They had at 155 130 is certainly a more reasonable number for them, but it's not like suddenly they're going to be different Yeah My favorite change on this page was the move of chaos chariots from one of five Fine, I like chaos chariots. I think they're pretty good I enjoy them. So I just read that and I'm like, so tell me the logic here. Sure. What was that five points to do it? Yeah, uh, there he is like domus is in the chat. He said it's built and painted that army's ready to go What's up domus? How you doing brother? nice Uh, some of some of these feel quite clear like I love the castle so lord coming up 20 more than 35 You know, it definitely feels like he should be one not enough but good right direction. Yeah, it's it's a yeah. Yeah I don't know. I just I do find it interesting that I mean some of these It'll quite clear to me what they should be and then many of them don't And so like it I mean it does maybe it is harder than it seems But it does get into just and again your worst goal in your role points Like I that's probably often what it is like with the chaos or sort of like I look at the thing And be like 115 is absurd for what that thing's doing Relative to the baseline sort of the ecosystem and so and to kind of quickly get a sense of like 135 145 feels about right for what it for what it is but yeah So here's what I'll say let's take the cast sorcerer. He's a good example Yeah I'm going to wave a magic wand. You ready tyler The cast sorcerer lords now 175 points Yeah Okay, does he still show up in a lot of armies? Probably does Yeah Yeah, because that re-roll saves is a really big deal because auto re-roll saves Plus one save now, but yeah auto plus one save. Sorry. Thank you and auto or and demonic power is spelled Right, right are both super good And and do something Okay Uh Yes, dear it is But that's fine I like where these uh these zangor numbers are going. Yeah, like the interesting changes to me here are First of all, I love corgis coal going down 15. That's hilarious to me that like I love corgis coal I want him to I love his his silly ability to pile in eight inches is like one of the coolest things in the world So just make that do cheap enough that people just sort of accidentally splash him in armies for fun All right, I mean we talked about corn being in a rough place Again with doing what happened to corn. It's not like some points changes of this minimal amount like scolariper is going down 10 Radmars going down 10. It's not that's not moving the needle folks Um zangor is going down 20 and the shaman going down 25 is actually interesting I suppose I don't know if it's enough um But it's interesting. Uh, it could be it's not but uh But they have my attention. Sure You know again zangor's problem is they do need a new scroll. It's not nonsense Um to compensate for their sort of base size challenges, but they're They could be fun. Um The slanesh changes are just comical at best um What you don't like blitzbarb at 170 blitzbarb. We that's coming in a second. Don't worry, tom. I know Um, I mean obviously the blitzbarb thing is stupid the only thing like slangor fiend bloods get out of here Naked 20 they could be they could have said neg 100. I wouldn't take them. Um This the only one in that whole list from slanesh. It's interesting to me is simranesh twin souls Which I do think could have a valid role in the slanesh army being like a relatively fast interesting unit. That's multi damage Um, and they were obviously overcosted like 165 is getting down to a point where you you could see them Like is there optional battle line? They actually have multi damage. They actually still have a reroll to hits built into their war's role in the current roles So given they can only use it either on turn two and four or turns one three and five Depending on a completely forced and stupid mechanic, but it's there you know I mean But plague claw plague claw and plague priest on furnace doesn't matter You're never gonna have more than one plague priest on a furnace and 10 points is irrelevant to escaven list But night runners going down 10 to 75 We are getting into ridiculous territory now Like where you're getting down to spamming ridiculous night runners Like this is in dangerously low point territory Where people like smorgans are like Yes Yes Where you're just there that's 75 or 10, right? Yeah 75 or 10. Yeah So you're telling me That I can have 100 of them you 200 of them for 1500 points, correct It's but they all get a pregame move by the way So you can just flood They all have a range of that flood the zone Yes So anyways, that's funny Uh Things in the storm cast I was happy to see a ventus go down I think a ventus was strong I think he was slightly overcosted at 310. That feels good. I cannot believe gardus went down That is shocking to me. Gardus was such a steal at 160 Yeah, putting him at 100 feel like him going down is insane. It's insane Only that Again, that's me like when I saw that it's like What That's like the leading indicator. I don't know I'm going on about this It just that was the leading indicator of like a lack of coherency around this page Like what like if we're starting to drop in gardus, we just seem to are truly throwing darts Anyway, I know they get that uh, they hear that a lot, but anyway, yeah gardus chad soul. I agree. He's uh, he's a beast He's a beast. I Don't tell anyone but I'd pay 200 for him So like him being 150 Yeah, it's great I'm a buyer Yeah Let's test games with him and what he does. I mean, he does what you would expect. You have just a five up order in your entire army Yeah, that's that's amazing turns out Yeah, I'm just as cool. Uh, I'm a little surprised he went down, but yeah, he's he's quite awesome Uh, the So enough we got a little bit of the drop didn't get the current off I've been a little bit on the current off, but again, I think so with our example where it's going to make a difference writing lists with some other players over the last 24 hours It's actually opening up more space for interesting lists, you know, if you're running some of these big trees I think it here's what I'll say I don't buy it I don't buy it Fair enough Like sure Maybe it opens up a list that was slightly over before sure Like your engine dirty and stuff like that Like it has no fundamental impact on the army. Sylvaneth can put on the table and their fundamental competitiveness If you got half a percentage point of win rate out of this I'd be shocked Yeah I yeah, it's not much, but I I would I'd happily bet a half a percent sure like Okay, you know like is that that's that's not what they need right now is being the point, right? Yeah, they're yeah a little they probably could use a little bit more help I don't know. They're they're a fascinating army I just started picking them up again and getting some test games in with yeah And kind of getting filled for how they are actually trying out the mortal wind bomb the mortal wind um I mean they they feel like an army that yeah in the hands of experienced players can punch You can punch well above your weight class But I mean that gets back to other variables like, you know A lot of players are capable of taking about anything and doing you know getting quite a good quite a bit of gas Out of the tank with those armies. So like yeah, math mallow was tearing up the scene Of with with Sylvaneth this year and but most players were not doing that well Sure. Oh, anyway, like I I get all that but the chaos warshrine stands out as the one that I really like like they They got it. I think exactly correct like plus 30 points is exactly what really good That's correct You got it That's how much that thing should be right, yeah Okay, there is a war scroll that's missing from this Well, there's probably a couple, but yeah, like let's um Archeon went up 30 fine. Who cares go trek up 50. Yes, correct Again, I actually quite like that. He was he was particularly too stupid you will suddenly not see him in any list He wasn't super competitive before That's not the issue Yeah, he was simply too cheap for what he accomplished being in When a lot of people talk about this they talk about it like oh if it's not showing up in competitive list It's not a problem wrong wrong wrong wrong You're wrong that is an incorrect measure Okay, like that can be a bellwether Sure, but that is not the measure of this Go trek was simply too good for what he did at his points And was horrible for casual players This is closer to his correct point value That is all That is the point Being part of a 50 list Or not does not suddenly is not that is not the gait mechanism for whether or not you deserve points adjustments. It's ridiculous It's ridiculous Yeah, I mean, that's a that's part of that we thought that's part of the challenge with a lot of these conversations Yeah, is that we're we're just operating a different magisteria. We're operating in different realms often with these discussions right And and and you know, and if you felt like I'm sure at times in our in the show We haven't always been consistent and trying to you know making clear what are our initial sort of assumptions and values You know, like where are we starting? Oh, Tyler? Don't worry. I've been a hundred percent consistent every moment of every day I'm sure you have consistency in 10 cities over here Can we talk about the 15 point adjustment to Nagash? Is your goal to slowly get farther from your mic, Tom? Is that what it is? I'm just falling asleep and so I'm sliding back Like can we talk about the 15 point adjustment to Nagash? Like what is the approximate two 1.75 percent change 10 points accomplishing? Yes, nothing nothing It'd be like if you walked into your basement and it was flooded Okay And you grabbed a single bucket from your garage and just went in and we're like schwoop And we're like you got it big done That's what you just did So okay. Yeah, I can't believe Kairos isn't on this list That's number one He's my he's he's who I absolutely expected to see and did not see I'm surprised long strikes weren't on this list I'm surprised fulminators weren't on this list Yeah, you know, I there are fulminators Well for an internal balance standpoint, obviously they should have been like some or concussers desilators Yeah, sure, or the other one's going down or something whatever you go down. Yeah I think like I would be more comfortable saying that fulminators as time passes Will be more reflective of evicators and sequiturs than long strikes Meaning that long strikes probably didn't need to tick up but not necessarily fulminators. I know is a weird thing to say Uh, but anyway, we could get into the details of why I think that's the case, but I'm surprised they weren't here regardless of the truth of that So, yeah, I mean overall to me the points were the the disappointing part of this Uh, there was a couple good ones in here. I think that directionally Stuff like sentinels and and all those things went the right direction. They just didn't go far enough. Sure Right, and I think a lot of the points down often don't matter. I think 25 of the points down here at most at most I'll be generous matter Sure, I would agree with that Yeah, there's Most of these are just deck chairs on the titanic sure corn, uh, we talked on the wishlist show corn demon prints with what's the grounds Again at least from a an internal balance standpoint, you've got to increase the points on that thing Yeah, it's saying that he's the same cost as like the slanesh one. That's comical Yeah Okay, cool beans Uh, and then yes 170 point units. Let's look at our comparison here Gore grunches 170 sentinels 170 bliss bar barters 170 completely logical These are all definitely 170 point units And you know, I generally chafe against enter army comparison Because it's not really fair and I've talked about all the reasons why it's not fair to compare points across armies in the past You know an all melee army who has no shooting or no magic or whatever Should get you good melee units cheaper than an army that you should have had iron crates I'd rather than say somebody else made this meme. I totally stole this from twitter Got it, but I loved it so much so very very much So whoever you were that made this meme you're my hero Um, yeah could have been iron drakes too sure because they're also 170 like it's yes Well, and they're shooting like we're talking about shooting units, right? um but What are our final thoughts going forward? How do we want to see this? Let's let's talk the future okay Just to get it out get ripas Uh, pull one out for get ripas staying at one whatever the hell they are right now and not going down points Sure Like it's just a number of things like that that seemed There was a lot of that that seemed kind of obvious things that that should have been in here, but whatever What's the future should these be quarterly let's start with that question Yeah, I think so Okay, we got one vote. Yes, tom I just don't think I don't I don't think that I don't think that I'm gonna pull a g w Marketing line here. I don't think we have enough data for quarterly updates. Okay. All right because Like I don't think that we can actually Like I don't think that they can receive data Process it amongst testers and then test alternate things every three months Yep That's a challenge right because you got to consider there's a lot of work like they're not winging this Right. Hopefully like because ideally like you're talking about a three month turnaround where they implement the new points change Or ability change and then they have to begin measuring data from that point So it's not like they can roll out a change and then be start testing for the like in the future like they need to roll that out And then let's say that you're going to look at a month of events On the other side of those changes And then a month of testing Right. Yeah And then the internal processes to of a month turnaround to create these documents Yeah, you could you could have a lag time though tom where meaning that You could still more or less be operating on a six month time frame Within that regard so meaning okay. We had the balance data slate come out for 40k They're going to have this window. They've committed to quarterly changes, right 40k. They're on the books Okay, so we just had our first balance data slate So they're going to have three months here Is it likely that the next balance data slate is going to be reflective of just that three month window Or is it more likely that it's going to be kind of reflective of a longer time horizon meet me that I think they could The challenge you're going to have there though tyler and it's a very real one Is that like their their internal testing and their pool of testers is not large enough To like to get the stress test that you need to actually see the consequences of their data The consequences of the changes they need to get it out into the public so that we can get thousands of iterations in that month Hypothetic Now the problem is is that like if we're only evaluating events events are even a small portion of the actual stress That's going on and then how many people are actually giving feedback appropriately and yadda yadda yadda And so like I just I don't think that we can I don't think that in that month to two month window that we could actually like Reasonably expect to get the data that we need And then and then come up with solutions and push that to testers to test it before then hits the market again Like I just I think three months is way faster to turn around Like with development standpoint like You have to think about the processes that are going to lead to these changes and the processes themselves I just don't think you can get that done in three months I think part of my baseline sort of assumptions has been I would be curious to your guys views on to what degree you've seen what we just got as More reflective of incremental changes sort of within space of evolution versus, you know more Significant changes, let's say sort of where you think this falls on the spectrum. I think it tends to fall Firmly within the incremental evolutionary You know side of the spectrum And to what degree do I think that quarterly changes With that orientation would work I'm generally fairly comfortable with that but but I I'm taking your points And there and the other so there's some asterisks that go along with this one of which is I don't know like I have a clear sense of let's take suns Sometimes we're dominating early on, you know, and then we've seen this downward trend for various reasons So we have we have these natural quote-unquote adjustments that take place, right? New variables get entered people adjust blah blah blah, you know, how do we have a to what degree can we predict that? Having more time for that will Lead to better results versus having less time for that to take place will lead to more likely worse results Because you might overreact Do that short which I kind of feel as well a little bit what you're saying there, tom Is that you know, you might get a misleading it? I'll shut up But is that along the lines what you're saying you think Take suns like would you have expected that? Yeah, go ahead No, the answer is like with suns. I don't know what the solution is there that's short of a book rewrite Sure, and the question is what is this six plus that? What is the aim of destiny change to them? What is heroic recovery to them? You know, what are these various things do? I don't know what the answer is To collect that data properly you'd have to now operate in this new space Right, does it have a meaningful impact? Okay. Well, then we're not going to be able to collect that data And then make another change like yes, you could sort of like flip flop where you're not touching those things But ultimately then you've got to consider that there are also books coming out in there It's not a static environment We're going to have a new ghp that's going to completely alter theoretically the the state of play Right in the middle scenarios and the realm that we're in and yada yada yada potentially and so to me look I don't Like you could you could sort of Try to have different elements only being touched like here really touch this stuff here really touch this stuff And then do it quarterly maybe you could make that work Okay, but it's still going to be challenging because That's still a big load of work of people trying to operate to understand the space and it's not like those things are so easily separable There's often knock on consequences Sure game rules are a big tangled web So, you know, we can sort of say oh, we won't touch these things again Right touch different things next time, but let's not pretend like these things aren't intermingled In right pension, right It's not like like Having a five up save in combat didn't matter at all in 2019 Mm-hmm It didn't matter because everybody who Most of the people running around winning had like a five up save they would hit you and just explode you and kill you So the fact they had a low armor save didn't matter at all right and the The the reality is though. It's very important now now. It's the most important thing in the world Any unit with basically a five up save is almost dead in the water Almost to a man now mm You know assuming they're not some ultra powerful shooting unit Okay, because that the underlying stuff changes as well that nothing to do they never they never made a rule It was somehow changing that it was just everything else changed around them, right? right I mean the right answer here and I'll stand behind this Is Six month increments with better work on the initial books like put in the extra development work on the initial books That's the platonic ideal Right, that's where we'd want to live Yeah Where we'd want to live is higher quality on the initial product. So less need to change so often On the back end. Yeah on the back end And the six month updates are the incremental things we need right like that's Right, isn't that the right answer? Yeah, okay. So that's Yeah, that sounds right. Yeah. Yeah, and you know and and 3.0 books generally in my view We're on a positive trend For the most parts. I mean, you know like again at the we can quibble about a lot of different point values We didn't talk about you know the long laundry list of stormcast war scrolls They're not getting played right now because they're under they're overcasted But yeah, like you can you can make some adjustments to those things But yeah, generally these books are have been great so far in my view. Yeah I will say this if we were going to do quarterly. I'm not sure I'd really want points touched every quarter If we're going to do incremental Quarterly adjustments if this ends up being the path if we are if we do end up quarterly I'm not sure I'd really want points touched because I just think points is it's a bad Way to fix things for all the reasons we talked about it's not doing enough. It's not doing a lot of work Mmm, don't do it do it every six months do one in the winter and one in the ghp Or whatever ghp time frame And focus your quarterly incremental updates on on rules issues Yep Right, so if we if we can't live in the the platonic ideal if that's impossible Then where I want to live is in a world where I'm not we're not bouncing points around lists every three months Because that's just sounds awful Oh my list Because oftentimes you're planning for tournaments Three months in advance Right, right. I started planning for a night haunt back in september. Right. I mean You know even six months with with bouncing points around can be problematic But every three months like jeezal Pete's man You oftentimes most people I think kind of say yeah, I'm going to go to these tournaments about three months away What a terrible thing you've got like your 1990 point list the points changes come out Let's say three weeks beforehand enough that certainly the tournament's going to use them Sure And your list is now 2060 you know like Yeah, okay That's just man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I've appreciated the discussion on points I definitely feel like I've had my mind changed and so open to a more a better perspective on this Yeah, I like what you're selling On the points what I'd much rather see them do here if we're going to do these quarterly adjustments Is give those nudges To things either through new war scrolls like they did here with the three main people Or something like that Right or touch a couple core rules that are that are being problematic like if we if we got another one in three months and the fix The stuff that was there There was no more points adjustments in in I don't know into march or something. I don't know whatever like, you know, whatever it would be And it wasn't like points adjustments, but instead they fixed coherency Right And maybe addressed a couple other small issues like that in the core stuff Okay Cool good stuff. Flow that through to the app and I'm a happy camper Mm-hmm, right Great Yeah, makes sense I just I fear the bouncy world because if they start quarterly adjusting things too The other problem is you could get it like increment can build speed What if next time bulgur come down 10? And then after that they're still not good enough. Okay, now they come down another 10 now We're down to 110 points and then the book comes out So now you have so so finally maybe they hit a number where people feel like spamming them is fun People go out and buy a ton of bulgur And then the book comes out And they make bulgur actually hit like they should or be like as good as they should right and bulgur are suddenly 200 points What what have we been doing this year? Right, right When like that's not what beasts need What beasts need is an update to the herdstone. So it starts at a bigger radius or something like that, right? That's the kind of stuff they should be doing like put out a new herdstone stone war scroll. That's not garbage Yeah, definitely Yeah, I believe that 40k data slate they were not making point adjustments to a lot of different factions You know, they I think they had a more constrained set of factions. Yeah, it was on the two bad boys At back in jukari back in jukari. Yeah, but that so yeah They just overall the that balance data slate as you started from the top and you know, we went through like It would have been it feels like it would have been better to have these Here's a new rule for gets for, you know, these lower tier factions And point adjustments for or and or war scroll changes yada yada yada for the top tier to bring things more in line with the middle Yeah, that that generally feels like a better approach than sort of this shot What felt like a shotgun approach to these point adjustments that are largely not going to have much of an impact So, yeah yep You know, I mean the um I I worry about the flux syndrome of like things being in constant change and how people react and you will lose like People don't like that. There's a there's a good category of folks who if they feel like the game if the ground underneath them is really unsteady They will just get off the train Yeah, and I always fear that now at the same time You also can lose people if you don't make any tangible changes to the thing that they love Both sides are risks. That's why I You know, that's that's why I really do appreciate the work harder More development work higher quality initial project product six month cycle of incremental adjustments That's like should be what we're aiming at Yeah, yeah, that's reasonable man So, yeah, okay. There we go. Cool. Well gentlemen, we did it We fixed it. There it is Uh, my my final thought is good stuff, you know, like it's fine. They they this is a good first shot across the bow There are things in here. I like very much There are more things I could see to do I will be very and I'm not going to judge them too harshly on the first one Like your first one. There was some good stuff in here. They had some smart changes to some things I like what was done A lot of stuff. I think there's certainly a lot more that can be done and I am keen to Uh, see where this goes in the future So we'll we'll see we'll see how it plays out Tyler Tom Thank you guys. Good stuff tonight Yeah, totally. Merry Christmas everybody. Merry Christmas everyone. Happy holidays. I hope everybody has time Away from work or something gets to relax a little here or there spend time with your family with Kith and kin next to a warm fire drinking eggnog or something if you want to that disgusting Warm soup, uh, it's gross Um, or cold soup or I don't even know how you drink eggnog. It's disgusting either way. Okay, so, uh The I hope everybody has a wonderful time. I hope everybody has a wonderful holiday Or at least if you don't celebrate anything here, then a wonderful last couple weeks of december Uh, we'll be back next week, of course as always. Don't forget to hit like If you didn't Gursey said was this the winter FAQ or the balance update both they ended up rolling both of them together They did update some of the FAQs This was the shooting match. So happy holidays. Merry Christmas. Don't forget to hit like subscribe if you haven't already Click all those important buttons. But as always We'll see you next wednesday