 15th August 1947, we all think a very great thing happened. Before that for 90 years there was a fight for Swaraj, a battle for Swaraj. And if a lot of you would recall, in 90 years back Lokman Nair Telak in Pune had in ringing tones made a statement that has become part of our history. He said, Swaraj je mahaja janmasiddha haq kai, ani toh mi melavnaaraz. And we say, Swaraj came. A question I would like to pose before all of you is, are you happy with the state of governance in the country today? Can I get an answer? Anybody who thinks that he is happy with the state of governance? No. Okay. If you say you are unhappy with the state of governance in the country, Swaraj means my Raj. So are you saying you are unhappy with your own Raj? You don't like your own rule? Is I don't like my own rule? I don't want somebody else ruling over me. Where does my solution lie? By submission to you is Swaraj never really came. It is an illusion and a delusion. Swaraj did not come on 15th August 1947. What happened was, there was a transfer of Swaraj from one set of rulers, the whites to the browns. This is what truly happened on 15th August 1947 and that is why we are unhappy. If we had Swaraj, we would be a very different kind of state. But we say we are a democracy. We have elections, we have a constitution. So how is it that Swaraj is not there? In a democracy, it is a rule of the people, for the people, by the people. I would submit to you that we have missed an essence of Swaraj, the essence of democracy. What we have today is an elective democracy, a democracy where you have a constitution, you have elections. Elections and a constitution are necessary conditions for a democracy. But by themselves, they do not become complete set of conditions for a democracy or for Swaraj. The essence of democracy is that an individual, one individual is sovereign. This is the true essence of democracy which we have missed. You an individual are sovereign and you give a part of your sovereignty to the state in return for which you get the rule of law. That is the essence of democracy. You may wonder what is right to information. Right to information is the enforceable right of citizens to get information about government and governance. Sounds extremely simple. And it looks as if it has come newly to us. We have all heard of it in the last couple of years only. I heard of it first just three years back as a right proper. So it looks as if the government has given us a new right. The fact is, the right existed the day the constitution of India was framed. Right to information is a fundamental right of citizens. How come we did not know? 1975 in the Raj Narayan case, the Supreme Court ruled, we all aware that under article 19-1, freedom of expression is a very important right for all of us. We hold it very dear. The Supreme Court said, how can citizens express themselves meaningfully about government and governance if they are not informed? If you do not have information, how will you express yourself meaningfully? You can express yourself but it is not meaningful expression. Also, if the government is mine, the government belongs to me, every table, chair, tube light in the government belongs to us, to all of us. It does not mean we take them away but there obviously the information there is mine. I own it. In my own house, if I have a drawer and I have papers in it, can somebody refuse to allow me to see it? Question is no. It is my right to see them because it belongs to me. The money is ours. The account for the money should be with us. Just to give you a historic background, the first movement in India worldwide, in fact, the first freedom of information act was enacted in Sweden in 1766, 240 years back. And you will probably recognize that Sweden is one of those countries where human rights and democracy is at its peak compared to most of the countries. Last 67 years has become worldwide movement and in India for the last 15-20 years there has been talk of right to information. The first movement, actual movement for right to information took place in Rajasthan about 14 years back. Villages of Rajasthan undertook this movement, mind you. It was not city-bred people, it was not educated people, it was villagers who started this movement and then it kept on growing. Nine states had enacted the right to information act in the last 5-6 years and last year, 12th October 2005, the National Act for right to information has become an enforceable right. But I said it is part of a fundamental right. So what is new? What is this new law really doing? We had the right but it was difficult to enforce this right. The right to information act codifies this right and makes it possible for us to enforce this right. Freedom of the press is considered important for a democracy so that the citizen can be informed. That is the reason why freedom of the press is considered is very important. But then it stands to reason that if my right to be informed is the basis of freedom of the press, then my right to inform comes first, freedom of the press comes next. If we start understanding this fundamental concept that our right to be informed is more important than freedom of the press also and you need no locus standing, you do not need to explain why you want information. Similarly under right to information, it is your right to be informed and that is what it does. Who can get right to information? All citizens of India are eligible to get right to information. Companies, NGOs, firms cannot but every individual citizen has the right to get information. Where will I get information from and who has to give the information? The act defines what are called public authorities. Public authorities have been defined as all administrative units of government bodies. So each administrative unit is a public authority. Let us say a large police station is a public authority. The IITs are public authorities. All things owned by central government, including public sector undertakings, they are public authorities. Also the act says anything substantially controlled or financed by government is a public authority. Therefore, aided schools, colleges become public authorities. Nationalized banks, unit trust of India, LIC these are all public authorities. They have to appoint a public information officer. He is not somebody specifically appointed for this at this moment. He or she is somebody who is already doing some of the job and is given the job of also holding this and giving information to the citizens. Citizens will ask for information with some fees. By and large in most parts of the country the fees is 10 rupees application fee. So with 10 rupees you apply and ask for information from the public information officer of a particular public authority. How do I find out who the public information officer is? I don't need to find out. I just have to identify the public authority which is concerned with whatever matter I am talking about. So I apply to the public information officer, that particular authority or institution and ask for information with my 10 rupee fee. Within 30 days this public information officer has to give me the information. If he doesn't have it, nobody in an organization will have all the information. He or she would ask somebody else and whoever is asked becomes the deemed public information officer for the purpose of the act. In 30 days the information must be provided. You would all say we have known of all these laws. Nothing works in India, does it? This is a hocus pocus. One more promise which will not ever be rectified. Why it works is in 30 days if the information is not provided, then there is a provision for a penalty of 250 rupees per day on the public information officer payable from his or her own salary. This is the teeth of the act, this is what makes the act work. And this goes far beyond the right to information act. So far think of it, there is nothing, no matter how major a disaster where you can hold a public servant accountable. No matter what happens, if something affects 10,000 lives, one public servant cannot be held accountable. Here the concept of the sovereignty of the individual has been reinforced. You a sovereign ask a question and if the public servant does not reply, he or she is liable to pay a penalty of 250 rupees per day from their salary, personally liable. RTI application reaches the public information officer that is day 1, not when I make it. When it has reached the public information officer that is day 1. Then supposing in 15 days the public information officer decides to give me the information, he or she will send a ordinary letter and a postal certificate to me. The clock stops, so it is day 15. The letter takes me 4 days to reach, after 4 days supposing I pay the money after another 15 days, the clock is 0 until this whole period, it is still at 15. The clock starts again when I pay the money, there is an additional fee which one has to pay to get the information. The fee is typically 2 rupees per A4 size paper, for a CD it is about 50 rupees in most states. There are some variations in the fees from state to state and the central government and by and large this is the fee. For an A4 size paper 2 rupees per paper and for a CD 50 rupees or 100 rupees, these are the standard fees that you have to pay. So once you pay the fees then you are eligible to get the information. If you are not happy with the decision of the public information officer, then there is a process for a first appeal and then a second appeal can be filed. Each state can have its own rules. The act is common, act defines everything. But for the process of how the fees are to be paid, what are the fees and how is the appeal process, this each state has been given the right to frame separately. Maharashtra for example, the appeal fees is 10 rupees, there is a format that you have to follow. The format, index A, C rule 3, can you see the concrete example of how this was used by somebody. The question of garbage not getting cleared. Who is the public authority responsible for this? The municipal cooperation of Bombay. What is the administrative unit of the municipal cooperation? The ward office. So they addressed it to the public information officer, so and so ward assistant commissioner and the address. On top you write format of application under right to information act 2005 appendix C rule 3. This is the format. When you take a plain piece of paper, you can do it handwritten, you can do it on a computer, you can do it on a typewriter. The act has specified that nobody can insist that a form is required. This has been specified in the act itself. Now this is the format for Maharashtra. Central government has no format. Some states have format, some don't. You have to look at the rules of a particular state. And to access the rules of all these states, you can take a look at this website. www.satyameojaite.info. This would give you rules of each state, which would tell you what the fees etc. To come back to this format for Maharashtra, you address this to the public information officer. Full name of applicant. I repeat, individual citizen, any citizen can apply. You don't need loka standi. So your name, address, your address, particulars of the information required, subject matter of information. Now in the case of garbage, these citizens said clearance of garbage on streets so and so. That is all they said. Next is period to which information relates. They said current. Sometimes you want information 5 years back, 10 years back or statistical information of what's happened in the last 50 years and so on. Then you put that period. Description of information required. This is the key that determines how your thing will work. These citizens asked. They said on so and so street, we want the schedule of clearing of garbage. On which day and what time is garbage to be cleared. Question 2. We want the name and designation of the officer responsible for clearance of garbage. You can begin to understand what happens when such a question is asked and if it has to be answered, what will happen. Whether information is required by post or in person. For most people who can afford it, I would suggest by post. The cost is not more than about 20-25 rupees. Getting it in post. If by post registered, ask for it by registered post. Whether applicant is below poverty line. This is for those who are below poverty line, there are no fees to be paid. For most of your cases, the answer would be no. If somebody is below poverty line, then he or she has to attach a Xerox copy. Place, let's say Mumbai or whichever city you are in or whichever town. Date, signature of applicant. They are extremely simple format to follow. For Maharashtra government, you can pay the fee by getting a court fee stamp of 10 rupees. This is a 10 rupees court fee stamp which you can get outside most courts and at stamp vendors. Stick it on your application and that's it. You can pay this fees. For central government bodies, incidentally the court fee stamp does not work. There are 600 post offices across India. In Mumbai, GPO counter 15 you can go and there are 9 other post offices. Again the addresses of these are given on this website. You can sit at your own house, make it, send it by registered post, send it by registered AD. You will get your acknowledgement. That's adequate proof. If in 35 days for some reason he has not answered you, there is an appeal format. You will get it in the rules of Maharashtra. File your appeal according to that. Do not go anywhere. You do not call up any public information officer. Do not go and ask him for anything. You are exercising the majesty of the Indian citizen. You are not a beggar. Please do not go and beg anywhere and the act works. Believe me it works. The 10 rupee fees can also be paid at the ward office. Yes it can. Provisions are you can pay it in cash at that office. You can pay it by demand draft. You can pay it by an Indian postal order. These 3 options are always open. I just feel that this is a more convenient way of doing it because sometimes when you go to a ward office the cashier may not be there. You may have to wait etc. There are 10 post offices in Bombay that have been designated. And 600 across India. I am just giving GPOS one example of one of the post offices. Is this cost for CD and so on that you mentioned? Yes sir. That comes later or? So what happens is say after 15 days the PIO says I am going to give you information. If it is you ask for copies. Suppose it is 50 copies. Then you will say 50 into 200 rupees. Typical information that you ask will be usually 4, 5, 10 pages. So it will be 10 pages into 2. Please pay 20 rupees. If you ask for the information by registered post. You will say 25 rupees for registered post. Please pay 45 rupees. That is the time somebody has to go to that office and pay the money. Alternatively you can also remit the money by money order. You can actually do the whole process just sitting at home. That is the beauty of this. And it will work. First question why would somebody like to be a public information officer? Each public authority has to do it. To your next question which was can it be misused? Now this is a question that is very often asked. Let us pause for a while. What is information? Information is something that exists. Which means it is truth. By and large would we believe that truth would hurt? By and large would you believe that truth can lead to something bad? I am not saying there can be no case. I repeat there is no activity in human endeavour where there can be no misuse. Somebody will always find one way of misusing it. I completely agree there. But that does not stop us from doing everything. Why do we do all this? We have laws, we have various things and everything is misused. So the potential for misuse always exists. But by and large the belief is that truth will sanitize. Truth will only be good for everybody. Truth will be good for the entire society. That is the fundamental belief. Come back. You would say very well I can get information very easy. But so what? What will I do with information? In the case of garbage as I told you they put these two questions. And next day onwards the garbage started getting cleared properly. Because they realized that providing these answers now accountability is getting fixed. One of the most powerful cases of use of right to information that I have come across in my career is it happened three years back. The Maharashtra Act was there which is similar to the National Act. January 2004. This is a very young boy from Bihar aged 22 years. His educational qualification 7th standard. Who came to Mumbai looking for a job. Where did he stay? In a Jopapatti. He had some people from his village so he went and put a small bundle there. And while he was going around looking for a job there was a good RTI workshop being held. A good RTI workshop incidentally is about one and a half to two hours. He understood that he did not need a form. He understood that he could put a 10 rupee coffee stamp and so on. Having understood this he moved on. Got a job and after that he needed something which all of us do. All citizens feel they do without it you feel as if you know you have no identity. A ration card. So he also said I need a ration card. He went to a rationing office filled up his form. As he was going out the Pune followed him. And the Pune at the door asked him. He said do you want a ration card? He said yes that is why I have come here. So the Pune said chai paani lagega. This young lad said teeka apko chai pila denge. So this Pune said no no chai paani does not mean chai pila na. So he said what do you mean? This young boy made a statement which I think makes me feel at times ashamed. At times very proud. He said I shall not give a bribe. My goose nahi doonga. A lot of us would find it difficult to make such a bold statement. And he went the Pune went back. When he went back his neighbours asked him what had occurred and he described. So they said friend without paying you will not get your ration card. I mean you can wait interminably and you will need a ration card. So some people said try to go and bargain. If you go and bargain they will bring it down. You know if you bargain well somebody said you can bring it down to 1500 rupees. This chap repeated the same story. He says no I will not pay. Others someone else suggested they said look it is very good to say that you will not pay corruption and not pay a bribe. But you need a ration card. So do one thing. Go and cry before them. Go and cry before the saab there catches feet. And tell him how your mother has got cancer. The roof has fallen down on your heart. And then they will take pity on you. When they take pity they will bring it down further. Up to 800 rupees we have heard that a ration card has been given. At less than 800 rupees there is no way you can get a ration card. This man again said no. He started finding out in large busties in his joprapattis. Incidentally some of you may not know some of these joprapattis have 20, 30, 40,000 people. And people keep coming from villages regularly. So the need for ration card is a routine affair. He asked others and discovered that they were all getting their ration cards in 3, 4, 5 weeks. 4 weeks was the average. He waited 8 weeks doing nothing. At the end of 8 weeks he took that format. Took a plain piece of paper and wrote on that. To the public information officer, so and so rationing office. Put his name etc. And description of information he said, I want these 2 information. Number 1, I made an application for ration card on so and so date. Xerox copy of receipt attached. I want to know the progress of my file. On which date which officer had my file. What action did he or she take on the file. And then to whom did it move. Question 2, in the last 4 months I want a list of people who applied for ration cards. Dates on which they applied for ration cards. And dates on which the ration cards were given to them. Now we can all understand that if this information was to be provided. It would cause a major problem for them. So the next day the pun came and told him he went to the office. Got his ration card. And what to me is more important or equally important is. He got a cup of tea and a glass of water. He got chai pani. And to me this cup of tea and glass of water represents. Respect to the sovereign individual citizen of India. One citizen exercised his right under right to information. And the public servant who would never have even bothered to look at him. Said please sit down. I will give you a cup of tea. Yes sir. Well I do not know what happened in his case. Legally you are to answer this. I know of another instance in Pune. There is a friend called Vijay Kumar. Last this October around Diwali time. He was not getting a gas cylinder. Because his wife said the gas cylinders are being sold in black to the hotels. And the residential consumers do not get it unless they pay some black money. So he said okay who does the cylinder come from Hindustan Petroleum in his case. So he said public information officer Hindustan Petroleum. And he said for this so and so dealer. I want an account for the last 2 months of cylinders supplied to him. Where have they gone and copies of all the bills. Now if this were to be given it would again have exposed what was happening. 1 o clock Vijay Kumar went to that HP office. Gave his application. 3 o clock. The dealer which one man and the cylinder were at his house. And they said no no please never sir whenever you want you just call me. I will come running. They gave the cylinder Vijay Kumar took the cylinder. But he said I will still get the information. Your right to information still remains. He took the information. And last I heard he was making moves to get the dealer's license cancelled. So your right to information remains. It is just that a lot of citizens quite often are quite happy when their job gets done. Cases like this of getting ration cards, passports where passports are not being given. Income tax refunds, sales tax refunds, pensions, PF, gratuity dues these are lots of these. I mean you can keep on counting and they have been done across India. Land occupants. Land occupants absolutely. People even in villages who probably just know how to use a thumb somebody helps them. The law in fact says that the public information officer if somebody cannot try must help him to write. But that is still in the dream stages. I think it will take us some years before we get there. But certainly this is what works. Let me go back and explain information is what exists. In Bharati I call information ATM. Ahit Timilain. There is no perspectives. The PIO has no perspective to offer. If you say for example why don't you do like this supposing this ration card case this boy had asked. Why don't you give me a ration card. It would not be information. There is no issue. He only said I want progress. Now that is information that exists in the office. There is no issue of different perspectives. You think of anything where it is information which exists in the office. There is no two perspectives. You are saying that information exists. Please let me know. So therefore it is not subject to individual subjectivity or perspectives. It is only what exists that has to be given. Ahit Timilain. This seems to be undefined with respect to employees of the organizations. So if you are a member of Hindustan Petroleum and you were to ask that question. Would that sovereign right be still valid for that employee? Absolutely. Absolutely. So long as you are a citizen of India. In fact what has happened funnily is that about not exact percent is not available but very significant probably between 20 and 40 percent of the usage is by the employees. For redressing things like this promotions, transfers, pensions, salaries, salary arrears. And I have had instances where I have been giving a talk and somebody gets up. One lady stood up the other day and said I was not getting my salary arrears of something which I had left. Some school or something. I filed a right to information application and I got my salary arrears. So this has been used extensively by employees of the organizations themselves also which is perfectly alright. I mean it will be used in both ways. One is for personal because you are redressing a personal grievance which is what really democracy is about. But also let me give you a few larger cases of usage of what I call public interest. One of my own cases was last year probably most of you will recall the case of police constable More. Having raped a minor at Manin Drive. This was in April last year. People were aghast very understandably so. April 29 times of India had a news item on page one splashed there which said that citizens had demonstrated the earlier day to say that the government must hold this man accountable. More must be punished and so on. On page 6 was a small news item which said as follows. It talked of police inspector Prakash Aavre. This was police constable. It said police inspector Prakash Aavre of Bombay police raped a minor in September 2004. All the medical records all the evidence was clear as to what had occurred. In December he was suspended from service. In December 2004 the case came up in court victim turned hostile. Which is quite common when they come from poor families. The case was dismissed by the court. Worse still within 6 months of the event that is in March 2005. Police inspector Prakash Aavre suspension had been revoked. And in April 2005 police inspector Prakash Aavre was back in service. He was working as an inspector. And we were talking about a police constable. What could I do? Write to information. I find a write to information application to the public information officer. Police commissioner of Mumbai, Crawford market etc. I enclose the cutting and I said I am referring to this Prakash Aavre. And in this case I said the first question came out of anger. I want to do something natural. You know you say how do I use this and shake him up. So the first question I asked was I said I want a copy of the Xerox copy of the chart sheet FIR and medical report. Then I sat and thought for a while. If they give it to me what will I do with it? When there will be a medical report, there will be a chart sheet, there will be a FIR. What am I going to prove? Then the next question occurred to me. I am telling you this because it is a process of how you ask questions. So next question I asked was I said I want a copy of the letter revoking Prakash Aavre suspension. Now what I realised is if they had to give me that letter, it would reveal the name of a top police official who had revoked the suspension. And therefore one could hold him accountable. Now this was extremely sensitive. So they rejected my application frivolously. I filed an appeal. And now you do not have to go for an appeal at hearing but you have an opportunity of being heard. So there was a very senior police officer who was there. He said Mr Gandhi what you are saying is right. This is very bad. So I said then why are you hiding this? I am as a citizen helping you to correct around. They did not give me the information again on this particular case. But in August 2005, May 2nd 2005 I filed my RIT application. August 2005 the police has given it to me in writing that in July 2005 police inspector Prakash Aavre was dismissed from service. That is the power of right to information that any individual citizen sitting in their own houses can exercise. I did not. As I said I could have pursued. No I could have pursued my right still remained. Question is you look at an overall I mean let us say I have so much time. So I am trying to pursue certain objectives. And then I realised that I would have to put in too much effort to get the information out. But I look at it like this that in most cases the past wrongs are difficult to correct. People will defend. People will dig in. If somebody is lied he is going to try and defend. And the amount of time I will spend trying to get it out. But can I correct the future? Which quite often I can. Do we need not fear? Fear is more in our minds. In my right to information applications I have challenged the public, the prime minister of India, the chief minister, the director general of police, the police commissioner of Bombay, BMC, land mafia, mill lands, you name it it is there. And nobody is ever threatening me. I am not saying it cannot happen. Well if I go out on the road there is a chance I can get killed. Ten people are killed on the trains of Bombay every day. So something like that chances always there. But by and large unless you make it into a personal vendetta. I think the chances are not there. I mean I am one example nobody is ever bothered to threaten me. So I have been taking up some fairly high profile kind of cases. Crafted market is the case I wanted to or let me take another one. Lease lands. We say we are poor. The state is poor, the government has no money. We are all very poor. I would submit to you that we are really rich. And I will prove that to you. Under right to information I obtained information that lot of public lands, lands that belong to all of us are given on lease. Fair enough. If you give something on lease to me for five years after five years what will you do? You will say either raise the rent to today's rent or please get out. Extremely simple convention transaction. The government does not do this. In the island city of Bombay I have got documentary evidence of 900 acres of land where leases have expired. Leases were given five years, ten years, fifty years, ninety-nine years. Leases expire. And no lease renewal is done. To just give you one or two examples of what it means simplex mills in the heart of Bombay 7800 square meter plot lease expired in 1983. They continue there. What is the legal status? Illegal occupiers. The government allows that. What is the lease rent they pay per year? 48 rupees and 81 paisa per year. 48 rupees and 81 paisa for 7800 square meters. Shapur ji palan ji amongst the ten richest people in India. 25000 square meters leases expired. They pay 1600 rupees per year as rent for 25000 square meter. My computation shows that presently that is in 2007 the total public loss of revenue for Bombay city alone is over 8000 crores. Stretched over Maharashtra it is likely to be 20 to 25000 crores. Maharashtra is in debt of 1 lakh 20000 crores. Do I have to be in debt? I do not have to be in debt. And this money it is not taxpayer's money. It belongs to the poorest man in Maharashtra who could actually be starving to death. Six and a half thousand children die of malnutrition. To me the picture of this is more self being taken away from the poorest little child who then goes and dies. It is sin. It is something unacceptable. And right to information lots of us will start using. There are 5000 crores scam in the municipal markets of Bombay which last year using right to information I was able to expose and it stopped. Two months back the municipal cooperation has stopped that. Though the chief minister had accepted this the improvements committee of the cooperation had accepted this. The fact that the citizen brings out this data is able to stop this. So this is an extremely powerful right. And the beauty is you can do it sitting in your own house at a very small cost. The cost is what? Total cost typically is between 50 to 100 rupees. Time taken about one hour. Do you need to go anywhere? No. Do you need to call up anybody? No. Do you need to follow up anything? No. At best if you do not get an answer or you get a rejection file an appeal. Is all information given to you? There are some exemptions which have been given in the booklets given to you. There are 10 exemption clauses but by and large most information is available to us. We just need to begin to use this. If you do not use it then it is a dead act. We have seen is everybody talks of transparency actually right to information is part of transparency and honesty. Revealing. But as I have told others everybody I mean the men particularly like others wives to wear transparent clothes. They do not want to be transparent. Now when the act was signed by the president of India in 3 days he sent a letter to the prime minister saying communication between president and prime minister should be exempt. The prime minister said no no no no no Daya cannot be exempt but he is also a bureaucrat so after 20 days they said fine noting must be exempt and so on and so forth. Everybody the supreme court of India which said this is a fundamental right of citizens has said we should be exempt. The high court of Bombay high court of Maharashtra refused to even entertain RTA applications for one year and they have now come out with a set of rules which are completely perverse. We are fighting those battles. The unfortunate part is we have all become used to the concept that we need not be transparent we need not be honest. However this is citizens act and if we mobilize ourselves the cabinet decided to dilute the act about 3 months back and citizens action was able to stop that and citizen action can stop that no government can dare touch this if we are united in this result simple result that we will not allow any dilution of our freedom if we do that we will retain it if we do not use it yes the act will be there I do not deny that but I am saying today we have an extremely powerful tool that is being used extensively across the country by villagers by city bread people and as more and more of us start using it sitting in our own homes at our own times first week of every month if you just take a decision that I will make one RTA application about what and I do not have time is what lot of people say a survey of mine shows that all Indian citizens crib for 10 hours every month about what is wrong this is wrong that is wrong roads prime minister system of election direct mayor president so on and so forth sort of kangooly absolutely absolutely my suggestion is if it is good for your health continue cribbing for 9 hours every month one hour on one of the issues that you are cribbing about make a vow first week of every month you will file one right information application even if you do not pursue appeals I mean if you do it will be very good the very fact that you ask impacts governance there are lot of cases of this nature where seeing one is to one co-relationship between the RTI question and the answer like in the Vijay Kumar case or the rationing card or the Prakash Avare case my guess is happens in about 10% of the cases 5 to 10% in another 25-30% you impact the governance structure even if they have done something wrong next time they do not want to do that because they are scared they are afraid about it so you begin to impact the governance structure therefore roughly in about 30-40% of the cases 35-40% you do impact the governance structure simple dream is when you have to get together even 20 of us it is difficult sitting in my own house issue is yours whatever you feel passionate about whatever you feel passionate about whatever you feel is important issue is yours sitting in your own house file one RTI application first week of every month if we can get 15-20 lakh citizens across India which is not a big figure mind you 15-20 lakhs of us regularly using right to information as a tool for better governance as a tool to address our own problems as a tool to ensure that somebody else's injustice is removed two crore times a year we start asking questions we can change the face of governance in India some people have told me of course I get a mix of reactions I was at Delhi yesterday and there were people from rural Uttar Pradesh some of them had heard this talk 8 months earlier and they were very thrilled they said Mr Gandhi after hearing your talk we filed some 150 applications in that area and out of that in 60 cases we've had problem resolutions so I think it's fantastic but in some cases it may not don't look at it as your individual success look at it as a process I'm saying 15-20 lakhs of us just decide it's not difficult at our own houses in 3-5 years the face of governance will change some people say but I can't see the result how do I know to them I say a lot of us go to mandhis, masjids, gurudwaras, churches once a week, once a month whenever depending on beliefs when someone goes there and comes out there's something fall into the pocket nothing does then why do people do it they do it as an act of faith they have faith going there something good will happen what do we do as an act of faith for the nation nothing can we do this simple act as an act of faith for our nation and I can assure you you can logically see that yes it can have an impact I mean this is not like a jadhu mantar that is being told to nation in the US the citizen just picks up the phone or she gets the answer yet the act came there in 1966 in 2002 there were over 2 million applications in 2003 there were over 3 million applications in 2004 there were over 4 million applications so the worldwide experience has been that wherever it is implemented because it becomes a citizens thing in various places citizens start and the empowerment it gives you you know you see that the government shakes the that bhiari boy he got a cup of tea just imagine the empowerment he must have felt somebody who nobody look at he is asked to sit down the citizen empowerment is phenomenal in this absolutely phenomenal and it has got to be seen to be believed and this helps you exercise the power of one please understand critically I repeat unless we start believing that the individual is sovereign of this nation it will not work this democracy is a concept of people not as a mass we the people individually individually when we talk of we the people it is not as a mass of people it is we individually yes sir sir do we have any right and procedure to just cross check that the information provided to us is correct or not yes very good question you can actually ask for inspection of files right to information gives you access to asking for records asking for copies you can inspect files so if you suspect that some information given to is wrong you can then say I want to inspect those files no if you like you can first ask for inspection also your first application can be I want inspection of documents you can have a separate one saying I want this information that is possible on the same application both will not work you will have to have two different applications but you can ask for inspection it gives you to ask for samples you can ask for samples of whatever drugs that you suspect are bad food grains road concrete core from a bridge whatever you like that is also possible right to inspection does it come under the same law and exactly same format in fact if you read that booklet see it defines what is right to information it includes inspection of documents it includes inspection of works it includes getting samples all that is part of the law I mean I would need normally to have a good workshop I would need about 6 hours then I could take you through various provisions so I am only trying to give you a flavour of the act but believe me it is very simple as you know I am an engineer I am not a lawyer but this is a very very simple act you can if you go to the website also you will get a look at the act read the act read the rules it is not difficult it is extremely simple and a chap like me at 56 can start learning it young people like all of you starting at a much younger age and much smarter will find it much easier to be able to use this sir I have a question in case of public organizations that subcontract their works to a private entity can we still pose the question to the public organization regarding the files of the private party which has taken up work on behalf of the you can the act does not say what can be given it says everything can be given except the exemptions the word confidentiality has disappeared from the entire thing the act is an act to give you information there are 10 exemptions anything that does not fit in the exemptions has to be given to you in fact the act goes further it says information which can be accessed by a public authority forget giving work if lets say there is a private body and I ask a public authority and say you under the law can get this information from him the public authority has to get it from him and give it to me it goes further there is an overriding section 8-2 which says notwithstanding all the exemptions of 8-1 8-1 is the section by which information is exempt notwithstanding all the exemptions of section 8-1 if there is a greater public interest information shall be provided so it is weighted very very heavily in favour of giving information we need to work we need to earlier ATM if information exists it has to be given if it does not exist it does not have to be given they do not have to keep records to answer you if IIT is keeping the record of my marks then they have to be given in fact I talked to a lot of government offices also so at one central government organisation I had been called and they said Mr Gandhi somebody is asking 10 years old a record of who went in the guest house and paid how much money so I said do you have the record yes we have it if you do not need it why are you maintaining such a stupid record improve your record keeping but so long as you maintain the record you will have to give it because why do you have a record otherwise if you say the record is necessary that is your decision whether the record must be kept for one day one month one year 10 years 100 years but then there should be some kind of directory which says such records should be maintained such periodicity that is part of every organisation duty in fact there is a section 4 which says so motto you must declare all these things must be there I mean any good organisation should have all of these but to me I had asked about names of political leaders who had recommended police transfers police transfers so I asked for 2 years at that time and that is a running battle that is a huge battle really so ultimately after a lot of going back and forth they gave me 1 years that list said chief minister of Maharashtra deputy chief minister so many times so and so so many times so and so MLA and so on and so forth so I said what about the earlier year so they said we have destroyed it precise question I asked what you are raising what is your record keeping system show me and show me the register of destruction of records so first the police answered they said we do not maintain it I said tomorrow you will say you do not maintain FIRs you cannot act lawlessly like this so I mean you can pursue these things these are things of records but it will also help institutions remove records if they do not need because unless they records are kept which serve no purpose whatsoever any other questions friends yes about the larger public good information can be denied in such a case no no we will be given and notwithstanding on the exemptions if there is a large public good so those exemptions are noted down and they are fixed that is in fact they have given in the booklet I am not able to go through these 10 exemptions they are given in the booklet they are given in the act you can also take a look at the website they are listed specifically listed exemptions okay I think we will probably have to bring a close to this before I end I would just like to end with a small story this happened a few thousand years back it was Amavasya the day when no moon is there sunset time people like to watch sunset so a lot of people had collected at the beach to watch the sunset sun was going down they were used of blue, orange violet, red it is a beautiful sight and the sun kept going down and down and down and suddenly the rim was seen and the sun froze people were watching 5 minutes 10 minutes 15 minutes and they said what has happened something has gone wrong one little boy he took courage and he asked he said oh lord sun why have you stopped you must go further and the sun said I am worried today is Amavasya and if I go down there will be complete darkness a little lamp was there he said lord give me a spark and if you give me a spark complete darkness cannot occur the lord gave him the spark sun went down there was little light this lamp gave its light to the others and that was the first Diwali