 Do we know anything about sort of workshop personnel or setup? For the early Islamic period we don't have the records you know for the workshops and so on. We have for letter workshops in the 17th century for instance in Moghul India and because all these European travelers you know when scholars and so on you know gave us some accounts of what they saw and so on and so of course there were and we can be sure that anyway there were assistants oh yeah for instance for the sewing of the blocks you know you have big so's so probably both so's you know so one hand for each apprentice where at you know both ends right so right doing you know running yes yeah and also one other could you know for the abrasion and water right orders and our waters well and it seems like such a highly skilled form of craft that you would have to have that that kind of lengthy apprenticeship with different steps being learned and for sure because we saw that on ethnographic you know records and so on that you have to start when you are very young yes yeah when you are a child you know and at the beginning they're probably aware you know running the bow for the master and also doing the tubular drilling as well yeah yeah it was scutwork yeah yeah and crushing you know the powder and right what they did in the Renaissance for instance you know when the for the pigments were crushed yeah for the painters exactly you give the kids the the jobs that you can trust them and no more well well