 This is news click and play things of alien forces. We have reassembled after a break of many weeks where I think all of us were looking at other aspects of our, I don't know, lives and careers and other such things. But we're back. We're back, of course, in the midst of a war in Europe, Russia and Ukraine currently engaged in a military conflict that has grown from a limited sort of theater specific conflict into one that has included large parts of the world that is impacting perhaps all of it, including us here in India, whether it's in terms of fuel prices or other essential products. Trade, energy and other such things. Over the course of the weeks of this conflict, this war, we found that increasingly sport has become a topic of conversation or another front on which at least the economic side of this war is being played out. A lot of pressure being exerted by the West, the US, Europe and NATO and their allies, including widespread bands on Russian athletes, not just teams representing Russia, but also individual athletes who happen to come from that country or carry that passport, were born there, perhaps live and train there. To discuss the merits and the merits of, and the politics, of course, of these sporting bands, we have with us senior veteran journalists, today's sports journalists who've covered a vast range of sports, multi-disciplinary sports, motor sports, cricket, football, the Olympic games and other such. Leslie Xavier, Newstik Sports Editor, of course, and Sharda Ugra are both with us. First of all, yes, and I'll start with you Sharda, your understanding of how the politics of these bands or the logic with which they are employed, what does history tell us about how this has happened and have they had the kind of effect that is desired? You know, these bands that are there, they come along at very selective times because the international press is largely English speaking, Western dominated, the press with the money and the media with the money and the influence and the almost like the cashier running the sort of mental outlook of what the world thinks it should be like. So you have these things taking place, these sanctions imposed. I remember in the 80s, it was so hard to get sanctions to be imposed on South Africa until very, very late, you know, so that the voices that were protesting against the apartheid movement came from the non-Western countries, the non-Caucasian countries, if I can use the phrase, and to get that voice. Yes, yes, and to get that voice, it's like you were, you know, shouting into avoid at some point, whereas now you're seeing that it's, you know, it was in what was a practice that was so reprehensible and so abominable, it took so long to budge. And it was sport that actually did kind of make the final push. I don't think that sport, Mr. Poo, that is going to worry about his athletes not competing, it will just kind of get everybody's backs up. So you have to look at it in several ways, you know, there is a war that is being fought and a trauma that the Ukrainians and that are going through, including the athletes that are there among them, those who have decided to take up arms, that's all very valid. But the sanctions, I think it's almost a, dare I say it's a token gesture because it's not like Europe is stopping oil and gas or Britain is stopping oil and gas coming from there. It's not like, you know, there hasn't been sanctions where it hits the easiest people to go after are the athletes, athletes, singers, artists, musicians, you know, they're the simplest, they're the softest touches in many ways. Yeah. Let's see, do you also see it as near tokenism or is it like slightly more even sinister than that, that if you want to sort of participate in and partake of the wealth and the fame that comes with being part of the global sporting circus, then you must also either remain politically absolutely neutral in this case also the demands being made are not just neutrality but outright sort of they are asking for these athletes to outright decry or denounce their own country. And literally choose the side of the opposition. I mean, how is that a realistic expectation to have on individuals? So the realistic expectations are not apart. If you look at, for instance, the band by Wimbledon on Russian and Russian players, I mean, Rubly who had clearly sent out a message against the war, he has been banned. So it's a blanket ban. So what does the athlete have to do now? He has to be completely denounce his own country and step out of the country and be a player without a nation and then compete. I mean, that doesn't work like that. So where is a huge level of hypocrisy happening in this ban politics in this game of bands? And it has various layers to it as well. So even when Sharda said about the selective nature of this ban, we have discussed this previously as well that the conflict that is happening in Ukraine is not the only conflict that is happening across the world. In the past 20, 30 years, if you look at it, there have been wars that have been waged, the Gulf wars, the two Gulf wars, the continuous conflict and violations of human rights that happened in Israel, Palestine and Saudi's actions in Yemen. So many other issues in Africa, Syria conflict. So we all know which all nations are part of those conflicts. USA has a prominent role in many of these conflicts and Britain have had its own role. So by that measure, no American athlete or no British athlete or no Israeli athlete should be allowed to compete in any of these global competitions. But then the outrage came out now and it's also a very concerted effort to push. So the, so the politics that's been played by playing behind it goes beyond just the claim that it is to stop Russia and put its avenue for propaganda, that is sport. It has everything to do with the global, the West and their mechanism to push back some kind of an opposition they are facing in their game, in their game to control the world and the politics and the economics that is there. So the, if you ask me what is the sinister goal behind it, what purpose does it, does it serve? It doesn't, obviously it doesn't serve the purpose of finding a resolution to the conflict as such. I mean these athletes. In some ways it's kind of just, just pushing for a further escalation on a different front as well. Instead of like on the one hand you talk of, or you make statements of how sport is meant to unite and bring people together and sport is a platform for peace and all of that. And then on the other hand you go ahead and sort of unilaterally in fact ban people from competing. So on one side you are saying that it is to stop sport being used as a propaganda. But then on the other hand you are using sport to wield the soft power and attack the other party. So it's, and also you are actually affecting the life, livelihood and careers of athletes who has no clear say or role in this conflict. So they, I mean in all the countries if you look at it, at least don't have a say whether the country is going to war or not going to war. And then I had to say like for instance long back during the Vietnam War, Muhammad Ali came out, he was a world champion then and he came out against the war and he spoke out and he lost years from his career. He was incarcerated for that. So that is the, and we are talking about USA who is the vanguard for freedom and individual liberty and all these things. So when that has happened in the US and history has taught us lessons and you are expecting Russian athletes to come out and speak and face whatever the repercussions that come from it. And I'm not just talking about jail or whatever the law that is prevailing in that country. I'm also talking about alienation because you are part of the country and you are part of a society. And then you are standing and speaking against your own countrymen that could alienate these athletes also. And you can't just expect these athletes to do that. And if they do that, come and do that, that's their own personal choice. So we shouldn't be imposing it on them. So that's a larger discussion that we should be having as well. Sharda, both of you actually, what do you make of the stand that Leslie was mentioning the case of this Andre Rublyov and he's winning this Serbia Open but they're not being able to play Wimbledon up next. Despite beating the world champion, he's won three tournaments this year which puts him, I think, makes him in the men's tennis game the most successful guy this year next to Nadal. So obviously someone who was on top of his game in with a shot of winning the competition. These bands also, of course, detract from the very systems that largely these are Western driven professional tours, television events, etc. Wimbledon is called the championships and it's played in London. But the whole world watches it and it's perhaps one of the most widely watched tennis events in the world. Some of the shine of that tournament goes away when so you're hitting yourself as well. So what is the logic actually, I mean is if any, and what do you make of what like bodies like the International Olympic Committee, for example, what their stand has been on? I think the most interesting thing that's happened with this has been the response of the two tours, the men's tour and the women's tour to say that this is unacceptable. And there was a new story that went out. I don't know whether that's been finalized, whether it's happened. They met to decide whether to take points of, say we won't give you points for Wimbledon because it's a tournament in which the merit that brings players into the tournament based on the rankings that we have is what decides the event. And if you don't have ranking points, then it just becomes an exhibition event. And so if that goes through, it'll be a genuine, a real pushback against this kind of, you know, the use of the athlete as a propaganda tool. Like Leslie said, to counter what you're saying is the propaganda tool of the Russian state as such. So that comes through, it'll be a very big step. And I think in a way that it'll also mean, for example, that those two tours have distanced themselves because it's the tennis players who run the tour. They've said, this is the stand we wish to take. I do hope it comes through because the IOC tends to be where we're all but individual IOC members and we're a family and it's run by the countries that are behind it. I feel the Wimbledon band has come about with perhaps a lot of pressure or a lot of conversation from the British Foreign Office because the Sports Minister said those things. You know, that you have to say you are against Putin and whatever. I mean, I don't think every every British football player is a fan of Boris Johnson, you know, and his policies. For example, you have to ask Marcus Rashford what he thinks about the government at the moment. So to my mind, I would like to see what happens with reference to whether the athletes can actually get some of this back. In the Olympics, it'd be very tough to do because it becomes a big sort of, you know, rara, you will compete with. I mean, the poor athletes, the Russians, they are not allowed to have their countries flag next to their image. The anthem is not played, the country's name is not taken. I said, how much more do you want to punish them? You know, these are young people. So like Leslie said, you have nothing to do with them. They haven't been responsible for starting it and they are not going to be responsible for ending it as well. So you go on. No, ATB and WTA stands in that regard because they also had removed the flags from the ranking list obviously. But as far as professional sport is concerned, not just tennis, you have boxing, you have UFC. So in all this, you have NFL in fact, Russian players are still playing in the US. So in all these areas, sport takes the business of sport, takes business as well. So you have Russian fighters fighting for the title as well as well. So in that regard, ATB had a clear deal with Wimbledon or any tournament organizers. The entry criteria is ranking point and if you discriminate with the country, that's actually a breach of contract. So they are mulling action. They are not, I mean, yeah, of course, considering the station and the history of the tournament, there wouldn't be outright removal or anything of that sort. But docking off ranking points is a real scenario. It's not been decided yet. So they are discussing that as such. But the larger point is that professional athletes again still have some sort of respect. But it's not the same for Olympic athletes. It's not the same for amateur athletes, the young athletes coming up and all that. So you are basically cutting that route which enables these... You are talking about Russian athletes who are again considered medal prospects when an Olympic comes around, for instance, or any global event as such. So you are basically attacking those athletes and taking away their chances. And not just this current generation of athletes, but also a few generations would be effective as such. So this is a larger attack on sport as such. And sporting bodies don't realise it. In the politics, they lose that plot, lose that idea. Yeah, if anything, on the face of it, this should be exactly the kind of thing that the IOC responds to by saying, hey, this is government interference in the functioning of sport. We will not stand for it. But somehow that's not how it plays out. Interestingly, the NHL, the National Hockey League in the US, which is perhaps the professional sporting league that involves the maximum number of Russians. Ice hockey being, I think, perhaps the biggest sport in Russia, not up there at least. And I think people will remember in the late 80s, 90s. Slava Fetezov actually, who is the current sports minister in Putin's government was among the first Russian ice hockey players to get over the barriers that then existed and be allowed to play professional sport in the US. Now, of course, he's also on the sanctions list. But interestingly enough, the NHL has not taken any decision, nor is it contemplating any kind of ban on Russian players. So when the NHL draft happens later on, Russians will be drafted. And of course, existing players who are playing for various NHL teams will continue to play there. So it's interesting how where there is an impact, a clear impact. And some of these Russian players are the best in their teams, in their league and draw thousands of television and live in the flesh, stadium audiences, they sell shirts, etc., etc. So interesting that the ban doesn't extend to those guys. But lots of interesting things. In an Indian context, I want to ask you guys, and perhaps we can then wind up this little conversation. I had the opportunity to hang out over the last couple of months with a few. And of course, it started out with confusion, lots of questions. Like what should we think about this? Because India also has a very special relationship, historical relationship with Russia. And even though there may be on the streets very little understanding of the conflict between Ukraine and Russia in this case, but there is not the kind of blanket villainization of everything Russian that perhaps exists in western culture, popular culture. Have you guys spoken to any part of Indian sports fraternity, whether it's journalists or athletes? And what is their kind of take on the bans and where we stand vis-a-vis the war? I mean, of course, it's not that we need to be in a position to in any case take sides. I think it should be without any, this thing that like no war is a good war and is anything that any of us support. But what is the sentiment in general in the sporting fraternity here? Generally, I mean, see, again, the voices against war and against the conflicts is prominent here. But as far as the band is concerned, I don't think anybody, I mean, anybody that I have come across, I have spoken to support, support these kind of moves. So because it is a double-edged sword always and these bands doesn't serve anybody's purpose. At the same time, it also brings down, brings the discipline to sport and to the competing nations as well. So that's why someone like a Jokovic who has come out against speaking against the band. He says that you are, I mean, of course, he is one of his, I mean, two of his strongest rivals have been banned. So he feels that even if he wins the tournament, it would, the achievement would be belittled by the fact that it was a depleted tournament. The same thing with, I mean, if you look at India, the Indian football team played Belarus, a friendly match. And that was within the rule because that's allowed as well. You can play in a neutral when you friendly match. And so it was not against that prevalent blanket band by FIFA that would stop Belarus from playing in FIFA tournaments and all that. And they played. So the fact that India was willing to play friendly with Belarus kind of shows where our politics as well as the sporting mechanism stands as far as the band is concerned. We look at, we have always stood out. So as Sharda mentioned, we were in the forefront when pushing for the apartheid band because there was right in it. And I believe Indian football team playing Belarus is also us standing for what is right and ethical as far as sport is concerned. So in that regard, we have always, I mean, India as a country has always stood out ground as far as doing what seems to be the right move. Of course, these things can change because global politics and push and business and all these are intertwined in a big mess. So when push comes to show everything, everybody gets back. But Russia and their relations have always been so on a popular front. If you ask me, it's very difficult to demonize Russia because Russia has always been a ally for India historically speaking. And there have been cultural exchanges that have been understanding like that. So yeah, so that's what the predominant emotion that I have felt speaking to people in the fraternity with sportspersons. Sharda, last word from you and then we wrap this up. Yeah, I mean I agree pretty much with what Leslie said with whatever conversations is. The idea of sporting bands kind of hits people and they don't like the idea of it for reasons that are not doping, you know, that kind of thing. So you see this doesn't make any sense because there's nobody involved. I think what's also interesting I remembered with reference to Belarus is that there was an anti-athletes protest against the president of Belarus the last time. They went to jail as well. You know, I think if you need your athletes to be inspired by what they see as their power and their responsibility, the athletes of Belarus actually show the world a lot of it by signing this letter. There were thousands, I mean some of them were in jail. So, you know, I think because of the fact that we have the president of having Russians love their children too, that song that Sting had to produce. So we always knew that because we grew up surrounded by this exchange with the Russians and so on. So there is definitely there's a certain anger at the fact that these athletes have been targeted for whatever, for absolutely no excuse at all. Yeah, fair enough. All right. Thank you both for your time this afternoon. For those of you who are listening to us, this is Playthings of Alien Forces. You can catch us and get more details on these and other stories from our website, newsstick.in. Also, we will now be available on Spotify as a podcast or not just Spotify actually on wherever you get your podcast with this Google or Apple or Spotify or wherever it might be. So check us out there, follow us and we will be coming to you from now on hopefully at least once a week with conversations from around the sporting world with a particular focus, of course, on what's happening in India. Yep, this has been a new skin presentation. Thanks very much. Goodbye.