 Wonderful. Just started recording and, I mean, I welcome both Karina and my friend Havi Atlantanen from SCB. Today they're going to talk about sustainable payments. It's not going to be that. It intrigues me a lot. So wouldn't waste too much time and I will leave the stage to Karina directly. Karina, welcome here for this chat with the community and I thank you so much for accepting the invitation. It's great to be here. I leave the stage to you and to Harry to detail your solution, what you're working on. Great. Thank you. Yeah, for inviting both of us and we have been working a lot last year with this proof of concept that we were doing and I will show you a couple of slides and together with Karina so that there is some background of what actually was done and why this was done. And we have been giving a header for the session from EU initiative, European Union Initiative called Twin Transition, which is meaning that we should put the technology work for sustainability, meaning that when we are now creating new solutions by new technology, that should be benefiting the planetary situation, not exploiting that we will come back into that item. And that was something that was also triggering us to look into banks holding data that we are having from customers when it comes to payments. And we have now opportunity to use that payments data for different purposes. And last April May when we started the journey, I was looking into some marketing tell and there were not too much cases where this kind of analysis was done, especially for business to business payment transactions. There is a lot of tools available for private versions, analyzing the transactions that and payments that people are doing from sustainability point of view, but not for businesses. And that was one of the key element why we started to investigate together with the customer. So creating a combo of bank, a company that Planeton and Karina is presenting an expert for sustainability analysis, and then a customer who is actually running payments with SCB. So that was the background for the case and the going further just by the second I get the control back to me. Please, Karina could you please start explaining the twin transition while we are talking about that? Yes, sure. Thank you, Harry. And hi everyone. And thank you, Andrea and Tom for having us. It's great to see such interest in the same interest that we share. Of course, happy to share our thoughts and insights with you guys. So why twin transition? As Harry stated, it's a green transition together with a digital transition or transformation. And why do we need that then? Well, if we take a look back on the industrial revolution since it started, this is to no surprise to you guys, but it has of course brought massive development and innovation with that global development that has solved many of the problems that we have had since the inception of the revolution. If you click again, Harry, this is more of a sad story then, because at the same time with the same sort of exponential growth, we have also had a lot of emissions, greenhouse gas emissions. We have also, if you press again, Harry, seen those emissions affecting our oceans and also the industrial fishing has affected the way we capture fish. And lastly also how we use our land has also increased at the same rate as the development with lots of forest and use of land as a consequence. So what needs to happen going forward, which what we mean with the twin transition, is that we need to be a couple of this. So we of course want to develop further and solve many of the more problems we sit with as humanity. But we need to do that without the expense of natural resources and the effect that has on people and planets. So this is what we mean with the twin transition. Yeah, and I can add on that that we, especially when I got my enlightenment on sustainability, I was starting to think about this from information management point of view, because it seemed to be so that not always the ESG data that is on the market, both the public data and data from the corporations is not always very viable. And many of these problems that we have with ESG data is something that is related to overall information management, how we get reliable, verifiable data from the sources that we need. Of course, there is a way of pushing that from regulation, but also one part of the exploration that we did was based on the latest technology on the information management to get better view on how the payments are run and what kind of information we can get out of that. And I can continue with some really short presentations who we were in the case. And I can start with my employer, SEB, which is a North European Bank coming from Sweden and has been expanding the business cases to a multitude of countries. We have home markets in Nordics and Baltics, including also UK and Germany. And then we have a multitude of other countries available. We are mostly entrepreneurial bank, meaning that we have a lot of large corporations on the home countries that we support also in these international sites that we are having. But of course in Sweden and in Baltics, we have also private individuals and small enterprises. And then sustainability has been a big thing for us in SEB. And I have a basic slide about that also, that because now the corporations, especially in the Nordics, are really keen on putting stakes on the sustainability because they have realized that this is actually a big thing for the customers. Customers are ranking their suppliers and places where they are buying goods by getting really transparent information on how the goods and services are produced. And this is also a big thing for the investor and employee attraction so that you should be able to show that how you are actually moving into this transformation of sustainability. If you are not yet there, you have to be able to show out transparently where you are going because that is a big thing for creating people involved, the talents from the market as employees and also investment money into your company. And technological advancement is the key thing and message on our presentation overall. That's the matter that you just have to apply to get the sustainability reporting, sustainability controls and KPIs available. And that is also coming from the regulator point of view. So this is a circle that goes round so that we get more and more interest from the companies and they are needing advice also from the banks how to make the financial solutions available with sustainable solutions. And that is something that we are investing heavily as well in the bank. I will not go through all the details here because we want to save some time for the actual insights of the proof of concept but it's really a big thing for us to be able to support customers when they are doing this kind of sustainability transformation. And that has a very long history in SAP already. So we started 1995 when the first employee for the sustainability was hired and then you can see we have been a forerunner in the Northern European perspective in multitude of new stuff available on green financing. But this is not only the way that we would like to continue, we would like to look into the actual transactions as well. Our customers are doing their actual business transactions and how the financial transactions like payments, receivables, and supply chain financing and trade finance are linked into these sustainability goals. And financing solutions are something that is needed but also we should be able to help our customers to understand what they are playing with in their business transactions because there could be when you start analyzing the transactions and more real time we can go there better that should be. But that is something that we are going and we will go into insights as well later on. And the customer that was co-creating together with us is a customer from Gothenburg from Sweden and this is a trading company. So Eggman Group is a family owned company, not that big but they are really global and they run a business where they are buying and selling goods being a trader there in between. So really good case for us in the experiment because they really have to be aware from whom they are buying what kind of goods and services they are buying and again what kind of customers they have where they are selling that set of goods and services. How that is treated and what kind of possible dual use cases there are for the goods. So they are like said small really old company as well but they act really globally and the goods that they are trading that's also really interesting industry because that is something that we are really aware of a multitude of challenges on all of that paper and packaging and the bioenergy as a solution for fossil fuel solutions in the energy side. So this is really interesting company and that's why it was really good to evaluate the case together with them. And they are global like said they have dealt with the whole global view with three hubs and they are able to operate with customers and suppliers all over the world. So please Karina continue with the planet. Who are you and what are you doing? Yes, I am one of the co-founders of Planathon. We're quite a young firm we've been around since 2018 and we are on a mission towards the planet's positive future and Planathon is actually a play of words. It's a marathon for the planet. So that's what we do on a daily basis and we base everything we do on scientific insights and with scientific insights we mean social ecological insights. So we work with our system scientists for instance we are a partner with Stockholm Mercilien Center which is really a good progressive firm or scientific institution for this social ecological data and research. This is one of the models we use it's called the Donut Economics that I can highly recommend if you haven't seen it before. It has a social floor in the middle which we need to fulfill for humanity which is food, water, equality, education and such and then it has an ecological ceiling that we need to stay within or beneath which has all the planetary boundaries that has been developed by the SRC the Stockholm Mercilien Center which has them air, land biodiversity, water and all of those. Secondly we work with data first so we just like Harry said we work with data and data analysis from a social ecological standpoint to understand the underlying facts and needs and both these both the scientific and the data we use to help development. So we work we're a primarily business to business actor so we work with other corporations in order to guide their development with these two foundations and that could be management teams or business developers within the company and it's also investors that want to direct their money to where the best impact lies. So next slide I only have one other slide we do this we have created a planet-centric business framework to support this. So the first bit is as I said the research that guides what these companies should do and then we focus on future and strategy we have a scenario offering on the future side where we actually create future scenarios so you can direct your mission and efforts towards the preferred scenario you want to develop and we set strategies and help put those in place with the corporations and then we activate so we activate within the company to get it out to the full group within the company or in the industry that they're active or their partners etc. So that's a plan upon. Let's dig into the case. So together SSEB, Planathon and Jetsman we set out to see how might we use payment transaction data or business to business payment transaction data to guide sustainable business development. So that was our hypothesis or our guiding question. So let's share some of the results. Harry you can start please. Thank you very much Karina and the case like said is and was focusing on business to business transactions, the business to business payments and that is something that of course we have been working now heavily in SSEB that we can have a global view for the customer on the payments which we of course advise commonly with the actual payments data but now we wanted to add a view and dimension of the sustainability into those transactions and that would mean that when the customers are selling their payment transactions they are not actually giving us the details that we would like to have meaning that the counterparty information is only with names. We do not know the exact information of the invoices paid. We know only invoice numbers or reference numbers that the payer or debtor is giving for the creditor and that meant that we had to have also access to customer data and making that data lake together with customer data. Of course we had to define what kind of data we need to fulfill the requirements to get the ESG dimension available where of course planet almost helping us and the hypothesis that like Karina said was that we could make a helping hand for the corporations by making good visualization and awareness of this data later on. Let's go back into that when we show some screens to you. Of course this was a agile proof of concept so it was done, the actual case was done in couple of months. We started though before the summer holiday season last year but the actual work was done after that and that was really good and rapid experiment and I can only say good things about planeton because they are really expert on making this kind of challenging work in small and short time available getting the best insights from the people that are working both at the bank as an incumbent bank and also from the customers so that was really good collaboration by all the parties and you can go on please Karina on the other side. Yes thank you what we also wanted to see is the use of the actual data like Karina said how can we connect the social ecological data sets with the payments and it showed that it's really possible to use such a data driven approach and use the latest information technology tools and visualization tools in order to guide the company in this case F-Mon to take decisions and also that even if there's a lot of things that needs to happen as you probably all know everything is not already here but there are both facts models and tools that can be utilized already today to make such a risk opportunity map for the client so it is possible to actually start which was one of the things we wanted to show Yeah that is a good case that we are now of course investigating on both sides. We ended up the case in mid December last year by press release that was also part of the presentation in the event in invitation and now we have been doing a lot of analysis at the transaction services of SCB how to continue the case not only with the payments data but also in the other transactional data like said financing the invoices trade finance as well how we can make this further available as a good addition for the long lasting financing solutions that we have been implementing already a multitude of decades like I showed in the earlier slide so this is something that we are now exploring and of course looking into different solutions internally and externally how to go further but let's go into the actual visualizations that was created for 8 months from the data so please continue Karina Yes this first view is sorry this first view is a map view so what we can see here is some ecological data sets that have been put on top of a map for instance here we can see forest integrity which was really important for this type of client since they are trading with paper and pulp products so the forest is one of the major effects they have on the ecological standpoint but we could also add there are several data sets that could be applied like this so we also have biodiversity and climate as two other views for this view and we also have on the left hand side a dashboard that shows specific scientific insight guiding this type of client so it could be policy related or it could be scientifically related into both opportunities and risks that emerge through the latest scientific insights and we also the kind of information or data that we mapped from the payment transactions are the counterparties within the actual transaction and also the countries involved in this so this is a trading company so which companies were involved in the transaction and based out of that we also did country and counterparty insights and lastly we looked at the actual product being traded so we used the invoicing data from the client and mapped that to the payment data that in turn was mapped to social ecological data sets and models to understand all three aspects so both the country the counterparty and the actual product so what we can see also yeah what we can also see on this screen a bit smaller are the actual transaction so the sets we see here are both the transactions but we also see the goods that are flowing that was purchased through the financial transaction through these countries one of the findings that you can see already in this couple of example cases that the payment flow will not always go with the same routes that the actual goods are going because the counterparties in payments could be different than the actual seller so the debtor and creditor are not always the same guys like the buyer or seller are in the case that is there with Italy it seems that Andrea has been doing some cases with Ekman no that was a joke but in that case that was really similar but in the other transaction that is as an example there it's totally different view on the payment delivery than the goods delivery is and that's good to remember that when we track the transactions the business transaction and financial transaction are not always the same so there is a mismatch in the in the links and that means that you have to be quite cautious on making conclusions out of the different flows that are there on business and financial side please go on Karina question there this is Tom Klein this map here at a first level or first approximation you were assuming hey from the country that this is coming from then I have kind of a source and then I can kind of bring it to this map here right yeah but and I just to add to that the actual source or the seller in this case was in Malaysia but the actual sourcing of the goods was in Indonesia in this case which is also important like how we pointed out because especially from like in ecological and the social standpoint it is really crucial to know what where are we sourcing our war products so it could be a difference in the country social and ecological effects depending on if it's in Malaysia or Indonesia even so the currency one strictly connect to supply chain and a financial flow which is also typical if you think in documentary credits you see it often happens to have a source of the goods in one place and a financial transaction being to be treated from countries good so you're tracking both physical as well as a financial flow here beautiful yeah okay good thank you for sharing and that is one of the key elements in my personal goals for making this available how we could from business transaction how we can deep dive into all the related financial transactions but usually one trade is having a multitude of payments it could have a letter of credit it could have a guarantee how we can find out all the financial transactions that are related into one single business transaction and vice versa can we deep from payment or from letter of credit into what actually is behind it what kind of sellers and buyers are there and then deeper into supply chain as well buyers buyers and customers customers and and what kind of components the actual goods are doing are composed of so that we have to understand quite deeply and this will require really accurate and detailed information sharing and that's one of the insights which we will come back later on in the presentation great thanks good please go on Karina yes a second view is the graph view and what we've done here is to analyze the transaction flows with a knowledge graph so here we've used another technology to look at these transactions and that is of course relevant from a cash flow perspective to see the flow of transactions but also that is really highly interesting I think from a supply and trade perspective there are some interesting connections I think between the distributed ledger that sort of holds the trust for the transaction and a knowledge graph that shows like the context and how these relations are actually interlinked within within the chain of events in this case so this is a second view and also here we see a counterpartive view we have the same for a country view and the actual goods so these smaller like subsets of information with both the planetary and the social perspective of that counterparty and that is definitely something that is again my interest how to make the data available for information management or knowledge management and even for the wisdom like the data hierarchy is saying so the data can be like a pollution if you have it too much you cannot understand it how to make that available for both human and computer understandable way and knowledge graphs are so cool you can do whatever you want with those when you have the semantic model behind it the ontology behind it so that you can combine different components in an understandable way you can put also the computer talk the same language that we talk when we post questions to Google for example it's also actually using knowledge graphs there behind and this is a good way of really quick visualization and understanding the flow instead of normal way that we have in some other business intelligence tools the knowledge graphs are giving opportunity to make good analysis in a really fast manner and that was really good to have it available by Planeton in this case as well so that we can analyze the big amount of data in an understandable way and have it as a basis for sustainability dimension as well alright but let's go into the insights and we have gathered couple of those for further discussion when we are coming into the end of presentation but from the SCB point of view I have collected couple of key insights into this and having the payment data available that is good because it's a really good basement for business trend as a business indicator like said we are using already payments data for having advisory with our customers but now we would like to have that also with the dimension of sustainability available but like said we cannot do that by ourselves only if we want to understand the business transaction behind the final transaction we have to combine bank data into the customer data so that we get total data set which is a combination of payment data and business data for example from invoice or a bill of trading or other kind of information that is giving us facts from the business transaction and then we put that common data set into the analysis from external and common data sources that are there for ESG and then having capacity via knowledge grabs also to use machine learning in that analysis so that we can use systems as well and how to make this available it's really big challenge for the corporations to share invoice data or business related data and that's why we have to solve an issue of secure corporate data sharing it could be blockchain it could be some other technologies that are available there like W3C news standards for distributed IDs and verifiable credentials how to make that available so that the corporates can use over in their own data so that they can share with the consents that digital consents that this is my data that can be used by this specific bank only for this specific purpose only and nothing else and that's really critical to get that available on on good manner and then the payments they are still historical transactions they can be two weeks, one month three months later than the actual business transaction has happened and that's why we were also discussing a lot with the pilot customer here what kind of implications we could get if we have trade which is a little bit closer in in time wise with the business transaction and they also wanted to have a simulation for the future transactions and that was something that we implemented together with Planeton in couple of last weeks so that there could be also opportunity to feed in some business transaction details for candidates for counter parties so that then we can use the same tool for analyzing what kind of risks there might be when it comes to the ESG when it comes to these business transactions on future and then the bank's role, should it be a bank making this kind of analysis, should it be directly Planeton making this kind of analysis, of course there are a multitude of options having this but we still think that the payments data and transactional data is good basis for making the dimension of just an ability also available so that we can get some kind of holistic view especially when the customer is using all of these components and transactions with us having payments, having great finance instruments even maybe having supply chain finance or receivable purchase then we have a quite good view on customer business transactions as well and that gives an opportunity to help out with the financial green financing solutions to make the transformation of the customer business models to more sustainable like we started in the beginning of the presentation and then of course we as a bank have a really good view on and really hard regulation how we are doing our business when it comes to sustainability so we need to know the EU taxonomy, we need to know how to make that available and how to use that in our own analysis when we analyze the due diligence of our customers so that could be used also in a positive manner to make the transactions available for the customers but then we have large corporations that are multinational and one single bank cannot serve them globally and then we come into the solution where we are the problem where we should be able to share as well the customers other banks transactions how that could be happening in our case with Ekman we are serving only one third of their payments then the other banks are doing the rest how then they could get a holistic view could we then start using open finance, open banking can we buy the customer consent, read-in also other banks transactions so that is a good set of questions as well so that we are analyzing now in the further exploration of new solutions but you can continue Karina on Planeton Insights as well. Yes and the first insight is of course the ability to use these transactions which are transactions that are the heart of these companies because if we can then connect that to for instance the donut model with social and ecological data sets we are able to look at their current of course current but their operations of the company in real time basically so we are able to look at what they are doing as soon as they do those transactions and not like have the quarterly reporting of sustainability where you have to go through all your systems but you can have a more near real time view of your current actions and how that is really going through a flow of social ecological hotspots or tipping points or areas where you should be more cautious so that is the first insight that it is possible which is a really good insight and of course it is the ability to use the type of technology and analysis and insights that we did perform in this experiment. We have had this knowledge graph for quite a while in Planeton with the social ecological data sets and also as Harry said we have performed a lot of graph algorithms on top of our graph but it's all these cases when you can connect it to real company development that makes it that makes it worth for decision making but I think that is something that is really an insight that it is possible to use that connected data and to act on that and maybe last but definitely not least it is the counter parties in this experiment that made it happen so you need to have frontrunners like FED and the F1 in this case that are willing to start testing and experimenting on maybe not fully available standards are not in place everything is not, we don't know everything but we need to start with what we have because we need to share that thought I think being on this call together with us but we really need to do an act on sustainability for both our sake and the planet so it's great to see frontrunners like and on this case it was a real pleasure to work with you guys that was quite interesting as well that we run all of this stuff digitally because it was the pandemic ongoing we had really a little bit more relaxed time last autumn just before the Omicron burst it out so we could have a final meeting all together in Gothenburg and that was really fun because it was a middle of November and after that a couple of weeks after that it wasn't any more possible to travel at least from Finland to Sweden of course there was some version traveling but anyway it was really fun to see as well face to face all the players in the same room after the actual work done and then we had a really good session analyzing the final results together and that was really lucky that we were able to do that physically in the mid-November last year so that was practically the presentation and we are available here for 15 minutes for further questions and discussions I see that there are some chat pointers as well but please go on with the questions and discussions This is awesome Hadi and glad to you know if you remember when we first started talking about the solution a while ago in time now it's kind of more shaped up so I can understand the value of this this project and it looks really really interesting one thing I wanted to ask both of you Hadi and Karina this is DLT space we're talking about DLT we're talking about blockchain how do you see the role played by distributed ledger technology in fostering this kind of solutions and namely also bringing the picture new technologies such as CBDC and similar so this is what we love to have your insights into how do you see them playing in connection with what you have been baking on? Yeah of course this could be a long answer even couple of hours if we had time but let's start with traceability Yeah not talking yet about crypto currencies and all of that stuff but talking about the traceability of the supply chain I think that there is an opportunity and I see I know that there are already solutions following up for different and specific goods already what is the actual supply chain so the transparency would be available meaning also factual data on who is the deliverer who is the supplier where they are coming from what kind of methods they are using for delivering the supplies on this level so I see there is an opportunity to use DLT or blockchain technology to get that atomic view on who is the actual counterparty and then when it comes to other part of the digital solutions with the blockchain of course 3.0 decentralized finance there we have opportunity to link the financial transaction closely into the business transaction meaning that the smart contracts and that kind of programmability could be reached by these technologies of course you can always argue that it's available as well with the authority central based databases and you can do also programmability with the other tools available there but this is now something that is really well evolving and we are following that also really closely can we get more verifiable data available from this kind of technological overview so I would say that there is an point to use that technology as well in this respect managing the supply chain also having that available for making the actual business transaction a financial transaction together by decentralized finance type of tools Can I just add a I just want to add a perspective to it I totally agree with you Harry and I also see it as sort of different data layers so the ledger is like the core of the immutability and the trust and the transaction of such but I do think that like a knowledge graph and the ability to analyze massive amounts of data and connect them like the way you do in a knowledge graph which I think the distributed ledger and the knowledge graph would really merge at some point but currently I think they could complement each other until they merge so I think the social ecological data and the payment data could be in both but the analysis to be on top with the knowledge graph also had to have the smart contract in the flow to actually release goods or transport so there are a lot of those similarities I think from like a supply chain perspective I just want to add that This could be a widen let's say concept of know your customer you'll know your business Well you see ESG and SDG are supposed to replace this to form a concept being quite old so expending the normal sleep for the good sake of the business so that's maybe you're right that's why distributed ledger technology will play a major role I'll leave it on to the attendance to make more questions rapidly to both of you and tell me if you have some other questions to ask I'll give it a few seconds here if not I do have a question actually Andrea Okay thanks Harri and Karina for sharing your story here this is really fun interesting stuff and a great basis going forward here so the question is from Ekman's perspective who was the kind of the leader what group was the leader at Ekman was kind of looking at this and overall was a procurement was it finance was it the operational folks who wasn't there I mean procurement you would usually get involved in all of these kind of things that would have an interest in contracts that have some form of sustainability metrics in there so I'll look to hear what you guys saw with Ekman where it came from Yeah this is a good question and in Ekman case it was compliance that is responsible for the analytics of sustainability on the business so they do the work on the facts that they have with the tools that they are using and they are really good in that so they do really accurate work and one of the key goals from their perspective was that can we find something that gives them more verifiable data of the counterparties and goods and the dual use and all that socio-ecological viewpoint so not only the environmental point but also the social and governance part of the transactions and that is also a challenge that how the whole organization could be part of the evaluation and that's the important thing that this kind of visualization of the data that we did is something that could be used all over the cooperation so that everyone understands the opportunities and risks when it comes to sustainability and not only one part of the organization so that it's a practically like I showed the circle in the beginning it's really important that every single person in the organization understands why this is so important, why this is important because the customers are now using that as a selection criteria, criteria and that means that the sustainability things must be in a good order and this is totally different in different companies. Last summer I ran a round table together with five, six customers regarding the information management and sustainability management and it is like you asked really fragmented solutions so there is no one size fits all, it can be within the business lines, it can be even treasury having some sustainability because of the reporting responsibilities and it could be compliance so it's really scattered in different organizations in different manner and I do not know which is the best way of working in this but the eggman way of having compliance is definitely a good way of working in this respect. Good, good, thanks for sharing. I see a question here in our list here, Andrea I'll tear it up here from Hi Han, what is the role? Hi Han, yes, my friend I Han from Turkey is asking, what is the role SWIFT data in your twin transition? What is the role SWIFT data? Okay, yeah, we actually what we analyzed in this case was international payments and international payments are run through SWIFT network but the data that we were using was coming from our data lake. Our data lake for payments is built up with the ISO 2002 standard so we have done and use that as a basement so that we follow up the latest financial services standard and luckily now a couple of years ago we decided by us owners that the payments domain will move into ISO 2002 totally in international payments by 2025 so the standard that we are using internally in our data lake is the same that will be used also in international payments that is really good question because there is other ways of working in this matter as well but now the international payments are run with SWIFT network and that's the basement for the data source in that manner, yes. You mentioned a very interesting argument it would take weeks to dig that out how can you see, I mean how do you see how the Karina of course role of ISO 2002 is on everybody's list nowadays because of the migration going on you see how does this fit what role to play in the solution in the future suppose that this standard is going to be adopted globally. Yeah I have my long history with ISO 2002 personally so I have been in the registration management group I have been leading even the payments domain standards evaluation group for three years and also in market practice group leadership it was 2016 to 2019 so just before the market practice release will be based on that 2019 versions so that was really interesting journey overall and I'm really keen on standards and now when we are moving into APIs the standard approach is not that much anymore appreciated like it was in the market infrastructure by SWIFT and other market infrastructures and payments but that's totally okay and it's the development where we are going because the API world is moving into faster implementations and faster integrations with the different partners and different data sources of the market but the standard basement with the data model and business model and even semantic model of ISO 2002 is some good investment for running analysis of the transactions so if we talk about data fields and we talk about them with the same taxonomy using same words and same names for the actual abstracts that's the key element on understanding the data in different sources so that makes the bank data and customer data and ESG data work together and that's one of the key problems in ESG data that the standards are many and the regulations are many as well in different parts of the world and the taxonomies are not similar in different parts of the world and that makes the ESG data quality not the best possible we have now quite good quality in financial data thanks to the standardization that have been exercised for 15 years but let's see how we can do that combination in a better manner and that's why the information management tools are really critical to make a holistic view on the data so that we can understand that together with machine learning computers sorry for the long answer there again sorry this is an exhaustive one if you remember by the way how the any speech counts at the right time one week one year ago actually you were here all along detailing what can we understand from that do we understand our data this is like an intervention that we had one year ago so it's about Jason and how CDOTs can play a role in doing this so it's more than welcome asking about SWIFT disappearing there was a rumor exactly today by Mastercard CEO SWIFT will not anymore exist but let's see I'm pretty sure that it will exist but definitely more solutions and dynamic solutions I need it as well so that we can run different kind of standards available there and also using the new technology and the good manner but Karina you have something to say as well I just had another reflection and that is also the threats or the development needed for a healthy planet for both people and the planet itself also needs a lot of collaboration so I think these tools can also be used as a starting point for a conversation both within an industry but also across industries as I think also the ledger and like a knowledge graph and for instance if like Harry said if a bank should be the one hosting such a solution they could also sit with benchmarks within an industry so since they sit with similar transactions so I think everybody that sits like in the middle of these transactions be it your product development your ERP vendors your ledgers everybody has the ability to connect and to actually share the information across industry which I think from a social ecological standpoint is well really needed so I really welcome anybody with that type of spider with like transactions everywhere to actually be part of this collaborative effort towards a healthy planet yeah it's a multi-layered collaborative approach if you think so it's not only a data points but also technology points mentioned knowledge graph the ideal interaction between DLTs machine learning, federated learning all these new concepts being tied up all together delivering a harmonized solution this is a big big winning choice for the future yes alongside with standardization of course but that could also bring a standardization or a joint view I think yeah I think also technology can contribute to the achievement of standardization softened technology that leads those topics to be achieved it's in both sides Tom would you like to have anything else on your side any other question from the attendants oh you're on mute Tom thank you I had zoom tell me also that Karina thank you do you have a question from Gustavo do you think that ML and AR worth it and I think the question is probably more getting to how deep of analytics do you believe are needed in order of 40 to tease out the sustainability metrics from the payments data you know is it simple analysis and reporting or you got to go a little bit deeper on that I think it holds great opportunities I think you can really analyze similarities centralities you can take the shortest path between one actor and another actor just by doing simple algorithms especially we use them on top of graphs so there are specific graph algorithms that you can run on your actual graph data and then you can actually tie that back into the graph so it makes it even more intelligent I think it holds great opportunities in analyzing larger amounts of data yes and one of my dreams is that I've been focusing lately mostly on trade finance and digitalization of that because now it's run on paper and PDF pictures of paper if we can transform that into structured data and information about these kind of tools available that is totally new world for steering the businesses in the right direction so that we can analyze that better manner and also be part of the transformation overall so that help out the customers better way than now when everything is on paper and no one is actually using that data in that manner that could be used when the structured data would be available it's gradually moving into that direction and it's totally in different world than the payments data nowadays is available yeah so this is a huge giant gigantic leap forward we are engaged in all together how do you think well it's hard to convince you see in a digital database economy how will trade finance supply chain finance stop on paper you cannot extract data directly from paper you have to go digital for doing that so that's the step the big mindset change in mindset that will leave you see the industry as a whole to step into this new world exactly it's wonderful so there are more I'm thinking Andrea we can take maybe the questions and people can share with Harry as well as Karina any additional questions in the interest since we're at the top of the hour here it's a good time I see a few questions made put those in emails fire them off to those guys and I assume you guys were open to answer any additional questions that come up afterwards right yes wonderful Harry Karina that was a great speech and I thank you so much for being with us today it was a great one so continuation to the last two speech Harry and I thank a lot for being with us today it was great and you see we're going to be back with another meeting in two weeks time tell me you're gonna leave that one most probably I will leave that one you can join us trade waltz we'll be presenting that international trading consortium based in Japan so our time will be a little bit different it won't be a conducive for those of you in Europe it'll be early morning Japan late in the evening US time so but we will record it and it'll be available for all to listen to in the future so we'll see each other everybody on the 16th or the 17th of June or on the recording back to you Andrea wonderful thanks for being with us and see you soon again Karina Harry thank you so much and see you soon again thank you so much bye bye