 Well, hello everybody and my name's Doug Belchow. We're still waiting for Steve Rieger and Laura Hilliger to join us I'm slightly ill. I have to say I've been in bed all weekend, but Thankfully this webinar is being run by Steve Rieger of Educators Co-op So just while we're waiting for them to join us just a very quick overview of what you can expect today First of all, what the plan for this entire bit of workshop this entire kind of webinar Is that you can get up to speed on how to design your own open badges Website you're on platform and you can get started straight away by thinking about some of the design considerations that we at we are open co-op and Steve and Amy and Jared and others at Educators Co-op have started to think about and got involved with their clients So you might be entirely new to open badges. This might be something that you're pretty familiar with But either way, we hope that you'll leave this pretty short webinar. We're only going to keep it to about half an hour We hope that you leave this webinar with some questions, but also with some answers We hope that you leave here knowing some kind of design considerations about what it is that's going to be Going to be good for you to get started with when you're thinking about budging systems So Steve has joined us. Hi Steve. Do you want to just introduce yourself and then we'll see if Laura can join us too Okay, great. Good morning. Well for me Here with educators cooperative We are working with school districts here in the United States and been working in the badging world here for about five years now Helping districts put together their websites and put together resources to use in the real world with teachers and Students so we're going to share some lessons learned from some of our mistakes and hopefully some time Excellent. Okay. So just to buy a bit of context and just buy a bit of background. We'll give law another couple of minutes We so there's a few of us over here in the UK that have joined together to create a co-op I should say Europe laws laws based in Germany a cooperative for those who don't know is people who joined together without a particular hierarchy usually and thinking about How they can come together in solidarity to solve some of the world's problems so we were delighted when we came across educators co-op who are out of California and One of the principles of international cooperation is that you work closely with other corpse So that's what we're doing here. One of the reasons we can get started So quickly with this webinar series is that educators co-op have a wealth of experience in using badges in the US And we do in Europe. So joining forces seems like a no printer to us Laura's just joined us absolutely right on cue. Hi Laura. How you doing? Hi Hello. Hi everyone. Hi Laura. How you doing? Good. How are you? Very good So Laura, I was just about to introduce you and hope that you would in that you would join us halfway through my introduction Do you want to do the honors for yourself to introduce yourself? No, I want you to introduce me of course. No, you're choosing yourself Okay. Hi everyone. I'm Laura Hilliger I am as is Doug a founding member of the we are open co-op And I do a lot of work around Education media the web and of course anything that has to do with participation and community And I do quite a bit of work with cream piece.org and I am a former mausoleum Excellent. Thanks, Laura. Now. My understanding is that so we're using YouTube live and last time we used YouTube live It's got long story short. We didn't use the Google Hangouts feature of it So my understanding having done Google Hangout stuff before Google Hangouts on there any questions that you ask those people are watching If you ask a question, then it should pop up for us within this Google Hangout area So if someone wants to test that out now just by asking a question that they legitimately have that they've come along with Or just a question like hey, how's everyone doing? That's great And we'll see if that works because we do want to be responsive to your questions We've got some stuff that we want to go through and Steve's prepared some some great stuff But also we want to make sure that we're responding to any comments that you have in as real-time as we possibly can So if you've got a question stick it in there the chat now and we'll see if it works With that while that's happening Steve. I think you should have the option to Screen share because I know you've got something prepared. So if you want to get that set up and we'll see how this works All right. So in theory you should see a little Bar graph you guys see a little image, right? You guys are ready to go. Yeah. Yeah, go for okay So as Doug mentioned, we're a co-op here in the United States and Doug's co-op over there in Europe and one of our goals is to bring open tools and open resources to the table give people options and In working with school districts here in the United States There are a number of badging systems that are starting to emerge on the market So there are people selling options to districts to start to use badging sites with teachers and students What we've been doing this last couple of years is helping districts build their own using open source tools and That's not instead of it's just an option So we would like to have districts be aware that there are many different ways to go toward a badging system So over here on this bar graph You'll see on the right a very simple survey What are you guys looking for in a badging kind of site or platform prioritize if you will? And so we had some people look at different platforms on summer vendor based some are homegrown and had them kind of Prioritized these are kind of the top three pieces of feedback That the vast majority of people want something that's easy to navigate Easy to submit and that everything they need is right there in the website When people linked off the website, let's say they were going to go watch a video or they had to go download a PDF That was okay. If it was only a short-term Takeaway when we asked people what they were looking for in a badging website They typically wanted it to be a self-contained environment or they wanted it something to be If anything a pop-up window, but not a link away. It seemed that the people we interact interacted with Preferred this concept that they were in the website That they were anchored in some way now that was a that was a that was kind of an insight for us Based on some earlier designs. We thought people wanted it to be more of a launching platform if you go to the badgy website and And then you would it would take you to places and that actually didn't play out When we when we survey people the easy to navigate easy to submit that seems intuitive that seemed like it made sense. So today's Webinar here what we're here to present are some kind of visual representations of this feedback And so kind of boiling it down based on the survey and based on some work with real users in the real world These kind of four steps. So whether you're shopping whether you're thinking I want a badging platform I want one for my staff or maybe for my company or for my students or families These would be four things to be looking for and if you want to build your own There are a number of open source tools you could use and same kind of concept So I'll be walking through these real quickly with the real world website But essentially that that the website itself or the badging platform should have some kind of call to action I mean this seems somewhat obvious That if you're on the badging website, that means you probably are there to earn something or you're aware of the site That's how you got to it in the first place But what we have found is that some badging websites have a passive Database like tone where people are they show up and they're supposed to search or browse And that's fine if the person already knows what they're looking for or they already know how to use a badging website so if you're trying to onboard people it has to Give them a call to pick a link log in set up a profile Create an account Some kind of something that makes them engage with the website a passive database When our users tried those that were designed that way they tend to kind of sit there and look and That sounds good in the short term But what we observed is over time they just engaged and they left and they started browsing other places So some kind of called action the early on I to interrupt Steve. I was just gonna ask So have you have you got a preferred call to action? So the user comes to the website you've you've taken ages to design this perfect website It's pretty easy to set up the badging thing But you've spent really long time on their kind of user experience. Have you come across any kind of? particular words any kind of Prompts which really get people in there or you just saying that basically anything which is verb-based anything which tells them to Do something is good That's a great question and we didn't We didn't ask the specific what is the call to action that was the most engaging that would be a next survey for us to do So I could I could I could guess But based on the data that we gathered it was simply something that engaged It engaged them to do a thing So to put it bluntly they looked across a range of websites some of them required them as simple as to create a profile and And to log in and so that got them engaged in the website So that in itself was an engaging act for some others It was more of a step-by-step do this do that and they followed the directions, so I'm not sure what the exact Triggers are that are best, but that would be a great thing for us to look into next Maybe we can do that and come back in another month or two and say this is what we found works the best We just found that when it was a passive website There are a couple of open source and not to you know This isn't about one vendor or one platform being better than the other. It's just simply what we saw used When we ran it by people and when those websites that were a hundred percent open that were just browsable Surf around find what's interesting People tend to get to get less engaged or they they took longer or often they just left they just kind of browsed and left They didn't actually engage and start a badge So I don't have a I don't have a specific trigger Except that they have to do a thing they have to type a word they have to click a button They have to do it. They have to engage with the site early. Just give me given that we've got Laura here Who's an expert on community engagement and not to put you on the spot Laura But have you seen in in your work might not be badge related specifically Have you found any particular cause to actions that really engage people or does it very much depend on context? Yeah, it very much depends on context and it's an interesting question and one that we're looking at Quite a bit right now with the green piece dot org project There are different motivations that drive people to action and so it really depends on what exactly you want people to do and That in turn influences how you would motivate them to do that specific thing So with a badge platform if for example, you want people to create their first badge Then the call to action is going to be need to be something that is like the first step in creating that Badge and also relating whatever it is that are creating to them personally So yeah, it's very context specific and particularly with badges I think it would relate pretty heavily to The types of things that you're trying to badge So the types of skills and competencies that your badging platform is or your your ecosystem of badges is looking at So I'll keep rolling then good question So the call to action be step one and it sounds like context specific and Laura to jump on that thought Make it personal that also stood out to me as something that you just said that also seemed to resonate With the people we were interacted with They had to engage with the website in a way that made sense to them quickly And I mean minutes by quickly. I don't mean seconds But you know the mouse only lingers for so long that'll be our tagline This the second kind of lesson learned or Observation if you want to call it that Was this idea of purposeful design and that seems kind of kind of obvious but in the badging website world There are a lot of different perspectives, and I'm sure both of you could speak to this about what purposeful means. I think in the badging framework Purposeful means everything on the screen has purpose It seemed to us that the prettier the site did not matter the more functional the site seemed to matter so There were many sites that we looked at that had designs and art and Context and color palettes and that those are all very interesting and engaging But they didn't necessarily move people into the badging experience So I'll show you a non-example that we made then I'll show you an example so let me see if I can switch this out real fast to the right Are you seeing my set you're seeing my website correct? I'm not sure what you're seeing. Yeah. Yeah, we can see Cajon Bali This this would be a non-example This would be this was what something we built quite a few years ago and in our feedback at the time from the users in this district Was they wanted all the information on one screen? And so you will see a very text text heavy environment. You'll see a very very basic Web design. You'll see a handful of pictures. You'll see some hyperlinks this was Based on user feedback what they wanted they wanted everything over explained And they wanted all the pieces of the puzzle laid out And so we tested this with people we ran it by people we had them look at it It was very linear one two three four five all the way to the end So on the left-hand side is the process how to get started so very very linear design and Then in the end they're supposed to submit they did not have to use these resources But all the resources were here and again all these resources were laid out based on user feedback They identified that they wanted all these pieces and all these screens shots This was quite a bit of field testing In the end all that field testing Did not you End in high utilization rates. It did not actually The very people who helped design it I didn't particularly like it Steve that's really interesting, isn't it? So are you saying that you need to be in some way quite opinionated and come in with a I mean, I guess you you guys have got expertise around the UX UI or websites You know what kind of works from a badging point of view so I'm talking with their consultants had on here But there's there's an extent to which you need to Educate the clients like people don't know what they don't know So pushing back perhaps against what they think they want Towards something which you know is going to actually work better scaffolding people's attention Making things very clean and clear on the first look that kind of thing Yeah, I think that's right And I think that's what the vendors if you want to call them that but if you look on the market as to who's out there Doing interesting work in badging platforms, you know, there's a lot of time energy and thought that goes into that work There's a reason why they've ended up with the look they've ended up with and so I think if you're going to custom build You don't start from scratch. You don't get people around the table with a With chart paper And you don't say okay, let's talk about all the stuff that you wish you had on the page because when you do you'll end up with With too much Um, I think it's better if you are going to custom build or even take someone else's that you have some kind of wireframe that you have some kind of basic layout design Um, and I can show you how we went from here and then we can jump to To here and you just automatically feel different as soon as you go from This look welcome. Here's a video. Watch this video. Here's some text. Here's some context information. That's that First impression and this is that this is this first impression So so I think I think there's a certain visual layout, but there's also a functional layout concept I think if you have a wireframe that makes a lot of sense Um Then you can bring it to the table and save people a lot of time people can then populate what they want within the modules But I think that idea of design with purpose isn't It isn't always the idea of sitting around the table asking people what they think I think it's often easier to ask people Given this structure. What pieces do you see that would be most important to you? Any feedback or thoughts from the two of you your experiences in that box Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think um, I think there is It is a very important step to talk to the the users of the website and ask them what it is that they want But there's a there's a step between what they say they want what they think they want and actually Building it into the page and creating wireframes For that and I think that that step is really about the designers and developers Looking what people say they want and looking for sort of the the high level Um through lines between what different people say so there's really like a and an analyzing Function that has to happen before it lands on the page Um, because putting everything all on the page in the way that that you guys did in the first example Which I would guess is a relatively old example. You can correct me if I'm wrong Yeah, yeah Yeah, um, so I think I mean I think that in the early days of the web That was kind of like the the web design solution will just do everything at once and then everybody has all of the information and and nowadays um You know people people leave so quickly That they they really need some streamlined information to To be able to decide what they want to do and actually move through the platform So I just think if you're uh, if you're thinking of getting a badging system, you're shopping or maybe you're thinking of building your own So the very first thing you want to do is like layout What is the call to action how we're going to hook people right away? Or if we're shopping we say does this platform hook us right away? And then the very second question is is this a layout That that kind of pulls me in is their purpose to the layout? Am I am I sucked into the deeper pages quickly? Can I just come in there steve on the call to action and the purposeful design? I think one of the problems I've certainly come across Over the last five years like yourself is that people go? Oh cool badges and they want a badging system, but they don't really know why And when you yourself who are the badge issuer or creating environment and which badges are issued If you don't really know why You want to issue badges. It's very difficult to give a call to action and to do the purposeful design. So although It takes a lot longer to get started And I know that there's agile development methodologies But all of those kinds of things start with the why there's a wonderful book and presentation by simon scenic He talks about start with why you need to be able to very quickly and easily explain Why the particular project that you're starting in this case badges is a good idea And you know who it's for etc. And any then have you really got a space in which you can design a purposeful website? Yeah, I think that is that's spot-on. I mean that's The lack of vision for why they're doing badging is why you get clunky starts, right? Because the building the website and laying things out is only as useful as the vision That you're trying to execute So we tend to work in educational spaces. We tend to work in k12 school districts and many of the badging initiatives that we're working on are More traditional professional development moved online And so their primary motivation is that it's more efficient Versus putting teachers in a classroom like setting for six hours. Can't we move some of that content online? And make it more efficient And that makes sense except that call to action Then leads people to say well, we should load all the resources they'll ever need onto the website Since we're replacing their ability to sit in a classroom and listen to a trainer So ironically That mission actually interferes with the design So their mission is to provide all the resources ever possible. So you wouldn't have to physically show up And then their design principle suffers because then they try to overload it So to the point about the call to action is is not only just like what are we trying to accomplish organizationally? But what is the what's the user experience? You know, what do we really want this person to feel and just just on that very quickly The interesting thing about that just to follow up what I said earlier and to build on what you've said is that people will Design systems are really badly or use commercial offerings poorly and then say oh badges don't work um As if You know All you have to do is just throw them at people And if they reject them because they don't know what this thing is or you design the system really badly Then it's the system itself that's at fault and you could substitute badges You know almost anything you want in for badges and people Think that it's not their particular way that they've designed it but actually the thing itself which is problematic Yeah, that's good I just I just wanted to propose a model that I've used over the years that I that I learned while I was working at mozilla um It's called story vision tech and the story is the why why are you building and a website or an interactive Anything really? And I think that when dug is talking about the the why of a badge platform Or or when you say that for a lot of k through 12 teachers or organizations It's really about the efficiency of of having content in a place that people can access all the time as opposed to happy to be in A classroom together. Um, I think that there's a story behind that That's not about efficiency, but rather about learning Um at a very high level and so if you can clarify the story then you can get to the vision of why What exactly do we need out of this platform? And then you can start talking about the tech so the the model is really the story Which is like the the meta philosophical why? Are we doing this and most of the times in in our field? It's really about learning and about empowering each other through education Um, and then the and then the vision is the why is badges? Why are badges the solution and and how does this platform help us? And then the and then the tech is actually the the development of that platform Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. Um And that kind of goes back to dug I don't know if you get a recap of our last webinar at the beginning of this because I came in just a little bit late, but um I think you're out on the principles of badging Well in that last webinar. So anybody listening who might want to Wrap around your vision that might be worthy to go back and check check some of that check some of that visioning language out Yeah, we haven't gone through like what our badges etc in this particular one because we're assuming a certain amount of knowledge And we're focusing on the design element. I'm also trying to keep them short. So apologies for interrupting you there steve to crack on Which which is the perfect segue to the economy of language So the idea here is that use exactly what needs to be used exactly what it needs to be used and um Every person has their own Style when it comes to economy of language, but of course with web design But really badged design and in theory is a more efficient or a focused or a very clean competency based mastery based proficiency based way of thinking so If you're earning a badge, there's a certain outcome whether you design it or the person putting the badges Together has designed it, but the expectations are there the resources are there the Timeline is there so the language should be around the purpose of the design So again going back to the non example. It's so obvious Um that when you ask the customer Hey, why don't you lay out all the information that you wish was on the page? You end up with uh quite a quite a bit of information and this is actually streamed down Uh quite a bit from the original right? This is actually cut way down And then if you say well, but let's actually go to what you really need to get it done Then you're going to end up with a very Streamlined look it's going to be very clean It's going to be exactly what you need if you want to read more you can If you want to check out the badge you can If you want the embedded videos, they're there. They're not necessary If you want examples, they're there So the idea is that the the language is kind of at point of use when you need it. It's there But if it's not needed, it's not there Um, also when we talk about a comedy of language we have In this particular example access to multiple languages as needed So I think the idea here is that if you're going to bother to put it up there make it important to have because uh land of a square footage matters Sorry, my my i'm trying to zoom it's it's getting a little Square footage matters and uh real estate matters when it comes to web design, obviously Just so you're flying through space I remember someone talking somebody. Um, I had a when I was a teacher. I used to have this wonderful wonderful head teacher Um, he was like an oxford graduate, etc Really interesting guy and he once gave me back something I wrote from and he said dug um It's what do you say clarity of Writing is clarity of thought And I thought actually yeah, like if you can keep things really short and to the point and you know And say what you need to say in the shortest meaningful space Then you know what you're talking about which goes back to the kind of the why I guess Laura anything you want to jump in on that? I just uh I have my video muted so you couldn't see me making a face, but I'm pretty sure that that's a orwell quote George Orwell, um, but I'm not It's just trying to remember what exactly the quote was Clarity a clarity of uh writing is clarity of thought What's that something like that? Sounds very orwellian right? um Okay, good. So economy of language obviously would apply to economy of iconic iconographs icons graphics basically use of visual communicators So the economy of language whether it's written text as well as icon based language So essentially it's not just a really good web design The idea to badge your website is you want to engage the person get them In there for purpose and then provide them everything they need um There's also a certain pacing issue that comes up with economy of language We found and and I didn't really know how to express it Quantifiably, but we found um in interviewing users They want to feel the pain. They want to feel pace They want to feel like they're Making progress quickly So in a badging website One of the reasons you want them To have a call to action with purposeful design and economy of language Is they want to feel not only that they've been sucked in but that they're already accomplishing things So it's it's right up there with when you get that frequent Buyer card and it's already got two punches in it You know, you you want to get the feeling that you're already in this in the flow And economy of language can help you do that because you're moving through the directions quickly You're moving through the login process quickly You've already accomplished that first task or watched that first video all those things help with pacing And the psychology of moving through quickly Seems to kind of play itself out And so then that kind of leads to the very final. I'm sorry Doug you want to jump in Yeah, I'll just want to jump in and say that um, I think part of the economy of language is actually using simple language There are a lot of buzzwords that float around the educational technology space and you don't actually have to use them And so when you're designing a badge platform or if you're just talking about badges Out there in the world one of the really important things to do is to use Use simple language that other people understand So that your users don't get caught up trying to trying to Determine what exactly you mean by this or that buzzword Yeah, yeah, exactly But the jargon only jargon that um moves meaning forward not jargon that just sounds good Um, and I guess that kind of leads to the final I mean submission of the badge or some completion of the task or the modules or what have you That basically the submission is the beginning that you started something not ended something We found that users when they when they used a website, they're like, ah, you're done. Good job They felt a sense of a sense of closure, but then they just they've moved on and when you ask them later about the badge Some of them couldn't even remember if they had gotten it or not It just it was like, I think I got that one. I don't know if they emailed it to me or not So there was a certain, uh Those websites that were like congratulations. Now you have your badge. Now you're ready to Uh, whatever now now you're you're ready for the next step. You're ready for uh, you know Share with one more take this knowledge and push it forward Whatever the thing was upon submission The next thing that the person experienced was um an entry point into the next Uh idea So that was an interesting design element that seemed to pop out Steve it's not part of this webinar. I know but just any thoughts on having a place where Users um children adults who ever can store their badges, you know, whether it's using a commercial platform Whether it's part of your own site, whether it's a roll your own kind of thing Whether it's storing them on a or showing them off on a on a social network any thoughts about Having a place where users can can show off their badges Well, I think that's that's worthy of a whole nother, uh Which I think you alluded to because especially in k12 education where we tend to live There are a lot of Uses for digital portfolios student showcase portfolios student presentations So I think that's a broader conversation, but what we found for adult users We have not found at this time And this is a small sampling in the grand world of the world But that uh that showcases seem to matter a lot for adult users Uh Except at times of transition and this is big build on something you said once Doug in a presentation I saw you give out here in california You said badges are particularly powerful at times of transition That made a lot of sense to me and when I see the world of work. I see Job applications. I see people moving in and out of different positions within a company Yes, badging could have a big role then but as a repository as a general, you know House, you know, where do you keep your stuff kids really like that? The badging seems to really matter for people engaged in an academic life cycle So like students in general maybe of any age Then the repository seems to really matter So it's a it's a it's a nice broad conversation, but in our work so far We found that people like the badge. That's nice But not to park or stick as a magnet on the fridge or what have you They're much more interested in the badge now opens up something else and that goes to some of the lingo Which I think we're going to be covering in the next webinar But the idea of of somewhat of a gamification that when I get this badge it opens up this new possibility Now that I've got this badge. This is what's now possible. So it's kind of a pathway concept But that's where we find people engage and and the reason they want to store the badge is so that they can use it as a ticket of entry to the next phase versus a showcase Of past accomplishment. So I think badging is particularly powerful as a future Opening experience got this badge now. I'm ready for what's next Versus I got this badge. Look at what I've accomplished. Congratulations to me Subtle but it seems to me that in the designs of the platforms where people are most engaged when they submit It's a call to what's next Versus on platforms where they submit and then they go warehouse and reflect It didn't leave as powerful as an experience for some of our users Any thoughts on that lord Or Doug you want to jump in? Yeah, I think it's really important to make sure that it is like said earlier starting something new and The the connection to opportunities is absolutely key like that. You can't expect the badge itself to be the motivation and reward It's like anything anything has diminishing returns Like I find it was my kids all the time There was a time when I would take them out for a coffee quite a lot and towards then it was just not a big thing I was being reminded of that because right before this webinar I took them to costa which is a chain over here And you should have seen their eyes whereas otherwise if I'd done that a year ago They would have been like And it's one of those things where you get diminishing returns if you expect the thing itself to be The thing which motivates people rather than the experience around it Thinking about the interactions the human side of it the opportunities might be linked to jobs might be promotion. It might be Status and somebody's eyes all these kinds of things are really important in terms of starting something and beginning a journey Which is more than just the badge itself the badge is a signifier Of the human experience rather than provoking the human experience. I would say I think that makes a lot of sense. I also want to shout out to the I just realized Laura Fleming is I didn't give her a shout out for the Template that I was showing she does a ton of good work with badging and you should definitely follow her if you don't Try to give any credits. Amy McCammon Jared McCammon big designers of the websites We were working with today um So those are my four big points today Let's see I think I So Steve if somebody Steve if somebody wanted to go into more detail apart from attend the next webinar, which will be next month Um, make sure you have a look at we are open.cov forward slash Uh webinars if you're interested in that will be having one a month with educators cop If people want to go into More depth than the the great four steps you've been through there. Where would you point them towards? Oh, that's a good question. I wasn't prepped for the homework question. So Have you got stuff on I mean, obviously they can get in touch with you. What's the best way of getting in touch with you? I've got you. Uh, you can follow us on on twitter. That's easily enough and if you're here on the website You're probably found us somehow But my email is uh Easy it's steve and then the last name is reager re g u r. So steve reager at educators co op and then it's just s reager Uh or at ed co op uh on twitter. You can follow us there um But in terms of uh homework if you're interested in badging you want to look around I think I think I would go shop some platforms online and apply these four principles I would I would go Demo a bunch of uh badge sites and then just see what you think Did you feel engaged? Did you feel like there was a call to action? Did you feel? Did you feel comfortable in that space and I think that's that's where different vendors have different tones or styles Some people lean to the more professional some lead to the more, um, let's say almost comical fun Silly and uh, you find a space you're comfortable and then look at does that match your organization? Is that the tone you're going for? So I would shop Thank you. Thank you. Um, I just like to I just like to point out that Could you I'm getting some feedback from there So another thing I just want to point out I know this isn't going to be applicable to everyone. Uh, for example steves in california the other side of the world But we are open co-op are going to be running what we're calling a badge bootcamp In london, um hosted by london connected learning center on february the 15th We wanted to wait until this webinar to announce that tickets are on sale right now. They're very limited only to 20 So if you get in there quickly, you can get the early bird rate. So if you're on this If you're on this webinar now, you'll be able to snap them up. We're going to be promoting it on twitter Um, and also there'll be people who are viewing this recording after it and we'll be sending out newsletters, etc But certainly if you want to go into more depth if you want to apply what steves said To your own particular context if you want to build on the expertise that laura and I and other people in We are open co-op have around badges. Then that's a great place to to get involved with that If you can't make that or if you are too far away from london to make that viable Then do again touch with us. We are open co-op are after we are open co-op co-op is a Norquid thing to spell online because you need to dash on it But it's just we are open then coop it looks like and then we are open Dot co-op forward slash webinars for upcoming ones and slash workshop for for the ones laura is Epileptic rabbit on twitter and I am da j bell shore laura any final thoughts There's a wonderful little tech fail happening. Oh, you can hear me. Okay, wonderful. Um Yeah, I would I would like to point everybody to we are open wiki as well Um, we've listed a bunch of the badge issuing platforms that currently exist And so if you would like to take a look at what other people have built and and maybe compare those different platforms You can our wiki which we will put with the show notes Um and otherwise Friendly Great. So finally, thank you very much to steve for leading this month's webinar We'll be in touch with details about next month's webinar If there's something that you'd like us to go into detail about we've got our plans We've got a kind of a plan for what we're going to do in each particular webinar And that's subject to change if you want us to go into depth about anything that you've heard us touch on in this webinar Anything which has come up in your particular context We're trying to keep them broad in general for example not going into depth about higher education or or k12 schools or Learning performance in a particular organization Organizational setting, but if that's something you'd like us to cover further down the line Do you get in touch? We'd love to hear from you So just being respectful of everyone's time given that we knew we'd run over We're now kind of the three-quarters of an hour mark We're going to stop there if you've got any questions just tweet us if anything like me You'll have a question as soon as I press stop broadcast But I'll give um laura and steve a chance to say goodbye and then I'm going to press the button the big red button All right. Goodbye everybody. Thanks your time. We'll talk to you later Bye everyone. Thank you Cheers everyone. Goodbye