 Connections. I'm your host Grace Chang and I'm joined today by Professor Rahim Awaday of the Department of Ethnic Studies at the University of Hawaii at Manoa. And we'll be talking about Palestine, a window into Palestine, the situation and experiences of the people there today. Welcome to the program Rahim. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for coming on the program. So I'd like to start with you're giving us a bit of background about yourself and your work and your interest in this topic. Yeah, sure. Well, I am Palestinian. I grew up in Lebanon and then found my way to Hawaii many years ago. And I got education in the United States in LA and in Hawaii. And then I had a position at the Department of Ethnic Studies. And then I'm still there. I've been there for quite a while now. And I teach courses on Hawaii and the Pacific and about economic change in Hawaii and other courses about ethnic identity, etc. And I also teach a course on the Middle East because, you know, I would like to have people about the Middle East more than what they get in the mainstream media like CNN and so on and so forth to complete the circle in terms of information, perhaps. You know, so in my little way, I could perhaps contribute to knowledge of people in Hawaii about the Middle East, especially because though the Middle East is like 15,000 miles away from here, there are so many connections. One, you know, right off the bat, military base is here and, you know, U.S. deploys from here, you know, to the Middle East for whatever you want to call them wars, invasions. Well, whatever. So that's why I would like to always talk about the Middle East and teach about the Middle East. Yeah, and last year we had the benefit of the movie showing on Bethlehem here. I think it was at the Honolulu Museum of Art on Bethlehem. It's a feature by a young filmmaker, Leila Sansor, which gives us a glimpse of Bethlehem over the last seven or ten years or so, right? And that was an interesting showing, which you presented and helped moderate. Yeah, you know, question-answer sessions. So we talked more about Bethlehem and the way in which people contend with their situation there, try to eke out an existence and try to maintain a semblance of sanity and normalcy in their daily lives. This is a challenge because of what Open Bethlehem, the movie, showed. This was actually a window into Bethlehem itself, but it is a microcosm of what's happening like in Jerusalem, what's happening in the West Bank and the rest of geographic Palestine. That film was interesting to me because I've been to Bethlehem many times when I was a little child and also as a teenager visiting my mom's place because my mom was born in Bethlehem. She's from Bethlehem, yeah. So I had that connection with the Church of the Nativity and all of that as well. And Jerusalem, of course, not far from Bethlehem before the Israeli occupation of the rest of Palestine, the West Bank. So it was interesting to see. And also interesting, like Sansour, the producer, director, her father was from Bethlehem. Her mother was Russian. And she wanted to go back to Bethlehem, which she did. And just for a year with her English husband, tried to see what's going on and all of that. She ended up staying. So because she thought like, because there's like what we call in terms of international laws and so forth, ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the West Bank, etc., slow ethnic cleansing, she wanted to say like her way of resisting is first to show what is going on and second to create an international climate, an environment of support for Bethlehem. And by implication for Palestine and Palestinian rights and human rights, national rights, etc., and also to say that I'm going to stay here and you cannot ethnic cleansing. Unless you just pick me up and throw me out, you know, that kind of situation. So it was a good position in that. There's much misinformation about what's going on in the West Bank and Gaza Strip driven by the mainstream media and the influence of, you know, Israeli lobby in the United States, not only in terms of policy, US policy on the question of Palestine and the state of Israel, but also in terms of giving all that kind of information that has hardly any basis in fact. And it's what we call propaganda or what Trump now calls fake news. So this is, to me, is very interesting. So I wanted to share with people that kind of situation. Another thing like, I mean, we mentioned under the air that I have a show, it's called Island Connections through the UH Manoa. And we talk about all kinds of issues local, national, international. And over the years I've done a number of shows because I'm the host and the producer, a number of shows about Palestine, Israel, and the peace prospects and all of that, just to give another idea to people. And that's also interesting because I teach about the Middle East also. So students get a different perspective, and that is very good that they would get that particular perspective. Yeah, I think there are very limited portrayals of people's daily lives in the Palestinian territories. Most of our news is really about policy and we don't really get a full picture. So I think that, yeah, the open Bethlehem was critically acclaimed and especially for the archival footage because it's a documentary. And so it captures a great deal about life, the life of the people. And you say you'd been there when you were younger. And so as far as the changes that you've observed in Bethlehem over the years and in this documentary film? Changes have been enormous, like demographic changes, for instance, because originally Bethlehem was mostly a Christian town. And then because of the occupation and all of that, it gradually became like more Muslims in there, but also Palestinians. And then Muslim Christians, Palestinians, fine. That's good, but I'm talking about the changes, like in terms of demographics, et cetera. The other thing, because of the occupation, a number of Christians have been leaving over the past 40 years, have been leaving Palestine, the West Bank, so that not as many Christians as before now live in Bethlehem. So this is tragic because you need those two religions in terms of Palestine, Arab Palestine, to make up the whole thing and give the whole cultural experience and so on, and the diversity and so forth. But we hope like in the future things would become better. But the main thing that really drives Christians out, also drives Muslims out, because you go to the United States, continental US, you see a lot of Palestinian Muslims and Christians, you go to Australia, the same thing and so forth. So that it's because of the occupation. And when we say occupation, it's not like I'm just sitting there occupying a place. I am really taking over land, private property from individual Palestinians or individual Palestinian families and using it to create an exclusivist Jewish settlement, only for Jews, you see. So if you need the diversity or you talk about yourself as a state, democratic state and all of that, what's happening to the indigenous population, the Palestinians, both Christian and Muslim, and why you bring people from all over the place not only from the state of Israel that was created in geographic Palestine in 1948, but from other places they come. And you give them land that might be for this person or that person, Christian, Muslim, they don't care. They just confiscate the land to build colonies, they're called, they're called settlements, but that is not a good thing for diversity and for multiculturalism, etc. The Netanyahu, the prime minister of Israel, from way back when and even now he would say like, the Palestinians don't want us to live among them or with them, which is not true at all because how do I want you to live with me if you are taking my land to build something that is exclusively Jewish? None of the settlements is for like Christians, Muslims, Jews, you know, because that's not the agenda, the Israeli agenda, you know, the Israeli agenda is takeover, but according to international law, you cannot change the demographics of an occupied territory, that's one. You cannot change like the contours of, you know, the geography, etc., of occupied territory. You cannot also annex territory. You cannot annex it, but Israel has been violating, I mean, I'm not saying this, like you look at UN, you know, resolutions, laws, etc., and also international law, you see that Israel has been violating all of this in terms of occupied territories, so that's one thing. The latest was the last year, like the late last year in 2016, in the United Security Council, UN Security Council, there was condemnation of Israeli practices of the continuation of building colonies, they call settlements, you know, that are exclusively Jewish. This is against peace, regardless of what Netanyahu or others say in the state of Israel, the fact of the matter that is violation of international law according to the United Nations Security Council, and we knew that from before. Recontours for the United Nations on the question of Palestine, they would go there and they see that, you know, there have been violations all over the place. So that's a very important thing to say. It's interesting that the US, the last UN Security Council resolution did not veto it, and this is like for the first time, you know, they did not veto it, they just abstained, and there are some politics about that, but be that as it may the fact of the matter that the US abstained, so they let it go. So Netanyahu and the rest of the Israeli elite, political elite, military elite, they started condemning those kinds of practices, US practices, etc. Even when the United States had recently before that vote, guaranteed 38 billion dollars for Israel over 10 years, and they give them all kinds of other facilitations in terms of funding and so forth. So there is something afoot, but the propaganda says like, oh, it's the Palestinian terrorists, and I don't know what, they don't look at the confiscation of land and so forth. And one last point before I end here, that wall that they have been building, the Israelis call it the fence. Well, in some places, it's a fence in the sense that, you know, it's not a wall, but you know, you think like a fence, like the fence between you and your neighbor. No, not a white picket fence. It's a huge fence. It's electric. It is watchtowers and so forth. But it is a wall, like, you know, 25 foot wall, probably twice the height of the Berlin wall, and very long, you know, like 250 miles or more. Yeah. And they say it's for security. Well, the international court said, condemned that because they said, well, if you want to build it, you build it on your borders, you know, with the West Bank, and not inside the West Bank, because at least 10% of it was inside the West Bank. So it would take a lot of land and effectively connected to, you know, annexed to Israel, because if I were a farmer in my house, he is here, and then there's a wall, and then my land here where I like make, you know, eke out an existence from what happens. I can't access my land except through a gate. I have to have the permission to go through the gate. And they do all kinds of problems for that, you see. So that is not good. Yeah. Yeah. So there you go. I mean, this is the interesting part about it. So the propaganda versus the reality. So some of the reasons for the stall in the so called peace process. Yes, absolutely. So we'll come back in a minute and talk a bit more about this with Professor Rahim Aude of the University of Hawaii. My name is Mark Shklav, and I'm the host of Law Across the Sea. And Law Across the Sea is a program that brings attorneys who have traveled across the sea and live in Hawaii or are staying in Hawaii for a time to talk about their travels, where they're from, where they're going and bring it all together because really, we're all connected some way, although we travel across the sea. So I hope that you'll tune in and watch our program. Thank you very much. Hi, I'm Marianne Sasaki, and I'm here today to tell you about the Women's March on Washington on January 21st. It's an incredibly significant march in which both men and women are going to stand up for women's rights, women's reproductive rights, and all the rights we've accrued over the past 40 or 50 years. There's also going to be marches in each city on each island. There's one in Oahu. I urge you to join a march and stand up for women's rights. Back to global connections. I'm your host, Grace Chang, and I'm here with Professor Rahim Awadeh of the University of Hawaii's Department of Ethnic Studies. So we've been talking about the situation in Palestine and where the peace prospects for peace might come. We discussed the UN Security Council resolution late last year, just before Christmas, I believe, that was condemning of the building of Israeli settlements on Palestinian territory and talking about the courses that you teach and some of the information that you've been trying to help disseminate along with others to give a more full picture of the nature of the conflict that's going on there and why there's the struggle to establish peace between the people who are in the region. So what do you think about the prospects for the future there? Yeah, well, I think they are almost nil. The reason why is because of what President-elect Trump is saying. Basically, he is on the Israeli side and if you want to be like someone who really wants to make peace between people, you cannot be on one side. You have to be like neutral. So that is an important thing. And one of the things he said, he wants to move the American Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. That would be a major disaster. Even Kerry said that, you know, the State Department, the State Secretary Kerry, he said that Obama, he thought it was a bad idea, etc. Because then if you want to have peace, you have to make sure like the people are on your side, the Palestinians. But if you do this kind of thing, this is like really say to the Palestinians that, hey, nothing has changed over the years and always the U.S. is on the Israeli side. One proof whether this is like, you know, has like its own reasons or not in terms of, you know, we have the right reasons or not the U.S., the proof would be like always vetoing, you know, U.S., U.N. resolutions, secretive council resolutions that really, you know, condemn Israel for anything. So Israel can do no wrong. It's like Caesar's wife, you know, cannot do any wrong. This is amazing, you know. And then the whole world, I mean, you go to Europe, it's a different kind of politics altogether from the United States. You go to Europe, people are not educated about what's going on because they know they're closer to the area. And so they know whatever might happen in, you know, the Middle East is going to impact them, you know, I mean, directly. You see, one proof of that are the question of immigrants, Syrian immigrants, you know, or migrants from Turkey and other places to Europe, you know, you create havoc, you know, in Europe. So that's one example. So the thing like for them, the Palestinian issue is very important because they see like, you know, what Israel is doing is not conducive to peace, you know, and all of that. So they say, hey, you got to like have an even-handed policy. And that is not possible in the United States because of the domestic politics in the United States, where you have the Israeli lobby of the APEC America, Israel Public Affairs Committee. I mean, it's huge. It's very strong. And it has impact. I mean, it controls basically in terms of policy for Israel. It controls both houses of Congress. I mean, this is like I'm not just asserting this anyway. It's easy to find that out. So that is, I think, bad for the United States. And it won't create peace. And the Palestinians' rights would always be violated, will continue to be violated. And that is not conducive to peace. So the only way, I think, to solve the problem would be if, for instance, the Israelis on the one hand and the Palestinians on the other hand say, hey, we are two sides of the same coin. You cannot solve the problems of one side without solving the problems of the other. And that requires equality and even-handedness and not exclusivism in terms of like, this is a Jewish thing and not a Christian or a Muslim thing. We don't want to have it like Jewish thing or Muslim or Christian thing. What is good to have it, a human thing, you know, where the people who live there live together equally, one person, one vote, you know, and all of that kind of situation. But that is not possible. That's on the one hand. On the other hand, you know, Palestinians have to like understand also that, in fact, you know, the other side of the coin matters. And in fact, Palestinians have demonstrated multiple times that's the case. But when they get frustrated, you know, different people do different things like some terrorist acts against civilians. But also, majority of resistance, Palestinian resistance is nonviolent. And it's something that, you know, a lot of Jews, really, in the United States but also in Palestine, they support those kinds of nonviolent initiatives. And sometimes they take part in that thing. Like, for instance, when they do house demolition, the Israelis, I mean, yeah, the Israeli army or, you know, government, Jews go there to rebuild houses, some Jews go and help Palestinians rebuild those houses, et cetera. So there is that kind of situation ongoing. So the Palestinian initiative to really put Israel on the spot internationally and so forth is to do what was done in terms of South Africa when South Africa was under apartheid, which is boycott, divestment and sanctions against South Africa. Let's have boycott, divestment and sanctions against Israel. And this has been effective. It has been about seven years that the call, Palestinians call from inside Palestine for boycott, divestment and sanctions. And this is picking up very much, especially in Europe. Many churches, many companies, you know, many institutions, et cetera, have that, you know. So it's an interesting thing. Netanyahu recently said, this is an existential threat to Israel. Boycott, divestment and sanctions is an existential threat to Israel in terms of the way he envisions Israel to be. But still, you can have a place called Palestine or Israel or whatever you want to call it, where all the people there can live in peace, you know. But then, yeah. But then there's some people on the Palestinian side wouldn't want that. But majority is on the Israeli side. They don't want that because of that ideology called Zionism that requires exclusivism to continue existing, you see. And that is non-starter in terms of negotiations, et cetera. And there are groups in Israel, yeah, that though recognize some of the practices are pushing the direction away from really reconciling a lot of the serious issues that exist between Israelis and Palestinians. So, I mean, the trend, the UN Security Council resolution, these trends is particular in Europe, but we also see with the divestment and sanctions in the United States, organizations in the United States and Europe. So we see some kind of better understanding, hopefully, at the very least. Yeah, I know your prospects currently, yeah, where we've been talking about, we'll yet to see as President Trump gets sworn into office. But thank you so much for coming in and talking about this topic today.