 but all things LGBTQ plus, use it in. Use it in. Today is September 10th, 2018. My name is Jules Caserta, I use they, them pronouns. I'm Jamie Atchinson, I use they, them pronouns. I'm Steve Flora, I use they, them or she, her. Steve's the nickname, just so you know, okay. Yeah, and today we will be talking about being closeted or experiences being closeted, trying to help people who are closeted at the moment, that kind of stuff, just that in general. Cause we've talked about coming out before, but we've never actually like really talked about what it's like to be like trapped in hell. I mean, that's basically what it is. So I think the first thing we should do is probably talk about our own experiences being in the closet and like what helped us. So, Jamie. Oh, okay, I'm currently still like semi-closeted, like about my gender, so I mean, yeah. For me, personally, like I guess name-wise, I have a very gender-neutral name. I was born with a super gender-neutral name, but like nicknames like, you know, Steve and Jules, you know, that helps, that can help make someone less disfore. I don't know. We're not prepared. Let's not say that next time. No, we can say that. I don't know. I want, excuse you. I don't experience a ton of dysphoria, generally, but sometimes it's just like, it's super intense, but yeah. So can you like give me a run of like, what was going through your head when you were in the closet? I mean, wait, cause I'm still technically in the closet. Okay, so Steve. Yeah, Steve. Can you like explain to people what it was like and what was going on inside your head? Cause I know for me it was a jumbled mess. Well, so, it was like not long after I figured out that there was like, oh, hey, what's up? And so, like I've talked about this before, like I kind of came out on accident or like, I was asked if I was gay. I was like, well, I guess. So, I don't know, no one besides my friend group really knows about my gender stuff and none of my family watches this anyways, so it's okay, let's keep that. Oh, I'm good about it, I'm fine. I don't really care if they find out. It's just like, it's kind of like. Honestly, Steve? We're just like, you don't care at that point. We're just like, you know what? You guys can figure it out on your own. You're smart enough, there you go. It's kind of like, confused. Yeah, I'm not, I don't, it's a lot to handle. It's a lot. Just be like, trying to like, figure it out on your own even though like, there is resources for you, you're still doing it by yourself. Like it's not, you're not, you don't have this little guy and it's not telling you like. You're gay. I mean sometimes, but. Little men telling you you're gay? No. Steve's going through some stuff. But I feel like it's kind of a thing that you have to like, deal with yourself and it's one of those times that can be like really, really, really hard and or it could be like, oh, answers. Yeah, but I'm in between that so. And like, I mean it's a different experience for everyone. Like some people honestly, they figure out who they are and they come out immediately. Other people are forced to be in the closet for years. And like, for me, it's just really confusing because like, I was in the closet, I wasn't in the closet where it's like, I didn't hide anything about myself but like, no one knew that I just couldn't. It was just a mess and because of that, it was also a mess in my brain where it was like, what's going on? I don't know who I am. I know who I am but I don't, these people know who I am but that was what they know was like, how do I communicate? Who can I talk to about this? Who am I allowed to say things to? It was kind of a, I'm like, okay. It was just kind of a, just a big mess and that's like the kind of the problem with, well, there's also a lot of problems about being in the closet but like for me, my biggest problem was how messy it was and because of that mess I felt it's gonna be isolated where it was like, it's literally like you were trapped in a closet. It's like small and you're just like suffocating in the clothes or whatever. The clothes. The clothes, well, the clothes door. Yeah, it's like you're just trapped and you're just like, honestly, for me it was like I was suffocating in my own lies because it's like, I'm lying about who I actually am where it's like, yeah, I'm totally female. What? Yeah, that's definitely my pronoun, you're doing great. Yeah, I think for me, the biggest dysphoria comes from when I'm around other people and they're like gendering me improperly and I don't do too bad when I'm like by myself, just kind of existing and doing my thing but when I get around other people, especially at school or like strangers, like just getting randomly gendered by someone, that's tough. But you know, I'm not at school but not to my parents and with my sexuality, like our QSA had, it just started the year that I figured out that I was queer, so. That's handy. Yeah, I went to like the meeting and I kind of had this realization through the QSA and I like started to understand myself through the QSA and in a really supportive environment. So I kind of immediately came out when I realized that like in QSA, with gender too, but at home it was a much more lengthy process but school was really there to help me like figure out who I was and how I identified. And yeah, I think like QSAs and like. Oh yeah. They touch good resources. They're so good. They're so helpful. It's a wonderful resource, like if your school has it and you're confusing any sense, you don't even have to be queer, you're just confused. Yeah. Even if you're not, like honestly. Yeah, I thought I, sorry. I thought I was when I like started our GSA thing. You thought you were what? That was, I thought I was just an ally, like I said, like I thought I was just an ally. Then I go, it's like, oh, wow. It's like experiencing a small version of the community. Right. Like holy crap, I'm gonna be here all the time. Yeah, and then like outright Vermont and like hearing about that through GSAs, like or NQSAs are like, that's an incredibly supportive environment. You know, you just go there and you get so validated. Mm-hmm. And it's like, it's like such as like a shock, almost. Yeah. Like my first GSA meeting in the middle of school against the people who were saying about, I thought I was straight. Who was that person? We don't talk about that. But like, I went there and I was like, wow. This is like a huge change. It was like, I was so used to not ever discussing this kind of stuff. Like I didn't know anything. And then I went to GSA and I was like, it was like, what's going on? But also this is amazing. Yeah. It's kind of funny. I distinctly remember in like fifth or sixth grade like being online. I think it was Pinterest actually. I love Pinterest so much. Just kind of scrolling through and then like seeing these and hearing about like lesbian and gay people. And I hadn't really been exposed to that before middle school or before the internet. So being exposed to it through the internet, I, you know, did some more research. And then I distinctly remember like wanting to be gay. Like I know that's how much I didn't think I was, but I distinctly remember being disappointed when I thought that I wasn't. I do get that. Like I used to like think lesbians were so cool. I know. And I'm like, yes. It's so much fun. Wow. Yeah. And also you were talking a little bit about like sexual out, like coming out in that sense. That for me was like relatively easy compared to coming out gender wise. Gender is a lot more complicated especially with the constant like gendering day to day life. Especially for NB people too. Oh yeah. It's like a new kind of concept. Not as mainstream as like bisexuality or pansexuality. Yeah. My dad has a lot of trouble with they, them pronouns and that's a large part of why I'm not like out to him yet. So like I, but like for me, like I figured out I was definitely not straight like sexuality wise. And I was like, okay, that's cool. Like, I mean, I knew that when I was in like fourth grade because I just, those stare at girls. And I was like, wow. You had a sexual awakening that early. You always remember the girl who made you realize for me. Like I always, I still remember her to this day. She's still gorgeous to this day. And I will never forget. I know what you're talking about. I didn't have a girl who made me realize. Oh no, I just like saw her one day in my class. And I was like, wow, holy crap. I'm not straight. Yeah. No, I guess it wasn't until like recently that I was like really affirmed in my gender. And you know, like after like dating someone and who wasn't a boy, it's kind of interesting actually because I feel like a lot of LGBTQ plus people in the past had to like grow up being, you know, one of their first people that they dated wasn't someone that they would have dated by choice. But you know, the first person that I dated was a girl. So. How do you date someone not by choice? No, no, like, they're not like, like they weren't out at the first, at the time. It wasn't a good gender that I would date. Yeah, like for a gay guy, you know, like maybe he grew up dating girls and then didn't realize that he liked boys until later. But you know, I dated a girl and then it wasn't really until recently that I realized that I can't really imagine myself like being with a guy and how that's kind of just like an uncomfortable feeling. Yeah. And like, like I had that kind of like awakening and then like I wasn't in a closet for a super long time. Like I think I came out in seventh grade. So it was like fourth to seventh grade, but it wasn't as big of a deal for me as gender. Cause like gender, it's like you're always being misgendered. You're always being used the wrong name. So it was a lot more prevalent with like sexuality. It was like, if someone asks me, I'm going to say that I am like, bye, cause I thought I was bye. Like it wasn't as overwhelmingly I am stuck in the closet. It was more like, you know what? If a girl wanted to date me, then I would date her, but no girl wants to date me. So like it's fine. No girl wants to date you. That's true. No girl does want to date me, but like that's not always on a huge issue. But like when it came to like being closeted gender wise, it was like literally felt like crushing weight on you 24 seven and just, and I honestly think that might have been cause it was just so more prevalent. But like, see the thing is like discovering who you are is always great. Like that moment where it's like, wow, I'm gay. Wow, I'm non-binary. Wow. Wow. It's much better. And then it's just a shit show afterwards. And I would say, I did. And it's like great, horrible, hopefully great at some point maybe. Cause obviously like a lot of we aren't adults yet. So we don't know if it gets better. We hope it does. I was, I hope it does. I think it does. I think until like senior year of high school, it's going to be super shitty. Like you can't be expecting too much. I mean, of course, you have to be on really low expectations. Yeah, some great things are probably going to happen, but like you got to keep your expectations low from what I've, from what I understand. I'm, I'm not, I haven't entered high school yet. So I have no idea. But like. It's better than middle school. It's so much better than middle school. Great. That's a tantrum we don't need to go into. Yes. I think it's just, I think it's kind of, you have to lower your expectations. Not saying that you need to lower your expectations for everything, but like you can't let that affect like how you're thriving, I guess. I don't know. But like, I don't know if I'm saying that right. Especially with gender. It's kind of funny. I came out and now in my grade, I guess I'm like kind of the gay kid. Yeah, that's like who you become. Yeah, which is, you know, pretty refreshing, you know. I make gay jokes, they laugh. They make gay jokes, I laugh. It's, you know, not like bad gay jokes, you know. They're funny, you know, like, not a straight line type thing. But I've had a lot more trouble with gender. Yeah. And like, for me like, I've been similar about with you where I'm so like kind of out with gender, but I'm also like kind of not. Where it's like, people know. Essentially I am out. It's just people don't use the right pronouns. Yeah, it's not like a respected thing. Yeah, but you're aware of it, but they just don't care. I think part of it is too, they don't know how to deal with it. I think I have like a lot of cis straight friends who just don't know how to respect pronouns and don't know how to be a good ally, you know. Even if like someone's tried to tell them, it just, for them, it's a pretty unknown place and it's, you know, confusing, so. I get that, but you know. Yes. I got questions for you too. You too. Oh, okay. Both of you. It's questions for everyone, essentially. Were there like tips or tricks or like habits that just helped you when you were in the closet? Cause like I know for me, I had a bunch of like rituals or whatever you want to call them that like helped me be able to like not die. Like in terms of what, like emotional stuff, like. Anything. Cause like I would, like tip for me, I would refer to myself in the third person with the right pronouns for the right name in my head. Yeah, I do that a lot. They're going into school, that kind of stuff. You like correct your pronouns for yourself in your head and if you misgender yourself, treat it as if you're misgendering someone else, you know, like really make an effort to correct yourself in your head. Yeah, cause like also a huge thing to do is I still misgender myself to this day. Cause it's just like, oh, I haven't been on that long. Or it's just like, it just, like my brain is like, what? Yeah. I think, sorry. Okay, okay. You can both talk. I follow a lot of like really inspirational and really like affirming LGBTQ, well specifically non-binary people online and a lot of non-binary people who are really comfortable, even though they were born one gender, like embodying both. And for me, that's like been a big struggle. Like I tend to push to be more masculine to like combat being born female and like trying to get comfortable with more feminine things, like dresses and makeup has been like a big struggle because those are typically feminine associated. And, you know, so, but like following those people online has like really helped me understand that non-binary is more than, you know, for me at least is more than just being masculine. So I have a question for how you identify with non-binary. Kind of they're like, it's like kind of thinking people feel like they have both genders, they have no gender. What would you describe it as? Like both genders, no gender, nothing, like. I tend to go with a gender just cause. So like the absence of gender. Yeah, yeah. I don't really feel a strong sense of gender at all. I just kind of, you know, exist or whatever. Yeah, just kind of mad. I don't care, but I don't want you to use this. Like you do, but you don't care. It's like I care being labeled as something I'm not, but I don't care as long as it's fairly vague. Yeah. Yeah, I never, like for me it was always like, I'm not, it was just confusing when I was closeted because obviously I'm kind of trying to fake, like closeted is because it's still kind of, you're trying to figure yourself out. You have like an idea, but it's kind of like, how do I really put a label onto this? Yeah. So for me it was kind of like, I am both, cause it was like some days I'm really masculine, some days I'm really feminine, and it's like how do I turn that into a presentation kind of thing? Yeah, I've had some trouble like with myself trying to identify as trans. Oh, so am I. Like because I don't feel, you know, I feel like that's a word dedicated more to people who are, you know, trans more towards one gender than another, and as a non-binary person it kind of feels like I'm taking that label away. I mean part of it is also that it doesn't really like jive with me. Like I really like the word non-binary more than like genderqueer for example. But. Except for genderqueer. Yeah, I don't know why. I just like the, maybe it's the, that there's a like a, like there's no gender in it? Well yeah, but it's like, there's a like a friendly version of like NB. You know, like, I don't know. It just feels right. Yeah. More than genderqueer for example. Yeah, and like I understand what you're saying about trans then, which I've talked about before. Like you're not, like for me it might not be the same as like I'm taking a label away. It's like I never, I'm still female to an extent. Like I still, I like part of me is still female and will always be female but then there are just more parts of me that are also man, man. That is also masculine and also like nothing. Yeah, see, I don't really feel a part of me as female at all or male at all. So I guess that's kind of why any like he, him or she, her pronouns just generally don't feel right at all because I don't really feel like anything. Sounds so bad. So kind of going back to more like tips for closeted people. Are there any like, because are there any like small things that help you? Like could like, I've heard that like people will use different names at coffee shops or they'll use their preferred name. They're looking at me choosing links. I didn't use my actual name at a coffee shop once. Okay. But like, or with that kind of thing, like painting your nails with clear polish to make you feel more feminine or like growing your hair out or not shaving. Is it, did you guys ever partake in any of that? And like smaller things that help eliminate your dysphoria slightly? Yes. What were they? I don't shave my legs very much. People like- Like because rages are annoying first of all. Yeah, but like I feel like shaving your legs is typically stereotyped as like something all females should do. Yeah. But like, I actually don't care. Like- You naturally have hair there. What's the issue? There's a point where I will do it. Like because if I do end up doing it later it's going to be a struggle. And like the hair boss in the shower it's like nasty. Vlog my razor Yeah. At work anymore. But like I don't, I also like I kind of want to just like answer one of those questions too before like I don't, I believe in like, I don't really like to say that I'm more masculine or feminine. I like to go with what I'm feeling in the moment. Like I'm a very electric person. I'm not trying to be like cocky or anything but like I like eccentric fit. Yes. That's what I've been described as. Like I'm kind of- Oh like you're just like loud and like poppy and like that kind of stuff. Sometimes. Is that what you're trying to say? I'm trying to get into that. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm eccentric I guess. And I'm like, I like exciting things. And I'm like that's what's been used to like describe me before I guess. I don't know. But like it's kind of like I don't mind wearing like fun colors of like lipstick. And like- I mean you're wearing crocs right now. I am wearing crocs. Right. Yellow crocs. They're wearing crocs. It's an issue. It's I don't like crocs. Oh my God. It looks like a clog and swishy is combined. No offense I just take crocs. But I don't. I will wear like a button-down shirt and pants or I'll wear like not like a dress but like a plain one. Like it's not, I don't, I bounce a lot between the things because I don't really care. It's what I like. I'm not thinking about other people or what other people want to hear. I'm thinking about what I want to be and how I want to come off and I guess I don't know. So like- Can I have that confidence? I try. It's a struggle but it's, that's what I want to do. Like I want people to know me as me. Like I don't want to say like oh like you know I'm not like, I'm getting annoyed because I can't do this but like it's, I only like, I ask for things like when I just want to like, it's mostly just when I want to like express myself more. That's when I mostly like ask for things is just ways to help me like be my best self. And it doesn't always matter with appearance. It's kind of, it's also just, it kind of helps me feel better and it helps me feel like oh okay I'm kind of starting to be the person I wanted to be. So that's that. Yeah, back to the hair thing. I don't know, I just thought I'd bring it back. Yeah, go ahead. So when I get my hair cut or like sometimes I like cut like my neck, like the hair on my neck just like bring it down some at home. And like when I'll do that like I have peach fuzz so like go at you know the razor with that which is kind of fun. And then again like like hair you know just like letting that grow. And if you're afraid to do that I guarantee like nobody cares. Yeah, I was so afraid of everyone caring. Like after you let it grow it's not. No one cares. I promise you. Plus it's soft. Yeah, yeah it's really, it's really soft my, I was babysitting one time in my, it's like the kid. Yeah he was like, he was like petting my leg and he was like this is really fuzzy. It was super sweet. But yeah I was really afraid to like not shave my legs once I started because I was like oh no people are gonna care, they don't, they really don't. And a lot of the reason that I felt I needed to shave in the first place was because of my sister. It was like a rite of passage in my family. It was weird. Yeah, well no she was just like over at our house one time and she was like 28. And she was over at our house one time and she was like I was about your age when I started shaving. I was like okay. And then so I kind of did it for a while and then I kind of had this like envy realization and I was like, why? Yeah. Like it takes so much work. Why would I keep doing this? It's so pointless. Like I shaved my, I hit my armpits for like tank top reasons but like I stopped shaving my legs for a little while and I was like this is, it's so much easier. I took, my showers were so short. It was amazing. I still had hot water left. It was really fun. But like moving on from my hair. Oh wait, hold on real quick. And just hair in general. Like you can do a lot with like the hair on your head. You know. Well especially if your less it's work. I cut my hair and I was like oh wow. It was literal way off my shoulders. Like with the gender and I just had a lot of hair. Oddly enough hair was kind of my, also my envy realization you know. Same? No in like sixth grade. I was from like when I went into middle school I kind of over that summer I cut my hair just cause I wanted to you know. No reason besides it felt like it. And from you know from there I ended up like wearing button downs a lot in sixth and seventh grade. Like a lot. Butt downs are so helpful. I became obsessed with them. I kind of faced out of that now. But and I didn't realize until after I was envy that I was like subconsciously dressing and presenting the way I wanted to before I knew what it was. And you know no one really cared. Cause my parents you know they're super cool and they were like yes or whatever. Yeah and like another thing for like dysphoria. Especially if you're still closeted. Baggy button downs. Button them all the way up. Perfect it's so helpful. You feel so snazzy too? I feel really snazzy. Like for like graduation in middle school I didn't want to. It was such a good outfit. So you apparently really liked it. I didn't want to wear a dress. I did not want to walk down the cheesy red carpet cause literally they rolled out a red carpet. I'd be allowed to walk in pairs to the beat of music. It was intense. But I was like I'm not wearing a dress to this. I don't like dresses. I don't come to boring dresses. I would have to shave and I just don't want to do it. So I, instead of doing that I got a blazer on and I felt so much in me. The minute I put it on I was like wow. What is this? I don't feel so girly or feminine anymore. It was so helpful. So like small things like that. Cause like I still looked fairly feminine cause like an acceptable thing now for me to wear a blazer to see even though it shouldn't be acceptable. It was still like a fairly feminine thing. So it was like since I was still technically in the closet it was like it's okay. People are still seeing me as a female. I'm not afraid of that. But I'm comfortable now. Where it's like cause I didn't, obviously I want people to be able to see me as a gender that I am but it was like I'm not out so I want to hide it. And then like saying I wore a really tight sports bra that day too where sports bras also if you can't bind or you're not able to bind just get sports bras. Like they're all that same thing but they're really helpful. Oh and for trans femme people getting like the kind of doing like the reverse of a sports bra like getting push up bras. Yeah like push up bras or bras that come with like extra padding and like shoving it in there. I did that as a kid. I was just confused pal and I put toilet paper in my bra. I sure toilet paper if it doesn't look too lumpy. It looks really lumpy. Okay. Maybe not toilet paper. I was a friend looking at the fast crazy. It was fun. Maybe not toilet paper. Cotton books. I'm just trying to think of things that can make boobs out of. But you know like is something like that might help. I think to forget that I'm being filmed when I'm here and I just talk. I think that's the point though. Like we're here to talk about things and share like our experience. We wouldn't talk about the uncomfortable things. But I wouldn't usually talk about with a lot of people. Huh? A lot of these things I wouldn't usually talk about with a lot of people so it's nice to like that I'm just saying it's nice to have this. See that's what the LGBTQ part is. Yes it is. There's four. They're so validated. Yeah. So let me just quickly get to my notes cause my phone turned off. Oops, Daisy, keep talking. So. Sips for like mental health. Can we talk about like relieving some dysphoria? What did you guys do when you were in the closet to like save your mental health? Cause like I journaled a lot. I would write down what I was doing. I thought of names so I could have a name and then I wanted to like come out. So like what did you guys, please help me carry the conversation. I was blessed with an incredibly gender neutral name. So happy but my middle name I'm pretty dysphoric about. So I kind of got to a point and I ended up like looking up some more gender neutral versions of my middle name but that were pretty similar because my initials like mean a lot to my dad because they were the initials that my grandmother had and that my dad had and that I had. So like I definitely want to keep my initials but you know coming up with a name that sounds similar to my middle name. So I kind of have one but like it's like tucked away for me. Did you do anything for like journaling or like anything that just helped your mental health? Or is it just a little less? I mean I kind of have, I don't like journal constantly but I kind of have this little journal that has like a couple of entries and whenever I'm feeling like something super intense and I like or like really angry or feel like I need to give an update on my life I'll like go in there and get some stuff down and that's kind of been cool to look back on over the years. I have a journal that I've kept since like I think fifth grade and like you just see me like most of it like the beginning is just me complaining to my sister. No offense Ed, I love you but we're siblings so we kind of hate them but we still love each other the thing. And like then it just slowly progressed and it became like the trans journal. It's like it's really, it kind of got more depressing too. Which is better like it just, you could slowly like see the different phases of my life where it's like I'm just a little kid I'm a complain about things that's just what I wrote in my journal for and then like it just slowly became like a mess and what was I going to say? Okay so this kind of sounded a little weird in the beginning. I read something recently where you envision the negative thoughts and like you envision a brain essentially like your brain and you envision the negative thoughts and you literally imagine pulling them out of your head which I tried doing. It sounds a little weird but like you might do like- It makes sense. It's like these little like dark black thoughts like running through, you know how like brains have those line things on them? Like running through that and I tried it and I imagined pulling it out like it was a worm stuck in there and I actually felt that which is strange but that's the thing I've never heard of and I just share it cause it was fun. Yeah that's interesting. They also talked about doing it with physical pain but like I can't really be one to discuss physical pain. But what about you? Did you do anything when you were causing it to help your mental health? Um, well, I, music is kind of my life. I'm one who believes very much that music is a very healing thing. Like there's so many different types of music. Like actually, if you like anything you could pretty much imagine, it's probably a thing. I think that's amazing because like you, you were like so unique and individual. Like you can't like be told what to like. Like that just doesn't make sense but like music you don't have to be like criticized. You might be but you don't need to pay attention to it because you can just go off, put your headphones in, listen to music and I think that's like a wonderful thing that we can like have that access now. Like, yeah music can be super therapeutic. Yeah, I like whether you're crying to it or dancing around, I do that a lot. Which one? Both, mostly dancing, I like dancing. But that's good. But it's just, I'm, explore music is what I'm saying because it's so incredibly important for anyone. Not just someone who's like an extreme fan of it or whatever but like for anyone. Like just go and listen to music that you've never heard before and it's great. See, I agree with that but also when I was like really sad per day, like I would kind of use that negatively where I literally had a playlist where it was like here are all the things that are like, they make me feel worse in like an oddly satisfying way. It's like kind of like, it's like, it just kind of like, I don't know how to describe it. I always use it in like a more of a negative sense which isn't good but. So make sure you're using your music positively. Don't do that, don't do what I do essentially. I'm not one to talk about my goals. Be smart about it. Jamie, you don't need to call me out man. I'm calling you out. You always call me out, this is an issue. Why wouldn't I? I do. Okay but like, I just honed in on that really negativeness and eventually it kind of just went away once I like just like pushed it into a ball and when I was like made it like. Consistence. Yeah, like but like, I don't know. It was just really satisfying to like and like kind of like started to like focus on it and like. Yeah and like sometimes focusing on like what's negative and trying to work through it even, you know, with music and even if it makes you sadder for a time as long as it like goes away and. Yeah, I, like I said, be responsible about like pick something to listen to that isn't depressing if that's what you think you need. Well like too depressing you know, like if you're like in like a terrible, terrible place. I'm not saying like you should listen to bad music by the way. I'm saying that I am used to that music sense. Yeah, that's I'm just trying. I don't know if I'm wording it right. I'm just trying to like get it like just be cautious of like what you're listening to because I'm not going to go in depth with this but like I last year I was like really not great time of life. A lot of things were happening and I listened to this one song it's really depressing. The Suicide Hotline is the name of the title and then I almost went and did something really stupid because of listening to that song. So I just be smart. Don't make a choice that you're going to regret because I know this is not relevant to what we're talking about but I just wanna say if you're having self doubt and you think that you're invalid and like not worth being here, rethink that because if you weren't worth being here you wouldn't have born to start with. Like if your life wasn't worth it you wouldn't be here like to begin with. So just keep that in mind. Like you are valued, you are valid, you are all of the above and you deserve positive things. Like even if it's like really hard and you just feel like you can't make it, you can do it. Like find something that makes you happy whether it's someone, something. And just stick to that until you can figure out another plan for something that makes you happy and I think knowing that made me feel a little bit better just kind of having that mindset of. Do, okay. So you kind of mentioned self doubt and I would like to kind of delve into that a little bit more especially when it comes to like closeted and like gender because I think for me there's so much, so much self doubt especially in gender. And I was like maybe I'm not, maybe I'm just a masculine woman. Especially as a non-binary person. Especially non-binary person. Cause like there's just, even in sexuality there's like just in the closet and even when you're out of the closet it's like constant, constant, constant self doubt. And something that I kind of did that kind of pertains to this is I would be lying in bed, there's like depressed, like out of my mind. I would be so upset and I would be trying to fall asleep because like sleep is nice and you can break it out thanks for a little while. And what I would do is I would, to make myself feel better, I would imagine what I wanted my life to be when I was older. You imagine people using the right pronouns. I imagine people using the right name. I imagined this like kind of utopia of what I wanted to do, who I wanted to be. I imagined how I looked, I imagined it all and it just gave me like something to hold onto with like self doubt and like things of worthlessness and the feelings of wanting to like that you're not supposed to be here, that kind of stuff. I like just clung to that for dear life. And I was like I need to get to this point. I need to be able to experience it at some point. Like good things will come. You just need to look at it and focus on it and do what you can and just power through. I know, I know it's not, that just doesn't, it sounds simple and I know it's not simple but it's so worth it. But also if you simplify it in your brain it becomes a whole lot easier. Like for me it was like every single day just get through this day, get through this day, every single day. So just get through this day, you can be sad tomorrow. Get through this day, you can be sad tomorrow. And I just kept saying that every day and eventually I just simplified it as much as possible and I was like, okay, that's a simple task. I can do that. And then I just kept doing that same simple task over and over again until honestly I'm not to the place where I want to be. I don't think a one of us are because of how young we are. It's kind of difficult like the place where we want to be but until I got to a better place. So it is totally not simple but if you do kind of just like break it down it's like a sentence. You can kind of, it feels less crushing and easier to deal with. Okay, so I think that maybe we should talk about like finding like what you like and what you kind of, what you use to express yourself and just kind of tips for that. Like what do you recommend doing for like figuring out what clothes you like? What color do you want your hair to be? Like what, I don't know. Just like random things like that. Like just kind of being able to- Try so many colors in my hair. With self expression. Yeah, self expression. Thank you so much. Yeah, so I can express myself pretty freely but when I was kind of in the closet it's a lot harder to be able to express yourself freely so like I would do like small things where like I kept my nails really short because I just pick at them nervously. I wasn't like a thing but I just keep my nails really short. I stopped shaving. I like got my hair. What? What, me? You have nasty nails moving on. Or like I would like use my dad's kind of clone or deodorant to like make myself feel kind of more masculine in a way that people couldn't tell. It wasn't a huge thing. Like people couldn't tell that I was questioning my gender that I wasn't a girl. So I could still feel like I'm, I could still feel like safe but like more comfortable in who I am. We should make a deodorant for non-binary people. Do you know what should it be? Tom's deodorant. Are gendered. Well, I don't know. It's not gendered. Think about it though. Cents aren't gendered. Well. The toothpaste isn't gendered. That's true. Conditioner isn't gendered. But old spice has it as well. I have issues. No, but like a super gender neutral deodorant is Tom's. They make. I smell the deodorant with a fiery passion. Tom's? Yes. Why? It's nasty. It smells so good. It's nasty. And it's super gender neutral. Oh my God. That was my phone. It's fine. It doesn't break. This is what happens when I'm leading. Oh, OK. That's right. Finding what you need to express. Yeah. So like I said, I kind of had my gender awakening from. Like I didn't even realize it. Like it just kind of happened. And looking back, I was like, wow. You look back and you realize how gay you actually were. So I cut my hair just because I wanted to. And I think if you have like parents that don't really mind you cutting your hair, or you can convince to let you cut your hair, you know. I cut my hair myself in my room. I grabbed his den and I was like, I'm doing this now. Don't do that. Don't do that. That's a bad idea. That's a bad idea. It's going to look horrible. You wouldn't let me do that. So don't be a hypocrite. I tried to cut my hair, remember? Don't do that. Are you saying I don't look good? Are you saying I don't look good? You look lovely, Jules. Go to a professional. You know what? And we're like transmasculine people. Go to a barber, for example. You know, if your parents are comfortable with that. Why are barbers in the laundry? Why is it transgender? Well, let's just not get into that. I went to my dad's barber fairly early on. And you know, he wasn't like the hairdresser I was looking for. But you know, I went to the barber and no one really cared. So you know, it's. Sorry. I agree. Sorry, I'm sorry. We're not talking about that. No. OK. OK. Oh, like, if you can avoid it, don't shop in like stores. Because they're super, no. No, I mean like in person stores. Online shopping. You want people to online shop. Well, OK. Maybe like try thrift shopping. Well, I don't know. I don't know. Online stores have a lot of genders. And you don't have to go into a male or female dressing room. Yeah. If you're not comfortable with that. Where's the dressing room gendered there at once? Wait, yeah, wait. Where do you go to the gender dressing rooms? It's just a fitting room. Everywhere. It just says fitting room. Oh my gosh. A lot of places. But like you were talking about like experimenting and trying to figure it out. I did that with my hair. I did it myself. Don't do that. I looked good. Excuse me. I'm sure you did. So, OK. So I, hmm. OK. I cut my own hair. I slowly went shorter and shorter, which I just think it's funny to watch. Oh yeah. I can tell how old I was in a picture by what length my hair was. That's what I'm talking about. I'm sorry, but it's really cool. Like my hair was here when I first cut it. And every year it's slowly gotten shorter. Yeah, I just, so I used to have hair down my waist. Like when I started eighth grade I had really long hair. It was like here and then it was here. It just slowly progressed and half of it was gone. Yeah. So I created a ton where like I had like here, then it was, then I just shaped half of it. OK, can I talk about why I shaped half of it? Yes. I did it because I, for a while, I didn't have a way to describe my gender. So I was like, I'm too gendered. Just totally possible. That's so cool. Which is why I did like half of me is nail, half of me is female. Oh my god, a little gay. Whoa. I never told anyone why I did that. That's a kid for you out there. All of you beautiful people. Shave half your head. Half male, half female. Fake your nail. Or you could do like a bull cut actually. You do the bottom. Don't tell people to get a bull cut. Next, how about a hair dye? Oh my god, I love hair dye. So I've actually never dyed my hair. I'm working on dyeing mine. I'm still trying to convince. That's a bleach. It's more color and gray. Actually, I guess I haven't dyed it. Sweetie. I haven't dyed it in a natural color. Anyways, I'm still working on convincing my parental to let me dye my hair. But I would just be edgy and do it yourself at home. I'm going to. Actually, I'm going to let a friend do it. I had to write. That's what I've done. Sorry, continue jewels. I had to write an essay to convince my mom to let me dye my hair. Actually, if you're trying to convince your parents to do something, write them an essay. Because then you think you're smart. Yeah, because not only will they respect the fact that you wrote an essay, they will think that you're ridiculous for spending that much time on it and be like, OK, I give up, fine, you're right. Plus, if there's actual facts in there, then you're just convincing them with an essay. I didn't annotate in bibliography. That's extra. I helped with that bibliography. You guys are extra. Yes, I did. I helped with that bibliography. I remember. Yes, I did. OK, back to hair dye. But yeah, I experimented with a bunch of crazy colors. I've had a bunch of colors. I went purple, blue, red, back to purple. This was not meant to be purple. First of all, it's meant to be black. We don't talk about it. Yeah, I've done bits of my hair. That's why some of it's lighter colors. But all of a sudden, my mom's like, I don't know how comfortable I feel with you dying like all of your hair because I'm like, Why do your parents care? It's my body. And the only way for me to know if I don't want it is for me to learn. Then just shave your head. You can always just cut it off later. And I'm not doing my entire head. I'm doing most of it. I'm doing most of it, so it's fine. But I don't understand that she was totally chill with it then, but I feel like she has a suspicion that I'm doing it for something else. We've run out of a lot of tangents. Yeah. I would like to end this with just saying a simple. Are we ending it? What about hair dye? I wanted to continue the conversation on hair dye. Who's the leader here? Who is in the chair? I mean, I like hair dye. I really enjoy hair dye. We can talk about hair dye when the camp's no longer rolling. OK, that's fair. Yes. So to end this, I want us to go starting from Steve but to me, just a simple sentence that you want people to walk away hearing their ring. Well, what? I'm not ready. I'm starting? I can start. I love starting. Can I go last? No, we're not going to Steve me. Can we not go on anymore? Brance, OK. Thank you. I think your valid be you. Don't let people that are being hateful get in your way because you're like yourself and they're not you. This is more than one sentence. It's OK. And then also just be ready for anything but also be ready to fight. Just be ready to explain why. I'm thoroughly not basically. Violence isn't the answer. Fight for what you think you need. Moving on. Again, like what Steve said, you're valid and amazing and lovely and surround yourself with people that remind you that you're valid, amazing, and lovely. And because that really, really helps. And even if you can't be yourself all the time, find some safe people who you can because that will really help you. The closet clip. Ha. Ha. Think about it. The closet kills. And if you're finding the care about someone, don't pour them into a closet. But also if it's going to endanger your safety. Don't do it. Like, do it if you can. Well, you're like taking away the intensity of my statement. If I'm sorry. Coming out of the closet is a really intense thing and do it on your own time. But also don't just have someone to do a closet. Yeah. So last thing I want to say and then one is the tips and things we talk about. We talk about a lot. It does not pertain to everyone. Our closet experiences do not pertain to everyone. It is not the same for everyone. It will probably be very different for anyone who's in the closet who is watching this. Yeah. Now I would like to end this. This has been all things LGBTQ plus youth edition. We will see you next month. Thank you for watching. Hopefully we'll see you next month. Bye. Bye.