 Frustration. We've all experienced this. Despair and apathy. So I'm sure all of us have experienced this during our coding experiences, whether it's work or in our life experiences. And it's something to reflect upon, you know, what causes these emotions we have these strong reactions to our day-to-day coding. And our hero, Matt, he's come to save us from all these bad feelings that we have. It's a little dark there, but the reason Ruby was created to, with the intention, one of the intentions was to help develop our happiness. It's very unique language in that way that there was a humanistic kind of focus instead of trying to solve a switching problem like C was, for example. Matt really wanted to create something so he could be happy. And not bang his head against the wall so much. Recently I reaffirmed this. I took a contract. Kind of was getting a little bored in the web domain. I've been doing Ruby professionally for six or seven years. And I decided to take a C++ contract. Very interesting domain. 3D visualization. Kind of like a holodeck that you walk into. Really cool stuff. But I soon realized after the end of the first day that I was again banging my head against the wall. Whether it was the compiler or some sort of thing. And it wasn't that I had reviewed my C++. I didn't feel like there was any problems with language or stuff. It was just a general inefficiency and kind of unhappiness that came with that. And the project ended up being a success. It was a fun project. I embedded a web server with a RESTful interface and kind of used some Rails kind of techniques in it. But it was just a pain in the butt. So happiness. It's something that, for a lot of us, is fleeting. It's something we all experience, obviously. But it's something, once you reflect on it, you lose that. So if you feel happy and then you kind of say, well, what is happiness, then you probably aren't happy anymore because you're kind of in an analytical, more thoughtful mode. So how many of you feel fulfilled in your work and your everyday life? About half the room. That's good. Not every day. Not every day, of course. So what I'm going to cover today, I'm going to look at this a little more, kind of step back and look at happiness in our work environment and how we could potentially cultivate that and make that a better experience. So if you really look at all the things we do that make us happy, it's really all about order and control. So all the things we do, whether it's at work or at home, your hobbies, you're really trying to put some order to your consciousness. So whether it's creating music or writing code, busting out a new open source project, there's really that sense of control and order that is giving you happiness and fulfillment in your everyday life. So the more we can look at how to order our consciousness and make it make sense and have control over that, the more happier you'll be. So one good example, like I mentioned, is music. On both sides, when a composer is creating music, he's trying to capture a certain emotional feel, a certain state of consciousness at that time. And then he's able to share that with you. So I'm sure many of you have come home from a hard day of work and you put on your favorite record and you just feel naturally elated and happy. And it's really that he's rearranging your consciousness to connect with that emotional feel. So it's easy to find what happiness isn't. And disorder is one of them. This isn't my bedroom here. I'm sure it's looked like that sometimes. But one thing that a lot of us don't realize is that your mind is naturally chaotic and disorder is kind of a natural state for most of them. If your mind isn't trained or you don't have something to focus on, usually you'll run into your mind and just go into random mode. So we often think that our mind is very structured, but we're usually filling it with habits and other things, whether it's TV or talking. It's really filling it with other things. If we really sit back and just sit around, you know, things will come up that you maybe don't want to face and it's generally chaos. So this is a really simple example of a gem file. It's kind of a pet peeve of mine when I come into a project. And this gem file is not too bad, but you can see it's not in alphabetical order, which is something I really like. These groups are a little crazy. So it's the general sense that this is what I like to do, you know, put them in alphabetical order, order everything into groups. It might seem like a trivial thing, but for me, it gives me a sense of order. So if I come into a new project and the gem file is the first thing I look at and it's chaotic, there's something that just, from the beginning, makes me feel off. So it's somewhat of the broken window syndrome. If you go into a neighborhood, whether it's rundown or not, and there's a few broken windows everywhere, it gives a general sense of the neighborhood being rundown and that there might be more crime than there is. So we experience that in our code all the time. So all these little things kind of add up so that you feel like your code base is a wreck and that it doesn't feel like things are in line and you have no control over that. Especially if you're taking over a legacy application. And you know how most of us are initial thing is we want to rip and replace. We want to have control over that. We just want to throw out all this code we don't understand and just start anew. So when we talk about happiness, one of the major things in a lot of research that show where people find fulfillment and happiness in their day-to-day life and in their personal lives is the flow experience or the zone. We kind of all use that term a lot. Everybody experiences it, but we don't really think about it too much. Like what is that? It's kind of like sleep. I mean that sleep is the altered state of consciousness. It's a pretty amazing thing. It's a very similar thing. It actually alters your state of consciousness. So I'm sure we've all experienced getting in a sense of kind of those when we're in the zone and time just dissipates. You just lose all concept. You look up and it's six hours later. It's three in the morning and you didn't even realize it. Another thing that might happen is you lose, to really be in the flow is your self-consciousness. Your idea of self really dissolves. So there's kind of four main tenets to look at to help cultivate flow that you should be able to apply in your everyday life or at least reflect on these kind of characteristics of how you could potentially cultivate the flow experience. The first one is having a clear goal. The second one is having immediate feedback. The third one is being able to concentrate on the goal. And the fourth one is making sure your skill level is able to attain that goal and actually to accomplish that goal. This is a tweet that DHH tweeted about a week ago. And the tweet is, I've tried many answers for what do you get out of working on open source? But the truth is the act of creation is its own reward. So that's kind of a autotelic experience, which is really when you do something and the end result is for its own good. So the act of doing it is rewarding. You don't really need a goal. So there's a lot of things we do. I'm just hacking on open source or some kind of misguided things. You might do something without a clear goal and you might not be able to do it. But usually there's a combination of external factors and internal factors, especially in your day-to-day. So usually there's an external input, like say it's a feature or a client request, and you take that in and then you work on that towards that goal. And then it becomes an internal rewarding experience. So like I mentioned, a goal is the number one thing you need to be able to really cultivate this flow experience. So you have to have something very clear, definable. It could be a use case in most of our cases, but you probably have experienced if you've been coding for days and then you realize you're not really sure what you're trying to accomplish. Then the key thing is to be able to focus on that goal. So if you're not able to stay focused on that goal and concentrate on it, you're not obviously not going to be able to accomplish it. So I'm going to look at several techniques that we can do to help improve our focus and improve our concentration to stay clear on the goal at hand. The first one is freedom. Does anybody use that? It's a great tool and it basically just cuts the internet off. You can still have local access if you need to run a local web server, but you actually have to reboot your computer to enable internet access. You can't cheat. So I really like doing this and I'm sure some of you have experienced either on a plane flight or like yesterday had forced internet outage. It really helps you focus if you're working on your own and you want to do everything but that goal at hand. So I'd recommend checking out this goal if you want some sanity. Another technique is the Pomodoro technique. Most of you are probably familiar with that. Is everyone part of that or familiar with that? So this is something I use every day pretty much all the time. It's a very simple technique. Basically, usually you have a 25-minute time segment and you start the clock and you're focused on one goal, one feature in that 25 minutes. If you finish within that time, you're supposed to stay focused on it, refactor, reflect on it. And then you shouldn't have no distractions if email comes, phone calls. It's an easy way, especially if you're on a team, to avoid distractions. You can just say, I'm in a Pomodoro. Don't bother me. Another nice thing about it is it really helps assess whether you should keep on going. You might be working on a feature too long, you might have 10 minutes to go. We need to wrap this up. Or we're going to have to do a whole other 25 minutes. Is it worth really continuing? And then you might hit that 25 minutes and you're like, well, maybe it's good enough for right now. It's clean, it works, it's maybe not ideal. So I'm not going to spend another 25 minutes. So that's a really nice side effect of it. And I use this in my day-to-day life. I think it's become a little structured, but almost everything I do now is measured in Pomodoro. And that's kind of a way to blend and try to do the dishes. It's like, okay, I'll do them for 25 minutes. Then I'll move on to the next activity. If I'm going to practice guitar and I do four Pomodoras or meditate, I'll do a 25. So it's kind of nice to blend your work in life that way and it makes Pomodoras and work a lot easier and make a lot of sense. Here's just some applications you can try out if you want to try this out. Tomatoes is a really popular one. I don't tend to use this because it's web-based and I like to work offline a lot. Timebox is one I'm using right now. It does cost a little bit, but it has a nice interface and kind of shakes the screen when 25 minutes comes up. Focus Booster is a free one. I really like this one's a little better than Timebox because it actually understands the five-minute break. So you're supposed to work for 25 minutes then have a five-minute break. And Zone is a really interesting one. This was done by Voito, who was a apprentice from Slovakia that came and worked with us. The neat thing about here, we were doing Pomodoras and pairing on Pomodoras, and it kind of drove him crazy because he felt like he didn't really get into the Zone until about 25 minutes. So what his tool does at 30 minutes, it kind of lets you know, hey, 30 minutes has happened and you can just keep on going. So I use this every once in a while when I want to work at least 30 minutes. And if I just want to keep on going and stay focused, it's a nice effect. That's available on the App Store for 99 cents or something. Yeah, one called Pomodora that actually goes on your desktop and your test bar is really nice too. So another technique that I highly recommend is meditation. A daily meditation to help focus on things, concentrate. And the difference between meditation, we all kind of loosely talk about running. It's a meditative thing. Pretty much anything is meditative in a sense. But you're really more getting in that zone experience when you feel like you're meditating. When you're meditating internally, you're actually starting to steal that randomness and chaos I talked about. So it's really the only way to dive below the things we do that keep us happy and keep our mind straight. So it's a very simple technique. You just sit down and stay aware of the breath going through the nose. You can just sit down five minutes, ten minutes. You want to work up to 25 minutes, so it's a Pomodora. And just feel the sensation of the breath coming through the nose. And if thoughts will come up, you might have some brilliant ideas. Just kind of be aware of them and file them back. And you're going to see, you know, within a week of doing this every day, even if it's just five minutes, you're going to notice ability to concentrate a lot greater during your work. Oh, this turned out really dark. So this is a picture of Perrin with our friend Dave Hoover who came and visited us and Lake who's an audience as well. And so Perrin is a great way to stay on task. So if you have someone sitting beside you and you want to go check your email, that's one way that Perrin can help you get into the zone. Another tenant that's really important is, like I mentioned, immediate feedback. So ideally you want to have a constant, something that's constantly telling you that you're succeeding. You're getting close to your goal. You're almost there. You're doing okay. So this is where behavior-driven development or TDD really makes a lot of sense if you apply it in this context. So otherwise, you know, if you're working on a goal, the way you get feedback is by clicking on a browser or waiting for the client to find a defect. You know, it might be a weak or multiple minutes to even get any sort of feedback. So when you're driving through behavior-driven development, you have a clear feature that you start on. You write the spec for that integration text. You immediately have some feedback that it's failing. It's not working. You start working on your unit level test, R-spec level test, test unit, test level. And then you're ultimately getting the green that your integration is okay. So it's a very good way, you know, initially, if you're not used to TDD, it's more of a skill problem that you just need to get used to doing it. But once you really get used to it, it's more effective at getting in the zone and really having a fulfilling experience. And again, here's a better picture of Dave and Lake Perry. So this is a... Perry is another example of immediate feedback from your buddy sitting right beside you. And he's able to give you some sort of feedback. No, we're going down the wrong path. We're gag-shaving or something. So a key thing of attaining the goal is making sure your skill level is high enough to be able to accomplish the goal. So a lot of us might get frustrated or anxious when something seems too hard, or we might blame an external source, maybe the client or the manager or we might...a third-party package. And it's possible that that is a problem, but it also might be a problem that the problem is really our own skill set, that we really don't have the skills to accomplish this goal and we're just getting frustrated. So we're going to look at a few ways to improve these skills. So hopefully, your company supports this. So Corey likes to make the analogy of musicians performing. Like, if you're a musician and you spend a lot of time doing scales, very rote kind of repetitions to not only get a sense of long-term memory and muscle memory, but so that when you're upperforming, you can just let it flow and it's in your subconscious. And it would be quite a sight if you got up to see a band play. You paid $60 and they opened up with a major scale. It probably wouldn't be very exciting. But they've probably done a major scale 60,000 times with the experience of making music. So ideally, you shouldn't be doing learning fundamental skills on the job. You're basically performing when you're working on your client's time or your company's time. So hopefully your company supports something like craft and culture. There's a lot of companies that do that relevance and epiva and pivotal. They all allow the developer's time outside of billable time to work on open source or work on fundamental skills and encourage that. Otherwise, you have to do it on your own time. Code retreats are another example of very effective ways to improve your general skill base. Anybody familiar with code retreats or been to one? A few people. This is one we're having at the end of the month in Floyd. You guys are welcome to southwestern Virginia if you'd like to fly over. It's the only one right now that's actually two days. And it's in the country because it's just a small one stoplight town. So not only do you get to retreat in code but you retreat from city life. A lot of folks that come in from the city get nice quiet time. And the schedule is usually you spend a whole day focusing on one problem that's often Conway's game of life. And you do about six or seven sessions of an hour each. And then you rotate to a new pair. And at each hour you actually throw your problem away. So whatever code you're working on you can throw it in the trash. And so that does several things. It helps you detach from your solution or what you thought was right. It also helps you focus on very fundamental things. So each time you redo it you might test drive it a little different. You might create a different abstraction. It's a very effective way to come back or to step outside of your normal day to day production. Another good technique are Katas and Ruby cones. So Katas were originally created by Dave Thompson. Dave Thompson. Dave Thomas. Thank you. They usually take 10 minutes to 30 minutes and you're focusing on an algorithm or a very basic problem. And they might seem kind of trivial especially if you've been coding for a long time you're like, oh I could do this in my sleep. But you see people like Uncle Bob who's probably been coding longer than most of us has been alive. And he still does these Katas. He does them all the time. He seems to enjoy them more. If you want to check out his videos you can see some crazy sword wielding action of him doing some Katas. And Ruby cones are kind of a similar concept. They're little Ruby problems to help you learn Ruby. So I recommend doing these quite often. Another key thing that I think is daily practice. So anything you want to be good at you need to do daily for some amount of time. So whether it's even five minutes or if you try to learn VAM do a little bit of just focusing on VAM for half an hour every day. And what happens with daily practice is it really becomes part of your muscle memory comes into your subconscious and it becomes intuitive. So you might not be able to measure a lot of improvement. The day to day you're not going to notice a lot of difference. But after a month you're going to notice a drastic difference than you were a month before that. So in some period of time it reaches a point that there's some kind of magic that happens because it becomes subconscious and intuitive. And that intuitive feeling is really what you want. If anybody's coded for a long amount of time I've been developing for about 15 years and you just get this intuitive sense sometimes. Especially on a system that you're really involved in but even if it's a system I've never worked on I'll come in and someone will explain a problem and you just feel in your gut that something's not right. And there's not really any logical kind of to see how you got to that conclusion but it's often right. And especially with design and just general smells you'll just get an intuitive sense. And that's really what you want to cultivate on. So cultivation, learning how to practice. So really we're learning how to practice. Some people don't really know how to practice. It's really a skill just to be able to practice to be able to do kattas and be able to get the focus and discipline to do these. So you can be very determined. You can't just know how to do something you need to actually do it. So someone might look at a kattam and be like, oh I know how to do that and feel like you're getting some reward from that. You actually need to do it. So this is a nice graph that relates to a lot of concepts I was talking about. So on the left is the challenge level of an activity, of a goal. And on the bottom is the skill level. And you can see if the challenge is really low and your skill level is low it's just apathy. There's nothing to really do. As your skill level increases you may be bored at something. So we probably all experienced that and it might be that the job is just not challenging enough you need to find a new job or you need to ask for a promotion or move on to another project. If your skill level is really high you might be more relaxed, it might not be as boring you might be able to just tackle these small tasks and know there's something else to go to. As your skill level increases you can see if the challenge is really high this is where you start to get worried and anxiety. So we've probably all experienced that something that's really hard and we just don't have the skill so you're going to become anxious. So you might want to reflect maybe I need to improve my skills it's not something external that's causing this anxiety. And then if we have a high skill level and a high challenge we're going to get more to that flow level we're first going to feel like we're in control. We've got this under control and then you'll move into this kind of more transcendent on flow experience. So flows can also be addicting. So you don't want to end up like this guy. He's winning. He's winning. In his own world he's winning. So we've all experienced this as well as soon as you get control of something especially as the world around you is falling apart and you're able to focus on code and you're in total control and everything's ordered, everything's great you're going to shut down everything around you and that's all you're going to want to do. So this is something you want to be careful about and that's kind of where the antisocial behavior of not only computer people, I think they get a bad rap but most artists and musicians will just sit around for 8, 10 hours and just focus on that flow experience or getting into that zone. So what we want to do is look how we can increase the flow experience in other parts of our life. We want to focus on the same happiness that you get from programming if you apply that to your family life learn how to have hobbies and other activities. You're going to find the rewarding very similar. So concluding I mentioned four main things to focus on if you want to try to cultivate the flow experience in your day to day life. So that's having a clear goal so making sure that you understand the goal with your clients that everything's a clear use case or feature some kind of external end point that you have to work towards. And also making sure you have immediate feedback so making sure that when you're working on that goal you have some sort of feedback to know that you're succeeding at that. And also learning how to concentrate and focus on that goal so you can really stay tasked just on one goal and you're not moving around everywhere. And then also really assessing if your skill set is good enough to take on the challenge of that certain goal. So that's all I have. I'm Gustin Prudner. I founded a consulting firm called Entryway and we've been working on a product called See Leaf Lately that's a tool for CSAs and farmers to help distribute local food. My Twitter handle is Gustin and we have definitely have some minutes left. If anybody has any questions or comments. I think that's a good point. That's something I missed. Unfortunately my notes got lost when I set up. But that was the point I was going to bring up. When you look at this when I was working on that C++ program, the challenge was high. It was very interesting. My skill level was very, I'd done C++. I did it for about eight years. It's still pretty high. But there was something else missing. It wasn't just I wasn't skilled in the tools. The language itself had inherent problems. So if you have a high challenge in a high skill level in Ruby versus other languages, there's something different about Ruby. I'm going to get stuff done more efficiently. It's just easier to use and that's something that's not really brought up a lot when you talk about flow. Is the tool you're using or the technique you're doing, is that efficient enough to get to that flow experience? That can be an inhibitor to get to that upper quadrant. Do you think it might be because Ruby allows you to focus on the challenge rather than the minutiae? Yeah, I think so. You can really stay focused on the idea or the domain. You're not wrestling with other things outside of that. That's what we really enjoy about it because we really get to focus on the business domain problems, not how to multiple frameworks of doing stuff that people do all the time. What helps me a lot is having strokes. When I look back and I do something for days and I say, well, I'm doing this for every day since a month and it really helps me stay motivated and I can look back and see every day I made a small step forward to increase it. So saying that strokes helps me really get into some upper right corner. Yeah, it's a good point. When I do daily practice I've been using Cori's tool, Mercury app. It's an excellent tool. Everybody should go use it right now. But you can just it's a way to enter a daily activity and you can enter an emotional feel for that or how the day went and then just a little blurb. So I used it for multiple months straight, everything from guitar practice to daily meditation. We're using it and work now on our team to assess reactions to the project and it's great to look back and see it gives us a nice graph, a roller coaster the ups and downs and also get a log too of how things went and I love to look back at where I was, what I was working on and how I've improved. So at mercuryapp.com everybody should check that out. Make sure you enter my affiliate key. Does anybody else have any techniques they'd like to share? Ambition and ego set onto the ego I'm so clever and everything. It didn't help a new challenge. On the new challenge I got frustrated because my ego was so high and I just ran it to the wall but then when I switched to ambition it was kind of easy to get to the challenge. I think that's a good point because I kind of mentioned the idea of self after you accomplish these and you let go of the self and just go into this flow experience and let it happen and lose all sense of self-consciousness. Your ego should dissolve but afterwards you're going to have a stronger sense of self you're going to be a more complex person because you accomplish this goal but if the ego gets in the way it's going to not only inhibit the flow because you're thinking about yourself and how you're doing it for yourself instead of just the goal itself or the experience itself. When I talk to Max you mentioned the thing that makes him most happy is his kids. You hear that a lot and from your perspective how important is kind of things like family and life stability and all of the things that you just hear a lot particularly every become it's quite cheesy but I think it's quite associated with the happiness things Yeah, I agree I mean I feel like the resulting experience whether it's family or coding or doing music if you get in that flow experience and cultivate that you're going to have the same reward and the same benefit at the end and it's a part of being a balanced life so I have a three year old child and my favorite things to do probably over anything is hanging out with him and if you spend 20 minutes with your child it's just this connection and this kind of you lose track of time I only spend one Pomodoro day as all my child kids but I feel a similar reward when I hang out with my kids and I think it's part of being balanced otherwise if coding is your only way to experience this happiness you're going to be antisocial you're going to lose the power goes out what are you going to do ? Yeah, it's a good point and that was another point that I missed on my notes because I can't read them is that really what you're doing is making work more of a game you have goals, you have feedback and that's a lot of games are structured that way and that's why people enjoy them if you're playing Monopoly you have a goal you're getting feedback, you're getting money you're moving forward you're going to lose and the better your skill are the better you're going to get the game so it's very similar to life becomes a game which it is any other points anyone would like to share music in the headphones because I find listening to music continues to play calm music helps me zone in on what I'm doing but almost and because you're feeding some information into your ears but it helps you zone in from the far away It's a good point so the question was he was interested in how many people listen to music when they code and feel like they get into the zone experience for people who like silence around so how many people like music when they're coding how many people don't they like silence I find for myself I often like silence when I code but I do like music without words I have a hard time listening to music with words it seems to interrupt with the same coding sphere but I think music without words for me does facilitate that zone because we've all listened to music our whole lives so it kind of helps get you into that feeling that you're familiar with and then apply that to coding it's a good point because it's not the flow experience isn't dependent on the actual challenge or the actual skills it's your perception of that if you feel like you're skilled enough and the challenges you might not actually accomplish it and you can still get in the flow experience if you think you are it's a good point it's a good point it's a good point it's a good point it's a good question I could say something about that sure it's really up to you it can be hard to do and especially that's where the daily practice really helps and that's the difference between one point is with these 10,000 hours we talk about to master something and I always think Malcolm in his book he never really talks about he just equates if you do 10,000 hours and you master something which is true but what motivates those people there's a difference between the person that actually does it and why do they do it and it's just a point of your emotion and your intention and you have to have an intention and will to order that consciousness so to get in that flow and the more you do it and the first the more you take that step and especially a daily practice after a week or two it's going to be easier but it is hard to make it's like when you exercise and run every day as soon as you get out of the habit it's hard to get back tracking what you have fit into that time and so and realize that everything that you do during that day you've chosen to do during that day so you know a common thing that we say is track how much time you actually watch television and then decide whether or not that's a choice you're making so I I don't have a television because I like television so much and if I have something accessible I choose to prioritize that over other things so spend some time tracking it and figure out oh wow you know over these last two weeks I've chosen to fit 30 hours of television watching in do I really treat that as a priority over other things and if you do that's okay because it's something that is giving you a certain amount of value for yourself so don't think about having to fit things in think about you already fit them in now just prioritize yeah it's a good point because it's a trade off I mean people you admire that are whether they're prominent speakers in the ruby scene or something that you really admire about something they're trading something off so people you see very skilled whether it's a musician there's something they're not good at so you have to decide prioritize what you want to be good at and you can't be good at everything and that's okay you want to do that so you have to trade off things and whatever you focus on and really spend the time on you're going to be good at awesome just respond to an email don't even have to load a webpage yeah then your brain is fresh then you could work out for one and a half to two hours and then you could eight hours of work and you're still back home to the kids before they go to the weather and then I go to bed so I'm cutting off the time from say nine o'clock until eleven and I just go to bed and I get up at five thirty six and you start fresh day and you get your brain going it's a good point and that's a hard thing to do because we always want to do what we don't like to do or something that's challenging that we really maybe want to take on we always do that kind of last naturally a lot of times so when you're doing your tomatoes during the day you make the first two about the things that are kind on the list of things that you just have to get done that you've been putting off or something that you're working on daily just kind of the same way that you should do the riskiest things in a project first just get those out of the way yeah it's essential I've gone through years and years of a daily practice and I've gone through periods without that there's an empirical difference just in my general sense of happiness of accomplishment it's amazing meditation even if it's ten minutes, twenty minutes I get more done, it's weird it's a mind so that you're not filling it with things you don't need to do so the mind quiets you can really focus on what's important to you and I've just noticed a tremendous difference of getting more done in the day better sense of happiness just without having to have an external thing or goal to work on so I highly recommend it you have those external dependencies especially on social things in the world the more anxious we all get anxious when we see these wars and crazy things going on so we have to take that away and really have the internal focus and flow without any external dependencies a small little phrase that was coined by Mike Gerhardt is developer meditation so we're always trying to focus on our practice so why not practice how to focus yeah it's good yeah I think there's hashtag there were some people that were he spoke at Magic Ruby just about meditation and then he had a group of them trying to do that oh nice and then after that they were trying to do it for two weeks together and we're talking about it on twitter anything else sure everybody's hungry I appreciate your time