 for road safety, and so the President of the FIA. We have also Mr. Stefan Wallin, right in the middle, Vice-CEO of Ericsson Automotive, and who is bringing a different angle to the debate naturally with the business efficiency and business mindedness. I remember that Ericsson has built the reputation of wishing to be the cutting edge in research to serve its own businesses. So that cutting edge research could be interesting for us in the connected debate as well. It's our pleasure also to have the CEO of DECRA Automotive with us, Dr. Gerd Neiman. And well, I'm sure that DECRA is very well known, but I should say that recently we have seen that there is a growing cooperation between the World Forum and DECRA, and so addressing some of the policy and regulatory issues from a research and analytical perspective. So with this, I would like to ask our distinguished panelists to make an introductory remark in which you are also requested to consider the updates on the network car. And please elaborate whether, in your opinion, the main trends in vehicle innovations that would be relevant for connectivity, how these main trends can influence or serve future mobility demands, especially in light of the UN Sustainable Development Agenda. So Mr. Rantod was the keynote speaker, so we will let you rest a little bit, and we will start actually with a representative from DECRA, Dr. Neiman. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I hope you can understand me. My voice is handicapped. I'm glad to be invited to this important conference, to our symposium, and to discuss about interesting technical innovations together with you, with experts. Connected Cars has started already and will provide a number of options and challenges. If you are talking about networks, connected peoples, are very important, today we have a great opportunity to share important information and meet interesting people here. The foundation of my company of DECRA last to a period which was considered with a lot of innovations. The company started to use trucks. Horses was out, and the upcoming motorization was a big challenge to the 20s period. DECRA has met this challenge and started to become a growing organization with the development of new mobility. One reason we consult signs more than 90 years, drivers, organizations, public authorities on road readiness issues. We share experience out of our services with interest parties. Example is the road safety report, which is launched in different languages and published worldwide. The road safety report consists of a number of measures to improve the road safety. Based on this knowledge and experience, future mobility can be developed more safe. Maybe we will see mobility like this, but it is sure the future started now, every day. One of the most important goals for us is vision zero, and we have contributed on that a lot, considering the fast development and weak innovations. We are committed that PTI, periodical technical inspection, guarantee this high level of road safety, of vehicle safety during the whole lifetime of the vehicle, and we think it is very important. If we look on the vehicle development and its big steps, that we can see what's possible and what connected car contributed. Summarizing, I would say, the possibilities of connected car are diverse and could help, firstly, to improve road safety. To use this potential to improve road safety, we need to have harmonized rules and defined responsibilities worldwide, it is our opinion. The high level in road safety and environmental protection as well as in customer protection can be supported by a third party organization, but for this it needs information, data from the OEMs. Last year we have developed and launched a PTI scan tool which is used during German, PTI German, periodical technical inspection. We are convinced that it is a really important step for PTI in increasingly connected world. Thanks for my first statement. Thank you, Dr. Neumann, actually with your introduction you have already answered some of my follow-up questions, but don't worry, we will dig deeper then. So the next will be Mr. Stefan Wallin from Ericsson. Okay, I will bring a little bit different perspective as you said, so I will start by giving a little background to Ericsson and why we are here. I mean, Ericsson is not an automotive company, mainly of course we are communications and mobile technology company. And today I think we carry about 50% of the mobile internet traffic in the world. So therefore of course connected cars and the industries that connect, that is of course very important for us and since we see that we need to meet the demand for new traffic in our networks. We have a vision about what we call the network society and the network society is what we say that where everything that benefit from a connection, people and things will be connected. And we think that this connectivity will empower both people and society to then achieve better or to become better. In this context we are focusing or re-shifting our focus not only to work with mobile operators but also to work with industries that connect. I believe that we are or we believe that we are in facing an industry revolution if we go back like 10 years and looking back at where we are right now, I think we can reflect all of us that we are actually standing in for a dramatic change right now. And that change or one of the triggers of that change is connectivity. I think the ingredients of this revolution what you should call it is that mobile networks, the coverage of mobile networks and the quality of mobile networks has now become up to an inflection point where we can implement or industry can implement new businesses, new use cases on top of this infrastructure. You can implement also new use cases like safety for cars, et cetera. So that's why we see this big changing happening right now. Reflection is that the pace of change is really increasing. So we see that it took a long time to introduce fixed network to connect places and with the mobile network we connected people in the shorter time. We see in front of us a very quick change connecting industries and things. And I think what is more interesting in this change is that if we, the future is unknown. If you put it in perspective when the mobile phone came, I think we all thought it was great that we could use and call when we're not at home anymore. But if you look into how we use the mobile phone today we use it for so much more things than calling right. It's a minor use case. And if you would have asked us 10 years ago I think no one else would be able to see this in front of us. And the same thing will happen with connected cars. So when we connect cars we tend as humans to implement or think of use cases that are tangible and that we understand today but it actually will evolve. So the connected car will be a different animal than the unconnected car. So I think we have an exciting future in front of us. Just some things. What we see also is that when you connect an industry or a product like the car you open up for a different type of business around that car. It becomes a connected product. It's different from an unconnected product and you can suddenly implement both services towards the connected car but you can also implement new type of use cases like safety use cases. I think we will touch more on that but for instance for today we see the theme for today is safety and road safety. And in this context, Sean you mentioned for instance autonomous driving cars or self driving cars. And I think in order to implement that in larger scale we believe that connectivity is a foundation for that. Self driving cars will always be able to drive and handle the imminent traffic environment but with mobility and with analytics of data we can help self driving cars to get an improved line of sight to see what's further down the road a reroute from accidents, et cetera. And I think that will be a foundation and a neighbor for self driving cars. But I will stop there as an introduction and then if it has any questions I'm happy to receive of course. Thank you Stefan. We move on to Mr. Todd. Thank you. As I mentioned earlier, I mean we have a great opportunity to see the evolution of connected cars and the moving and the speed of our things are moved in the industry by having access to this Geneva Motor Show. Various information and communication solutions improve safety, efficiency and comfort of motorists on the road. Real time information. Can one drivers on hazards ahead on the road and allows them to avoid unsafe zones which is something absolutely unique and it's in a revolution in traffic. Automated and connected driving can significantly improve traffic flow, reduce congestion and navigate drivers towards the fastest and safest route. Incidentally, the US National Highway Transportation Safety Administration estimated that up to 80% of crashes may be prevented by the use of in-vehicle connected technology which is absolutely a fascinating potential result. In motorsport, I mean the FIA has a concrete experience of ensuring a strong coordination in piloting, testing and deploying new technologies. And I will give you a few examples. Video, radio, GPS, telemetry system are now a key part of every category of racing. Formula One drivers have now access to Wi-Fi connection in the car. This allows engineers to download important data on vehicle performance and analyze it to further improve technical configuration of the car. Another example of connectivity in motorsport is the technology currently used in the virtual safety car. I'm sure you have seen that watching a Grand Prix on TV. Going back on real life, connected technologies are embraced only when they meet expectations and the needs of consumers. A recent study carried out by the European Automobile Club members of the FIA shows that when buying a car, 76% of consumers are interested in connectivity for one, better safety, two, better fuel efficiency, and three, reduction in traffic. It is imperative that the vehicle has a security architecture that is robust and flexible and adaptive over the life cycle of a car. But I would like also to give you a few figures. In low and middle income countries, 82%, we have 82% of the world's population. 54% of registered vehicles and 90% of road traffic fatalities. In high income countries, we have 18% of the world population, 46% of registered vehicles and 10% of road traffic vehicles. So, I mean, in conclusion to this question, amazing progress has been achieved in developed countries. But unfortunately, we are talking about fascinating new technologies, but we must think that a lot of road car users, of pedestrians, of cyclists, motorcyclists, they don't have yet access to all that. And we need to make that changing. You will probably remember, and I invite you to see the film from Luc Besson, Safe Kid Life, which was launched a few months ago when you see that children to go to school, it's a fight in certain countries because there is not pedestrian road pass. And so on one side, we are split with two words, modern word, where you have access to all those facilities and developing word who does not know yet what is a safety belt, what is one helmet. And here is a serious problem because on one side we speak about those fascinating technologies, but in another part of the world, where 90% of the crashes are happening, they don't know that it does exist. So, that's for me the biggest fight we have to undertake behind all what has been done on new technologies. Thank you very much. We have heard a lot in the introductory speeches. The overarching concern about sustainability and within that, actually all of the three panelists voiced their concern for safety. And with regard to the huge achievements in safety improvement in the developed world, the concern about the growing divide between developed and developing countries in terms of traffic safety. We have also heard very interestingly about the drivers for new technologies and the speed, how much the speed has become very, very fast, faster than before. And then I remember decades ago when you learned basic macroeconomics, you learned that technological innovations in the military sector and later on in the space sector had not that fast but still had a very important impact on the future of the other technologies in businesses. In the automotive industry, actually what we could see that there is a big influencer and that is the motorsport, but there is another influencer, a new influencer that is the telecommunication, the communication sector. And a very new one and that is the society. So not simply through technology but technologies is changing through society because being connected is not simply a technological question but it's a way of living, a new style of living. Journalist Friedman a couple of years ago published a paper that my value is not in the number of friends and people I know but my value is to how many of them I am connected in a second. Well, this is a totally new way of living which is having an impact even on the automotive industry. At this junction I would like to open the floor either for questions to the distinguished panelists or to make a comment if you wish on these topics. So just raise your hand who wish to come in. Yes, we see a gentleman in the middle. Yes, please. You are very intelligent. First, we can take for granted that the automated car, the automated driving will be a reality soon. But is there not a longer term impact in the relation between rail and road? If invisible rails become the reality for the road, there might be within 10, 20 or 50 years, I don't know, a convergence, since this is one of your fetish words, a convergence between the rail network, the road network, development of twin vehicles, et cetera. So this is my first question. The second one is I will try to turn it into a question because you always prefer question. Is there a hidden logic behind the organization of events like this one? Because two weeks back, there was a press conference of the car show, the launching press conference. And most of the question of journalists were on the network car, automated driving, network, et cetera and the like. And no one in the show management mentioned that there was an event precisely addressing all these issues within the frame of the show. So I thought that it would be a service to mention that. I spoke like today and I said that there was an event precisely addressing these issues in within the car show. And the whole team of the car show totally denied it, said that there might be in the remote past some similar silly event, but surely not this year and I was totally misinformed. So for the car show, you do not exist. Then for you, the round table of yesterday does not exist because yesterday in the next room, there was a round table on more or less the same topic, autonomous car, automated driving. I still have the badge. It was organized by fleet. It's called the fleet meeting. It's a yearly third year fleet magazine meeting and it was on the same topic. So for the car show, you don't exist. For you, yesterday's round table does not exist. And if you had been informed of each other, probably the program would have been positioned slightly different. So that was my second question. What is the hidden logic? Because I am sure there is a logic. I am sure that I am the one who does not understand that logic. What is the hidden logic and the first one on the convergence between rail and road, especially for freight? Very good. Thank you very much. First, let's take your first question about the convergence between modes. But if you wish, you can add convergence between sectors because we witness a convergence between transport and communication as well. Who would wish to take the question? I can respond a bit, maybe you can continue. But already now I think that we see a convergence between, I mean we call it multi-module transport systems and we see needs where especially in larger cities when you need to solve transportation needs that they start to have solutions where you can handle multi-module commuting pattern. And I think that will be more and more, in the longer term this will become more increasingly importantly with the urbanization of people moving into large cities. We will not be able to sustainably build out roads and infrastructure in the same pace so that we can maintain a commuting pattern where everybody drives their own car from A to B. So maybe then you can combine the different transportation, means of transportation in one single planning and transaction as well. But you see we always, we have to law against or there will be one day the emergence of twin tracks or twin vehicles? Spontaneous is what the way I've seen it. But this is maybe more futuristic. But with the emergence of, I mean we already see now like car sharing or that type of setups. And I think in the longer term when you think about fully, truly autonomous drive then I would assume that you could actually call for a car for a certain path in that multi-module transport scheme. So I think those use cases probably will develop further given that you have autonomous drive coming in. Just to add a little bit, actually if you think of piggyback or combined transport or roll in the lunch trusses. Well, these are the traditional internal model ways of moving cargo or just to focus on moving the swap body. And if you follow what regulatory changes has happened recently, the new agreement between ILO, IMO and the Island Transport Committee of UNICE on the globally harmonized guidelines of packing transport cargo units, first of all containers is actually pointing into this direction that there is not simply a convergence because convergence, well, one has to qualify how you understand it, but towards more internal model and seamless connectivity for freight. That is for freight. And we have already heard for passenger mobility. There is another aspect actually because autonomous vehicles and automation is happening not only in the road sector, it's happening in the railway sector. There are mega projects with very innovative solutions and there can be lessons learned between the sectors or between the subsectors. Three years ago, when in UNICE, we were working on the promotional film to improve road safety at road rail level crossing. I had a stupid question to the representatives of the railways of UIC and the Swiss railways that, well, you know, in the automotive sector, there is so much going on with ITS and with automation and with technological solutions of preventing an accident or crash. For this road rail level crossing, is there any technology emerging? And at that time, the answer was no, no, not for us. A couple of months later, when we organized an event like this without any hidden agenda, but for policy dialogue, there was a professor from Australia who presented a project, a very simple project, where they use mobile phone communication to make sure that the train driver and the car drivers know that there is a train or there is a car or cars coming. Because usually when you approach the level crossing, you assume that there will be no train. So when there is this communication, very simple communication. Based on the presentation of the Australian professor, a couple of European countries invited him and started to pilot out his project. So changes happened extremely fast. And yes, surely there will be a convergence and there will be even new modes. Sure, we don't know yet how they will be. But with this very important question, what you have raised and how much the Geneva Motor Show is aware of what we are doing and how much we are aware of what others do. Well, I can assure you that everybody is aware, but maybe it was lost from the radar screen among the difficult questions they received. And yes, a lot of people and a lot of organizations deal with the same topics. And that's good because we learn from each other during those debates and the outcome of the meeting yesterday will be a very important information for us as well in our regulatory work. And later in the break we can continue the discussion. I would like to move on with our next question and our next question will be to Mr. Wallen. How you see the main drivers for the connected vehicles? Yeah, that's a good question. I actually think that there's several, I mean, there's several different areas that will drive, that drives the OEMs or the connected car. And some of them are longer term and some of them are shorter term. I think we actually performed, Eric's performed together with AT&T, I think it was last year, a consumer study looking into consumer demands for connected vehicles. And that clearly showed, just like you mentioned, that in that investigation, it was made worldwide, it said about 50% of the car buyers would actually consider to switch brand to a car if they could get to similar car, but another brand if they could get a good connectivity package. What that means, of course, that is a huge demand from consumers. So connectivity and connectivity services has become a driver for consumers and that, of course, is commercially important. But I also think that more importantly, we see legislation in Europe for e-cars and also in Russia, et cetera. So we see legislation for safety features. The connected car brings a lot of potential opportunities to improve safety and legislation adopts it. And that means that the car OEMs have to make the investments needed to connect the car anyway. And then, of course, if you have to invest in that, then, of course, you can utilize that also for other areas, not only the safety, of course, right? So that's good. And if you look in how they then can utilize this investment, I think there is two other drivers that are very important. And one reflection from me that comes from the IT industry is that in the IT industry when we develop products we always talk about the feedback loop in the development chain is extremely important. So at Eric's, when we work, we even have this grunt type of work how we were to get feedback from the product quickly back into R&D to improve the product constantly. One reflection from me coming into Automotive is that the automotive industry, as I can see, it has a definition, very long feedback loops because you create the car and then it takes several years and then you get it out on the market and it's first after a year or so that you can get feedback from service stations on how that car has performed. So I think that there is a tremendous opportunity to improve efficiency in the production cycle and the product planning cycle. So that's a driver and that I think must be very important for car OEMs. But then finally, which I think is the most important thing in the long term, I truly believe that the connected car shifts focus from the car as such to car services. I mean services around the car and that will actually be the one very important revenue stream for car OEMs and that's a very important driver. So that's the four categories I see. Thank you very much. Mr. Todd, how fast technologies will be in your opinion? How fast we are going to absorb all these new technologies? I will say that there are different level in your questions. Some technology is already available. I mean, we have been talking about mobile phone. I mean, mobile phone, anybody. I mean, probably the easiest access because I think that in the planet you have seven billion of mobile phone users and all of them have access to all the services. Then, I mean on cars, on cars you have about one billion of vehicles in the planet and only 10% are modern vehicles. And otherwise we must consider that average of age of the other vehicles are between 20 to 50 years old age. And as I mentioned earlier, I mean a lot of those vehicles do not have access to simple device like the safety belt. So I will say depending on the country and it's what I mentioned earlier in the developed country it would be very quick or it is already existing. I mean electronic stability control. Electronic stability control, I mentioned earlier in my speech in all the developed countries it's compulsory. In developing countries they don't know what it is. I think it's also very important to be very pragmatic and realistic. Very often it's something I've been addressing to manufacturers and also to her FIA clubs we need to inform better. Most of the road users who have access to the new technology, they don't know that it is available. So we should explain them. And I mean we have a way of explaining them what is the content of the car. And those who do not have access to it, I mean we must really make a strong effort with governments. You know in some countries you take Japan after a certain, I think it's seven years, you cannot use a car which is over seven years. So what happened? So cars go to developing country and it just creates a very bad situation which does provocate crashes. So on one side again to summarize the answer to your question in certain countries it is happening. But we must put a very strong effort to make that happening in most of the developing countries with low and middle income. Well with what you say, it leads to my other question to Dr. Naiman about the development divide and who is going to be the beneficiary of new technologies. Are we talking about the future only for the developed countries or would it be a realistic future for the developing countries? Or they would just pay for it because the new technologies will be in the vehicles but they wouldn't be able to benefit from it. How could they catch up? Connected car for my opinion is a long-term program, long-term process. This process started maybe 20 years ago. IT, technology, communication technology, car technology was a driver from this development until now. Important will be the next step, connected infrastructure. And it is a real challenge also for development countries. Of course also on the other hand a big chance for new businesses. For countries which will start now a modern infrastructure program, is it a chance can realize maybe a big step on a higher level? Connected car is for my opinion also a nook lead for a lot of new business ideas. Also a chance for startup companies, worldwide. And it's also a win situation not only for the developed countries, it needs for my opinion clear rules, harmonized rules worldwide. How it will be on detail, it is difficult to say maybe it needs crystal ball. And what challenges do you see in this process with the fast changing technologies for the whole world and if there are any recipes for solutions? Maybe we continue with Dr. Naiman as you have already mentioned one of the challenges. Yes, with the view of the smartphone revolution for my opinion it was a revolution, how it's changed our life. We haven't time, we can't wait. If we would like to use these chances for new mobility, for more road safety, for environmental production, it needs, I say that global harmonized regulation also for the market. So, harmonization. Yes, the way I see it and the challenge that we put in front of us is that we need to realize that the IT industry and the automotive industry they have different pace of change. We need to find the mechanism how we can renew existing cars, I mean the technology. So we need to establish a technology base where it's possible to add new features from IT software features or services to cars already out there. Otherwise, I mean the problem as you pointed out that the lifespan of a car is I usually say like 15 years you say even 22 longer, but regardless it's very long and if that is the renewal pace then of course we will be in trouble. So we need to find the mechanism to be able to update cars that is already on the market with new features. I mean I could not agree more to speak about harmonization and then you know we are facing a revolution with new technologies like electric cars. We know that the limitation of electric car is the autonomy and recharging time. So probably to I mean to see how you can improve batteries in order to have a better autonomy and also to diminish the charging time. Then you have other technologies like fuel cell and you will see around some amazing car then you have autonomy which is much higher which is between 500 to 700 kilometers. But here and the recharging is about three minutes but you need to be able to have access to the suppliers who will allow you to recharge your car then probably. And you need to be able to buy it. Sorry? You need to be able to buy it. But once you buy it you need to be able to recharge your car. Yes, yes. Well I see that there is a gentleman who would like to come in at this stage. We have heard that there is different speed, definitely different speed for technologies and for countries, please. Hi, hi Roger Lonto with strategy analytics. So with all due respect I was wondering if the panel could speak with a little more candor about the real demand or lack of demand. What I find is car companies are not interested and are being dragged kicking and screaming into car connectivity. Consumers are not really very interested in it either. And the carriers are even not particularly interested at a certain level if you look at the fact that European carriers for implementation of the E-call mandate sought a dormant sim so that those cars would not be signaling on the network unless they actually hit something. So I don't see a lot of enthusiastic demand for vehicle connectivity. So in that context what are the real obstacles for getting to a connected car world? A lack of interest from the carriers, the car companies and the consumers. How do we overcome this? Without just mandating it and forcing it. Wow, great comment. And definitely this was what we hoped to see that we will not agree on everything because otherwise it's not a dialogue. And there are lots of issues, definitely sensitive issues and those who have the courage to raise them might feel a little bit even, you know, marginalized. So thank you very much for raising it. And I wonder, Dr. Neiman, would you like to respond to this? Yes, I think also it was a good and great comment. It is my turn. Mr. Wallen. No, Roger, nice to see you. If your predictions are correct, I think it's a tricky question. Actually, I don't fully have the same view on the demand. I mean, the way I see it is that there is a huge demand. If you just listen to the industry and when you walk around the connected car seems to be the topic everywhere. But if I should comment on what I see as some limitations, I think that one challenge we have that we have to overcome is that we need to make sure that they connect today. I mean, there are rules around connectivity and how your price connectivity, et cetera, that will limit the ability to actually have a flourishing service layer on top of connectivity. And that is, of course, the reason because network connectivity has been the business around the operator connectivity has been based on, I mean, internet browsing from users, consumers, right? So with IoT, you have totally new use cases where you will have certain devices that use minimal amount of data, very well done. So I think the challenge for us as an industry will be to find business models where you can utilize connectivity for services with completely different demands on connectivity. And there, I think we need to work together because this is still ahead of us, this transformation. And it requires the help of operable operators. And actually, you haven't mentioned who are your customers because are the customers simply the vehicle owners or the customers, the traffic managers, infrastructure managers, who might benefit from easier traffic management or authorities who might have more data and more information to better design future mobility. So yes, it's high speed change. The whole architecture of mobility is changing and technology is coming into this. Now I wonder how future periodic technical inspection will be organized if while I am driving my car, my IT part of the car is totally changed because something is being uploaded into my car. And then who will be ensuring that it remains safe and environmentally friendly, et cetera, et cetera. So there are lots of issues we will have to discuss and these are the most critical things for us in the harmonization of regulations because we are behind time. At this stage, I would like to give the floor for our panelists for one main final message. They would like to leave behind. And I'm sure that they will be available during the day or at least during the break for further discussions. So Mr. Todd. I'm not going to speak about connectivity. I'm going to speak about the global situation on road safety around the world. And everybody will agree with me that it is one of the worst pandemic. We have 1.3 million people who die on the road every year. We have 50 million people who are injured. And this pandemic, we know how to deal with. It's around education, around law enforcement, around road infrastructures, around vehicles who have been carrying quite a lot of vehicles today, and around post-crash care. So on one side, I was also mentioning earlier, we have access to amazing technologies. But it is not enough. So we need to engage governments on road safety in order to be able to achieve what I would call vision zero. And it is possible. So that's, for me, the most important things I want to conclude. Thank you, Jean. Actually, what you said here is the glove for a future debate on how technology and the industry will be able to have those who wish to see that no more deaths on the roads and no more injuries on the roads can happen. And to reduce fatalities by 50% from now till 2020, which seems to be the sustainable development goal of the UN. So here we have already a customer who says that, hey, I want technology, but then you reduce deaths on the roads. And technology is to respond. Mr. Waller. Yes, OK. So we talked a lot about short-term. Let's broaden all. I mean, I think short-term, the connected car is reality, even though not all of us agree. And it's driven mainly by internal efficiency at the OEMs. I think that they can improve their new type of services. But let's look at the longer perspective, because I actually think that the connected car, autonomous cars, new car ownership models will, of course, be extremely important for society, for a new society, where you can start treating traffic as a system from a society point of view and not only a lot of cars running around. So we can better plan for avoiding a better plan for smart cities where we avoid congestion, where we can solve the need of transportation in multimodal ways, et cetera. So I think the connected car is a tremendously important piece for going forward, especially now with the environmental crisis in front of us. The connected car is a piece of the puzzle to solve, I think. Thank you. So connected car is a piece of puzzle. And you are so alluded to that that the connected car is actually more than autonomous vehicles, because it brings more benefits than simply autonomous vehicles. That's one element. And that might be further down the road, but connectivity is already available. Well-spoken, yes. Thank you. Dr. Neiman. Short final statement. On the one hand, I'm sure connected car can be, will be an important step for more road safety, environmental protection, customer protection. And on the other hand, I hope we don't lost the fun with the connected car. Wow. Yes, it's a very nice closing statement that, yes, a lot of interesting benefits and important sustainability benefits are being promised with connected cars, but don't forget that some people like driving. Thank you. Thank you for your participation, and see you after.