 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today we are joined by the legendary Mike Mangini Mike Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me Bart. Happy to be here. Yes So I don't think you need any introduction really, but I think just to give people a little bit of a primer Just I have a list that's in no particular order Berkeley professor for a while You were in dream theater. You played with Steve Vai annihilator extreme Educator you have dvds you have books world's fastest drummer five record holder From o2 to o5. I think that's probably Not to make you blush or anything, but Yeah, you are a monster drummer, but I just love that we're gonna talk about some gear and some some building of the drum set, but you're also very involved in the brain and How you know neuro feedback and neuroscience and how it all relates to Rhythm and drumming so Anyway, Mike real quick. Let me explain that people are used to having these Unbelievably detailed long gear deep dive episodes that are three episodes deep And I think for the sake of your time. I want to maybe look at One of your earlier kits, which is very interesting and then some of your newer kits But I want to hear more instead of the you know, how long is that tension rod? More about how you design these sets Okay, and and I think I'll throw it over to you here first So up on the screen right now. We're looking at a video right now of you playing with extreme in 1995 How did this cut this kit come to be with the rhodo toms because I love rhodo toms personally There are a few factors in the design and birth of this drum kit Yeah, so the first one is musical everything's musical for me no matter what View is taken or assumed it is a musical Source from the beginning. So when we look at this, you need to know a few other factors I was trained and very active in my Towns public school system and I was fortunate enough to have who I think Might be the single greatest drum teacher that ever walked on the planet And I can back that claim by saying you see if people agree with this or not, but that the man explained why He was Suggesting that I do certain things and he showed me how things worked. So my will was changed I became involved. It wasn't I said so so do this and Do this because I said so and I'm the teacher above was opposite of that It was it's unbelievable respect from him for all of us. I was ten ten need to respected me He's like so who are you? What are you? Okay? This is how your hand works. So how the arm would show me anatomy books So that's what well part of how I became this thing. I am right now But anyway because of because of the school system Orchestrally trained drummer and I played in the marching band in high school So if you look at my drum set, you're gonna see the Tri-toms that we had other people have four drums that they walk around with a quints You know five drums in the marching band. So that particular kid looking at is an apex shape starting with a six inch Rototom in the dead middle and then to the left is an eight to the right is ten So it's an apex it's the highest pitches in the center The next pitch a little bit lower is to the left But the next pitch lowers to the right and then the next pitch lower is that's lower is to the left And then the next one's at the right and the next one to the left and the next one to the right So you have seven drums from the middle Going six and then on the left side you get the the eight the twelve Yeah, can I even remember what I had and and then the 16 and the right on the right you have that But the six is in the middle, but then you have that the ten inch Than the 14 and then the 18 so it's an apex shape it comes from One day I was in marching band and I thought why can't I set my drums up like this because then I can follow The melody in the music the melody in the music so by the time I joined extreme Cable high hats were invented and I thought this is that I mean I saw the clouds open up my Pupils dilated things in my body things in my body started to do things. I didn't understand I'm like this is who I'm supposed to be I think this is it right here So you could tell I was I'm still now. I'm smiling the excitement was there. This is a musical decision, but I needed The artillery behind that I needed the gear to exist You know you people could talk about art all they want, but I'm sorry, but the art does not exist without the The way to manifest it if you don't have a way to manifest it. It's useless. It's in your head You might as well be you know a closet dweller been the greatest musician ever in your own closet. It doesn't work Yeah, so Don't care what art you have you need a way to express it Which is why gosh the music programs are so important and support is so important fire You know resources, but off that subject this particular Roto Tom kid is an apex shape designed for the music and Design so I could follow some of Nuno Benton courts riffs exactly as he played them soloists don't play Two notes per I mean two hits per note. Excuse me like Like a drummer would go around a drum set that's not how yeah the other instruments of it that You know they play Riffs and so I wanted to follow them. What made you choose Roto Tom's you're not going for gimmicks you chose this What what made you choose this kit? Well initially all the Roto Tom's were around when I was you know like back in the days of a Methuselah a long time ago, they were around and I had them because they were affordable and because I was short and could place them in places I could reach them that was it that was that was the initial but then it came to my attention that I could shove a Microphone right up underneath them and get a very isolated sound from the bottom in a very Open drum tone Yeah, and then you as you can see in that picture my symbols are all Wacked out to the right and left so those higher, you know Roto Tom's didn't have any symbols near them So there wasn't symbol leakage did it factor into your decision at all And what we'll keep moving here with like bass drums and different your mixes of symbols But it did it factor in that this looks awesome from the from the audience to see this setup and it's very unique Yes, you can see the drummer and the nice and low and that's why I have the chrome bass drums I want a drum contest. So I won All that stuff even though I was using Roto Tom's anyway, and I was like well This is the perfect drum company. It was a run up with Remo They they make the heads I use and they make the drums I use gee this is kind of cool Though it is it is a it's an optics thing as well Yeah, okay, so that's a good explanation though So those are Remo bass drums. So this is really a full Remo drum set. Okay, cool. Yeah, what's your thoughts on that? Remo shells I did an interview and they and with Remo years ago and they were kind of like yeah, the shells They were a fine and then they kind of moved on did you like them? I didn't get much details from Remo themselves about them Well because what they're made of it doesn't seem like it's a desirable thing like it's made from the Made from the the cardboard Rolls, you know like the like toilet paper rolls, but giant that cover and I think they used resin and everything But I will tell you when I got the drums and tried them what I liked about them was that there weren't Overtones it was like a real nice sound for recording like doom and that was it You didn't have to put tape on them or anything so every look at everything everything has its pluses and minuses and anything Yeah, so alright Mike so jumping to a newer setup here. I believe this was if this was a What what year would you put this set at in your in your history? Was that 2010 2011 12 kind of era? this was Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah because when I when I see a joined dream theater for the 2011 A dramatic tour of events touring cycle. I used the silver silver kits which was this one and One painted by nub who works for American choppers it was silver like but just had a design on it like gray gray So anyway, yeah, that's a lot of stuff there It is a lot of stuff so again for people who were just listening I mean now we're getting into the like the earlier rototom kit was very cool apex, but it was like kind of like, you know It was not basic by any means but for you it compared to this it was more of a basic setup So now we're getting into things hanging above you. I know Terry Bozio was an early influence on you So he's like just kind of describe what we've got here. We've got things hanging above. We've got chimes We've got you're surrounded. How did this come to life? Well that because again, I was trained orchestrally So all of these things have a place in the music. I mean if if and I like heavy music I like I liked I like classic rock. That's heavy. You know, I like metal that's not newer stuff, but that's more You know 70s 80s era kind of a thing but anyway, the point is and there's a low note hit It's not a place where you hit a little six-inch drum that sounds like a chihuahua barking Okay, and so and so when guitarist I played with would go, you know fly high up in the neck or Pianist fly high up in the upper registers. Well Giant drums that ring a lot weren't appropriate to cop their notes meaning match their notes and mimic it Especially if it was fast because the big drums have big drum heads and ring a long time It's just a big rumble and a big mess. So I have an orchestra of drums in a range and sound up above are the Pearls cannon toms referred to as octa-barns With the way Tama makes But I and I called them the hamster tubes of the tube drums because it was fun and Humorous to me. So those are, you know, though, those are not all the highest pitch though They're actually the I think the second one Is a lower is lower than my middle tom-tom like the 12-inch drum So it's not like they're all higher pitched. They're just a particular group of drums that have a sound and Yeah, there's a high pitch there, but my six-inch drum is actually the highest pitched in the kit So I had the range that the toms range from six to 20 Which gave me that orchestral thing And so I just tried to put the cymbals the crash cymbals a big thick metal things up up and away Which is what I did and then there was percussion in the music and wind chimes and Stuff, you know sound blocks and whatever the heck. So, you know, I had to push those aside and and There you go. And yeah, but but the multi bass drums That's something that that I developed when I was teaching at at Berkeley I Wrote music and I just heard bass drums That when they were played fast Were tighter sounding and that when they were played very slowly and tried to move air That tight little sound didn't float my boat So I wanted a big bass drum that went boom that I wasn't going to play a lot of notes on so That's why the 26 is there and it's set up on a slave pedal So, you know, I could blast it off to the side and then I had an 18-inch drum Because I would play ghost notes with it while my left foot played lead notes either on the 22 or the 26 Because I trained myself to do so I didn't matter whether I played right or left because I trained my body Then to accept whatever my brain Whatever my brain, it's like MIDI. That's like my brain my body Well, I have MIDI chords attached a sign to sound and just move a thought boom just moved it So yeah, that's what it is. It's different pitches in the bass drums for tonality it's a bunch of toms to match the you know, the The note area an octave that was being played and then the cymbals were there because it was the same thing I have Stacks where I would reflect certain tones in pitch, but not exact pitch That's a difference like you mentioned Terry his drums a pitch They have actual notes mine or not mine in ranges and I play differently Then then he does when he's on that kid He's literally playing the exact correct notes like it's a glockenspiel But I was trained as an again an orchestral guy. So I know mallets. I can play the glockenspiel I play marimba I played xylophone and that's why I was able to write in my everything for a solo record that I released You know four months ago five months, which is great. Which is amazing. Yes Yes, yeah, thank you. So yeah, so that training that that's and this is this we're talking about this kit Well, I'm spending a bit of time on it because it has more stuff than the other ones. Yeah, yeah The real thing I that keeps coming to my mind with all of these with your huge drum sets and just drum sets in General from like a mega drummer is how do you go about? Designing this setup. I know the reason why but is this a pen to paper? Kind of like I want it to look like this I imagine you work closely with Pearl to do this But like when you're ready to switch over and to a new set for a new tour cycle or whatever switching to a new band How does that happen? How do you get from your brain to this huge drum set? I write things down because I believe Played I was on to something saying that everything comes from shape and form and I've done a lot of I know I've studied some of my background, but I am more into physics really Then than anything at post cognitive science studies, you know, how does how does everything work? What it what is this? How does it go so? Without getting into that too much. I write things down because it comes from ideas and images And then I have to work with it. So that means that I throw away a lot of pieces of paper with a lot of scribbly notes I don't care how many pieces of paper I have to make mistakes on and crumple up and throw away I just keep at it and keep at it because I must Have that completion from this thing. I'm not even quite sure about it was like I know I got to be something on the drums I know I know Something's calling me. It's like I'm it's like it's not electro magnetism It's not a real magnet, but it is it works like a magnet Calling is pulling you and it's made of information. It's actually made of information Which you can't even you can't even find it. Where is information in the universe? This is crazy fun stuff to talk about but it's pulling me and the thing is yeah, I don't know enough I don't know and I and I don't want any presuppositions. I guess is the word I don't want to presuppose to think that I know what I don't know things, you know this stuff. I Think is okay. I think I got this one, but still I always keep a little bit open going. I might not have it right You know, there might be a little something, you know, it's it's interesting How do you take that to write it down? Well, and then you write it off Well, I've got I write it down write it down and then I try things and then I you know I have existing equipment usually I usually have existing equipment and then like a lot of musicians and drummers do you sit there and It's like you're playing with Legos and you realize you can't position things a certain way which yields Necessity breeds invention, right? So I've invented a lot of things for my drum for my endorsement companies I've come up with things because of necessity like do you have a clamp that does this do you have a G like You'll notice what you could notice now if you look back that a lot of pearl drum is their racks would be connected by a small piece That was yeah, that was my deal. That's I did that that's art called an RJ 50 and you know, it's not like It the 50 people are usually gonna give me any credit or mention my name and I don't need it frankly but the thing is it's would be nice to people know that and the cable hi-hat development and a lot of things a lot of things came about From my necessity because I did things so differently that it gave pearl ideas And it's the same thing with zildjian and these trash former that came from I couldn't Stack symbols without them creating a vacuum and with the more cracked a symbol was especially an oriental type The more cracked it was the more the symbols wouldn't create a vacuum. So I was like I Once circumstance led to another and I had a bent symbol and the rest is history It became the trash former. So it was like out of necessity for my Desire to fulfill these musical things that I couldn't quite figure out because I think if I could have figured it out Intellectually that means I would have already known and I didn't know I didn't know I was doing all this by trial and error and pen and paper and Throwed it away starting over well It lets it lets the next generation then know that alright This has been done and then they're gonna push it forward even more and that's how our instrument goes from the early jazz days of you know, you know playing traps to Something as huge as this drum set where it's it's just pushing it for and then the way your brain works and the music and It's just it's just incredible to see the evolution of our instrument So the way we're kind of doing this is early Let's say middle and then now why don't we hop over to what you're playing Now and look at your current kit, which is a beauty and we have behind you So this one that we can switch to the real deal in the room Set up. So what do we have here? so so this this is Not the full Kit with all of the bass drums and all of the toms. It's missing the six and eight inch toms Which I've been thinking about putting back But in a different spot than they ever were because of my mix wave product You see I designed the mix wave virtual kit of mine in the Roman temple and Because of the necessity of like, well, how am I gonna fit all the toms? Well, this that's just a virtual instrument that people can have all of this right with my sounds But the reality of this kit I would put the six and the eight up near the Near the center one. So it just has the 22 inch kicks. It's missing a couple times But I do have extra KT 10 rolling pedals. So if I do need to Use other kick sounds I can I always put it in the roll and TM to and it's my sound I can I can it's you Yeah, yeah, I can Sample it. Oh, no You know, I'm a fan of getting some help with my drum sound by Layering a bit, but it's got to be from my microphone and my sound and it's just like it's just like an additional microphone without the bleed Yeah, of course. So like I'll record it separately and then just kind of You know little punch. Yeah. Yeah Layer it in but it's not like, you know, so-and-so's database of kick drum sounds and it's like Matching mine and basically almost replacing it. Yeah, yeah, not not not quite that but is it my my playing is so even that Dynamics make it sound like a drum machine. So I have to like I gotta watch that. Yeah, sure But it's what's the finish we have on this set here. It's beautiful that that's like BMW blue. It's car paint Pearl Pearl spared no expense for my drum kits with with expensive car paint. So That's what that is and it's from They get it from house of colors So but but that was the inspiration was was that was that blue? Yeah, and that's what it is the the rims are brushed chrome Which that comes in handy during video shoots and stuff because early in my early days And the would video shoot started to happen. My drums would get sprayed the chrome would get sprayed with stuff So you've got this monster drum set, but you're actually kind of switching things up now And you are doing a series of master classes Coming up. We're recording this January 16th Just so people know kind of the the time frame of this but right now you're starting these off So tell us about it. What's going on with the master classes? Well, the master classes are a describe him as a premium High-powered educational event because in that setting now you got to remember I taught group classes at Berkeley for 10 years And I was a counselor, you know with the The cognitive science and that that stuff comes into play. So it really studied how people Yeah, how people operate and in this setting The confidence that people in that in classes with that setting get is it's unbelievable because they're seeing their own Issues being solved with other people like not just them or not just one person, but with everybody So they realize that this solution actually works and they always have questions that another person in the class is asking and When everyone gets to see everyone else's solutions being solved, but it's powerful It's really powerful Especially when so many don't think that they can do something and I'm standing up. They're going. Yes You can it's just a little blockage in your perception of it So let's let's clear that out clean the slate and start and start, you know with the fundamentals Which is why beginners can go. Oh, so that's an interesting That's that's very good to bring up because sometimes you look at these You know masterclass and a beginner you go whoa, whoa, whoa I don't think I can handle that so I'm glad you said that because Maybe it's good for people to start off on the right foot. Of course it is and get a good understanding of what to do. Yes Yeah, because they don't form bad habits bad habits are really hard to rewrite you Yes, you can't you know the human person doesn't work like a computer. You can't just drag a memory to trash I mean We've all been I'm sure everyone alive has been traumatized in some way You'd like to drag some of that to trash, but you can't do it so you but you can there are ways of Kind of circumventing that thought from going in the wrong direction and you can kind of make stronger memories Anyway, without getting too deep into it I've spent a lot of time with it and I apply that stuff in the class People are happy and that's what they are their masterclasses because I essentially people are gonna save years off of their lives and again, it's they're not Populated by too many people because then you know, you're not gonna charge that much money If you're gonna charge money people have to get their money's worth What are they paying for they're paying to save a decade of time? But it helps to have other people in there, but not, you know, 50 people. Yeah, too many Well, I know I'll put a link in the description people can see the schedule I know you're coming to Cincinnati where I am soon going way back So what was your jobs early on before drumming? It sounds like you're doing some some cool stuff there Oh, yeah, I was a dishwasher. Let me tell you smelling Brock smelling the worst thing. It was smelling the cream of broccoli soup in a pan stuck there. I had to Stop myself from heaving for like 49 straight minutes. So that's the guy was glamorous and I've learned quite a lot Oh, well, but it's it's a noble job. It's very good But but I mean, but you know, but for me, you know, I whatever I'm just yeah You are I'm so you have a whole category and there's yes. Well, the reason this came about is because With the scholarships offers that I was getting in the in the mail for every music college there was It was looking it was it was pretty I'm a pretty fortunate person But my father said no, you're not going to school for music And why dad because you can already do it You already won every contest in the United States. Why would I why would you? Go to school for something you can already do. So I mean, I understood what he meant and he's correct on that level But you know as musicians know it's more that the networking that gets you the job It's not about being The best dish spinner because you can spin it faster than someone else or whatever It's really not fully about that. I mean the skill is important, but you got a network, right? So anyway But but I listened and I went to school for accounting And software engineering and when I was in school for software engineering I was also In the The higher level math classes because I was going to major in mathematics. That was his compromise He's like go major in mathematics in this school and then minor in music And I was like, okay. So anyway, the point is it was important though. It was important because What I saw in those math equations and what I saw With the programming became simple not complicated simple. It became binary It became on's and off's and then I looked and I thought I can program my body And I can assign things to it. It's just like before I even knew midi This this training and this thought that came into my head was like, I know I can do this Like I got to figure out that became rhythm knowledge Which is why rhythm knowledge is so different it because it's bare bones on's and off's it sounds complex and you know, if you just read Even the stuff I can talk about and some other things I know it sounds like it's all you're deeply intellectual And I'm like wicked smart, you know, whatever. No, look come on stop. I'm just I'm motivated I I I learned things that made sense to me and that were calling me and pulling me that I had some some Some I don't know. I got it. Yeah. What do you say? But what is it? I got it and then I didn't but I didn't get everything and in fact most of it But I got what I needed to do this and so That's what it was. It was the binary It was it was the machine level language programming that really changed me and then I I dropped out of that college because a professor pulled me aside after school and said you need to leave the school You can't be here. Why are you here? And the reason he said it to me is because I joined the jazz band And it was a business school and I was I just tore it up like crazy Uh, I auditioned and did a drum solo or they didn't know what to make of it because I had you know It was yeah, I had a lot of chops and stuff, right? But and I and I could and I could site read it and I made Um, I won the highest position jazz and high school could win in the country So I you know, I was I could do it, right? I wasn't Not a greatest and all that But I was good enough and enough to freak them out and they're like you shouldn't be here, buddy And I was like why? You know find me a job. Come on. Yeah Yeah, so anyway, uh, but then I Sure went into the music thing and you know, and then I left the music thing For the software thing and then I left the software thing for the music thing And then I left the music thing for the teaching and counseling thing And then I left the teaching and counseling thing back for the music thing. No, here I am again. Do we do it? Yeah, really, but and then I mean you do though from it seems like you're applying your interest in this in knowing and kind of understanding, you know The brain on a it's just a part of who you are and I think that's becoming more and more common and and understood with our instrument that like You know listening to how you feel and and and what's going on with with your body and your, you know The neuro feedback is becoming more and more accepted and I'm saying from personally like people are listening more to those episodes That we've done on it and I take that as a sign of like, oh, maybe this isn't so Um, whatever, you know, woo-woo as it used to be Yeah, well, well, but here's the thing with me and I want to make this clear that I need To fulfill a puzzle like I have to complete a puzzle if that makes any sense and the thing is I don't always know What the final picture of the puzzle is I just want to gather pieces and I have some idea of it I don't know that much. That's why I have to study so much. So I need to fulfill everything like my my dvd the grid Everything that has ever been played on an instrument Everything that can be played and anything that could ever be played in the future is essentially on one page that I made is categorically speaking not with all of the elements as I made this thing I set this thing up like the periodic table of elements and chemistry like everything's there But the point is I had to complete I had to physically learn All the time signatures all the subdivisions every major style there was and I'm not talking just learn a few songs I'm talking like really study it for years. I had to learn all the different dynamic levels I had to learn all the different phrasings and Figures I had to learn the notes. I had to learn everything enough about enough about everything to fulfill this puzzle and fill it in and then I did the same thing as far as The education thing is concerned because I didn't go that all I didn't go all in on cognitive science I went in enough to help me know aha This is why I could do this and that person can't and this is why that person could do something and I can't do it So the so the whole thing was seeing what you know, I got a Complete that I got to make this puzzle of me too and I mean it's all of these things like oh no And I don't even know what all of them are. I got to figure it out so With cognitive science. I took it to a point. It's more about a grid out what a human person Might be and that's deep because there's oh my my bookcase is a full of philosophy books and And there's all kinds of uh different sciences and opinions and Stuff, you know, and it's like okay It looks like intellectual stuff and it just might be that on some level, but I'm not You know, I'm not that wicked smart. I just kind of know I know how to figure things out like I find solutions to intangible things So I I I can't fix I can't fix the the the second door In any of the doors in my house. I go like that. I'll bend the screws. I'll bend the hinges I'll I'll I'll say I'll call the door names as if it's the door's fault I'm like I won't say any words, but I'm like I'm not I'm not good at it. Okay So I'm not you know, but I know this sounds like what you're doing And I think a lot of us can do is is look at something that's a pretty heady Kind of like deep people have their entire career They have masters in it and you're taking the things that you need and you want And applying it to what applies best for you because I was explaining to you before and I've told people on the show Before I have filmed psychology seminars for continuing education courses for years and it's you go You said I film because psychologists have to take Classes to keep their license and I'm the guy in the back filming them There are some pretty dry and boring subjects. I will tell you after doing it for six years You know, but it pays the bills But there's some that pop up where I go. Oh my god. That's fascinating or wow I'm gonna apply that to my life. So it sounds like you're very good at I like that. I like that I want to apply that and yeah Yeah, and it may it made me unafraid to you know buy a book this thick Like Read or skim through it and not worry that I didn't understand at all I didn't worry about I wanted to understand what the book was trying to say like Like almost like the table of contents became interesting to me because like what is I want the picture I want the roadmap because You know, I know I'm going to go down some street and if the street is unsafe So it's not about just having the map because then you can go on a street and other locals can tell you Don't go down that street. It's unsafe. So, you know, because you don't you need you need the You need the macro you need the micro and then you need the connection between the two. It's like It's like not to go off on it because we could talk about drum sets, right? But it's like it's kind of like how it's kind of like how light works with the photon The light is only what the observer Is observing and it changes with the observer. That's that's quantum physics. That's is bizarre So, you know, if you freeze you see just the the photon it's you don't see the light wave because the photon's not moving Hello, but if you see it in a different context You see the light wave because you see if you want a different thing But it's like it's like you're going from the micro to the macro the mic It's like this wave that I'm existing and it's how I always saw How I saw life was I need to get both ends of the spectrum and then fill it in And that's that's that's that's the crux of the simplicity of my first rhythm knowledge book It says he's a person on it in an environment What are the components of the environment? All right, what are the connections between me and the environment and I used to Um, assess, you know Environments that way and and how I would exist in those environments But we're going back to the drum kit going back to the drum is the same thing Apply that to the drum set and to drumming in the simplest without you know Because that that all that stuff goes down a path of like it gets confusing and people get turned off pretty quickly and go Ah, whatever. Yeah, I know. I know I find it fascinating But but really though, I mean it's how do you apply that to the to you know Your average joe playing a drum set and how he can get a little bit better today Because all of it all of it has to do that with the person sitting down and all of the Abilities that exist outside of them meaning for the equipment and stuff. So what you do is you apply it by say well What's fixed? What's something that's fixed? Okay, so it's fixed that I'm a human being I got to sit on a stool So I got to sit a certain way. There's something called the bass drum pedal Okay, I'm not going to kick the drum with my bare foot or anything So these things are these are givens that it's called in math you're gonna, you know a problem It's like well here are the givens x is 8 and y is 44 You know then you fill in you fill it in but there are givens So there's givens all the pedal it's all fixed and the drums are set up a certain way and The hardware for each company is limited to the hardware of each company So it does certain things and doesn't do other things. So that's how you apply it as you get a you get a perspective and a picture to go Okay What are my options? What are my options and then you start with something that's that you understand and you can reach and hit and go Okay, this makes sense to me for the music that I like and so all these other things come into play because you start thinking about shapes shapes like To memorize music The shape and form there's always form to music and there's a shape to it There's a shape to this a lot of triangles on my kit. I remember a lot of things and Get creative with creative with my expressions because of some shapes It's like well, I'll make a rhombus. It's some funny word or whatever the shape of trapezoid, you know We look like looks like that or a bunch of triangles or lines and things and then you can start to then Then you get the idea like whoa Why don't I make a line and put two snare drums up like cymbals just to see what happens If if someone has the resources to do so so the shape and form start to come into play um The cognitive science comes into play by way of what do I like? What comes natural? What don't I know? What don't I know? What what can I learn? Gee? Maybe I could set something up to help me learn that And I could transition to that first apex drum kit with extreme that we started out a lot of that um was designed Of course some musical purposes, but I couldn't play it when I first set it up So it was made it was like it was a tool it was a learning tool like if I could learn to play this If I can really flip my feet around and really truly play completely lefty Gosh, I'll be able to play 4,600,071 more things. Yeah No, I just say it because but there's like there's like mathematical There's equations and there's things that are out there in the world that have been there for a thousand years But taking that and going hey, maybe if I set it up like, you know that dead guy's theorem or whatever to like line it up That'll be that'll make me play a little bit better. Oh wait. It did great. Yeah Well, yeah, and yeah, and even the and even the angles of drums because let's just say Let me give you an example of something that freaks people out and it shouldn't it's calculus Calculus is like movie frames. It's moving pictures is what calculus is. That's all it is Is motion that you can slice up so you can predict it That's how rockets can land in a, you know A small area in the moon you predict you make predictions You can take space and like slice it up and then calculate stuff and it works But the thing is there's a equation There's equations that have things called limits So forget what it means technically forget it what I did as a drummer as I thought What's my what's my limit like I took the word literally so I didn't sit there and apply A differential equation to my tom-toms. I mean come on But what I did is I said, oh A limit. Oh, that sounds interesting. Like what's my physical limit? And so I was like, oh, well the angle of the drums I I can't like I'm uncomfortable So gee, why don't I study the human body and some biology or something just an anatomy book I'm not talking about getting deep. I'm just talking about open your eyes. Like what am I? I'm a person how do I work and I'll tell you one of the greatest blockages to learning Is is is that that is the presupposition that you already have the full truth? Sure You already know it and it's like, okay, I'm not talking about Devaluing absolute truths Okay, and there are Because if they weren't then you could say well, there were no absolute truths And then I could say is that an absolute truth and then you're gonna circle and that's and that's a yeah Well, that's the end of that Yep, that's that's that's the end of that argument. There are absolute truths So I'm not trying to demean them. What I'm trying to say is that you know, I've learned I am about to learn the hard way that I don't want. I'm studying or getting I still have a little bit in me that's like, okay Show me what I'm missing and I'm always open to say show it to me then I want to see what I'm missing explain it because if I don't have it Yeah, fair enough So I have that I have that That quality where I'm stepping back going but when we you know think we have the whole thing It gets in the way because it's like well drum shouldn't be set up like that That's somebody that's in an unfortunate place and their belief is in the way And I'm not I'm not demeaning belief because I wouldn't I wouldn't you know, I want to do that But because I don't believe that belief my belief in belief No, no, no, no, no, no, it's like then it things change for people we have we evolve we learn what's always something else And I sit there and go I thought I knew about this thing. I don't even know what this word means. Like oh gosh Yeah, well, you know, they say the older you get your body changes and things and I mean we all like just Just as you said you all we all kind of know things that we know we should be doing but we're not doing But if we worked harder at it, we'd be better But uh, it sounds like sometimes we need to listen to more of our invisible signs Which is a transition to talking about your album, which is incredible Yeah, yeah, yeah, man, you know, and I listened to the whole thing a few times and I like all the songs Earlier I was listening to see confined. I love that song. I think the whole thing is just awesome, but Um, tell us about it. Tell me that thing's powerful. Isn't it? I mean see confined It's just it's the simplest beat in the whole world, but that's such There's such openness in those chords. Did you record it all at your house or where did you Everyone recorded all of their parts in their own personal studios The tracks were sent to me. I then Did stuff to the tracks and then I passed it on to jay and jimmy tea Who I worked with a lot uh for about four or five years with dream theater like when I say work with a lot I don't mean like even in the dream theater realm, which we did. I'm talking about conversations, you know in Would stay in the same hotel and like let's let's let's meet down at the bar and have a beer I want to talk to you, you know, we would talk at before sound checks And uh, he helped me a lot with engineering and I got help from rich chicky Uh, who was just just just just just just he's just right. So, um Uh, these these these wonderful people helped me Because I didn't know enough, you know, and even when I thought okay, I'm gonna do this and I did everything Every instrument I wrote everything virtual instruments by the way as I had played guitar and bass. I've just no No, no put it down the virtual stuff's a lot easier to get my point across so So, you know once I did all that and I had to sit back and get and say I Felt like chevy chase and uh, Christmas vacation. I just kind of nodding, you know, it's like contemplating. Um, anyway, um, it's like, okay I'm turning. I'm going to give autonomy. Uh, I'm gonna let jimmy t do this thing To these tracks and you know after I did my thing and then we will go back and forth So point being that that album, um, which ended up I You know players had things to say I listened Yeah, you know, um, did you mean this f about is it a wrong note? Yeah, mike. It's a wrong one. Yeah No, I didn't I didn't mean that I don't have any No, but but it was interesting because I've been more protective of my drumming when it's with Well, anyone else gets control of it or something Uh, but with this album and writing I I not only had zero ego with it I was like really humbled by the process like, uh, This is the best I can do like what did you have any ideas? What do you what do you know? It's like, okay, I know what I want, but I don't know it all here So I I got opinions all body of songs before I chose them. I got I let people review it I I you know, I involved other people and I listened to them So that's really what makes it powerful is that this solo project of mine, which I did Everything on I feel like Dr. Evil with the air quotes, right? It's it's it what what made it best was saying. Oh, no, no, no, no, no No, no, no, I have my direction and it's a it's a it's a piece of me But I'm going to let people that do things better than I do Have their say and go and do those things. So Um, I recorded it in this studio here And it was a different shell. It was the nub kit The reference pure that I recorded but recorded on but it was set up the same as this Which I used on distance over time with dream theater and that tour so the six and the eight inch toms are not there and Only only two bass drums are there the the 22s And I find that if anyone's into gear and you are you know talking about gear here that Recording with two bass drums Um is easier in the in the edit mix stage in case of Errors or whatever Because I look at I'm the guy that records Things and recorded everything in one pass for most of my career one thing Oh, I did because I would learn it because then I The benefit was that you can weed out the bs and you can find better things to play and when you're playing it for real And it's one pass you realize that it's the experience is different You're like you change the things that you might not have done or might or might not know about because you have to play it In one shot So if that that's the case and one of my limbs waxed a drum Uh Before a downbeat in an ugly way. Let somebody fix it like fix it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, whatever, you know like so what I'm not gonna play the whole thing. The feel is great, but um I know I love that but anyway with that being another subject That's this and the solo album was recorded on everything here except just the drum shells were swapped up with the same symbols The very sounds incredible. I mean, it's it's a it's a drummers album, but it's not it's a I mean, it's like a band You know what I mean? It's it's a it's a musician It's it's just I would put it on and you know play it for my wife or for someone who's not a drummer and just They wouldn't they wouldn't know it was just a drummer who's doing his awesome project It would just comes off as a really great musical, you know A band a great album. Thank you. Yeah, because I I wrote it for the average listener You know, you can hear the drums sound Incredible in that album Not only did I hit them hard, but I've done that on every album But the thing is that I'm the engineer and I was involved With with with the mixes although I wasn't at the mixing board I was doing it remotely But I had worked with jimmy tea enough He knew how I wanted it to sound because he knew Because I communicated what I was hearing so it wasn't like I want this and I want that and I don't like that sound and disagree with this Wasn't about that opinion kind of a thing. It was more like listen I'm the drummer I I create parts because of how they sound back there And uh, whatever records it doesn't sound like me. It doesn't feel like me. It doesn't have the nuances like me It doesn't it's not me because it's you know a bunch of other people in the in in the in in the line And it that's but that's how things work. That's why it never You know, uh, nothing I you know, it's just like I accepted no and yeah I didn't have to from my record and I was like I darned well. I'm not going to that's part of the reason I made it was to go. This is how I sound. It's a great mix of being a monster drummer But also being listenable because even even as a mega drummer, I'm sure you don't want to you know Be driving in your car every day Listen, we we don't all want to listen to drum solos all the time. We want to listen to other stuff I think you've you've been uh, you know, I think you've been a huge inspiration to many many many people And uh, you're a lot of people's favorite drummer and I think Um, it's just incredible. So so before we wrap up I got to say thank you to uh, Paul from uh, drumming news network Who I've talked to paul for the last year or so about different things such a hardworking guy who really is just doing everything to kind of be in the drum Community in a really good way and spread the knowledge and uh, I just like that Like there's not always a straight path of being a you know, rock and roll drummer on tv It's like sometimes like me. There's little side outlets you can go of just like talking about things and Providing the knowledge. So thank you to paul for connecting us. I think that's super cool. And I appreciate that Yeah, so do I and that's why he's uh spearheading these master classes for me because he's connected to that Environment and he's vested in it and he's emotionally into it and he's knowledgeable He's got he's got everything and he works hard. So, you know, that's that's that's so I am grateful as well Mike as we wrap up here at the end one final question to kind of tie things back to the original conversation about gear and designing your monster drum kits What's really at the crux of Uh, your drum set like it's not even designing it. It's just like it's you're in the middle of these monster setups Small setups practice pad setups. What's really the most important thing that brings it all together and it kind of makes it Mike Mangini's Drum set if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. Um, it's that I have found a way To be aware of that Thing that is calling me but it's magnet. It's pulling me when I what I what I mean by that is you know, um these stats and images that that come in when I'm in a In a focused place about about my instrument and in my music. So the thing is the drum kits The drum kits have developed to satisfy The music I'm hearing in my head Sometimes it came from, you know, my being very young and just Well, if I don't have this stuff then I can't play like that guy You know, sometimes as simple as that and then with my my development. It's a matter of but I'm what about this and what about that? And then using The drum kits as a developmental tool Meaning, oh, I can't do this. I can't hit this. I can't even reach that. I don't even know what to do about this But I set it up anyway And so the drum kit becomes a learning and a development tool on my whole being It's incredible to look through the the the years of your sets and I know that there's a lot of You know thought behind it. There's teams of people building it. There's painters. There's There's a lot of you know, the the ergonomics but from a guy sitting in the audience looking up They're awesome. They're incredible. So good job for creating some, you know Iconic drum sets that people can just sit there and drool over and posters on the wall kind of stuff You know, we we got to have that in our industry. Yeah, and uh, I guess it's part of the joy to To say how much fun I've had posting these Videos from my pads just a drug was to one snare pad and a kick pad It's and I made music making music out of it. There's plenty to do and it's like, yeah Of course, someone doesn't need all that but I want that because it's musical for me And I don't need anybody telling me that it's not needed and oh, it can be done with tree drum So and so does it with three drums? Well, let's so and so So do it because it's not the same orchestrally. It doesn't sound the same. It doesn't have the same impact for certain kinds of music and On the opposite side of the fence on the opposite side of the fence Yeah, a larger kit Has its issues at times. So you have to balance it like what what's just what's the music? What is the music demanding? It's not Any one's better necessarily than the other but one does might and it might work Better in some situations depending on the reason You know, uh the premise like what's the point here? It's like, oh, that's why okay Well, that's do you have that set set up and and then at the end of the day too Let's somebody do with why is this and one person care how someone else Likes a drum set set up and then proposes to tell them that it's not right. It's just human nature It's interesting. You there's you know, that's the internet comments and it's that's a very interesting point of it's just honestly I think it gives people something it's the monday morning quarterback It just gives people something to talk about But once you hit a certain level The top of the mountain is windy as they say or it's windy or at the top of the mountain. Um, but So Yeah, no, Mike. This is incredible. Yeah, I think we know about invisible signs. Um, the you can search man genie and you'll find it There's an awesome Spotify playlist that's the mic man genie discography that has a ton of your stuff on there Which is super cool to listen through. Um, and I recommend that as well mic man genie.com you're on youtube as well a lot of great stuff on youtube Um social media my link tree goes to all this but the but the artist's name from my album is man genie It's not mic man genie. It's man genie. You got your master classes. You're looking forward to that I feel like you're always on the move. I mean you're always doing something Oh, yeah, you know what? I have a another vimeo subscription um thing coming out and these things are Incredibly affordable. I mean it's like a practically given the stuff away for like the cost of a starbucks coffee a month, you know one um, so I have one coming up that a playthroughs of invisible science a drum playthroughs and I have something really special. Um, that's still not finished. That's why I haven't put it out yet But I have all different speeds So you can see it in slow motion Um, and then I'm I'm I have one version that I'm building now where I'm speaking I'm doing a voice over so you know what I'm thinking And when I'm thinking it which I it's it this is the thing. It's like That's what I do. Why haven't I ever thought to? Use it in in in a video in this context not just voice over Not voice over No, what's happening in the inner game? Yeah, but it's like it's it's it's it's it's deep stuff and uh So that's that's going to be released very soon And that's essentially in my master classes and in in my vimeo videos. I go deep into it I don't reveal all that with social media posts social media posts for me have always just been about Tying into people keeping in touch promoting things You know keep keeping it keeping it going, but it's it's not been about my giving away the farm. Uh, no way That's that's that's on the subscription services and and the classes and stuff people are paying good money for just good Um, yeah, and rightly so well rightly so it's saving them 10 years of time five years of time. Why not? I'll put a link to all the just everything in the description for mike's mike stuff So you can check it out in the man genie album invisible signs the master classes everything there So Mike it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you tonight, man And thank you very much for your time and coming on and I hope that everyone come if mike's coming to a town near you Go out and check it out and check out the album. So mr. Mike man genie. Thank you for being here my pleasure