 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. We are discussing something very important today. The JNU administration's latest move to impose the conduct of central services rules on its teachers. And today joining us are Dr. Ashrojit Majumdar. Thank you, sir, for taking out the time to speak to us. And of course this move is the latest attempt that has come out by the JNU administration and the teacher's association is opposing it. So my first question to you is why is this opposition and what kind of consequences does this imposition have and what does it entail? Okay, the central civil services conduct rules are rules that are applicable to government servants. And it's because of the nature of the function that they have to perform as government servants that certain restrictions are imposed on them, restrictions which are not applicable to common citizens of the country. So for example, they are not allowed to say or write anything which is criticizing government policies. There are also restrictions on certain rights of protest. So for example, they are not allowed to go on strike. Now these conduct rules have never been applicable to university teachers. Legally, university teachers are not government servants because universities are created by acts of parliament. They are autonomous bodies. So teachers are not government servants. Salaries are not paid directly out of consolidated fund of India. So if it is anything is to be applicable to teachers, it has to be defined by the nature of their function. And the nature of the function of teachers is such that not only is it that you do not need the conduct rules that are applicable to government servants, those conduct rules themselves are actually impediments to teachers performing their function. So in terms of both the function of teachers as well as the constitutional rights that are guaranteed to teachers in their capacity as citizens of the country, the CCS conduct rules would be, imposition of them would be incorrect and illegal. So for example, let us say I am an economist. Tomorrow a journalist comes in like you, comes and asks me, okay, what is your opinion on the goods and service tax that the government has introduced? My responsibility as a teacher and as an academic, as someone who research is in that area, who is obliged to enrich the public discussion on issues like this would be that I will make an assessment based on my expertise of that particular policy measure. And the way I see it is the way I would articulate it to the journalist who is asking me that question. If you say CCS conduct rules are applicable to teachers, then I cannot. My only job is to defend whatever is the government policy. Do you think that this is in a way then scuttling your critical expression? Absolutely, absolutely. And even our function as teachers and research work, what are we going to do? If we are not allowed to articulate a position that is flowing from what we study and analyze, if we are not able to critically evaluate and discuss things that are happening in society that governments do in classrooms with our students, then we cannot perform our function as teachers. So that is a very important point that you made that until now this had not happened, right? So you were not under the purview of CCS. Now all of a sudden, why do you think that this imposition is coming into place? Well, I do not think it is in JNews case something that is all of a sudden because we have had instances in the past where they have been attempting to invoke CCS rules as if they are applicable to university teachers. So there have been cases where they have tried to inquire or charge teachers with violating those rules. Most recently, 48 teachers have been issued show cause notices for participating in a protest, in a peaceful protest. And again CCS conduct rules have been invoked there that you are in, they have been formally charged with violating those rules. Now the attempt is because so far they have been attempting to do this, but it is nowhere written down in the laws, act, statutes, ordinances of the university that CCS conduct rules are applicable. They are now trying to introduce it into those ordinances. And the immediate background is that the teacher service conditions are governed by UGC regulations. So the UGC has recently notified the new set of regulations which come with the Seventh Pay Commission implementation. So that requires some changes in the ordinances of the university. Now what the university has done that the actual process of implementation of UGC regulations which is a serious exercise figuring out what is the ordinance that requires amendment, how do you adapt a regulation which is applicable to the entire country to your specific conditions. So that is a serious exercise that any institution has to do in the process of incorporating those regulations into their own laws. That exercise has not been done very well. So it is almost like a cut and paste job you pick up a regulation introduce into the ordinance. But in the process they have in that ordinance sought to introduce a clause which says that wherever other rules are silent CCS rules on conduct will apply. So which is an omnibus kind of clause which allows you to pick out any time any CCS rule and say university rules are not saying silent on this. So this is applicable to you and you are in violation of this particular act. Through these technical details that you just mentioned you see that there is obviously a pattern that is emerging where you feel that would you say that this is sort of in a way trying to muzzle the voices in the university. There can be no question about that that the university administration has for a long time now in JNU been seeking to do that through one or the other means. So any opportunity they get where they can penalize teachers and it could be anything. It could be some leave matter. It could be a promotion case. It could be anything. The message being sent out clearly repeatedly unambiguously is that fall in line otherwise you have to pay a price. So given that record it is quite clear what is the objective behind the attempt to impose CCS rules despite the fact that the previous occasions when it was invoked have led to discussion in the university's authoritative bodies about the applicability of CCS rules to university teachers and it has been known to the university administration that CCS rules cannot apply to teachers. It would be in violation of the university's own acts and statutes and it could be also in violation of the constitution. If I have a constitutionally guaranteed right my university does not have the power to take away that right from me. And so the process in which how this was done of course is coming under a lot of question and the teachers association has gone public with the details of how the imposition actually took place if you could shed light on that. Well essentially what they did was that they framed these they constituted some committee to frame these new ordinances in the light of the new CCS regulations. These were sent by email to the university's teachers two or three days before the academic council meeting in which these were to be discussed. Now there is also a regulation that normally the agenda of a meeting is to be circulated well in advance. So the agenda was not circulated and these teachers were sent these set of ordinances a few days before and said give your comments in by two days and then it would be placed before the academic council. So this is the process that was followed in the academic council no matter what issues people raised it was basically steam rolled through that in principle all of these ordinances are passed or approved. Now this has been a pattern through several meetings where essentially the academic council is asked to essentially accept whatever the vice chancellor of the chairperson of the academic council decides is the decision. No matter what the opinion the under the normal process we have historically always had in JNU is one in which suppose you had certain major changes to be made that process would begin with okay even if there is a committee the committee itself would have a process of consultation with the different units of the university particularly the centers and the schools then they would formulate after that feedback a set of things which would also be often circulated and comments taken from different centers and then with all those opinions the academic council would consider and take the final decision. Now here that process didn't happen opinions were sought from people for only with only two days notice and it is a lengthy document that requires to be studied even then lots of people did submit their comments. The academic council did not consider those comments and observations at all they were not discussed in the academic council not placed before them. So the process is one in which essentially administration decides something and the formal process of approval by different bodies is there just that a formality it's not something that is teachers voices are being sidelined and the processes are being hastily implemented as you very very correctly pointed out on the fifth of course the students union was also protesting their exclusion from the academic council meeting. So this clamp down and also sort of teachers voices as well as students voices what does this indicate about the larger context of the university and the kind of expression that the university has always had in the public space. Well the larger process which we've seen what we are seeing in JNU is of course one expression of a phenomena that is bigger than JNU what's happening in several places several universities where the process of giving universities the space and the conditions where they nurture critical thinking is being essentially sort to be eliminated and universities are being sort to be put into a study where the process of education itself is reduced to simply a thing of passing on information rather than something which develops a critical ability of the students. So that's the process that is actually unfolding and the current administration in JNU is an active instrument of that particular process. So when you want to change the processes if you want to eliminate these things about which nurture critical thinking questioning this end then you of course in a space which historically has been of a different kind then you are also going to face some resistance. So many of these things are essentially instruments of trying to put down or clamp down on that resistance but I must say that so far it's been the case that it has not been easy for the administration to achieve. So if you see the fact that repeatedly these measures are being invoked so you're trying to make new laws which will stifle people's right to express free of rank opinion or an opposing opinion if you are making laws which are restricting people's rights to protest if you are repeatedly taking actions against teachers what does that mean? It means that one set of one round of these things has not produced the result that you know you have to keep repeating it. So you are trying to clamp down on protest repeatedly because you are not succeeding in clamping down on attack. And is that the message that you'd like to give to the administration that probably the teachers even with this measure and the measures if implemented in the future what is the kind of way forward to sort of fight this fact? Absolutely there is no other message that one can give this if this process is to continue then it means a complete destruction of a university and an institution. It means that the purpose for which we are here in the university is going to be completely defeated. How can that be acceptable to us? How can that be acceptable to a self-respecting teachers that the reason or purpose for which they are here is going to be completely destroyed? And how can it be acceptable to us given our sense of accountability to society at large? University is not the vice chancellor or the administration's private property. It is a public institution. It belongs to the people of the country. It has to perform a function to where it contributes to the progress of society at large. If it if that purpose is being undermined then it is our responsibility as teachers because our position, our training, our expertise allows us to recognize what is happening. It is our responsibility on behalf of the public of this country to stand up and resist. It's a responsibility. It's not just a choice. It's a responsibility that is imposed on us by the position we are in. So as teachers, when we are protesting against this we are discharging our duty as teachers. We are not just being political in that sense. We are discharging the responsibility that is vested in us and if we are not going to do it today then tomorrow of course people at large can ask us this question and tell us that you are complicit in the process of destruction of an asset that belongs to society. And sir, another thing about the larger discourse a lot is being said about the administration being a reflection of the kind of line of thinking that the government is also adapting. To what extent do you think that is happening? Well government economic government policies towards higher education are certainly moving in the similar direction and the university administration is also implementing many of the things that the government wishes to implement. So and it's coming through different routes. Sometimes it comes in the form of UGC regulations. Sometimes it comes in the form of government dictates. We have a situation in the university today where the university has entered into a tripartite agreement. The university which is an autonomous body has entered into a tripartite memorandum of understanding with another autonomous body the UGC and the Ministry of Human Resource Development whereby it has committed itself to certain performance targets which would be monitored. In the sense therefore the university has actually acted in a way where it has surrendered the autonomy of the university to a government. But what is the purpose for which that is being done is illustrated by the fact that the performance targets include a commitment to increase fees. So university is being subjected to greater government control for a process of further privatizing the university. So government control already is significant on account of the fact that the money eventually comes from the government. Public funding means it has to come through the government. So there is already various levers through which the government controls things that is being enhanced. But the idea government control that is rooted in the fact that you are funding an university is being used to promote a process where the government is going to shed its own responsibility of funding and transfer it to private sources. So how is the teacher's association now going to take this forward in terms of resisting it and what is the plan of action? Well that is to be discussed in the teacher's body we have a general body and other bodies of the thing from time to time decisions will be taken. But this decision has already been taken that we are opposed to the imposition of CCS rules and teachers. So this has been an explicitly clearly articulated position that this is illegal, this is a violative of our constitutional rights, this is against the statutes and ordinances and therefore also the constitution of the country and therefore it is not acceptable to us and we will fight it through the play. So with that note we would end this interview and our news click will be following the further developments that would take place. Thank you so much sir for joining us today and shedding light on all these issues. Thank you.