 I've been a developer for more than seven years at the OpenState Foundation, and I'll be talking about democracy, eventually digitally transparent, question mark. So just a short introduction, this is the OpenState Foundation team, there's a new person right there, as you can see, we're based in Amsterdam, and we're about a team of eight people, two, three developers, and some people that work on lobbying, project management, research, and things like that. OpenState Foundation exists since 2012, we're a merger of two other organizations, Hetnieuwe Stemme, the new voting, which try to bridge the gap between politics and public using digital tools, and Hector Government, Hector Override, which was an organization that organized many hackathons and events to open up the government. So what do we focus on? There's many things in government, and we try to cover it as much as possible. We've broken it up into some themes, so elections are really important to be as transparent as possible, you need to know how and where you can vote, you need to know that the results are correct, and you know at this moment in the Netherlands we get the early results via a media company, which is weird, because the government should just provide the results. So there's a lot of transparency needed there, then you have the politicians that are elected, that will make a lot of decisions. How do they come to these decisions, what decisions are made, they should be all as public as possible, and with these decisions come a lot of financing and money that's being spent. Where is it being spent on, is it used correctly, and in the end you have the results. So what society do we end up with, can we measure this, can we maybe reuse data that government collects to perform its duties. Basically transparency has many advantages, so with government you can hold government accountable, which is really important, you can have commercial reuse of the data, there's often more value in a data set than you can imagine at the start, and it makes things much more efficient, for example data sets that we often publish, the biggest re-users are government organizations themselves, because suddenly they can easily access the data via an API or a nice search interface, so it will be just much easier if they publish this data themselves in an open and transparent way. So basically we do this in two ways, we try to accelerate the opening up of all the data, and then we promote the reuse of these data sets via hackathons and meetups and events. Enough about open states, let's just get into the talk, don't read everything here, just pick some sentences, this is an old list that's been going around, it's called the 50 shades of no, because it's really easy to not be transparent and to not open up, and many of these reasons make sense, I mean they can be like gut feelings to not open up, because it's scary and you're vulnerable, but many of them, I mean too expensive is at the top of the list, yeah, it's going to probably cost some money, so you have to fix that. The thing is if there's like one reason to say no to open up, you can solve it, but most of the times there's a collection of no's coming together, and you see that a government stagnates and doesn't open up and publish the data that they should publish, so I'll be going through some projects that we've done in the past couple of years and show you how we've, yeah, gotten a lot of no's and how we've overcome them, so let's start with open spending, this is a website, openspending.nl, where we publish all the budgets and spending of local governments in the Netherlands, so municipalities, water councils, which is fun to know that it's like the oldest democratic institute in the Netherlands is managing water, provinces and collaborations between municipalities. Back in 2012, 2013, we heard that all these local governments published their spending and budgets in the standardized format and send it to the national government so they could check if everything is okay. So we started asking the statistics office in the Netherlands, CBS, Central Bureau for Statistics, they collected all these budgets and spending of all local governments, could you just publish this, could you just put it on a website in an API or whatever, they were already publishing a lot of data and they said, no, it's not our job. And they said, it's not ours, we don't have authorization from the data owner, which is true, the municipalities and local governments are still the owner of these files. So they wouldn't publish it and what we started doing was just asking as an NGO, as people part of society, can we have this file? But there's hundreds of these local governments, so you have like 300, back in the days, 370 municipalities and there's 12 provinces and hundreds of collaborations and water councils, so we emailed them and called them for years and started to gather all these files and put them on openspending.nl. So after a few years we had a good collection, like a third of all these local municipalities of local governments were covered on our website and we had them on a map so you could see these are transparent and these are not. And this started a whole discussion within this space of local governments because some would say, why isn't my local municipality on this website? And how do we get there? And then somebody else would say, no, we don't give away this file, but why don't we give away this file? Because all the other municipalities are already on there. So this website created a lot of pressure on the local governments to finally say, okay, maybe this makes sense, it's just budgets and spending which should be open anyway. Let's just ask the statistics office to publish it all and the statistics office finally said, okay, now it is our job. So we now, since quite a few years, have all the local governments covered for like there's 12 years of data and well, it's a big data set. And we're really happy with this. I think it's still in the world quite special to have a standardized budget and spending of local governments on just available. Then again, it could be better. It's only high level data. It's only like how much has been spent on sports or culture and maybe a bit more specific than that. But in the end, spending goes way down until the receipt level, the bonnets. Why not publish this? I mean, just to give a short disclaimer, open state foundation is like transparency, but we also like privacy. So we don't want, you know, personal information to be published. We don't want state secrets to be published. But many information is just easy to publish and there's no reason not to do it. So we're currently working with government to create a new standard to publish even, you know, up to way more levels deep of budget and spending data. Let's move to our next project that we've done. It's called, Varysme Stem Lokal or Where Is My Polling Station. This is again a project where you think doesn't government already do this. They obviously organize the elections, so they know where the polling stations already probably publish it online, right? And they do, but in the Netherlands, municipalities organize all elections. So even the national elections or European elections. And there's, at this moment, like 345 municipalities. And they can be big municipalities, small municipalities, and they have many ways in which they publish their voting stations. The best ones have like an interactive map like we do, but many just publish a PDF with addresses, which isn't really helpful if you quickly want to see what voting station you want to use. And it's not reusable the data. So we again asked, you know, the ministry and the municipalities, can't you just publish this in a nice, standardized way as a big data set? Because we don't want 345 small data sets that differ. We want all the information. And we got the question, but who's going to use this? Which is a fair question again. So the first year we did this was 2017, and we manually collected all the information of all the municipalities, which was a lot of work. And it was used by nearly a million people. So apparently people do want this information, and it's useful, and you can use it for analyses after the elections. So they were convinced this should be maybe a project that is financed, and we got some financing to do this. But still, at this moment, when we first asked municipalities, okay, so this website is necessary, please publish your voting stations on this website. And we created the standards to do this in a standardized way, so other people could reuse it and exactly know what data to expect. 50% of the municipalities gave us their information. And we still had to collect the rest of the 50%, which was again a lot of work. And the 50% that didn't publish it would often say we've already published the data. It's already in a PDF, or we have our own screenshot of a map, or sometimes a nice interactive map. But many would, again, it's a good reason to say why should we duplicate this data? And this is, again, a technical problem, because, well, as many of you know, you don't want to duplicate data around. This gives a lot of issues. But we're not there yet. And we're not at the point where each municipality has all its data available in a nice standardized API that can be used across all municipalities in an easy cron job or anything. So we still need them to centrally publish it to our website. And by now, 80% of the municipalities do it. So that's already a big improvement from the 50% that we started at. Another nice thing that you can do with this data is, now that you know the exact locations of all the nearly 10,000 polling stations in the Netherlands, when the election results are published, the location, again, of the polling stations isn't shown, but the name is shown in the ID of the polling station. So we can match these and create amazing images which we did together with the Volkskamp for the last several years. So people can know how do people vote in this area. And this obviously wasn't possible if we didn't get all this data standardized and available for the whole of the Netherlands. Another big topic that we've been working on for 10 years is the Handelsregister, the company register, the camera from Kopehandel, Chairman of Commerce in the Netherlands, runs it, but you have to pay. So that's an obstacle that we wouldn't want there. I mean, there's actually a lot of external companies that invoke by all this data and then sell it as a subscription model for cheap. But then again, you need a subscription or you just need to pay per view on each company that you want the information on. So this is a huge obstacle on a public register, but it doesn't really feel public if you have these obstacles. So we ask, can we publish this? And what they say is it's too expensive, because once this is free and as open data, the Chamber of Commerce, the KVK, probably loses about 40 or 50 million in revenue each year, which is a problem for them because that's a big chunk of their budget. So we would ask the Ministry of Economics, which is the ministry that the KVK belongs to, but the ministry so far also didn't want this changed. And in a sense, it's easy. They should just pay 40 or 50 million to the Chamber of Commerce and then it can be opened. Yes, it's a lot of money, but it's also a lot of value that currently isn't realized. So how many people don't look up information about the company and make a wrong decision? What kind of analysis could be done with this information that isn't done at this moment? What kind of fraud or corruption could be protected, which is really hard to do because the data isn't open. So yeah, 40, 50 million is a lot of money, but I guess there's probably more money lost at this moment because it isn't open. And it can be open. Our neighbors in the United Kingdom have the company's house and they just publish it. They just publish it. Oh, I mean, this is Google. You see the recent filings, few PDFs and you can view it. It feels so weird if you just have to pay euros and do a transaction online in the Netherlands and here you can just click it and search it. So it is possible. It's just a choice and a kind of political will that is necessary in the Netherlands for it to open up. A short slide that is related. There's a new register about companies. That's the ultimate beneficial ownership register. It's mandated by the EU and has come into action in the past year. But each country had their own choice in how they implemented it. And in the Netherlands, again, the Chamber of Commerce manages this register and again they ask money for it. So I know a lot of people are annoyed with having to fill in that their ownership with their company or their organization they're part of. But I guess most of the value of this data is again locked behind a paywall. Moving on, the 2D Karma Open Data Portal or the House of Representatives Open Data Portal in the Netherlands. In 2012, the people at the House of Representatives voted to open up all the information that they created during their job. So all the amendments, motions, votings, the questions that are asked. They said, yeah, we should just digitally publish this also. People can see this and analyze it. But it wasn't opened up in 2012. It was opened up in 2016. So it took them four years to get the IT working and publish this via an API. And we were happy. We were like, okay, it took four years, but now we can access it. But then you apparently need to register and you had your IP whitelisted before you could access it, which was kind of weird because why would you again create obstacles for us to access this information? Why they did this is because the API was directly linked to their internal backend, their internal database. So they thought, well, we must make sure that not too many people access this. Guess what? Many people access it and it would cause their internal systems to crash or slow down. So they closed it up in 2016. And it took six years. I'm sorry. I think you can see it here, but it took six years again. Just last month, they finally managed to cache it in a cloud and open up their API without obstacles. So yeah, it took 10 years. We're happy with the end results, but it took 10 years, which is insane and shows that there's not a lot of political will or priority for this information to be opened up. Because it isn't that hard. It's not like a 10-year IT project hard. Another project of ours lobbying. So in 2018, the ministers in the Netherlands decided to publish their calendars, their meetings and agendas, which is a good idea. You could see up front where they would be going and in the end, you could analyze, oh, they talked to these people and well, good idea. And they published it on rijksofright.nl, like the main government website. Last year, a colleague of mine analyzed this information. These are all the meetings per month in the last couple of years. And we were looking at them and we were like, some ministries obviously should have more appointments than this because it would amount up to like a few meetings per week or something like that. And that wouldn't be a really productive minister if that was true. So obviously not all the meetings were put online. In the last year, you see that there is again a spike. So apparently our research affected them to know more proactively publish their meetings on the website. But still, I'm confused with a site like this. The ministers most likely use a calendar tool, maybe something from Microsoft, maybe something from another vendor. These tools all use the eye calendar protocol and standard at the back end. And this can be easily shared online. And if you have a private meeting that needs to be hidden, you can make a meeting hidden. So why do they ask their assistants to maybe once a week put their information on a website when they can just easily share the calendar that they already have? So this is also a theme that I'll end this talk with that we should just keep it simple and use open protocols which already exist because many of these tasks aren't that difficult and are already solved. Related to this is the transparency register in the European Union. So where in the Netherlands, the ministers publish their own calendars in the European Union as a lobbyist, as someone that wants to talk to a commissioner, you first need to register on the website, which is interesting. There's like 12,000 people or companies registered. And you have nice information because all these companies or organizations have an ID so you can see how many times they talked to a minister. So in the end, I think it should be a combination of both of these systems. So just publish the calendars from your calendar tool and also have some kind of ID of all the people that talk with the ministers and commissioners. A best example is the digital minister of Taiwan, Audrey Tang, which is a prolific programmer by the way. And it's amazing that she's been a minister for many years already and she's really pushing the transparency cause there. If you have an interview or a meeting with Audrey Tang, it will be taped. It will be put on YouTube. So you're just having a seat at the table. You can hear everything that's being said. You can see everything that's being said. Yeah. So shout out to Audrey Tang and showing how it should be done and what's possible. Yeah. Let's move on to freedom of information requests in the Netherlands. It's called Vet Open Barrel from the Steer, which is the law that was just replaced with the Vet Open Override two months ago. We did a research at the beginning of this year together with partners of ours and take a look at the national level, how long it took for them to publish the documents requested by freedom of information request. 161 days. So that's like, you're waiting half a year, maybe even longer because this is an average for documents that you requested that you have your legal right to. These lines show the maximum amount of days that legally they have. It's 56 with the old law and 42 days with the new law. So yeah, they're going to have to work on moving their response time down. And I can understand why this is because I talk to a lot of civil servants and they say, oh, it's so annoying if people ask these information. I have to look in email boxes of colleagues that have left five years ago and I can't even open the box and then I have to go through all these network drives and duplicate documents and all these things. So obviously, the information systems used by the government aren't equipped to quickly deal with freedom of information requests. And that's the big problem. And there's a good example of a country that can do it a lot faster. As you can see, Norway, three days. How is this possible? It just blows my mind. So let's look at Norway. We interviewed them. They have a great website that's called Ainsen. I'm not sure if I pronounced it correct, which means something electronic insight, transparency. And as you can see over here, 64 million documents and emails are directly searchable and requestable via this website, which is great. I mean, the Netherlands is working on a website like this as well. It has like 200,000 documents and they're having a big, big troubles with scaling this up. I also love that this is just like a shopping card. So you can order things which aren't directly accessible in the system and it will go to your shopping cart and you can just order as much as you want because it's free. Some documents are directly available. You can just open them up. Here you see the shopping cart. And I've done this. They don't restrict where you come from. So I've just requested many documents. And with a few days, they sent you via email all the documents and emails that civil servants sent. It was really amazed by how they do this. So how does Norway do this? Well, first of all, they use a metadata standard that's used across the government. Obviously, it's still work in progress. It can be scaled up even further, but they're a long way. And it's a simple metadata standard. It's just, you know, what's the date of this document? Is there a subject or a title, things like this? Who's the owner? But because it's standardized, they can publish it on their e-insync website and make it searchable and requestable. And then there's a culture of openness and trust. The government in Norway trusts society to, you know, not be too picky on their vulnerability by showing all their information. And this is true. I mean, there's going to be mistakes that's going to be shown in this data. But by opening up all your information, you'll end up gaining trust. And even if you make mistakes, people will kind of accept it because they know, okay, obviously, nobody is perfect. Government can be perfect either. So let's just maybe work with them. And there's probably scandals and things like this. And it could be better in Norway also, but it's a positive circle where the government trusts society and society trusts government. And this is a big issue in these days because trusting government is, I think, going down in many countries. So opening up in Norway has reversed this trend or made sure that this trend doesn't happen there as much. Then again, transparency also has priority. So besides a culture, it's also political will. If you get a freedom of information request in Norway, you have to drop all your other work and just handle the request ASAP. Even if it takes too long, or if you don't open up everything, apparently, they don't even black out much of the documents, which is kind of seen as something you don't do in Norway. Whereas in the Netherlands, there's many examples of documents that are completely black because everything is blacked out. But if a citizen isn't happy with the time it took for this information to be published or the information that they got, they can file a complaint and this complaint goes directly to the king. And every week, the king looks at these complaints and addresses the ministers and saying, why wasn't this information provided? So it's a way of political will and courage in Norway, which we in the Netherlands, at least, can learn a lot from. So the final slides will be more of thinking about where should we go? What kind of inspiration do we need? What is possible? What would make sense for governments to work in the open? Because at the Open State Foundation, we've focused a lot on data sets, but as you've seen with these freedom of information requests, it's mainly also documents and emails and text messages, which hold a lot of interesting information about the functioning of government. But this is a really messy kind of data. It's not a clean data set which you can easily publish. It means that you have to look at the structural way that government works and make sure that that's easily opened up. So inspiration number one, GitLab. GitLab is quite, well, actually I'd say radically transparent as a company. It's just a public company. They create an open source, well, Git cloud platform, obviously, and software platform. But they have a handbook, which is largely open. You can just read about all their internal ways they work and decisions they make. They use public trackers. Well, let me just read the quote. Be open about as many things as possible. By making information public, we can reduce the threshold to contribution and make collaboration easier. Use public issue trackers, public projects and public repositories when possible. So because they codified this information in their handbook and actively pursue it, they have a really open culture in quite a large company by now. Another quote which I think is even more interesting, I'll read it. Most companies become non-transparent over time because they don't accept any mistakes. Instead, we should always err on the side of transparency when there is a choice to be made between caution or inaction and transparency. And this ties in great with the 50 shades of no list that I started with because if you don't actively try to be transparent and open, you'll feel the pain and the vulnerability of being open and you'll close up again and don't publish anything anymore. And the default will be non-transparency. So GitLab also like Audrey Tang publishes a lot of stuff on YouTube. They actively ask their people to have their meetings live streams on YouTube. And it's a company that works mostly remote. So their meetings are already online and they just live stream them on YouTube and you can look them back. And it's insane. There's like thousands and thousands of videos and many that are uploaded each day. Yeah, it's great that they are so transparent and show that even a public company can be this transparent. So a government which kind of has the duty to be transparent should be easily be able to do something like this. Another inspiration is, of course, successful open source projects that work in the open. For example, Linux, obviously. I mean, they do all their communication via mailing lists. It's been doing this for 30 years. It's really successful. Sure, it's probably not perfect, but if an organization like Linux can communicate this successfully using just mailing lists, why can government do this? And finally, again, back to my favorite minister in the world, Audrey Tang in Taiwan. Another example of her transparency is that if you ask written questions via email or ask for a written interview, she'll say, just post it on the forum because I'll answer on the forum and maybe other people can answer it as well. It's just so simple. Why shouldn't information that is hidden in emails just be open in a forum if you communicate with government? And, well, Audrey Tang again is leading the way in this. So, to finish up, keep it simple. Again, question mark. Just use open standards. Use open protocols. Use open source. And just some crazy ideas. I mean, files and documents at government. Why don't they just use a public NextCloud instance? Hide the documents that you don't want to publish or maybe create an add-on that you can redact some stuff, but just start with NextCloud. And I think you'll move along really quickly with opening up. Email again. Just use mailing lists. Public mailing lists. Chat. Chat isn't used as much in government, I think, but if they use chat, they use text messages or WhatsApp. Not good. Maybe just use a public matrix instance. So, in the end, open government requires courage from top down, from ministers. It sounds really crazy that it's something like courage that is necessary, but if the ministers don't show that there's a political will to open up, it won't happen. And Norway is doing this already quite well. Then again, you also need courage from bottom up. You need civil servants, and I know many of them that are already working on this, that actively try to push the agenda of opening up and publishing information that isn't published at this moment and asking questions why it isn't possible. And most important, I think, even is pressure from society. I'd say that transparency organizations aren't as well-known or as visible or maybe as sexy as privacy organization for privacy and digital rights. But a thing that we always say at the open state foundation is government shouldn't know much about citizens, so that's what privacy organizations do. What we do is making sure that citizens know much about the government, and you need both to be in a healthy, healthy, just society. So, support your local digital rights, digital transparency and open data NGO. UK has the great My Society. Germany and Belgium have the Open Knowledge Foundation, and they're also in Finland and many other chapters. France has Regas Citoyenne, Access Info in Spain, and also they work at a lot of stuff in Europe, Openpolis in Italy. Well, in every country or region, there is an organization working on this. But don't take it for granted, Sunlight Foundation used to be the biggest 50 people working there in 2012. They are gone now since two years. So, I mean, this isn't because transparency is solved in the US. It's kind of weird that especially in the US, Sunlight Foundation just died, and that's a shame. So, support your local NGO. That's it. Thanks for listening. Thank you very much. We've got time for a few questions, and if people could ask questions at the microphone, as someone is, and also seeing as we're competing with the Flamers and the music, please kiss the microphone, almost kiss it, and be nice and clear. So, yeah. Go ahead. Thanks for the presentation. I work with some civil servants in a municipality in the Netherlands, and they are opening up to our pleas for, well, open source and opening up, etc., but I have the impression that when they bring this up in their own organization, they meet IT managers that give them the 50 shades of no, and then they're kind of helpless because they're not tax-heavy IT experts themselves, so they don't have an adequate reply. Right. Do you have any resources that I could pass on that could help them, like the arguments that are really compelling that they could bring up internally, and maybe a cookbook of solutions that might help the IT manager that they would have to confront? That's a good question, and it's difficult to directly answer, because I don't know the specific questions that are happening in this case, but there's, like I said, 50 shades of no. I think it's actually 46, but there's many reasons to say no, and there's also many answers, and as I've shown with the projects that were successful or partly successful or not successful, it takes like a specific approach in each case, so I'd be happy to talk to you about some of the specifics that you run into, and maybe have a look at that. I can add one little thing to that. Sometimes one thing I found dealing with government is rather than asking for permission, ask for objections, and if you ask for, do you have any objections to publishing this information? They have to give specific reasons, and you can then go against those, but maybe that's the picture. Yeah, that's also good, then you exactly know what's wrong and work on that. Yeah, yeah. Go, sorry, get the next question. Yeah, I'm thinking about what you just said, but that's something else. Oh, sorry. No. Oh, you might need to take your mask off just to speak. Yeah, because I mean government doesn't have to reply to you actually, but that's something else. So my question is, because you mentioned Norway and you mentioned Taiwan, I think, but these seem like outliers. I mean, in my view, I think, what happens in the Netherlands is actually pretty normal. So are there other outliers or good examples? Well, yeah, that's true. They're definitely outliers. And it's I wouldn't I'd say the open data and digital transparency movement is about 15 years old. And the first, well, five to 10 years was basically just telling what the idea of open data was. And it took a lot of effort to get this this idea, you know, known across government. In the past seven years, I'd say most people in government know about being digitally transparent and know the term open data. So that is definitely progress and more data has been published. So I think the trend is in the right direction. But it could be much faster. And these these outliers like Norway and parts of Taiwan, because it's only other tongue. Well, Taiwan is doing great at many places. But other tongue is also an idol outlier within Taiwan. Yeah. Yeah. So your question is, are there more outliers? Yeah, there's good examples in many countries. I mean, the UK is doing great at someplace in some cases in the US as well. But it changes a lot over time. Yeah, I think it's going in the right direction. But maybe we can talk afterwards as well and then discuss some more. Thanks. Go, go, go. Examples you gave the company register, Kavika and Uber register that is about individuals. Do you talk to bits of freedom about the privacy implications of what you're striving for? Because there definitely are privacy implications. Lots of independent workers here at camp know that you get spammed to death once you're in the register. And Uber is even worse with unforeseen consequences where people are actually living in Netherlands because they're afraid of the well-being of their children and family. Yeah, those are valid criticisms. Starting with the company register. I mean, every country has a company register. So this is just a register that is necessary for a functioning economy. It is already a public register. It's just made more public for people with a lot of money. So to level the playing field, I think it makes much more sense if the paywall is removed. Again, in the Netherlands specifically, there's a lot of private information in this handelsregister in the company's register. I think they're trying to fix this slowly, but surely, to remove as much of this really personal information and just, you know, keep the company information left, leave that information and make sure that that's available. So your first question, the Uber registers. Yes, this is actually information about people that own parts of companies or organizations. It's still interesting to see that some countries in Europe are much more open with this data and the fears of will these people be harassed or things like this, they don't seem to be a big problem. And even if there is a really legitimate concern about the person's safety, some countries have like a clause that they could hide their information, but they have to show that they're targeted explicitly. So I'd rather say let's try to open up and see if it's a big problem. In other countries, it doesn't appear to be a big problem and it is a lot of really interesting information to know who actually owns a company or who actually owns multiple companies, who's the person behind certain interests. So yeah, it's definitely something to balance, but I'd say again, let's try to be more open instead of closing up because that's the easy way to do and it takes a lot more effort to open up and stay open. Thanks. Of course, at first, thanks for the talk and thanks for everything you said. And I was just wondering about, are there any, do you have any tips or any steps to follow? Because what you say, it's like information, it's like awareness about transparency. It's not the willingness to not be transparent, it's mostly awareness and sometimes willingness, but most of the time just the effort it takes, like you said. Are there any tips or anything civil servants could do to promote or make more people aware of transparency or any steps to follow to make sure that you work as transparent as possible? Yeah, good question. Well, mainly what I ended with, so we have an international crowd here, support your local digital transparency NGO, or sometimes they're regional, but there's always an organization focusing on a country or region. Subscribe to their mailing lists, donate. I mean, I think Open State Foundation just has a handful of monthly donors, which isn't a lot, so more would be awesome. And just spread awareness, just talk to people, yeah. Maybe if you're a developer, work together with these NGOs because it's often a lot of technical stuff that needs to be done. If you're not a developer, freedom of information requests are really easy. There's often even tools, my society builds a great tool called what do they know? And it's been ported to many countries, and it's just a click of the button to request information and publish it, put it on a website, link to it on Twitter, or mustadon or whatever, and try to open things up. But yeah, I think there are quite some steps to be taken, so thanks. Another question here. Yes, hello. So Ray, the whole company registrar and who owns things, you can go to the Danish authority, cvr.dk, and download it all as a database. Yeah, that's amazing. And that has brought a lot of businesses who use that data and the changes to generate new stories. And that will be, so this person who previously owned this is now on the board of that, and that has been quite successful. But my question was, can we support you and buy you a lovely t-shirt or some similar? Okay, what was your last sentence? Can we get the t-shirt? Yes, can we buy your t-shirt? I even have a much better sweater, which we still have a few of that you could buy. It's a grey hoodie and the back of it says, open data or it didn't happen. So I'd rather have a t-shirt. Get in contact with us and you can get a hoodie. Yeah. Oh, thanks. I've got one last question. You're saying that Norway has a policy of if they get a request, drop everything, answer the request. Yeah. Does that mean that we could DDoS Norway? Well, if people... And I'm mindful the Kremlin are watching the stream right now. It's interesting. Well, if they just handle their documents as quickly as they currently do, they'll just finish it in a week. So I guess they're up to it. Okay, brilliant. Thank you very much indeed for a very interesting talk and I hope it goes well. Thanks.