 So, good morning, everyone. Jo's virus got his hands on some NATO property, and now he's dropping hacker spaces and not bombs. So, please welcome. Good morning, Schaar. I'm here to talk about the Beehive Tech Campus, and in order to really talk about that, we have to talk a bit about the narrative. We are here at a hacker camp, and a hacker camp is an excellent place to share ideas and really talk about stuff and come up with new ideas because you hear about older ideas. I mean, if you look at former hacker camps, like, well, you see the lines here, companies sprung out of that, ideas sprung out of that, tools that better the world and society as a whole, and which is awesome. So we have to keep on doing this. But if you look at the what the heck and and and the hacking at large, ohm, last year, Schaar, and even if you count the international ones, the CCC, the stuff in England, and the Fred Fest in Vegas, you still come up with, well, a week, a year, maybe, because some of these things are once every four years, like this one. I mean, it's awesome, but it doesn't happen that often, which means that by communication in this matter, where our efficiency is close to 2%, right? If we could be doing this non-stop, just imagine what kind of ideas and new initiative could sprung out of this hive mind of mine. That would be brilliant. But we as a hacker community, we're only at a 2% efficiency if we look at these kind of communications. That's weird. Well, you might say we have stuff for that, like hacker spaces, because they don't exist only 2% of the time. True. I mean, hacker spaces are a very good place to share ideas, not unlike the stuff we are doing here today. But then again, yes, there's lectures during the day, you can do that in a hacker space, and you can have drinks that tends to happen here as well. You can do that in a hacker space, and some hacker spaces, you can even sleep and actually, well, live for a bit, but it's not catered to actually be living on premises. And as you might have noticed, because you're here a couple of days already, a lot of the actual adheres happen over drinks. Right? So it's not just looking at some dude on the stage saying, explaining his idea. Actually, having meaningful conversations later, so unscheduled stuff, that's brilliant. So doing what you want to do, but sharing with others, is probably better offline. Hacker spaces. I'm a member of hack 42, which is an item. That's a crappy picture. Well, we used to have our facility in a ex-nado base with, we were Blurred on Google Earth and everything, and now we move to this property. Next door, there's a church we can use, that we even used for hacker weddings, and this is a very functional hacker space, and it's just, it's not just technology. We talk about all the things that are interesting in the hacker community. So it works. It works perfectly, but it's not a hacker camp, because yes, we get guests every so often, and we have, but it's not as this. It's not the international world coming in full-time. So how to mitigate that? I have a dream. My dream is to buy this piece of property. Yes. This is an actual Panopticon prison. It's designed, well, to house criminals, of course. That's what you do in a Panopticon. It's designed in 1800 something, in the time that drawings were still made with pen on paper. It, the idea is that you make a round building with a huge open space in the middle and put a guard in the middle, and that guard can, can be watching you 24-7. So it's not unlike today's society, where you're totally watched online, and what happens if you perceive that you could be watched 24-7, you start to behave better, and better in this situation means that you're not behaving badly, because people might be watching you. But that also means that you become less creative, because normally, if you're in your own thought process or in your own lab doing stuff, experimenting, you will be doing dumb shit. And that's good, because if you fail often enough, at some point you will go like, whoa, this actually works. But before you have the actual idea that, that works, and that you'll be willing to spread out, to, to, to share with the world, you have to be able to fail, and have ideas that you keep private. If somebody could be watching every step of your thought process, or your design process, or your process, whatever, you become less creative. Because once there was a guy that said, he was a guitarist, and he said, when I'm on stage, and I do something really stupid that happens to sound brilliant, that took months to figure out how to actually do that really new weird stuff on, on your strings. And within that process, he's been doing that weird stuff, but it sounded awful. Right? And only after those months doing weird stuff, it sounded cool enough to actually share with the world. The steps before were not meant to be shared. So, constantly watching people this bad thing, that makes it less creative, and so a pro-optical prison is a bad thing, I think. And, well actually, if you are a prisoner, your main thought process I can imagine is to get out of there, which it's an escape room basically, and it is. Well actually, we'll get to that. So giving prisoners the perception that they're constantly watched will make them less creative and thus less likely to escape prison. So the thought process for a prison makes sense, but for society it shouldn't be. Okay, so we're going to use this evil thing to do good. And it's not just this building, it's a whole facility. Yeah, we like to think big. And because it's rather old, it has some peculiar building style. This is the actual front gate. I think it looks awesome. But the main structure, so the dome itself, is huge. That's four layers. Every layer consists of 50 cells, which are tiny, because they're prisons, and it's a huge open space in the middle. This is the map of the complete facility, and I'll show a different map which only outlights the actual buildings. Now, the round middle thing is the dome. This is the entrance where you saw the castle doors basically. This part at the bottom is newer. And we're planning, so that's officers at the moment, and that's what we're going to use it for as well. Because you can imagine this will cost a bundle of money, not just to buy, but also to upkeep. So we need to have a stream of cash coming in. So we will be giving tech companies, well companies, but most of it will probably be tech. So companies we like that share our thoughts and ideas. We'll house there for fee, of course. This is also a newer building, which is a bigger open space. We're planning to host a hosting facility there. And of course, we're going to call it high-secure hosting, because it's in a prison. So that's going to happen. And the building, the tiny building up top, that's also a newer building. And that's we're going to change into a bit more luxurious housing for people come over and don't want to have those cramped spaces. So it is either VIPs of people who actually fork over a lot of cash. So yes, we will be talking about cash. I know we are sharing economy and we want everybody to do to get what they need without and everybody should pay the same. Yeah, sure, that's brilliant idea. But then this will probably not happen because this needs an investment. What will we be doing in this facility? Well, we have room for 200 hackers. So that's a tiny village. And they will doing hacky stuff. Two years ago or a year ago, I don't know when you first heard that there would be a hacker camp here now. You didn't know what was going to happen. It's just a couple of thousand nerds in tents doing cool stuff. That was but all you knew at that time. And that it probably would be awesome, right? You didn't know the amount of tents and what the actual lectures would be about. And you had a vague idea of what would happen because it happened before. Well, this is comparable. So if you actually want to know what we're going to do here, well, you have to wait a bit. Because we don't know, we're going to do awesome stuff. Yes, there will be some housing and yes, there will be living quarters and there will be lectures. But that's about it. More of what we're actually going to do is up to the community. And like I said, we have 200 rooms that people can live in. And the idea is to make it fluid. So you will not be able to probably not be able to buy a cell and start actually living there. The idea is to rent it for a set amount of time. So you want to do a project for let's say two months. So you live there for two months. You don't have to, but that would be the optimum. And we'll get into the monostructure later because it's not just for wealthy hackers. That's definitely not the idea. But some revenue has to be in there. So this is the main hole. It's huge. And to give you an idea of scale, in that open space, you can fit other buildings like this one. This is the actual White House. According to Wikipedia, this fits in our open space and you can still walk around it. If you're not into weird political structures, this also fits two blue whales back to back. And then you can walk around it. And if you take a space shuttle and put it on his nose or on his tail, whatever, then you're a couple of feet short. So that's about the height of the... Well, if you take the nose cone off, which you want to have next to it anyway, so then it does fit. So it's a huge space that we can use. It's a huge open space. So imagine what you can do with that. I mean, there's rails across the balconies. So you can make a huge 3D printer out of that thing. You can... There's room for that. And so it's going to be a creative stuff. And what's going to happen is actually up to the guys living there. The guys doing their stuff there. Of course, there will be some structure. I mean, we're currently with five guys who have thought it up and we're trying to make this happen. And we're basically facilitating a space where awesomeness might spawn, not unlike a hacker camp. Except, well, we have roofs and other facilities. But these are just five guys. Some of them have a hacker background. Some of them know how to actually deal with buildings. So it's a group with different backgrounds that hopefully can manage this. And to heighten those chances that this will actually happen, of course, some adult supervision is required. So we started... We asked some guys to join our advisory board. So actual grownups who will look at our ideas and tell us if they're stupid or it could be better. As for now, one of our members is Bart Jakobs. He's an IT professor in the Nijmegen. He has an awesome network and he's a cool guy. On Sylvain de Leste, because also for network and the link to our hacker community. Jaya Ballou, she's a CIO from KPN. So she basically to show that we will have a tie-in with actual companies. And yes, she's part of a big company. But if you know her, her mindset is basically that of ours. She is a hacker. And one of our latest additions to that group is Peter Milenaar. There's no picture of him online available as far as I could see. We're working on that. And his experience at the moment is very good at lobbying at different parts of the world to get funding and ideas to come to life. That group will grow. That group will grow because we need more people to actually help us with ideas and what else to do. Timeline. So what is actually happening at the moment? About two years ago, give or take, the prison that we're talking about was an actual prison. Actually, that was three years ago. Yeah, well, at some point it was still a functional prison. And for some reason, the Netherlands lacks prisoners. And so they decided to close that down. And then we have a facility with a lot of rooms. And then in the world, stuff happens. So we got refugees. And some people thought it would be a bright idea to house refugees in this facility. And that actually turned out to be a good idea. But PR-wise, putting refugees in prison, it doesn't sound right. So after some point, they decided to relocate those guys, because most of them are guys, and to actually close the prison again, which turned out that the people living there, not in there, but in the surroundings, so the neighbors basically, they started to like their refugees. Because this subset of refugees, they kept busy and they integrated with the community, and they were really part of that community. So there came protests from the community, because they wanted to close this prison and get the refugees relocated. That protest was successful. And the facility remained open housing refugees for more than a year, longer than was anticipated. So having the local community on board apparently has pull. And we noticed that, so that's what we're doing. So we are in contact with the local municipality and also with the community there to figure out what their ideas are and how that influences ours. So what I'm explaining is basically lobbying. We are explaining what we're going to do and because, well, we call it a tech campus, but it is a hacker campus, and hackers, well, you guys know that a hacker is not an evil world, an evil word, but explaining that to the outside world takes some effort every now and then. But doing that in a meaningful manner and very slowly will give that idea to the outside world that we're actually doing good stuff, because I do think we are. So timeline, at the moment we're lobbying on several levels. So we're talking to the municipality and also to the government, because this building is owned by the Netherlands, the government, so no local level. And they want to get rid of it. And of course the department who has to get rid of housing has one mission, fork in as much money as humanly possible, because that's the idea. At the moment, real estate in the Netherlands, if you want to do something with a building, you have to have a permit, right? That's the way it works. And the local permit states that if I now buy this prison, the only thing I can do with this is start a prison, because that's what's in the permit. And actually at this point it's housing a escape room, which is kind of is within limits of that permit, I reckon. But if I got to buy it, I can do absolutely nothing with it without a change of that permit. So what is happening now, that the government who owns the building wants that permit to be as wide as possible, because that will raise the price. If I'm allowed to tear down this building, put high-rise in there and sell apartments, then it's quite easy to make a buck. And therefore it's also quite easy to place a huge bid on that property. If I'm not allowed to do anything with it, then of course nobody would want it, and the money they will get for this building would be quite low. So the government wants the permit to be as wide as possible. But the municipality, so the local government, wants it to be less big. Because, well, it's the part of town where, because this is that's the middle of town, but the part of town where this facility is, is a quite quiet part of town, and they don't want to have a gazillion people there. So turning it into an amusement park will not fly well with the local municipality. So that will probably not be on the permit. But what will be, that's basically, it's not fighting, they're negotiating at the moment, what can actually happen. So what they did a couple of months ago, they started a public inquiry, a marketing inquiry, so to figure out what people like us would want to do with this building. To figure out how wide the permit had to be widened to actually make a sale feasible for a good price. At that point there were 11 parties interesting in acquiring this piece of property, and they had to submit their plans. So what are you going to do? How are you going to fund that? And we're not talking about numbers yet, they need to have an idea that it's feasible what the parties are doing, and if there would be an actual party, an actual serious party to endeavor this idea. That resulted in a very expensive report, of course, because reports should be expensive, otherwise they don't exist. And in the end there are five parties left who are interested in this facility. So we lost six competitors and four down to go. That's what we're doing at the moment. And of course we're not waiting for the property to do cool stuff. We're here as well and we do cool stuff. So, and like I said, I'm a member of Hackerspace Hackverse 2 and we have a church which is also not tiny. So we use that church to give lectures because it can house quite a lot of people and to spread the word that we're going to do this beehive thing. One of the lectures we did was by Bill Binney. He also gave a keynote here. And yeah, that was a good name to get some people in that are not just from the Hacker community. And that was excellent. He was talking about, well, NSA surveillance and how they shouldn't do it, how they do it and how they fuck up. And after that we had a talk by Mitch Oldman. He's also currently at the camp. And he gave a talk about Silicon Valley and why Silicon Valley is as successful as Silicon Valley is sometimes and why carbon copies that are tried to be made out of Silicon Valley because other parts of the world also want a Silicon Valley, why they fail. And that was excellent. So it was exactly what we needed to spread the word. And besides that, like I said, we want to have a local reach. So at some point we sent a letter out to local community and inviting them for a workshop to enhance your digital security. So normal people, not RT folks. And it still, you get invited to a hacker group that's going to tingle with your laptop. So we teamed up with local police. So the police was inviting people in to secure their laptop, which was awesome. And that actually gave us an excellent outreach to the people living in the neighborhood because now they go like, we like those hackers. Those hackers are cool. So having us as neighbors might be not such a bad thing. And one of the other activities we did with Ansela van de Leest, she gave a workshop targeted to young girls between the age 12 and 17, I think, to fight online harassment and how to digital defend yourself on that. Social capital, I was talking about that. Like I said, we want those cells to be rented out. And rent means that there's a price. Some people will not be able to afford that price. That price can be paid in many ways. So if you can't afford it money-wise, if you contribute enough to the community in there, that price will go down. So if you just look at it as, oh, it's cheap housing, your rent will go up. If you think it's a cool idea and I can really share my ideas there, your rent will probably go down. That also goes for communities as well. And we want to make it local and keep it local. By that I mean we're not going to source a cleaning company from the next state, but that's going to be local. We can do that. One of our partners did a project, it's not completely related to this, but turning a huge fucking building into a housing thing and make some living quarters out of it. They did that in Utrecht and they actually got a social involvement award for that project. So we should be able to mimic at least that and make it in also place to live in. And that's basically what I have to say about this. I expect there to be quite a lot of questions. And if that's the case, please line up and if there's any interest, please leave a note at these things and we have a Twitter and a Facebook account. So for that, that is this and I'll be taking questions now. Thank you. Yes. This is more of a comment than a question. Did you consider school for programmers, technologists, school of the modern renaissance specifically dedicated for people in underprivileged minorities, potentially refugees, people with low education? Absolutely. I mean, like I said, we already did two workshops teaching how to digitally defend yourself and we're looking at the local community to actually step in and like I said, there has been living refugees there for quite some time. So getting them in again to help out and to do stuff and maybe do a course or so, that's definitely on our radar. Second question is about the branding because the building, it is the best example of Panopticon. Did you consider naming yourself Panopticon? Yes, we did consider that, but in the Netherlands there are three buildings that are identical. So we have three present. And one of them, the one in Beheida, the foundation that is taking care of that is called the Panopticon. So that would be weird. And because of the shape and the buzzing activities that we want to do there, I think Beheida kind of does the trick as well. But yeah, we did consider that. And these are some aerial pictures that we found online because it's still a prison and of course we can't fly drone there. So we didn't. Okay. I was at home in 2013 and there was a workshop on hacker basis by David from Cyberhippototalism. And one of the persons in the audience as well, I'm from hack 42 and we don't allow people to sleep over there because blah, blah, blah, blah. What did you make your, change your mind? I'm a member of hack 42. I am not hack 42. So this is a project that's pruned out of hack 42. But it's not hack 42 going big. It's one of the buildings in here. Well, there's one building that will be basic. By the looks of it now, hack 42 will move into this facility. It will not be a hack 42 facility. It will be a facility that houses hack 42. Hack 42 will be one of our first renters for a good price. And it will do its heckery thing. Hack 42 will not change. It will just move. Does that answer your question? Yeah. So probably within hack 42, you still can't sleep. But the huge big fucking building next to it, you can. Okay. They're totally separate. Well, not totally. But they're two legal entities. Yes. The one on the back. So how are you funding the initial buyout and how are you, what's the financial model, what's the, how are you going to maintain that? How the hell are you going to pay this? That's basically the question. Yeah. And who's going to own it afterwards? We've been, of course, we've been thinking about this and thinking about this hard. As it's community thing, crowdsourcing sounds like a ideal match, except these kind of numbers, because we are talking about really big numbers, are quite hard to actually crowdsource. So we are looking at funding in alternative ways. And yes, I'm quite vague on that. I do agree. So we're working on it. Let's put it like that. One of the pitfalls you can have, suppose Facebook comes on and thinks this is a brilliant idea. And they decide to fork over 20 million. We really should say no to that offer. Because then it would be a Facebook thing. And if it's a cool project funded by Facebook, I'm pretty sure I'm losing quite a substantial part of my hacker groups that I need to actually get in. So am I against funding by Facebook? Not necessarily, me as a person. But if they found the whole thing, then yes. And if they, so I would not want them as an angel investor or as a substantial investor, if we have this up and running for a couple of years and they come on and we want to give you guys shirts, I'd probably say okay. Does that give an idea of what we're going? So are you planning at least like a majority share to stay with you? Absolutely, yeah. We don't want to rent the property as a foundation. We want to buy it so it's ours so we can make actual decisions. Because if you get money by, suppose you work on funding by, for example, Facebook, at some point we will do something that will cross them. I mean, there's definitely that possibility. So then pulling funding would be a bad thing. So we don't want any revenue in that can stop at any given point because we do stuff. Yes, thank you. In the front. Very interesting. Small questions. Looking at the model itself, it seems very similar to artists in residence. Have you considered to review the current model of artists and residents, artists? I think in Netherlands there are many of them in Europe too. They have way of funding too. Would you join such kind of project or is it completely separated or artists are too different on hackers? At Hack 42 we already had an artist in residence so we know the concept. And bits and pieces of it is definitely comparable. So if we find, I don't know, a very interesting hacker project doing something in Brazil, yes, there should be funding to fly him over and to house him and do his stuff. So it basically, it's a pay-as-you-can thing but we decide if you can or not. And so yes, artists in residence, hackers in residence, it's, yeah, we're taking bits and pieces from other ideas. So if you say it's comparable too, I can't disagree on that. Yes, thank you. Oops. You're good. Hi. By the way, it's an amazing idea. I had one question about the funding but you ended up answering. So my other question is, do you believe this will resist to the zombie apocalypse? It depends what causes the apocalypse but I'm pretty sure we can keep the zombies out. Awesome. And we're trying to, well, if we buy it, in the end we want it to be as sustainable as possible. So we want to create our own energy but of the bad that will not happen because that takes a huge investment. But in time it will become greener and greener. Let's put it like that. And the buildings are awesome. The walls are awesome and that will definitely take something out. And unlike this field, this is above sea level. So we're good. For now. For now, yeah. The back. Really interesting talk. So my question is another funding question. So there was a blockchain talk before your talk and there was a blockchain talk. Yes. So in the Ethereum Foundation there was this kind of decentralized organization that they created for funding perhaps. Have you considered doing a crowdfunding campaign based on cryptocurrency? And the people who invest have a shareholder decision. Yeah, I want to avoid the joke. Like make an ICO, why not? If we're gonna do a money drive and get money in, I frankly do not care in which currency you pay me. If you throw gold bullion over the fence, I'm good with that. If you want to give me a Bitcoin share, but we will not be handing out pieces of the pie of influence in the structure. So there will be no buy-in. I want a 20% share. Here it is. You're allowed to pay a 20% share, but that will not give you 20% influence. Great. That was the thing. You're very insistent on wanting to buy the property. That's correct. Have you considered doing some other construction? For example, friends of mine do something on one of the old Dutch waterline fortresses, and they have the construction that Stadsbosby here is still the one who owns the property, but they have an Erfbacht construction, and that means that Stadsbosby is also continuing to be investing in things there. Maybe they're interested in making that combination. You don't need to do everything yourself. They're not. I personally think the best idea is to actually buy it, because then you have a say of what you can do with it. This is a monument, so you're still bound by quite a lot of laws that you can actually do with the property. It's not a complete property as a monument, and upkeeping a monument to spec takes a lot of money. But actually it's not my decision per se, because Rijksgebouwdeens, the actual owner at the moment, wants to get rid of it. They don't want to rent it out. So that option is basically off the table. So we can't even choose it even if we wanted to at the moment. Are there more questions? We have two mics open. That's it? Oh, there's one. Hi Joss, thank you for your talk. We've met earlier, maybe you remember. Yeah. You showed us a picture of J.A. Balu. Yes. Actually I'm working at KPN now, where I work at the Security Services Department of KPN, and I'm responsible for strategy execution there. How can we, or other big companies, apart from fundraising, funding this idea, help you with making this a reality? Well, KPN is an excellent example of a big company that slowly starts to listen to hackers, to the hacker community. And it's doing an excellent job in that. And so spreading that idea, spreading that mindset, and also spreading that a hacker camp like this is awesome, but that has to happen more. So embrace your hacker and do that there. That would be an excellent idea. So making it known that this initiative exists and work with it and maybe get an office there. I don't know. So if you want a remote office there or have it as a shared working space and just say upfront, yes, we want ex-working spaces there for that amount of time and we will be paying that amount. That will quite seriously help us in our funding efforts. Because then we can go to people who will supply the money and we say, well, we have these rentals already lined up. So you see it's a viable plan. So that will be a helpful thing. Thank you. More questions, still to open mics. Okay, so we're done then. Okay. Thank you. Thank you.