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You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications bell so you are notified for when my next podcast goes live. And you have got a live audience which will plug straight away, Kev, when is this? It is the 23rd of February at Cambridge Country Club in Bourne with Peter Fury, Matt Legg and Kenny Conning, Tatangardham Heist. And where do people get tickets? You get them online, you are on my Instagram, TikTok and anybody I have just mentioned on their platforms as well. So yeah, I will leave the link in the description to go and see Kev live. We can get a meet and greet photo, get to meet Peter Fury as well who is an absolute legend. But like I say today is a very interesting one, it is the first I have ever done. We have got someone who was kidnapped, took for apparently stealing a hundred grand. Kev, you were the man behind it, but now you are sitting face to face. Very interesting, how are you feeling Will? Nervous, a bit anxious, but looking forward to it. How are you feeling Kev? I am really looking forward to this change because I feel it is going to benefit Will better and I think it will benefit a lot of people outside of here in terms of maybe what they have done to people and when you meet someone, I had no idea what I had done to Will's life until I met him and the transformation as a result of hearing what I had done to him in terms of how it affected his life. It has been massive to me and I think there should be more along that line for rehabilitation and making people think about what they have done and what they may do in the future. Their actions? Their actions, yeah. Like I say Will, fair play for sitting across the man like Kev is no stranger. He is very well known in the underworld, very dangerous, not just outside the boxer ring but inside it as well. I know he can scrap like he is not a man to be fucked with if we are all honest here. But you know some dangerous people, very dangerous and capable of themselves. I know these stories out there. Let's get a back story about you though. What was your kinder back life like? Well I grew up in Northamptonshire, county of Northamptonshire, sort of like council estate boy, went to secondary school, you know national health glasses, freckles, ginger hair, bullied for all my school career. So I didn't really concentrate too much on school. I wanted to escape that. So that hands me leaving my hometown to better my life, to move on with basically get away from all the bullies where I go somewhere where I wouldn't know anybody. So I settled into a job just outside London in Reading and sort of started from there really with working with the employment service for a number of years and then got a job with, applied for another job to better myself financially and sort of climb that career ladder. I thought I was there taking on a nice new role with a distribution company which as we all know didn't go to plan, where things went adrift. Took the wrong path basically. I ended up being taken by Mr Lane here and for something that I didn't do. I believe it was something that I didn't do. I can hand on heart say I had no involvement with that as it's been proven, at least proved it after questioning under the duress as well. So somebody stole money in my eyes and somebody takes my way to try and get their money back. For me it's sort of justified but if you're innocent, 100 grand's worth of stuff went missing, you never done it and then you get kidnapped, pressure put on you and that's a different ball game from someone who's been bullied their whole life to then basically been bullied again when it's a life or death situation. What was it on up to, Kev? How did this all come about? As Will explained, there was 100,000 pounds worth of equipment stolen. The young lady that had reported it to a director first of all was reported by a young girl in the firm. They went to the police. There was enough evidence to find the people and Will had told you how they came about it. There was boxes and they were filling the boxes up with, what was they filling the boxes up with? Bricks, woods. Bricks to replace, there was a thousand pound curbs, that's what they were. They stole over 100,000 pounds worth of equipment. So the police didn't have enough evidence and the lads then went to the offices where the girl worked and they locked the doors and they were shaking the doors to get in. It wasn't Will, of course, but it was part of a football firm in Reading and then I got a phone call, asking me if I could come and speak to these lads. Were you asked any questions beforehand from the police? No, no, I was totally clueless. I didn't have a clue what was going on. On the night of the incident, my girlfriend at the time had to go to the office for some strange reason to pick up something, which I didn't think nothing of it because I just sat in the car, I think I was rolling a cigarette at the time when the door opened, which I thought was just the office lads messing around because when he worked for Kirby, it was a bit of a, you know, to motivate the salesman, you would have singing and dancing and joking with each other. That's what I thought it was, but it wasn't. What information then did you have that it was Will who had stole the shipment? This is where it gets interesting, so Will was brought to the offices for me to take. Before that, I was in these offices and everyone was in there, and they didn't know what was going down, of course, the people who worked in the offices, only the mentioned director did. So I kept them all in the offices. They said, he's here, he's here. You know, it was hard to make them all poxy tea and stuff like that, looking after them, so then a fella came in who was meant to be reported to be Will. So I've gone out to meet him. As he's coming upstairs, I've clouted with him, knocked him out. Longheater. Talk about getting two Longheaters in one night, so I brought him to, to come upstairs. I said, I know you feel interesting. You can have a crack back at me. I said, nothing's going to happen to you. He's looking at me, thinking it must be nuts. I said, I swear to you, you can hit me back, and nothing's going to happen to you. He didn't, so. And then Will turned up, and I went out to the car, opened the door, struck him several times with an iron bar, arms, head, things like that. Because at the time, what you haven't told you is that the young lady that had reported the theft to the managing director was subsequently then threatened that she was pregnant. And I only found this out after I did restorative justice with Will. And Will then told me, no, she didn't have a baby, she was pregnant. I was told that a knife had been put to the girl, and a knife had been put to the baby, and the blokes said, I'll cut you and I'll cut your baby. What has transpired out now is that the knife was put to the lady and the lady's belly, and they said, I'll cut you and I'll cut your baby. So if I'd have known that, I think I would have done a lot more to Will than I did. But what I did to him was, it was enough anyway, it was terrible. So then I went and kidnapped him, but Will obviously, he was a bit, he didn't look the way he looked now to be fair. So you can imagine I was young myself, he was young. But I took him away and I took him to some woods, rural area, laid him down in front of the car, run over him a couple of times and I did it again to make sure he was giving me the right information of where people lived. He had no choice, he had cars on his legs, he was screaming. And he knew he was in trouble because he was beating him all the time with an iron bar. But I just kept having the picture of the woman and the baby in my head. That was what I had in my head, thinking you've done this to a fucking woman, you're gonna get it. So he gave us some phone numbers to check and write his family's details in Scotland. Which is why I kept putting the car over his legs as well to check that was correct. Put him back in the car, drove him to London, a place called Hogged Back Hill, in Perryvale, and there's a bridge there with people who know the area, stopped the car, there's a canal. I took him down to the canal, whilst helping him, smashed him over the head, sprayed him a CS cast and pushed him in. Went back, got in the car. He had by then been reported missing because he was taken, he hadn't been seen. He was in hospital for a number of days. Didn't know his name or anything because of a concussion and such. And the hospital found a phone number in his trousers and phoned that number. And then they come about and said, yeah, my will's missing. He reported missing in Parkshire, Reading, and that's how it came about. But what I would like to say, first of all, I apologise to Will. I've apologised to him previously anyway, and he knows half out that I mean that. I got the wrong fella, but I got the right fella as far as I was concerned. And I brought shame on myself on a few podcasts I've done about this and I'm saying I kidnapped the wrong fella, kidnapped the wrong fella without telling them the real facts. But I hope people understand now it's all better. But when he was, the police arrested him or cooking him a question after being of what was done to him, they were proper giving it to him. Sound like we'd get worse on what he's done to you and all the rest of it. You've done this, you've done that. Proper give it to him, at him in the cells and everything. So then I got arrested and I was what is funny about this, I laugh about it, he's my best friend, because the old Bill said if Lane's there, La Mer's there, Nick him. So he got Nick, I spent four months on my mind. I'm laughing about it now because he goes nuts about it. I said, well you're my best mate, you couldn't let me get anyone on my own, could ya? So he laughs about it now but yeah and then we had a trial and the police got caught out lying in that as well. I don't know what they took from what will happen but the witnesses were met at the end of the road but one witness was just phoned up by the police to do with the IDs because it wasn't picked out on an ID parade and then when an ID parade and the police met this girl at the end of the road and says, we wanted to make a new statement they phoned her up at home and asked her to meet her at the end of the road and when she got in the back of the car there's my file and pictures of me. So she said, yes it looks like him it's not him. When it came to court the statement said yes it looks like him, it's him. She said, I never said that. So the chief inspector had changed the statements. I got immediate bail and subsequently I was on bail for some time then we went to court at two trials hung jury, couldn't get a trial then a second trial the jury was in Oxford Crown Court and the jury was during the heat wave and in 91 wasn't it? 92? 92, there we go. I remember the heat wave then at the time and the jury was being told to go into a hotel room they went out and came back in no time at all with a guilty I went downstairs to confer my barrister John Williams we was called back upstairs the jury came back in with a question for the judge or a note for the judge should I say and they told the judge that had made a wrong decision and the judge said well I've got to take your first answer on this. I said only game show you want to and he said I understand I did say that and he said I understand there's going to be immediate appeal on the bail application and I told my barrister not to appeal I said don't appeal I said don't ask for bail I said I did it and I just faced the consequences and the judge went two years, two years, two years and two years I thought it was about 8 to 12 years I was told I was going to get and he gave me two years to run concurrently he said Mr Lane he said you've acted as a vigilante he said we can't have that in this country and the jury obviously he said I'm going to say thank you very much he gave me the two years to run concurrently I said thank you very much John I went downstairs and got on with my bird how does it feel when you hear came to that and ate me I'm playing over just when you're hearing someone repeat it the man who's done it how does it make you feel no I accept it previously it was hard you know to talk about it because there's a lot of people who are watching this thinking this explains a lot now to my attitude basically I've got a short a bit of a short temper when I lose it I lose it but answering your question I haven't really spoken about it to many, many people in the past up until about well since 2015 when the bull started rolling again for me so basically I had a bit of a low period where it not gone away I was still having the nightmares and the dreams come 2015 I was sat watching a palmarama program and well no sorry I was flicking through the channels and all of a sudden Kevin's face popped up but the face I remember from the 90s the young face and then I was still a bit younger I was just trying to get rid of my card sorry being still young looking but no it's one of those things where I've kept up until 2015 I've kept privately you know I mean no one knows other than a handful of people of what I went through my family don't understand what I actually went through because I disassociated myself with after the incident because I thought in my head he's out there he's got friends and he's still going to get me because he went to prison and they still want the money this was all going through my head and you know I couldn't talk about it but when I was at work I had so much work to do it was a distraction and but when I was coming home at night and going back to my digs I would tell wherever I was staying that's when I would hang up the work face and the victim face would come back basically and I would just sit thinking all the time why what did I do why did people think I stole this money why did people do this why did he do what he did to me what age are you at 56 why was it you did someone point a finger at you to try myself but why would you escape well I can answer part of that question but I can't answer it fully but from what I gather is people the way I dressed what I was wearing at the time because at the time there was no money around at the time everybody was making making money but I was going to charity shops and buying it like a designer shirt for about a fiver and telling people I bought it cost 50 quid in the shop a bit of bull and people think he's always got money but I just looked after my money at the time I got paid I looked after it a lot of people used to blow the money same day as they got paid I used to sort of string it out throughout the month and when it got to that month people would think where is he getting the money from but it's just something I had done I can see this strain in your face were you always like that since the incident that brought all that on no it was since the incident yeah I've been funny with money I don't have money I don't really save anything because I don't want people to turn around do you stole that I stole the money if I get money I spend it I don't have savings because I don't want anybody to turn around and say where you got your money from how does it make you feel ok when you hear the story and the damage it's done from all those years ago to now do you see this trouble no I think about all the time I told him today I might be into coming to some money soon need some bit of money he'd be taken care of and I feel like I owe that to him at least but I ruined his life he was homeless he lived on the street absolutely ruined his life to meet him and hear that look I'm not a bad person I've just done some bad things to fucking people who deserved it he never so that makes me feel terrible he's he's drunk and drugs he's been on alcoholic all down to me when I'm getting a front car with someone he gets in a car and they take a long turning as soon as they pull over he's out the back out the door won't sit in the front is it the front you want to sit in isn't it Will won't sit in the front with people because that's why I took him from the front seat took him years to get over that and a lot more that we will tell you about but to hear what you've done to someone through your actions when they're sitting in front of you now if you're an absolute heartless bastard then you won't have an effect on you but I'm not and I've got to tell you I think about it all the time I talk to Will we communicate, we have a laugh he goes to work and as you know I was on the banged up program and on his meetings and he says does anyone want to fag and goes to put out a parcel out of his ass so it's a bit flippant I say that but as you know what I did on banged up with the Johnny Mercer the MP but for Will what I did in the past I'm hoping that I can change his life for the better get rid of that ruck sack that he's carrying about on his back and park it up and he does seem to be changing he's telling me about some positives in his life now that weren't there before we met but getting back to her it makes me feel I believe that this is a way forward for anybody who's committed an act like this or many other acts for them to realise the impact that has on that person how it impacted them for many years to come it makes me feel ashamed I tell you what Will when it takes a brave man to sit across the man who's basically destroyed your life and try and get some closure on it like it's unbelievable and I've never seen many of these interviews in fact I've never seen an interview where the kidnap sits across from the victim and they're just having a discussion and hopefully other people can learn from it and understand Kev and understand the destruction that that life causes especially if it's an innocent man but you wouldn't care if it was somebody who if it was warranted and they deserved it but it's the fact of the addiction comes you're still paranoid, you're still get scared and it does just destroy your life totally what's your recollection recollection of that day of the incident as if it was yesterday basically it's something that's tattooed and embedded in my head all the time going back to what Kevin was saying after the incident, after the court case after Kevin got banged up and got his sentence it was a case of bye bye from the police and that was it, I was left on my own basically no support, no sort of victim support no anything to help me not even a lift home from the court not even a lift home, I had to get a train home that day to the court, but it didn't take me home it took him to the court because he wasn't going to go he was like, I'm going to know I'm going to tell you that when they come in you were missing on the first one, didn't you? yeah, well basically the trial was supposed to be in Red and Crown Court on Tyler's Road the police had sent two detectives around to pick me up to take me to court but I had gone for a walk four o'clock in the morning I was just walking and walking and drinking and doing drugs doing stupid things because I didn't want to go I just didn't want to go but the police actually phoned me a couple of hours later saying that your cost is a fortune you've had to suspend the trial you've had to relocate now and we'll be picking you up making sure you're not drinking I said, no you can't do that so the second day of the trial was at Oxford Crown Court me and my mates got there a bit early I had the taste of a drink and that drink turned into a full blown session before 10 o'clock and I was absolutely steaming the police and courts refused to let me stand that day so the police took me home that night made sure I didn't drink do drugs, well I did do drugs I didn't let them stop me do that so I did the drugs and they took me to court the next morning I gave my evidence basically that was it, see you later come back tomorrow, no we don't want you to come back and listen to anything that's going on so I was told not to become a, what do you call it a spectator basically and again it could be risk someone could be potentially waiting for you to take you outside of the court was that not a concern though because you know how dangerous it was and what you put you through to then be sitting on a dock well it was but at the end of the day before he was locked up and I was free and I knew I got so paranoid where I would stop if I was walking down the road I would stop down in the street and actually walk back the way I'd come just to see if anybody was following me because I heard of his tactics like bushes falling in your car, watching you sending other people to follow you so I was off for 30 years that went through my head as he followed me to jail was that not a concern when you gave evidence, were you ever worried because you know how what was your comeback were you ever thinking about just fucking off the police promised me a lot of things which they didn't fulfill they said they would make sure you looked after the case, it was none of that what did they promise? they just said they would try and get you relocated somewhere if you wanted anywhere in the country if you wanted to move out the area a bit of relocation sort of like name-changer but they would sort of like help me and go to an area and then put some kind of flag on me if there was an incident the first person they would go to would be Kevin basically so I was like, you know he's been injured again, why is he injured what do you know about it so that's where they would stop their chain of command so even we'll give evidence care for you thinking of finishing a job I had people at court what, say it now and they were there for a reason like he said some people in the court I had as well as outside for the right reasons I never thought about finishing, you know I've done my time I thought, listen I'm happy with the crime, I've done it so I've never not once did I think about going back and finding him at all no, not at all but what's important here is that what the police actually did to him when they had him in the police station I know I'm not diverting the injustice of what's already happened to him by myself but he should have been taking care of a lot more in terms of psychologically the beatings he got he used to go shopping at 4 o'clock in the morning at night rather than going to day time because there's more people what I'd done to him is that that would have affected his life so I'm glad that I did think about going back and getting some of the other football the blokes that had done it with him about going on a surface then it's come home and got him in my life but it's always in the back of your brain I'm not thinking about going to get him now by the way who knows see when you get kidnapped were you thinking you were going to die I thought that was it it's weirdly when I've had my therapist ask me that same question not just you but a lot of people have asked me what was going through your head other than the white lights I was getting with the beatings I was having little flashbacks to childhood in the garden it was weird it's one of those things hard to explain even to my therapist I had my sister and my mum in the garden and that just flashed up and I remember the black Labrador playing with him it was just weird but it's one of those things where you think that's it you're saying you're farewell to yourself and I didn't expect to get out he thought he was going to die see when you pushed him in the canal were you trying to kill him excuse me I did not give two monkeys father asked me to get in there you put a knife to a baby and the mum I don't care what happens to you but I didn't try to kill him it was more like I thought you're going to get in there you're going to get soaking wet and you've got to get all the way back to a ready and you're going to be freezing your tits off careless careless action could have caused his death but I wasn't trying to kill him and I'm telling that openly my thought pattern was you're going to suffer and now you're going to be cold so a bit of punishment it's all punishment, not murder luckily he got out and a bloke walking along with his dog found him and called the police and took him to the hospital it's it really is I mean the relationship with his daughter the impact of my actions on him and how it impacted on them so you can sit in prison for a crime you've done 20 odd years to get released later by the time I got went away from the murder then meet the person you've kidnapped and then find out what I'm telling you in here now then that has a massive transformation on me in my life although I'm a reformed person now to a certain degree I have to accept you've still got agreements in you that would don't agree with a lot of things but I really do believe that what I did to him has affected me massively in my thought pattern and how I am as a person now more so for what I did to him but going forward and it would definitely affect other people if they was to meet the victims of their crimes at an early age and see that person in front of them he broke down crying in the story of justice when I met him and it was very powerful it was in a dark, dingy little cold cold, wasn't it real? cold man, I mean my cock went that small I don't know what I'm getting to I don't know what I'm doing and then I said come on we'll join when we left I'll give him a cuddle on that and I said big hug it's all getting a chain I said do you want to lift and he looked at me I said come on let's go and get something to eat I said do you want to lift mate he goes oh Kevin yeah he took me to his own where he lived and dropped him off and then since then we've been building on the trust and the relationship because it's still very difficult for him you have to understand that but he felt comfortable enough to get in my car after that but still suffers massively there's not deflect from what I've done to him and how it still but in the restorative justice we had a judge there someone from restorative justice as well my former ex who was there so he was a lady present there she was in the car as well she wasn't on her own she was a pleasant, friendly, pretty lady that must have made you feel better I should have gotten to see her on your lap mate I don't mind that I don't mind that would ya see you get pushed into the canal though but what's going through your mind that that's the the key point because when with the bash to the head I was actually out out of the three white lights I saw that that was the fourth and that was the brightest of all and I remember my face burning but I didn't know you'd see yes gasp me until I'd find out but what happened was when I got hit I saw the light my face burning and then the next thing I knew I was under water and I was splashing around and then I thought for some reason I managed to get under the bridge and I heard the car speeding off and then that's when I started sort of thinking I've got to get out of here before it was freaking freezing the water because it was March it was actually ice cold water and what the Augustus wreck was I had a shock basically with hitting the cold water you could either die with hitting the cold water or it could jolt you to make you come back and that's what happened to me it was one of those I was under the water and it was life coming out of the water and that's when I thought I have to get out of here and basically I floated a little bit down I followed the stream and then to the other side of the bridge and then got out actually got out and hid for about four or five hours because every car it went past I thought it was coming back it crawled across the road hid behind this like bush I could see two houses in the distance but I thought and every time I heard a car they're coming back to check to see make sure I'm gone I'm dead and that was gone through and then I think it was about six across the road and start knocking on people's doors and they'd blow it on the door thought I'd been hit by a car even the ambulance crew turned up thought I'd been hit by a car cause he might have injuries I had were you drinking I think drugs then no no no I was I was a young and I was going to raves I was doing ecstasy I was heavily into the trance scene club scene so I was doing drugs but not every day it was more Friday Saturday night friends and I were getting pissed off and then gone to the raves and that was my that was my scene at the time how would you have felt care if you had caught them once you think it was innocent oh god bloody you can't put that into words in terms of I look hurting people who deserve it pretty much doesn't leave an impact on me I think you're a nasty bastard you deserve all you got let's face it the police can't protect everybody which is why people go to people like me I'd just like to say as well not deflecting from what you've just said is that I've only been arrested for one other kidnapping I've kidnapped a few people and they just really deserve what they've done what I've done to them um apart from the murder as well so I have to say that the people I had kidnapped previously never went to the police because if they knew what they'd done was wrong in the first instance so I'd never had any impact on my moral standing on what I'd done but for what I did to him if I'd have found out he was innocent and I think it would have really really I think it would have changed me in a sense where I don't know how I would have handled it but it would have been very bad I think it would have affected me mentally in that it would have eaten away at me because things like that eat away at me as in thinking he'd put a knife to a baby that would have eaten away at me because that stems from my brother getting bullied as a child when he got run over by a bus running out from behind the bus um so bullying comes very bad for me but people might say I'm a bully well I'm not actually a bully I stand up to bullies because you called me a bully once will didn't you and I said to him I'm not a fucking bully will and I stood in the ground with him then he told me a bully fair play to him at all and that shows that he's come forward but yeah I can only just say to you honestly it would have really really messed my head up because I think God you think you're so righteous and look what you've done now but I still ruined his life I have to live with that but in a sense now I'm trying to make it better now and in the right so in the right best way I can and now we've met he understands that I'm not such the picture he had in his brain of me I can you imagine what he must have thought of me can't you and what type of grotesque person I was and probably still some people may think I am a grotesque person but now he's met me and he sees a difference between what I did to the person I am when I'm like we are now calm and collective it doesn't resonate with what I did to him only now he thinks about what I was told about what he did that helps him to justify in his head why I did it but then he has to ask the question why me because he was put forward by his colleagues and people in the area so when I used to say that I can't get the wrong person me I did but I didn't so it would have really really affected me as it has done now which is why I want to put it right but I mean look today we've got his hair cut in swells, barbers and hillingdon he looks 10 years younger I've been a little older before this I was going to take him for a sunbed okay in the hair field in the beach house I thought you can have a sunbed whatever you hair cut that's where we are now and I went for a coffee with him the other day before this I said come and have a coffee because he's nervous there's anything about coming on here today James and I understand that and I said come and you'll be alright James he's great it's a right nice set up and I think it'll do you good to get it off your chest to let people know your story and further from that you have to try and look on the positives of stuff I'm not trying to make it right again I'm an ambassador for restorative justice because I think his case is so unique but do you know what he did he goes well as a double he said I come as a team he said I'm not as male he says Kevin Lane as well I said really would he appear he goes yeah but I had no idea about that until today he said no you want me you have to have Kevin and all I mean come on what does that show about if people could do restorative justice in a manner that we in will have done it look where we are now and now it's affected him so it's messy to even be here well man it shows you your character it shows you how brave you are and I love Kev to bits and Kev knows this but Kev's got characteristics and his presence his mannerisms he's still fucking scary I like a wind up on that but I think should I say a certain thing because if I end up in the back he's fucking because he's got that presence now I've interviewed a lot of mad bastards and Kev's up there is oh I'm not going to fuck it's these mannerisms there's something there where you know he's dangerous you just know when he's talking you're sitting them across obviously there's a bit of trust there but obviously because if I feel that and like I say we are friends I wonder how you would feel when you know it's like Kevin said that restorative justice basically when I met Kevin when I heard him say he got it wrong and he was sorry my I don't know what happened I don't know what happened to to my head but I was blubbering I was just burst into tears I just couldn't control myself I was just but then I went to the therapist the day afterwards and she said that what that was was almost 30 years of build up of hearing that he's sorry basically and it was just hearing that just clicked it just went into one and I was drooling and crying my eyes out I just literally I felt terrible when you thought you know he's sorry for what he done basically when you got out and you were waiting for four or five hours what happened after that I was taken to hospital initially I was a John Doe because I had no idea on me literally the night I go out without my wallet with nothing other than a packet of cigarettes and some tobacco and the phone number at Kevin had was a friend of mine who had a new phone and wrote his number and I'd actually put it inside the packet of cigarettes and it was the only dry bit of thing when they pulled once they searched my clothes but I just when I come out of hospital it was a case of you know I just I just couldn't I can work out why me basically why all this why I went through all of this and it just but when I was in hospital it was two or three days of just staring at the wall and people looking at you okay what's your name can you remember anything and then I think it was the second day I live in Reading Reading and they were going okay and the police were saying that because they thought I'd been in a road traffic accident and of course once they'd found the number they'd wrong it and there was a friend of mine he was missing for three days he was taken and that's when it all started they asked me questions when did you find out if it was the wrong person two weeks after I kidnapped him it's the ID coming over to arrest me and it just reminded me actually there so I had a security company at the time about 120 blokes working for me was 1992 1991 so I wasn't at hold to have such a large security firm at the time and if you needed Dorman they had to be Dorman they were there for a reason so in the papers the son said security boss Kevin Lane so he had that on his head and all that he'd been kidnapped by security boss he's got a load of blokes working for him so that must have had some bearing on his thought pattern they come and arrested me took me to Reading magistrates court kept me in the cells a few days I didn't talk to him didn't even talk just didn't you know in a cup of tea nothing back of a car nothing so got to Reading went to the court reminded my best mate I shouldn't laugh about that reminded my best mate and my best mate goes to me listen you can't perform in here like before me outside what are you fucking talking about I'll tell you this little story it's a bit of humour so we've gone into the holding tank two holding tanks I'm sitting there he's done borscht on everything went to school in Oxford and all real clever bastard he's a bit of a rough diamond so it's getting to start rolling a spliff my and my mate smoked and I know he meant to leave everything back from people right so at the time I've gone into Reading I've gone into Reading prison and this sort of things happening is distracting me so you've gone into I'm in prison now and this fella he's only meant to leave that for people mate so although I've been reminded for kidnapping I've still got a thought pattern about me well what's right what's wrong's wrong he went no I'm taking it home with me my mate's twitching and all sorts and he's going keys have gone in the tank next door he's gone Kevin Kevin I'm out the bleeding chair and I out off the bench gone into him in the next cell to see you I said if you don't give me that puff I said I'm going to hit you that many times you think you're surrounded now fucking hand over and you give me the puff I went back in the tank and give it to the lads I've been remanded for kidnapping I've gone into prison and I'm still behaving as if I was on the street and I can carry on that way I had a few problems in the prison in terms of other people and the way they're behaving so it didn't impact on me in that manner and I still thought all I've done was right Justifying that Justifying it for many many years until I met him and then when I met him I thought my god what have I done to that man and I tell people all the time you've got no idea what I did to him I've ruined his life I tell people all the time tell my nephew Teddy the weekend so I've ruined him his life by my actions How do you think your leave would have been if you never went through that getting up and then torture I've probably been married four kids, couple of dogs living in the country happily but it's like when you get to the junction you can go left or right I think that night I went left I feel as though I've probably been in business at some point my own business because that's what I've always wanted to do was run my own business be a business man work for myself rather than others but that never ended up the rest of my life just working for others just working under their ruling rather than my own not holding a job down for too long moving on all the time moving on I had a space where I was lucky enough to actually get a job with a construction company I travelled around the UK projects were two, three years in length so all mechanical and electrical projects I was finding myself in Killroot for three years Northern Ireland Scotland North East Coast Cambridge, Germany all then places but working on projects and that was a distraction basically but as soon as the company finished trading I took my redundancy and that's when I sort of thought this is easier if I can find the same job but I couldn't all I was finding was like nine to fives and basically after two or three weeks I couldn't hack it it was too many people I was paranoid in the office because I wasn't technically in charge someone else was in charge and I didn't trust anybody I would just make excuses and resign or falling sick until they got annoyed with me for not turning up everything that you've went through the torture, the kidnapping being innocent about it but then your mental health goes, you end up an addict you end up homeless I wish the care for just killed you that day in a way, yeah but it was a stage in 93 where I attempted my own life so I took six bars out of my drunk half a bottle of vodka and I woke up I was thinking this would be it thank god it was only six, aren't you I just I don't want to go back there it annoys me, I stupidly even thought of doing something as stupid as that night but I just it got to a stage where I couldn't handle it anymore it was just constant every time you know, barricading myself in my room you know, anybody coming to the door because I was living in shared accommodation I was thinking, is that them, is that them or bangs at the night I would wake up and that would be me, I wouldn't go sleep again even to this day I would wake up between three and four o'clock in the morning I can't go shopping anymore because all the shops are closed they don't open them since Covid but what I used to do was when I would get up and do me shopping I would go out three, four o'clock in the morning knowing that no one's going to be about the only people who's going to be about are police in the amount of times I got stopped by the police at night, I said, where are you going I'm shopping, alright okay what have you got on you, so I'll be treated again so I've lived life with that can I just ask you please Will to reflect on when you was in how the police what they said to you about you think that was bad what were you going to do with you and stuff like that this is a victim who's nearly been killed and yet the police were threatening him you take the lead when they take him off from the hospital the journey to Reddon police station was worse in the journey with Kevin the constant you think what he did to you we can meet you disappear where's the money where is it constant but it was legal what they would do as Kevin put me through was illegal but they were doing it the legal way we don't believe you we never believe anybody they just kept on going on and on pressurising and when they realised hold on you just sat through nearly an hour and a half of this we're not getting anywhere you feel that you had nobody to turn to I just felt lost again why me, why are people saying this what have I done it took me back to the bully days of school yet Billy Billy let's send Billy a birthday card but let's put dog shit in it and post it through his front door I was just thinking why me what have I done to people to deserve this what have I got something written on my forehead thief criminal I don't know I just can't fathom it but I'm hoping people will realise now I'm not a bad person we can see that my heart likes and my heart goes out here and I was involved and I know you're a soft guys we all care for that madness I know you've got a big heart so when you're hearing that how does it make you feel I mean most of my path in life has been down to my brother being bullied at school due to the accident he had as I've said before and then most of what I've done to people in the past to pretty much all of it is due to injustices that the police were unable to rectify so to hear to meet Will there's no other type of man he is now I've got to know him I was so sad so sad you know because I've always thought it was a bit of a John Wayne fire for the underdog this face here we can't be protected by the police in this country anymore they're so overrun etc etc so I do see myself still as a bit of that in terms of you know people look to someone who can look after them and maybe be a bit of a negotiator when people are falling out so I know where this could go and I don't so but I'm not justifying it by the way but it doesn't make me feel good I can't justify my head cannot justify my head I say to myself what I did to him I got an angel on this side saying well you thought you were just doing what was right and then over his head but look what you did to him look how he is now the devil over here might be saying to me look what you did to him I'll take that as a positive look what I did to him so I can do some benefit in my head not what you wanted to do bad do you understand what I mean by that I take what he said and think well hold on look you're making me realise what I did more than my own head when I'm battling with my good bad good bad um to hopefully do better for other people in terms of just being ambassador on that because it has been massive to me it's massively thought about God do I want my son to go and do that to people no I don't do I want my son to go and wipe off no I don't or my son should I say thankfully the elders too haven't but it's had a massive impact on me at L thinking about my life in the past massively thinking about things all the time it's all the time I'm thinking about this stuff more so when I meet well again all we have contact via the phone or something you know we mentioned to me what's happening with James and we went to channel for a bit of doing a documentary of a story of justice that would be really powerful and I think that would be great for many people both sides of the fence yeah that's just powerful just used to sitting here today I don't really realise how powerful this is going to be for people to understand the effects that it has on not just bullying but just the torture and the misery that people have to go through and the pain of the ripple effect of the whole you've got a question now everything that you've done in your life all the motives all the justifying because even if somebody did deserve it even if they've got a wife or kids the effect it has on their brothers or sisters or lums or dads even though at least if somebody stole my I'd deserve a kick in the balls don't get me wrong it's when they go home to the family life and they're scared and they're peeking through the blinds and they turn to drink they turn to drugs they're suicidal they're hating themselves they're blaming themselves because it sounds as if no disrespect well but you've been a victim your whole life yeah and you're writing what you say James with family I disassociated myself from my family because I didn't want and I hope they'll understand this now I didn't want any association with them and Kevin or his colleagues would find where my family were living because you hear the you hear rumours that they get you to go down the family chain until he extinct basically and this was going through my head so if I don't talk to my sisters have no contact if any of you know about my sisters I have to keep myself to myself become a loner you know with a clues you know have no friends which I have got you can count my friends on one hand basically and that's the way I looked at life that's the way I sort of think then I sort of like built my relationship back with my family after I call it my dark period because it was five years of my life I'll never get back after the incident that was homelessness that was drink that was drugs and that was just basically five years of you know like wander around with a cloud in my head constantly thinking why me and looking for the next bottle of vodka the next bottle of special brew or the next 8th or the next wrap of coke you know working to feed my habits and it just got to a stage where it just I can't continue this way I need to you know I knew I got I got a phone call from the police in 94 saying that Kevin being sent he'd been sent to prison for murder and basically you walk in there but you'll come out feet first you'll spend the rest you'll probably end up getting killed in jail so he said please said to me you can just calm down now you can relax he's gone but I never relaxed and it's never going to go away you know no matter what drugs you take to block it out it's just ain't going to happen but that's why I call my dark period suicide the homeliness you know the things I went through people don't understand because there is a big void in my life between 92 and 97 because I was going to ask that when Kev get done in prison did it make it easier but obviously it didn't and why didn't you reach out to him quicker once you realized it was the wrong guy I didn't know until we done the story of justice away I thought you found out a few weeks later that it was he was innocent he told me I told him it was all through the story of justice I thought you knew a few weeks later I knew a few weeks later when I got nicked I'd been nicked for it but I didn't know until years later it will told me it weren't him it was the geiger in the stores working with him and that way went through with the police and everything else what I did to his life I say to people now I ruined his life I destroyed his life for years and I say that to people and I say it with like because I want people to realize to understand people's actions so no I didn't know see if you did do it do you think you would have gone with your life better if I did stick it I would have taken it on the gender chain and moved on with my life and probably done what they left the country just to get out of any any sort of like comeback what as historical justice for people who don't know what it is it's basically where the victims of crime can meet the actual perpetrators of that crime and it's basically down to the individual not so much the victim it can be flipped both ways it can be like Kevin can ask to see me or I can ask to see Kevin but it is a long process it took about just over a year and a bit to actually get the face to face because you had to go through a lot of interviews and security basically because I remember Martin saying to me I don't want you flying that in with a gun or a knife so we have to make sure you're stable and calm enough to do it whose idea was it it was mined through my therapist she said for closure the best thing I can recommend because it was one of those therapies where it's usually a six week program but I ended up having 17 weeks worth of therapy you've longest in the Surrey matters was that the first you'd ever done therapy? what was that like the first time really going in depth and speaking was that the first time you spoke about that? it was emotional but it made sense the way they dealt with me describing the brain as a filing cabinet and what's happened is you've opened it and everything's blown out so now let's start refiling everything into an order and basically the last order that was restorative justice putting closure meeting the individual who hurt me and who still hurt me today well not so much hurt me at the time who hurt me but was hurting me then what you think you're naming your therapist all the years of hurt and torment trying to take your life homelessness ruined family ruined your chance of having kids and a wife and the business what you thinking? I was heading back to the dark days that's where I could see myself going because what I'd noticed was I'd rather have a glass of wine I was drinking a bottle of wine and then that bottle of wine went to me and I was like whoa again you know next thing you'll be doing the popping the pills and doing the crack and all sorts of stuff and I didn't want to do it and I just thought I've got to do this I have to do this and if he says no he says no I was going to actually paint him a letter and just explain to him a letter as well because that was the other option after if it was a no you could actually write to them but from that day it's been the most best experience I've ever had it's closed things for me it's made me see sense now I still ask myself why me but I now understand why it was me that night it was chosen and the reason why and the remorse that Kevin's got for his actions that night what he'd done to me Even though Kevin's dangerous there aren't a lot of criminals as well who are very dangerous but you're braver than any one of them just so you know that for you to sit there and just want to meet the guy who basically was fucking trying to kill you like we all know how ruthless people can be but to you then what if face that that's a strength isn't it Kevin people were saying to me at the time I'm a good contact with a friend from the incident who I've known from right through from 1990 right through up until this present day and when I told him I was meeting Kevin he wanted me to ask him back before he put me through I said he's not asking back I said he has reason there's got to be a reason behind it and understanding that reason and the reason is he got it wrong and he's remorseful and I'm accepting that I'm not I'm not one for holding grudges unbelievable he is what am I going to do? stalk him and kill him and then me doing it 30 years bird why did you agree to it Kevin what you had to say about what happened and I thought he would do me good it's crazy that's it I thought you need to listen to someone and hear what you have to say about what you've done to him it wasn't the case of it was for the better rather than the worst I was in myself I've got compassion and I fall I need to hear what this man has to say I didn't think much about that's when they asked me with stock of justice and I heard that he had asked for it I thought I owe it to him and I went based on that reason alone that I owe it to him to sit in front of him to give it to me and I thought that he was going to be quite abusive quite attacking you've done this you've done that you horrible bastard because they said to me with stock of justice listen it's kicked off in some of these meetings before to get in between people and people who've tried to hurt people and stuff like that not too much of that but there's been problems along the way so I had that vision in my head but I thought I'm prepared to go there and take that but in the case it's turned out for the better for Will more so than me how he's now thinking he's going on with his life he doesn't have a beard anymore cut the beard off but he's now moving on with his life he's a lot happier and he does things now that he wasn't doing before surely anybody who's committed such an atrocious crime and they know they're in the wrong do restorative justice do it for the better of you and for more so for the person what you've done to because there's two people that need repairing this and it's myself for the right reasons and Will definitely more so for the right reasons prior to myself but it shows collectively as an offender and a victim how he can both see he sees the light now for how he's leading his life better now and he's getting rid of the baggage he's been carrying around that I caused for me it definitely makes you think about your actions how much does it then soften you up to then look at your whole life and your whole look in the shit that you've done because men are very good at putting everything to the side and blocking everything out if you don't want to feel pain and emotion but even today I can see the emotion in your face so how much has this made you question everything in your whole life and how's it like you said it's made a massive impact on you to then seeing the damage that you've done I don't think I would have been the man I turned out to be if I had a father around for the first instance and many people say oh that's an easy excuse most people who go to prison don't have dads around high percentage of them so they go away with life mine was brother not having a dad around I think there's a lot to be thought about that but I believe that regrets a big word of course I regret some of the things I've done to two people in particular really just two unless I've done a lot of things a lot of people so try and you have two and that's two more than it should have been it's weird I think about all the time it's the answer to that and I think about my younger son now and how I go over and above to make sure that boy is it's not going to be like his dad make the mistakes that I made he's like his dad because nature and nurture I've seen things in my son now oh my god that explains there we go I'll just answer the question there I see things in my son that explains the way I am the way I am so I say to people don't tread on my toes or stamp on yours so a couple of times I go my little boy he's six I say there you don't do that and I put my toe on this toe you're going to stamp on my toe straight away oh my god he's just like his dad don't touch me because I will come back at you and he is the sweetest boy he's been brought up exceptionally well by his mother and his grandparents and his aunties and such and he's the school favourite by the teachers and lots of friends and the girls chase him a lot apparently which I love for him to say he says yeah dad did they chase me I said did the girls chase you yeah as if he was shocked but nature and nurture it's given me it's made me understand a lot about myself after what I've done to Will meeting him really has so and it will continue to do that and I hope it helps other people going forward to sit down and have the courage put your hands down your pants and find your bollocks is what I say to them and step forward and say I want to meet my victim if the victim hasn't come forward already because it will be transformation and life changing for you for the better it will be, it has to be and hopefully it may stop you going to prison and doing a lot more good in your life and having a bit more consideration and judgement for why people do things that make mistakes I've made a mistake but people still like me for all the things I've done in my life am I a horrible bastard do I have so many decent people across the board Judith Christie Duncan Campbell producers who warmly welcome me down to a basic dustman who say basic but down to what people say I'll bleed now I've had a dustman getting rid of our rubbish we'll have a terrible country so I respect them but what I meant by that is a road sweep I've stopped in the past I've stopped for a while and thanked road sweepers for doing the job that a lot of people won't do I said thank you for that you've fulfilled a book he started crying and what I mean by that is I will die of justice and I think you'll have a different outlook on life how would you feel if your son went down the same footsteps as you I'd use a term lightly he would kill me I will die before I would do everything in my power to stop my son going down that path and going to prison or hurting other people it's a life I don't want him to lead I wanted to do it see cadets get some structure, some discipline I'm teaching boxing now a bit of jujitsu I also have magic lessons you can learn in a magic circle so you'll have discipline where you understand the use of violence for defending yourself recognize sport but not for inflicting pain and injury on people which I realised I could do from a young age how was it facing Kev for the first time after everything you'd put you through all those years whatever the story of justice that was emotional but it was a relief and hearing him say sorry and his remorse made me feel a lot more comfortable and happy within myself knowing that he's sorry he's got it wrong and he explained that I think it was a coffee afterwards we're generally roping it it's just truthful isn't it Will there's no bollocks here I think it was a coffee afterwards I just realised it was a shock afterwards do you want to come for a coffee I've only just met you you nearly killed me years ago let's go and have a chat what was the bold up to then knowing that you're going to meet them obviously being a bit soft and sensitive now you've been through as a team where you doubted your decision in case you finish the job off in the meeting the couple of days before the meeting was scheduled to happen at Google Earth any place I'm going I know it sounds weird but it's snatch points so I was googling around where we were going to be meeting as a potential snatch point so I ain't going to get dropped off there so I'm going to make sure I get dropped off on the main road to people around and then walk into the venue basically we've run up to it I was feeling anxious and nervous I didn't know what to expect even though RJ told us what to expect it could go this way or that way being good way or the bad way but I always went the good way but yeah we've run up to it prior to it it was a couple of sleepless nights I don't think also he's watched me on podcasts did you see him? it was your first ones it was after the Parmarama he's been around he's fucking TV, papers, news positive, negative he is everywhere so that's the thing as well see when you kept seeing him did that flash back a lot of memories because it was everywhere at one point on the news and even more so now see when you're seeing his face is it trigger? at the time it did especially the Parmarama program and seeing the bloke opened that car door the young photograph that's the picture I have I'm telling you the 21 year old Kevin is what I see we're both 56 both for 21 but when I look at Kevin I don't see the 56 year old Kevin I see the 21 year old Kevin and it sounds weird and that's the image it's burned into my eyes but then after the Parmarama program I was physically mentally sick I had stomach I had to go toilet and everything it was just like everything watered out of me and that's when it all kicked off again but after that I actually googled Kevin Lane and you popped up and it was like a podcast and I watched a bit where he was talking about what he'd done to me I don't know if you play it back but just the emotion I could look into his eyes on that screen I think he's sorry I could see remorse then and that's when I started thinking well hold on I'm starting to go back back to the dark days now I need to prevent this but this was in 2015 and it took me a number of years to actually in the case of I'm bringing restorative justice tomorrow I sat down I thought about it I risk assessed it I looked at it I did a lot of research into restorative justice and looked at a load of there is a couple of podcasts out there about restorative justice but not this way it was more the meeting basically but not the after the meeting so I watched a load of them and I took the decision to contact victim support and go down the route because that's your channel in unless you contact a charity called why me charity restorative justice and they'll sort it all out for you but I went through victim support and went through that and that's how we got through with Martin and Martin was absolutely amazing gentlemen the whole process it's so easy to understand and it helps with his voice as well so gentle and calm melodic maybe and what I found was he wasn't trying not to arrange a meeting but it was a case of are you sure you want to do this are you sure and he was explaining what it could have how it could go good or bad as he's seen but we went the good way because obviously he was doing a lot of appeals he was still on the news because I was away from it you must have been looking to find out when he was getting out at the time years ago that's why I got the job to move around the country that's why I didn't establish myself in a town longer in a year basically so I would work on a project for a year and then move on to another project so it was no traceability the friends that I made on that project for that year I disassociated on the next project in case they got questioned did you have will clearly working here where is he working so I disassociated myself so they don't know where I'm working so that's how I went on and on but I never used to watch the news for about 20 years and it didn't dawn on me it was just that evening in that hotel flicking through the channels that was the time I saw Kevin in the boat since the trial really what were you thinking of seeing Will for the first time it wasn't until I heard some of the facts about what really happened there it was a realisation of oh my god when I first met him I thought okay he doesn't in my head he was quite a little bit stockier then young bloke like me not an older person looking like he's had a bit of a hard life and I thought my god I couldn't envisage me doing that to him now certainly that was the first thing and I thought behind me he looks like he looks worried he looks like he's he looks nervous and he definitely looks like he's had a bit of a hard time to say the least and there was more let's wait and see where this goes I don't know what he's going to say to open his mouth is he going to absolutely just give it to me which I've got to sit there and take it respectfully just sit there and shut my mouth and let him say what he wants to say to me give it to me wherever you want to say you can just give it to me and if it helps him then so I had many thoughts going through my mind it was really dark and dingy it wasn't like any other it was in a proper whole church hall Mormons was it not Mormons use it and nothing about that but it was cold dark up and all big drapey curtains dark curtains and you know when you get a cold room they've been used for bleeding mumps or whatever maybe a week or so but you know it gets used for an hour or two once a week in the evening I don't know but it was like that so that is doom and gloom I thought it could have had a warmer place to make it settle in more not like a dungeon type but you agree sort of like an old castle dungeon type feeling the surroundings were too very good it wasn't clinically sterile I don't know it all and I had that feeling I thought I could have picked on my better than this and then obviously I was in one room we was in another we was brought into the room I had to wait for him to come in I had to sit down and we seated in a certain position they put the position the chairs around so it was I think the surroundings would have made it more friendlier will warmer friendlier types of more if you're sitting down like if you're hosting in a city like you've got over in a house or up there and that um more cozy more relaxed not freezing in here my god like death is cold isn't it and so that's the type of all feeling I had of god this ain't good and then then he's getting upset because of I remember when I didn't see my children for years in prison when I came home and my ex was acting in a manner that I considered just absolutely atrocious and stopped me seeing my son for the same reasons and I had a time when I just absolutely just broke I don't mind telling that I could do strip boxes for a long period of time naked shivering all sorts wrapped up bent up you name it all that never broke me at all just what you bastard I'll have you next time but seeing Will going for what he did and letting him come out of himself I had that for not seeing my sons and I see that in in Will and they made me think about myself how I had I became a broken shell and made me think about how I fell when I didn't see my son and then see my sons in prison it made me have a bit more understanding of how he felt the pain that I had caused him so restorative justice really does work I'm telling you it works it's it's it definitely works and I champion it really do champion it cause you used to have something here how was it when all those years of misery you went through all the torture all the pain for then care to say sorry it was like a pressure relief valve going off inside my head and basically it was just it was just nice to hear you know from from Kevin he's sorry and he got it wrong that was enough for me and I thought I don't hold grudges I don't want to be well alright fair enough thank you goodbye I want to build a relationship with Kevin become friends do things together did you trust him when he says that I do yeah I get in the car with him and that's a big he with me I'll bet he found me up if he had a bit of egg hopefully that's gonna open doors what sort of what do you do I'm I work for a mechanical electrical contract operations and compliance manager it's just for anybody watching maybe give you a job or give you a helping hand cause you fucking deserve it you deserve it man by all means I've interviewed so many brave people people who's been human traffic but the odd deal you went through destroying your life being homeless trying to take your own life you deserve a break mate and hopefully this is the moment it does Kevin like I said he's a good guy sitting here this is embarrassing for some men to admit that they've put other people's through misery and pain that's how I've got nothing but respect for yourself even if you're here for him to sit here and admit that he's sorry and be brave enough to say man he's tortured and kidnapped that guy that's fucking nuts I had him for hours I had him for hours and don't believe me he weren't no joyride he might have been in the back he got beaten when he was in the back and he continually got beaten that was a terrible ordeal regardless of running them over the ordeal didn't stop when he got put back in the motor he got hit with that plaster a lot and I say that angry at myself in terms of I want people to understand there's no life experience what he went through it was full on for the full amount of time in that motor under it and in the canal so believe me when he talks to you about how it impacts on his life and the nightmares he's had and everything else he bloody means it I'm not obviously sticking up for Kevin justifying what he's done but he genuinely thought that you'd held a knife to a woman and a baby you know what I mean that is an old goal so I can understand why he's done it but then obviously when he finds out it was the wrong person can you understand what he'd done what he'd done as well even though it was wrong it was the wrong person at the time I didn't understand but now speaking to Kevin and talking and watching the podcasts not just yours but other podcasts and seeing the build up and getting to understand through podcasts that he got it wrong that's why I'm talking to him because I know he got it wrong and we have hopefully one day we will we will get over it yeah but I'm over it basically I'm not over over it the nightmares are still there the flashbacks are still there something that will never get over I've been diagnosed with PTSD at a severe level my score was 84 when I went in by the time I finished therapy I dropped down to 13 so the therapy worked and part of that therapy was Kevin what was it like saying sorry after you realise what you've done what you've put them through destroyed his life because even though you've done a life sentence you've given a life sentence also yeah I had no problem in apologising to him I couldn't wait to get it out of my mouth so he could understand that I genuinely meant it James it weren't just words and I believe that Will felt that in me seeing me say I'm so sorry for what I've done to you I'm no A-list actor and which is why I do so well on the TV bits and pieces I do because I'm just myself and being yourself is transparent and I think Will thought that I was transparent being truthful to him so sorry to him there's a bit of I suppose I had 20 years to think about some things at the time I used to still think I felt I was justified to it but then I thought I didn't know what I'd done to him in terms of ruined his life so when I found out I ruined his life God I didn't feel like I wanted to call into a hole I felt like I wanted him to see the sorrow in me in terms of I generally felt like I don't want to put my arms around him they come here listening they ain't gonna happen to you again not why I'm on this planet um yeah just it's so difficult to sort of explain what I felt I was sitting there just numb just absolutely numb in terms of I couldn't think about anything else but I was tuned into his words as if I've been hypnotized I was in my mind wasn't flitting off here and there I was just sitting there just listening to everything he said everything and it was just going in there and then for some time after I didn't sleep that night I had a very late night sleep laying in the bed staring at the ceiling thinking about it he he can't I just can't walk away from something like that when you've met someone seeing what you've done to him in a manner he was when I met him it was um it was difficult and I don't give two fucks about if I vote someone if they deserve it I don't I'm sorry to say I don't am I a psychopath no I'm not a psychopath but I can commit an accident on people I'm feeling nothing about it if I think they've done something terrible I haven't done that for many years but I don't think about other things I've done to people because I just don't care if they deserved it but I think about him all the time and one other person what would you say to him now after realizing everything you've put him through obviously words was it going to rectify everything that you've been through in your life was it going to change much possibly not will it give you closer and you kick on and create a better life for yourself again definitely but what would you say it will after everything you've put him through and coming face to face and having the balls to sit and meet you and kind of putting things right even though you had every chance never to see your face again one brave dude one brave person sitting there and you know what will you know for all of this we're no friends aren't we it's amazing how after what I've done to him and you can get on with anybody if they're good they've got goodness in their heart so as rough a character as I am I don't see myself by the way I don't see that people see me as you see me but I do believe people do see me like that because people say it but will seize the goodness in me as do multiple other people that I meet whether it's in the petrol station around the corner and the machines are broken they're on black lap behind the counter they said I'll get you some milk make you out of the back don't worry about that and they're just chatting away to him he goes I know you don't I he might have seen me and he said bloody hell but for my interactions when I went into the shop doesn't show ultimate violence towards that person they see always a bit of a character he cares himself well he's really friendly and really nice I'd say that obviously anybody could say that but I know that's how people receive me across the board so will seize me like that irrespective of what I did to him and I said to him should we go and get started on the way after do you want to go and have a pint yeah he's going to have a pint we're going to go and have a few pints but you know I'm going to have to do it a bit if he bought massive later than an old man I know if I don't miss a note hey come a samurai what would you say to Kev obviously being sitting here today then try to put things right and show people how it should be done this is the way men should handle things admitting their faults admitting their guilt then it can't be easy for Kev so I've got nothing but respect from the beer and actually take it on the chin to admit what he's actually went through but for you and just sitting here and going through it all again I don't know it would bring back a lot of emotion but what would you say to Kev you've well I'm thanking for his time and basically not for what they're coming through for me with my closure because he could have turned around and said no I don't want to meet you but I feel I've benefited from meeting him with regards and I've said to Kev I just want to become friends I want to put what behind us and just move forward when we meet we don't talk about the kidnapping we talk about other things don't we yeah we have a laugh and joke well general life stuff my personal life is life that's past we both know it was wrong at the end of the day we've never discussed it we've never discussed it I've only just realised that only when you've told me things about but never what I've actually done to him as we've discussed here I've only thought about that until now why do you think that as does that shame and badness no I don't because we're getting to calm start chatting away I don't think it's something we've had without our restorative justice minute we've said what we wanted to say and as far as I was concerned I drew a line in the sand that day and I don't want to go beyond that line sort of backwards from that line I just want to keep moving forward and doing things like this getting the word out about restorative justice how it can help victims not just victims but perpetrators as well yeah definitely because there will be people out there probably watching this in a couple of weeks time two, three months maybe years time thinking I need to do this I need to contact restorative justice it could swing both ways that's changing the game imagine an old man or an old lady an old man or a young girl and think about what their someone's actions might have done if you look at what it did to you in varying degrees just imagine that will what people have got no idea about what their actions may have done and would you like that done to your sister your mother your brother your grandad your aunt your cousin whoever and we can't justify our actions we can't deflect it and blame other people which is what I'm trying to seem to do today but I'm guilty of my actions that's a fact and that changed his life dramatically so get your asses up to restorative justice if you can it may just do you the world of good as well whether you guys go forward for the future whether Kevin will go with the plans the ambassador the restorative justice well yeah I mean the film talks with the YME charity in London restorative justice looking at the ambassador side of things but as I mentioned it's not just a case of me it's like Kevin follows me with my story it's not just me telling my story I want Kevin to stand next to me with my story and I feel just getting the word out too because when you look when you look at all recently all the knife crimes all the knife crimes all these kids it's in prison now for a silly act of mad Kevin's still been in prison now for killing yourself the wrong information I believe this will be on this is like a TED talk as well I believe you should be on stage talking about the misery of the torment you've caused Kevin but then the misery and torment you've had to go through and then coming back to it and then sorting your differences apologetic and showing okay listen but that's unbelievable like today's as one of the best conversations that I've had you can't turn the clock back and withdraw the actions but in my eyes I wanted to I wanted to hear him say sorry and once I heard that and when you use the remorse he's had remorse that was enough for me every tick in my box from therapy was done that day and it is such it is I can't stress how much relief it is to actually go through this process and see the outcome it might not benefit everybody depending on what the crime was either innocent or guilty but I do I do feel there is a benefit of actually sitting in front of the person who hurt you I feel the same way I mean you might have to have an offender sitting there again to victim and they might not be the victim still okay but if they've got something inside them they can be heavily entrenched in their views and still say well they still they still deserve it or whatever they deserve whatever I don't give a monkey to the rest of it but if they're that cold and callous and then they need help but I think they've been pretty much 90% of the criminals or people have got offenders that have committed a crime do have compassion and do have love in their heart and I think that there's going to be something through that meeting that will touch base with them and I think it can own and it is powerful isn't it do you know if we were having this interview just me and you and I would be sat here in tears because I could never talk about what happened to me without emotionally filling up and bursting into tears there's certain things I talk about the suicide when I attempt to take my life I do get emotional throughout because it was one of the stupidest things I'd ever ever gone through my little head that night I don't know why I was thinking why I've done that but someone said to me you woke up, you're still here and I do believe there's a reason why I survived that night why I survived the attempted suicide it could be the reason in getting the word out you can change leaves so in terms of what we do discuss did I discuss you, do we have a laugh about the old-style committal with my best mate coming in dressed in different show this is something the only conversation we've had about it is I said to him how's Marcus my best mate Marcus he's right, don't have his photograph taken don't even mention my name and all the rest of it, that's what I do alright and he asked how Marcus would football Marcus would die if he knew your name he had the statement and all the rest of it when he's been arrested Marcus and the mayor blah blah blah so my best mate he come the call he got bowed because of the witness descriptions and it didn't match him too much he got bowed after four months right he said you're leaving me he's walked through the court the first day he says no and we laughed about this didn't we Will so this is the point we're making we're laughing about something that happened in the trial the door's opening in the magistrate's court he's come through and a black and white stripy top white trousers like a burglar alright I've looked at him, he's got his hair just business and I'm trying not to laugh he was like you don't dress like that the next day he's coming like Mr. T he'd been around my mate Blossom's house he had a couple of safes, lots of keeps of money and Blossom's house years ago, forgot my own safes he had rings on every finger, chains all chains round here, bracelets and a lot dressed like Mr. T the third day he came in dressed a bit all his hair brushed a different way like a casual he got a little guilty because he didn't match the descriptions and the judge thanked him for keeping his entertain with his dress sense we can't say that Mr. LeMair matches the descriptions I thought you couldn't say he matches anyone's descriptions right now we laughed about that didn't we I mean everyone was laughing when he came in the court thinking what's he going to come in like tomorrow but he got them bleeding got them not guilty and he's quite rightly so because he weren't there when I did it however, we laugh about that type of stuff and that's the only conversation we have had in terms of the trial process and what he went through in terms of he's putting through we turn up drunk and they put I thought we had a mistrial but it got put off didn't it it got put off because of me it was me, I stopped the process for two days that's how long it took me to get in the dark two days and I was forcibly under police guard that day like no drink, no drugs I did take drugs because they couldn't stop me from doing that so how you feeling after today I feel great I was as I said at the start of the interview anxious, nervous, I feel more relaxed now it's not as bad as what I thought it was going to be you're in good hands it's obviously easier to say it's okay that's not but obviously you've came here, you've done what you've had to do and I believe this will open doors for anybody watching though that's maybe went through a life of trauma and pain and never think they can get out what advice would you have for them I'll just get in touch with me charities restorative justice charities if you haven't got one local to you then victim support, contact them start the process, start the conversation it is a long process but at the end of the day I would suggest it because it's done me wonders there's probably people sat at home now right in this moment in time who's had something really bad done to them and they've just bottled it up and still bottling it up to get out of their contact the why me charities or the victim support the help and support life changing for you was it moving forward after it's weird I say to people why did you meet him what's all that if you wake up with a hangover what would you do you take a paracetamol to get rid of the pain go on just sitting here in front of Kevin in the car with him having coffee with him is my therapy is my drug is my pain relief how are you feeling after today kev I love seeing Will because it's nice for me to see him and see him laughing and joking and taking the piss out of me be fair he does, don't worry about that it's nice because we're just a club but it's nice to be able to think God, think all these years later it's amazing how things can turn out amazing yeah it's nice it's just peaceful yeah bloody god don't let this show people what can happen what you can do it'd be really worth people reaching out and making the first steps for themselves because they are bottling up like Will says and that's not good so I've seen the changes in Will he's appeared and getting rid of the beard cheeky little bastard yeah but that's good he's got his humor back I'm a cheeky little bastard but it's nice to see someone have that character of strength to start being themselves and get rid of that baggage they've been carrying around or park a carp and a carp I can leave it there and get out and walk you know walking a better life so I thoroughly recommend do you think this is a clean slate for you to then kick on and have a positive life I'm actually moving I'm trying to rebuild my life it's not a I've lost 30 years but I'm trying what time I've got left I want to enjoy it I couldn't enjoy it 3-4 years ago amazing isn't it I just had this fear he was going to come and get me but to stop that restorative justice I'm now moving on my life I'm loving life it's totally different I'm going to try and rebuild my relationship with my daughter my sisters and family it's going to take time I hope they understand with watching this they'll see a different why I've been elusive, why I don't speak to them why I don't text them, why I don't contact them it might help them understand a little and that's what these things are for is to get them understanding of the whole situation where Kev's leaf went, the way your leaf went nobody wins I wrote about the kidnapping in my book but when I wrote the book I wrote it in 2004 I wrote it about as if he deserved it so I've got a new book coming out and I'm writing it in a moment and part of that will be Will the transformation of what I did to such it'll be about my life coming home me and Will the problems I've had with people when I've been released from prison girlfriends abusing my position as a convicted contract killer and using the police heavily against me claiming all sorts of madness and other people I'm going to lambast but I'm going to proper give it to people in my next book Will, I'm going to set it out for the better and Will can have a piece in that I'm going to ask him to write he didn't know this by the way I'm going to ask him to write a little piece about something so moving forward it's been a big positive in my life and I'm lucky to have him as a friend let's have it right could have told me to fuck my off I consider myself very lucky in terms of not say fortunate but respectfully that the man's seen he's got compassion in his heart to forgive me for what I did to him well, the Norwegians are very good at it look at what the students have got killed it'd be something it's not just about forgiving the people of what they've done to you which he's shown that as well so people should reflect on that listen lads for coming on a day and sitting face to face with each other it's been unbelievable, great conversation I believe this will change lives and other people can maybe sort out their differences over 10, 20, 50 years ago whatever it is used to have came at the forefront you've been men about it very brave about it including yourself Will you like to finish up on anything else lads? yes it's something we do this every time we see pleasure cheers mate, would you like to finish up on anything else? again just get involved if you're feeling down lonely unsure of what to do contact by me and start the process I did well done lads, listen nothing but the love and support for the future, I wish you the best cheers