 No sé, a mí me... Yo también voy a referir a la memoria de antifranquismo y los estragos contra la homofobia. Y tenemos hoy con nosotros dos personas que ya se han visto en el film. Creo que muchos de ustedes ya lo saben. Tenemos Ricardo Valentí Gutiérrez, quien es el presidente de la asociación romana de Gracia. Y su nombre es Romanipis. Él es un activista romano y un defender y historián de la ciudad de Roma, y un experto en Samodalipen. Él va a compartir con nosotros muchos temas que tenemos que hacer con lo que hemos visto en el film. Él empezó como activista a la edad de 27, viajando a Europa. No sé si él todavía hace eso. Con el objetivo de ver la historia y la memoria de las personas romanas, y de no luchar contra la homofobia. Muchas gracias, Ricardo, por estar aquí hoy con nosotros. También tenemos con nosotros Paqui Perona Cortés. Ella es una amiga de mí. Hemos sido amigos por unos años. Y ella se ha convertido en un benchmark en la ciudad de Mina. En el mismo modo, Ricardo ha convertido en un benchmark en su ciudad de Gracia. Paqui es la fundadora de la glasura romana y la fundación Sur, y ella es parte de la Federación de las asociaciones de Roma de Catalonia. Y a través de la fundación Sur, ella trabaja en el empate de las mujeres romanas y su acceso al mercado laboral. Ella es una mujer romana, una feminista, que está leyendo este feminismo de Roma. Y también es importante para esta discusión de tener esto como una de las cuestiones importantes. Ella fue co-creator de esta documentaria. Y ella también ha sido co-creator de esta documentaria. Y tenemos a Eva Grace, que también participó en su creación. Y ella explica la historia de una mujer de la ciudad de la Mina en Barcelona, que se conoce de la historia de su familia. En la audiencia, también tenemos a otras personas que participaron en esta documentaria, Rafi, por ejemplo. Y nos invito a participar. También tenemos a Ricas, un padre grandioso aquí. Y ahora les daré la flora. Así que puedes compartir tus experiencias con nosotros y luego opens la flora para la discusión. Good afternoon, thank you very much for being here today. First of all, I would like to say thank you because in my neighborhood in Gracia, Barcelona, 1986, we created the first or maybe the second Roma association, the first one was in the Mina neighborhood. And I would like to thank the members who established it in the 80s and my grandfather, Frédéric, Valentí, and my uncle, U.S., they started with the activism in Gracia. And yesterday was November the 20th. And this is an important date because it's been 48 years since Franco died, the detector. However, fascism is still alive in Europe and Spain is a cradle of fascism. And in Spain we see fascism and neo-Nazis salutes. And this documentary is from 2014. It's ten years old, almost ten years old. But what was happening back then is still happening today. We've heard about the situation in Italy, in France, in Bosnia this morning. And yesterday in 1945, the first trial of the Nuremberg trials took place. And many fascists were tried. But do you know how many Roma people were in those trials? Do you know how many witnesses, Roma witnesses were in the Nuremberg trials? None. And how many were compensated after the Second World War? None of them received any kind of compensation. Raymond Gremer, the Roma Frenchman who was on the documentary, said, we weren't able to speak until the 80s. And the Samudari pen, this forgotten holocaust, was genocide because a holocaust is when you come in and you kill everybody. But genocide means coming in here and killing a certain group of people. And that's what happened with the Roma people. And this film was shot in Poland to commemorate the Second of August. But first, we need to understand the Romani resistance of May 16th of 1944. And in Bickenhau, the concentration camp, the SS wanted to kill the Roma people. And in Sri Lanka a few years before the survivors were able to leave. And in 1944 they were warned on May 16th and that's how they were able to survive. But then on August 2nd they were all killed because nobody warned them. And we created this documentary film to go to Poland to be able to show the reality of the genocide in the Second World War of the Roma people. Because very often we hear that the white people, we call them white people, we call them payos in Spanish, you know how you have many of them who write about our people, about the Roma people. And they say that half a million Roma people were killed. But there were many, many more, 80 to 90% of all the Roma population in Europe. And many of them were Jehovah's Witnesses or disabilities. And many say that it was just have a million Roma people, but it was a much, much, much higher figure. And if you have any questions about this film that you have just seen or anything else will be available to answer any of your questions. And I am very happy to see you all here today. Thank you. Good afternoon. First of all, I'd like to say thank you for giving us the chance to speak up with regard to such an important topic today. Ricardo shared this trip with us and he also cooperated in the creation of the film. And you may wonder why Roma Feminist Organization decides to create a film regarding the historic memory of the European Roma when here in Catalonia and in Spain we had a totally different story. Well, the thing is, first of all, we believe that we cannot be creating feminism and we cannot do a social analysis without first understanding what has been constructed since colonialism and it's all based on a wide western point of view and we believe that it's very important for minorities to start constructing and discussing our own history because our history has been based on what the others think about us, not based on what we think about ourselves. Our history has been written by others and the feminism of white women, the homogeneous feminism, shows us that this type of feminism is also based on whiteness and as Roma women and as women who belong to a minority, we don't feel represented by that type of movement so we thought that we had to start creating our own story and our story goes back to our history. You cannot start creating a story based on what others think about us. So we thought and we still think that the first step was to create a new story deconstructing the story that has been created about us based on stigma and prejudice and we believe that this story shouldn't only... Oh, well, here we have... Here we have Gabriel. He's arrived at last. So as I was saying, sorry, I just lost my train of thought. Just seeing Gabriel arrive. So as I was saying, our feminism couldn't be based on the white, homogeneous feminism. We wanted to explain our association movement, that is also contaminated by colonialism and by the relocation that has taken place during 600 years and we need to review our activist movements and that was our goal and that was our position as an association of Roma women. For many decades, politically and socially, it wasn't well considered to speak about historic memory but those of us who have been activists for a long time, when we used to refer to this memory, they would tell us that we should just move forward and forget about the past as if our vulnerability just was something we were to blame of but there was this history that had led us to be where we are today with the impact that it has had on the Roma people, all the discrimination that there is against the Roma people and this absence of culture and this absence of memory is not a coincidence. It has been done on purpose, there has been a reduction of Roma history because all projects that have to do with the Roma people have never taken into account our history or our culture or our memory. There are many different European frameworks and national frameworks from different places and policies from here and from there. All the policies are inclusion policies that have as a goal the same purpose of assimilation that started 600 years ago because if they want to promote culture and history and memory then you are empowering the identity of that people but politically that's of no interest. Is this direct racism well maybe it's indirect racism or micro racism. We should start analysing how the word Roma in fact the word gypsy has been created as a link to crime as a social group that has no that's not an ethnic group in fact we have no rights we have no ethnic rights we have rights as Spanish citizens as Catalan citizens and they tell us that we should have enough with just promoting the Romani language or our music in our neighbourhoods but there is no strong promotion of recognizing as an ethnic group and of helping us recover everything we've lost for many many years. When we think about certain laws that refer to criminals we think of Franco but that law comes from before Franco and it's a law that was the vacancy law to control the Roma people and no party no party from the left or from the right or from the centre has protected the Roma people and there was this vacancy law that stated that the Roma people should be put under control and this doesn't come from Franco but before this started in 1492 with the discovery of America with the clear objective the dehumanization of the non white Europeans with this capitalist need that exploded in the Second World War and reached Spain we shouldn't be telling all these stories separately the history of Germany, the history of Spain or other countries we are talking about a story of racism that exploded in the 20th century but that has started many centuries before that because in the 20th century most European countries had legal instruments already in the 19th century in fact to control ethnically the Roma populations in the 19th and 20th century there were many policies in European countries and this was an ethnic and racist criminalization of the Gypsy peoples and their customs and I am not an expert in law but those laws were similar to the regulations of the SS the methods were the same and in other countries such as France or Germany arresting Roma people has always been considered as a legal practice for the police here in Spain until 1992 it was legal and we were already in democracy and in 1802 France created laws to control the Roma people and in 1810 in Great Britain they created also a vacancy law and focusing on all the jobs that were contracted by the Roma people so the public visibility of the Roma people was always a link to sanctions that were related to the jobs and ways of life this is no coincidence and it would be important to reveal documents and the files of the Spanish police of the guardia civil to see what was their relationship with all these European waves of discrimination this should be done when we listen to our elders as we have seen in the Samudari pen film the young people here in Spain are saying there was repression here in Spain because my grandfather has told me about it that's why we created the SATA documentary because we understood the distortion existing in Europe regarding the history of the Roma people and in Europe they were told that here the Roma people in Spain had no problems and we decided to start creating this memory we were one of the first Roma associations to create this memory and to become aware of the situation and then we created this documentary film after the experience we had in Auschwitz and the idea was to recover the history of the Franco period and of the civil war because there were no Roma people surviving the civil war because the life expectancy of the Roma people in Spain is much lower than the native people in Spain and for decades it was impossible to discuss these topics and our elders didn't want to explain the past that they had lived a past full of offenses of humiliation and of discrimination we didn't find any elders who would want to speak about the Franco period and today we are in the Modelo prison this is a strategic site Gabriel will tell us more about it later on something else that's worth highlighting the importance of protecting our culture by our elders protecting our identity this is a Roma strategy when the Roma people explain what used to happen to them when the police would stop them on the road they would say the police were really bad to them but they don't explain all the details it's difficult to get those details why? because some people that has been struggling for a thousand years to protect itself protect its culture and its identity and the way to do that is just telling the positive things and hide the negative things forget about the negative things this is a strategy and the opportunity we had with this film was to do a lot of research among the Roma people and the empowerment of the protagonists of Sada and it showed how our youth by looking into their own history and memory can position themselves and how she was able to strengthen her identity and the administration thought that this was a negative type of project that wasn't going to create anything positive for our identities was in fact something that helped empower our young people and they felt stronger in society and I believe that this is one of the most positive things about this documentary film on Sada who had difficulties finishing secondary education and ended up studying further and in this film when they referred to the police persecutions the older women in the minna neighborhood in Barcelona would say how they would be selling their products at a square in the Borne area and how the police would come and would take them to the police station and they would razor off their hair and they would beat them and they would put them all together in a cell naked and they would throw cold water at them in their houses and they would give the men's scissors to cut the hair of the women there was one woman who told me how they were taken to a mountain here in Monterey and they were left their naked and they were beaten and they cut their hair off and then they had to go back to the city naked and still closed and these stories they do tell there are people in a cafe but they don't want to tell these stories in front of a camera and after Sara we created a theater play in the minna neighborhood and 25 young people would tell the story and the story of the Roma people and it was present also at the theater a Greek event and I would also like to explain our story living in shanty towns and my family would come from the south of Spain and they lived in standard houses but when they came here to Barcelona to work they had to live in shanty towns together with migrants from other parts of Spain who had come here to Catalonia to work and then they are treated in a very respective way different from how other migrants were treated and my mother would tell me that she was always very fashionable when she lived in the south of Spain and when she arrived in Catalonia and she went to the Cantabota area she understood that she had lost her social class she wasn't any longer a Roma woman with money but just a Roma woman what do I mean by that in 2010 we start recovering the historic memory of the Roma shanty towns and there is this need to refer to these migrant shanty towns however there weren't only Roma people living in these shanty towns but also white migrants from other parts of Spain and then when referring to the historic memory they would only refer to the white population so in short the perspective is very important we have been abandoned by the institutions but we do need the support of the institutions to be able to recover this memory and the project should be adapted to us and not the opposite instead of us having to adapt to the political needs of each moment in time and the memory projects cannot have the same indicators as the rest of social inclusion projects we need long term qualitative data we need to raise awareness about our own needs and we need the support and the subsidies from a Roma perspective and we are very much interested in this democratic memory but today as a Roma woman I am a 21st century and I am 54 years old for me it is much more important I knew you were 54, I know anyway it is much more important for us to rescue what still is alive what's still alive that's our cultural heritage because our cultural heritage has been taken away from us our music, our art and this is never going to be included within the political agenda but it needs to be included because here we are referring to territorial interests let's be realistic about it and this has to be done now because if not it's just going to be too late and we are polarized in the territory they are forcing us to position ourselves but this is our memory and they cannot be forcing us to do this the Roma people people from the whole world if I have to tell the story of the Roma music of Flamenco and its importance in Catalonia I have to refer to the rest of the Iberian Peninsula let's be realistic about this because for over 600 years we've been moving around we cannot be applying the perspective of the territory to recover our memory and in Catalonia the problem with the subsidies is that they have to be spent here and not somewhere else but we are a nomad community as the freedom to spend it as we need and we need to deconstruct the paradigm of the Roma people how can we deconstruct the term gypsy and to construct it from the perspective of the positive Roman sorry, Roma history we need to base it on the knowledge on the actual knowledge of the Roma people and how it should be understood from inside out and acknowledgement to acknowledge and to know the other accepting the other with its differences and this hasn't been done yet now in Catalonia nor in Spain there is this a lack of knowledge of the territory of the Roma people and this will continue to lead to the creation of stereotypes and prejudice because there is this negative image of the Roma community that is linked to crime and this is worsen by the media by the literature we need to do something about this and repair repair we need to get back what was taken away from us since 1492 because this has impacted negatively our culture and our history reparation that is key, thank you Bueno muchas gracias Paquín Thank you so much Paquín, Ricardo I believe that both of you have discussed key items that are good ground work to talk about memories and thank you very much for having discussed the patterns of how memories and history of the Roma and Sinti populations you want to come to our square that is devoted to the Roma people and paint something there and we can have their figures of our music you are welcome of course, that's why we're here to be able to share our story and to claim our history and if you want to help us that's wonderful however, we should start renovating this chapel and it is time now for reparation and to take back everything that has been taken away from us and our language and our music because the flamenco music belongs to us and today we have Rosalia and she is supposed to be singing flamenco and then you have another band from Cornelacol Stoppa doing Catalan Rumba and there are the groups like Sabores de Gracia who have never received any awards so our history has been stolen from us I am very tough, I know but at my age I think it's worth being straightforward as I am being now and if you have any questions or remarks I'll be very happy to help you I am a historian and we're historians not because of any university degree but because of our knowledge of the Roma people I remember as a little child how I used to already live that activism in favor of the history and culture of the Roma people we'll be very happy we'll give you all the details well thank you very much now we will open up the floor to questions and remarks I don't know whether there are any questions or remarks about the film and these contributions from the panelists we've been going forth in history with no straightforward timeline but we have gone through history and now the floor is yours good evening it's difficult to make just one remark after everything that we have heard today I've been hearing different subtleties no one sees regarding the dignity of the Roma people and I do respect their culture it is true however that from the point of view of anarcho-sindicalism I am against the state and the state is the opressum and we could also refer to the class struggle particularly when referring to those slums and shanty towns that were affecting a large part of society not just the Roma population and what has happened at the parliament what you have referred to Gabriel is in fact very unfortunate and I was just asking for information and I was wasn't receiving any nice replies and I am working with young people in the area of deportation and the permission of fascism that is currently quite heated topic unfortunately and as for the chapel and the paintings I am sorry for everything that has happened and you have exposed here a reality that is often unknown by those who are not members of the Roma community and I will buy the book but I have to say that the payos, i.e. the whiteies also can work together with the Roma people and with regard to the figure of Roma victims in the Second World War it's between 500,000 and 3,000,000 people and I have contributed to the film and there may be some technical aspects that are not perfect in terms of lighting but the most important thing is the essence and spirit of this film that is referring to the freedom of this minority group and Ricardo, I do believe that there are many people who are with you, really for supporting you it's true that whiteies want to be knowing more about us but what's important and you have been speaking to me today and you and Enrique Carriga who is a friend of mine every time you've wanted to know something about the Roma people we've always been there for you and before I asked how many Roma were witnesses at the Nuremberg trials everybody says that it's the manhousel photographer who helped make those manhousel Nuremberg trials true, but it was thanks to the Cortés Sansan Boy brothers who were Roma and took care of the negatives of those photos this is information that we have and that we have shared with you and with Enrique Carriga you have always come to us and we've always worked as a network to fight against fascism and against the discrimination of the Roma people and other minorities of course we cannot be doing this by ourselves the more allies we have the better wherever these allies come from and I would like to thank Michael because they did give us their support with the film in fact we even were able to find out about Fraskita a Roma woman who was at the Auschwitz camp and when I'm giving presentations I can use this information that came from a non-Roma association there is this documentation regarding this a Roman Roma woman and Neus Katala did say that there was a Roma woman with them in the concentration camp all in all this is a joint effort and a joint struggle I'm Ricardo de Ogregarra architect since 1996 Mr. Gabriel Gómez and Salvador Tarragot he said my professor started their struggle to recover this building and I would like to congratulate you for this meeting today and I'd like to mention a couple of things firstly, that it is thanks to this struggle of over 20 years that we can be hearing these children's voices in the yard because in the year 1996 6 were regarding the possibilities that this building offered and we are now talking about sustainable architecture sorry I am mixing many topics here but what I am trying to say that we believe that it's very important to improve the world we live in and we have to make the most of these meetings to have more people help us so that we can reconstruct this Gypsy Chapel our association is 25 years old in Catalonia and in Spain and it's also present in South America and with Gabriel Gomez two or three years ago we went into the chapel and there was a TV program on the second channel on the Spanish television and we explain how with some scaffolding we and some experts we could restore this chapel we could have art students and architecture students working in this project and last Thursday on November 16 the international day of the world heritage we had the visit of a Bosnian architect and she explained how they worked during the war this means that with just a little support you can create several alliances and therefore as we have today this meeting on November 21 I think we could write a manifesto regarding this chapel because we just need four people experts well when I say four I mean several people scaffolding scaffolding and tools and we can also have the help of construction companies such as Arla or Máfer o Tark so that they can sponsor us and I am sure that they would help us restore this gypsy chapel and the Barcelona city council created the heritage panel to protect our heritage and this is a flag that is over 20 something years old and there are many buildings such as Cancapellanes and Canraventos and Casa Tosquella that are being abandoned and we need to recover them and I welcome you to participate in our association SOS Monuments it's a multi disciplinary association with architects, journalists doctors and it's open to everyone to receive new people who want to help the city and improve the city yes thank you so much slightly over time but let's give five minutes to each of you to wrap up moment to wrap up yes I would like to express my gratitude for having been invited to this conference we can raise our voices here and we can raise our voices elsewhere to claim for our history to defend our history as Marty Luther King said I'm not concerned about the cries of the bad people I'm more concerned about the silence of the good ones of the good people so people like Messi others like Marc Anthony I love Eredio Eredio and he said that he would finish a speech with Dante Ligieri and the Divine Comedy on the bad days if you if you say that you are neutral you will go to hell that means that we really we cannot shut up we need to raise our voices that's basically the summary of that quote I would also like to express my gratitude for having allowed us to speak up here and for having been invited as a gypsy from La Mina District in Barcelona someone born in the sorry, as a Roma person who was born in the Camp de la Bota from the La Mina District when I walked through the doors of this prison former prison I had shivers because every family in the Mina District has had relatives here most of the families not mine in my case but I remember that when this prison was opened up for a visit my brother resting peace and I said let's try and visit it and my relatives told me don't even try why not? I said why can't we go there to just a place where our people have had so many rough times and they said no and we never came and today I broke that curse and I crossed the doors of the Modelo prison but let me finish with a poem from La Papucha who was a Roma poet Papucha means doll in Roman language she was a Polish poet who went through the concentration camps and we will try to translate as well as we can I have brown eyes and you have green eyes but we see the same things we see everything the same but we experience it very differently your people are strong my people are vulnerable because we don't have science nor memory maybe it's better that way because if we Roma had memory we would die in anguish bueno una magada más, muchas gracias la segunda parte de la documentación, Sara es muy contundente porque es como el seguimiento de todo que ha sido discutido aquí en la discusión de panel y en la documentación anterior y ahora les daré la flor a Uriol y Núria Millán López y Núria Millán nos verán en el seminario