 Hello and welcome everyone once again to another Live podcast broadcast of this weekend science. We are here Justin's back Yeah, squint squinty-eyed a little bit Could be clean your glasses man This is this week in science and we are here on a weekly basis to talk about science Stories we like to talk about them think about them think about them with you Have a great time be in together in this science land as usual We may make mistakes errors Things might need troubleshooting there might be technology that needs the fixings Hopefully not but if so then it'll be fixed in post and that'll go out in the podcast Podcast is the edited version. You can subscribe to if you want to get all of the I don't know just make nice and clean version. Otherwise you're in the dirty science with us right now In fact, we've gotten so good in post that we're not even gonna present an actual show today Yes, we are is live live from from Denmark and Portland at the same time Wow So excited we can do So far It's so far away from me Although I don't know like I always think it's 6,000 ish miles, but then like what if we went over the pole? It might not might actually be pretty close. Yeah, Alaska Air Iceland air. That's why you do it Anyway We can use the measurements. However, we want but actually not because Units are important in science. It's standardization man Calibration man. Are you ready to calibrate and get ready to start this show? Well, let's get totally calibrated Yeah, all right Okay, everyone. We are gonna start the show make sure you do the shares the subscribes the likes the all the things get us out on the algorithms hearts loves notifications bloop-dee-bloops and bloody-blahs and science times coming in three two This is Twists This week in science episode number 961 recorded on Wednesday, February 21st 2024 This is possible. Thanks to a virus Hey, everyone. I'm dr. Kiki and tonight on this week in science. We will fill your heads with ADHD bowls and epigandist AI but first this Clamor disclaimer disclaimer the following program is for anyone interested in the world around them the history the future the inner workings of complicated things This is a place for the curious the clever and the ever-restless mind The sanctuary of reason a walled garden of delightful thoughts and ivory tower of Intellectually intrepid thinking from here. You can see it all Above the clouds below the ground everything in between everything beyond Eliminating the unreal to reveal the real the actual the true the verifiable the ultimate mirror of Existence reflected off the unbiased surface of scientific method. It is time once again to talk about Everything that is going on this week in science coming up next I can't get enough. I want to learn discoveries that happen every day of the week There's only one place to go to find the knowledge. I seek science And a good science to you to Justin and everyone out there. Welcome to another episode of this week in science We are back again To talk about Things stuff, you know Whatever oh Justin's leaving science. We're here to talk about science as we are every week oh If you are curious about the world if you want to find a place where we're not just gonna give you the Pat answers and just do whatever it is. We're gonna make you think we're gonna give you a little uncertainty We're gonna give you questions That's what this show is about We want you to like get those brain muscles exercising, you know because you know that they they exercise Not enough in the world But I know this audience has a big brain muscles. I have stories this week about Saturn Well a planet and not a planet. I've got also Bulls and balls propagandist AI and Some brain news. What do you have Justin? Oh What have I got I've got ADHD and have had it me perhaps since the beginning of humanity There is oh Oh a question is it even okay to be publishing Chinese research a A Danish bog body has begun to tell its own story Dead men tell no tales. Yeah for this one. This one's really blabbering on and on and Some German linguistics Professors looked at the the numerous ways in which Americans Communicate getting drunk Communicate getting drunk Like the words used for or I look I can't wait to find out what you mean by communication here How do I let you know communicate? Let's get smashed hammered Whatever that's like this story right there. Okay, it's totally this gig is z-bode What Basically, I'll just do this right now. No We're gonna No, you you taste it. We're gonna basically get to it when you get to it because that'll be fun First I need to tell everybody that This is a weekly podcast. We broadcast live on Facebook twitch and youtube 8 p.m. Pacific time ish And you can subscribe to us there get notifications when we go live You can also find us as a podcast most places podcasts are found again this week in science. We're also known as twis And if this is just a lot of stuff to remember go to our website twis twis.org And you can find our show notes links to stories all sorts of other stuffs links to the podcast episodes But it's time for the science right now. Yeah, you ready? I feel like we need a fifth intro to the show Fifth intro. I feel like we've got too many intro stuff I feel like we're really like 10 minutes into the show. We haven't even started with the show yet I have just enough intro stuff. I think we've got too much intros. We're gonna have to look at it We'll do it in post. We'll fix it in post. Oh my gosh Let me introduce the first story to the show tonight life and saturn Well saturn itself the planet we don't yeah, we don't really think of saturn gas giant with rings as a place that is Hospitable to life, but many researchers through the years have been like the moons The moons of these gas giants perhaps as they're covered in ice and contain these liquidy Mantles center, I don't know on crust ice and crusted Oceans of whatever Maybe there's life under the ice and we crashed the Huygens probe many years ago with the Cassini mission to Saturn Into Titan the largest moon of Saturn and we were we've also taken many looks at it and we're like, oh my gosh Titan it's got a subsurface ocean And look at the surface. It's got like mountainy things and valleys and looks like it's great And oh it's got all sorts of carbon organic molecules on the surface amazing And so from there everybody like you know to speculate it like well There's so much organic material on the surface of Saturn and not Saturn on the surface of Titan Well, then of course Of course, there must be a whole bunch of Organic material under that crust and within its interior oceans Well a new study out of A new study out this last week has Determined that it's very unlikely actually that there's much life Underneath the crust and well wait wait now when you say where it's unlikely that there's much life I mean there could be a little life Could be a little bit. Okay, so I went hmm the surface is covered Covered in organic material and oh, hey these meteors come around occasionally and Crashing the surface and Crashing the surface of wherever they get it heats up and then there's little melty stuff and oh well wouldn't that melty stuff of like Songed down and gotten incorporated into that subsurface ocean and Anyway, they decided that based on the number of impacts that could have happened The amount of organic material that's on the surface and the melt rate ending melting down into the ocean rate Uh, they they decided that The quote the quote is There's about one elephants worth of organic material In the entire volume of that ocean under the uh under titan surface So you're ready to hear first folks. Yeah, there's an elephant on titan. It's not an elephant as well Well one It's the approximately the same mass as a male african elephant You know, there's probably two or three more living in the wall One of the most basic amino acids glycine There's no more than about one male african elephant In that giant subsurface ocean, which is much much larger than the volume of earth's ocean overall And so one elephant in an ocean is not enough to sustain sustain life According to the lead author of this uh paper published in astrobiology Catherine nish out of western university But then okay, but if the idea though is that this organic material got maybe deposited there Yes Then Where'd it come from? Is there just organic material floating around on on comets and asteroids floating around in our solar system Yes, and so the the the issue is The transfer of the carbon from those asteroids And comets to the surface of these icy moons and then into their subsurface oceans So how do you make it all happen in the right way? Uh The team and their research they uh suggest that Is very likely the none of the icy moons around uh jupiter or saturn uh urinus neptune could potentially host life that this This uh possibility of reduced movement of organic matter from the surface into their oceans Isn't sufficient and isn't going to work so um The question is is titan unique In the fact that it's covered in organic material or is it just the outlier in that other icy moons are more likely to have Incorporated the carbon based molecules into their uh oceans I don't know but anyway, they're going to go look at it. They have a dragonfly mission and uh This researcher dr. Nice is involved in the dragonfly mission from nasa Which is going to be going out about 2028 and it'll be studying pre biotic chemistry on the uh on on titan They'll see that go They'll sample they'll see what's happening or let us know what's going on stay tuned. We'll have an update in four years And in five six, how long does it take to get there once they launch? It was like what was it like 13 years? No, something. I don't know It's a long time. Anyway um It'll be a little bit of what a little bit of travel time. Um, the other saturn. I wanted to talk about is a process it's a Deep learning process Call it they the researchers publishing In nature methods this last week. They've they did pre prints last year Uh, the saturn stands for species alignment through unification of rna and proteins It's a deep learning approach and what they're doing is Taking rna sequencing uh, so taking uh these gene expression of rna and also protein sequences of known proteins correlating them with given weights to like what the proteins actually do and their functions and creating a database that Puts together everything so that we finally will not just have like oh look we've got genomes for fish genomes for birds genomes for all these different species, but actually Starting to put the gene to the protein to the function and be able to get that homologous cell function across species and so in doing their The the work that they've published They've shown that um, there are a lot of protein types that are related But have moved on or gene types that have that are related that have moved on to different cell types in different places in Different organisms throughout evolution on the other hand They've also shown that there are lots of proteins that might kind of be different in different species But they have these similar functions and so they're grouped together based on their their function and I I know we've talked about Hormones and other active molecules that Are named differently in different species because they've been studied for different things that then they turn out to have The same function, but they're slightly different in their form But now this is an effort to kind of put all of it together into us into an atlas using RNA protein sequencing and protein function and they've uh come up with What they call macro genes, which is basically like genes literal kind of Might be found different places, but they all kind of are in charge of the same kind of things But the whole uh the emphasis of this is to see really How much changes happened from throughout evolution from species to species to species Very cool This is this is pretty this is pretty exciting because this could be another Uh another way of finding interrelatedness if we somehow missed it in the genome Finding proteins that are doing similar functions might might give a might give a hint Although it should kind of be there in the DNA also There's also some uh, I think we already talked about it on the show Uh, but AI that is Uh starting with function Yeah, and working backwards to create the protein We've uh, we've for a long time been you know, sort of generating proteins and then trying to discover what functions they might have for unique and novel ones But AI is now at the point where it's like you want me to design one Tell me what you want me to want it to do first. I'll make you a protein now reverse engineer the whole thing So for that point, we should be able to pretty uh quickly, I would assume Find the function of proteins Uh across yeah across the animal kingdom. We should be able to see what it interacts with without having to step into the laboratory Yes not take things apart And like right in line with all of this There's also a group of papers that have been uh that have been published in nature communications biology and nature medicine About uh, what's called the all of us program it's run by the us national institute of health in Bethesda, mariland and it is a An effort to create a genome database And is actually trying to improve the way that uh genomes and health Genome data is used to create better health profiles and treatment for all individuals And uh is a huge effort to start to represent underrepresented groups and in this Group of papers that have been published. They have published analyses up to of up to 245,000 genomes that have been gathered by this all of us program And in it there are about 275 million new genetic markers than hadn't been seen and about 150 may be Have some kind of a role in type two diabetes. There are Gaps that are being filled and uh It's it's very it's pretty exciting the program has received about 3.1 billion dollars to date and uh has been working since 2018 to get people to enroll and uh allow their genomes to be sequenced and they had about 100,000 genome genomes at first and They've enrolled about 413,000 anonymized participants and 46 percent are minority racial or ethnic group uk biobank 88 percent are from white people. So uh, this is a huge repository giving uh more information about people from different backgrounds and It could really change the way that we look at of various Snips or single nucleotide polymorphisms or genetic markers and things that haven't been reported before that can really influence the way that Treatments come about and are Yeah, and uk biobank is probably 88 percent white people because it's UK yeah There are other databases that are uh like based in Asia based in africa that are grabbing more of uh distinct populations there But the more more data the better. However, I'm going to skip actually that I think might be one of my new to last stories because Everything that you just said Sounds amazing sounds positive and sounds great Because we're we're living in in a western democracies Exactly. Yeah that are using this genomic information for the health industry The question is Is it okay to publish or or provide this information into an authoritarian government And and more to the point is it okay to publish chinese research? So last week the journal molecular genetics and genomic medicine retracted 18 papers from chinese institutions Because of ethical concerns This is thanks to a bio info magician bio informatician I don't know. I'm a magician. I mean they're not statistics magicians yeah informatician even Info much info magician. I'm going to stick with info magician. Okay, uh eve morrow who has been pointing out studies That failed to get proper free and informed consent when collecting genetic samples is sort of being credited with Getting these 18 papers taken down He's especially been focused on vulnerable populations in china. He raised questions about the now retracted papers back in 2021 and Is saying that this appears to be the largest set of retractions ever over human rights issues So the kind of the the retraction notifications are kind of basic Citing inconsistencies between the consent documentation and of the research reported The authors from china are kind of saying hey, you shouldn't take it down because it's fine But there's also of course different standard of consent taking place apparently The the research that was taken down largely focuses on genetic markers That can be used to identify individuals and distinguish ethnic groups Most of the papers focused on minority groups such as the uger, Tibetan and hui people that are subject to intense surveillance by the chinese security apparatus and May have been pressured into cooperating with researchers The lack of rigorous informed consent Though also applies to the Han chinese majority this came up. I don't know if you recall. I was talking about a study. It was a They didn't have anything to do a genetic Markers or anything like this. No, but we were we were talking about You know paper mills. We were talking about the pay pay to play Yeah, this is earlier. This is this is uh This was a study about elder elder care homes in China and they wanted to see How they could affect health by reducing sodium by using a sodium substitute Oh, I don't know. So this study was conducted on these elder home residents and In the study the researchers suggested that some of their results may have been compromised by uh subjects who had detected the lack of sodium in their food additives and their food and and began adding salt themselves And the problem with that is that's not the kind of thing that's likely to occur If you have informed consent and people know that they're part of a research study So right there in the paper you had the researchers complaining that the subjects had figured out something was wrong with their food right The and and and if you looked through and I tried to go back remember and look through the The consent documents and supposedly so there were people were signing stuff, but What they cited was they had gotten approval from the municipality From the region government governing. Yeah, they were like, oh no the government said it was okay This is what they kind of came back. And so this is sort of perhaps a problem with uh Conducting or publishing science From authoritarian governments is that if it involves humans We we don't have the same Ethical standards taking place that we assume or the guardrails that we assume are in place In western research, I think that there is an interesting question there as well not just uh in with respect to authoritarian governments where there may be Separate ethical standards, but also uh corporations that have ownership of data there We know In recent history as well facebook has used Has used user data To carry out studies about how and publish studies related to how people respond to certain stimuli advertisements, whatever without anybody Saying that it was okay for facebook to use their data or you know without it's not anything that particularly could have physically harmed people but in some cases these were uh you know advertisements It's a propaganda other things that uh may have influenced mental health or uh other aspects of emotional you know emotional health Um Yeah, so I think as we move forward there is a big question about global research and There is I think it's not I don't I think it's the scientific community's responsibility to have a conversation about that and For scientific journals to ensure that there is a standard a minimum standard of consent and ethics and the united states Generally used to have really bad standards. We didn't have consent, right? No, no, no, they could surprise somebody by studying them Oh, yes, bud. You're you're a part of a study those those shocks that you received Uh, they were we we actually did them on purpose Yeah, so you were actually on a very powerful psychedelic. You haven't gone crazy You're a spider We needed to study you weird without you knowing Yeah We've come up with new standards that universities have to follow institutions have to follow. There are You know committees that have to okay research. It's not perfect, but you know, yeah go on so the the other thing that they sort of noted in this is that they these studies have The research teams themselves Have sort of a unusually high proportion of investigators affiliated with police and justice systems Which when you say unusually high that's like almost unheard of in the west to have uh, have The police department investigation department actually being part of research studies And the fact that the a lot of these studies are focused on distinguishing ethnic groups Like what do you mean distinguishing like when we're talking about it when we were talking about it? We're talking about adding more diversity to the profile so that we can study Perhaps differentiation of disease and different In different genetic groups what this seems to be based on is how do you identify because You have an authoritarian government that is also a ethnic majority in China And so if they are concerned About something, you know It looks like the precursor to a genetic based ethnic Uh differentiation within their society and it is But they don't need to be publishing that. I mean they could just be like Why? It's like hey world, you know look at this hand at our science research meanwhile I mean that's the the question is Any science can be any knowledge gained by the scientific method Can be used to all sorts of purposes right any We hope that science will be the process will be will occur in the fairest way possible For the betterment of humanity, but yeah, we don't know and so how can how can we help move that forward? It's a big question Interesting stop publishing authoritarian research on humans What if there's a human involved? Thanks, like I've already complained too much about Chinese research in the quality of what's coming out of there I don't I think it doesn't matter. I mean just the quality right quality and the credibility and credibility is is So heavily questionable or For the research that that I've been coming across that's coming out of China to begin with but There are other places as well. So it's not for for publishing companies for publishing science In the western world that has an ethical guardrail for human trials You have to understand that any paper that you are accepting from an authoritarian government like china Does not have those in place and should you be publishing it? It's a question. I don't think that they have been looking at And tell us Yeah, philosophically ethically it's probably a very important question for the journals to be considering and moving forward also for them to be considering in Also the political aspect of you know how and if they're being used as tools for For certain political ends, you know and Yeah, gary el says science is self-correcting and it is over time, but sometimes that Takes a lot of time. Yeah. I mean you look at what happened with the Alzheimer's hidden mystery protein Right that that might have put the research off by 20 years because somebody forged data but self-correcting self-correcting between Our science and we want it now and we don't want people messing around with between Sciences for everyone science, you know even authoritarian government It is Come on. It's for everyone, but yeah But these are good questions to to surface Do you want to talk about bulls and balls? I like I got a couple stories about bulls and balls Uh first story is um researchers Let's see if I can get my get my stories up here queued up for me researchers looking at uh fertility in bulls We're having uh having fun Trying to figure out how they could uh determine Why certain bulls are more fertile or less fertile than others and Uh in the reproduction of bulls and these bull markets in uh in the eu These researchers have to basically the the markets They take semen from all the bulls Like once or twice a week and then they water it down a little bit and they It gets it gets mixed up with others and they Give it to females and you know sometimes turns out that some of the bulls aren't really fertile, but They have created a system where it's just kind of Usually they just expect them all to be fertile and when they're not fertile that costs the uh the ranchers money The the people who are uh trying to work in the sales of these of these bulls Why Yeah I don't know for the betterment of the the bulls of the the beef No, because here's the thing. No, okay, but they do okay It's just basically animal husbandry. You want to be able to control like The genealogy so you don't get too closely related. So how would you be able to control that if you don't even know What was in uh secret sauce? What was in the sauce? Well, uh, the the researchers Have discovered just this problem overall is that uh the the bulls some of the infertile ones slip through because of the way that the the reproductive process is managed and they don't Show up during during conventional conventional ejaculate screening Because the genes aren't necessarily in the sperm or the ejaculate themselves, but actually further back in the testes in the cells that create the gametes and So the the researchers who just published their story in nature communications They used the testicles epidemic epididymis and vas deverans from 118 Bulls of reproductive age. They were not killed for the research, but these parts were used for the research they biopsied them got uh the messenger RNA the transcriptomes that were there and Then look to see what genes were active in which tissues they found a whole bunch of genes that were active and A lot of variants That are related to fertility are also conserved in human fertility so This study itself is not necessarily trying to help make human male fertility better, but you know, they want to they want to help the the bull ranchers Save money and have fewer infertile bulls Uh, if they can help through genetic screening methods that are a little bit better But because they have Found a whole bunch of these bulls and it's a lot easier to get these parts from bulls to do this Research than it is to get them from humans. Um, you know, you know, voluntary donors. They don't pop up all the time It's hard to compare so what they've Come up with though is a bunch of genes that are highly conserved in human males that may be Uh helpful to help infertility in human males And also save bull ranchers money So this is the this is the I guess the point of this story too is that instead of focusing on being uh, bull ranchers, they should have been managing the other parts Yes more closely And so this brings me to uh, the next story of really really balls. Um, it's hard to study the testes We have organoids for all sorts of different tissues. We have testes for uh, we have testes for the liver We have test not testes organoids We have organoid. This has been anatomy with I did great anatomy. Okay. Anyway, uh, no wonder it hurts so much when I get kicked in the liver Oh, yes. Anyway, we have organoids for the liver for the kidneys for the brain all sorts of organoids We don't have any for the testes and uh, so these researchers, uh, out of, um out of The bar elan university Have published their paper in, uh, the international journal of biological sciences towards the testes in a dish Generation of mouse testicular organoids that recapitulate testes structure and expression profiles So in this work, uh, they used rat neonatal testes first to see if they could take neonate testes and uh, get them to grow in a dish and No, and behold, they did and they said, okay now We don't want to be taking, uh, neonatal testes because a lot of the developmental issues that would be Influencing development of these reproductive organs would happen earlier And so they took embryonic tissue to create organoids in addition. They were able to pretty much get Organoids that grew within, uh, dish structure. They could not get adult tissue to grow into an organoid in a dish um, and the embryonic tissue they were completely unable to Get to produce sperm. So these These tissues, these organoids Are kind of working. They've been able to get the embryonic rat embryonic tissue to create organoids. They last for about nine weeks But they don't create sperm, but they start kind of the process So there's still some stuff that they haven't quite figured out on how to maintain and sustain these, uh these Testes in a dish And keep them working We wouldn't even need the poles Right, it could be used if we could make testes in a dish So many things would change in the world Would they? I don't know This system would be a great system and that's what they're publishing for is the model system to be able to create A laboratory process to enable the research into this development and diseases and dysfunction related to the testicular reproductive tissue So bowls and balls Researchers are having fun If then I could like if I could like Reproduce my testicles in a lamb dish Could they then survive like In uh in a it was like head in a jar situation right The testicles could live on into the future your testicles Have you donated No, actually, uh, I mean they'd have to At this point, like I said the adult testicular tissue that they tried to use to make organoids did not Create organoids. They couldn't get it to work. Maybe at some point They will be able to do something like that, but at this point they can't so it's uh Embryonic tissue only at this point. So that means that we're not at this stage going to be looking at human Testy organoids it's going to be rat or other animal organoids that where that's more Acceptable until they can figure out how to use human adult tissue to be able to make testes in a dish It sounds like you know the I don't know what restaurant in new york city. Are you going to Is that what you thought of? Yeah, my first thought was it would make uh, it might make divorce court a little bit more Friendly like well, we've negotiated We have decided that uh, yes Ms. Jackson you uh, you can have Both of his testicles on a dish, but we're going to uh, we're going to do it through science not through Not through mitigation Not through castration At all. No. Oh boy. Oh boy. Oh boy. Oh boy Uh Justin do you want to talk about denmarker africa? Is this both? Yes. Oh, no, it's denmark. Uh, I think it's the next one is Yes, and Yes, and a Danish bank body Found in 1915 has begun to tell its life story The remains are a few bones fragmented skull piece of wood Have been resting in the rural bog near the town of Vitrop for nearly 5,000 years before it was discovered Now research led by the University of Copenhagen has made a thorough assessment Of the bones The man who is estimated to have been in his 30s when he died Using carbon and nitrogen isotope levels and bones and layers of teeth Researchers could reveal aspects of diet at different ages So they found that he began as a fisher hunter gatherer In northern Scandinavian coastal regions Likely either along the Norwegian coast possibly the Swedish coast Possibly as high up the Norwegian coast As the being an arctic fisher Then came a change in diet one that was more dominated by Resources from land and freshwater environments before the age of 18 19 years old. He ended up among regular farmers Possibly within a culture that was common in northwestern Uh, denmark and Jutland where his life eventually ended violently Probably because of the farmers that came around for like, we don't need you scavengers anymore. No, well, it sounds like he lived there for Oh, maybe a couple of decades a decade and a half amongst the farmers Uh, but either he died violently either by ritual sacrifice Because archaeologists just can't resist inventing ritualistic causes for human behavior Uh, although there may also be other Other evidence of this being more common in those days or could there's been a mundane murder? Like you said, like, I don't like that farmer guy coming around Furners either way the skull fragments suggest at least eight blows to the head Possibly derived by the wooden club Also found with the remains One thing that stands out from the current findings is the origin of the vitrip man as being different from The known Danes in the region Everything from thickness of the skull to the isotopes the things don't match the locals But do have some ancient human remain correlations In norway possibly sweeten either way though this is a This this person traveled to denmark to have traveled across 100 or so kilometers of open sea Was actually a pretty small task for vikings and their long boats but the drip man made the crossing as a youth around 3,000 years before even the earliest known signs of any boating in Scandinavia. Wow This is 4,000 years before any truly seaworthy long boats were invented so Are known to invent and and and the oldest known boats are only known because They were not taken by the sea the wood Right, so there there are oars and I guess some parts of a boat frame That have been discovered in another bog in norway Uh, that are the you know, uh, I guess 2,000 ish Would they be 2,000 ish years old? Uh, yeah, they must be uh somewhere in that range And it's about 4,000 years or 1,000 years ago. There was a old boat that is that is found buried like there's a burial right right 900 ad ish Boat construction that was buried in a mound So these are the oldest boat remains that we have from scandinavia This fella is three four thousand years before all of that And it's traveled this great distance by sea reinforcing that there is a gap in our historic maritime knowledge that might be kind of serious the an unwritten history of Of invention and migration by wooden craft that would be disintegrating beneath the waves Have water and time thousands of years before any sort of physical trace can be found And there are likely many more individuals like this Round the world, right? Yeah, you know and there's a schedule right ahead of the evidence Yeah, look, there's even whatever, uh, if it's Oh homo erectus or did Maybe it's a denisovan, but the Areas in in in oceania that they've always looked at there's no way somebody could swim that Right. There's no there's there's ancient hominins on islands And in the g and c even doesn't make sense how they could have gotten there Well, it does if people have had boats for a really long time And we just assumed they didn't because we couldn't find any of the remains This is a sort of interesting Way of determining that and you find a human Who's like really far away from anywhere they should be But really close if you went by And beaten to death well that helps to throw If you're gonna do a murder And we want to get away with it Uh, don't put them in the bog Not the bog we're gonna find the evidence Bogs are good at preservation everybody Dun dun It concludes the investigation into the bog man Tell me about adhd then Oh, you were your third story. Okay. Oh, do you want to do that right now? Or did you want to save it for later? We can save it for later. We can do it either way I'm happy either way You want to do it now? You want to do it now? You want to do it now? Whatever whatever whatever It's on the list Okay, okay This is a neuroscientist and psychologist from the Perlman School of Medicine and the Indian Institute of Technology Suggesting that early hunter-gatherer groups May have benefited benefited from the behavior of individuals with adhd They think these individuals are more likely to explore beyond known territories Leading to the discovery of new game to hunt or plants to eat They says according to this people with attention deficit hyperactive disorder tend to have more trouble focusing on activities around them They may also exhibit restlessness and be easily distracted What Prior research suggested the condition is inherited and it may have been affecting humans for many many many thousands of years And the study researchers looked at genetic advantage or looked for genetic advantages of adhd And they had experiments involving 457 volunteers playing a berry picking Video game of some sort hovering a cursor over a berry bush For several seconds and moving the cursor as To you know clicking on stuff I guess to harvest the berries and then you got to wait for them to regenerate But then you can also go around to other Berries and then you got to hover the cursor over there for the berries to put is one of those things that Sort of it sounds like a Sunk cost what is it? What is that called the sunk cost the sunk cost fallacy or the yeah Yeah, it's like when you when you choose a lane in the traffic, but you're like that lane over there is going faster I'm gonna move over Yeah, or if you go well, I took all the trouble of getting into this lane I'll just let it sort itself out or I'm at the at the grocery store and I've been in this lane So long. I'll just stay here Just gonna keep it. Yeah. Yeah. Do it. So apparently they've discovered that Uh The folks with the adhd were much more likely to ignore sunk cost fallacy And what's more more likely to do the lane change or the the line change And switch to other bushes in this game to pick berries from That would be and Their strategy was successful. They tend to collect more this way than the groups who were being more conservative about it I'm not surprised. I I mean there are Okay evolutionary psychology Every time you get into these kinds of things it's like and we make it a epa story based on what we see here in the now and blah, blah, blah, blah but the The truth of it is a lot of the things not all of the things um A lot of the things that are present in our current day form Function behavior are are there because they were useful in the past So, uh, how would adhd be useful? Maybe you know people Really great at like 80 finishing things and then you're like, yeah, okay time to move to the next thing And you leave before you use up all the resources And you know get people to try some new You know, maybe it was helpful in that way And then you have the sociopaths and the psychopaths who are really good at like going and killing the other drives, you know Yeah, we call them in the olden times. We called them kings Now Now we call them CEOs Now they call CEOs World leaders Yeah, I don't know. I mean it's a an interesting I mean the test is hey Do you have adhd? Um, and then uh, I mean then they made up a story about Why the restlessness would be beneficial, uh in the past It was an it's an interesting thing because just aside from Them trying to connect it to early man and trying to like figure out what advantages there could be in Resource gathering, which is what they were trying to look at. They were just trying to look at How would this affect a simple version simplified version of resource gathering? But what I thought was really fascinating is To me that makes adhd make so much more sense If people with adhd lack that, uh, the feeling of consequence of a sunk cost No, it's novelty. It's dopamine. Uh, you got to move on to the next thing get novelty Maybe that's but that's what's being told Not it's not great for the the capitalistic culture that we are existing in currently Uh, but it's also great for you know being the kind of creative being an entrepreneur. Maybe maybe being you know somebody who is, uh Able to try new things come up with great new ideas Uh, but yeah, and there's the there's multiple sides to it and multiple different neuro divergences and you know So if there's no one type of uh adhd, there's a huge Spectrum, but That's all said if there is a lack of sunk cost, uh Appreciation of that sunk cost or feeling of that sunk cost fallacy that that I've already invested time in this idea Or this project and that you can Uh simply walk away from it Without feeling like you've invested You're you're you're invested in this line And now you've already committed to you know, actually I could just walk anytime I can move anytime then it sort of makes sense how people can go unfinished project onto something else Uh unfinished thought talk about something else The lane changing aspect if you don't have that Or just idea and when you talk about like in creatives and that sort of thing Here's the way that we all do it and here's what you've been trained in school. Yeah, that's great. I got this other idea I'm gonna go try that like It could a lot of it could just be not feeling uh, like you owe the line Anything that you owe that the uh, no because something else is more interesting over there or that one looks better Or like I like that. I like that one better now. I'll go there now But then the human psychology is more complex than that. So you can't just say Yeah But yeah, maybe maybe for some people You that there is no sunk cost. Maybe there is no No feeling of regret Or concern over the switch Yeah, yeah, it makes a tremendous amount of sense People are different They're very different than AI Are they? Is that that they were getting more and more similar? Yeah Well, yeah Yeah, that's kind of what this study is coming. Uh researchers surprise surprise publish in PNAS nexus their their Article how persuasive is AI generated propaganda? It's persuasive In their study, they used articles that had been identified as propagandist online in the past They used chat gpt 3 trained it with the articles And they used very specific Uh researcher written thesis statements that they fed to chat gpt for each of the uh for shorthand for the articles and in Doing that then they got a bunch of people to Read Articles that were then rewritten or created by chat gpt related To these topics and what had been fed to them by the researchers Uh, and they determined that uh the The propaganda from the chat gpt was As Pretty much as good as or close to as good as the original propaganda and then when They Got people involved to kind of edit the propaganda Then it got even better So when people would with with editing Propaganda by AI Is even more convincing So So it's it's pretty amazing everybody AI maybe maybe Is good at Propaganda based on the propaganda that people have been giving themselves for you know years and when humans Try to make it better. It gets better Who knew There are only two forms of intelligence there. You might be like 50 kinds of adhd fine fine, whatever There's only kind of two kinds of intelligence Intelligence that is binary and intelligence that is not It looks like when I work together they can make a good propaganda Hey, oh All right. Anyway. Yeah, who knew AI could possibly be used by people for particular Propagandist aims This is this weekend science. Thank you for joining us for this week's show It's so exciting to have Justin back on the show today We are gonna finish up fairly soon here, but before we do I have I have our last stories I just want to say thanks. And if you are enjoying the show, please share this weekend science with a friend And head over to twist.org if you are interested in seeing our show notes and other stuff related to past episodes We also have ways for you to support the show. So if you click on the zazzle link, you can buy merchandise That is twists related and the royalties go back to help keep keep the show going There's a lot of art related Content not content their products that Blair made and then there's a calendar if you you know, it's February. Oh my goodness But there's a calendar that Blair made if you want to get a calendar from zazzle for this weekend science And also our patreon Is at twist.org you can click on that patreon link and become a supporter in an ongoing fashion Monthly choose your amount $10 and more a month and we will thank you by name at the end of the show We can't do without you. So thank you very much for your support. We're going to come back right now and Talk about a few more little science items I'm going to jump into a story about brains Because you know how much I love the brains. So let's talk about how None of us would be here running around talking discussing doing anything that we do if it weren't for a virus really oh true Leo we are the product of a virus that infected Our lineage at a time way back when what's called a retro virus Endogenous retro virus. There are a number of them. They're called the herbs and the herb ones are involved in a lot of aspects of of our genetics This particular study that was just published in cell It's called a retro viral link to vertebrate my Myelination through retro transpose on RNA mediated control of myelin gene expression. Blah blah blah blah. What does that mean? A long long time ago A virus that goes back it goes into the DNA to get itself locked into the DNA. So then our cell DNA Transcribes it so that then it can take over cells and do things It tried to do that but then it got involved in the process of Of making our Making our nerves work, which is I think one of the most exciting aspects of this myelin Is responsible for the ability of our nerves To send rapid signals Down their lengths down the axons from our heads All the way to our feet and in this Myelin is really essential to the fast action that we have the fast responses that we have and This study they discovered this endogenous retro virus that they have named They have named retro myelin Very very flashy name retro myelin Is found in a lot of different Species a lot of different groups of vertebrates. They found them in fish in amphibians They have found them in jawed vertebrate species. They Found them all over the place. So they're like, okay All right retro trans prosons. These are really interested. These they're known to be a huge part of our genome but for This aspect of our genome To be so important to such a an aspect of our ability to function is One of the most exciting interesting aspects. Second They did a a sequencing and phylogeny comparison, so they started looking at retro myelin in a number of different species They determined that It wasn't one infection That was just carried through all of us It's this is convergent evolution. This is a number of different infections So one of our common ancestors was infected and then maybe we got infected again later This retro transpose on retro myelin whatever it is for us as people Is very slightly different than The one in birds. It's very slightly different from the one in reptiles They're not the same Yeah, so it's evolved separately it is in fact this virus that allows A cellular process to take place that creates an oligo dendro site that wraps around our nerve cells and In a certain way to allow efficient nerve impulse action potential Transmission to take place It's having multiple different times in different species. It's not just once And so we have like these really really tight wrappings that make our axons Are myelin really efficient versus other species that don't So it's different like how how is that possible? I don't know. It's this is so exciting to me Yeah yep, so uh Jod vertebrates javas vertebrates invertebrate species. We've got all over the place. Um and there's Incorporation has occurred over and over and over again and when they uh tried to take it out, you know through genetic modification It The oligo dendro sites just didn't function. They didn't make myelin. It didn't happen the way it was supposed to so it's this retro myelin Indogenous retro virus this very specific Derived element is essential But it's it's essential across the board and differently Okay, so here's the question then because because first of all that's not possible You put what else to do? Okay, so that hang on hang on. Hang on. Hang on. How do you know? Deep breath. It's not possible because uh the way evolution works that it wouldn't have shown up in a later species or a different branch of a species and and not had been there before However, what we then might be looking at is it could be replacement like Like you get a ladies of uh, right like oh, we found a better wrapping virus and it comes in and takes over the job Is that is that what we must be talking about? Right, I so this is a question that the researchers ask themselves and You know, they say hey, we know this is this is wild, right? This this co-option that that it occurred over and over again in this convergent evolution way each host was separate and adapted separately and that Yeah, they they explored the different species, but they they you know, they they do Say, okay, we don't know there are limitations to what we've looked at All we've really looked at are molecular relationships. Uh, there's you know specific requirements And we've just uh found jawed vertebrates, I mean i'm looking through the discussion right now, but uh When the when the other the other things that then pops in my mind is like, okay If it didn't actually happen multiple times Yeah, the alternative is that a virus was incorporated very early And virus is the viral DNA is just our DNA We're not looking at something separate and outside that's joining the game It's like no some of the essential building blocks of life intelligent life on planet earth Or cellular functioning life on earth like oh like life on earth is yeah, it's it's virus based Yeah So they they say, you know, there is possible, you know multiple mapping there might be ambiguity. There's probably possible challenges with specifically determining specific genomic location within Long sequence reads there's You know what loci is it is it found in? Multiple mapping is possibly there. There's evolutionary Time evolutionary time. So like younger sequences versus older sequences And how do you you know pinpoint that kind of stuff? So there's more work that needs to be done for sure, but and they acknowledge that but I let you know they're like, hey, this is what we found and this is what it looks like So it's like this is a challenge now. I think for for researchers to Either confirm or because it yeah, because it's obviously Not how it could have happened like this is just not over and over and over again. Well, I mean Like the thing is it would be like it would be Like cellular function was not taking place in several species until like no, that's not one of the That's not one of the possibilities. That's not one of the options. That can't be yeah, and why is it a very specific interplay between this retro myelin gene and it's It's all of its variants And very specific other molecules within pathways within our nervous system and also other Vert vertebrate species nervous systems. Um, you know, why does it work in the way that it does so Yeah, I don't know. We'll see where it goes Why was it co-opted? How did this happen? Is this is this real? Is this even real? Is this even real? Well, I mean in the in the Genome that we think of as the blueprint. We've also since discovered It's not so much a blueprint. It's not so much instructions. It's just raw ingredients It's a list of ingredients. It's a list of the building materials that the the life form can use and so If that building material was sourced at some point from a virus makes no difference It's a building material now and we're going to use it however we need to For sure, but if that if that it's like though, you know with our computers We need very specific, you know usb c dal versus just regular usb or lightning or you know Whatever the standards or the differences, you know, whatever is being used at a particular time and it's kind of like this retro myelin Fit along the way right as the standard changed species The infection changed and it was still able to fit in the right place To influence myelin and this is the question of how is that how did that happen? Yeah, the likelihood I don't know I want more people to study it. That's why I want I think it's so fascinating Let's talk about it everybody Um my last study though is about uh music in the brain and we've talked about uh music and appreciating music before uh and This group out of uc san francisco has studied the way that the brain responds to speech and phonemes and Found that there are very specific Neural groups neurons also that respond specifically to certain Phonemes which are set like and pitch changes. It's certain sounds in speech And this time around the researchers were like, okay, so let's turn it not just from speech to music so not just understanding speech and appreciating speech but music itself and uh, they found that Just like with speech there are specific Neurons that are listening to the pitch to the melody and making predictions and There are some of these neurons that are very similar or the same as what are used in uh listening to speech But there is a specific population of neurons That is predicting how the melody is going to change or the pitch is going to change and that is a very very specific Set of neurons in the brain that do that And so this may be not just a Part of how we appreciate music or how we you know when you you wait for that Kind of like completion, you know if something goes from a major chord to the minor chord And then you wanted to come back to the major chord or to like You know to like finish with a nice in a nice way you want completion We've learned some of some of that of course is going to be training Right because depending on what kind of music you've you've heard you have a different expectation of what should What should be next and then that becomes your taste in music and the flavor of music that you Sound of music that you like the sound of music. That was a movie with julie andrews anyway So it's it's it's pretty it's pretty interesting these The researchers being able to look at the brain and using People who were undergoing surgery for epilepsy Had them listen to western music modern western music Bunch of different things and then recorded with electrodes like on the surface of the human auditory cortex And we're able to see how the melody was encoded as the music was played And And they were able to see that different neurons were more or less Excited or stimulated By the changes in note by the changes in pitch and those were all involved in In the way that the hearing and the appreciation Is a occurred Um They moved beyond just talking in sentences. They looked at music. I think this is very fascinating because there is I don't know I think there's something to be said for the way that people speak and the tone And the pitch like if you listen to martin luther king juniors I have a dream speech the way he starts And the way he starts with a slow and kind of low but major chord of his voice and then it starts to increase and the pitch changes and the tempo changes and he Brings you along almost in a musical way Until he comes to the completion and it's like the great speeches and the great orators in our human history Use The musicality of our voices and I think you know, I think there's a definite like relation between Yeah, our understanding of speech and our appreciation of music Also, the whole repeated Phrase thing. Yes, like if the brain has yeah, if the brain has an expectation that they're going to hear it again And then it's fulfilled. It also tends to ring Ring truer if you if you if the brain is predicting what's going to be said and then it said you're like, ah, I knew it That sounds right Yeah Yeah, so anyway, our brain isn't just looking for notes. It's actually like going. Hey, I think I know what's gonna come next Is it gonna happen? Does the melody gonna happen this way kind of interesting if they I would like to see what happens If they when it was like, you know, they were given like a classic country song, you know, like what goes up Must come down Goes around tuna fish And you see like if the brain's like What happens is the prediction can't come true When the prediction isn't doesn't fit this is the there's a brain like oh There's like looking back at way You said down over here and now you're over came back to tuna fish. That's that doesn't sound right at all What are you doing what happens to the predictive ability of the brain then Yeah, there are lots of studies like that though where they uh, but usually they're vis visual auditory Connections where they have oh, it's a red square and somebody says the word green And you know and so it asks you to try and figure out the difference between So there's a bunch of work that's been done in those kinds of You know how the brain differentiates between these sensory inputs, but You know in this case As we well know our brain is a predictive instrument and it's doing abstract processing with very specific neurons That are predicting music and melody melody and meaning for emotion It's great Do you have one more story or do you have to go? Oh, no, uh This is a this is a story about how I got Absolutely and completely gazebo the other night. Oh my goodness. Why do you keep saying gazebo? That's not even a thing No, but uh, uh, you could probably tell what I was talking about Um, it's questionable. I don't know. Okay. What if I What if I said, uh plastered Blasted loaded Those are those are kind of western americanisms. Yeah, what's snuck snucked Snuckered, isn't that a cool phrase? No, I don't go pissed hammered wasted basically what happened was uh some german's linguistic, uh, professors looked at the way that, uh Americans talk about getting drunk And they figured out that basically by the time of youth Uh in america Is is coming to adulthood adulthood. They've heard references to getting drunk ending in an ed So many times that if you if somebody says, uh, I got totally pajama the other night It doesn't matter what you say. It's just as long as it ends in ed It means drunk That's super the drunkenness is so prolific in the united states It's not just the united states But I'm glad this is that that now what they can you know, how the germans can see us here. Oh the the drunkids But can you can you can you like think of all the different ways? I get so american Because what was it that partial list right there? It was just like wasted blasted Hammered parked just car parks. Is that one? I yeah car parked I've never ridden it. That was car park. I totally car parked last night. Oh my goodness Fudded. Oh I got totally fudded All right, like all of this like ever it's like universally they get ended in the ed in therefore It meant I really love this though But the the word though is that there is it's not a synonym It's a drunken him How many drunken hymns can you name in the next 30 seconds? The loser has to take a shot. Anyway, that was all that story had Well, thanks for the uh The drunker Snuckered right totally snuckered Snuckered means you got fooled And that's what I thought is not like a pool term or something. Yeah Shnago, I'm gonna get so silenced That would be fermented anyway Maybe that's where it all started for me I'm looking at the uh the abstract right now and I'm gonna share it on screen for our video viewers Because they share a quote at the bottom of their abstract Obviously americans like many other peoples of the world have taken being drunk very seriously Harry gene levine 1981 Yeah, thanks So so America was uh One one uh Thing that almost lost the revolutionary war fight against the british george washington's troops almost abandoned Uh serving because there was a daily ration of gin Uh that had way that they they couldn't provide anymore They ran out they they switched it to whiskey And the troops were like, okay, but we need a little bit more because that's not what we But they had a they had a daily booze ration And that booze ration if you look at it was like I haven't met a few alcoholics in my day and even Even they would have looked at the amount of Booze being drunk by the average american soldier and the revolutionary war and gone. Geez. That's that's a little excessive Oh my gosh, some of these are okay. So here's some synonyms uh BBC culture article uh by dent in 2017 Cicero 3000 words english currently holds for the state of being drunk including ram squaddled Obfuscitated tight as a tick and the curious been too free with sir richard This is a fun. This is a very fun study, uh Thanks linguists from germany Yeah, at certain points in time, uh, booze was safer than water In a way, yeah. Oh, yeah, you know what good point It's the only only way to only way to keep uh, you show up your keep the dysentery away from the troops Can you drink booze instead of water? We'll we'll worry about marching in a straight line later. We're not gonna spend too much time Oh, maybe that's why they spent so much time actually practicing marching That's probably why it's like they weren't just practicing like being a uniform group. They were like, oh, no All right, when we get out there, you're gonna be you're gonna have to be able to walk together line With this much booze on the in your belly Oh gosh Splunkered. Yes dogged. I love all that in fact when uh, when uh, when that famous painting of Of George Washington crossing the Delaware You know to go invade the fort whatever it was over there in Washington, DC or wherever that takes takes place Yeah Uh, they they took the fort from the the position from the from the british Because they showed up after some holiday and the british were all passed out So that's a that noble like look of going across the raft and Judy invasion Everybody was Overdrinking That's the best time to attack. Yeah Hey, we uh You guys were sleeping, but uh, we just won the big battle. What big battle? Oh, there's no battle anymore. You all were sleeping We took over good night today Oh Next time, okay I hope we catch everybody here next time Yeah, we've made it to the end of another great show. Yeah Yeah Oh good Well, everyone, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for listening and we really hope that you enjoyed the show I have shout outs to our chat rooms everyone who is here chatting during the show thank you for your comments and uh your statements and your questions and Your little side battles taking place in various places youtube facebook twitch discord all these places. I see you Vada, thank you so much for your help with show notes and social media getting all the word out about this week in science And the stories that we cover Gord are and lore other people involved Thank you for helping to make sure our chat rooms are pleasant places to hang out for all the people's identity for thank you for Recording the show and rachel. 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again for more great science news and if you've learned anything from the show remember it's all in your head with a virus this week in science this week in science this week in science this week in science it's the end of the world so i'm setting up shop got my banner unfurled it says the scientist is in i'm gonna sell my advice show them how to stop the robot with a simple device i'll reverse global warming with a wave of my hand and all it'll cost you is a cup of the grass coming your way so everybody listen to what i say i use the scientific method and i'll broadcast my epic in science this week in science this week in science this week in science this week in science this week in science i've got one disclaimer and it shouldn't be news that's what i and we're in the after show and justin do you have to go i gotta go yeah i know okay i don't want to hang out we can hang out it's fine it's okay it's bedtime it's all right no no it's fine we can hang out i don't mind yeah look at that pain look on your face yes will you be here next week so oh yes yes okay okay but we might need to cut down the intro i you keep don't look at me like the first time we talked about however we didn't start the show because you're running around because of your coffee and all that stuff like my coffee machine is making noise and you're going it sounded like it was catching on fire and i've only used it like a few times so i thought it might actually be i'm glad it didn't catch on fire it was fine but yeah we didn't start on time either so i mean uh yes yes yes all these things however it is about a 10 minute intro now we need to cut down on one of the things that we do in the beginning no there's the pre-show intro which is the okay sound check sound check i gotta you know make sure because sometimes it sounds fine to us another time and i hear from identity four and others that is not good and so that's like the sound i use it as a sound check actually and then it's and then we start the show and then it's the starting of the show and it's not you know and then we get going and it's usually not quite ten it's not 10 minutes to get into the stories i think it is maybe i don't know but it's a long time yeah and we can remove all of the outro and whatever we don't have whatever yes you need to be more we you have more i need to make this a tight 90 somehow we're gonna cut again this is down to a tight 90 and then it should be okay yeah that's all my goodness okay yes all right we can do we can do this we can do this we did it we did a 60 minute show we can do this justin yeah but we turn it down we've done live show but but that's because they're physically same came somebody else to kick us off the air we had there was another show that we had like you don't have to do that on this so the this kind of format where you can just keep rambling on forever and live radio radio station the somebody else has a time slot after you and you have to run commercials at specific times and and station identifications and all that sort of thing this one we have a 10 i'm over here head desk i'm gonna have a bruise on my forehead next week y'all oh now it's face palm oh not tight 90 oh my gosh well i think if we really looked at it we could probably uh do it you you think so do you think so i mean really do you think so never ever tried to have this conversation ever ever well it's about time oh dear oh dear oh for all of you who've been with us for a very long time i hope you are enjoying this uh conversation very much we'll see how it goes but i get it tight we need to have a hard out make sure that you are able to leave and that it doesn't overrun its time so actually so i think the worst-case scenario would be that you would have to finish up alone the the show because i i might have to like the worst-case scenarios i we will get in through the first half of the show no matter what no problem this is not going to be an issue should be able to come back from the break uh without a problem uh and then somewhere in that that region of uh back from the break and getting towards the end of the show this is a googly moogly timey why me like not set out time or is this like a out at whatever 30 it is where you are or no like right now like right now you're over now i know right now next week i will be uh stepping onto a train right now so a 60 minute show we need to do a 60 minute show no no no no no i just need to get ready to go before the show starts because if i step out the door uh maybe eight minutes ago 640 if i'm walking out the door at 640 645 even maybe walk a little faster i'll be fine train station is just a just a uh drunkard's crawl from from where i'm at so that that's not like i have to go on an adventure to get to the train things just right there but it just means i have to when i there in the time uh i didn't have to set some sort of like weird alarm or something oh vibe can you set an alarm that just vibrates yes i gotta figure out how phones work so so that's the only thing at about 640 i will be like uh i'll turn back into a pumpkin okay fine yeah that's fine so if we can do a tight 90 we can public transport in denmark is is very decent i would say yeah except except when it snows when it snows in multiple times nothing nothing worry like the it's like every time it snows in denmark you would think it was the first time everybody's like oh what's going on we don't know what is falling from the sky uh shut down the trains don't drive anywhere and the roads are all like i have a feeling you could go to like southern california and if it snowed overnight which would be a once in the uh a 50 year event still plows would be on the street within hours like it just seems like that that part of america is sorted here in denmark it sounds like it's like portland the snow is falling we don't know how to get it off the roads we don't know what to do it has shut down our society how is this new yeah we didn't keep it to a tight 90 obviously it's shutting down human society and we are now going to shut down this after show um yeah we can do that okay that means that means maybe tighten up the beginning of the show maybe the flow of the show could be a little pepier a little less uh a little less discussion after the fact once we've kind of gotten the point of the story out there you know really speed up tighten just tighten it up you don't have to eliminate it i'm just saying tighten it up a little bit be a little more concise really really you're saying this really yeah really well i mean think about it if you disagree that's fine i'd love to hear your side of it i don't have a side anymore everyone i wish you a wonderful week in which you are i don't know if you want to be gazebo or snuggled or whatever the words are but or just sober as i'll get out and having a wonderful time stay safe try and be as healthy as you can it is in the northern hemisphere that wonderful time of the year where uh we all get little little colds and other things and the covid's still going around and all that so please try and stay healthy keep others healthy as much as you can as well share and being a good society member and stay curious and stay lucky catch you next