 So, we went from like measuring baseline like saliva or blood and then correlating that with a behavior. So, going back to the beginning, we talked about correlation causation, so that I would say, okay, so you're a high testosterone guy, will you behave this way? Well, I don't know if, for example, your levels change in preparation for this experiment. Like, this is fairly well-documented in the animal literature that there's the challenge hypothesis, which is exactly what it sounds like, that before you go in for a challenge, your body starts to produce testosterone in preparation. So, imagine like a UFC fighter or an athlete, it's a lot of work with like athletes, but it started in the animal literature showing that animals preparing for a fight would have these surges in testosterone, especially male to male combat, like bucks, ramming heads or whatever. What's really interesting is that after the conflict was settled, there'd be a winner and a loser. And you found that the winner would have a surgeon testosterone and the loser would have a drop in testosterone. So, it's fucked up. Isn't it crazy? Poor loser. I know. Like, you got your ass kicked and now you have like a drop in testosterone. And so, there's this whole biological background to this study of like, you see in the animal literature, you see some evidence of it in the human literature, but like, how do we know what's causing what? Like, among people, there's lots of variability, there's like variability, seasonality, dams of the day. There's like a million things that could vary. So, we said, let's just make this very clean. There's a drug that came on the market. I think it was 2001 called Androgel. Just a gel and it just rubbed on your skin. It comes through your skin and it increases your testosterone levels. So, it was FDA approved in 2001 and then we said, well, let's use that. So we'll do a double blind study, medical grade, you know, we had a psychiatrist on the team. It was like very, you know, ethics approval, like a full bottom is taking the blood. It was like a medical grade lab study, basically. So we have groups that came in, they got that testosterone gel and groups that came in, they got placebo and we saw how it affected them. We even asked them what they thought they got. Did you think you got testosterone? How sure you are? None of that stuff predicted their behavior and they were wrong. Like they're all 50-50. Like nobody was able to guess what they got. So it's not like that was a way to confound their behavior. And we tested that in any way that we can. So back to your question about, well, why does this matter in everyday lives? So, the saying is, okay, is the drug you gave, is it commensurate with the amount of variability that you would find in testosterone? Like that's the first thing you'd probably wonder. Did you shoot people off the charts in terms of testosterone? So when you measure it in blood, that drug only goes up about, when you measure free testosterone, it goes up like 60%. And you guys are measuring in units of picky moles or? So of one paper that's in blood, one paper that's in saliva. So I'm trying to remember which one. So when I first got that question, I said, well, the variability that you see in blood from the drug is actually similar to what you see in people's cycles. And I was like, done. I'm done with that question. Like the short answer was yes. This is within what's called physiologic range. Yeah, the reference ranges. Yeah. Bingo. And like a few people get shot up to be like super physiologic. Fine. And so that I was like, I thought I was done with that question. And then we did the second experiment where we measured in saliva and their levels were way off the charts. So even the FDA, I don't know if FDA is watching, you should pay attention to this. The testing they did before approving the drug was seemingly all the papers were on serum. So you're drawing blood and you're seeing what the level is. Interesting. I work with a lot of my wife's naturopath. Oh, okay. And we worked on a bunch of different laboratories. Yeah. And there's still an ongoing like debate between like hormone testing, like saliva versus blood. Yeah. It's a huge difference. Yeah. It's a huge difference. Yeah. Yeah. And among, I would imagine the same would be true among other hormones as well. Like actually it's also true with, I think with estrogen. You find, or progesterone. I found a similar thing with progesterone. Someone on our, on the team, David Zava, great guy. He runs a lab out of Portland, just near Portland. And he's like an incredible scientist that does a lot of testing for like naturopathic schools. I think he's affiliated with NCNM, the one in Portland. Okay. So he like, he knows that world very well. And the guy's like a biology genius and he's been very helpful on the, on the study. So, so when you ask is it, is it realistic? I would say it's probably not in the sense that the levels were so high that. This is for the saliva. Yeah. But just, but blood, I thought we were like, we're cool. Like it's, it's what we'd find. So, but I don't want to totally nerd out on this, but it's the levels on your brain that matter. We can't measure that. So if you take the drug, like, because you have receptors for testosterone in your brain, but testosterone doesn't pass the blood brain barrier. So I don't know if you're to take a bunch of gel right now. I don't know what's happening in your brain. We don't have direct evidence of that. Um, so I know we're getting like in the, in the weeds, mythologically on the hormone stuff, but like, um, so in some ways you could say to take something to, to a bit of an extreme level, you learn something about it. And the results in all the studies that we found were like almost binary. Like it either had a big effect, like this cognitive reflection task. Like, yeah, guys were less able to think through their answers and gave the intuitive incorrect answer, like significantly more than the guys that got placebo, like that's what the, the facts say. So was it everybody that got the testosterone gave the, for the test was off or was it like a, a bell curve, maybe like 50, 60% of the people on testosterone. So there are three questions and we measured each question in like individually. Okay. So like the bat in the ball question, there was the widgets question and trying to think of the third off top of my head here. But, um, so each individually, they all, there's like, you know, so you even did a t-test, you just say the distributions were different. So everybody, they got testosterone overwhelmingly gave on, let's say the bat in the ball question, overwhelmingly gave the intuitive incorrect answer, not some like random ass answer. Like they gave, and I get, I'm not giving the answer, but it's kind of fun to take the test and maybe, maybe later we could do it. But, um, it's like, it shifted you to that intuitive space where you're not really, you're like, you're not really thinking at an executive level. You're being more impulsive. You're just reactive as opposed to responsive. Yeah. And so that's what makes this stuff super interesting in that. If you look at the cognitive reflection test, it's measuring this ability to, it's essentially blunting your ability to, to think reflectively about something. However, it's still intact. Like people that took longer to answer the question, like they could still answer the questions, but to give the right answer took them longer to do it. So it's almost like they're aware that they're struggling to, to think, to think through the question. Um, so it, but it makes sense. Like the mechanism would make sense. If I was to shock you and put you in the high testosterone state, I mean, think of the states in your life where you're in a high testosterone state. And so it could be, like we said, preparing for a fight. So maybe this puts them like, this is like, you're talking about a sympathetic versus parasympathetic systems, like fight versus flight. I mean, like with that, maybe put them into like a fight mode or I suppose acutely, but chronically, cause you know, hormone levels, there has to be homeostatic levels. Like even though there's a reference range, there's a reference, it's not like testosterone lives by itself. It's like, you know, you have a hormone path where like prognolone, uh, progesterone, testosterone, or DHEA. So it goes prognol, DHEA, testosterone, and estrogen, and then all these other derivatives, right? All of them have a symbiotic relationship. And there are some of them are, they work against it. Like cortisol and testosterone are antagonists. Yeah. Cortis, well, yeah, there's still debate, but some, some people would say there's something called like cortisol steel, where like, if you have too much high cortisol, it shunts a lot of your other hormones. Yeah, yeah. Or like it might deviate certain like cofactors, which converts to DHEA2, uh, testosterone, but the DHEA might end up becoming estrogen as opposed to testosterone. Yeah, it's pretty non-linear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's super, it is extremely complicated. We measured, we did a panel, we did like a full mass spectrometry panel of, um, about 15 hormones. So we would measure whether testosterone just went up or it was like, it's just like a wrecking ball through your system. So we were able to measure that. So we had testosterone, we had DHT and we had, uh, we had another form of testosterone. I'm trying to remember top of head, the one Mark McGuire used, um, what it was over the counter back in the 80s. Um, nothing against Mark McGuire. He's a big A's fan. I lived at Bay Area. Um, it's not trend bull, is it? No, it's like an over the counter. It's like a, it's a cold, it's a, it's an upstream metabolite up to testosterone. I'm trying to think off top of my head, but it was over the counter available at the time. But we also measured cortisol, like melatonin. Oh, melatonin too? Because like, so we did a mass spec. So this is like atomic level measurement, extremely, extremely, uh, accurate. And most of these hormones were everything that was not expected to be associated with testosterone was unchanged unchanged. So you think mathematically it was like a partial derivative. Like it just changed that thing without changing any of the other things. Yeah. You think it'd be like your whole system is going to be out of whack. Interesting. So you could, yeah, there is no difference on the other, like non-testosterone related hormones, even though we gave them the shock of testosterone. So it was like, so that is acute. It's like a one shot, but chronically you might expect there'd be some, you know, and how frequently were they putting the, we just did one shot, just like one thing. Yeah. You know, we're trying to make it as realistic as they did a test before testosterone, how long was it afterwards? So I did a test, let's say day one, when's the next day that I do the test? So the first, the stock trading experiment I can talk about later. If you want, we did that on two days. This was, they came in in the morning and then we did like an intake. So, you know, we asked them questions going in. We did a sliver measure in the morning. Um, and then before they left, they, they, you know, they rubbed gel on their bodies and they went out and they came back at, I was at noon. Um, and then we did the rest of the experiment. Okay. So within like 48 hours, everything. It was within eight hours or like, uh, you know, from eight in the morning, they're done by like four. So it was just one day. Yeah. You mentioned stocks trading. Oh, that was wild. Yeah. So yeah. So because, uh, we, I was at a crazy lab. So the lab's called the center for neuroeconomic studies. And, uh, my advisor was California. Yeah. So in LA, yeah, yeah. Uh, Claremont, California, the city, uh, they called the city of trees and PhDs. And we're this, we're in Toronto, the city of cold weather, very cold weather, gloomy, no sun. Yeah. Can we just do the interview there? Is that cool? If we just like put a pause and like pick it up in LA's. Yo, scientists, we're the fuck is our transporting machine? I'm a little disappointed. We don't have holler. Come on. Or Elon Musk, like rocket, like two minutes in California. Let's do this.