 Ok, donc, merci d'être venu et d'être réveillé à l'heure pour ce bif. Il y a quelqu'un hier soir, qui m'a dit qu'il y avait quelque chose... J'aimerais vraiment venir au bif, mais en fait, je n'ai qu'une chose à dire à vous. Donc, si je dis que je peux dormir, il n'est pas là aujourd'hui. Je vais protéger sa identité. Donc, originalement, quand Zack a commencé l'initiative d'un DPL, je pense qu'il y avait trois grands axes de motivation pour ça. Le premier était de partager l'initiative d'un DPL, pour que ce soit plus de travail pour le DPL, et plus de tasks qui sont généralement fallus dans le domaine d'un DPL. Plus qu'un d'eux qui doit vraiment être fait. Et aussi, il y avait l'idée de donner des candidats d'un DPL perspective afin de découvrir l'initiative d'un DPL et d'exprimer eux-mêmes dans le processus. Est-ce que ça reflète ce que vous avez dit ? Totalement. Il y avait aussi de plus d'inspiration sur ce que le DPL fait, et d'actuellement montrer ce qu'est-ce qui se passe. C'est peut-être un sub-point de la deuxième, mais oui. Merci. Oui, mais ça ne va pas se faire plus. Je vais essayer. Je me sens frappé de toute façon. Ok. Donc, j'ai essayé de passer par ma liste de currentes et de prendre des items qui pourraient être faits par quelqu'un d'autre. Pour quelqu'un d'autre, c'est vraiment facile pour quelqu'un d'autre de les faire. Pour quelqu'un d'autre, c'est beaucoup plus difficile de voir si quelqu'un d'autre pourrait le faire. Mais, on va voir. Je vais juste passer par les items très rapidement afin de savoir ce qu'il y a dans les descriptions. Donc, la première. C'est ce qu'il y a, c'est la bibliothèque infamuse qui a besoin de jouer un DPD. Nous avons un conseil légal pour l'autopacage dans Debian. Le package est prêt. Il faut être réveillé par les masters de FPMAS et puis le CFC, pour que ça puisse arriver à Debian. Et c'est currently blocked dans ce stade pour les dernières 3 mois. Donc, il y a un peu de bouquins. La deuxième, c'est qu'il y a un nouveau site de NM qui a été développé principalement par Enrico. Nous avons le DM Workflow qui est complètement séparé. C'est possible d'essayer de mettre le DM Workflow dans le site de NM. Nous pouvons faire ça. Il y a plusieurs choses qui sont relatives à la délégation. Donc, la team de relance n'est pas délégée. C'est possible d'être délégée pour que ses pouvoirs soient plus expérimentés comme... Par exemple, quand ils décident de retirer les packages de test, c'est des choses qui peuvent être très controversées dans un projet. C'est sympa d'avoir un moyen de dire oui, ils peuvent faire ça. C'est le même pour la team de trademark. On a un nouveau team de trademark. On doit préparer... Il y a quelqu'un qui doit préparer la délégation. On a des idées qui sont faites, mais elles doivent être considérées. Il n'y a pas d'activité de développement autour de la délégation. Donc, un call for help devrait être préparé et posté pour approprier la liste de mail pour essayer de recréer une volonté pour cela. Nous devons juste écrire la description du travail et travailler sur ça avec Kibi, qui est l'un des plus actifs de l'AI. Le team de Debian Events... J'ai été dit que le team de Debian Events est un peu MIA, donc on doit voir ce qui est le problème, voir ce qui pourrait être fait, etc. La délégation de Press Team a besoin d'une date. Il y a quelqu'un qui peut être convaincu d'augmenter l'activité, peut-être. Ce n'est pas clair. Relé aux discussions de Code of Conduct, il y a une question si le maître de liste doit être délégué. Si ils font la décision de banter quelqu'un de la liste et ne sont pas délégués, c'est un peu étrange. Peut-être que ce n'est pas nécessaire, mais nous devons penser à ça. Il y a un gros set d'items qui sont des contributions. Je pense que c'est quelque chose qui est très important pour le projet. Donc, les meilleurs sont... Vous avez des questions ? Je pense que le maître est plus explicite que pour le premier set. C'est OK ? Les meilleurs sont vraiment packaging-related. Depuis que j'ai originalité les tutoriels de packaging, j'ai des items qui sont liés à ça, mais c'est clairement quelque chose qui peut être... Le DPR n'a pas besoin de maintenir la documentation. Et puis des items de valeur. J'ai fait des statistiques d'utilisation avec FTP.be, il serait intéressant de confirmer ces résultats avec d'autres logs. Donc, il y a Amazon CloudFront, qui est utilisé comme partie de la nette de FTP. Et aussi FTP.mx qui est offert pour les logs. Je dois... Le DPR a besoin d'avoir ou quelqu'un qui a besoin d'avoir le DPR paragraph dans le report. Je pense que c'est plus d'un paragraph, mais... Je n'ai pas regardé ça. Le DSA tend à avoir beaucoup de petites expériences, comme acheter des câbles ou des services de shipping. C'est un peu stupide, que chaque fois qu'ils font ça et demandent pour 100 euros, ils ont besoin d'avoir l'approval d'DPR. Donc, ils demandent si nous ne pouvons pas avoir de plus de 200 euros d'expérience de plus que 200 euros chaque 7 jours. Donc, ils n'ont pas besoin d'arrêter quand ils commencent à travailler sur quelque chose pour l'approval d'DPR. Et, bien sûr, ne notifiez pas les auditeurs d'DPL que ça se passe. Mais, dans le meilleur cas, ça veut dire qu'ils demandent 200 euros et quelque chose qu'on ne veut pas. Donc, oui, ça doit être créé sur Dash Project pour que nous puissions avoir une discussion sur ce projet. Et puis, quelques médias une médias spécifiquement. Dans le package LXI, il y a un template d'Adebian qui est assez différent de ce que l'upstream donne, et apparemment, je suis très heureux de ça. Et j'ai préféré utiliser le package Ubuntu. C'est-à-dire que ce template a été broken avec Zee. J'ai peur. Donc, quelqu'un doit parler d'un maintainer LXI pour voir ce qu'il peut faire. Oui. Donc, vraiment, je pense que ces tests sont assez différents dans la nature, et pas tous peuvent être adressés de la même manière. Donc, les règles d'une autre personne sera d'avoir un draft et que le draft soit modifié et envoyé au DDA. Par exemple, pour les délégations, ce n'est pas le cas. Ce n'est pas le cas, ce n'est pas le cas, ce n'est pas le cas, ce n'est pas le cas, ce n'est pas le cas, ce n'est pas le cas, ce n'est pas le cas, ce n'est pas le cas, ce n'est pas le cas, c'est pasaffaché, c'est pas le cas, ce n'est pas pourquoi il n'est pas Shield's P testay, ce n'est pas le cas. taste Breadlink n'aura dûèure looking to issue a very detailed feedback on an idea. Well, the last two are quite similar actually. So, there are more people in the room than the sum of people who ever attended DPL helpers both. So, the obvious question is, what are your reasons for not taking a DPL helpers task yet? And then, how can I help you pick one? So, if the answer to the first two questions is not possible, I would never do that. Maybe we should think about reducing our expectations of what the DPL does. That's also something that we might be a good thing to allow people with more diverse, personal day job et stuff like that to apply for DPL. Because we are kind of a shortage of people in French academia who need to run for DPL. So, and well, maybe one question related to that is maybe we could just, the DPL should just try harder to offload work to the relevant teams. The problem is that the relevant teams are usually teams that are already quite busy with lots of other things. So, it's not really just moving the problem to the next step. So, maybe start with that. Who wants to comment about that? So, who was? So, I guess I'm fairly typical in that I'm vaguely interested in helping but I have 46 other things to do and I don't really need to do any DPL tasks. I'd like to help but mostly I'm too busy with all the other things I'm supposed to be doing already for not even necessarily just for Debian. So, I guess that applies to quite a lot of people. So, I don't really have any answers. I'm just saying that's why I haven't done anything yet. So, I kind of turn up and listen and see what's going on. I've taken more interest in this than I used to for the last seven years. I have actually come to this at least one IRC meeting. So, I'm approaching actually doing something maybe. So, for some of the tasks, I don't see why they are listed as DPL tasks like the packaging tutorial things or the ITP template. Yeah, well usually for many DPL tasks there's no strong reason for the DPL to make them but if the DPL doesn't do them, well usually it doesn't happen. So, it might be that they are not important enough but I think that most of the people in the project agree that we have a problem attracting new contributors and that we could do better. No, no, no, I'm not saying those are not tasks that should be addressed. I just don't see why they are DPL tasks. Maybe they are just things that we should do but anybody can do them. Yeah, well the point of having them there well, that's ... ... ... ... because they are basically things I'd like to keep an eye on and make sure that things progress clearly in terms of in terms of priority what's there about teams, I'm going to try to do that before working on working on HML version of the packaging tutorial, it's just... I mean, I actually do help with the trademark, but from this perspective, if you had asked, hey, I need someone to do DPL work, that's a big and scary thing, but you asked, is there someone to help with trademark, and that's a clearly defined sub-problem, and I thought, yes, I'm able to do this. So it's maybe even a little bit in the same direction. DPL helper tasks are big and scary, and clearly defined problems of domain X are not as scary if you're somewhat familiar or happy with that particular problem domain. So maybe that's one of the approaches to better define the problems and simply put them out there, these are the things which are currently open, and they may not even be DPL helper tasks, they may just be Debian tasks, which no one actually does at the moment, because if I understood you correctly, you more or less said it needs to be done, so you just pulled the task to you because somebody has to do it. So yeah, I've tried to describe tasks, well, not really there, I was to keep it short, but in a quite actionable way so that people understand what they would be supposed to do if they agree to do something. One problem with that, so, is that from my point of view, well, this takes a lot of time, everything seems related, and actually, this is not the most fun things to do. I think a mix of this is more interesting from my perspective than finding people to do all of that and then get stuck with this myself. So, those are probably harder to split into quite large amount of work that could be transferred, because individually it's quite easy to send a call for help on DDA for that, and then wait for people to volunteer. So, sending a call for help for, and sending a call for help for someone responsible for preparing delegations for the next six months, that's a bit quite strange as well, it might not work, I'm sure I would get volunteers for that. I think an important point here is that on one hand, the role of the DPL is something people look up to, it's a cool thing you do, you are the representative of the Deven Project and so on and so forth, but on the other hand, it's also a kind of a dumping ground where we as developers push stuff which is not funny to do and which is not something we would like to work on. And in some ways fine, actually that's part of the constitutional definition of DPL, it's sort of decision garbage collection, it's only decision because it's also some sort of action item garbage collection. And the important point here I think is that in Deven, we do ourselves as volunteers a lot of stuff which other projects have other way of doing, usually by having some corporate support, by having some paid stuff for this kind of stuff. So I think here what's at stake is really, are we really able to be sustainable as a project and work on this kind of stuff or not? If we want to be, and I think it's truly important to be independent, so if we want to be, we need some sort of collective awareness that this stuff needs to be done. So there has been in the past DPL tasks that took like four years, five years to complete, but there was stuff on which the project was blocked on. So I guess the question is, how do we made people realize more often that everyone need this kind of stuff to be done but it's just insane to think that one person at a time, the one who is elected as DPL, can reasonably make progress on all of them. So I think the question is, okay, how do we collectively realize that we need progress in this and then how do we attract volunteers to work on this? I think it's not only a matter of, okay, it's not funny to work on that, sure. I think it's really trying to make people understand that we need progress on those as a project. So I'm sorry I missed the beginning of this, but have we considered paid administration for some tasks? I mean, has anyone thought about how that might work? Are there jobs? Again, it's a question of job divisibility. Is there a little blob that you could actually give to somebody? And I guess it's the same problem as paying developers, tricky in a project with a culture like this. Well, if you start going into that direction, the other problem is that you get less diverse on who would be interested in that work. For example, I cannot easily give up my current position. Well, I could try, but probably the process of giving it up requires at least one year due to French administration. I wasn't suggesting that we paid the DPL. I was suggesting that they had a paid surf, a PA, whatever, that kind of concept. And that person stuck around, he might get some useful continuity out of it. I don't know, it's just... It's not very deboutish, but... I just wonder if you've already decided it's nonsense and we definitely shouldn't do that. My problem with DPL helpers is that we see lots of administrative work mainly, so sometimes it's not even much. I mean, I could probably spare the time to go and ask the David Evans team what's going on and report back to you. But, well, when I see the DPL, I elect him based on a vision and some direction where I want him to steer the project too. And, well, if I want to help the DPL, I would like to help him do that. Donc, je veux dire, si vous ajoutez sur votre liste peut-être d'études, comme des discussions sur conduct, ça pourrait être intéressant pour moi, mais ce n'est pas vraiment ça. Donc, peut-être que vous devriez broadenir la liste de choses parce que même si... C'est-à-dire que des choses administratives ne vont pas être dans le moment. C'est-à-dire que vous avez l'opportunité d'attracter les gens dans votre team pour aider vous à faire quelque chose d'intéressant. Je pense que nous sommes... dans les élections d'DPL, en fait, on n'oublie pas que ce que la DPL fait n'est pas aussi intéressant et qu'elle doit démontrer une capacité de travail sur ces choses-là. Et on n'évaluera pas ça dans les élections d'DPL. C'est vraiment brouillant. On peut arriver avec quelqu'un qui a une belle vision pour le projet, mais on ne peut pas faire ce genre de brouillage. Et ça serait vraiment très important pour Debian. Oh, je dis ça, mais c'est... C'est-à-dire que pour quelque raison, je ne pouvais pas dédicier autant de temps qu'à Debian. Les choses que j'ai vraiment besoin de faire sont la plupart des choses qui ne sont pas vraiment importantes. Mais elles sont très importantes et je dois toujours faire ça. Si j'ai besoin de prioritiser. Je ne pense pas que ce soit un DPL qui donne beaucoup de belles idées sur le projet et de pousser une vision sans faire le travail actuel. C'est une chose positive par le reste du projet. Et... Je voulais juste dédicier la partie intéressante. Donc, vous devez dédicier la partie intéressante. Je dois dédicier la partie intéressante. C'est pourquoi je suis intéressé à dédicier ça, mais... Je voulais aussi dédicier que... En Debian, je pense que certaines personnes sont belles en poussant leurs propres idées et leurs projets. Certaines ne sont pas si belles à ça, mais elles ont encore belles idées. C'est seulement la partie poussant qui est la plus récente. Et je pense que c'est vraiment important de dédicier que tout le monde soit bienvenu pour s'y arriver à une meeting d'aile d'aile d'aile d'aile et, bien, décrire leurs idées et poser des réponses. Et je pense que avoir un endroit où vous pouvez avoir des réponses sur vos idées et de pousser leurs projets c'est assez utile pour beaucoup de projets. Ce n'est pas vraiment ok que, en Debian, vous avez une bonne idée. Vous devez être capable d'être bon en poussant pour atteindre les compétitions. Peut-être si vous avez un type de bug tracker pour ces projets et que vous puissiez les relier en quelque sorte. Peut-être que, dans vos bits d'DPL, vous ne pensez pas qu'il y a encore des problèmes et qu'il n'y a pas de volunteer pour ce mois. Mais, bien sûr, vous êtes au risque de juste générer des noises qui sont ignorées à un certain point. Mais, encore une fois, ce serait d'avoir l'air qu'il n'y a pas trop de travail à faire. Je pense que c'est une bonne idée parce que, vous pouvez partager votre liste sur d'EDA mais je ne pense pas que quelqu'un d'autre soit comme ça. Mais si vous préparez un petit peu le travail en termes de ce qu'est le next step dans ce projet spécifique et si vous donnez une introduction plus longue pour expliquer le contexte et tout ça, parce que pas tout le monde comprend ce que ça veut dire pour parler d'une nouvelle web site. Ils ne connaissent pas le tracker avec une explication plus longue et le next step. Donc, même si vous n'avez pas le tout le tout l'item, vous pouvez au moins faire le premier step. Et ça veut dire que vous avez un log. Donc, si je prépare un e-mail, je peux lui demander d'y répondre à la porte de bourg et quelqu'un d'autre peut le prendre plus tard. Donc, un issue n'est pas tout qui peut être discuté publicement. Oui, c'est vrai. Mais au moins, à la fois, les meilleurs ici semblent qu'ils se battent. Probablement. Oui, public, non. Mais pas le next step, pour exemple. Oui, pour certains, le next step c'est d'essayer d'accepter les gens d'accepter quelque chose qu'ils n'aiment pas. D'accord. L'accepter du consensus est often done in public, sometimes it won't work, so you can always say... It's a fun about people more than about technical stuff. So, but, yeah. There are people that support it. It's true that I could try to be a bit more verbose about what's the current state and what's the next action. Yeah, but for example for those two we have a draft like items, list of items for the delegation. It needs to be rewritten into proper text and then go through the teams respective teams that can provide feedback and iterate on that. That could happen. Well, even if you have only the bug report with a link to Titanpad draft, it's still better than the current status. Thank you. I was suggesting to have a public to-the-list or maybe not a whole to-the-list but the same way I said. Focus on some items you want to achieve in the next month. So it's usually one nice way of having things done is to not do it yourself. It's just so abuse or not do it at all, actually. Maybe I'll read the line right to go for help for the DI team. Maybe you could just send a mail very short to the DI list and say, well, the DI is not having much attention at this time. So if you prepare a mail and send it to Debian Devil, just offload and by saying this it's also another thing I wanted to say DPL helpers is a bit scary. I wouldn't get into the whole thing. I don't want to attend meetings every week about but if there's some items like having more people in the DI team it's something I could be interested in saying the DI team needs more help and I would send a mail I could try to push more of the work to the 11 teams but for DI the problem is they are too busy so like many people or teams in Debian they are past the point where they are able to ask for help themselves Yeah, but if people who are overloaded sometimes need someone to say you can't do it yourself anymore and maybe if you just send this very small mail it would trigger the thing Yeah I was just wondering about the concepts as was mentioned a few times there's a difference between the leadership and the administration they're quite closely tied and that makes it difficult to separate but you can be good at administration you can be good at leadership and we haven't got that many people who are great at both and that's a lot of time so could we try having the Debian administrator as well as the DPL if we made another position would that help kind of officially or is that not really because you just spend all your time communicating it would have to be someone you get on with I guess otherwise it wouldn't work it would be interesting so I've always been a bit surprised no not surprised I see there's a bit of a conflict of connections that we are electing someone to be our leader but most of what we expect them to do is be as an administrator however the leader has no teeth without the administrative powers would anyone listen to someone who just made a lot of noise saying we should do these cool things we've got some crazy people who do that on the lists all the time and we ignore them to some degree yes ah so Bookie said the authority comes from doing all the boring work and that's probably true but we but maybe it doesn't make sense to split administrator from leader because they are totally different things suited to different people but in such a case you have the problem of how to determine who's the administrator and how long will he stay the administrator because if this person is just like our secretary going on and on and on for years to be the de facto administrator and the de facto power that be ah this person gains more and more power both implicit and explicit over time so this may be a real risk as in even if this person doesn't even intend to for this to happen but still you kind of it doesn't feel right that's a short version so you could deal with that by effectively having the administrator come with the DPL par for that period I mean continuity is actually useful in an administrator but as you say there is the problem that they'll slowly acquire stuff which could become an issue after a while I don't know I guess we press on with this helpers concept for a while and see whether we get enough traction in general assistance distributed through everybody which seems a better concept if you could make it work and if it's still not working in another year or two then I think we have to think harder about another position yeah yeah we have had DPL assistance in the past we're also going to charge but I'm not sure of all the split of powers work between them right so there was a point that we discussed that you forgot to mention in the beginning was actually that the idea of a DPL helpers team was actually to have more continuity than a single year and your comment now made me remember that because indeed the problem with DPL assistance is that if they are tied to the same period of one year which is relatively short to learn how to get around so then you still have the problem that every year you restart from scratch and with inertia and common mistakes and whatever so that's actually part of the reason why in hypothetical the more stable DPL helpers team would need to be longer than DPL election term Jacques did you read the DPL archives about always a second in charge and the DPL interact in the past I think partly yes so I think the question interested in is how did they work I think the only time I remember only the last time and I think they both rated DPL and they just coordinated via the same others I haven't checked the AJKs in the past so well you have a whole list of tasks how to get on now is it how do you intend to polish them in some way so people can grab them not just today where you you could shout and say yes each one here takes one shot so what I've been doing during the last DPL helpers meeting the one before I think was to publish actually that to-do list which actually is quite a lot of work because rewriting your to-do list that you write using more direct words into something that you can put in a in a Gobi document it's like at least one hour of work to write this down and find the but yeah so yeah I'm trying to so DPL helpers happen once every two weeks and in the future I plan to continue to publish that kind of to-do list probably a bit more verbose feel free to attend the meetings and ask for details about some some items so one of the question is in DPL we tend not to do ISE meetings that often that's not really something that is really common in the Debian culture except for some teams like Depp Comfort got him is it a blocker for you that meetings happen may I see at a specific time that you have to be there if you want to participate because we could try to be better at moving that change the time each time so that everybody can participate or move try to move to mainly these discussions nobody feels strongly about that well it's not really about problems about ISE it's about holding the meetings on ISE at a specific time of course there is the usual problem that these groups end up self-selecting and the people you've got here or people who found these meetings happened at times that suited them other people might have taken one look at DPL helpers but decided maybe get DPL it's more interesting because they never got involved so just a general comment I feel personally pretty strongly about the usefulness of a periodic ISE meeting especially in this case because it's the place where you have tasks that have been lingering for a long while so having periodic reassessment of are we doing progress or not is pretty useful but your mileage may vary so I fully agree with that but we could do that via email as well I mean I send monthly emails to DDA we could have the same kind of emails sent on a regular basis I agree it's better to have ISE meetings for that reason I guess it makes sense to have the ISE meeting because it's just easier to sync up quickly but there's no harm in having a backup place on email list where you can basically go through issues a little bit earlier and then do the actual more involve discussion in real time maybe it would even be a possibility to put the helpers discussions on to WMD well or on to WM private to kind of force people to keep seeing those issues popping up so not to move it away to a place where only those people who really care and who really decided yes this is not scary enough for me to run away see this but so everybody continually sees okay there is stuff which needs to be done they may need help here hey that's something I can do yes I wanted to say there's also the technical committee who's doing regular meeting in the same way but I really feel some difference between both because on one side there's a team who's trying to find solution and reach consensus and what's the best way to go forward whereas in the DPL Helpers meeting it looks like more you asking each volunteer individually oh how far are you not so much discussion on their decision making group so while it's useful to ping people I don't think it needs to happen over ISE always at least and if you move part of the management over to DTSN in the backtracking system you can at least also use the owner feature to record with working on each entry well at least some people can help on a specific item without subscribing to the all DPL Helpers infrastructure that's actually a very good point sorry most of the things we did within a travelmark team could be done on the mailing list and it was more or less just reporting back to you what the actual status is what we did and what we came up with and just pinging you that's the actual status what we did a few days earlier on sitting down that's something which is better suited for ISE where you just have real-time communication and the whole team is better than just one of the team but all the other preparation and especially this is the status synchronously and that would probably make it easier both for you and for others someone that yeah well I changed the topic just a question for you for the fun would you consider delegating someone to steer the discussion concerning the code of conduct for example butter I started it would you mind giving him some sort of official advice to try to bring it to a conclusion hmm good question can you can you think of another occurrence of someone being delegated to steer the discussion doesn't really sound don't think we need that I fear that that would be a way for that person to push his views quite strongly doesn't really make sense especially for a code of conduct discussion to put a final point on this if this happens as you said there's the possibility of that person just strong arming their way into the direction which they want instead of trying to reach consensus I just lost my point sorry oh yeah there would be a lot more discussion about hey you delegated or delegated this person why not mini-delegate someone else so you would just if people are aware this person has this leaning or this type of agenda you would just move the discussion about who gets to really decide and lead well I say delegated but not formally in the official sense I mean just like you try to delegate those tasks just so that it will happen so that he you ensure there's some progress made and you can now hey did you do something yeah well one thing that could help with the code of conduct discussion is find a group of three to four people who care about it and would disagree on it for quite some aspects of it and ask them to push it forward together to reach consensus between themselves before it gets too much larger many discussions are difficult to to converge that smells of a working group which doesn't have to be a bad idea but then you have to make sure that the working group keeps and remains open because else you would more or less exclude the rest of the project from a pre-selection or pre-discussion they are fed maybe even foregone conclusions which will probably get quite your assistance within Debian what often happens in Debian is that nobody cares thinks that something is quite important but nobody cares particularly empowered to work on it for the code of conduct for example I think that's the case or that was the case for I'm not sure who to even I'm not sure I'm not sure of his motivation so working on that but he might be feeling very empowered to work on it himself he's pushing it which is great I think a more explicit way of saying thanks for pushing it please continue Yes I guess encouraging him is a good idea because I feel it's going to run out of time after that this will not go further which is a shame because while we made a bit of progress it would be nice to go to the end Ok I think we are out of time so thanks a lot for attending I will watch the video and prepare some minutes for the both probably I will provide the link in my next DDA bits Yeah Yeah I will post the notes there and provide a link to that in my next DDA bits Thank you