 Hello, and welcome to boost your employability a day in the life of KPMG's head of marketing I'm delighted to be chatting with Deborah Homewood in this episode, which is part of the CIM marketing club series I'm Johnny Crowley. I'm one of the partnership managers at CIM So marketing club, what is it? So marketing club provides content that's designed to support your learning and actively engage with your professional development and basically keeping you up-to-date with latest trends innovations concepts in the marketing industry So this session is it's going to be a little bit more of an open session So I don't know if you've checked into any of these sessions before but if you checked into a marketing club webinar before This is going to be slightly different in format We're hoping to make it a little bit more interactive and loose around the questions in that obviously I'm reading at the moment. I don't want to make I want to make sure I'm not getting any facts incorrect This session is is going to be open to to questions as ever But rather than doing that at the end we're going to welcome questions throughout So if you've got any questions feel free to drop them into the chat simply hover and click on the Question mark icon on your screen and you can drop your questions into and we'll do our best to to get through those today And also the session is going to be recorded And you can find that later on the CIM marketing club web page And also we're putting it on CIM YouTube channel in about a week's time in case you want to watch that again on demand If you want to share any thoughts about the webinars on any social, please use the hashtag CIM events Right. So before I introduce Deborah I just want to set the scene a little bit because Deborah and I have chatted a couple of times about What we want to achieve from this session and there's a lot we can cover Essentially, we came to the conclusion that it's important to be realistic about a career Particularly in marketing, but also it may extend into a career in a profession So it may be that you feel you have got good enough skills and you know enough now to get a decent job And that's great We're going to talk to you about what will help you be successful and happy in your career as well Which is becoming increasingly more important as people look to balance a good working career with a happy and healthy lifestyle away from job So I'm going to introduce Deborah now and let's say hello Deborah. Thank you. Welcome and Really excited to be chatting with you today. How are you? I'm great. Thank you very much. Show me and thank you for having me on this session I'm hoping to inspire some Interesting questions But yeah, I think it's it's really important that we do these sorts of things and it's really important that CIM supports this Especially from a health and well-being point of view because I know I'm for those that don't realize quite old At the start of my career, this sort of thing didn't really Happen a lot and so I think the fact that we're moving into that space now is really really important for people coming through into the profession Well, glad to have you. I don't think you're old. I'd say you're a spirit and that's exactly why we've got you here So we couldn't we can fire away with some stuff So I've got a bunch of questions initially just to sort of kick But again, just to reiterate, please get your questions in and then I can see that some things are starting to come in already So I will check those out in a sec just to get things moving Currently you're working as head of marketing National markets for KPMG UK So for those of you that aren't aware KPMG is the fourth largest accountancy firm in the world and employs nearly 230,000 people globally, but it's also turned over 23.6 billion Last year that's 23.6 billion so huge organization Tell me what it's like to work for an organization such as KPMG. What's a typical day like? Oh Cricky we could talk for hours just on that question then and there is no typical day Okay, and that is probably part of the joy if I'm going to be honest The national markets piece of KPMG is what we call mid-market So it ranges anything from sort of your startups and scale ups right the way up to your footsie 250 So for us our client portfolio is pretty vast So I and of course I would say this our typical day is that we are talking to such a diverse portfolio of clients From like I say your entrepreneurs that in the garage that are going to be the next big thing the next gym shark right the way up to you know, and the head of Some of our biggest banks and because we want to get their insights into helping The future funding mechanisms coming through so there is no typical day And I think that as anybody that wants to sort of evolve their career with marketing That's actually quite a joyful thing What I would say is there's a typical week and What I do tend to do is start an end of the week on a kind of on a vibe The first bit of the week is that we we talk about Me and my team what's inspiring over the weekend. What do we want to bring into our lives this week? That we can talk about from a business perspective and that can be something as One of one of our content writers talked about mac and cheese for instance. Well, how do you bring that into a business context? Well, then you talk about Logistics and production and the value, you know the cost of living going up and that sort of stuff But then we talk about what's on the rack for the rest of the week And then at the end of the week we sort of celebrate our successes because again coming back to that health and well-being point It's really important when you're working in marketing to understand how far you've come in any given week because To be frank, you're like a whirligig half the time your project managing your juggling your pacifying your stakeholder managing You're coming up with creative ideas. You're doing it all and sometimes you think oh my god I've achieved nothing, but actually just resetting at the end of the week and going Do you know what? We've had a blooming good week this week because we've done this this this miss It just galvanizes us So typical day never typical week start and end with a good thing Brilliant. I think that well-being thing is really important particularly as people are working a lot longer these days Obviously we see the trend of people moving from from industry sector and probably even profession as well So I mean I'm like no no different to anybody else, you know Obviously, I have my peaks and troughs in terms of how I feel in certain days. So yeah I really like the idea of having sort of almost a checkbox exercise to assess, you know What you've done because you know, some of those campaigns can take a long time. Can't they? Yeah, and don't get me wrong marketing can be the most vibrant Filling Exciting joyous thing in your life and don't get me wrong. I I live and breathe this I can't think of anywhere else. I'd rather be but it can be ultimately so frustrating as well I mean when you when you talk about KPMG. Yes, you're right to go for those big stats But because of that we've got a very stable Brand that has to be a dear to that has to and we can't just run off and do all these really Creative campaigns that we'd like to do like disrupt to brands kind of things like that So there's a there's a lot of process that comes into To working for one of the big four Very much like it would be for working for a coca-cola or This share ways or something like that with a younger company a more A smaller outfit. You've probably got a little bit more flexibility. So balancing that I think is really important as well having that Opportunity to balance the frustrations of the week and the the moments of pure pleasure is really important And and and taking time out to to recognize that as well Okay, really, so clearly, you know, there's lots of firm kind of behaviors and knowledge is You've talked a little bit about What it's like to work for large organization But Martin's everywhere and impact all sectors and all industries So can you tell me a little bit about what it was like before you work for a large organization? And if the types of skills behaviors and knowledges You had to apply to that specific time in your life was different um Oh crikey, yes and no, okay If you're doing a campaign the campaign basics stay the same right you you know You start with an idea you look at what you're trying to achieve you go to the business find the objective And you run it right the way through to what your ROI is. There's a standard formula How you interact with the sector or the industry or indeed the stakeholders you're managing Differs wildly, of course it does. So would I say the behaviors are the same? Yes, they are definitely the same Um, and the and there's technical skills, you know, you need are probably the same However, you're going to need in a different balance Depending on the sector or industry you're in for instance, you know, when I worked in the charity sector, you think that Charity is lying fluffy and and you know, are they really doing doing good? actually leveraging stakeholders Leveraging funding leveraging All the the stuff that keeps the good purpose stuff driving through it's really hard man It's not as easy as people think whereas When you're working for a kpm dual a big corporate your budgets are very different So you're you're you're given a little bit more flexibility on that side. So Every skill that you have you deploy on every single piece of campaign or marketing or et cetera, et cetera But it's just in different parameters that you would employ them But I go back to when we had the discussions the other week You know, everybody's a market here. Everybody's a salesperson and those behaviors you need to sort of really Really play through your whole organization and part of our job As marketeers is to really train people to understand that they are brand champions. They are salespeople They're marketeers Doesn't just stop with the person that's got the title marketing because if it did we'd never we'd never achieve anything so You know marketing you need you need an absolute toolkit of skills that go way way beyond The what you would say the teaching skillset and you develop those over time So I know that you said at the start people might be deciding to transfer careers and things like that There's a lot of transferable skills that come into marketing. Yes, you you need the technical stuff Of course, you do but you can learn that What you you really do need is that sort of passion that integrity Resilience these are all you can get these from any kind of job role really you just need an authenticity But I think Really sings through and you know, you see I am marketing stuff is really really important because You should never ever stop learning as individuals we should never stop learning as humans We should never stop learning but more so in marketing because Like I say one my experience rather than age You know, I've kind of I've seen it. I've done it You know all that sort of stuff, but I never stopped learning because there's always something new And that is really important to To think about as somebody coming into the industry or indeed somebody At a midpoint or someone looking to be a leader You need to keep learning to make sure that you keep current and that way we can be the best marketers that we can be Brilliant. So you talked to me I'm glad you mentioned the authenticity bit and the passion because I think you said something like passion Authenticity and diversity equals happiness or something and I loved that because that was kind of I suppose moves into a personal life as well, but also are you Yourself to an organization. So how important is that for you personally but also You surrounding yourself with people within your team or other teams Yeah, it's really it's really important and I don't think any of us really get that right There's always going to be a balance. I mean for me I I go at the extremes of passion. I'm like, you know, come on. We've all got to get excitable and oh, let's do all this stuff But I need to have that balance. So when you consider creating a team or you consider an organization you've got to have the sort of The yin and yang and I think more and more as people understand sort of neurodiversity and And more ways that the brain sort of allows us to Compartmentalize and come up with different skills and And be good at certain things and we start to look at job carving as a realistic Way of creating roles for people. I think that that becomes more and more important Because for me, yes, you've got to have passion. You've got to have that authentic voice and not be afraid to stand up and challenge and and be And and and be Real to yourself you've got to bring your whole self every single day because otherwise You're only getting half half a person and what? What does that really help me as a as a manager or kpng as a as a firm if we're only getting half a person Yeah, we can obviously when you know, everything's within reason, but I really love the fact that you can bring Different people together and they spark different discussions and they and thoughts go off in tangential ways And that little bit of a spark can actually create something that's magical And that new campaign can be just Wow And and you don't get that from just being an individual you get that as being part of a network as part of a team and accepting that Everybody's got a part to play in that Absolutely and I suppose What you're touching on there is innovation comes from ideas and bringing people from different backgrounds whether that be social backgrounds ethnicity Age groups and that sort of thing Obviously be working across cross functional teams which which marketers typically do whether they're working for an agency for themselves or Of a large organization. That's needed. So Just kind of some of the questions that are coming in from from our listeners They're asking kind of specifics about Skills and traits and things like that. So when you and I talked before it's so vast. It's very difficult to sort of Say what the top two three or four are but actually I think what we're touching on here is what's important to you And having those kind of values as well in terms of the types of work that you want to undertake an organization. So Has that has that impacted on your career and you know, some of the choices you've made in terms of who you work with or for um Yes, because I'm I'm quite a purpose driven individual I No disrespect to anybody that's working out there at the moment But I I struggle to work for say Tobacco industry or something like that because it doesn't stick well with my values Okay, um, that's not to say that they haven't got great CSR and they're trying to do good things and they've got money back into the economy and I and you know, I hear the economic Um arguments, especially as you you know, you get a little bit longer in the tooth But for me, I've always directed My career towards things that I've really had a passion about So we go back to kpmg. You might say well crikey, you know, this is a global account that you gave the figures They're you know, how are you doing good there? But I did good every day because I'm speaking to clients who Want to grow their business they want to um have a purpose of their own they want to Um bring economic stability to their community They are the backbone of the uk economy. So by Actually doing my bit Or be it in a massively Huge global network. I am actually driving purpose there. I'm giving value and I think that if I can Go to bed each night and go, do you know what I did a good thing today? Then that for me is is is what you know, we're all sort of here for Really? um But going back to one of those those sort of aspects values and behaviors are something that I would think are inherent Okay And if I'm looking to hire a team around me I think I touch on those things about You know, their passion their resilience their work ethic those sorts of things um The actual nuts and bolts I can teach I can absolutely teach that because I talked to a little bit before about transferable skills. So there's a little bit around that as well about Thinking about what your core values are and what is important to you And and that then directs you into a sector an industry of firm that really aligns with Yourself and that then brings Your true self to the workplace Thank you, and we're getting a few questions around kind of specifically, you know What can I do as a as a graduate or as a student now to to make myself? now Research that both cim has done and something that you and I have talked about is that a lot of people that are graduating from university Have some great skills and enthusiasm, but they're not work ready. Can you talk a little bit about what you mean by that? Yeah, okay, um, and this probably is a little bit of painful hearing for some individuals, but Okay, there's certain things you can do. Um, but I think the starting point of what you shouldn't do really You shouldn't go into the workplace thinking that you're going to become a millionaire overnight You shouldn't go into the workplace thinking that you are deserving of a career in this area Or that you're owed a job and I know that sounds really crappy, but that's the fact of life I mean, I one of my previous roles was working in the apprenticeship sector for Greater Manchester Combined authority And we were seeing graduates there that were doing bar jobs because they'd literally gone through their degree thinking Okay, I'm just a walking to a job That's not the case anymore. Life is too competitive. You have to have these added on Little bits that make you and your CVs stand out Now it's a little bit akin to the whole American model where the the kids that go through schooling there are You know are trained to put the bells and whistles on so that they've got those transferable skills But just because you've worked in a bar or you've worked in top shop or you've worked in M&S or wherever you've worked think about what that means And think about how you could have laid that over your career Because like I said that just in that last bit work ethic is absolutely crucial If I've got somebody that comes in and goes, well, listen, I'm just hungry for this I I know I haven't got that much experience But this is what I did and this is how I did it and this I think is how it would transfer over I go, oh, they've got something about them. If I've got somebody that comes in and goes, you know what? I've got degree in marketing. I know what I'm doing. Come on. Give me a job. I think Sorry, mate. I'm not really that inclined. So it's thinking about you and your brand Because that's really important But what can you do? Well, first of all, you can keep up today But network absolutely that whole adage of it's not what you know, it's who you know is really really important and if you just look at LinkedIn, for instance, look at the the wealth of Information and people out there that are willing to help and support the next generation coming through They're all out there. We're all out there If you reach out to me as a graduate and go, do you know what? Could I spend 10 minutes with you once a month just picking your brains on something? I find it very hard to believe that people that I've got to my level would say no Because we've all been there. We've all wanted that support. We've all needed that encouragement And now it's so blooming competitive, right? It's it's It's so much harder for you guys. So you have to have that leg up So use those kind of opportunities because it's the only way that you'll get through the door Every I mean we see thousands of CVs. What makes you all special and it's not about putting a Picture on it of you up sailing. I don't I don't need to know that what I need to know is what have you done to date that I can then See fitting into my team and growing my team and being part of that okay, and Kind of leading on to from the network building bit that you mentioned I've had a couple of questions that are fairly similar And somebody's asking about have you ever had imposter syndrome? It's asking about kind of, you know, not having the confidence and and You know to do that kind of thing How did you how did you ever come in? Oh my god, don't be ridiculous. Everybody has imposter syndrome. Listen. I get it every single day. Okay and there's that little bit of One of the one of my team that works for me. We say all types fake it till you make it, right? So long as you've got the skills, you know your stuff You can get up there and you can do it. Yes, you're gonna have wobbles Of course, you're gonna have wobbles because you're human But I was speaking to an ex co-member. That's our board And he said every single day. I think the hell am I doing here? Why am I giving advice to people and this is like somebody that I Totally respect and he's making massive decisions for a global company. Everybody has imposter syndrome It's really about how you manage it. And if you can stand up and go, do you know what? I am doing my best I have researched this. I know my stuff and then there's a little bit of Gainesmanship in there Then you will win. You will just win and you It's natural, but use it to your advantage. Be vulnerable. Do you know what somebody's standing up there and going? Oh, I know it all Don't be silly. I don't I never get that. I never get that but somebody turning around and going Oh, I'm a little bit worried at the moment. That's authentic. That's real because we all get that so Be real self because people love that Absolutely. So push yourself out of your comfort zone and you know, if you if you are studying in your university or you know, perhaps you're not Give yourself the opportunity to do those things. The only way you're going to overcome some of those fears as you may call them Is to practice those and you'll get better genuinely You've got stuff at uni. Haven't you like, you know, you debate societies and stuff like that or Going on to student councils or something like that. Those all look great on your cb But also they do what you're saying. They push you out your comfort zone, don't they? Even if you do some volunteering pushes you out your comfort zone It's all these little added things that help you whether you know Transferable skills again. I worked in the pub. I did I did I did tilling up, but I also had to Present the latest gin range to the clients who only ever wanted Gordon's but we had to upsell Hendricks This is how I did it When you you've you've presented there so use that it's a present. It's a presenting issue and again come back to these free opportunities like cim Like linkedin line like google garage all these things like there's loads of tricks and tips that you can take That will help you out from that Brilliant. I love that using gin as an analogy something I can relate to So, um What would you say that in terms of your experience? So you you've been a marketer for about 20 years now What experience have you kind of used from day one that's helped you get to to where you are? And I realize that's quite a broad a broad question Okay, what what experience? Okay. Oh god um, well, first of all, I started off as um Oh, well a precocious little brat I suppose so I've always been um, quite stubborn um, so that's a sort of behavior trait that has come with me throughout my throughout my career, but I think um, my My background in horse riding was um a massive sort of influence in how I Take on Disappointment competition. Um, I became more resilient. Um, it's hard. It's hard to um To get to a level of competition where you are You know Challenging yourself and you're going up against people that are older And more experience better than you but it makes you rally into Becoming better and wanting to do more and it hurts. It hurts. You know every day you coming back going I didn't do it and I'm really frustrated and I just want to give up but you don't because that's part of Growing up and I think that those sorts of skills Really helped me at the beginning of my career because I didn't just fall into marketing. I started off in journalism and I loved writing um, and then I went into pr and still loved writing but then kind of started to make that switch into marketing because it offered more opportunity offered more joy offered more diversity and I still take those basics of stubbornness resilience that drive all the way through every single role I've taken because Again, you can you can teach people to do the technical stuff You can't teach those fundamentals um But I think probably my core skill skill is my writing. I love writing I absolutely do and we've got a we've got a really lovely content team um in our current project and they're brilliant and I feel envious of them every single day because they're coming up with fabulous ways of using content and words and and it's just it's magical and um, yeah, I feel a bit jealous about that's the only thing about Going up in your career. You don't get to do some of the really lovely joyful things anymore that you really would like to but Well, um, clearly you've enjoyed marketing because you've been there for the 20 years So there must be there must be some really sort of valuable things that you get out of that And and you've obviously been very successful in what in what you do and this is a bit of a Maybe a tough one for you to answer. Um, it's a little bit tough for me to ask as well But is there anything that you wish you were better at and if so, what is that? Oh god Yeah, I wish I was better at um At processes Definitely. I'm I'm I'm great at creative. I'm great at blue sky thinking but processes data reporting all that sort of stuff That is really really important Bores me silly now I'll do it because we all have to do things in a job going back to that whole when you graduate You think of everything sunshine and roses. It isn't we all have to do things that we hate Um, but yeah, I really do wish that I had a bit more of a joy in that um Because the whole The whole bits of that I find so dull I really do and I wish you wish I didn't because that's the science behind marketing. That is how you Convince What I call the being counters the people who give you your budget, you know your boards that this really matters It affects the bottom line that marketing is an utterly crucial part of the mix when making any business decision um Now I can talk to it. Of course I can um, but actually getting that data Oh, yeah, I just I do wish I was better at that that proves that you know, you can be successful in marketing and um You don't have an interest in all of it or perhaps It doesn't necessarily play to your strengths and and that kind of touches on the fact that nobody's perfect Absolutely, and it goes back to that point about job carving I know that I have a weakness in that area. So as a hiring manager, I have to fill that gap You know and and that's you know, that's a given And surrounding yourself with people that make you look good as part of being a manager, right? but When we go back to this whole idea of neurodiversity And the way that I think that careers are going to go um, not You know, not too far in the future here when we talk about job carving We're looking at what skills do we need and what type of persona? What kind of neurodiverse individual will fit those skills and that gap? And we create a role for that person as opposed to Creating a role and a person trying to fill it because you will always get people like me who are generalists For want of a better phraseology But but don't don't like doing those things are not very good at it So why persevere with that when there are individuals that absolutely love that side of it and actually Bring together a bigger network of individuals into a team that make it far better far more robust and far more successful And in understanding who you are as a person would help you make some of those decisions and come to some of those realizations and You and I have probably done countless Exercises when you start the new organization or maybe in your own time where you look at what type of person you are and you know In the old days that you to call it introvert extrovert, but it's more than that. Isn't it it's playing to some other's friends Yeah, and you might not know what that is. I mean, no, they're cracking It's like old adage what you're going to be when you grow up. I still don't know what I'm going to be When you grow up you never do you're constantly learning but I think as you If you're really honest with yourself and you go back to that whole basics of Of doing a campaign what's a SWOT analysis, you know, what's the strength? What's the weakness the opportunity the sweat sort of thing and if you put you As that what you're trying to get your SWOT analysis and you say well, I love that Oh, I'm going to be honest. We really hate that and stuff like that You can actually work out what kind of role you want to be playing and that's really important because You might see something that's really interesting on paper or that's got a big shiny salary attached to it or something like that, but Don't always go for that go for the thing that's going to bring you joy You do this for so many hours in your life You're you know, you work at this you get a career in it. There will always be Something else around the corner. Don't always just jump at something because you think you should do it because you really want to because You're not being true to yourself if you don't and more over you're probably not going to Get any joy from that role at all because you're not you're trying to put a square peg in a round hole whereas The round pegs out there still wanting that job and Well, that's a person If you're going to fake it so you make it there's no point in faking it and faking it So I'm just asking about working in a in a B2B environment So using engines in marketing in the last few years around B2B marketing and and What advice would you give to somebody working in B2B marketing? Okay, well, I'd say stop thinking about B2B to start because ultimately As we move through that whole cycle, we're actually seeing more B2C or indeed B2I Sort of techniques coming into play because Yes, you are a business trying to attract Another business, but are you trying to attract a business or are you trying to attract a buyer within that business? So actually turning that psychology on its head and appeal to the buyer as opposed to the business Makes you more successful So stop thinking in terms of B2B, B2C, etc. Think of B2I or B2Me because I think it really switches The ideas and your your campaign will become a very different beast really and You know what people buy off people They don't buy off businesses. They don't you know, they they yes, they like the brand They like the service that they offer, but ultimately it's we're humans. We connect together as individuals um, so there's very few Companies that are pure pure B2B these days Okay. Thank you. Um, somebody's saying they absolutely love your vibe. So Um And they want to know what your favorite campaign has been and why? Oh gosh, um Goodness me my favorite campaign What that I've ever worked on good lord Well, let's just say a one of one of your favorites um I think because I was very young and I was very star struck and also don't kill me all these people that like Oh, I like your vibe. Well, you're probably might hate me now. I'm a Manchester City fan Um way before they got the money. Please don't judge me. Um, and I worked on um a lot of their campaign around um Getting their training ground up with community facilities So I did a lot of the community engagement around there with the club with the community that we were Looking to on board with a lot of individuals. We used art. We used poetry. We used photography We sport we used all these different levers to bring everybody together to have a voice and I think that was one of my favorite campaigns because I was a little bit star struck and It was really successful So and that's goes back to purpose as well because we were doing things the right way for the right reasons So that was really good. Um, I do wish that I'd worked on some more disruptive type brands So like can you imagine being around at the start of innocent drinks and things like that? I mean, they must have had a bore, right? Um, I do wish that I'd I'd been around that sort of vibe. Um, but You know what like say that experience rather than age. I've worked on an awful lot of stuff And I'm very very privileged to have done that but I think That's the joy of marketing you get to do that Whether you're doing it in a small scale or a big scale Marketing can influence everything Really and so long as you believe that in your soul that there is a place for marketing In every single business decision You can wiggle your way in there and you can make your presence felt on any type of campaign Whether like I say it's a community engagement one or it's a big out of office Out of home. Sorry big Shiny dance the campaign Anything you can Want to get involved in you can do as a marketer because essentially you're a project manager, aren't you? You've got all these different Skills and techniques up your sleeves that you can apply to anything. You're a budgeteer You're a manager. You're a stakeholder manager. You are creative. You can write you can do digital You can social post you can do all these wonderful things. So don't limit yourself. Just push your way in there Good answer. Thank you. Um, so rolling back a little bit Um, probably about 20 years What was your first job in in marketing and um, should I talk a little bit about how you got into that? Because you had a bit of a career change Yeah, yeah, yeah, so I started I started in journalism and then went into pr I suppose my first real Marketing role was with a very small agency in Manchester and um, I was an account manager uh for Gleason Homes and um I was very young and very enthusiastic and I did everything from the brochure creation to the print to the advertising which You know, you guys won't know any of this Horror that you had to create bromides and you had to send them to the Paper and they could get corrupted because they were like little pieces of film and stuff like that. This is very old Um, but part of that was doing the show homes as well And we had to do show home openings and we had to design all the the invitations and all the The signs, you know, you see it a side of the roads and all that sort of stuff and then you have to put on a big event to welcome people You know, whether that be with little mimosas or little cupcakes and things like that and That was my first taste of marketing really doing the whole thing and it was just brilliant because yeah, you're in that completely Another frenzy because you had targets to get so many people through the door and all that sort of stuff It was how do you do it? But getting that creative spark about how do we generate that? How do we get the thoughtful? How do we do this? How do we do that to being there on the day? and you know Being part of the events team handing stuff out to so actually having to Go in fancy dress because the the big bloody stuff mouse that we Has to attend didn't didn't arrive and so then all I was like, well, who's going to dress up as the mouse? You know, you kind of go, you know, everybody has to muck in right? That's that's the joy of marketing as well that Inevitably something will go wrong But you you you have contingencies, but that was my first taste and I just thought you know what this is my magnificent you can be You you can have that absolute joy of not one single day being the same, but having still that that absolute creative and influence over Over your day and that just it was a it was like mind blown absolutely mind blown Um, and yeah, and I never stayed away from it brilliant brilliant. So was it the costume or was it the was it the job that? I love the way how that that's so hands-on, you know and probably so far removed from from what people starting out in marketing is Is today, but it just And shows how it how it's transition Yeah, but I also think that that you know, you say that it's it's transition from and how it is today, but There's no such thing as a new idea and and you know that sort of experiential stuff that We were doing back in the day that will come back around because as we start to keep that Digital movement going forward. Yes, there's always going to be a place for digital now, but I think that that sort of That personal touch the experiential stuff will start to come back again It's a bit like print isn't it print died, but print will come back as well You know, it always does it's secular So that's why I always think that Keeping yourself fresh and keeping learning. Yes, you might be a digital marketer now But make sure that you understand the basics of traditional marketing as well Make sure that you understand the basics of event management Make sure you understand the basics of how media work, etc Because you don't know when you're going to need that because things do come back full circle and there's also the other thing that When you are in a small organization, you say that things have moved on you know We were in a Several hundred million pound organization, but we still stuff in Duff envelopes because there's no one else to do it You know organizations are lean now. Aren't they you you don't have that? Opportunities have a post room and at this and at that and the other and the other You know a lot of this sort of stuff falls down to marketing But I strongly believe that if there's a job to be done then every single person on the team should be able to do it And that that's me myself included. I eat why I will dress up as a mouse other things somebody's asking about types of qualifications that you might need and and specifically they've mentioned masters and an mba So if you're gluten somebody Let's say a graduate Would you look for that and how favorable is that because obviously it's very costly and time-consuming for people to Do these things? Yeah, well, there's two things there isn't there you go to a good employer. They're going to put you through it if you really want to So why take that cost on yourself? Which you probably should go Don't tell anyone I said that however For me, it's it's not that important if i'm going to be honest If you've been a career academic it's probably a bit of a turnoff for me If you've done it whilst you've been working Oh my god hats off to you because that is hard man to be able to balance that kind of work life education balance Yeah, seriously hats off to you um A lot of places say oh, we need a degree and things like that Indeed our place does but if I got a cb through from somebody that's actually can show that they've worked on some amazing campaigns They've they've got the smarts. They've delivered against ROI etc I'd be more inclined to see them than somebody that's got a degree that hasn't got their experience So it very much depends again on your personal brand and how you present yourself MBAs are really interesting because I think we're seeing now a a distinct shift in the way that marketing is viewed by Um by c-suites now I think we are now part of the c-suite conversation, which is is about blooming time, right? Um, I'm what c-suite is oh, sorry So c-suite is your your kind of chief executive chief operating officer your chief financial officer So your chief marketing officer now forms part of that what we call c-suite. So it's your decision makers at the top of the tree Traditionally, that's not always been the case, especially with smaller organizations um And if they did have a voice at that table, it was minimized a little by some louder voices But I think now that Marketing is being seen as very influential in that bottom line discussion So if you think about something like cyber for instance Everybody knows that we've got to protect our organizations against cybercrime But your cto your chief technology officer might say oh what we need to put in a 14 stage Authentication process in order to safeguard this that and the other Whereas your cmo your chief marketing officer would say well just one second there if you do that you're going to have no Organization to safeguard because your customers will go where there is a better customer experience So I think that marketing is now being seen as an advisory and an influencer at that top table, which is really Um, which is really interesting and really important Um So getting back to the mba. Do I think that that's important? Yes, because if you can have And a traditional mba looks up all of that buying power looks up all those seats at the table Do I think that I would only recruit someone with an mba? Absolutely not. No um It's more about you your experience and it's about that connectivity that personality that um that vibe I get from you and I I make sure that I always personally interview every single member of my team Whether it's at last stage first stage whatever because I need to make sure that they fit with the team that the personality mix As well as the skills mix is absolutely spot on and that's more important to me as a hiring manager Really, thank you. Um, someone's asking quite a specific question. That's um clearly quite personal to them But everybody will come across this in in their lives probably and they're asking about how they go about getting a promotion Okay, um Wow. Yeah Do you know what? Sometimes it's easier just to ask the males this question because females are not very good at this We're getting better got to say but um, it's it's a really tricky one. I think it's part of Knowing your worth for a start. Um, I would also Do some pranks because as I say as a female You're not very good sometimes as selling yourself and it might be that you're mailing You're not very good at selling yourself either. Let's not be gender bias on this But what really helps is when I go back to that initial start of our journey together today I said about the the start of the week and the end of the week Document your wins document your successes. Whether it's on spreadsheet. It's just in the notebook Whatever because if you start to collect those things when you start doing your reviews And I mean your appraisals or whatever your your company or your your future company will call them You can start to use that as evidence as to where you've made a difference And when you start to see where you've made that evidence base You kind of go, do you know what? I do deserve a promotion. I do deserve a pay rise and this is what I want Use things like glass door use things like um job ads Start to benchmark where your skills and where your um, your salary base should be and things like that And just keep an eye on those things because it's it's it's really important again Come back to that learning always get new little skills throughout the year so that you can say, okay This time last year. I was this but this year. I've got um, I've done adobe photoshop training. I've done You know Digital marketing 101. I've done this. I've done that. So you've got fresh skills to bring to the table to show that your worth has gone up Look at what the competition are doing What you know what where where is they benchmarking themselves and going with an open conversation But don't go in with emotion. That's the worst thing you can do Just go in with the facts and say this is what I believe and if you get pushed back you say, okay Back on to you. What do I need to do? What three things? Do I need to do to get me to that level within six months within a year so that you have got A journey to to to go towards If that doesn't make sense to you or you find that an appetizing or you you don't agree and you've got you've got Options haven't you you can either continue with where you are or you can look to other areas of employment or you can You know look to other areas within the same business but at least you've got the option and you've got the The evidence to back that up brilliant good answer um So how do you learn some of the things that you're not good at you talked about some of the things that you don't like Um, I suppose this is a little bit about motivation as well How do you learn them? Um For me it's about Okay, like I say, I don't I don't really like data. I don't however. I've got a really great um performance marketing manager who actually loves data and he makes sense of it for me So he he Puts it into a language that is appropriate for me. So we've worked together quite a long time So he makes it interesting. So all of a sudden I want to learn about it I want to understand how that should influence my decision making so it's finding tricks and tips that help you to To find that way through the dislike now that could be a tech talk It could be you see I am training it could be just speaking to a mentor It could be Just reaching out to a colleague and seeing how they repackage those things. There are various ways that you can do that but Look, we've got to be you you've got to be realistic There are going to be things in your career in your daily life that you don't like and You know what you're human and that's fine Just so long as you recognize that sometimes you just have to put your big girl knickers on and Suck it up really and just get on with it If you find it's a weakness and that it's a it's going to damage your output Then that's where proper proper training comes in and I think that that's the difference of whether it's just a dislike Or whether it's something that's actually lacking and I think only you as an individual would know that Okay, thank you So we hear a lot a bit about digital skills and how important they are And Is that important when you're if your friends lie in writing for example And we see a lot of jobs these days where you're expected to have skills in both areas Can you is it is a is an example is it either in your in your career or within your team where you've got people who Are flexible or perhaps have multi skills? Yes, absolutely So in my in my team, I've got some well What have I got? I probably say I do err on the side of more generalists because with a a passion or a leading one area because That allows me to get a bit of free training for the team as well So if you've got a content writer that can actually do film editing or Podcasts they can actually train other areas of the team to do some of that as well So that's that's called de-risking your team because if someone's on holiday or they're absent through illness or they leave or something like that All of that IP hasn't left with them. So for me Um, yes, I think there there are areas where there is some very very specific roles that need to be filled That can't be done by a generalist Um But in the main I tend to go with people that have got a passion for one aspect But can do bits of others or at least are willing to learn bits of others as well Thank you So if you get to one thing to boost your employability What would that be now? I'm saying that you're probably not trying to boost your employability, but this goes back to Um, well, yeah, okay. Let's talk about lifelong learning Yes I have lifelong learning is is crucial and um You know, I I've mentioned TED talks I'm a big fan of those right because I just think that you get you get some really great nuggets from that Um, I do use your uh, CRM facilities quite often. Um, I do go to Conferences and exhibitions where there are Um, like-minded peers and more senior individuals than me so that can get their experience One thing I've really found Important to me as I go up through my career It's not necessarily on the skills for marketing, but it's the skills for being a leader Is um, securing a couple of mentors because you get a really great insight into Where your weaknesses are as as a leader so I think It's really important that you have Uh an ability to self reflect and be self aware, but you can only do that within a certain Level you you know, you've got a blocker on yourself. You don't know whether you actually do that really well You might think you do you might actually not so things like 360 degree appraisals those sorts of things are really important um I I have recently gone through a sort of a process of looking that Moving into a slightly different job. Um as a client experience lead and I had to sort of Justify my existence there and it's It really is about What makes me the individual I am And this is I'm talking generically not just me me. Um And I think that that Ability to be authentic and to be myself and to be given the opportunity To be authentic is really important to me and my career and fortunately. I've always worked with Organisations that have allowed me to do that um, so from that point of view, I think that that makes That's boosted my employability In a way that I I kind of haven't realised until I was a little bit later in my career Okay, brilliant. Um, now we probably have one last So time for one last question and and we talked at the top about the importance of well-being and happiness So I think it's it's only it's very important to to deal with that now So we're talking about stresses now. I'm not suggesting that you get stressed in your job But there are parts of stressful situations that we all feel and in our job What do you do to manage situations like that? Um, okay. So the first thing that you should know is that I've got three border collies So, um, if ever I get really really stressed, I just take time out I I take them around. Well, I say around the block. I live on a farm So around the block for me is like a mile walk. So actually stomping through some country lanes just resetting really helps me because Sometimes your your Your job is is ever present. It's it's in your head constantly. You're thinking god, I've got to get that right Oh my god, that's spelling error. Oh my god. Oh my god. Oh my god And you start to distill it down and it becomes this thing that's like constantly on your shoulders It's like this devil But what I say to my team around that and and I try to do it myself is that look we're not saving babies Okay, and you know, some people are saving babies and they have every every right to be stressed But if you're just putting out an invite for an event and there's a little bit of a type on it Yeah, okay, it doesn't look great But nobody's dying. Nobody's we're not saving babies. We're just just we configure what does that mean in the grand scheme of things Take a breath and put it right Everyone will forgive you for making an error. You're human So just take a breath and that's the sort of aspect of stress that we We find uncontrollable sometimes we don't take enough time out to to just think Really what why does it matter? Because we get so Involved in the process now I'm not suggesting for one minute that you're unprofessional about anything. Oh, it doesn't matter, you know Be be aware of it correct it Apologize if you need to but but don't Don't let it eat you up And if you do start to get to that point where you feel like it is eating you up take time out Just take a breath whatever works for you whether it's fitness whether it's going for a walk whether it's just You know go for a nap Talking it through with someone Just take time for you now. I'm I'm terrible at this I don't take enough me time. I work too many hours and it's sort of like do as I say not as I you know No, do as I say not as I do I'm absolutely shocking for it But what I think is really important Is again to celebrate those successes because once you celebrate the successes the little Losses don't become that big and it just resets you and quite frankly. Yes, you will have stressful days You really will but working a career in marketing gives you so much happiness So much joy that you won't gain a lot of careers. So, you know, we're the lucky ones to be honest Great answers that good advice as well Sadly that is all we've got time for and we said before we came on on air that We would probably went out of time because there's lots to talk about and thanks for everybody for questions in there I just want to talk about the next marketing club webinar series, which is Called make an impact with a standout personal brand. So we talked a little bit about personal brand today So maybe that's something you want to check out and that'll be at 6 30 or wednesday the 20th of april And that's with debba Ogden And she will explore how managing your personal brand can help build confidence and improve impact and boost your career as well So it's an extension of what we talked about today And you can find further details on that on cim website where you can also register for the session as well So once again, um, I want to say thank you very much to everybody listening also Thanks debba. That was amazing Love to have you on there. Um, sadly there's a few more questions that we didn't get answered but hopefully guys can check in at some point in the future and Feel free to ask the questions again. And um, it'd be great to get those answers We will be emailing you actually a short survey from from today's webinar So it'd be great to hear some feedback where you thought this was interesting But he didn't um, it only takes a couple of minutes and it's all anonymous if you if you put in some responses in there That helps us build up an understanding of what is interesting to you And and we can build on that and put future events together and get certain speakers in there Maybe you want to hear more from debba? I certainly do. Um, and we could we could Potentially get her back on I'm sure I could have that discussion Um, so that leaves me once again. Just say thanks debba loved it It's been amazing chatting to you and thank you everybody else for for joining. Um in the meantime, take care everybody and have a good rest of your day