 934 AM. So we have no information. That's no surprise there. So it's no update. And also I, I used Phyllis's decision tree too, but it's we're using three, the three and then three point 11. Is that what we're using as a reference for our decision tree? I guess we should decide on exactly how we want to continue to address. So just to really screw things, since we're busily sending agendas to each other. I just wrote two things on the agenda that I meant to say was my, are you guys seeing that? Yes, we're seeing it. Good. Now I will save my own copy because I wrote, I wrote 934, and I have no update. So I'm going to save my own copy now so that you guys don't have to see that. Okay. Let me, well, I don't want to mess up everybody else's notes of their own. So serious question. So how long would you like to ask a, meaning what the name of it was? Yeah, I did, I did find the one that I just, George, did you have it? It's like I am happening this way, it was three and then another, I think three point 11. What I have is it, you're right. It's under process and decision trees. And if it's the right one, it's process three dash 11. It's a PDF and it's the most recent modifier was Evan, which would be correct, I think. All right. So it's just, there's no three before. I just, I don't see it. I'm going to open it. I'm going to open it and see what we have. This does look like the, yes, the draft that we, better when it's to look at it and make sure we're looking at the right thing. So we're in the process and decision trees folder. That's correct. And POCA proposed process 311. That's correct. That's the one that I understand to be the one that we decided on. It seems like the most recent document. Other than what's the report, what's this one? Report town council appointments. I don't know. It was the multiple member bodies, option one, option two, option three. Right. I think that's why I wouldn't use it. All right. I'm sorry. I'm sending this to her. What are we talking about? So that's what that's what we're just trying to agree is to the name and the actual file that we have decided to be the process and in the process and decision trees folder, the unique one, if you're there under, it's down in the bottom, OCA proposed process 3-11 PDF. My understanding that is what we used. And that's what I referenced. I thought in the minutes, but you need to look at it and make sure that's right. That's correct. And that's the most updated. Right. And it's the one that we agreed to follow, given the fact that we don't have definitive legal guidance and we're probably not going to get it anytime soon. So I think we need to just go ahead. So, and didn't we already vote on it? Yes, we're just trying to. So, and I'm sorry to ask you to catch me up, but I'll try not to do this very much. But in terms of documents that are in this folder that are recent vintage, I'm looking at this one, which is the one, the 3-11 one, right? That everybody's talking about, right? Yes, for the camera. And, but there's also a document that I seem to have moved into there. That's the potential options to multiple member bodies that includes several decision trees. Is this out of date, or is this the currently expanded version of the words on this page? Only because I also see past decision trees, because what I wanted to get at was what the complete the, and I will explain to you, and it is an action to do that for us, and we should have it. I've already done the schematic. If you want the narrative, I can write a narrative. If you could, that would be fantastic. For tonight. So, I mean, if you, but it actually doesn't need to really be done. The narrative doesn't really need to be done today. It only needs to be done by our next town council meeting. Potentially. And I will explain why, yes. So the thing that's called report dashed TC appointments to MMB process trees. Yes. Is undated. That is what is confusing me. But it is where we ended up in terms of schematics prior to the revisions that you are making. So it is our most recent version. Is that correct? Is the Zeno's recent version of process trees in addition, when coupled with the OCA proposed process? Yes. This was, this was before we got, this is my mistake, because I should have dated it, but this was before we got legal opinion from town attorney about the dyads. Okay. And this was when we were awaiting that decision. And so the third diagram in that is our proposed process and the other two were here are two options we could do if town attorney tells us we can't do the dyads, which she did. Okay. And so then if the one that we are actually working on 311, the nice pretty tree that's on that one, that's the one we're currently working on. That is the one that we voted. Okay. So this other is just background. And where is the one that has the public process? So technically there's an example of that in the report town council appointments. Sarah asked last night in email where I received, I started working on that, but given that I got that email at like 10 p.m. But it's going to be on that document? I will, I will add it to the share point when I have completed it. It could be some time today. Has a separate document? That's a separate document, correct. Okay, cool. So, so a completely public process we have, we don't have in this. So we, so we, so. And we would have talked about it. And basically, yeah, we will be, I think we should sort of talk about it. So, because none of these three options on this document were completely public, they were just variations of what we were trying to do with privacy. All right. So, correct. So that everybody's on the same page. Darcy has submitted a minority report, encouraged or suggested or given information. Suggested. And then at our last meeting, we took the vote that we should also have a minority report. I would just like us to have by next town council, not tonight's town council meeting, but the meeting after, we need to sort of talk about how we would like to put together a share point and a presentation. Our decision tree, our practice that we voted on and adopted our last open meeting. And someone of a summary got there and what an alternative. Tonight after I present our report, then Lynn will ask Darcy to present her minority report. Darcy has already told us previously that she feels strongly about the fact that said that after Darcy makes that request that Lynn will then respectfully put that discussion and vote. So, we need to expect that this evening and also because time is short, I would like to be able to sort of start getting together how we would like to present that at our next, not tonight's, but our next town council meeting. I think that we also should realize that the point is not that I'm objecting to this particular process. It's just the principle of bringing it, bringing a policy decision to the town council. So, it's not really about one or the other process. But can I ask a question? I'm a little bit confused about what the process for tonight is. Lynn is planning to make a motion. Darcy will make her report. Will make her report. Correct. Can I talk for a minute? Why is Darcy making a minority report? Did you actually say we voted to have a minority report? Since when do you vote to have minority reports? No, Lynn just suggested it. Okay. So, at everybody I've ever been part of, when you have a report, you say, this many people voted for it, this many people voted against it and you write why people voted for it and why people voted against it. You don't have a separate piece of paper that's called a minority report. It's not what we did at town meeting. And if people wanted to then question what the, like more, like they felt like maybe the planning board, because it's the best example that we used in this community, gave short shrift to what the minority opinion was. Like they wrote this much and then they wrote that much. Then somebody in town meeting would say, I want to hear more from the three people who voted against this because I feel like I don't have enough information based on what you wrote in this report. I think maybe you're not telling the whole story. And then that person would report. I'm not sure. I don't have any understanding as to why we would have an official separate, you will automatically be called on to do a minority report sort of deal. I just, that, that makes no sense to me. So if I don't like something that the, that else that I'm a committee member of, I just get to automatically be recognized for minority. I do not understand that process at all. It might work. I mean, I don't, I want to give you the chance to talk, Darcy. I just want it to come from a counselor saying, I'd like to hear more. Or I think it's perfectly laid out here and Darcy is absolutely right. I'm going to agree with her as opposed to why do you get as much airtime as the majority opinion? I don't understand that. I don't, I don't get it. And it's not you personally, it's, it's just, this is a new process thing for us, right? Yeah. For the council because we've not, we knew it was going to start getting harder. We did it sort of with the ECAC ad hoc committee report, but not really it was all in one report, it was all in one report. And this Lynn asked to have it as an addendum to the report. So, so that's fine. She can have an opinion that doesn't make it the law. Right. So, well, that's something we can talk about. I was, I was going to say, I think, because that was, so I, Lynn, this came because of Lynn and when the moment that left Lynn's mouth, I thought, because it does make me nervous because so in GOL, we had four one vote. I was the one who dissented. I have no intention of writing my own GOL report to explain my one dissenting vote. And it seems problematic if, if every time there's a split vote, somebody gets a minority report and then they get to present to the town council. Not, not just because it's messy, but also it's time consuming. So, I think, I think this is something that rules needs to figure out the way or to do this, it could be a GOL thing because it has to do with anything that's not rules. GOL needs to fix it. But there needs to be some standardization of reports too because it did strike me that every split vote should not have a separate minority report. It should be covered in the report. And you absolutely, you can't ignore what the other people said and remembering. And this was, and this was it, you know, this is not, this is, let's, let's set this in. But remembering, of course, there could be multiple people with multiple reasons. So they shouldn't all have to write separately for someone their minority opinion. So when I wrote my report, I feel like it was sort of, I know I haven't actually written a report with two, so I needed to do that. I did not cover in, I sent you a draft which I know that Alyssa has suggested some edits and then Darcy had done some editing. I have not looked at it again. I did put it in this week's meeting packet. So I can also revise my draft to reflect split in the, which I, like I said, I don't want to use. So feel, it felt somewhat reactionary after Lynn suggested that my minority report. So I'll change that. And just to be really clear, so that I'm totally clear about what's happening. So at our meeting, our last meeting, we had a vote that was at Darcy. You should write a minority report, which she did submit. I had an email from Lynn this morning asking me please to attach that to my report. And then I was also, Darcy was kind of to CC me in on Lynn's response to how, Darcy asked how should I have made this motion, you know, about what I'm concerned about. I'm confused about what this motion, this is a formal, is there a formal motion that would be made? I'm actually just going to read to you. This is why I pulled up and then I tapped my screen and it went away. Okay. Okay. This is what Lynn has proposed as a process. She said, I asked Sarah to include the minorities report with her report. She will be providing us for this afternoon. It will be added electronically to material for tonight. And I will ask Margaret to make a copy for our folders. When Sarah gives the report, I will call on you Darcy to briefly give your minority report. At that time, you can request that we take up the practice as a discussion and vote at our next meeting. Clearly I will honor that and place it on you, Janet. So I'm just going to say that I think both of those last two aspects report me in management. That's not the way to work things. So I think it's fine to have some thoughts about how the minority report should be incorporated. I think personally I prefer incorporating it rather than leaving it separate because I think everybody in OCA's opinion should be covered in the OCA report. And so I know Lynn gave the suggestion and I know nobody wants to piss off the president, but obviously I'm going to go ahead and do it. And so is that you include everybody's opinion in there. And a good chair would make who could be the minority opinion on any given topic would also include would make sure that the minority opinions, because there might be more than one that get reflected, you know, accurately reflect. Like you shouldn't just and she didn't, you know, she didn't like it. You should say like actual words, right? And why that's totally reasonable. And that should be in the OCA report. The OCA report should be presented by the chair. Then the town, the president should ask if there are any questions. And if other town counselors and arguably as opposed, which could include the president because she doesn't lose her status as a town counselor, don't understand or don't feel like they got enough information from the OCA report about the minority part. Just like they can ask Sarah questions because I'm sure they're going to ask questions about the main report. They can ask questions about Darcy's minority report and then the president can recognize Darcy. But the idea that she would, I think perhaps she's thinking more in terms of being clear that she's respecting the minority opinion rather than that she's thinking through the practicality of trying to do it. She's talking about because then somebody says, well I'd love to hear more from the minority opinion. And then it turns to you and says, you're the only, you're that one, right? Or there's not like three people that voted against it, okay, for various reasons. Then that's the minority report. Okay, fine. Then the question is what happens next? It's insane that you would give a minority report and then make a motion that those two things don't have anything to do with each other. And so if there's a motion or a suggestion either way to be made before the discussion is over as opposed to, well, thank you so much for your report, Oka. We've all heard what you said and there's no action needed, right? Because we're not actually recommending in this report an action at this point by the council. It's just an update. So she says, okay, then I guess we'll turn to another committee. And then it might make total sense Darcy to say, actually, I'm not done. I actually would like, thanks, everybody heard the Oka report, but given that, just like Pat could say that, Pat, who's not seen any of this until this afternoon could say, well, wait a minute, Oka, what you doing? That's insane. I want to have another discussion about this. And so then she could say that whichever councilor, which could be you Darcy, if somebody doesn't beat to it, says, I want to do X. I want to have another discussion or I move to refer something or it could be, you know, whichever. It doesn't have to be like a formal motion necessarily. And then I would think, based on my experiences as chair, that you would say, as president, you would say, okay, is that a motion or is that a thought? What has everybody think about that? And everybody might go, yeah, sounds good. Or everybody might go, what? And then they say, okay, well, let's have a vote. Do we need to discuss this further as a council or do you want to send it back to Oka to think about some more, you know, what's your pleasure? Council. And then the council says, oh, Darcy says again, I feel really strongly about this and Pat and Alyssa's like, man. And then we have a vote or not. And it works out. But it's not up to Lynn to decide that we're going to have this as a future agenda item if the whole council doesn't want it as an agenda item. She has to manage the agenda from the standpoint of, of course, we have to do, she has to do a whole bunch of stuff in a certain period of time because it's, whether it's a resolution for a certain date or a parking request or a budget forum that has to be done at a certain time. She has to manage all that without like asking us if we think it's important to meet deadlines to get that. So what do we need to do to talk about this? Is it makes sense to me, right? What makes sense in light of all of that? Right now. To get us through tonight. Sarah's report does go over the rationale for the majority's opinions on each of those things. And then at the end on the same document is a separate little two paragraphs of my, my, you know, at the end of the section about the, that vote, I have one sentence. The minority report on this vote is at the bottom of this document. And then it's at the bottom of the document. It's like two paragraphs. So can we just move it up? I don't want to treat it separate. Should I include it just like I would have done, had there not met a separate minority report should I put, should I just write mine the way that it would normally be written? I mean, I would, what's normal in this reality, but I would argue that normal would be reflecting the substance of the conversations, right? Just like it's not a transcript, just like minutes. It's reflecting the different concerns people have. And so it would reflect the majority opinion and it, then it would also reflect just like, you know, Evan's particularly concerned about a thing. I'm concerned about a thing. George is concerned about a thing. And then you just go ahead and say, here's the minority report right in there before you move into the next topic. Because that feels more inclusive to me. And that was part of our conversation. I think that it works out all right for us to do that now because we've had this conversation. And this is the day of the actual meeting. But practically speaking in the future, it's hard because a lot of these reports get in at the very last minute. And as far as, you know, juggling these different things, it might be difficult. But anyway, we don't have to solve that right here. So why don't we just decide what we're doing with this? Because I know we have a bunch of other things to decide today. So I think, so you're, I'm looking at your report right now. It's a paragraph, right? So it seems like that paragraph could just be worked in. If you're, I mean, I sort of feel bad because you wrote something and I don't, we don't want to get rid of what you wrote. But it seems like it could just be worked into the current report. It doesn't matter to me. Literally your language could be hot. It's fine with me. The principle is that I would like to maintain the ability of people to write minority reports. But I don't care about this one in particular because we're all here and we're talking about it and that's fine. And I think as far as I agree that it's been a problem that reports tend to get written and submitted. So although I do think that part of that is a product of the fact that this committee meets every week. So like GOL because we meet every other week, we see a draft of the committee. The chair of GOL sends a draft of the committee report to the entire committee for feedback editing a week before it's submitted. Because we meet, we meet twice a month, right? So we meet on a Wednesday. We get the report the following Wednesday at the latest. And then there's a week for the entire committee to sort of add things before it has to go in the following Wednesday. It's tough for this committee because we meet every week and that's a lot. So one of the things we might want to consider is maybe we, we just, we have a, this committee adopts an idea. We don't submit the report to the council every council meeting. You know that, and you haven't. And I think that's, it's important right now. We haven't made a lot of the votes. Right. So what I'm trying to do is I did send you my draft and I realized it was last night. It wasn't right. I haven't to be honest. I don't know if it was before or right. Just, and the only thing that I have put in were a couple of votes that I wanted to be able to take today. And I still can send that to everybody ahead of time. And what you would want to agree on is, unless it's something special, when I, I'll send you guys a report, like say you report out every two weeks or once a month, I will send it out to you as quickly in advance as I can try to do at least 48 hours. And then normally I probably would not report out on something we had doing in the meeting that morning. I think this is just a somewhat different circumstance because we were also asked in our last meeting to consider taking two things out of our charge, which I know from being on the, um, Linda's goal committee that does something that she really wants us to report back on because. So I'm lost. What happened to your report? Why is it? I don't want to make anybody panic here, but it's coming up as a blank dot. Okay. If it's a template, it is one. So if you're looking at a template, you're okay. I've got two things called template. I mean, there should be a draft. There should be one that says, uh. What folder would I be looking for this? It's not yet under reports. It's in our meeting agenda. It's in our meeting. It's in our meeting. I mean, I'm happy to have it. Okay. So it's in the meeting packet for two minutes. Yes, sir. Okay. So I was looking under reports to town council. Now again. It hasn't made it that far yet. So now I have not been able to. I haven't looked at Darcey's edits. So this is the thing called draft town council standing. Yeah. I don't know why this thing won't wrap instead of cutting things off. Okay. So I could take. So some of this, as I understand it, everybody's editing this document. This is awesome. Some of this is the idea that we're kind of pre-writing just like you pre-write minutes, right? Like Lauren suggested, you pre-write minutes. You know what's going to happen anyway. I could do that. Just tell us what we're supposed to have said. And so I'm just looking for the right space to paste this in. So the motion carried 3-1 with one apps. Wait, which one is this? Which one do I paste it under? Also Darcey, did you take out the part that I have written about finding it about the things that or actually 1-3 or 3-1? I don't think I took anything out. Actually, no, it's the 1-3-1. Yeah, failed 1-3. Because that's the motion she's referencing in her report. Ah, too. Right. Was that one. Was to bring it to the council. So, all right. So it sounds like we're moving that into this. Alice is doing it now. So my second question, based on what Lynn said, is it sounds like the way Lynn wants to run this, you're going to talk then Darcey will talk. Although to me, it actually would be more appropriate. Maybe we should say this to Lynn for you to give the report and then you could say, I'd like to handle it. It seems like it doesn't make sense for Lynn to recognize you than Darcey. It seems more to make more sense for Lynn to recognize you. You give your part and then you to recognize Darcey. Darcey should still speak, but she should be recognized by you. It sounds to me from the email, Lynn also is leaving open the possibility if Darcey chooses to make a motion that the council discusses and votes on the process. I don't even know if it requires a motion, does it? I mean, Lynn can just say, let's put this on the next agenda for the next one. But she should only do that if the rest of the council thinks it's a good idea to turn it on. That would be an appropriate choice. It's not just her to decide, oh sure, every single time Alyssa thinks of something, she should get it put on the agenda. Like, yeah, I don't really think it works that well. I really understand how that works. Right. But I want to enable you, if you want, assuming you or Pat or whoever wants to make that suggestion, whether it be in the form of a motion or however you want to do it. I mean, again, since we don't have a role, who knows what we're doing? Is that, but that not be done as part of your report. So Sarah speaks, Sarah says, I'm going to turn it over to Darcey because she can explain what she wrote and can ask her any questions. And again, I would argue that that wouldn't normally need to be done except for the fact that this report is coming out in real time if people have, you know, from Wednesday to read. But of course, we didn't have any of the town council material on Wednesday, because that Wednesday deadline thing fell apart for the entire town, not just for us. And so we, and so then after everybody kind of digested, because people will probably ask questions then. And then it would be appropriate before Lynn moves on to the next thing to have a note to herself. Before I move on to the finance committee report, I should look to Darcey because I think Darcey wants to make a separate statement about what we should, she suggested us we do as a council next time. Right. So Lynn, Lynn could do it, you know, not really, but it would be inappropriate for her to do so. It would, it would feel like it's undermining the actions of this committee. So I think it's really up to you about whether or not you want to bring forth the discussion, which I think should take the form of the motion if we're going to, if we're going to decide to do that, about whether to force this committee to present the process and the council to vote to adopt the process that is April 22nd meeting. So my question for you is, do you intend to make that? I hadn't because it didn't look like I needed to, but I can. And I don't think we need to decide that here. I would like to know if you would. I think your fellow, it's okay if you don't know the answer yet, but I think as your colleagues, we need to not be surprised if you know for sure that you're going to do something, but if you're still thinking about something, then you could just say, you know, I'm thinking about doing this. I think that's because that would be fair on your part. But to have us be flat footed and go, we wouldn't have. Well, yeah. So, so you saw that I had a discussion with Lynn about it. I just haven't figured it out yet, but, but it seems like a high likelihood. So that brings us to how this council will be asked to that motion because here, big old crunch. If we don't start doing, I mean, today we really shouldn't have to decide on what our questions are going to be for interviews. I have shared some things. We need to set up what we're looking for in the candidate. We need to get ourselves ready because if we don't start interviews like right after April 11th, we're in a pitfall. Right. The timing is terrible. We need more other hands to do other things. And I don't, I would like us to be ready. So my thought is, is that I realize this, that what Darcy's saying, what she's proposing, where she is coming from is that, it's not so much the process or the practice that she's objecting to, but it's that any decisions that are policy decisions are made within a committee need to come to the full committee before they're adopted. However, I am going to say that on very practical sense, if this motion is made, then not only will the idea of policy be a question and a discussion, but I am expecting full well that our practice will also be up for discussion because what we're basically asking is what is all of the townhouse going in. Right. Yeah. That's what the effect of it would be. So, you know, some people may argue, yes, that principle is correct in the future. We should do this, but let's do another one off, any one off that we've done because of the timing of this. I just want to be ready because I know how long it took us to get to this point. So, I would like us to think about, and I know that Lynn originally said, and I can't remember if she said it's in a meeting or if she said it just to me, she believed that it should, with her and Evan, to present to town council. Well, this was a while ago, a situation where we are having to put our practice up for everyone, right? And then we're not presenting it in a way that makes sense to the full committee how we got there and what you can and cannot do because what I'm expecting is if we don't cover this in a really great, comprehensive way, then what's going to happen is that they're going to ask all the same questions that we did. So, I guess I'd like to try to stop thinking about how we want to make some kind of a presentation. The other thing that I'm wondering is, I think that this will, I think that when it comes up, it's not going to be an easy discussion. I almost wonder if I should not, if it's going to be put on an agenda, if I should not ask for a special meeting of the town council to do this and have it be called before the 11th. I'm just putting it out there and it could be that I'm a warrior and I'm a warrior, right? Except that I don't want to be caught not having something... Has the town council, the rest of the council seen in the packet at any time this process? I mean, it's public. I mean, I don't know if they care. It's just never, we'll just like, I wouldn't, I mean, I wouldn't hand them our individual, like, here's this tree, here's that tree, here's this random tree. Well, I'm looking at the, we can't even remember what I think started there. They haven't seen the one that we, they haven't seen it yet. No, we voted not to hand them back because we wanted to. Which is why, you know. And we wanted to present the process in the context of their recommended appointees. But we may not be in a position to do that. We may be in a position that we have to put forward to the entire council not only the policy of whether or not the full town council has to vote to adopt a policy before a council. We're going to use it, but also that we're not going to have to defend our practice and whether or not we can get on with it. So, as a chair, I'm really feeling sensitive that we were charged with doing this important thing, these appointments. We have done our work here already. I do not want to be put into a situation where we are then dragged way past the above. And it makes it almost impossible for us to then finish our charge in a time of year. That's the only thing that I'm thinking is that I want to be able to still be able to do our job at a time of year. Remembering that Patriots Day comes up. Do we not have a meeting that day? We do not have a meeting on Patriots Day. So, you know, there's that. And that there's going to be a meeting that neither town council nor we meet. Unless we decide to change it or I call for it, I ask one respectfully to call special meeting of the full town council just for this topic so that we can get it overdone and we can foil it. I don't think that's a bad idea. So, I would say a couple things. First of all, all of this is unnecessary unless the council votes that we have to present the process and have them adopted. Our discussions are centered around the fact that we are developing, our charge says make recommendations to the town council. Those recommendations need to be approved. The process through which we make those recommendations as far as I'm concerned do not need to be approved by the council. And it doesn't make sense for us to present a abstract process through the council absent those recommendations. And especially given the fact that the council has not sit in on what I imagine has been 20 hours of debate in this room and the glass room about this. My hope is that this committee, should that come forward, will make that clear to the council as far as calling the special meeting that's your decision as chair and I understand your reason for doing that. Wouldn't be necessary. I don't think it's necessary and honestly just personally, I am swamped right now in everything and don't know how I could fit a fourth April council meeting. That would be four April council meetings. Right because we voted to have the April 29th meeting as well. So I think that I understand you're trying to check all of our boxes and do our all of our just in cases but my preference would be not to have or let me say this the absolute last resort would be a special meeting. So here's what I feel is that it was the same way you do. I would hope the process would go the way it's the only thing that I was thinking was all of us to just put it in our minds if it goes the way that I hope it doesn't go and then we're put, that's the only thing I guess think about how we'll be able to recover or present. I think we just have to make the case to the council that given the reasons that both of you have presented that it would not be advisable to subject this to a full council review let us go through the process and see how it goes and but if the council decides otherwise then we're back to where we're back to your problem but it's going to be a decision by the council at that point if that's what happens. What I would probably prefer if we have to do it is to use one of our meetings our OCA meetings and say if any counselors are interested in our process we will be discussing it at the OCA meeting and you can sit in on that or something like that as opposed to calling a full special meeting of the town council. I would be more willing to start one of our OCA meetings at like 8.30 instead of 9.30 and use that first hour to brief anyone who is interested on the process but again but having a special meeting to me is like I'm already so tired just thinking about it I just prefer I literally don't have time no I totally do so so what I'm hearing is that the majority view is that we should just give the process a chance and if there are problems with it then we'll have to revisit it is that what I'm hearing and that if that we have to make that argument tonight to persuade them not to you know force us to a decision just let the process go through and see how it goes and you can always revisit it and that may not be an issue tonight but if it is that would be the argument that I think some of us would make and then it's the council's decision and I wouldn't encourage all of you just to add about the importance of all of us as a team Darcy included obviously we just I think that we need to just communicate how we feel and then I'm actually incorporating some changes into the report but the only thing I'm actually doing is changing something that didn't get changed yet about what it's been established versus the town but you have you don't have to agree with all these changes but I'll just make sure now it's in track changes now it's in track changes and I changed to 2019 because even though it feels like an April Fool's joke it's not actually it just feels like it's okay so we're able to move on now yeah we're able to okay to what it would be so now we understand how the process will work yeah in real time kind of just unfold so the interview process I could not find the questions that George originally had we did work on that we did we had it's in our packet and we even edited it one of the weeks we did but then we had to find it then we couldn't find it okay what a shocker yeah this this whole this whole thing is not it is just not freaking easy it is so not easy it is freaking me out I think it's really fun how uneasy this all is and you've never thought of having paper copies yeah but they just look at it and there it is who would make them for us oh oh you don't have a printer oh oh oh we're just left to our own devices yes we don't town council does not get paper packets like the slug one used to no trust me I wish we had paper packets yeah so Evan at the moment we're struggling to simply find the document that presents the questions and what we what do you think the interview questions yes yes yeah they're in one of our meeting packets right yeah but I couldn't find them so it's probably so let's see the meeting that everyone said yes I wasn't at the 18th so let's look at the point yeah interview protocol draft is two twenty five nineteen thank you can we move that to one well let's double check here what's going on why is one called one and one called they're not both dated let me double check it looks like I may have edited one but not dated it God why would I do that who does this yeah there is all one point if it doesn't have a title either first well so I think the one that it was last edited by Darcy is the one that's most up to date that's the one that has danger danger in it which I think is the one that you actually were taking them oh I have the two twenty five one has danger yeah I think that's the most up to date one the one that says Alyssa on it the one that was modified by Darcy I wonder if they're just duplicates I don't think they are the the one that the other one does not have edits it doesn't have danger danger this is the Darcy one that has interview protocol draft two I have two with danger in the top I'm like ready to walk I am so done with this the first says preliminary steps Jen Woisten can help know who will be part of the process we want to arrange these ourselves how to coordinate since the process is ahead of time I have two separate documents that look exactly the same how I don't I'm very fortunate that I actually found one that says it so interview protocol draft 22519 is what the name of the document that's last modified by Darcy I've only got a thousand different folders in a year I don't even know I don't even know he's sort of like so we actually do changes because well in our process we're not reviewing that much shorter until we decide what after we talk to the chair of a committee and ask if there are any special skills qualifications that they're looking for and new members that would help round out there yes is we I'm wondering if we want to like kind of put this in as like a crucial procedure so that the next oh god when we're all gone away we know that that's something that we do that seems like a good idea what are we doing today are we just voting on this well did we already do that no no we have not voted on this and it's not really ready I think we need to have the interview questions ready and vote on those and I would like to just if we're going to do a protocol I'm just thinking if we could just stick in something that we're doing it makes more sense than having to do it later so when you go through there is a vacancy vacancy has been posted for a chair for 14 days so step three would be chair of two of you chair context of chair and what asks I just put special skills I think or in a nominee that would help I'm gonna say round out I'm something stronger we've written this like 40 different times because we wrote it once to Greg we wrote it once to Mark we wrote it like like it doesn't need to be like totally precise but yeah it's where did you say level knowledge skills abilities but I mean look at one of the you have you added the one the exchange you had with Greg I think is in our packet Mark parents should be too and it is it includes the question you asked him right not just the answer so just copy the text from the question into this thing we don't need to keep refining it every freaking time we ask it all right so boom shock a lot of that at some point I will put that in unless somebody that's going to do it right now I'll put that in here and then maybe you see after seeing his interest in contact it was interesting to set up an interview everybody should be interviewing guests for the interviews 20 minutes to get a little three for hours or any discussion on any of those things sorry said again she's just going through the process and trying to get a sense whether we're okay with it so she's gone through one through six which is now one through seven now and the document I am now working from is called interview protocol draft 225 19 and 419 and it's in today's packet even today's packet yes thank you so let's take a pause and shift to them it is literally that same document saved as this and so now we don't go back anymore to February 25th and now we're here now we're in real time over here in today's in today's packet oh for oh okay yeah today's packet all right so then so now we no longer have to go back to February 25th this issue all right so okay so on the 311 decision tree because I'm down below council president isn't on it anymore right we did remove that yet yes yes so we should remove that from here too right so if I open this some word and make changes to it and you don't open it more and you just edit it I wondered about that too how does all that work magically there should be some same things so that people can't just go in and edit but but but we actually want to be able to but yet we don't want to overlay each other we can all edit together right so I think if we just have it all open this way but if one of us actually fully opens in words so you could actually see the bloody track changes which would actually be useful as much as I hate track changes in this version but we can see our our words show up what did you just add Darcy I just check out the council president of down below so two two roman numeral two yeah item two oh so it didn't go off yours no I don't have anything on my menu so I don't know what you're doing the weather refresh are you an interview protocol drafted with the 225 and the 4-1 I don't think she is no that's why oh okay so let's go back to today's packet today's packet okay and open that document and again you're asking I just want to be clear on what you're going to be asking so um this is what I had is it could one of us go over to their meetings and I'm assuming that's only the president advisory committee because we don't know all the cpo's have meetings I'm uncomfortable with that I I I understand the the town manager's concern it's really there's the separation here so you may go ahead and do this if you wish but I'm uncomfortable with asking him if one of us whoever that may be can be present at an RAC meeting though apparently it's it's a public meeting right so so that's a non-issue we can be there if we want to be and if people want to go they can go the cpo's don't they do meet apparently but what they that's a meeting between them and paul I guess it's a staff meeting right it's not a public meeting so I think we should you know I don't see any reason for us to be present at those meetings you can let me just request that so they're gonna I think so we just like to know what they're doing so cpo's have to write regular reports oh okay will be sent to us all right that may be sufficient we could so we could just ask if there's someone they could check in with us well maybe the reports will do I mean they have a lot on their plate and they're taking this on in addition to their regular duties so this is an and they seem to be eager about it and so forth so maybe reports will be sufficient for the time being if we feel I guess over time that we're really not getting much and we're not getting their reports I'm very helpful then I guess we could say could you please come and see us but maybe we should allow them some space you know they seem to be doing good work they seem to be excited about it maybe we just lay low for a bit and see what's going on not even ask them to say well we want you to come once a month as long as reports if we get any reports from them let's let it go for a couple months and see how it goes and then if we feel that we're not getting enough information and we feel like we're out of the loop and we don't know what's going on and we're in the dark then I guess we could ask them to come and see us but I don't know what do you think do you yeah I mean I feel that they've already told you they've already told you right so why are we going back again right yeah and I will see the reason to push at the moment so I guess the bigger the bigger question coming then is right that's right communication right so plan for and to prove people to come to to residents to come to public hearings and forms that's something that's been brought up by the president to myself the finance committee has closed now when I asked Paul about this he said trying to get residents to come to these is not should not be our job but it should be the job of staff so this is what I'm going to bring up to you about about this is that so when you think about planning a form or you think about planning special meetings like hearings like finance is doing right and we have the we have two at least a minimum two public forms that we have to hold for the budget and now escaping the school committee I think it's the capital plan yes the capital plan yep so what I did was I don't know if you guys have this or I don't know I don't think I put it in but I don't know what it's all about yeah right I have them yeah as to how to plan for a district meeting our office hours and as I go through this I feel like this sort of covers so one is call 413-259-302 or email voice-to-j at hangersmash.gov I'm Andrea hangersmash.gov to secure a meeting space so that seems like a logical my case being that I think that this is not setting up a public hearing or advertising for a public hearing or a form could could be done in a similar way I don't know that I would change this is what I've posed to you so that you would follow the guidelines for a district meeting or office hours for a hearing or and the only things that I changed was we're not sharing it so who who you're you're suggesting that for so much more so here's my question so one of the things that people are saying could be our role is if somebody wants to have a forum or they want to have a hearing right so say finance committee or one of the two forums that town council self has to hold but the president is in charge of that of those right then they need to do all the same things that we would need to do of who we're doing a district meeting you have to get a room and you have to find a room right and that isn't something that staff is already doing well that's what I'm saying is that if you look at that list right there mine what I'm posing to you is that the guidelines for that except for a few things that I've changed could also be the guidelines for I'm gonna for us for setting up a hearing yeah but I just need to be us I what I think is that that this could be as Paul said this could be his staff which also needs community participation officers would be doing this because it seems like it makes more sense to me because except for on there I believe I added when you're trying to reserve a room you could ask for if you need microphones and the right is this set up in a room you would ask for microphones you could ask for powerpoint right so isn't this isn't something that they would just normally do anyway right it hasn't been publicly stated that they do this there is there is not a the CPO's do it right right I wanted to send an email with just a few changes to say to CPO's the town manager it seems to me and for talking with Paul who said that he felt that this was should be also under the purview of the CPO's well it's not clear what this is now okay so you're talking about setting up so there's two things one is setting up and organizing right public hearing well we've never right yeah or forum well never had a public hearing yet correct we've never had a public hearing and those are set by the council right the council's better yes the council and the president I assume does this that's what's in the charter right it's been suggested to me by finance committee and also by the yeah that they believe that it is OCA's responsibility to advertise for these special type meetings and it's up to us to get presidents to come in what Paul said is he does not feel that that's up to us that actually all of the things that the community participation officers do to advertise for and bring people in for things like district meetings should be sufficient and the same right which is posting it on the website right all those things that are posting the meeting posting it on the website you can post it on individual counselors pages some of the suggestions were that we could ask for an outside vote and more of which we would post posters or that we could have each counselor would find people in their district or we would to find people to put up posters in different districts I don't necessarily know that I see myself running now I think this is getting down to the level of staff and sort of you know I thought our job was really oversight just trying to make sure that first of all nobody knows who's had a district meeting yet or not I mean as a group so it'd be nice if the council actually knew we do have a council calendar now right so I guess you go to council calendar and you can look at it but it might be useful to just have a report at some point or some kind of at every council meeting said here's what's been happening on the outreach front you know there's been these district meetings and da da da da but maybe you're thinking oh as long as it's available on the calendar people can go and find out what's going on so we don't need to do sort of oversight in that sense that's taken care of by the calendar do we need to coordinate do we need to make sure that these meetings are not all happening from the same weekend or the same month or whatever do we need to worry about that who oversees the sort of overall coordination of district meetings and they put it in the council calendar so and they are sensitive to would they raise a flag if they felt like you know A somebody's not having them or B they're all turning out to be on the same month they're all on the same weekend there is no is that something we should be worried about but well so here's the thing so if you want to post an event we'll meet right now those who have to submit an agenda and you have to submit this event that's true Jennifer right go through Jennifer all those things go through her and there isn't a council calendar with which we can communicate with each other right so George you're saying I'm going to have one this Sunday I'm going to have a district meeting this Sunday when I go because I also thought this would be a great weekend me to have one I don't see that you are also running calendar might be perfect and I believe that what is expected is that councilors have enough common sense to not you know put all of our meetings on the same day well I just think counselors have so much they're doing that yeah but you're right I mean just just pay attention I mean that is one of the things is that you know how to help counselors communicate with each other better if there is something that you feel like counselors should be doing in addition to put hosting things on the calendar then we could bring up the fact that we think that that counselors that maybe that counselors would report together from certain districts what they did either for office hours or for district meetings and you could even say they should report out on what you're planning on doing in the next three months two months if applicable do you think that that's a an extra standard to do this? I think that's a good idea actually it probably would be good also to have like an agenda item at one meeting where we just have you know a half an hour or two for each counselor to say this is how my district meetings have been going and these are the things that have worked these are the things that haven't worked because I don't know how else we can have that discussion because we can't we have a place for counselor comments at the end of the meeting so in theory one could always use that as a way of doing that but you're thinking making it a permanent or something like that our meetings are a little kind of a coincidence I know nobody wants to hear it when we get to them no by that point nobody wants to hear it but our meetings should have an an hour no no no I think that you know maybe 10 minutes for each even 10 minutes even 10 minutes is 130 minutes counselor even to switch off however I know also in the district right you don't want to hear about the district meetings George well no I just no I just I'm just saying I think George was wondering about and this is something it's just not like our meetings are five and a half hours having us to communicate with each other so if you think that would be something that would be helpful that is something that we could ask about if you think that the calendar probably isn't enough but we need to sort of be I'm just talking in a sense as you are and I think all of us are trying what is our job and I don't want us to be involved in you know putting up posters and you know that kind of stuff do you don't want to scout your district for that I just no that's what I do in my district but it's not the job of this committee to do the job for the council I mean people I don't have office hours for instance and I'm not going to have office hours I don't think that we're going to insist that everybody have office hours I do other things so but I guess the question is do we want to try at least have a sense of as a this subcommittee or this this larger committee do we want to have a feel for what's working what isn't what's being done what isn't or we just kind of maybe right now we just let a thousand flowers bloom and we'll see what happens that's fine but it sounds from the charge we were given outreach communications in particular that we sort of are supposed to be kind of paying attention in a broad way to what's happening and there are you go to the calendar you can by word of mouth people learn oh Ryan's got a newsletter somebody else does office hours somebody else does this somebody else does that but there's no do we need to as a this group do we need to sort of just put that all in one place for ourselves to get a sense of how things are going so just so we have a feel for how things are going or do we need to say as long as things are happening fine you know it's we want to ask you to report to this could be well nobody can get a comment this time so no no no just we could just have them report by email we could have a little survey for them to fill out okay so what are what are your upcoming dates what what are your past dates what you know what are the elements could you give us a sample agenda for your meeting so that we can all take a look at it and you know what's who have you had as your guests what's worked and what hasn't and and I think people would would be glad to feel sensing like that I think you would have all the counselors and you probably thought about selecting me in the end of this year or next year or three years to be able to leave some kind of brief guidelines and procedures and how it's for our other counselors I mean I think that where everything we do is it's not so that would would that be deliberation or would that just be procedural you know like just it seems to me like it's not deliberation on any particular count issue before the council or anything right I don't think so I mean I think it would be if we if this subcommittee wanted to come up with the you know finalize an idea and then come up with say a a questionnaire stated I don't know it could even just be said simply to the chair of the committee and then the chair will report out well here we're thinking of counselors I think we're thinking of the 13 counselors and what they are doing in terms of outreach and communications what literally what they are doing and secondly if they want what success or what advice or what you know what's working and what hasn't yeah is that something we want to do a survey monkey or a google form or something like that people could could fill out a survey the google survey and how important is it for the council to have sort of like a broad picture of what at the moment at some given time say in two months or whatever and this is what is happening on the outreach communications front in terms of this is how many district meetings have been held this is how many office hours are being held this is how many you know newsletters whatever I mean just you know just a general statement of where we stand that would be something I would think we could provide as a service to the council if we want to take it on the Hampshire because that would be interested in that that story like maybe what how how is the new council functioning as far as you know outreach and communication yeah and like those are fulfilling its promise of public participation right it's also then it's also then as we brought up before just something to think about if we are seeing our role as sort of gathering information all right being a committee that sort of keeps an eye on you know a timeline you know there's so many forms have to be you know by the time council that could be held and certainly within a year's time like those kinds of things should we be just should we have a timeline for some of those things do you want to establish that and then do we want to just maybe check in ask the RIC and free participation officers if they could report out either to I mean I'm going to guess to us or or no you chose this but yeah I mean do we want to have a sense of what like broad out which is or do we want to just concern ourselves with town councils yeah it is focused on town council which seems appropriate and I think at some level we should be providing some sort of overview or picture occasionally a snapshot of what is happening and what people think is working and what isn't and she said to how successful have we been in this first six months or whatever and actually getting people engaged involved in terms of we as a council how well are we communicating we as a council how well are we doing outreach however we define outreach certainly that would include district meetings public forums office hours I think it also includes but this is a whole another area of what we do individually in terms of reaching to I mean I go to a lot of groups and talk to people about what we're doing I consider that an important task a job that I'm supposed to do I'm particularly working with students but I'll talk to anybody and I'm sure others are doing the same thing but there's no list or record of that I mean I keep a record of what I do but you know it would it be worthwhile or valuable for people to know you know where councillors have been going and who they've been talking to as a as a sort of outreach function or is that you know and so councillors would report I mean I would report I would write down on a piece of paper or on a form or whatever I'd say okay in the past month or two these are you know I've talked to Interfraternity Council I've talked to Panhellenic Council I've talked to Massburg I've talked to the Union Mass Democrats I've talked to this neighborhood association I've talked to that neighborhood association you know so you list it in part simply to if someone says you know you guys really don't you know reach out you don't talk to anybody well look here's a list of you know 30 outreaches that happened by various councillors what we would be the sort of repository or sort of the clearing house for this so that we could at some point in five months six months whatever be able to give data be able to give actual factual data this is how many public you know this is how how many were held this is how many newsletters there are this is how many you know district meetings have been this is how many office hours have been held and you know just that seems to be important I agree and it just and that would be our job so our charges one communications outreach aid advice to town council on matter of fact to district meetings section 2.7 public forums section 2.13 and 5.3 and other strategies to broaden participation ensure regular and transparent communication and outreach to residents of Gamers so I think being a repository of especially this first year what people of councillors are doing and what sort of their sense of what is working and what isn't working I think would be great and I also think that it might be within our charge to then maybe could or it would be for us to maybe make a small packet for councillors going forward that gives them some you know some of the guidelines that we were given by the committee participation officers and then some maybe some guidelines that maybe would be or tips that we have you know seen work in the past you know I mean year or two years mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm I'm just thinking that if you're having a structure is definitely helpful I mean none of us have a structure to begin with we're all finding our way mm-hmm I just think that as we're finding a structure we might not pass things on to next councillors just so that they would be somewhat up and running or have an idea instead of starting to construct so there's best practices which we could work on mm-hmm and then there's just data there's just you know there's two different things just here's what's been happening mm-hmm and here are some best practices for going forward which we may not know until the end of the year now we're here right but we're not right honestly you know there's no you know we're off finding things out by trial and error or we haven't been to a whole lot of process we haven't been to you know so maybe one step would be concretely would be for this subcommittee to consider reaching out to all new councillors by email and saying you know we one of the things we think we should be doing is just keeping a some kind of what tab or some kind of account of outreach that's been going on on the council since we've been created in December so it's asking them to do something which I know myself it's like mm-hmm but could you begin to assemble a list of some of the you know things tell us your office hours if you had district meetings when and where at this point we're just collecting data we're not interested in the agendas we're not interested in the other we just want to know what are things you've been doing in terms of outreach is that something that we should add to the list to do list for other councillors would that be useful with the thought that eventually we would we would tabulate this and present it to them and say here's a record of what you've been doing over the last you know six months and also a record we could then share with the public and say you know if you have a question here's what we've been doing mm-hmm and so my directors suggested that form which some might be so much easier checking out boxes I think this is going to be unfortunately people really have to sit down and list you know I've talked to this this this this this I have that that is the form well the advantage to doing it in a with a you know survey monkey or google survey is that the the result comes out on a spreadsheet mm-hmm that people can look at it's easier to you know to get the result is easier to manage then if you just how we shape if you just got you know like 13 emails lists the right yeah you'd have to go through and organize that I understand mm-hmm right right right mm-hmm but would there be places that you don't know what I thought? well a task for the subcommittee then painfully would be because who needs another task but would be to construct something like this mm-hmm yeah to construct the document that you feel would be mm-hmm provide sufficient data useful data mm-hmm and that would take a little bit of time for some of us to figure out I guess I could do that I'm that's not that hard okay and you give us something like that to look at and we could that would be great and then we can refine it and if we're satisfied with it then we have something we can actually send out that's when we're ready yeah we can add I mean we can just look at a draft and figure out what we want to add and we'll take exactly mm-hmm but mm-hmm how about like in two weeks or something like that that'd be fantastic mm-hmm mm-hmm we didn't bring up but the previous meeting that we wanted I want to meet next week oh I'm sorry what do you mean next week yeah doesn't want to make sure oh no next week we have it's the week after done oh no no I messed up oh oh we are meeting next week yeah and then we can talk about if people have time okay you have something next week is okay no I just I just feel like we gotta meet every week I have just the opposite feeling but I'm sorry I think your your feeling is the right feeling mine is the wrong feeling yeah but last week when we didn't meet ah I know it's so good it's like snow day it's a snow day I love it it's terrible but you don't it's wonderful all at the same time okay so Darcy is was willing to sort of we're always not sorry it's been willing to sort of construct this survey monkey thing and we'll look at it next time and that could be useful for us in going forward anything else do you want me so we were kind of talking about the other thing that I I think is not is hanging in the air and has not been resolved is how to set up the the forums and I was gonna call it here I don't know so whatever we're calling special meetings they're being called by finance committee and you feel that this is something that we should be worried about rather than just send it over to all you were I don't I don't I but I think there's a question out there that has been posed by the council president and also by the finance committee we take care of them already today is that you know is this interoperative both setting them up and the bigger part is bringing residents in and do not think and I have talked to Paul Paul does not think that is their job so what I would like to do is I've put a couple changes on that that just it all it does is just add like you could ask for a projector could ask for micro balls you could ask for a micro ball I think we could just tell them that we're not doing it unless someone can convince us that somehow it really is our task so what I would ask then as I would probably send it to Paul I guess I would ask Paul but then C.C. and Lynn and C.P.O.s that I this is we don't feel like these things are brought up to us we don't feel like this is in our purview could you set up a how-to plan for forums and hearings or whatever and I would figure out whether I'm writing on that can you do a how-to and send it to all of us and we'd like to make it very plain so the question is officially answered by Paul and C.P.O.s but also with Paul that this is not advertising bringing people residents in to these special meetings is not the extra added responsibility of Volca hmm right and yeah and they can just you know give give suggestions to all the counselors about what they could put on social media or whatever I'm sorry thank you fellas thank you I would like before we end I would like it if our committee could communicate with Paul about the whole neighborhood cleanup issue because that email that we got from Paul directly asking us to scout our neighborhoods for trash really through me you know I felt like maybe this is a really good idea but I felt it felt odd to me for us to be getting that directly from the town manager rather than from either Lynn or from I actually think it should have come from Volca so here's the things coming back to who works for me who hasn't so what has been established I feel and then we just we want to make it happen since this is established in writing just but it's there it's not it'll make it very clear that what I believe is being said and we need to have this in policy or written down the events participation of it I believe is being said is that community participation officers work for the town manager and that all of their outreach including things this trash pickup day is theirs and theirs for recruiting new people for town manager appointments they do not have anything to they help individual counsel to see if the hour helps individual counsels and they help to bring in people for pause appointments and they're helping to establish a broader community I think what we've been told is that that's their bubble and it's not our bubble I think that we really need that clarified we need to really know like what that distinction is so we decided to do an event do we do an event ourselves open up for town council things and then do we let them know I mean to me that's the thing that's more confusing well I just feel like we're all reaching out to members of the community and if if the town manager wants us to participate in the district cleanup I guess that's fine but it seems it needs to be a more holistic process it needs he needs to come he did come to our last meeting and bring it up but there was no like agreement that that we would then you know like you know convey to the rest of the council what we're doing because we're the outreach people for the council it just feels like we were left out of that loop and it didn't feel good when I got that and it was like oh wait a minute so we need to we really need to really clarify what's being said where certain purviews start and end because my feeling for what was said was that and this is this is the whole question that I have in general is do is it OVA's job to plan events and to do certain procedures as town councils outreach to the community mm-hmm are we completely separate right so that you know they're doing their town manager thing and then they can invite us is it being made clear or you need to make it clear are we tagging along on things that they do or are people seeing is OVA's responsibility to hold these kind of events and to come with our own outreach strategies that are completely separate from that that's what I need to clarify because for me it seems like what was being said is we're completely separate and I feel that I'm I need the clarification are we completely separate how we want to go with that but I that for me that's a big question so you're sort of saying if that we need to be working together to to it needs to be made clear if we're just like working parallel or whether we are helping each other do or are different tasks and seems very clear to me that we should be doing both you know we should be working together and collaborating so I think that we could express that to the town manager I think that's what he was looking for with this event but it came obviously quickly and it came you know I think someone Kelvin came up with a good idea or an idea that Paul's had experience with and I think one of the CPO's had experience with and they thought this is a great idea this is a way to get people involved and then they said and let's let's get the town counselors involved so it that's how it happened and I think you know that's a good thing but there's still this this confusion that we're going to have to resolve but at this event I think was not designed to sort of him telling us what to do is here's this idea this is what we're going to do we think it's a great idea for the community can you help us by doing X, Y, and Z and in my case I'm not sure I'll get around to going through my neighborhood and making lists of trash but I will no but maybe I will but I've already started looking I'm sort of making notes in my head so but I didn't see it as an order or some kind of usurping of power I just thought they got this great idea they're going to run with it and this is a way we could help so I will try to help if I can and I'll try to show up on the day because I think it's a great thing but going forward and maybe it'll become an annual thing I'm not so much worried about I don't think it was an attempt to sort of tell us what to do it was just you know cooperate with us collaborate with us if you can and if you can't you can't we should have been looked at though well yeah this is a process yeah we're all it's all new it's all new the process question that we're all learning that we need to lay down and that's what I'm going to do what the spheres are right so that it doesn't it doesn't seem weird or okay I think yes we have one action item and my survey if you would and it's that'd be great if you can do that it'd be great and then we'll look at it and talk about it and that's in two weeks not next week so that's actually three weeks then because I think in this second week is Patriots Day right so next week we meet but the following week is Patriots Day so it looks like it's three weeks unless we decide to meet that week not a Patriots Day for God's sake okay we have to we have to move I'm meeting okay well it's possible it could happen it could happen now you're in there get on I can see your little flag uh-oh danger danger so now delete that line could it show up yes it did now there are only four items there two members of OCA should be one OCA designee OCA designee OCA designee is that what you called it in the vote yes oh I thought we said chip no it could be we could change it it can be any one we voted what was the vote to designate the chair but it could be what OCA designee it's the OCA designee which in this case so the process is OCA designee and we recently voted that that OCA designee is the chair whereas in the future they could say that OCA designee could be perhaps George and so we the chair we voted that the chair should just be for this process for the time being for the time being but we couldn't be any time if our chair comes back and says I don't want to do this so I'm gonna say this I had to have you're gonna be busy I don't know you got you got the numbers from Paul about how many people vote five it's a lot could have been more it's more than I expected wait when did we find out this number I asked Paul personally Jesus what is this thing called process around here but he had said he'd already sold that so what you let me just make something I need to be able to spec it so I'm not saying believe it or not I'm not saying I'm right I'm saying we need to make thoughtful decisions what we're saying is the case so in the past it has always been true that we never told anyone how many people applied for a particular thing as soon as we say that you're now going to have the newspaper calling up Paul and saying how many people applied for finance committee and then he'll call the newspaper but he won't have told the entire town council this is not a good position to be in I just reminded them a couple until like method of recording where the where the town manager says these are the three names I'm giving you there were 25 names all together if we start doing this this way then it's going to be a free for all so we need to think about if we're going to continue that because it's not new it would be a continuation of the music but if we're just going to say oh who cares tell the newspaper every time they call how many people applied that feels really uneasy to me because that telling the newspaper is not telling the council and I think if anybody if anything the council should know more than the newspaper so the council should know before the newspaper right and the way the council would find out is by getting the demographic report from either this body because we're putting forward names for planning board and we're saying I don't think the desire for the number was motivated by any it's just we just for curious but I asked specifically because I was like we needed timeline and that and just just practice we have cushion how many interviews right we have cushion if you come back and you say the only people who have applied for ZVA are those currently on the ZVA right I just but in the future I'm asking personally just don't report the number it so because we're and don't report it to the rest of the town council either because we're not ready for that yet but that will be part of it that would be part of our report so we can count some secretly pass a note around no because that would be a public document then then you've just now created a public document but you could ask me after this meeting but but you shouldn't but you shouldn't because the only reason you're finding that out is to help us understand the interview process because how much time we need for interview in a position of knowing that yet as a group just as you apparently voted when I was up here that you didn't want to see the CAFs until after you from the question and so you know we're staying trying to keep the wall there you know and then take it down but brick I suppose as we get further along in the process so interview protocol so OK does it need the meeting at their discretion I made that change right that manager committee is on process yes adopted you're probably the wrong if you have to be in today's extended packet so you're not on this document no there's still there's still a new version in today's meeting the title has to have we are having so much fun oh god who wrote multiple member body a blue a purple black next how long do you want to argue exactly not long trust me not long one thing I discovered in reading the lawyers report on the open meeting you're there she's gonna be saying we shouldn't be sending minutes around for people to review ma'am that doesn't make sense but yes because there's there's a chance of an expression of opinion except minutes aren't supposed to be expressions of opinion as before just a record of what was the chance fine I hear you all right you inserted multiple member body committee chair yes because it's like committee chair of what I know but and we can rephrase it you can come up with a better phrase what I'm trying to say is no but the committee what what committee chair the oca committee chair whatever any free committee chair relevant committee chair you say relevant committee chair you know appropriate this item too okay that where it says under who is present at your discretion the designee may include top manager is available relevant committee chair or just I mean I don't care okay if you like that better I'm gonna say people care I'll change it yeah relevant committee chair or just committee chair I mean it's pretty obvious it would be the committee that we're dealing with no that's why I changed it because it's not that obvious you'd be surprised just like on charge documents I don't like when they say later in them charge committee committee committee because I want to be able to copy and change that I want it to say finance committee and I want it to say whatever committee change that thing sound but I got something I wanted to say so exciting all right that's it anything else designee who may at their discretion include relevant committee chair if available top manager if available staff liaison okay okay all right next we're on the three all members of the interview team need to follow this protocol not just oca designee so that needs to change because there are all members there's just all four so and they thought here we got to get number two needs to be added the first one I think is okay does time commitment almost as far as my committee needs maybe a little bit of that it's the fact that okay so most of these questions are have you had any experience that they're mostly questions the oca designee is gonna ask but the second one is to require that the committee chair staff liaison do something what if none of those people are there how can we effectively describe in less words than I would normally do is George that says why don't we just say describe what committee does why don't we just do that so we just take all that out rather than say who who's doing it describe what committee does time commitment homework required when the committee needs a major issues coming up without being meeting which we'll figure out a way to phrase but that way this is the oca designee is doing this or the oca designee is turning to Nate Molloy it happens to be sitting there or Nate Molloy is not there and you know that may be the town manager rather than a signing role or the oca designee will have had to do a bunch more homework because they know that they're not gonna have a backup somewhere somewhere it seems like the charge will help we should mention the charge that they should have there available that is a very good point that should be specifically any other relevant committee document do we need to spell that out I think the charge and like I don't know like say if it was the housing committee and the housing production plan was hot off the process push it in but I mean these are only 20 minute interviews they need to have a lot of time with the charge with the very late but so but here we're trying to tell the designee how to do that I mean it's getting into the weeds the charge really okay this is partly this partly reflects back to the conversation that we had before about kind of quizzing them as to like do you have any idea what you're applying for um I don't think you've ever been to any meetings etc so provide the charge yeah describe it to many it seems a little late for them like in one those interested to set up the interview could you could provide a copy of the charge and we'll move it to the web page and they could be like oh good we're helping them it's good we're helping them turn on so so put it up in front good describe remove two base three two okay so you're gonna want to bring the copy to the charge with you anyway to the meeting that's the other thing it's one thing to email to the person but you're not gonna be sitting there in 20 minutes so you're gonna walk in when you walk in you're gonna have a copy of the CAF and you're gonna have okay so then we can just change it to describe what can be drop it to me does time commitment go back to that because I just said that there's already a CAF and charge on the table this person's but is it clear that it's that person's CAF not everybody's CAF yeah she is it is it's okay it's good it's good the reason that I didn't write it there I'm sorry I was battling about that earlier when we were trying to fix something is that the reason we don't write that there is because if it turns out that they're not there so they bail or something happens they're not available whatever literally it's it could be just you all right you have to it could be just you in which case you'd be like oh shit I expected them to tell me this so hopefully they would give you enough notice that they could tell you what they would have said so how do we without how do we say the major because people liked the idea of major issues coming up but then didn't like the idea of making it so say it was back in the day one Morning's Plum Street was coming up right we wanted to be like do you have any idea that Morning's Plum Street is happening but on the other hand we don't want you to try and commit to what you think about Morning's Plum Street because you're the committee not you are there votes that we were going to take today we just want to make sure that we pass enough time so are the votes you're referring to Darcy the thing under consider change to our charge good that's four I'm thinking please there's Ena okay so these are proposals that we're not necessarily in fact these are all proposed by the president who wrote the charge in the first place well when you say we're taking votes it's like I mean there's always the question of like why do we want to do this because we're trying to be responsive to the president's consent as opposed to this was any of the power I'm never to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be what we should be looking at Sarah sounds like from what you said is we should be looking at the actual report the draft report more so than and perhaps side by side with the agenda so so we're just so finance committee right this is not yes it is so so I'm in the software position because I'm on rules so start seeing and this was brought this was referred to rules by the council that she'll recall and then the idea was that rules would get a crack at it first and then I thought the idea was then Oka would get a crack at it but so rules did talk about the existence happened and no mention was made of it during the the cap town council meeting that was eight days later after that meeting so it was never discussed however it was reported by some rules members who are finance committee to the finance committee and also by the president who was also who was there for the rules meeting and the finance committee meeting which is part of the finance committee what was discussed at rules so finance committee knows more about what happened than this body does yes so that did not work out overnight so that did not work out right so also that written report has not yet been finished by me which is supposed to be in tonight's packet for the entire town council reporting out what we decided which was maybe Darcy could say it faster that I could we decided that the finance committee could do the we could the finance committee would take from OCA the responsibility of interviewing candidates for resident non-voting residents of the finance committee and of then choosing them bringing them back to the finance committee to choose in other words they would set up a process they said they would base it on our could basically take that piece away so first thing is that we say so there's nothing to take so I guess I'm a little curious because the wording of this is though on taking resident appointments to finance committee out of our charge but there's not out of charge if you have it that way take out of our charge technically doesn't it says make recommendations to the town council reminding regarding all appointments by the town council so are we we're not taking anything out are you saying we're voting to add add to it that this is acceptable we're another one I'm saying we're not taking anything out of our charge we're adding language to the charge that says except for correct is that what we're looking to do right now well so if I mean Sarah wrote up just like us a way to break the vote not an opinion as to whether or not that should be the vote right in her report for tonight so for example it's a to or not to remove from its charge recommendation regarding resident appointments to finance right that it doesn't say we could we should we should alter that phrasing in the report there's nothing to take references out of the charge town council appointments which we currently believe the resident members to be town council appointments and if they're town council appointments then they belong to us they are belong to us so we're not arguing to take anything out of our charge we're actually arguing add language to our charge to take something out of our no no the only person who's arguing that is no no no that's what this committee or right I'm I'm talking specifically about this language here yeah so we're gonna fix that right okay because you can't remove something that's not there right that's my first to okay so we actually if we're gonna if we do approve this we're actually adding to the charge the charge right now to remove from the charge well there is if if we agree with rules what what looking at this chart what are we actually going to remove we're going to we make recommendations town council regarding all appointments by the town council right that's what we currently do if we agree that finance committee should take that away from us then we need to change our charge if we don't agree we don't need to change into what that's what I'm saying we're not removing any language if we add any language if we agreed with them we would change the charge and say we make recommendations to the town council regarding all appointments by the town council except for right so that means we're not removing anything any language with the charge we're adding to the charge that's a different way I'm sorry I realized we're on we're saying the same thing around different ways yes I get it I get it now okay I'm talking about the physical language in our charge right right I'm saying if we if we approve this we're editing the charge not to remove anything but to add language that's best of us okay so that was sorry that was more confusing but I needed to make it that's true recommendations to the town council regarding all so what should the motion be then by the town council now so the question is whether or not foundations to the town to modify if we were agreeing to do this which no one is saying that we are at this point is to is to modify Sarah's report right now if you're trying to follow modify its charge recommendation to the town council regarding all the wording is bad but it's currently says regarding all appointments to the town council to clarify to clarify that I mean that I mean it's wrong but but that's the general idea is that it says but to charge currently says all appointments by the town council we're saying if we agree with what rules agreed to and what the finance committee seems to want that we okay would say well if you're going to we agree with you there we would say we would clarify that statement in our charge to set not voting as the members of the finance committee are not recommended by the board we could just say it's just not that much and then wherever they go how do we feel about this how do we feel about this yeah okay I have to is there a motion the motion hasn't been made of it's just been drafted so that we know what so with respect to also and I don't know that you know that this this is the problem with everything right if I don't I wasn't there so I don't know the discussion so for me if I'm just saying that you all already debated but it seems to me very strange that finance committee would choose its own members which is a luxury that we give I would actually love to say Mark parent you're in charge you choose your new zba members and then you don't have to do any interviews and you can take a nap right and so to me it's a really strange thing I also think it's interesting there's also a level of curiosity I have about the debate given that three of the two two of the members of the rules committee are on three is it to two but I am feeling that was probably at the meeting yes who also so the president this is a recommendation from the president who also serves on finance and so that seems to me an interesting dynamic on I'm interesting dynamic let's go with that I'm not I'm not quite sure why this makes any we are charged with appointments to the town council that we would make a special carve out for finance committee it seems to make this committee it gives this committee a strange status that we are giving to no other committee so I personally would love a good so it would be I think to modify it's modified it's modified the charge that's currently specifies recommendations to the town Oka makes recommendations to the town council regarding all appointments by the town council charter section 2.9 to clarify that non-voting resident members of the finance committee are not recommended to the town council no it's like we can we have to fix this and then we can always just email the language yeah okay that's two okay it's modified yeah but at the moment we're not there yet committee charge trying to show is that it's changed that recommendations to the town council regarding all appointments by the town council to clarify being resident members of the finance committee are not recommended what if we simply don't act on this if we just we should why we worry about wearing this since nobody I mean just if we decide what to act on I mean nothing happens it's right no they're going to go ahead and do it is this can I ask you a question no they can't we have a charge a charge says we have control so if we don't can I ask you a question to rural people is this being brought forward separate from the rural package for town council to go on or will this be brought forward as part of an overall rural package that we so the timing is such that this needs to be decided before the package gets brought forward so just like we had a recommendation on front of a dress and we had a recommendation on public agenda order we the charge says there will be a rule established about this particular issue about rules committee needs to break a recommendation to the town council as to what that rule should be and the town council needs to adopt that rule I would argue the town council does not need to adopt that rule tonight I would argue that my report is very likely to say since it hasn't done yet that the rules committee recommend that this that the town council hear from in addition to the rules vote which I will have to report on that they hear from OK and then they make a decision as to what the rules should be and that's why we're doing this so that OKA has a statement to provide yeah populated by members of another committee then and that committee is there's a conflict there you know so I don't know how to deal with that exactly I think we should go we do it in very awkward position so so Darcy can speak to what she had said I voted yes and the reason I voted yes was obviously because I wanted to sell OKA down the river and the reason I voted yes was because it was clear I was going to be out of it and as a rules member I could not I didn't feel like I could argue I wanted to argue for OKA from OKA's point of view I didn't want to argue at rules from OKA's point of view unfortunately I think finance committee members who were there arguing in finance committee's point of view so it's always like you said how do you how do you do this but from a rule standpoint I was glad to hear that they were at least willing to not just make up their own process but to adopt but to adopt OKA's process which of course they didn't know anything about because luckily luckily no one's really intending any of them any of the non-resident I mean based on what's what we've been told by the president et cetera is that no one's expecting the non-resident the resident non-voting members to be in place prior to July 1st so the timing is not critical however I would argue that if OKA does not weigh in on this and say no wait stop that in fact it is just the finance committee for all I know is scheduling interviews right now right and they I noticed they didn't put that I was expecting that was going to be in there we got it charged and it is for tonight so right let's let's have a motion yeah all right who's you're cracking the web today I like that so we could either make that motion or we could try and make the opposite motion that says it stays the same but I think it might actually be weirdly sensible to do this sort of do the negative so that people understand exactly what we meant rather than saying we vote to continue that our charge says what it says now and they're like so that's why I would so you just made that you made that motion and I'll second it and so of course we do have a motion and you made it and seconded it Sarah made it Sarah made it Sarah made it Sarah made it myself oh so we have our own rules everyone else is making up their own rules so that's right just get used to it and I was also told that the reason oh I think the only thing I can add is that when I said specifically the example of planning board appointment for members or ZBA appointment for members I was told that this was also for these and this was a unicorn and separate from other things is because in fact these members were non-voting and that somehow made it different okay so the motion is to remove it from our charge yes it's to modify our charge thank you so it's all those of you but yes it's weird it's weird to do it and kind of the negative like that but it that way it describes what it was so hey we got time but we got something done I like that she is cracking the way to be the stacker stop that job I moved to retain coordination of the annual review prep the town manager annual review process within the overcharge so you want to make it about I moved to retain the coordination keep this directly from my target right process of the town so this was a live request right I don't remember the rush now well I can try to make it I think the feeling is that the town manager affects obviously the entire council this body is focused on a specific set of tasks and she felt that it would be important to include I think she had in mind chairs of other committees rather than this particular body in other words to get greater diversity greater input a greater sense of a greater sense of that overall performance the town manager obviously the five of us do see him but others on other committees especially committee chairs would see him in a different context so I think that was her argument that she would prefer and think it would be better to have that diversity and scope that this committee could not provide for this particular task of town manager so I think my understanding I think it's a failure of understanding of what the words for the coordinating it was never going to be these five people who were reviewing the town manager it said coordinate she wrote it the annual review process of the town manager and I said from the very first time she brought this up when we were sitting in the tiny caribbean's room that of course it made sense that the president would be affiliated with this and of course it may and whoever we might come up with all sorts of levels of people there could be a 360 review as part of it et cetera it was never going to be that the town manager evaluation was going to be written by these five people it was going to be coordinated by this group and I still think it belongs being coordinated by this group I think it was also the comment at one point that it could be split off as an ad hoc thing right and I totally just I totally disagree with that as the basic premise I think the basic premise is coordination and then as the time gets closer entirely split off an ad hoc just like to work on the goals for the town council to work on the evaluation instrument for example split off an ad hoc group to work on that so that all 13 don't have to work on it so that all five of us on board but we're we're donating the process not especially are going to be doing well under some people's opinion that wouldn't happen so that's one of the reasons I want this body to coordinate so that we can have those discussions right yeah but I guess that hasn't been decided but it seems obvious to some of us but absolutely not all of us that all 13 councils would have some sec and so that doesn't mean that you couldn't have an ad hoc group of committee chairs that that work so I move to retain the coordination of the annual re-processed town manager within the overcharge I'll list a move two seconds okay darn nice second second is here already good all right well you know we're through discussion I guess is that it is there any more to be said I have my reservations about this I really think that this is something I would dearly love to hand off to a group and just let them worry about it for the entire year we have enough to do I don't feel strongly according to okay coordination but that means we're ultimately responsible for making sure that this thing gets done and I would prefer to have another group responsible for it and we just don't have to worry about that particular task it's this one particular task that's done every year and has to be done in a certain way and it should involve a certain set of people and every year we have to revisit it okay who gets to be on a fiscal and it means this committee chair or that committee chair et cetera et cetera et cetera you know I mean we can do it and I guess we'll do it but I just I have no problem giving this to an ad hoc call it what you will but another body of which maybe one or two of us will be members or maybe we won't but and that's their job and their responsibility and they have to meet the deadlines and they have to do all the paperwork blah blah blah blah because this is going to be as you know an enormously demanding task to be done right so that's my only concern I'm not going to die for it but you know I don't have a problem farming this off to somebody else I would ask that you hold on to all those concerns and as we move along that you vote for my question and then as we move along that you say now I can see where we can carve pieces off of this where this is not going to be our responsibility where we are just going to set up you know this part of it but the rest of it is going to be retained by other people I can tell you for a fact that what will happen if we don't retain some control of this process is we will have no control of this process meaning the council will have no control position until we get further along and then there might very well be that makes sense that people could carry forward in your subsequent but I think largely the first year we're going to have to get through it and then see because you're stuck with the old stuff that the town may have been being evaluated on selectory bias that whole process to unfold that it may well be that next year at this time George we're taking ourselves out of the process because it no longer needs to be coordinated by us in theory or some lesser amount of victims but I hear what you're saying in terms of the workload absolutely but if we're assigning these parts I mean I'm you know I think we assign these parts out and that's what we can or if we ask the president to assign us to let go of a group that has a few to me has a huge stake in the town manager evaluation based on the importance he brings us the rest of the council no matter what process we decide council-wide the rest of the council will never know the town council the town managers appointment process as well as we do and how effective or not was talked about in our report in that we're not we're not like the little sunshine club that's going and making the forums work for people no no well I was just saying that's a really accurate possibility but I will I want to say I a lot of what George said especially because I personally have no interest in me in a lot of them that said I would be incredibly hesitant to remove it from our chart without seeing a proposal what it would be and it sounds like the president's argument at current is I don't think it belongs in your committee so take it out and we'll figure out what it'll be like and she has some ideas and she's expressed some of it it's not a fully formed proposal and so I think for now at least we should say this stays in our committee if you want to if someone wants to bring forward a proposal of how we could better do a town manager evaluation then we can look at it and we can say you know what we will remove this but to remove it from our chart before knowing what it's going to be seems like a but it's it's a weird thing to do versus the motion is to retain to retain yeah because you were pushing I know it looks scarier when I saw the four votes were just described two different ways so the four bullet points are just descriptions of taking it out voting yes we'll work on the report so you guys going to go ahead you have you technically have a committee meeting that and I will just put this aside I could be a visitor at your committee if I don't talk how's that so we so that the minutes have been next turn so we have to adjourn at what time I moved to adjourn 11 17 11 17 11 17 thank you Evan for straightening us out on how to describe things way too soon yes okay so we adjourned at 11 17 and now you're going to have your 11 o'clock meeting in case the hordes of public going to come in for your 11 o'clock meeting it's actually everyone but me that's it's actually it's actually so Evan's all this document and one visitor and one her member of the public that's yes we do she has her post it's in the packet somewhere but I find the right package did you try any of that too I don't know if there's the agenda sure actually what's there if I don't see the agenda I just see a a post I just see the posting the posting the posting is there yeah all right I see okay the posting is there that's all that's in in the the file for this subcommittee oh outreach subcommittee I get it yeah no that's that's that's that's subcommittee in it two days ago I should be there and you can tell you what we did last time I suppose I don't know where I smoothed that it's pretty much a look it's pretty much it was an open discussion people just talking back and forth I caught some of it but not all of it by the means and there was no formal decisions made I try to I suppose yeah so there are other periods we could here so you said but then to me within all of the specifically that the CPO's are not they imagine that they've had oh absolutely the general manager how manager appointed he used the word only you know the general this general of the whole topic is that like the whole outreach participation is to set up the regular meeting lines for them to come to our meeting we asked that and so how do you get to know a greeting session right right but no agreement or no sense that on every other week or every I mean who could do it once a month so once a month we could ask them we could ask them once a month yeah I mean coming to being if we invited them just to come and report on what they've been up to they didn't feel like that was something that they wanted to do I mean there's they don't really want to be regular if there's something they don't want to touch base and see what they're up to yeah I mean who else is overseeing what they're doing so just good to she really was able to answer a lot of the questions and she was just a very too really easy so they know when they come to this little meeting and they're coming here to just tell us what they've been up to for the last month yeah and figure out ways that we can work together you know how we can help them how they can help us and Sarah's expressed some reservation or at least a thought that there might be attention between them reporting to the town manager who is their boss and them reporting to us and they might feel uneasy as to you know we're not giving them marching orders we're not telling them what to do we're not their boss we don't oversee them that's correct but we are sort of we'd like to know what success they've had and what outreach they've been doing and as a courtesy to us we would appreciate that once a month is what we're basically asking for them and if they have an objection to that I guess they'll tell us but I hope they wouldn't but so we've asked them like once a month just to check in with them as a courtesy and their meeting is being the RAC they have meetings too count me out on that one okay I mean I'm happy to hear I'm happy to have them report to me but I'm just I haven't invited up to their meeting but I have gone the RAC meetings they're that's right posted meetings I think we don't need to attend CPL meetings I think no it's just the RAC all right so the RAC so the RAC we're all about AAC resident advisory committee which is appointed by Paul and they work closely he works with them individually really more than at the committee I think is what his sense was I got them listening yeah he's still to feel okay I don't know what to do yeah if you want them to see that just think all the training we can offer to people on SharePoint right make a living I'm sorry I'm sorry right step one now you're in there kiddo I can see your little flag uh-oh danger danger so now delete that line did it show up yes now there are only four items there two members of OCA should be one OCA designee OCA designee OCA designee is that what you called it in the vote yes that's right oh I thought you said chair no no it could be we could change it it can be anyone we vote to make to designee the chair but it could we could what OCA designee you're explaining it to me right now it's the OCA designee which in this case so the process is OCA designee and you recently voted that that OCA designee was the chair whereas in future they could say that OCA designee might be somebody else George and so we the chair we voted that the chair should just be for this process for the time being for the time being but we couldn't they would change them anytime if our chair comes back and says I don't want to do this so I'm going to say this I don't want to do this I had to have because you're going to be busy yeah I know you got you got the numbers from Paul about how many people it's a lot could have been more it's more than I expected wait when did we find out this number I asked Paul personally Jesus what is this thing called process around here but he had said he'd already told there so what you let me just make something I need to reel this back in so I'm not saying believe it or not I'm not saying I'm right I'm saying we need to make thoughtful decisions when we say things like this so in the past it has always been true that we never told anyone how many people applied for a particular thing as soon as we say that you're now going to have the newspaper calling up Paul and saying how many people applied for finance committee and then he'll tell the newspaper but he won't have told the entire town council this is not a good position to be in I just reminded him a couple of meetings ago that because Margaret didn't know that because nobody bothered to tell her that we don't release the number of people who've applied for committees until we figure out the as yet undetermined demographic method of reporting where the where the town manager says these are the three names I'm giving you there were 25 names all together and X amount of them identified this if we start doing this this way then it's going to be a free for all so we need to think about if we're going to continue that because it's not new it would be a continuation of a new but if we're just going to say overcares tell the newspaper every time they call how many people applied that feels really uneasy to me because that telling the newspaper is not telling the council and I think if anybody if anything the council should know more than the newspaper so the council should know before the newspaper right and the way the council would find out is by getting the demographic report from either this body because we're putting forward names for planning board and we're saying there were X number of applicants here are the names we're recommending and here's how people identified in that pool but without all their names that's when they get that information is when we're making the recommendation not now I don't think the desire for the number was motivated by any it's just we just were curious I asked them specifically because I was like we needed timeline and that and just that gives you a we have cushioning right we have cushioned if you come back and you say the only people who have applied for ZBA are those currently out of the ZBA right I am but in the future I'm asking personally just don't report what the number is so because we're a camera and don't report it to the rest of the town council either because we're not ready for that yet but that will be part of that will be part of our report so we can secretly pass a note around among us no because that would be a public document then yes then you've just now created a public but you could ask me after this meeting but but you shouldn't but you shouldn't because the only reason you're finding that out is to help us understand the interview process because how much time we need for it in a position of knowing that yet as a group just as you apparently voted right when I wasn't here that you didn't want to see the CAFs until after you from the question and so you know we're staying trying to keep the wall there you know and then take it down brick I suppose as we get further along in the process so interview protocol so okay does it mean we may at their discretion I made that change right yeah town manager committee chair staff he was in the process diagram yes adopted you're probably in the wrong if you have to be in today's agenda packet my time is in your protocol draft so you're not on this document no okay I'm supposed to get a o2 to 519 and o419 there's still there's still a newer version in today's meeting the title has to have it isn't today's meeting we are having so much fun oh god this is awful all right well I guess I'll find it no you'll find it one of them out what how we can thank you for attempting to take minutes for such a meeting no I can do so I have to I hope so just people themselves so you only have to see these yeah and that only makes a little bit gesture so who wrote multiple member body as committee chair you're in the wrong I'm sorry who wrote multiple member body committee chair um a blue a purple flag it is elissa elissa I just think committee chair is fine doesn't matter next how long do you want to argue exactly not long trust me not long yeah where's the length of the minutes so I said was that okay yeah cover yeah one thing I discovered in reading the lawyers report on the open meeting you're there she's gonna be saying we shouldn't be sending minutes around for people to review I thought that was perfect well that doesn't make sense but yes because there's there's a chance of an expression of opinion except minutes aren't supposed to be expressions of opinion there's to be poorly just a record of what looks to transpire I hear you all right see you inserted multiple member body committee chair yes because it's like committee chair of what I know but but and we can rephrase it you can come up with a better phrase what I'm trying to say is no but the committee what what committee chair the oak of committee chair whatever any free committee chair relevant committee chair it's a time right it's a relevant committee chair you know appropriate we're this item too okay where it says under who is present at your discretion the designee may include time manager is available relevant committee chair or just I mean I don't care okay if you like that better I don't say people care I'll change it yeah relevant committee chair or just committee chair I mean it's pretty obvious it would be the committee that we're dealing with you would know that's why I changed it because it's not that obvious you'd be surprised just like on charged documents I don't like when they say later in the charge committee committee committee because I want to be able to copy and change it and I want it to say finance committee and I want it to say whatever committee change that example I got something I wanted to do so exciting all right that's not anything else designee who may at their discretion include relevant committee chair if available town manager if available staff liaison if available okay okay all right next roman three all members of the interview team need to follow this protocol not just oca designee so that needs to change because there are all members there's just all four that's right so and they thought hey we gotta get number two needs to be edited the first one I think is okay does time commitment how much required when committee meets maybe leave it at that drop everything after committee meets phrase the fact that okay so most of these questions are have you had any experience that they're mostly questions the oca designee is gonna ask but the second one is to require that the committee chair or staff liaison do something what if none of those people are there how can we effectively describe in less words than I would normally use George that says why don't we just say describe what committee does why don't we just do that so we just take all that out who's doing it describe what committee does time commitment homework required when the committee meets a major issues coming up without being reading which we'll figure out a way to phrase but that way this is the oca designee is doing this or the oca designee is turning to Nate Malloy it happens to be sitting there or if Nate Malloy is not there and you know then maybe the town manager could rather assign roles or the oca designee will have had to do a bunch of more homework because they know that they're not going to have a backup somewhere somewhere it seems like the charge will help we should mention the charge that they should have they're available that's a very good point that should be specifically any other relevant committee documents do we need to spell that out I think I think the charge and like I don't know like say if it was the housing committee and the housing production plan was hot off the process pushed them I mean these are only 20 minute interviews they just have a lot of time all right well the charge at the very least but so but here we're trying to tell the designee me how to do that I mean it's just getting into the weeds the charge really okay to the applicant this is part we this partly reflects back to the conversation that we had before about kind of quizzing them as to like do you have any idea what you're applying for have you ever been to any meetings et cetera so provide the charge to the applicant describe what the committee have the charge it seems a little late for them like in one okay all right contact those interested to set up interview and provide provide the copy of the charge so again going back to your little test of like do you actually know this committee to apply for a test but you could you could provide a copy of the charge to the web page and they could be like oh good I forgot to look at that or yeah and so we're we're we're helping them it's good we're helping them turn on okay so put it up and try good describe and remove two face three two okay so you're gonna want to bring the copy of the charge with you anyway to the meeting that's the other thing is it's one thing to email to the person but you're not going to be sitting there in 20 minutes and if you're trying to pull up the charge in your phone right so you're gonna just walk in when you walk in you're gonna have a copy of the CAF and you're gonna have a copy of their charge of the committee charge CAF uh table okay so then we can just change it to describe what committee drive it to me does time commitment go back to that because I just said that there's already a CAF and charge on the table this person's look is it clear that it's that person's CAF not everybody's CAF yes it is it is okay let's go let's go I'm gonna make sure that it's describing both the reason that I didn't write it there I'm sorry I was battling about that earlier when we were trying to fix something is that the reason we don't write that there is because if it turns out that they're not there so they bail or something happens they're not available or whatever like literally it's it could be just you all right it could be just you in which case you'd be like oh shit I expected them to tell me this so hopefully they would give you enough notice that they could tell you what they would have said okay so how do we without so how do we say the major because people liked the idea of major issues coming up but then didn't like the idea of making it so say it was back in the day one morning's pleasant street was coming up right we wanted to be like do you have any idea that morning's pleasant street is happening but on the other hand we don't want you to try and commit to what you think about morning's pleasant street because you're the committee has to decide that's not you mm-hmm can I interrupt for a minute I know this is we need to finish this but um I know that we have other votes that we were going to take today we just want to make sure that we have enough time mm-hmm yeah so so um what more do you want so looking back at our agenda are you having your other meeting at 11 yeah I'm just thinking about that I don't have to leave at 11 but I have a meeting I have said 11 45 that I'm running so late at 11 15 so are the votes you're referring to Darcy the thing under consider change to our charge okay that's four I'm thinking and please there's enough okay so these are proposals that were not necessarily in fact none of which were proposed by this committee these are all proposed by the president who wrote the charge in the first place right okay but did I make that clear well when you say we're taking votes it's like I mean there's always the question of like why do we want to do this because we're trying to be responsive to the president's concerns is that my understanding yeah as opposed to this was I mean all right I've never written every I'm not complaining sir I'm just trying to understand no I mean like if there's I don't know how to do it so if there's if there's something you're like this is what is expected we are literally making it as we go so there's a suggestion you want to make as to how the vote should be I was just looking at two separate documents I was looking at our agenda versus the report draft and the report draft makes that clear for me how do we want to go forward to accomplish whatever we have remaining before 1115 we have to 1115 so we will just try to skip it or so we're going to put the interview protocol aside for now and we're going to come to what we should be looking at Sarah it sounds like from what you said is we should be looking at the actual report the draft report more so than perhaps side by side with the agenda for today so in the same way yeah so we're just that's it's fun we're trying to do things side by side and rearrange all of this okay so technical difficulties are a huge waste of time so finance committee right this is not is this in is this in today's posting I believe it is yes it is I'm not talking about the agenda I'm turning off the post posting yeah it's been out of a church yes thank you so I'm in the software position because I'm on rules and so stirpsey and this was brought this was referred to rules by the council as she'll recall and then the idea was that rules would get a crack at it first and then I thought the idea was then OK would get a crack at but so rules did talk about this then I could say various things happen and no mention was made of it during the the cap town council meeting that was you mean that was like 10 days later after that meeting so it was never discussed however it was reported by some rules members who were on the finance committee to the finance committee and also by the president who's also who was there for the rules meeting and the finance committee meeting because she's part of the finance committee what was discussed at rules so the finance committee knows more about what happened than this body does yes so that did not work out overnight so that did not work out right so also that written report has not yet been finished by me which is supposed to be in tonight's packet for the entire town council reporting out what we decided which was maybe Darcy could say it faster than I could we decided that the finance committee could do the we could the finance committee would take from OCA the responsibility of interviewing candidates for the resident non-revoting residents of the finance committee and of then choosing them bringing them back to the finance committee to choose in other words they would set up a process they said they would base it on our process but then they would basically take that piece away from our responsibilities and do it themselves so I heard so keep it brief so first thing is like it doesn't specifically say residence defiance committee so there's nothing to take so I guess I'm a little curious because the wording of this is Bo on taking resident appointments to find this committee out of our charge but there's no charge charge right you had it up right take out of our charge technically doesn't say it says make recommendations to the council are mining regarding all appointments by the town so are we we're not taking anything out are you saying we're voting to add add to it that's just acceptable another one I'm saying we're not taking anything out of our charge we're adding language to the charge that says except for correct is that what we're looking to do right now well so if I mean Sarah wrote I'm just like us you know a way to phrase the vote not an opinion as to whether or not that should be the vote right in her report for tonight so for example it's outreach communication appointment committee voted on four one two two or not to remove from its charge of recommendation regarding resident appointments to find this committee you're right that it doesn't say we should we should alter that phrasing in the report there's nothing to take references out of the charge town council appointments which we currently believe the resident members to be right town council appointments and if they're town council appointments then they belong to us they are belong to us so we're not arguing to take anything out of our charge we're actually arguing at language to our charge to take something out of our no well no the only person who's arguing that is no no no that's what this committee or right I'm talking specifically about this language here yeah so we're gonna fix that right okay because you can't remove something that's not there right that's my first thing to okay so we actually if we're gonna if we do approve this we're actually adding to the charge we're not removing anything from the charge no wait okay the charge right now there's nothing to remove from the charge well there is if if we agree with rules what looking at this charge what are we actually going to remove we're going to we make recommendations town council regarding all appointments by the town council right that's what we currently do if we agree that finance committee should take that away from us then we need to change our charge if we don't agree we don't need to change into what though this is what I'm saying we're not removing any language from the charge we're adding language if we agreed with them we would change the charge and say make recommendations to the town council regarding all appointments by the town council except for right so so we're not removing anything any language from the charge we're adding language to the charge if we agree with that okay yes it's just a different way I'm sorry I realize we're on we're saying the same thing around different ways yes I get it I get it now okay I'm talking about the physical language in our charge right right right I'm saying if we if we approve this we're editing the charge not to remove anything but to add language that's specified okay so that was sorry that was more confusing than I needed to make it recommendations to the town council regarding so instead of that it should say I'm pasting the cognizance I can't get out of that so what should the motion be then by the town council now so the question is whether or not recommendations to the town to modify who would be to modify if we were agreeing to do this which no one is saying that we are at this point is to is to modify I'm looking I'm working on Sarah's report right now if you're trying to follow along modify its charge recommendation to the town council regarding all the wording is bad but it's currently says regarding all appointments to the town council to clarify I'm just making this up to clarify that not I mean that I mean it's wrong but but that's the general idea is that it says the to charge currently says all appointments by the town council we're saying if we agree with what rules agreed to and what finance committee seems to want that we okay would say well if you're gonna we agree with you there we would say we would clarify that statement in our charge to set non-voting members of the finance committee are not recommended by the okay but by the finance we could just say it's just not ours and then wherever they go so how do we feel about this about this how do we feel about this sort of a discussion about that okay is there a motion the motion hasn't been made it's just been drafted so that we just know what works so with respect to colleagues who are on the rules committee to make finance the only committee in our council that decides its own members to a point I am also and I don't know the details of this this is the problem with everything right is I don't I wasn't there so I don't know the discussion so for me if I'm just saying things that you all already debated but it seems to me very strange that finance committee would choose its own members which is a luxury that we give I would actually love to say Mark Parent you're in charge you choose your new ZBA members and then you don't have to do any and you can take a nap right and so to me it's a really strange thing I also think it's interest there's also a level of curiosity I have about the debate given that three of the if I'm that two two of the members of the rules committee are on finance three is it two two but I asked the president was probably at the meeting yes who also so the president this is a recommendation from the president who also serves on finance and so that seems to me an interesting dynamic um interesting dynamic let's go with that I'm not I'm not quite sure why this makes any sense at all and why we are charged with appointments to the town council that we would make a special carve out for finance committee it seems to make this committee it gives this committee a strange status that we are giving to no other committee so um I personally would love a good rationale for why this committee should be treated with such luxury but I was told I'm like zba this isn't to me because I know I'm here you guys are I don't want to talk about it really there are only people who have served on finance committee would be able to figure out who will be qualified to be at my feet the difference and if you're going to change this charge what makes me think you're not going to them say a motion because we have another boat so it would be I think somebody help me out here to modify its committee charge it's modified it's modified the charge that currently specifies recommendations to the town oka makes recommendations to the town council regarding all appointments by the town council Charter Section 2.9 to clarify that non-voting resident members of the finance committee are not recommended to the town council by the no it's like we have to fix this and then we can always just email the language yeah to okay just modify yeah but the moment we're not here committee charge so that's what we're trying to show is that it's changed that currently recommendations to the town council regarding all appointments by the town council to clarify that non-voting resident members of the finance committee are not recommended to the town council what if we simply don't act on this if we just we should why we worry about worrying this since nobody I mean just if we decide what to act on I mean nothing happens make a statement no they're going to go ahead is doing is this can I ask you a question no they can't we have the charge a charge says we have control so if we don't can I ask you a question to rule people is this being brought forward separate from the rules package for town council to vote on or will this be brought forward as part of an overall rules package that we vote on so the timing is such that this needs to be decided before the package gets brought forward so just like we had a recommendation on farm of address and we had a recommendation on public comment inclusion in the packets and we had a recommendation on agenda order we the charter says there will be a rule established about this particular issue about finance committee members who are not voting and therefore the rules committee needs to break a recommendation to the town council as to what that rule should be and the town council needs to adopt that rule I would argue the town council does not need to adopt that rule tonight I would argue that my report is very likely to say since it isn't done yet that the rules committee recommend that this that the town council hear from in addition to the rules vote which I will have to report on that they hear from OCA and then they make a decision as to what the rules should be and that's why we're doing this so that OCA has a statement to provide and it's interesting as Evan said when we have one committee that is populated by members of another committee then and that committee is you know the committee in question there's a conflict there you know Sarah I don't know how to deal with that exactly anyway I think we should vote it's usually in a very awkward position so so Darcy could speak to why she had stated I voted yes and the reason I voted yes was Evan Slick because I wanted to sell OCA down the river the reason I said yes was because it was clear I was going to be out of it and as a rules member I could not I didn't feel like I could argue I wanted to argue for OCA from OCA's point of view I didn't want to argue at rules from OCA's point of view unfortunately I think finance committee members who were there argued from finance committee's point of view so it's always like you say how do you how do you do this but from a rule standpoint I was glad to hear that they were at least willing to not just make up their own process but to adopt but to adopt OCA's process which of course they didn't know anything about because luckily luckily no one's really intending any of them any of the non-resident I mean based on what's what we've been told by the president etc is that no one's expecting the non-resident the resident non-voting members to be in place prior to July 1st right so the timing is not critical however I would argue that if OCA does not weigh in on this and say no way to stop that in fact it is just the finance committee for all I know is scheduling interviews right now right they and they I noticed they didn't put that I was expecting that was going to be in their revised charge and it isn't for tonight so right let's let's have a motion yeah all right crack the web tonight I like it so we could either make that motion or we could try and make the opposite motion that says it stays the same but I think it might actually be weirdly sensible to do this sort of do the negative so that people understand exactly what we meant rather than saying we vote to continue that our charge says what it says now and they're like well what does that mean so that's why I would so you just made that you made that motion and I'll second it okay okay and so of course we do have a motion and you made it and seconded it ceremony I made it I said oh so we have our own rules here everyone else is making up their own rules so that's right just get used to it and I was also told that the reason oh I think the only thing I can add is that when I said specifically the example of planning board appointing it's all members or ZBA appointing it's all members I was told that this was also the reason this was a unicorn and separate from other things is because in fact these members were non-voting and that somehow made it different yeah like that okay all right so so all of the discussion we're taking you a all in favor the motion is to remove it from our charge yes it's to modify our charge to modify our charge modify our charge no it's all those again close, close, close, close, close so unanimous I thought it was a zero five vote but yes it's weird it's weird to do it and kind of the negative like that but it that way it describes what it was so hey we got kind of but we got something done I like this um she is crashing the way it needs to be the stacker to have that job I move to retain coordination of the annual review prep the town manager annual review process within the oak charge so you want to make it about I move to retain the the coordination of the process because you copied this directly from our charter trade process of the town manager within the so this was a live request right I don't remember her rationale well I can try to make it I think the feeling is that the town manager affects obviously the entire council this body is focused on a specific set of tasks and she felt that it would be important to include I think she had in mind chairs of other committees rather than this particular body in other words to get greater diversity greater input a greater sense of the overall performance of the town manager obviously the five of us do see him but others on other committees especially committee chairs would see him in a different context so I think that was her argument that it would be she would prefer and think it'd be better to have that diversity and scope that this committee could not provide for this particular task of town manager so I think my understanding I think it's a failure of understanding of what the words coordinate it was never going to be these five people who were reviewing the town manager it said coordinate she wrote it the annual review process of the town manager and I said from the very first time she brought this up when we were sitting in the tiny cariborance room that of course it made sense that the president would be affiliated with us and of course it may and whoever we might come up with all sorts of levels of people there could be a 360 review as part of it etc it was never going to be that the town manager evaluation was going to be written by these five people it was going to be coordinated by this group and I still think it belongs being coordinated by this group I think there was also the comment at one point that it could be split off as an ad hoc thing and I totally just I totally disagree with that as the basic premise I think the basic premise is coordination and then as the time gets closer entirely split off an ad hoc just like to work on the goals for the town council to work on the evaluation instrument for example split off an ad hoc group to work on that so that all 13 don't have to work on it so that all five of us aren't for it but we're coordinating the process not not do we get all our sides right and all 13 councilors are going to be doing evaluations anyway so well under some people's opinion that wouldn't happen so that's one of the reasons I want this body to coordinate so that we can have those discussions right yeah but I guess that hasn't been decided but it seems obvious to some of us but perhaps not all of us that all 13 councilors would have some sake and so that doesn't mean that you couldn't have an ad hoc group of committee chairs that that worked on one aspect of this and so so I moved to retain the coordination of the annual review process town manager within the overcharge Alyssa moved two seconds okay Darcy's second second is here to be good all right well with your discussion I guess is that it is there any I have my reservations about this I really think that this is something I would dearly love to hand off to a group and just let them worry about it for the entire year we have enough to do I don't feel strongly according to okay coordination but that means we're ultimately responsible for making sure that this thing gets done and I would refer to have another group responsible for it and we just don't have to worry about that particular task it's this one particular task that's done every year and has to be done in a certain way and it should involve a certain set group of people and every year we have to revisit it okay who gets to be on at this time is this committee chair that committee chair da da da da you know I mean we can do it and I guess we'll do it but I just I would I have no problem with giving this to it an ad hoc call it what you will but another body of which maybe one or two of us will be members or maybe we won't but and that's their job and their responsibility and they have to meet the deadlines and they have to do all the paperwork blah blah blah blah because this is going to be as you know an enormously demanding task to be done right so that's my only concern I'm not going to die for it but you know I don't have a problem farming this off to somebody else I would ask that you hold on to all those concerns and as we move along that you vote for my motion and then as we move along that you say now I can see where we can carve pieces off of this where this is not going to be our responsibility where we are just going to set up you know this part of it but the rest of it is going to be retained by other people I can tell you for a fact that what will happen if we don't retain some control of this process is we will have no control of this process meaning the council will have no control of this process a few individual members will have control of this process and that's why I want us to remain in a coordinating position until we get further along and then there might very well be a structure like a decision sheet that makes sense that people could carry forward in your subsequent but I think largely the first year we're going to have to get through it and then see because you're stuck with the old stuff that the town manager is being evaluated on select worry value because you can't decide suddenly your value on those things this time but then for that whole process to unfold that it may well be that next year at this time George we're taking ourselves out of the process because it no longer needs to be coordinated by us in theory or some lesser amount of it does but I hear what you're saying in terms of the workload absolutely but if we're assigning peace parts I mean I'm you know I think we assign peace parts out and that's what we can or we ask the president to assign peace parts out to people or whatever I just I am loath to let go of a group that has to me has a huge stake in the town manager evaluation based on the appointment he brings us the rest of the council no matter what process we decide council wide the rest of the council will never know the town council the town managers appointment process as well as we do and how effective or not effective we perceive that to be I think as a huge part of his evaluation so that's why I think it makes sense for us to carry it forward once we get through more of the struggle we've got we've got their gene therapy well not any I especially look here and just pay I kind of object to the way that was talked about in our report in that we're not we're not like the little sunshine club that's going and making the forums work for people no no well I was just saying that's a good thing I could possibly see but I will I have an argument all right like we don't have to do like we don't really have a big part in our speech yes I wanted to say I I I agree a lot of what George said especially because I personally have no interest in me even though that said I would be incredibly hesitant to remove it from our charge without seeing a what's going to take its place what it would be and it sounds like the president's argument at current is I don't think it belongs in your committee so take it out and we'll figure out what it it'll be like and she has some ideas and she's expressed some of it but it's not a fully formed proposal and so I think for now at least we should say this stays in our committee if you want to if someone wants to bring forward a proposal of how we could better do a time manager evaluation then we can look at it and we could say you know what we will remove this but to remove it from our charge before knowing what it's going to be seems like a but it's it's a weird thing to do it's like I did all right we did it's the motion is to retain retain yeah I'm sorry I got a I got a run okay we get it all done yeah because you were pushing me I know it looks scarier when I saw the four votes we're just described two different ways so the four bullet points are just two different descriptions of taking it out voting so I'm going to make all the house voting yes we'll work on the report so are you guys going to go ahead you have you technically have a committee meeting that and I will just put this aside I could be a visitor at your committee if I don't talk how's that so we so that the minutes of the next so we have to adjourn at what time I move to adjourn 1117 1117 thank you Evan for straightening us out on how to describe the thing way too soon yes okay so we adjourned at 1117 and now