 I'm sure you know that feeling as a customer where you're thinking, well, everything would be so much better if this organization had a little bit more empathy for me. But is that really the case? In this episode, we're going to explore how much empathy does an organization actually need for its customers and how do you build that empathy, especially in an environment where it's not part of the daily conversation like the government. Here's the guest for this episode, let the show begin. Hi, my name is Mike Klip and this is the Service Design Show, episode 94. Hi, I'm Mark and welcome to the Service Design Show. This show is all about helping you to design organizations that put people at the heart of their business. The guest in this episode is somebody who was born in Suriname but now works and lives in the Netherlands. She's competing in the national championships as a slope rower and she has an amazing research project on what it means to be a compassionate civil servant. Her name is Mike Klip. I'm really excited to share this chat with Mike with you because I think she has found an ingenious way to get people working in the government to talk about the difficult topic like empathy. So at the end of this episode, you'll have learned about design research method, which is not common day, but you might also want to use in your organization to start a conversation about empathy. If you haven't done so already, make sure to click that subscribe button and that bell icon to get notified when new videos are out because we share at least one video per week that will help to level up your service design skills. So for the intro, now let's quickly jump into the chat with Mike. Welcome to the show, Mike. Thank you very much, Mark. Happy to have a fellow Dutch woman on the show. We haven't had many people from the Netherlands, so happy to see you here. Thank you very much. For the people who don't know who you are, you're doing cool stuff, but I can imagine not everybody has Googled you yet. Could you give a brief introduction in what you're doing these days? Yes, that's good. So I work for the Dutch government as a digital strategist, the executive agency for education. And we have a very, well, I think it's a big design team in-house for about 25 people. And well, it's not besides my, well, it's half my job, it's duo and half not. I also have this photo series of civil servants where I ask my colleagues if I can photograph them as a compassionate civil servant. So this series actually gives me a lot of insight about what government needs to make good services. So it's like this part-time personal project and also part-time job that I can really incorporate to do my job better. So I think that's, in short, what I do, yeah. Yeah, and we'll be talking about good services and compassionate civil servants a lot in good services. It's quite a popular topic at this moment. I think there is a bug out these days. Yeah, from down, yeah. The question I ask everybody is, what is your first memory of service design? Well, I think that I started working in UX, I think six years ago. And I really didn't have a background in UX at all. But when I worked for a year at the same organization I work now, I remembered going to the service design and government conference in London. And it was like a small conference. There were mostly people from London or from the UK. And I was there with some of my colleagues from the Netherlands. And I remembered Lou Down talking there about service design. And I thought they were really cool and they had such an interesting approach. So I think that was when I started to read more about service design and see my work. I started as a user researcher, and I think that's when I started seeing my work, not just as doing research, but also looking broader and thinking about how can I have more impact with my research in the organization and maybe change things more than just coming up with insights. I think a lot of researchers with or not within service design are sort of interested in actually turning insights into action, right? Making sure that insights get acted upon. So really curious to what you have to say about that. Are you ready to do some interview jazz? Yes. Let's do it. Yes, I am. I have the topics over here. You have the now world famous service design show question starter. So let's start with topic number one, which is called understanding. Do you have a question starter? And can you show it to us? Yes, I will, because you gave me six question starters, and I think they all fit here. But I will just pick. Yeah, it's just this one. Yeah, how much, how much understanding do you need? Because shall I introduce the question? Please do. Let's yeah, how much understanding do we need? How much understanding do you need? Because that is, you know, when I started my work in service design in digital government, I was I was pretty black and white in the way I thought about understanding about about empathy for users. I thought that everybody should have more empathy and everybody didn't have enough of it. So I was pretty condescending, I think. And I think that is also what what sparked my photo series about the compassion of civil servant, because I wanted to portray everyone as well with understanding for citizens and with compassion. And I was investigating on how much empathy and how much understanding do you actually need? Because in the last couple of years, I also did a lot of research on what empathy actually is. And I noticed that. It is well, when you when you do a lot of research into one subject, it can become quite philosophical, philosophical, but also you get much more nuanced about it. So I learned in my research project that empathy actually is a skill and depending on where you are in the process of service design of or in your organization, you you can have you get you do need more or less understanding, but it's not like this black and white thing. So that's that's something that I'm very interested in. And also, if that's your approach, if you think that is as a skill and that you can be a bit more nuanced about it, then it's really interesting to look. OK, so what's the next step? If you're having this position within the process? So how much understanding do you need? And how are you going to get it? So that's why I like how much as a yeah, yeah, I can imagine. We often talk about empathy like people don't have it or you do have empty like really sort of an on and off switch. Yeah. So if it is a skill and we can we have sort of gradualities and nuances in there, how do we answer the question? How much and and I guess it's how much understanding for the other person, right, or towards the other person, whether it's your colleague or a citizen. Or because what I do in my work for the government is I approach this digital services more or less as a relationship. You know, it's not about well, you know, at the organization where I work, we do a lot educational services. So for example, students can apply for student loans. We do a lot of school fundings. But when you look at surface design, it's I think the the the short term is people just want to to get their shit done, you know, just I'm applying for student finance, I want the money on my bank account. But in the long term, people also want to know if they can trust the government. If you get me, if you understand who I am and what what I need. And a lot of people have this lifelong relationship with government, you know, if you apply for student loans, that's the start of like a 20 year relationship with us. So and what I also noticed about empathy, because if you approach it as a relationship, it's it's per definition about humans and not about applications and technical stuff. But if you look at empathy, and I think that's for me was sometimes hard to understand that government as a whole, you don't want government to work on empathy because empathy also has a lot of flaws. You know, it's very random. I have empathy for you because I got to know you a little bit preparing this podcast. But one of your colleagues, I don't know him at all. So I might not have empathy for him at all. You know, so especially government, you don't want government to work on empathy. You want government to be just to be equal to be right, you know. So for a lot of people working in government, you know, on the one side, you have this law and this last just and equal. And on the other hand, you want it to be human. But it's it's so empathy is it's a it's a difficult subject, you know, because empathy is so personal. So when I'm asking colleagues, how much empathy do you need? How understanding are you as a civil servant? It's a really hard question for a lot of them. And it's hard because they might want to be more understanding, but it that clashes with. Yeah, they might feel that that it's not appropriate in their jobs because, you know, you have this law dictating how it should be. But also, because it's I think that in government, we don't have maybe this is maybe just my opinion, but I think we haven't talked about it enough yet because we I think empathy is not a goal in itself. It's just like a tool for your toolbox and you can it's like this. You know, when it's dark, you put up a light and you can just see this part of the room. And that's how you should use empathy to make a way. So what I discovered is government shouldn't work on empathy. But when we make government, you know, in service design, we make these services. You can, of course, use understanding as a tool. But it's like this really nuanced part. And I think that a lot of people are still struggling how to use that tool if the end result shouldn't be run on empathy at all. Right, right. So you make a distinction between empathy in the design process versus empathy in the service that is being delivered. Yes. Yes. Yes. But also not because when you talk about the design process, but maybe that's just in my organization, it gets really claimed by designers. And what I'm trying to do at my organization is to you know, if you if you look at the process from a lobbying made up and the execution, you know, you're calling us or you're going to the website. Sure. Yeah. You have this whole process. And I think that everybody that takes part in that process, you know, the business analyst, the product owner, the people answering the phone. Everybody is part of that service and everybody needs. Well, how much understanding does everybody needs in that process? But I noticed that when I, but maybe that's a question, and I'm also wondering how you think about it, when I talk about the design process, a lot of people think it's just about this little part of that whole process. Because design is such a term that people claim or don't claim, you know, and I'm still figuring it out how to make it more inclusive for everyone working in my organization to tell them you're all part of this. And we all need empathy as a tool, but we're all struggling in how to use it. And that's that's OK, because we're making progress. So yeah, well, we'll dive into that subject at a later moment, I guess, because now we need to close off maybe or transition into transition into topic number two, which is called responsibility. Yes. Yes. So I think I'm going to put this one. How can we have our how can we have responsibility? And I think that responsibility and understanding is actually not very much. Well, it's different, of course, but I think it's like this understanding is one and responsibility is step two, you know, because if you what I notice that when I talk with my colleagues about what an understanding, civil servant they are and how they deal with empathy and if they even feel empathy at all for citizens and our users. We get to talk about their work, about why they go to work, what's in it for them, but also what their responsibilities are. And what I noticed is that a lot of people in government are don't have the overview of the whole process, you know, at the organization where I work, where quite big, I think, well, not as big as others, but maybe 3,000 people weren't there. And we do a lot of our services in-house, I think most of them. So that is, of course, has benefits because you can do everything on your own as an organization. But also it's so big that a lot of people don't know what their neighbor is doing, you know, and they don't know their part in the process because it's such a big process. And if you don't know what the impact is of the part you're doing, you don't know if it even matters if you have empathy, but you also cannot take responsibility for the end result. So I think that that empathy and responsibility, understanding and responsibility is like maybe the same puzzle, you know, that's something I'm wondering. Yeah, so what kind of responsibility are we talking about? Is it like responsibility for satisfying citizens or? Yeah, maybe that's a scale as well. No, but well, I'm thinking I'm thinking it's smart, small responsibility to have ownership of your work, you know, and to make to make your work better if you want to and not waiting for like a manager or a colleague, you know. I think it starts with that the ownership of your own work. There's a responsibility of your own work, but I think it gets bigger because a lot of people don't feel responsible or they can't take responsibility for the relationship that government has with citizens because, you know, what is my impact? I'm not the one having the relationship. But together we all form this organization and that organization has a relationship. So I think that if you but I think it starts small, it starts you going to work today feeling that you can have ownership of what you do and. Yeah, I think and then it can translate to something bigger. Yeah, I would be curious if you found examples of. People who do feel responsible for the end result because I can imagine that there are quite many people who do feel responsible for their work, but making the leap the next leap. Like. How do you do that? Is that even possible? Yeah, because then you're talking about, well, I think it starts with awareness. So I'm remembering this interview I did with one of my colleagues, Jean, it's called, and he's a business analyst and he wanted his portrait to be. Well, I asked the question. It was like sitting, sitting there thinking and I photographed him like a bit like, you know, that face, like, like thinking hard and and don't know. And he said, yeah, that's my portrait as a compassionate civil servant of like, that's more like an anti portrait. He said, yeah, because I think empathy is a hard word for me and I'm struggling. And then he said something else in his interview, because when you look at this process and he's a bit more in the start of this whole execution of laws and by the way he does his work, he comes up with analysis and he analyzes how things should be, for example, in the help desk. So he says when people in the help desk doesn't that when they don't have like the opportunity to show empathy, that's my responsibility to think of here. So in the interview that I had with him, it started with how much empathy do you have and how can you incorporate understanding in your work? And then it's translated into I am responsible for so much more, but I don't know how to do that. So then it's interesting because when that happens with someone, then you can start talking about change and you can start asking, OK, do you want something to change and how can we do that? But if people and I think also teams don't have that awareness themselves, you cannot take the next step. Right. So it's obvious, but it starts with awareness that you that you're part of a bigger system. Of course, you sort of know that because you go to work to a big organization. But when the conversation is not focused on that, when the conversation is focused on your specific role, then I can imagine it's it's hard to understand. But also, you know, it's like everybody has such a complicated job. So how many times a week do you take the time to really understand what someone else is doing? You know, and and making these portraits gave me the chance. I have like these two hour interviews with colleagues while photographing. And for a lot of people, they also tell me, oh, this has been a long time since I told someone so thoroughly about what I do at work. So that was interesting for me as well. Yeah, you know, so it's like having a meaningful conversation. I'm not saying we don't have meaningful conversations at work, but a different kind of conversation. Yeah, different kind and maybe not so so more, you know, so deep into why you do your work and what you want to achieve with that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, in that way, like doing interviews and making photos of people is maybe an excuse in between quotes to have these conversations, right? It's it's not about the photo. It's about the conversation that happens. Yes. Yes, of course. Well, talking about conversations, let's translate or no, trans trans transform into topic number three, which is coincidentally linked to conversations because this one is about open conversations. Yes, I already knew that, of course. Like this, this really great cliffhanger. Yeah, and I'm going to choose the what if conversation starter. What if we have an open conversation? What is an open conversation in your perspective? Yeah. Well, I I when you asked me to prepare for the podcast and you asked me for some topics, I wrote like this open conversation as a as a conversation piece because I write about my work on my research blog. And what is the URL? I'll link to it down below. Yeah, it's it's what's Dutch. It's Clip Klaar. OK, I'll link to it. Yeah. And it's my name, Clip. And it's like this fun word play in Dutch is like clip done. But yeah, so it translates. Yeah, it translates very bad in English, but that's OK. So it's also a Dutch research blog, but Google Translate will be your friend. So yeah, I write about my work and I also write these stories that colleagues tell me on my research blogs, and that's open for everyone to read. And I noticed some of I noticed some things since I've been writing. I have this blog for I think three or four years now. And first of all, it has so many benefits to have an open conversation. And I think open conversation is open. Everybody can read it, you know, and it's not hard to find and it's equal for everyone. And also open conversation means that people can react. You know, it's also I'm there with my name. You can send me an email. So and I would love and I always love to hear comments and discussions with others. And I think that first of all, I learned so much because I got to meet all kinds of people working in government and all these different perspectives helped our team to grow. But also I learned that for people to share their personal story about working in government has created this open conversation about what is hard for us, but it also created more overview on this whole process, you know, because suddenly other people started, how do you say that? So one colleague says, oh, but it's also in the interview with John that mentioned it. So they start, you know, directing to each other and you really can see this process going on. And because it's in the open, you can follow it and people start recognizing it. So I noticed that has like this really big benefit. But I also noticed something else that it's that it's really scary by times because it's so vulnerable to show your show, you know, for yeah, for my colleagues in the pictures, they are really vulnerable pictures, but also to have this open conversation for government as a whole, you know, my organization thinks, OK, so she's writing all this stuff. OK, OK, what's it going to do? You know, government is really close. So I think that's really interesting. And that's why I also chose the what if question starter because I thought, you know, I'm just I'm just doing one thing trying, but what if we have more open conversations, you know, and what would change and what would would be would it be easier to have a better relationship with citizens would be easier to be more responsible? Yeah, what if we do that more? So I want to go back to when you started the block three or four years ago. OK, did you ask permission? Did you just do it? What was that process like? Yeah, so I started the research blog because I wanted to learn more about UX and service design, and I found it hard to find Dutch websites from others like me learning. And also in government, but as a whole, so I just started out, you know, and if you go in the archive, I find the first blocks. They are like, oh, I read a book. It's a nice book, you know, it's like these really simple blogs. And I think it kind of evolved into the blog I have now, which is really more on point and and I'm delving much deeper into different kind of subjects. So when I started the blog, of course, I mentioned it to my boss and my manager and they thought, yeah, sure, if you want to write about a book you're at, be my guest. Little did they know that it would evolve into so much more. No, but yeah, but that's also a thing, you know, I do everything in the open. So every step of the way, everybody can see. And and I what I do now, because it's it's a bit more, of course, I have more sensitive issues on the blog now. So before I post something, I might ask a colleague, please read with me. I go to the communication department at my organization. OK, I'm going to post this blog. So, you know, beforehand, so that's, you know, just good working together. And yeah. And. Have you, you said, at least colleagues read some of the interviews. But have you also gone on some interaction with actual people outside of the organization, citizens or different departments within the government? And so what were these responses? I think that I think most of the people reading my blog are working in design or government. And maybe my dad, you know, but that's going to be it because it's like such a niche subject. And so I don't think students are reading the blog. But what I do know is whenever I'm at school, talking with students and doing research, I, you know, I have this little little thing I do that I bring cards and on the back, it says, this is how I'm a compassionate civil servant. And I'm asking students to write what they think we as civil servants should know about them so we can be compassionate. And then and I think that's a really fun exercise because you see these students thinking, oh, oh, they're thinking about having more compassion for me. Oh, that's interesting. And then you see this connection happen that they also don't see just the organization, but I see, hey, there are people behind that organization. So. And then, you know, a lot of students say, oh, it's so great that you talk about this at your organization. They should have more empathy for me, you know. And so I think that's that's great. And that's that that are ways that I'm trying to make that connection. But what I do like about this blog is, of course, a lot of my own colleagues are reading it, but also a lot of people in other governmental organizations are reading it. Yeah. So what I'm trying to do with my writing is to, you know, working at the executive agency for education is just one type of government, you know, and it's it's like my case. But what I hope is that the insights are are favorable for others and that it's also working for others. So, yeah, what's what's really interesting is that we started out with the word understanding and it started out like inside out understanding from within the organization who is providing the service towards the people who are getting the service. But from what you've said just now, it's also the other way around, like opening up the organization towards the audience also creates an understanding what is going on inside the organization and maybe creating more understanding how things are happening, that it's actually people thinking about stuff, being careful. So it's it's creating understanding both ways. Yeah, but yeah, that's that's how our relationship works. Right. I did this exercise with like a yellow rope where I went on the streets in Rotterdam and I I tied the rope around my waist and I asked people how do you want to connect with me to government. So that was like a fun exercise that I didn't thought away all the way through. But, you know, I had some great conversations and I noticed a lot about people wanting to be connected. Also a lot of people who didn't want to be connected at all. And I noticed that when you open up government and you really start showing yourself and talking about what also what are the challenges, you know, people really want to help you solve them. So just want to come to the office and think with us how we can do better. So I think that's that's maybe the start of doing great service design in fighting others and showing yourself. Yeah, but it's so scary to open up. Yeah, sure. Yeah, I know. Yeah. I know you didn't prepare for this question, but as we're doing interview jazz, you'll be able to handle it. Sure. So is there a question that you'd like to ask us, the viewers and listeners of the show? Oh, wow, that's a good question, because I think that the listeners of the show are mostly service designers like myself. So yeah, maybe maybe the last the last question, what if open conversation? And because that's that's also a question I'm not sure of myself, right? I'm just trying something. And I'm just wondering how other people deal with that and how other people try to incorporate more of the other person, you know, the users into their organization. It's maybe a bit of a cliche question because everybody asks that. But I'm really curious to know how other people are doing that, because, you know, I think that's a question that we say all the time we need people to be more involved. But how are people really going about into changing that and doing that? That's something I would like to know. Yeah. So what are what are your tips, tricks, techniques, methods to actually really involve people in the design process? Just ask them, I think. Yeah, well, that's yeah, that wasn't specifically a question for you. But this is the question towards the community. So yeah, I can imagine that like making photos or doing interviews is is one way to actually do it. And I would love to hear more like these sort of secret hacks, how people are involving other people. Yeah. If people want to get in touch with you, Michael, what is the best way? Um, yeah, there are so many ways. What is the best email I'm on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, all kinds of stuff. And of course, you can read my blog. If if people want the English version of the photo series, that's also available. That's on the grip fuller on tenor.nl. But there's also an English part of the website. So I'm not sure all the links are in the in the show. Yeah, yeah, that would be great. Thanks so much for sharing this story. I like the I need to find a better word. But the war stories, people who are actually getting their hands dirty and doing and doing the stuff and running into challenges. So yeah, it was great to hear your your story, Michael. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. So what is your take on Michael's question? How do you involve people in the design process? Leave your tips, tricks and techniques down below in the comments. We would love to know if you enjoyed this episode. Consider sharing it with just one other person today who might find it helpful as well. That way, you'll help to grow the service design show community. And that helps me to invite more cool guests like Michael here on the show. Thanks for watching. And I'll see you in the next episode, which you can find over here.