 Emerging Conservation Professionals Network. Joining me is Aisha Fuentes, ECPN Communications Officer, and Aisha and I are very pleased to moderate today's program beyond the prerequisites preparing for graduate education in art conservation, the fifth webinar in a series presented by ECPN. We are thrilled to have with us a fantastic panel of conservation educators representing the five North American graduate programs in art conservation. Before we continue, I want to familiarize you a little bit with the GoToWebinar program that we're using today to facilitate the webinar. In the view window where you see the title slide, it can be resized by clicking and dragging from the lower right corner. The control panel is where you can see as an attendee your own screen and you can take a little bit of control. You may find that within Activity, the control panel automatically minimizes. And if you wish to turn off this feature, you can go to the View menu and deselect the Auto Hide option. And the audio section of your screen just indicates whether or not you're connected with us by phone or by Internet. And all of you listening are currently muted, so the way that you communicate with us and each other is through the question and chat box at the bottom right of your screen. There is also a Raise Hand option, but we won't be using that today. During today's program, our speakers will address a range of issues surrounding pre-program preparation that we will not find among the coursework requirements and internship prerequisites listed on the university's websites. I'll introduce our speakers in just a moment, but first I'd like to share with you some more information about UCPN and highlight some of our past webinars. For those of you who are not familiar with UCPN, we are a network within AIC dedicated to supporting conservation professionals as they move through the first stages of their careers. We do this by organizing a variety of initiatives and programs, which includes AIC's mentoring program, contributing to the PR toolkit that's hosted on AIC's Wiki, a regional and graduate liaison program, which helps us connect with emerging conservators across the United States, a webinar series, and programming at the AIC annual meeting, which has included informational meetings, portfolio sessions and seminars, happy hours, posters, and most recently a very successful networking session. To learn more about UCPN, we encourage you to join us for our monthly conference calls, which are usually held on the second Tuesday of each month at 12 p.m. eastern time. And please subscribe to our periodic e-blasts, which you can do by logging onto the AIC website and editing your profile by selecting UCPN under your interests. And as I'm sure many of you are already well aware, you can also follow us on our Facebook page and by following the AIC blog, Conservators Converse. Visit the link on the screen for more information. Through our webinar series, UCPN strives to connect with all levels of our membership, pre-program individuals, graduate students, and recent graduates by addressing a range of topics of interest to emerging conservators and responding to the needs of emerging professionals at the different stages of their career. Since 2012, we have hosted webinars on the topics of self-advocacy and funding, private practice, pre-program internships, and outreach and advocacy. Recordings of all of our webinars may be accessed on AIC's YouTube channel. And a recording of today's program will join those recordings shortly after the program. Okay, now let's return to today's program. We are very pleased to welcome what we consider an all-star panel of conservation educators, and we are so glad that they are able to take the time to speak with us today. Our speakers include Peggy Ellis from the Institute of Fine Arts at New York University, James Ham from Buffalo State College, Rosaline Hill from Queens University, Debbie Hess-Norris from the Winterthur University of Delaware program, and Ellen Kerlstein from the UCLA Getty program. Biographies for each of our speakers can be found on a blog post published by UCPN on the AIC blog earlier this week. Today, our panel of speakers will respond to three topics developed by UCPN about preparing for graduate education in art conservation. In the interest of time, we've asked each of the speakers to take the lead on one topic. However, you should know that our speakers have been working collaboratively to address these topics and provide a response that reflects the perspectives of all five programs. Throughout the webinar, you will see images of students from each of the five training programs represented in the slide show. Our program will conclude with a question-and-answer session moderated by Aisha. These questions were selected from those submitted by you, the audience, through the webinar registration form, Facebook, and our post to the AIC blog. As we received more questions possible to address in the Q&A session, we've arranged for an extended Q&A immediately following the main program, so we hope that many of you will be able to stick around for that. Okay, and as I've already mentioned, today's program will not focus on prerequisites for admission to the graduate programs. For more information on the pre-program internship hours and coursework requirements, GRE scores, and portfolios, we encourage you to visit and become familiar with each of the department websites listed on this slide. As the requirements do vary from program to program. And don't worry if you aren't able to jot down these addresses just now, this slide will reappear at the end of the program during the Q&A session. So now, we're going to go ahead and start the program. Please join me in welcoming our wonderful panel of speakers, and let's begin the discussion with our first topic. Rosalene Helve, Queen's University, and Debbie Hasnarras will take the lead on this one. So Rosalene and Debbie, the first question is, what experiences and qualities beyond the prerequisites do the admissions committees look for in an applicant? In other words, what qualities do you look for in an applicant beyond the three-legged stool of art studio, connoisseurship, and science skills? Rosalene, why don't you begin? Great, thank you. So as Queen's is a two-year program, students supply directly to the stream that they want to major in. So for instance, students supply directly either to paper, paintings, objects, or to research science stream. Because of the requirement to apply directly to a major, we look for students who have the knowledge about and experience with their declared major. So how does a student demonstrate that? Well, we look for students who can clearly articulate why they want to study art conservation and why they've selected their major. So how can we demonstrate that? Well, they can demonstrate that by expressing how they've been involved in the field of cultural heritage, how they seek out opportunities for volunteers, opportunities, or work-studying opportunities in museums, libraries with conservation applications, preservation applications, digital preservation. Have they been able to work with First Nations groups to deal with preservation issues relating to First Nations or other cultural groups? We look also towards experience that may not have been directly related to conservation treatment or conservation in its treatment museum aspect, but also we look for students that have been able to look at conservation in a broader context. Have they been able to look at opportunities in their region, in their geographic area to be able to demonstrate an understanding and knowledge and ability to access opportunities? We look for students who have had conservation lab experience. On our website you'll notice that we don't require conservation lab experience. It's highly desirable, but not a requirement. That said, our program is highly competitive, so if you're able to have conservation lab experience, that is extremely beneficial. We're looking for students that have a broader awareness of the field of conservation. Are they aware of or members of the American Institute for Conservation, the Canadian Association for Conservation, and or local groups such as the Pacific Conservation Group in Vancouver and Victoria or say the Washington Guild in D.C. We're looking for students who are aware of or take part in various lists serves like the conservation dislist that they're aware of the various Facebook pages associated with each one of the programs. All of this leads to a demonstration and a confidence in the students' selection in their proposed major for their application at Queens. We are looking also for students who have exhibited experience in looking out and visiting conservation labs, both public and private in their regions and beyond. We're looking for students that have a recognized understanding that science, chemistry and organic chemistry is important for all aspects of conservation. We're looking for students that have hands-on experience. So at Queens, hands-on experience can be looked at in two ways. Hands-on in a conservation lab but if you haven't had the opportunity to have experience in a lab it's also hands-on in terms of studio art whether that's fine art on paper whether that's furniture making or whether that's something to do with some other aspect of art, that's equally important. We're looking also for critical thinking. Are you able to sort of assess articles on what is involved in conservation your abilities which speaks to self-awareness self-awareness being what are your skills that you bring to the program what do you think you need also the ability to think holistically. Art conservation is a broad field. We draw on many, many different disciplines to allow us to preserve cultural materials as best opportunity possible. So we're looking for students that have a very wide or are willing to think very broadly in terms of how to problem solve. We're also looking for students that have examples or an opportunity to demonstrate that they've been able to work effectively in a team. So I guess that speaks to the ability to work well with others good humor and all the rest. We're also looking for students that demonstrate curiosity that have energy the ability to focus and an attention to detail because conservation is nothing if not the ability to focus to look holistically the attention to detail and the ability to actually complete a project to an extremely high level. On a very basic level Queens has a requirement of a B plus average, a 3.3 grade point minimum. We look actively for people who meet that very basic minimum. It's a very competitive program to get into as are all the programs. So anything that you can do to enhance your application would be worthwhile. We actively encourage students to contact Queens ahead of time so ahead of their application date so that we can talk with them in terms of being able to enhance your application. Debbie do you want to take over? Debbie are you there? I can go on. I'm here. I'm here. I'm here you guys. Good. So thank you Rosaline Thank you ECPN for organizing this webinar and for your hard work not just in doing this but all the initiatives and activities that Michelle spoke about really has made a tremendous difference in the lives of emerging conservators and we're most grateful for that. Rosaline made so many excellent points and some of my commentary will repeat what she had to say but hopefully we'll elaborate a bit in areas of interest. So what are we looking at beyond the requirements? Certainly a sincere interest in the field at large and the challenges that we face in the preservation of cultural heritage and ideally a commitment to global reach where that's practical. It's not that we anticipate that all of our applicants will have opportunities to work around the world but we certainly anticipate that there may be an interest in addressing some of these challenges that we're all grappling with. We're looking for manual skills and dexterity, good humor and empathy for others the ability to focus teamwork and collaboration which is increasingly important in our field across the board whether you're working in Africa, the Middle East, the United States Latin America and we're looking for evidence of that in an applicant's activities. Critical thinking and of course the ability to connect academic coursework to hands-on experiences is so critical can an applicant take something that they might have learned in an art history, a studio course or a chemistry course and apply it in a direct way to a project they're involved in whether it's preventive conservation, conservation treatment, documentation etc. We're looking for patience, problem solving, independent thinking, the application as I've said earlier really to scientific and art historical knowledge to their work in a conservation environment or perhaps in other activities that they've been involved in. An understanding of ethics, the philosophies the general knowledge of the field that one would gain through work in conservation studios as well as through membership in AIC or the Canadian conservation group as Rosalind mentioned. Curiosity is key and a willingness to delve deeper and to show initiative to demonstrate that you have taken a project and done additional reading in art history or in science or in conservation related topics is really important. The ability to think deeply to make connections between those legs of the stool we always talk about conservation as a three-legged stool. We always talk about building those legs and enhancing your scientific, your art historical and your hand skills as you build the skill through your career as you build the stool, sorry, through your career. But we're also looking for your ability to integrate the information between those legs, between those rungs and the understanding that emerges in doing so. We're looking for energy of course and passion and commitment to the preservation of cultural heritage, to art and culture and the interest in expanding your pre-program experience in other ways. For example, have you had the opportunity or pursued opportunities to engage with public audiences to blog, to lead tours to share your knowledge and social media, whatever that might be and there's so many ways to do so. It's an exciting time really to be involved in the field. So what are some strategies that might help you to address these and other characteristics that we're all seeking? Rosaline has mentioned them I'll go through my list as well. Certainly take time to carefully review the prerequisite requirements for all of our programs. They're similar in some ways and they're different in others so be sure that you are well aware of application deadlines of requirements, pursue multiple applications, ensure that your GREs are strong and never ever hesitate to ask questions of current students of alums and certainly of the programs themselves. We're all here to help to promote the field, to guide you, to provide you with direction and so don't ever be shy, be your own advocate. Pursue advanced coursework in one or many areas to further distinguish your candidacy. So whereas we all have requirements in studio art, in art history, anthropology, museum studies and or science, pursue opportunities beyond those requirements. Work beyond those prerequisites, consider a course in instrumental analysis or biochemistry. And as an undergraduate, if you're still an undergraduate, engage in research if possible. It could be an art historical project, it could be a project in chemistry or other areas as well. And also think about if you're interested in working in the global stage in area studies minor or a language minor or major as well. Take short courses to 10 seminars and workshops regionally on conservation and related themes. Think about business themes, fundraising, nonprofit management, communication skills. And document these in your resume, list lectures and other things that you've attended. This is not something you can do later on in life, I'm sure that our resumes, we couldn't possibly list, it wouldn't be smart for us to list lectures we've attended. But at your point and your stage of your career, this is a welcome addition to your resume. What have you done to bolster your knowledge? Take weekend studio courses to strengthen your craft and hand skills, glass-blowing, jewelry making, spinning, weaving, gilding, woodworking, etc. We need you to work to demonstrate your natural hand skills and your abilities beyond again the studio requirements. Go to regional lectures, visit programs during open house events if possible, ask lots of questions. Again, don't hesitate to contact us for advice. Secure pre-program experience and in doing so, ensure that these offer an opportunity for the demonstration of hand skills, problem solving curiosity, a supervisor who explains why choices are being made ideally. You can focus on examination, on treatment, preventive, service work. All of this is important toward engaging in the field. Develop a bibliography of literature related to key projects that will broaden your perspective and understand the current thinking and challenges and of course read the literature constantly. Follow arts advocacy organizations engaged locally and regionally where possible with their work. Do what you can in your community to promote art and culture and the preservation of cultural heritage. As Rosaline mentioned, join guilds and volunteer to serve on committees. Physiconservators in their labs and studios and network and stay connected with those who are helping you because they want to continue to do so. So build your own core group of mentors and keep them advised and updated on what you're doing and what you're seeking. Rosaline mentioned to join of course AIC and CAC and ECPM. I need to watch out for my time. Let me just wrap it up. I'm almost done. One thing on the global stage is think about joining IIC, ICOMCC and follow the ECROM web the newsletter online. There's lots of really great introductory information there that could help you. So finally, engage with public audiences, volunteer on weekends for local tours. Again doing blogs, doing stuff on Facebook and social media. All these initiatives and activities I think will prepare you well. I know will prepare you well and we certainly look forward to working with you in the future. Thank you Debbie and Rosaline has really great information for our audience and wonderful advice which I'm sure will connect with our subsequent discussion topics. So moving right along to our second topic, we have Ellen Pearlstein of UCLA and James Ham of Buffalo State who will lead the next topic. Ellen and James, what do you feel is the most important for pre-program individuals to be aware of with regard to the field before embarking upon graduate level training? Ellen why don't you take the lead? Thank you very much Michelle. Once again to ECPN for all this wonderful work. I'm delighted to be part of this. So I think Rosaline and Debbie have actually given you a lot of the means that you would utilize to become aware of the field as a pre-program individual to give you this sort of awareness broader awareness before you embark on graduate level training. And I think that actually speaking with all of our panelists, the overall answer to this question really did come down to this kind of awareness this sort of thorough and realistic acquaintance with the profession of conservation and also what are the future career opportunities. And you gain that through your experience, your internships, your volunteer work, your attendance at lectures, your networking, your professional service or courses that you've taken all of which my colleagues have pointed out. One of the things that I think is important to say kind of about the field that you would want to be aware of is that conservation has become increasingly more holistic. That if you are working in a pre-program internship in a laboratory or institute and you are sort of witnessing the fact that that your supervisors are very involved in policy making and enforcing procedures or exploring the environment. If you're doing all of these different things that seem not to be directly focusing on individual items or individual treatments then you should value the opportunity to learn about these more kind of holistic issues and you can do that by requesting to sit in on meetings where these kinds of processes are being discussed or you can assist in doing what would be considered kind of overall collections maintenance and maybe pest management steps etc. So these are all really great opportunities in pre-program work that reinforce this holistic emphasis. The other thing that I can say about the field that I think it's important for pre-program individuals to be aware of is that the field of conservation is now more than ever encompassing much more knowledge from other disciplines than it ever did in the past. So you've heard Leslie and Debbie talk about taking classes in glassblowing or analytical instrumentation or I mean in my case it would be bird biology because of my particular area of interest but I think it's true that students preparing to embark on a conservation graduate study should expect to be introduced to a really broad range of topics enabling you to specialize later on to build on this foundation to specialize later on so that it's important to be open to lots of different future paths all of which fall under the rubric of conservation and there are collections managers, conservation scientists, preventive conservators, documentation specialists, just to cite a few examples. So pre-program experiences that expose you to any of those are very important. Debbie has also pointed out how conservation is increasingly a global field and I too had on my notes here that students should subscribe to the conservation distribution list should visit program websites to look at what's going on globally should look at sites such as the Getty Conservation Institute and the website for ECROM which is ICCROM the International Center for the Study of the Preservation and Restoration of Cultural Property and that will increase your awareness of global considerations and then in my final few minutes before I turn this over to James I was going to shift to actually expectations students should have about what their post graduate experience experiences will be and these are kind of pragmatic it's typical for young conservators to follow their education with fellowships that can be one or two years in duration at different museums or institutes and they necessitate often a location change for the student or the post graduate so it's helpful to be sort of aware of that reality and open to those kinds of opportunities because they're incredibly enriching and I also to kind of make some just too quick advocacy points a conservation is as much about research as it is about practice and not every opportunity that's presented to students maybe has those various facets in balance and it's important for students to realize that they can and should advocate on their own behalf in order to enable students to do research in their during graduate study and post graduate so that certainly wouldn't be a pre-program requirement but it's something to think about looking forward and then finally before I turn it over to James I want you to say that conservation as a field this is a reality it suffers from lower salaries than would be expected given the incredible education that conservators receive and also the responsibilities that are taken on by conservators so I just wanted to say that the American Institute for Conservation is a present embarking on a salary survey which they do periodically to help as an advocacy tool so if you're considering embarking on the field of conservation you might want to follow on the AIC website the progress in this area because that will definitely aid for future advocacy and improvement thank you very much and I'm going to turn this over to James Ham Thanks Alan, that was really great some of the comments I'm planning to make may duplicate a little bit of what you said but in any case I want to thank you at UCPN and the organizers for inviting me and I want to also mention Patrick Varanis he's the director of this program he's working with JJ Ten right now on a workshop in Lima Peru on digital imaging and documentation so getting to the point here of this second topic I have a number of bullet points I just want to go through here but like any professional field of work the world of our conservation is continually evolving but nevertheless the primary demand for a young graduate remains I believe grounded in well-developed treatment investigative and analytical skills at the beginning of the career and I think circumstances of course will vary and it may be possible to specialize in a new area of the field so-called new or neglected area but I think early specialization too deep too fast might limit the possibilities of landing a job our graduates are employed roughly 50-50 between institutional and private practice I think that's something that everyone should be aware of that sooner or later you're likely to end up you might say end up may not be the word but to be in private practice again my career in private practice and then some will switch back and forth over time for various reasons perhaps preferring to live in a certain part of the country or the world for family reasons for personal reasons people will go in or out of private practice as Ellen mentioned salaries really aren't what they should be considering the many years of preparation not only to get into grad school but three years there then perhaps a year or two of fellowship afterwards we to excel in this field we develop everyone really develops a very high level of expertise of course this is fantastic work to be involved with and you might say part of the compensation is the sheer joy of handling fine art and artwork that is beyond public access you might say behind the ropes museums have traditionally relied on volunteer workers historically and paying only some members of the institution especially at higher levels of administration or curatorial department's acceptable wages and this is this is you might say a problem endemic in the museum business and it's tough to overcome another factor I hate to mention it but women are paid across the country on average about 77% of what men are since the art conservation field is populated mostly by women and in ever increasing numbers it seems it's drive to increase salaries in conservation must fight this national trend there are larger issues that work here we may not be able to solve them quickly also I hate to mention but it's true some better known institutions will pay lower salary since they consider the prestige factor their name on your resume is part of the compensation package and as in every other field the ways in which a computer can assist conservators seems to expand nearly every day this is especially true in the area of imaging multi-spectral imaging D by R digital X radiography and the use of Photoshop to manipulate the image data and extract new information about the artwork or object in question so entering the field with at least the basic knowledge of Photoshop seems to be given and another I think a great thing about this field is once you're in it your skills, special talents knowledge almost no matter how diverse have a way of expressing themselves in a manner that can make you unique in other words your abilities will shape your career and your career path will cause you to develop abilities may not have recognized excuse me before and further your career goals may change that's okay I mean how many of us on this panel plan to go into conservation education when we started our careers I for one did not and you know if all emerging conservation professionals would consider ultimately perhaps conservation education is an option that would be a great thing especially because none of your teachers are getting any younger okay that's about it appreciate the time thank you so much James and Ellen that was really great okay and now we're going to turn it over to Peggy Ellis of New York University to wrap up the discussion portion of the program by taking the lead on our third and final topic Peggy our third topic how have expectations on the part of the programs changed in the last five years do you think the way USF applicants has changed thank you Michelle hello everyone I'd like to thank my fellow panelists for sharing their thoughts with me we really have developed a comprehensive discussion of beyond the prerequisites Rosaline, Debbie Ellen and James have listed many many many extra prerequisites and it may sound a little overwhelming to those of you who are listening today and I'd like to look at it from a different perspective as rather than thinking of it as something one more thing you have to do for us think of it as one more way that you will be better informed as you make a very very important decision about your future because you are making a three or four year commitment to graduate school and as also has been mentioned one or two year postgraduate fellowship this is a huge commitment and so these beyond the prerequisite activities that I hope you will consider will actually serve to make you a better informed advocate and so it's not only something that we're looking for it's something that will make you a better person I think it's safe to say that in terms of the applicant process and it has the whole application and interview process has become much more streamlined and transparent with all the programs generally speaking applicants are more fully informed about the actual interview process and what exactly will take place and we try to make the applicant as well informed about what they can expect during the interview day so that they can be prepared but more importantly so that they can be relaxed and as comfortable as possible if overnight stays are involved those programs provide information about who you will be staying with and where and the same is true for the actual interview day writing assignments are often described visual test if one is required will be you'll know that beforehand and so forth usually in order to keep on time the program now limits the number of portfolio items that you can show that including both conservation and artwork this is really to make sure that things are run efficiently and everyone has the same amount of time usually told with whom you're going to meet so you'll have the opportunity to do a little research beforehand and perhaps be able to ask questions when you meet them it's a misconception on the part of the applicants to think that your final artwork or your conservation treatment itself is being judged the admissions committee is more interested in how you handle the materials or how you arrive to your decision for example what went wrong it takes a lot of guts to show something that didn't quite work correctly but it's very impressive if we hear about the thought processes that went into it so submitting the perfectly created artwork where the flawless conservation treatment is not required in fact obviously it won't hurt but we're not looking for fully formed artists fully formed conservators we're more interested in how the artwork was created what materials were used what did you like about the working properties were you working with the properties or were you working against the properties what was your aesthetic intent and did you achieve it likewise if you carried out a conservation treatment as instructed with no thought or decision making whatsoever that doesn't tell us that you'll be a good learner that's really what we're looking for it's our job to make you a good conservator what we're looking for is someone who can follow instructions obviously but we're looking for people who can ask questions and challenge us as instructors we want a student who's going to make us think as well at the end of the day as was mentioned programs are different each program has different strengths but we're looking for applicants who can best meet the demands of our specific curriculum based on each program's history and I've been doing interviews for 28 years now and I would imagine that James has probably been also doing interviews for about 28 years we have a pretty good sense of who is going to be a good student a good student is someone who's curious intellectually capable and will present a challenge to his or her instructor it's also the student who has all those beyond the prerequisites as well we're really trying to get acquainted with you again technology has affected the way programs assess applications PowerPoint presentations are now the norm if anything in my opinion I think they have become a little overly rehearsed so it can be difficult to penetrate through the veneer of the performance and really into the mind of the performer again sometimes PowerPoint presentations can be a crutch and we want to get to know you we want to get to know what makes you tick it's also not atypical for applicants to have entirely electronic portfolios that's fine most applicants still will have a hard copy portfolio and electronic portfolio the advantages of electronic portfolio reports is that it allows you to bring things that are usually non-transportable and it allows you to take different images different kinds of images on the other hand you think that it's somewhat spontaneous discussions about tactility flexibility surface texture and sometimes it cuts down on the type of discussion that presents itself naturally when you have an object in front of you and again we are all object oriented everything is object based so we like to find out how you look and see an object so electronic portfolios are fine we encourage them but at the same time you have to understand that we are dealing with objects object based people academically I think the expectations of the program have shifted with the field as so many of my colleagues have already observed the conservation field is constantly shifting a few examples preventive conservation has very much affected the areas which we have now come to teach outreach and advocacy we now recognize that our graduates are the future of our profession and our graduates must know how to reach diverse audiences nonetheless I can name some specific ones NYU for example no longer requires the language abilities have become somewhat less and this is due to our history requirements someone has mentioned the importance of going to the websites and seeing how these specific prerequisites have changed I know there is a general recognition of growing interest in electronic media there is also an interest in technical art history so I think I'll close there because I see that our time is running out just one more comment it's so easy as an applicant applicant excuse me to divide your world into them versus us I think it's important to remember that the conservation field is very inclusive there are many discussions where we've been voted the AIC, the CAC these organizations these are member organizations we are AIC we are CAC we are the conservation community and it's a community that you are just entering and so therefore I for one would like to extend a warm welcome thanks very much thank you so much Peggy for a really interesting discussion with a lot of great information and advice that I know will benefit our audience tremendously and I also know that you all have a lot more to contribute so at this point we're going to turn the program over to Aisha Fuentes who will moderate our Q&A and she has quite a few questions for you from our audience members so Aisha hey there so this is going to bring our presentation to a close but we'd definitely like to thank our speakers for giving us a sense not only of what is expected of applicants to graduate training programs but also helping them understand the application process and its development as well as what conservation as a discipline is and can be beyond technical skills or knowledge and that's been a lot of the emphasis today that's been great also we'd like to remind everyone that this webinar is being recorded including the question and answer period and will be made available via AIC's YouTube channel so we've got a couple of questions here and they came in via the registration questionnaire from our audience and participants as well as the ECPN Facebook page and a couple that were emails to ECPN officers the first one that I would like to tackle that was a good general question is what are some common mistakes made by candidates during the application process and or the interview is there anyone who would like to speak to that first I could speak to it this is Debbie can you hear me I'll just make a mention one thing and I'm sure my colleagues can certainly add to it before I do so I want to echo Peggy's wonderful concluding comments about welcoming everyone to this community and as we talk about expectations our goal is not to make you nervous or worried about applying to these programs and that you need to check off every single one of these qualities and skills but we hope that it will provide you with some sense of what we're looking for but anyway I thought that was a wonderful comment that Peggy made and I'm sure that all of my colleagues echo that in terms of mistakes and things that I've observed at least this is one that I was thinking about as Peggy was actually speaking that is in the interview one thing that I have seen with applicants is that they work so hard and they bring in a beautiful conservation portfolio and PowerPoint presentation and they're cognizant certainly of the time frame and trying to cover a broad range of their activities and initiatives but they may tend to sort of start off with showing an object and immediately talking about what they did in terms of conservation treatment so for example my field photograph conservation and they show an albumen print that has multiple tears and they immediately start talking about this object was torn and I mended it in this way using this adhesive in this approach. My recommendation would be to step back and really paint a broad picture at all times about these objects that you're working on. What are they, who made them, why are they important why do we care, what is an albumen photograph, how does it deteriorate over time. So trying to connect in your presentation not just what you did but why and the bigger picture kind of thinking that's associated that demonstrates your ability to connect science and art history and cultural context studio understanding of how materials are made to the work and also addressing the preventive conservation concerns associated with that object, how will it be housed in the future, what are the issues associated with exhibition and display what happens if it's in Africa versus in Latin America. Think about those bigger ideas as you present your conservation experience. You'll be asked those kinds of questions but just don't focus only on the minutiae of step by step this is how I dealt with this particular conservation treatment. That's just one comment I have, I'm sure many of us have other recommendations. Thanks Debbie, I think that was good also kind of following off Peggy's comment about it's your job to make us into conservators what they want to see, what you'd like to see beforehand is actually more how we relate to what we know already and how we're able to learn. Does anyone else have anyone else anything else to say about mistakes people have made maybe in presentations but also in presenting themselves or even writing personal statements? I would mind just... Hold on, let's do James and then Alan. I entirely agree with Debbie and Peggy especially that did summarize the situation and we're trying to find out who we are and not so much the minutiae as Debbie says of the actual treatment so reading notes who get it all right is not necessary we want to just hear you talk and learn about what it is you're actually thinking about whether you're considering possibilities you know the why behind it all I guess weren't just taking orders you were actually asking questions at the same time as you were working though and maybe one other point about a mistake is way too much material edit it before you arrive think about what you're going to do review the PowerPoint and edit the 10 pound notebook down to 35 pounds that's all I'm saying okay this is Alan from UCLA Getty actually I completely agree with what both James and Debbie have pointed out and Peggy as well we're very interested in applicants as people and how they're thinking and how they're prepared to learn but the other thing is that UCLA Getty were also were cohort building so we're interested in I would recommend to students to applicants that they also focus on the others other people who are applying as well at UCLA Getty we bring groups of students together groups of applicants together across a two day period and there's usually some point of intersection where all applicants can actually spend time with each other and with our currently enrolled students and we're very, very interested in the way in which the students the applicants display their own kind of senses of collegiality and community so I think that's important to take an interest in those other applicants as well so thank you Hi this is Rosalene at Cleans I would say mistake is an unfortunate word I think when we look at applicants when they come in to talk to us either in a formal interview process or in an informal information gathering process we're looking again at the term holistic as Debbie mentioned in terms of photographs it's not just what type of repair they did to an albumen photograph but why is that albumen photograph important within the context of either the public or the private collection why is it important to spend time on that object we're looking for students that can recognize that there is a broader context not only in terms of conservation treatment but cultural understanding of that object and why it's important to spend time on it now that's a big ask that is a huge ask for a student applying for a conservation program but if a student can recognize that that is an issue if they can articulate to some level why that's important that's a huge bonus in their part I think also if students can demonstrate an understanding that conservation is beyond the treatment of an object it includes obviously treatment it includes preventive conservation it includes exhibition it includes the whole realm of conservation responsibilities within an institution or within a private conservators domain that would be fantastic so that's what we're looking for Peggy did you have anything to add for the other programs on this question of common mistakes and presenting themselves thank you let's save some time for another question you got it ok so the next question that I've been seeing a lot of and it's been phrased a lot of different ways is concerns the required hands-on pre-program experience and a lot of people want to know if the graduate programs are looking for a diversity of experiences in terms of working both in private practice and larger institutions or if they're looking for specific specialization that people have really devoted themselves to just one material class or if they've done a variety of different materials what are the different programs looking for in terms of the materials that people are working on before they actually come to school and where they're working I know that's a huge question this is Peggy I'll answer it but I'll answer it only from the perspective of NYU perfect we do not require hands-on conservation experience now having said that we require a thorough acquaintance with the field of conservation and the materials of art and archaeology so one of the best ways of getting that is through participation experience we do not have any preference whether it's private or institutional I think what will determine that is not the school but the availability and the willingness of private and public or institutions to accept free program interns certainly that's one area of process that can use some attention I think I know many institutions have quite a formalized program of accepting free program interns and others have informal and it's the same with private so rather than getting tangled up in private better than institutional I suspect that that decision may be made for you in terms of what kind of conservation treatment is preferable our approach to the diversity of materials as I said we do not expect you to come as a fully formed paper conservator that's our job to treat you to be a paper conservator I would like to know that you've worked with paper you've worked with ceramics and that you have a natural affinity for what that I think is more important and again this is for your edification you will find out if you like the feeling of pain you will find out if you like three dimensions or two dimensions so it's really for your benefit to try out a diversity of hands on free program experience in order to know for yourself what your strength is or what your natural inclination is thank you thank you that was an excellent answer does anyone else have anything to add to that specifically Ellen coming from the UCLA program yes different thing yeah thanks Aisha I actually do so at UCLA getty we do require that students apply with somewhere between 200 and 400 hours of pre program experience and that said we have no particular preference to whether or not that's you know based in a museum or in a private practice we recognize that pre program internships are opportunistic you know that one has to move in the direction of what's being offered and again really what we're trying to see is that we're trying to see that students demonstrate this kind of collective skill set of you know focus and interest in working with you know with their hands and so I mean I have to say that we've actually we've accepted students who've done archeological drawing as part of their pre program application as part of their pre program internship work we also we also do look for students because UCLA getty is a program that's devoted to archeological and ethnographic materials we do try to look out to see whether students have demonstrated some previous interest in those areas of material culture and so it's I would say it's beneficial for an applicant to try to locate their pre program internship work in a way that allows them to work with indigenous collections or archeological materials or even you know or historic materials that are being interpreted more in a more of a community way so that's that's yeah thank you for the opportunity to answer on that sure and then I was also wondering Rosalind your program differs from paying that people kind of come with their material class in mind do you have anything to add is that different for you in terms of people's program and pre program experience I know it's not required but in terms of what you see from applicants great thanks Aisha yes we're a little bit different in that as you mentioned students apply directly to their major but we also don't have the requirement that students have to have had experience in a conservation lab so we're looking for students who can demonstrate a curiosity about art history archeology materials whatever it is so that they have more of a holistic overview of what's involved in heritage preservation heritage production if you will we're looking for students that would be able to demonstrate a curiosity a knowledge and ability working with different materials and what Peggy mentioned was what are you doing if you're coming into paper do you have experience do you actually have an affinity for working with paper so we're looking for that sort of experience equally we're looking for students that may have taken shorter courses to enhance their portfolios so it might be not academic or history level education but if somebody has gone through a four year undergraduate program in art history or say microbiology or even chemical engineering for instance and they discover oh my god I want to be an art conservator have they done in the year or so before they're able to apply for art conservation at Queens or any other program have they been able to pick up a range of other programs or other conservation or art history or studio art courses that demonstrate an ongoing interest and ability in terms of hand skills, visual acuity and what not so we tend to be a bit more I guess holistic as a word to look for so basically it's curiosity it's intellectual ability academic excellence and the ability to focus on what you're doing and for us an understanding and a recognition that what you're applying for as your major is what you want to do so I guess that's it. Okay good thank you James or Debbie either you want to add anything to this discussion of pre-program experience and what it should look like in order to apply to your programs. This is Debbie I'd like to just add hopefully without repeating and just to say that for our program we do require experience 400 hours at the time of application but the reality is that most of the successful applicants have significantly more than 400 hours. We don't care if it's private or public, institutional or whatever. I just want to point out a couple things one is on our website we try to post as often as possible pre-program and internship opportunities that's one site that individuals can go to as you're trying to sort out where are these opportunities that can be difficult to find at times and I think all of us are willing again to advise one-on-one if someone is located in Oklahoma or in Atlanta or wherever they might be trying to seek out experience they should not hesitate to reach out to us because we can connect to our alums individuals we know who have hosted pre-program candidates in the past also and more importantly really for those in the United States is ECPN and your geographic liaisons who I think are just superb in helping individuals in various regions identify pre-program opportunities so we do require it we do try to help wherever possible to identify opportunities that are ideally paid and then we encourage individuals in terms of a diversity of materials as much as possible and as my colleagues have noticed that are noted that just helps to ensure that you're moving in the right direction you have a sense of what these wonderful opportunities are available to you in various disciplines within our field and we welcome experience in conservation treatment documentation analysis and of course preventive conservation this is James Yes I concur with everything we do not have a requirement of the specific number of hours for pre-program experience and since the number of our applicants are also applying to the other programs almost by default there is about 400 hours in fact we don't ask for we don't assemble a class based on specialty we don't ask for that but it seems that most of the opportunities seem to be in the world of objects and there are fewer in paintings I've noticed that and there's a tendency to go with your strengths in other words if you've invested time as a pre-program person in objects conservation it seems to make sense to continue in that direction but we give everyone here a full year before they need to decide their specialties so that's all I really want to add Excellent thank you I think we've covered just about every part of what people have asked in terms of what kind of institutions and things like that we have a shorter question here actually that anybody is welcome to answer and it's which information in the personal statement can help you in the way that it's evaluated what are you looking for in a personal statement anyone like to answer that specifically I'll call on you Debbie go first I just unmuted myself in a personal statement what are we looking for it's a good question actually and I've been asked that many times it's an opportunity to present yourself in two or three no more than really three pages of your sense of your commitment to the field we'll have your resume and so you need not repeat the resume we're going to study that carefully we'll understand where you've worked in various places but the personal statement provides I guess your first chance to demonstrate your ability to connect all these experiences how have your academic study and chemistry influenced your work that you might have done as a pre-program candidate at this institution or in this conservation laboratory so it provides in a again and not an extended 10 page document but two or three pages four pages at the most I would say an opportunity to share with us why this is a field that you're interested in engaging with why you feel passionate about the importance of cultural heritage preservation and how your preparation has prepared you towards this goal both academically and in your experience this is Peggy I agree with Debbie absolutely but when you're telling us about your passion and commitment to the conservation of cultural heritage I would try to be as specific as possible because it's very easy to say things like art is wonderful I'm thrilled in front of the painting in thinking back of the essays that I've read the personal statements that I've read I've been most engaged by those that tell stories about themselves tell us the story of you and in that story demonstrate your commitment to cultural heritage using specifics and it doesn't all have to be the existing ceiling it can be something very personal I remember one vividly that was about a grandparent who painted and the effort that the applicant wanted to go to preserve for grandfather's painting so tell us the story and I tend to be a bit of a stickler but make sure it's well written and there's no typo thank you anyone else have anything to share with the personal statements what they need to them yeah actually this is Rosalie I agree with both Peggy and Debbie make it personal broad brush strokes in terms of why a specific art genre means something to you it's great it's wonderful but it's not really meaningful if you can identify to a specific story such as what Peggy illustrated or if you're able to say I was working at for example head smashed in buffalo jump I was able to work with X cultural group and I was able to do preservation conservation outreach whatever your experience was to the benefit of cultural heritage overall and this was meaningful to you and that you as an applicant see the broader reach of what you did that is useful that is meaningful to us as an adjudication board it is useful to us if you can see anything broader than just the minutiae of what you did say you were able to demonstrate that you had done outreach with even through YMCA groups working with disadvantaged kids in an inner city you were able to bring art whatever a cultural heritage component to that group you were able to expand the knowledge base that is important because it indicates to us that you have curiosity you have ability you have a broader approach you have team building you have teamwork skills all the rest so those are things that we're looking for in addition to just straight art history so more holistic more broad more overview but again if you can connect it to a story more holistic thank you James or Ellen do you have anything to add on this question in terms of personal statements this is Ellen I would say I agree with all of my colleagues less far and I think it is true that everybody who has gotten to the point of putting in their application so that they're writing their personal statement it typically has gone through some sort of epiphany about that they've found this field through all of the various means that we've been talking about over this past hour you know by looking at websites by taking classes by doing pre-program internships and I think that it's it's very compelling for all of us to read kind of really referring back to what my colleagues have said but to read about what personally for you contributed to that kind of epiphany where you've decided that there's a certain set of skills and interests that you have that actually would translate into your desire to study this field so I think that those constitute really good essays thanks Excellent thank you Ellen Anything or? Wow it's hard to add anything this is all excellent Yeah I guess just in summary we want to hear your story and we want it to be personal we want to see the search the process of finding this career actually prefer that someone find it from another direction might say have a little more of a diverse background and then there is that moment that epiphany when this comes together the disparate interest of an individual all of a sudden converge in this great field of our conservation so I like to read those stories and we are also sticklers for hey it's a chance to tell us that you can write I want to know there's writings of key part of what we do and publishing papers etc and this is your ability to tell us that you can do it This is Debbie can I just add one other quick thought to all of this it's really great and another thing in the personal statement that I enjoy reading is a little bit about a candidate's long term goals where do they see themselves what do they hope to do how do they hope to make a difference do they hope to engage the public work globally you know educate dealers whatever that might be and sometimes there's an opportunity to include that somewhere in that statement and I I look to that and you know are they interested in leadership role what what sort of what are they thinking now in terms of their five and ten year goals Excellent thank you those are really good answer to it but could have been a very short question but that was that was great that was very comprehensive I think probably we're going to be on our final question here let me get about 15 minutes left but I think this is a question that seems like it would be a little bit much broader much than the previous question but what do you wish someone had told you when we're starting on your path to becoming a professional conservator and kind of looking at all the skills and knowledge that you are required to study and to master in some ways but also in terms of your personal journey as a as a conservator what do you wish someone had told you when you were just kind of starting that and considering it Debbie I know you have to leave at 1030 so maybe I'll call on your first or sorry 130 Oh jeez I was just writing notes Do you want me to play some Hold Me Hold Me No no that's okay I'll get distracted now I mean that's a great question and I feel so privileged to be in this field I'm trying to think what do I wish I know as James mentioned I don't think any of us realized we would be conservation educators and let me just say that we desperately need individuals who hope to pursue conservation education in a variety of different ways working with the public working with allied professionals working with future conservators etc. I'm not sure certainly I had that sense although I have to say that I was lucky to enter the field of photograph conservation early on and one of my goals was to teach and so I feel enormously fortunate to be doing that now I don't know what I wish someone had told me I've learned certainly I never imagined I would be working globally but that's been such a great experience and one that I also encourage everyone to pursue I probably didn't imagine that I would be fundraising and involved so actively in advocacy as opposed to sitting at a bench mending photographs and dealing with conservation treatment but I've welcomed that opportunity and I think it's been a great joy and a privilege but do I wish that I had known a little bit more about that future the management and the administrative aspect of my job perhaps but it's something you learn on the job as well so I'm not sure I have such a great answer for you all in that except that you are always learning and every single day every single thing that we do as we teach we learn as we work with other collections we learn we recognize what we wish we had known and certainly the field has changed quite significantly particularly in photograph conservation and there are areas that I wish I'd known more about early on but but I don't have a specific thing that I wish someone had told me I would urge everyone though to connect with those who are advising them and ask those questions and see what they have to say that was a great answer thank you anyone else have anything that they wish they had heard about I think definitely knowing about how much administration and things how much of our job involves actually just working with people not at the bench I think that's a really important thing to hear especially for pre-programmed people who are usually looking for that hands on experience and sometimes getting frustrated when they don't get it hi this is Rosaline in addition to everything that Debbie said which I fully totally agree with I guess my approach to all of this and my approach to life in general falls on a quote that I read in a mystery novel that I can't remember years and years ago but I know it was in the right hand page of the bottom paragraph and the phrase that jumped off the page was flexibility is the key to all happiness and I have taken this for life and for work I started off at Queens and graduated in 1989 as a paper conservator my life has diverged radically since then to working in private conservation and as Debbie said I don't think any of us thought when we would get into conservation that we would be doing conservation education that has unfolded for me but it's being flexible it's seeing what opportunities are available to you it's as I mentioned in my initial discussion at the top of this webinar it's self-awareness where are your strengths where are your weaknesses focus on strengths build on your weaknesses it's looking at what is available to you when I started off in conservation as a paper conservator I never realized that we'd be seguing into digital and I'm sure Debbie would say with photographs into digital photography so the world is changing around us we have to be flexible we have to be adaptable we have to be responsible for the heritage collections that preceded us we have to be responsive to the collections that are being created now and in the future so I guess it's flexibility and I think that's exciting it's wonderful it's daunting it's confusing it's everything but it's absolutely exciting so I think if I could say anything to conservators or applicants to conservation programs now is saying that this is an incredible field we have an incredible base of knowledge and literature behind us that we have a huge amount to do ahead of us and you can be part of it excellent thank you this is Ginza Allen you know Rose only has done really well and I wrote a few notes here and the very first thing I wrote down was flexibility to be flexible and that's just good advice for living not necessarily for those going into conservation always learning being open minded really to follow your passion Debbie mentioned that we're passionate I believe and that's really important and you may find conservation actually isn't the best thing for you but you need to find that out so but absolutely things change you will change and that's what living is all about being flexible successful living this is Ellen yeah thanks it's interesting when I thought about what someone had told you so I think the thing that I wish someone had told me was that the entire world was not going to be crazy gung-ho conservation as much as I was that it was possible that I might actually work with people who did not find that this was the absolute most important aspect and this incredible privilege this work that we do so what that really translates into is when you join the staff within a museum or at a university or an institute or wherever the fact is that you are this ambassador for what you do and you're using your own sort of enthusiasm and knowledge and diplomacy to convince people demonstrate your knowledge and the significance of what you do and it's incredible how much time that is a really important component of our work as well and something that we do so that we kind of bring people along when people over and convince them of what we all know for certain which is that cultural heritage and preservation is totally key so that's actually my statement on this thanks this is Peggy I was very fortunate to have extremely good advice going into conservation but I wish they had told me how much more wonderful conservation was and how many adventures were laying in a waiting for me and how many different directions were possible women often ask me is this a good field for women and I believe it is because it's a relatively young field and there's no established route to a successful career if you go to law school you know you're going to have to join a law firm you're going to try for partner in seven years if you don't become partner your next steps are fairly predictable it's not like that in conservation I saw it as opportunity everywhere I turned and that it was really up to me to be proactive in seeding those opportunities if that is not comfortable for you as James said perhaps conservation is not a good career choice because there are so many opportunities and they're changing every day. Excellent those were fantastic answers from everybody thanks so much we have about six minutes left in our program and I think I would actually just like to ask a real quick question with our remaining couple minutes a technical question and it's what kind of research skills would an admissions committee prefer to see in a candidate? Is there anyone who could take that on real quick? This is Ellen from UCLA Getty I'm happy to take that on. At UCLA Getty actually our admissions committee includes faculty from allied fields so in other words their own backgrounds is not particularly conservation they may be an archeologist or a scientist or an anthropologist that they're part of the professoriate at the university and there it's interesting we were talking about the writing statement earlier of course we also want to see people write with great clarity and correct grammar and spelling etc but we actually we ask for a sample or research sample in the application process and that sample is really being looked at we're very ecumenical it can be really drawn from absolutely any field but we just want to see that the student was capable of going through source material having a hypothesis going through source material citing their sources coming to a conclusion and presenting some form of written work and I must say that most often we encourage students when they contact us in advance of their application we encourage students to take a paper that they've done in undergraduate school or graduate school for which they feel particularly proud and to just submit that so that's kind of my answer on that question thanks Excellent anybody from a program that doesn't have a research actual sample as part of their application and how someone an applicant could better present themselves as a researcher since it's so much of what they do would anyone say that I'll just say we don't okay we don't require the paper though I think that that is certainly a welcome addition but many of our applicants will include that in their portfolio certainly so it's not submitted ahead with the dossier but we welcome papers and research initiatives and projects in all realms just as Ellen said that just demonstrate independent thinking or collaborative work that they might be involved in and that's something that they can include in their conservation portfolio even though it may be an art historical paper it doesn't necessarily have to be just in conservation so that idea the importance of research in all areas is probably emphasized by all of us some may require papers and some might not and I think again that's where our applicants can seek out advice on projects and initiatives that they might become involved in but one point that Ellen made also that I think so important is this whole commitment to professional engagement and dissemination so it's not just doing the research but sharing that with others whoever those audiences might be that's something that we're always looking for and something that's urgently needed of course in our field as we move forward thank you that was an excellent point does anyone have anything real quick to add or should we just anyone Michelle? No I think that'll just about do it Aisha I think you'll join me in thanking our speakers once again and thanking our audience on behalf of ECPN we've really enjoyed having you today so many wonderful points concrete advice and more philosophical discussion and we hope that you'll join us again in the future for more ECPN program thank you everybody thank you thank you thank you thanks very much thank you thank you