 I asked you guys to bring the T-shirts. The scarfs. Come to the booth and we'll give T-shirts. Nobody wants a scarf. Everybody wants a scarf. Who doesn't have a scarf? They give those two people a scarf. This one's showing a who else doesn't have a scarf either. You need one too. This is the prize for showing up to our talk. There's one more. Who was the other person? There's two more. Three more. That's it. We're all out of scarfs. Yay. Finally. Congratulations. We have stickers too afterwards. We'll give you stickers. Someone left them upstairs. You left them in the other room. What other room? Two minutes. One minute. What's your name? I'm Zikforan. You can start without you. We'll make them look funny. What's your name? Mexican? Amigo? American. Okay. Guys, please take care. We'll start in a minute. I just want to tell you a few last things. From the organizational part. This is the last talk. Please enjoy it. Be excited. You can see it will be probably quite a show. I'm looking forward to it. I have you too. Up to this, there will be the final competition and the closing at the room upstairs. D105. I believe it's the number. Please join us for it as well. That will be all from my side. Enjoy. Have a nice time. Thank you very much. We're here. You're all here because you just love developer evangelists. We don't need to be mic'd up. Most of us can talk pretty dang loud. First thing I want to clear up. Even the will cluster just did an awesome session. No monkey suits are required to be a developer evangelist. Today we're going to run this as an ask us anything within reason. Within reason part. Given who we are. That reason is a very small. Universe of acceptable questions is quite large. First what I'm going to do is ask each of us to start with Ryan on the end. He's the tallest. That's why he's sitting at the end of the stage. It makes us all look uniform but we're not. Ryan to tell what you evangelize about around OpenShift. A little bit about your background. I'm from Oakland, California. We consider the capital of the NodeJS empire. I focus JavaScript and Node as my specialty within the OpenShift team. What other projects did you work on before coming to Red Hat? I think that's actually interesting. Yeah, I actually as previously I worked at Second Life as anyone heard of Second Life. Virtual Worlds, okay. I was a Linden lab employee and after that I worked at a company called Eventbrite. They sell tickets online and so I was their first developer advocate for Eventbrite. If you're interested in being a developer advocate start within your own company. Promote your AGI's whatever you have and that's how I got my job experience that qualified me to join this team. Jorge. What's the question? I just came. He really did just come on to the team recently so not quite our newish one but how you became a developer. I'm from Mexico. I'm from Mexico. The Mexico that's in Europe. The Spanish is Mexico. I joined the team six months ago. I've been in Red Hat for two years so I'm bringing real expertise to the teams. More on the enterprise side so I usually not that much with developers from external but more from user consumers of our products. I don't have any other hobbies or backgrounds or side projects so I live in my interview and I got the job. And our Chexicon. Chexicon, yes. So I'm local here. I joined the team. Your name? My name is Marike. I joined the team in one month four years. So I'm four years on the team. He hired me, I'm not sure why. I think I was very active in the communities. I was active with open source. I did Rails engineering. I did Rails consultancy. We'll be consultancy et cetera et cetera. And yeah. As we may get fired if he ever wears a collared shirt again. I don't know what's going on with this today. I don't have any business before so let's get in here for the session. So should I say why do you that's good enough. My specialty will be Rails probably. Yeah. And Graham who is our newest developer advocate. We call them... Not chronologically on this earth. The newest on this team. When was the least amount of hair? Yeah. I was born in Sydney in Australia. So yes I've been with you Red Hat since July. Although how I've been on the holidays so much that time it seems. I came from a company called New Relic where I was basically doing Python development on their agent for the monitoring system. And after doing the program for so many years I was just sick of it and I knew some of these guys. I knew what OpenShift was all about. So a big interesting when I basically said I want to work there and I knocked on their door and kicked it down and got myself in. And what was that little project that you worked on? Had to do with whiskey? So how many of you have heard of ModWizky in the Apache? Really? That's it? He's the author on ModWizky for Apache which is probably the most used... Not anymore. Last ten years? Yeah. Okay, last seven years was the main way people wrote in Python. Alright, so I am Grant Shipley. I have the unfortunate job of managing this group of people that drive me insane and crazy. I started my career as a Java developer at a company called Caldera. Anyone heard of Caldera? I was one of the three people responsible for the Linux lawsuits if you remember that. After Caldera I went to work at a company called Novel where I worked on the SUSE installer. So I wrote part of that for a SUSE enterprise server. Came to Red Hat as a principal software engineer to convert all of Red Hat's legacy Perl code to Java. And then I came over to this new project we were creating called OpenShift and I wanted to try something new to be a developer of Ageless and then we grew and I ended up being the manager somehow. He's actually been here, you know how? He's been here the longest. How many years now has he been at Red Hat? Ten, something like that. He's the oldest member of the event in terms of team age, he's the oldest member on our team. I'm Steve Housty if you want to remember the last name. My background is I actually have a master's in forestry, a PhD in ecology and as part of my PhD work I wrote a lot of simulations and I ran the computer lab for my ecology department. I then went to Yale where I did internal IT projects for Yale where I would build websites, design databases for faculty members. And so then after that I got tired of just doing that and I became a developer evangelist at ESRI it's the Microsoft or the GIS world, Spatial Stuff that was about ten years ago. So I've been a developer evangelist for about ten years and I joined this team after that I was a developer evangelist at Ducarta, has anybody heard of Ducarta? The LBS company they were just recently acquired by Uber. I left before that and I'm thankful and then I worked for LinkedIn for three months because that will be an interesting story if anybody wants to know I was a developer evangelist at LinkedIn for only three months. Three months. Because once you get those, once the stocks are just investing, it becomes very hard to quit. So I wanted to quit before I got hooked and became miserable. And so then I joined Red Hat I'm here a month longer than married. Cool. And I'm Diane Heuler I am the community manager for OpenShift and the developer evangelist and so my background I'm the oldest on the team and the only woman we're working on that and I came from a small startup company called ActiveState any of you ever use ActiveState Python, Komodo and all those kinds of things I was the product manager there and did a lot of R&D work and I was the gal that convinced them to create a fork of Cloud Foundry and turn it into staccato and did all of that work and I worked on that project, the Cloud Foundry the competing project to I'm from the other side and then I got tired of some of the crap that was going on around the Cloud Foundry community and wanted to go work in a real open source world and came over to the red side and started working on OpenShift and I've been here almost three years now doing that and very happily being a lot more open I'm the author of some XML stuff I worked on an XML standard called XBRL so all really boring accounting stuff but it's used globally now in the US, at the SEC in China, all across Europe you can blame me for some of the most complex XML ever written in the entire world and still being written for really boring stuff like corporate reporting all kinds of filings and things like that so I worked on that, I came from a company that was once called Softquad I worked on a project, a product called Xmetal anybody here know what Xmetal is? XML Editors, yeah I did that, that company was acquired by Corel that was then acquired by another small company called Blast Radius and acquired by a company in Japan called Just Systems I've been around so I was at the same desk the entire time it just changed business cards but so I did a lot of XML work before that and during some of that I did a lot of Python so you'll know me on Twitter as Python DJ and if you're following me I'm sorry you'll see pictures of my dog in unicorns and a lot of open shift messaging so that's sort of my background I've been around for a very long time my very very first job outside of university was at Nike the sporting shoe people I would get a lot of CAD cam work and 3D design and on the side I run at Get Makered Labs which is a mobile maker space and so I asked me about that afterwards and I'll be very passionate about teaching kids how to do 3D design so that's what I wanted you all to do I wanted you to introduce yourselves and this has asked me anything I figured I'd see it with a question for our fearless leader what is the rule because we always debate this in our club we have just been here for a solid week in boot camp getting training figuring out our planning for the next year so we've been drinking a lot of really good beer here in Bruno but we all have different opinions about what the role is yeah I think so for me the role is to get developers excited about new technology and how they can use it in their projects we're not salesmen we're not marketing we're actually there to help developers do something and so in order to do that we actually have to know how to do it ourselves so a lot of people think of just kind of just talking heads and that's actually not what we are we actually go in and help developers with code most of the time it's what we do so I made a video about this it's called the feeding and husbandry of developer evangelists you search on this don't do it now please and you look on YouTube that'll be the video where I gave my whole entire opinion my basic opinion about what we are our role is to be a bridge we're not any one thing and yet we're pieces of a lot of things so we are part marketing this is where I disagree with Grant we are part marketing sometimes when I go to conferences and I'm giving a talk it's almost purely a marketing talk it still has to have information in it but it's not necessarily like when Grant gives a talk on Python Grant sometimes goes so incredibly deep that I could never go about what Schwag works do you know what Schwag is that's Schwag the scarves are Schwag and so sometimes when you see it chose you can tell when there's a developer marketing versus non-developer marketing how many of you like this try to think of what's non-developer marketing Schwag I like the coffee cups coffee cups works as they're actually like the squeezy toys how many of you pick them up and then almost never use them right? like that to me is a waste but if you get actually I wanted to get nerf guns right? that's good developer marketing so we're also sales but not really sales so we need to talk to the sales we're also engineering but not really engineering so open-shift engineers raise your hand two, three what am I really good at you can say it be honest complaining bitching so that is my a lot of times we're called advocates and not evangelists and the reason why is because we go to shows these guys sit at their desk all the time and just code we actually go to shows try to get developers to use the product we watch them fail and then we come back and complain at these people the whole time this is crap how can we release it like this we should be not that open-shift has any flaws it's perfect it's perfect because of the complaining we did very early on in the process and then we also meet with PM's as well so Mike what else am I really good at yeah because what our job is with the PM's is to say your road map sucks this isn't helping my users we're developers we bitch about what developers need if someone wants to bitch about what sysadmin needs or enterprise customer or enterprise sysadmin needs I don't care someone else can do that I'm on behalf of my users I'm advocating back into the company I think the key here is the bridge because open-shift being a platform as a service touches on a whole swath of communities and so while we're presenting and trying to connect developers to open-shift and get them all excited about this and get that feedback we're also touching on kubernetes docker open-stack so you'll see us show up at open-stack summits or kubicon and other places where we did a lot of work with mongo dv on v3 so we're all over the map and we're not necessarily experts on any one thing a lot of us are spread a little thin sometimes so I think it's the feedback loop that's really important that we play to the pms and the engineering teams but it's also all that cross-community collaboration so when open-stack's about to do something new with neutron we get heads up or we try and demo it and it fails I don't try to demo it I hate that stuff but Ryan the things that we're saying here clear this is not particularly the open-shift team this is what it means to be a developer advantage so how many of you like to sit with your head down all the time and write code all day you are not going to become a developer advantage you can't do that you can be good at that but you can't do that like Ryan when you were at event pride you were doing some of the same tasks that we do now getting feedback I was actually within that company part of the marketing team but organizationally I was part of the marketing team for a while because they didn't have anywhere else to stick me within the company they also I moved over to the product management team for a while so depending on how your company is structured you may get put within one of these other camps right but it still should be your duty to advocate for the needs of the developers the needs of the users and give that feedback back to the product team so I think we didn't actually answer the question of what we do so what do we do we give conference talks we write sample applications we write reference applications for the product we give trainings workshops, write blog posts we have to have an active twitter following we have to be influential in some type of community like Steve is pretty well known in the geospatial in python etc etc and so we kind of have to be respected in the communities that were targeting so like if you asked me to go and talk about Node.js I wouldn't go I would have run so we build teams around different interest areas but that's mainly what we do conference talks, blog posts stuff like that and use the products essentially you have to be deep usually you have to be deep in two technologies one is the one that you own one is the other one that you work with and then you have to be spread on so many other technologies see what's happening in python see what's happening there all the emerging technologies have to look out into the future but to the technologies always at least you have to be deep should be to a certain level I wanted to interrupt you because you're going to have to just stand in front of me and also one important thing is that we socialize a lot we need to socialize and listen to the people to the community that we so we like to hang around we like to go for beers, talk with the developers because at the end the developers what they do is the kind of things they probably don't like to talk to the real marketing guys to the PMs or whatever because that kind of engaging with them is really difficult we are really easy people sometimes if you go with deep you will want to go to the hotel very soon but if you go with people like that probably you will get and you can tell who's been on the team longer based on our size because of all the time we spend talking with you I'm going to actually disagree with Jorge just a little bit because I have to that's what I do but two, how many of you are actually here because you're thinking about wanting to become a developer nobody? come on now that they understand what's required the only thing is we're not all extroverts so Jorge makes it sound like we're extroverts and I seem like an extrovert right now on stage because I talk a lot and I'm very outgoing and at the booth I'm very outgoing but when I'm going to go home after this week I'm going to sleep for an entire week and I won't want to meet people I don't want to do anything I'm just going to walk in the woods with my dog so I turn it on when I get on stage and it's not that I'm lying it's not like I turn it on and start lying but I turn on the persona and then I turn the persona off when I actually am by myself and if I keep doing this for two this week I'm done like last night Jorge and Ryan wanted to go out drinking and I just went back to my room and watched YouTube videos and laughed a lot so don't think you have to be an extrovert to do this and I hate people all the time it's true and I also hate traveling so I hate people and I hate traveling that's why I got this job and he's our manager and that's actually something else we do a lot traveling so one of the things that's required with this position no matter what is travel you should like at least at some level to travel if you're going to do this and then depending on the company we travel generally less than sales people and essays I would say and consultants right but we do travel we travel way more than engineers I wish engineers would travel more with us because they're actually really good to have in the booth because we get a lot of deep technical questions plus they also get to see direct feedback on their product rather than just hearing it from us we travel anywhere between a quarter to almost a half of time but it's not all year long it's in bursts usually my longest trip was three and a half weeks I think I was on the road I worked every day for 28 days my longest trip is probably about two and a half weeks where I was out of country the whole time and any trip may as long because I'm so thought for bringing in probably a week and a half or so I think I had 32 days with two days one time I met my wife at the airport for lunch when I was flying in and then flew right back down and how many children do you have? I have four kids he's managed to be home a little bad not more than 10 seconds each trip just deep the acceptable boundaries were very very very we can go anywhere where you want with the questions so one of the things we were talking about what questions we were going to ask and what if I don't like public speaking can I still be a developer advocate and I think Jorge you are I think that you can unless you have cojones we are Mexicans so I am Mexican one of the things that he's not really from Spain but I'm not like the Mexican because we're the ugly Americans I basically look like a Mexican you speak Mexican? I speak Mexican what was the question? it was about public speaking it's right above you I was afraid of public speaking and still I'm afraid of public speaking and sometimes you are speaking to the public and your legs shake and you think that you want to overcome so if you want to do it it's just a matter of training and doing it it's still more than that I was actually a professor and a teaching assistant probably about 17-18 years I've been public speaking one of the things Katie Miller she would come with me it was her first year and she's like oh you're so good I could never be like you she was a really great at functional languages and if I sat down and started writing I was like I can't write like Katie I'm never going to program so it's a practice and you just get good at it and you want to turn it on and off and a lot of people say when they see us give a talk like Steve give a talk then we go to larger user groups and then we submit talks to conferences after we've given it 10-15 times so when you see a talk that's great at a conference it's not the first time they have given that talk I think that's a big misconception for me whenever I go on this page I am nervous I go there and then there is no time to be nervous you have to do the talk then you go out on this page and you're like hell was it good or not and you and I was again and it's the only time that you are not nervous we did that one I was just going to say but I forgot because America like you needed to talk instead of me I'm sorry Steve there you go so another thing we talk about a lot we bitch about a lot I have to say is how much coding do we do and what we are always complaining about is we don't have enough time to really do coding that's been our complain to our manager that we should have a month off so that we could write more sample apps and things like that and it's probably the most frustrating part of our job is because we're all in tech because we love this stuff we want to play with the way it go or Node.js we want to build super awesome demos but it's really hard to do that when you're in a hotel room at 2 in the morning and you're trying to get your slides in or a call for papers in or answer 20 million emails I don't do enough actually that's one of the things so we can all be really honest here do you want us to all be really really honest here because I don't know yeah exactly I have no morals so honesty means nothing to me it makes stuff up all the time so for me though I'm a New York Jew and so we are very emotive and we like to share and talk amongst each other I've noticed that when Jorge and I argue which is not even really arguing but we're like this how would you even believe that if America's like please stop the police are going to come we're going to get in trouble it would be really rude to this mostly check audience if I actually engage in that kind of discussion no nobody's going to stop so I've actually gone through a period of depression probably for a very long time but for the last three months I've actually been pretty depressed we did a very intensive road show in the fall and I was burnt out after the end of that and I haven't written much code and that's the part that's bumming me out the most right now because to be an effective developer evangelist you actually have to write code because I can't go to developers and be like this is a great experience or this is a terrible experience or this is what you usually do with any authority without actually writing code every once in a while and so when we've been doing a lot of traveling and not having most of you write code is that right are most of you developers yes thank you so you know that you guys talk about interrupting your flow and that's just somebody coming and knocking on your cube I can't get into a flow state ever basically and so it becomes very hard to write code that is what I'm struggling with right now as a developer evangelist is being able to get back into a period of time where I can be in flow state but I think I think that's part of being an authentic speaker you need to have experience and you want to really defend internally the needs of the developer community and if you're not always giving developers good advice and reasonable meaningful advice and you start selling them a bunch of BS that they don't need you'll ruin your reputation over time right and so you really need to have hands on experience as part of the job I think I'm the only one really do a hand but I'm probably the only one that actually can code because I'm writing and I think I know that we are using and whenever they need some picture there I am forced to do it which is awesome because I can code but I actually probably have a slightly different view to the others on coding because in my previous job you're always flat out coding all the time you might work 40 to 50 hour weeks because you had to that was your job now I may not code now as much as I used to but I'm working on things I'm finding much more enjoyable and that's more important so it doesn't matter to me that I don't code all the time and I'm having these breaks and all things because that's actually good for me because most of the time I want to code on something and then I get stuck and I want to think about it for a while so for me it's actually a really good balance to be able to just not code so much and have that break I agree with Graham I don't get to code a lot I coded last week but like he was saying when I code it's on stuff I want to I don't have anyone telling me what to do I just get to make up something and work on whatever I want well that's not it it has to be somewhat related to when I was working at LinkedIn I needed to work on a LinkedIn sample app when I'm working on OpenShift I can't sit there and go oh I'm going to write an app someone told me that that way you still like your job so well we'll meet after this so I think all of us have like little sample apps that we keep iterating on and playing with and I've got a musical jukebox thing with SoundCloud that I've been working on and trying to get into OpenShift 3 and it's frustrating because you want the back end to run there and then someone comes out with another great red hat mobile and the Feed Henry guys have this amazing you know iPhone app development environment and you want to play with that too and you get distracted because it's like a kid in the candy box at red hat there's just so much stuff and then a call for papers comes for OpenStack Summit oh god I got to try and deploy OpenShift on OpenStack again it's endless what you get to play with but it's endless too so it's a little bit of how deep can you go down the wormhole and that's really so how much, no one raised their hand when they said they wanted to be at the back maybe one person raised their hand yeah one person said the two people maybe what are the rest of you here for I mean I'm serious because I want to know like we can just sit up here in t-shirts but most of you are what are you here for I didn't fix my end because we used to do adventures and not adventures this is a big debate in our community about what's the proper term I think it's just words we both do the same job but some people get defensive and no I think it's different it's more about inside out or outside you know because I've never seen a company where they have both the company usually had developer evangelists so they have developer advocates not both so there's not a dual role it's just how they like Google didn't like the evangelical like the Christian implications of evangelists so they went with advocate before that it was always developer evangelists in an airplane that I'm an evangelist especially with his southern accent conversations after that yes I will have four more Jack Daniels so who here wants to be a developer evangelist developer advocate a few there's more now it's getting better alright good news we're hiring an A-PAC there was only one A-PAC guy in here I don't even think in the morning how much coding you do and I think Diane touched on this is that one of the things that you do need to be as a developer advocate slash evangelist is curious I know developers in general like to chase after shiny objects but you tend to have more of that because you're a bit more comfortable being an inch thick and a mile deep on only one or two things so you have to be comfortable and looking in like what's the new thing I can play with or that's how you learn the new technology well I put this one I stuck this next question in but are there any questions in the audience because we have ten minutes left ten minutes left okay there you go you said that you were both a community manager oh it's a lot of it's a lot of fun actually so I still get to do all the developer evangelists do the calls for papers go out there and advocate for people to use open shift but I also have a role in this specific business unit of being the person, the community manager who connects with all the other open source projects that we upstream in so I get to sit on Kubernetes management community manager calls I get to go to OpenStack and try and connect with all the people there of course people into doing heat templates for me and I just basically have to do all of that plus doing the recruitment and trying to get people to contribute code back I run the OpenShift Commons which is our community a hub so trying to get organizations and everybody so we have now a hundred and seventy seven companies in it we have thirty five companies that have organizations that have contributed code to OpenShift and so the Commons model is a little slightly different so basically I do two jobs right you need a couple more to stay busy so I remember the thing I wanted to say and it's related to what Grant said all the things that we do we all do those but we don't all do them all equally well so when we went through that list don't think like public speaking Grant hates it and doesn't want to do it as much anymore but he'll have to do a little you can do a mixture but you'll have to do all those tasks you don't have to do them all equally well that's all Graham loves writing blog posts thank goodness so we'll be doing both of those tasks but Graham will do more writing and I'll do more speaking and I'll trade going to one conference for Grant writing a blog post so you'll see a swap back and forth he'll write that blog post I'll do that speaking at that conference so he gets to stay home I'll do the follow-ups so the way I follow up with the people I meet as I say you email me otherwise I'm never going to email you that's really hard that's the hardest part for me is you meet people because you're giving talks and they come up and talk to you and then you see them two years later and they come up like you remember everything about the conversation and you don't and that's what makes me feel the worst because there's just no way we meet thousands and thousands of people a year and actually have like five, ten minute conversations with them but we don't remember or I don't I don't take them anymore and they say oh well I'd really like to I was like okay here's my card if you're really interested enough you'll contact, I'll say contact me and if they never contact me which 99% of the people never do then I'm off the hook I don't want that on my soul to have to not contact them so I have a slightly different opinion because as the community manager I have to try and connect you and get you inspired to work on our project or work with our project or do something with us so I tend to be the one that does take your card and you will get an email back from me you join the commons, you can get into on our mailing list try and coerce you into giving a briefing or becoming what we call before an accelerator which is basically an external evangelist for open ships so there's lots of different ways we all work with the external community but yes probably half of you will come up to me and next time I'm in Bruno and I'm really good at making that face I'm like oh yeah I know who you are I think one of the weirdest moments in my life I've been doing this for a year and I was at Java 1 or some conference and somebody came up to me and was like oh I finally get to meet you in person I've always wanted to meet you I'm like what the fuck are you talking about dude and I called my wife and told her I was famous people read our blog posts and stuff and it's kind of a weird feeling when you first get into it yeah so yeah there's another question here he can't do it he always talked it out well I didn't hear the question yeah basically you have different methodologies I call them open universities not sometimes actually I do so like I talk a lot in Asia we let them go there yeah and Asia is I actually will tend to speak more like this when I go to Asia because their English is not as good but it's way better than my ability to speak Chinese or Malaysian but it took me years to get that cadence down and I'll do it sometimes you guys all speak English relatively well but if I go to another European country when I know it's mostly non-English speakers I'll slow down as well it also helps to teach kids I do coding events with kids on the weekends too and there you also learn to change your cadence you just have to get it's practice the same way like oh I'm in a functional language now I'm in a procedural language you need different mindsets the same skill just like that but the problem is that sometimes you don't know so you go the first time to somewhere but you don't know what's their habits so I've been for example in a country where I didn't know that they have this sense of privacy so I was I'm probably I like to talk with the guys so I'm going out having some beers but I couldn't but I tried for the first week until somebody told me you are invading this private space so sometimes you don't know and you don't screw it up You talk about your role when you release that activity and how do you first started OpenShift our job was to get developers using the platform and so we did measure it then but once we got to like 500,000 we stopped so we don't measure that as effectiveness of our team the way we're measured now is based on the amount of content that we create and the survey forms that you guys fill out at conferences to let us know if the talk was good or not it's not just the technical information like people want to be entertained even at a conference they like talks that entertain them because they don't remember anything you say except for one or two things but they'll remember that it was good talk and that guy worked at Red Hat I should check it out I want Lucy to stand up Lucy is our HR hiring person here so you can check in with her she's our advocate there's also a Dev Evangelist manifesto that we wrote that actually came out of our document as a team that I then put up in a, it's an ASCII doc up in, I forget, is it in our GitHub repo or my GitHub repo it's a manifesto that talks through a lot of things we did, like this was not enough time to talk through a lot of stuff like what's a good company to work for what a good interview question what should you expect what should you be expecting to produce we just barely touch the surface it's a relatively new field and so you get into a lot of confusions and a lot of different companies about what's a good developer evangelist what's their role yeah that's also a big benefit because a lot of companies are starting to hire this position which makes it a very sought after position we honestly get job offers at least once a week that's a bad week actually we live in North America and I'm in the Bay Area and Ryan and I myself probably get the most as we're already there like every startup now Vancouver BC and it's like LinkedIn I hate I'm sorry I don't live here you won't get paid as much as an engineer maybe certainly in the beginning you'll be worried about compensation in the beginning depending on the company they will not see you as valuable as an engineer those are some of the things you need to suss out and figure out when you're interviewing too is to really ask them I'm out of time there's no sessions afterwards there's one upstairs what's more important us or prizes we've got plenty of t-shirts and scarves still all right thank you very much no monkeys are required but they're optional you We've been there actually in November. It's like a little weather around. It's a matter of being able to see this opportunity. I've never thought about joining this team. One day in a chat someone said, if you're worth it, you'll say, why not? If you're going to think about it, I think it's going to be great. If you're going to think about it, I think it's going to be great. If you're going to think about it, I think it's going to be great.