 Hello, let's let's return to the search for a little bit. So Joe, it's a happier topic perhaps Because I think your piece I remember reading your piece. I guess it was an early 2010 Kandahar It was really the first independent Journalist and somebody who spent more than a decade in Afghanistan saying hey the search is working the Taliban are being Pushed out of Panjwai and other parts and to me it seemed if I could I even remember I think shortly after talking to David Petraeus and he was saying you know the fact that Carlotta has written this is you know It was really indicative that the search really works. So I guess the question is You know toward it you kind of indicated this a little bit But how would you let's do the thought experiment where President Obama had not ordered the surge? What would be what would be looking at right now? We we might have lost Not we but they might have lost Kandahar I think that's that's always been what the Taliban wanted to do they wanted to take it in 2006 I think in by 2010 they were very close and I I showed they would they were in Mahalojat, which is Really an outlying area of Kandahar and they'd they'd sent in these huge truck bombs They and and all the people were saying they're ready to do a run on the outlying police stations And therefore they would have had they would have got control of a district of the city and and then You know Afghans are Very clever in sensing the shift of power and so if there was a shift of power they they They would have already been reaching out in fact the Taliban and so I think you could have seen the Taliban retake the city or or Certainly and I think general McChrystal's assessment before the surge was that and I'm you know written by people like Fred Kagan and Kim Kagan was that effectively By sort of stealth they were beginning to take over Kandahar city anyway, right? Yeah, they were in the streets people said we see people who we know a Taliban they're walking in the streets So I mean whether they would you know then you you've got the big Kandahar air base So so what does that mean you you try and think well, what would have happened there? Would they've been? Fighting in the streets, but I think they could have taken the city Um and that would have shown you know, they everyone says if you control Kandahar you control the country It's perhaps an exaggeration, but I think they would have been able to Create a shift in people's minds that yes the Taliban is back and we have to work with them And and then the Afghans, you know really would have I think turned against the foreigners And I think that could have been a fundamental moment And I think McChrystal was right in his assessment that if we don't stem it now it will be unstoppable You know during the Vietnam War it was kind of a common view at a certain point that if you if you took away the Cambodia safe haven all problems would be kind of resolved right that that was the Issue and then we started a bombing campaign in Cambodia I mean is it a little bit too simple of an explanation to say the problems are out in Afghanistan a cause by Pakistan Particularly when the Taliban themselves as you know We're completely indigenous Afghan movement that were later You know at that time Pakistan was backing Gulbadeen Hegmatra in 94 when they took over Kandahar and then they kind of switched horses So, you know I'm suspicious of explanations that sort of say well, this is the one explanation that explains everything Yeah, but I don't believe the Taliban when when they did come up would have grown and expanded so far without Pakistan's backing and I try and show that but I think Going back to now, I think they could not have Have done so much without Pakistan because yes, they're Afghans and a lot of young men joined them to fight but without the money without the the sense that There's a bigger power. This is the inevitability of power that makes people join them So Afghans join them out of a calculation It's you know in 2006 they thought oh, they're back. We'll join them When the surge came everyone shifted Soldiers have died fighting the Taliban than US and NATO soldiers combined I'm not sure if I trust those figures Well, let's assume that they're more or less in the ballpark certainly thousands of Pakistani soldiers have died fighting the Taliban Yeah, yeah, no, there's no doubt about it. And I think that I think they're that's why I think they're running a ruinous campaign They're risking their own people's lives By playing a double game what they're trying to do is is Control and use the Taliban project them across the border but some of them and and some of them they've tried to control through Very bad treatment in their own prisons, you know torture of their own former Militant proxies, yeah, they're former assets and so those guys have turned against them Ilyas Kashmiri He was tortured in a Pakistani prison. That's why he's so angry and fighting against Pakistan So so and he was tortured with his father in the same room. They were both tortured So he's mad as anything, you know, so that's why they've got this backlash So it is confusing, but but I think I think they're doing both but I think they're I think the military Pakistani military has got on a on a Mission where they've lost themselves. They're they're trying to do two things which they think can they can still work and They've lost their way because they're just in this appalling mess where their own soldiers are dying and yet They're also killing Afghans and they're hated now in the Pakistani tribal areas the Pakistani military And it's a rain of fear. I went to SWAT and No one dared talk to me. I was with the military and no one dared talk to me I could just feel when was that the fear was palpable. It was at the time of the floods. So when was that? 2008 because there was a time when Pakistan when the Taliban took over SWAT in 2009 my wife was with There and you know the Pakistani military came in they were greeted as an army of liberation Right. Well, I would then the floods happen and actually they were they were terrific in in helping people with the floods because the floods Devastated SWAT, but but I went up with them on a on a flood relief flight and People were too scared to talk and they were all terrified. I could tell of the military. So something that They were they were rescued from the Taliban, but then they were running a very nasty I think very strong Repression do you think the Pakistani military will do an operation in north of Zirustan? There's that's a great I've been talking about that for years wondering if they're going to do it. We saw it more likely now It looked like it was for a few weeks not long ago But I think now it's not going to happen that your impression the military are more in favor than the civilian political leadership I don't trust that no I think I know now I should read quite well, and I know he does believe in pulling back Control of security policy from the military. He believes the civilian government must control All and foreign policy and he believes that the military has to be brought under Stronger control, but the issue at the issue of going into North Zirustan I think he thinks it can can be done a better way So I think he and he said this and Chowdhury Nisar his interim minister has said this that They believe in fighting the Taliban, but they believe there's a better way of doing it So I think what they mean is less double-dealing. Do you think do you think the peace negotiations are a way of preparing public opinion? For when they collapse and then they'll do the operation. I think I think all governments We saw the PP government did that as well the AMP government You have to tell Pashtuns that there isn't a peaceful option before Showing showing moving in force because that's the way they would only accept it one of your former colleagues Dexter Dexter Filkins wrote a long piece in the New Yorker a couple of years back Maybe a year back predicting an Afghan civil war and we both admired Dexter as a reporter now the civil war Just in fact instead of a civil war There seems to be a you know sort of a civics love fest going on where ethnic groups are coalescing around single tickets People are voting across ethnic lines. There's been higher turnout in the last time There was a 60% turnout election in the United States was in 1968 So we're seeing were you surprised by how well these elections went or you thought well I was just in Kabul before the election and I felt it you could feel it It was very it's very exciting Afghans really despite the violence They were just determined and they're very motivated because now after 12 years of Karzai There's a new leader. So they were actually very excited to discuss and and families were discussing among themselves There were debates on TV So that that there's an enthusiasm for democracy and for choosing a new leader But actually I think the second round which should probably go to second one We might see the divisions of the ethnic groups come out more because if it's Abdullah against Ashrafghani, you'll probably see the Pashtuns coalesce around the Pashtun leader and and the Northerners The Tajiks and the Hazaras Coalesce around Abdullah. So you might see a bigger division Do you think there's a disconnect between people who actually spend a lot of time in Afghanistan who basically had the view that this was going to go? I mean when you ask the average or even while educated American about Afghanistan They tend to have a sort of view that it's sort of like Iraq Which is so they impose an Iraq frame on it You know is the media responsible for not in a sense Making clear that there are very very big differences or I mean media obviously We're doing bad news stories. We don't report on hurricanes that don't happen We report on hurricanes that do happen. So by its nature It's biased towards bad news and I don't want to sound like Donald Rumsfeld here Who's you know always complaining about the lack of good news out of Iraq? But the point is is that why do so many if this is the most unpopular war in American history? 82% of Americans have an unfavorable view of Afghanistan more than Vietnam Why is more popular in history with the most unpopular war now in American history see an ampoule in January So why is that? Because we know that there's a lot of good things going on, right? but I think it's because the perception is we're losing and It'd be you know right from the beginning It was the good war It was the war that people believed in and and and saw the reason for it because it was so directly connected to 9-11 And then I think it started to I think things change now. I don't live here I live there, so I'm you you'll you can correct me on American thinking But it seemed to me that all the the disillusion said in when the war was going bad the same with the disillusion with Karzai started when the war started going bad and There's a feeling that the search didn't work Whereas I saw on the ground certainly in Kandahar and the south of Afghanistan. It did work And you know now you have the longer period where you you've got to consolidate those games And that's where things can slip. You spend a lot of time with Karzai when he came into power He was like the second coming of you know He was the greatest person in the world and suddenly he in Washington is the worst person in the world neither Both of these views cannot be accurate So what tell me about his motivations? And do you think it's a good thing that he's not signing the BSA because it basically a president with a mandate will now be signing it I have more legitimacy Well, I love the fact that one of his aides just came up saying he might sign it after all No, I wouldn't be surprised if he wants to maybe on August 31st 2014 I want my name on that document. I think Karzai I try and show he's a brilliant politician He's he's you know, he's been spending his whole time Working to keep on top, you know manipulating everyone else managing the relationship and so on but I do show that You know you make an enemy of an Afghan and they never will forgive you So I can bring a whole book full Yes, and it was also Karzai's own fault for doing the massive fraud and and and then getting angry when it got caught out So I think it was a accumulation of that big mess But yes, he and he but what he does feel is that he felt betrayed he felt the Americans Wanted him out. I think I had a reason good reason to think it seems that they yeah You know it seems that Hobart thought Ashraf Ghani could win Which I never thought but and I can breeze did start, you know entertaining the opposition And so Karzai just saw that as absolute betrayal and and then he was you know Humiliated to admit that he hadn't won the election and go to second round and that when I saw his face that day I thought oh Anyone put him through this because that was humiliation and Afghans don't don't take that So I I felt you know the West handled him incredibly badly You know, I see all his warts as well But I do think he's been made a scapegoat these last 25 years from now Will he be seen as sort of the Afghan Lincoln or will he be seen as the Afghan Nixon or what we did? What will he be seen as I don't think he's great, but you know when you ask Afghans The Karzai years are going to be seen as this great moment of if that polling shows that he's consistently popular We've had multiple you know multiple years of polling. He always looks does 60% I think is usually the average Yeah, and and and Pashtun's particularly You know are upset with him and weary of him and blame him for you know, this whole insurgency Or for not but but given if he was running they would still vote them I mean they will so you know, they might criticize him, but still They would vote for him over could he run again to cup For a third term which is not associated with his two terms And constitutionally it would be possible he could come back for a third term say say in 10 years I mean, he'll only be 66. I'm not sure. I thought it was just two terms But some people say that that's what he's got in mind. He wants to do a Medvedev Putin changeover Yeah, so he didn't endorse any candidates No, his preferred candidate is doing terribly Yeah, but but some people say he's been supporting both So he's kept a foot in both camps Okay, in fact, he's cleverer than that. I think he's he's got relations with all the candidates Except I'll learn he are not buddies. No, but I think he's I think there's been a bit of a reaching out Seems a lot of reaching out will need to be done for that one to work So turning to bin Laden so I guess, you know there are three levels of Assertions in the book start let's start with the ones that seem the most reasonable from my point of view the correspondence with mother Omar and the leader of L. E. T. Now You can sort of that that seems entirely plausible those documents have not come out publicly But there's certainly been discussion of those of those kind of people who've seen them talk about it Yeah, so bin Laden was corresponding with a lot of people why was an abt about as you know including with senior members of al-Qaeda and There was a series there was a courier system of cutouts one of the reasons as you know it took so long to find it and took the United States Arguably half a trillion dollars in terms of our efforts on the intelligence side after 9-11 To even though we really wanted to find him To to kind of get into this courier system and understand it. So this courier system was pretty good So you can imagine that is going to not only I think people with an al-Qaeda didn't know where bin Laden was living It was they didn't need to know So I think you can you could say this correspondence is interesting But it doesn't necessarily it's only doesn't prove the case because there would have been Courier cutouts that all along the way between the recipients these layers of bin Laden The second level is that is is a Pakistani government official Who talking to a US government official who told them the pasture with the conversation that you say might indicate Which is both hearsay and interpretive Right and the third level is the desk the asylum bin Laden desk Well now that seems like of something that's real that either exists or it doesn't exist I guess the question is is why Well first, I mean do we know the name of the person who ran this desk? Do we have any more information about this desk? Is there anything that you can say about it? I'm afraid I can't say anything more. It's clear carefully worded in the book Was it called the asylum bin Laden desk? What was it called? Who's the I? Know a bit more, but I'm I can't tell you because and this is very important that people know It's extremely dangerous for the person who gave this detail as you can imagine there's gonna be a witch hunt already and and I was led to this person by someone else who's a journalist and It's extremely dangerous for that Pakistani journalist. I have in my prologue a quick wrap-up of how dangerous it is Pakistani Jonas 42 I think have been killed in the last 10 years in the course of their work And some as we know Salim Shahzad people were actually you know detained by the ISI and killed There's a lot of beluch journalists who've ended up dumped on you know killed and dumped on the roadside. So it's It's it's dangerous for the people who helped me get that and I don't want to say anything No, I understood and in fact there is a restriction on exactly on names because of that because of what it could what consequences could be Okay, it's a it's a huge scoop if true and We have some of the most aggressive journalists in the world about in Pakistan and the United States And I guess you know the part of me that is very quite skeptical about this is Why hasn't anybody else followed up in any meaningful way on this? Now that you've put it out there because typically when there's a big news story people glommon And secondly, you know, why hasn't the newspaper your newspaper put it in the newspaper rather than the magazine which is a sort of separate entity? Good question. I never offered it to them. I'd say Yeah, I don't know if you've even talked about that now I will say though that when the book came out or the magazine piece We I've forewarned the people who work the New York Times in Pakistan you probably know that Declan Welsh are Welsh are New York Times Western expatriate correspondent is banned at the moment from Pakistan He's living in London and he's actually on book leave anyway, so he's not actually currently writing but I Think so our reporters our local reporters had to really lie low because of the fear of any backlash They didn't actually work on with me on the book, but we were very worried about their safety So I I don't know I haven't talked to the editors as why they didn't follow up on it or write about it But it is difficult. I mean I'll admit I could not get a second source to Confirm this I tried it out on US officials who said you can go with that you can be confident You're on the right track, but they couldn't confirm it so so yet. Yes Some stories you only get a one source and perhaps we won't for some years I believe it'll come out eventually, but it's a very difficult one because essentially it if a Pakistani To confirm it they're committing treason in the Pakistani military's eyes So you're asking someone to to really go against his own country. That's how they view it Well, let me let me add let me add some other notes of skepticism You know, I as you know, I wrote a book about bin Laden and the hunt for bin Laden. I discovered that there was One of the wives who was living on a compound Didn't know that the son of bin Laden was living in the compound I mean bin Laden was hiding from people on the compound now we had satellite coverage over that compound From August of 2010 to May 2011, right? We know that he never left to forget about leaving the compound He never left the second or the third floor, right? So he wasn't going anywhere to meet with people and no one was coming to meet with him So that kind of gives me pause if there was sort of a controller or somebody that he was in touch with in the Pakistani side The other question that you have to always ask is who benefits que bono, right? So on the Pakistani side as we discussed before we came we had a private discussion You know when we share of very is lucky to be alive after those two very serious assassination attempts in 2003 The person who investigated those attempts was Was who? General Keane, so he was in charge of the very serious investigation of the mashara for assassination attempts, which were carried out by al-Qaeda Abu Faraj al-Libbi who was the guy responsible who was in touch with bin Laden is now in US custody as a result of that investigation So the question is, you know Keane's Pasha's boss Why would he countenance a bin Laden desk when he went to great efforts to break up this al-Qaeda ring that had tried to kill his boss? General Mashara and that's that's the who it's kind of like puzzling. Why would the What's the point and again then on the US side? You know there probably is there are a large number of people in the US government Who you know have very dim views of Pakistan and the US government is not a unitary, you know There's a CIA has one few Sancom has another view NSC might have another view so and it's a very large group of people and Lots of people who would be willing if there was a real smoking gun to let it out And why guess my question is if it exists and we have these thousands of pages of documents bin Laden had no idea He'd ever be found right so these documents are pretty effective I mean they were they were his they're sort of bin Laden unplugged right and so if he had a bin Laden desk Wouldn't he have communication with them? In some shape or form. Yeah Well, we've established that nobody's visiting the compound He's not leaving for at least a year that we know of and that's that's when we had satellite coverage over it Right, but I think people could visit couldn't they? No one visited the compound in fact people were people as your neighbors saw the women go out well that the to the hospital And so yeah, well the women there were the 24 people living on the compound, right? And so the curry and the brother and their wives Yes, and they came they came some of the Arab women went to the hospital. We know that as well a Very I don't know if it was in the last Okay, so people might have visited the compound disguises women you're saying yeah, well sometimes they saw The they knew there was an auntie, but we know he had three wives there So it could have been the three wives, but there were The two Pakistani women and an auntie in full black bar Burka who was seen Going to the hospital and and his Yemeni wife gave birth in the hospital So some so the women were going out to see doctors or whatever But you you make some very good points and but let me show that for each point there's another point so He didn't travel, but then we have this recorded intelligence briefing of 2009 Where bin Laden met with so for the after in Kohat in 2009 and now that was in the daily times before the raid I tracked it down off the raid, but it was an anonymously written report. I found the reporter I found the leak that personally leaked it and it came from Pakistani all the Pakistani intelligence agencies civilian and military had seen that report It was a combined intelligence report that bin Laden was in Pakistan So my point is if the Pakistani intelligence know that he's meeting militant leaders and he's in Pakistan Why weren't they hunting for him harder? That was really I think they wanted to find it necessarily the second thing is Libby Yes, they did a very hard investigation tracking down Libby. He did try and kill Michelle at the time I totally agree with you. They they did a very serious investigation. They found Libby. They tracked him They got him but he Musharraf also writes in his book that he had he lived that they nearly caught Libby in a Butterbird and he had the use of three safe houses in a Butterbird and they raided the wrong one and he got away You know, they raided one and he was actually another and he escaped and Musharraf writes about that You know, so now what why are they checking every house in a butterbird? That's just when they were building. Well, this is that you I mean this goes to the question of competence Don't give me that one. Well, no, but it's true. It's like, you know, but yeah, I just don't buy that And I've got a cabinet minister in my book saying don't believe the our forces, you know A Pakistan state is more competent than anyone else would believe, you know, they and there's another minister who says after the Lama's jeep attack or siege He says to an ISI general every morning You have on your desk the minutes of who I met the night before and what we talked about So don't tell me you don't know that there's weapons and militants in Lama's jeep just a hundred yards from your headquarters You know, so this this the idea of they're incompetent. They're not there. Well, all human beings are incompetent I mean, okay, but they're also brilliant. I mean the ISI are brilliant. Well, no, I don't accept the idea that they're brilliant I mean that that because I mean we if they're brilliant Why would they be doing this strategy that you point out which is so self-defeating? Well, but they they think they're gonna achieve Through chaos what they want to achieve which is dominance of the reason I agree. I think it's a ruinous strategy, but I think they really believe in it I guess one final point on the on the bin Laden issue You know Abrahmadhan's last official act After 27 visits to Pakistan was to testify before a Senate committee Very and Bertrand say that the Hikari network was owned and operated by the ISI Presumably he has access to all the information that secret information the United States has right It's kind of strange He didn't take this opportunity to say they also were harboring bin Laden since as you know that that was yeah It went down pretty badly in Pakistan that that public statement Yeah, I think I think the Hikari Mullen was particularly angry about the Hikari on because he just had and I showed in the book You know when before he he said made that speech. They just had these devastating attacks in Afghanistan There was a huge truck bomb that went into a base in Waradak and I mean it was it was unbelievable They didn't kill many people but they wounded I think it was 90 plus or 70 plus I'd have to check who's more angry at the economy network than al-Qaeda Well, he just had these two devastating attacks So there's this truck bomb that injured 70 plus sold American soldiers and then they had this attack You know one of these what they call a complex attack Very close to the US Embassy to the point that the ambassador had to go into a bunker for 24 hours And the battle raged right in the Kabul around the American Embassy and people going to the consulate got injured by mortars And they'd taken up a sort of high-rise half-built construction site and rain rockets down on the embassy So those two and they I think by then you know They were they were tracking Badruddin Harkani's phone For ages and and so I think they heard him directing the attacks. They knew he's calling from was iris down They know he's closely in contact. I mean they knew Badruddin Harkani was meeting with ISI officials So so I think Mullins anger was because the proof was so clear. I think You know, I don't know what Mullin knows about Obama, but I've had some very senior military people write to me after my story saying You know congratulating me and saying you're on the right track. So I think there are some I don't know what they know Yeah, but I I don't think just because he didn't address the Obama issue doesn't mean he knows things I just think he had he had very very clear evidence that made him particularly disappointed and angry about the Harkani's Because it was directly affecting American lives in Afghanistan and and what kind of ally is that that's doing these things Right. Well, what kind of ally would harbor the mastermind of 9-11, you know And you know, I because that was obviously when I reported my book I talked on the record to Admiral Mullin Mike Lider who ran the National Counterterrorism Center Hillary Clinton who was Secretary of State at the time General Cartwright who was the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs Michelle Florene who has had a policy at DoD Mike Vickers who was in charge of special operations Tony Blinken who's now the Deputy National Security Advisor Dennis McDonough who's now the National Security Advisor of the chief of staff This goes on and on and this was the first question You know, I had it's like did was Pakistan cognizant have been loving being there And this was a huge debate that they had at the NSE. They had five meetings And you know that all these people I mean, it's not like they are some of them are not fans of Pakistan They all university said they did not know Cameron Monto who was ambassador at the time He doesn't know anything I mean, I would go to his off-the-record briefings and I would have to tell I knew more than he did I mean, so so some of them I think are sitting in Washington. You're saying that the head of the The ambassador of Pakistan. I knew more than he did That may well be the case but I'm asking about you're saying that you know more than the CIA the National Counterterrorism Center at St. Com DoD the NSE the White House Well, I'll say that that one senior official who I did try out this this desk special desk on You know was amazed because he said we we haven't got that but He said it makes sense. He said you should go. I guess that's about it It makes sense But it feels like for a lot of people that it's something they want to believe but that's theology That's not evidence. I think not they can't necessarily get it You know what Pakistani is going to say to an American that reveal that You know it came to me differently that you know, it's someone who's who's cooperating with a longtime Pakistani source So, you know the and persuading To let me have it is is different to giving it to a Pakistan to a CIA official So I think there is a difference in motivation of telling a journalist telling a Pakistani journalist first Than telling a CIA official. Okay, but I think also Let's see. It'll I'm sure it'll come out. I really, you know, I really do believe this But I I do not trust all all the officials because I think I was horrified to hear that security a national security aid In the Bush administration said they used to sit around for ages and this was 2006 Discussing is Pakistan supporting the Taliban or not and that shocked me so much. Are they still discussing it when you know 2003 2002 it was clear Um, I I talked to an American ambassador and I asked about I was getting this there's these stories from these Taliban who were being forced to go back and fight or told They would be imprisoned or even worse. They were threatened to be killed And I I asked an American ambassador and I was told oh, I've never heard anything like that And I thought are you stupid or you're not you're not doing your job or you're lying to me? I mean it there's a level no, but there's there's really a level that is serious And I think sometimes it's it's lying Sometimes it's just not wanting to say on record something to a journalist that is just too sensitive but sometimes I think there's there's the head in the sand and and But but actually what I really do want to say and is again I mentioned it in the book We shouldn't spend all our time debating the toss on this Do you believe it? Do you don't because actually what and I have a Diplomat saying we shouldn't have spent years and years saying are the pakistanis supporting the Taliban or not We should have actually said this is happening. This is what it looks like on the ground What is our policy and I think the same with this because I believe Zawahiri is still in pakistan. I know he is actually And I actually had quite a recent very interesting tip that that he was in Balochistan And So it's more not who's hiding him and why but it it's more. What do we do about it? Yeah, that's I think Um, I think that's really the main issue that we should be good looking at. Okay If you have question raise your hand and identify yourself and wait for the microphone. Where is the microphone? So with that gentleman there Tyler good Good afternoon. It was very stimulating conversation I was in a in pakistan as a journalist as the soviets were attacking afghanistan and even during that time Uh, the arab's were coming to the soil of pakistan and they wasn't Getting equipped and going to konar and gelal about province and they did lots of atrocities there that I I'm an eyewitness to that However, the bureaucracy From the united states And the bureaucracy of pakistan Didn't want to admit anything which is happening happening beyond ordinary at that time, uh, mr. Oakley was the ambassador of united states to pakistan and The all these atrocities were getting What happening in the soil of afghanistan at that time this whole movement Or of fundamentalism was not that strong. It could be controlled But nothing happened Okay, we're gonna have to have a question because you have 15 minutes But my question is now It's going beyond the point that's only the threat of taliban with the new generation of the military in pakistan and isi There is a do you think there is going to be a nuclear threat by the terrorist From the pakistani soil Towards the entire world Doesn't bear thinking I don't think so. I mean I I still When you work in pakistan and you you Interview the military you there is a great sense of responsibility And and a great pride About the nuclear arsenal. Um, it's it's untouchable journalists are not allowed to write about it much and certainly not about allowed to criticize it or Or look deeply at the proliferation problems under a kuqan But I do think at the same time there is a responsibility there and so Although I am very critical of the the use of proxy war as a as a A tactic in afghanistan and and kashmir I think And I perhaps it's wishful thinking but I think the the pakistani military has Has has a sense of responsibility on on keeping its Nuclear arsenal Independent and untouched they don't want interference from foreigners But I think as the ultimate deterrent And they they they will guard that jealously, but I think and I hope Sensibly Lady here Hi, my name is ann rutherford and at the end of lone survivor. It was noted that the Pashtun afghani protected the american because he was a guest And this was also said of the taliban that they protected the al-qaeda because they were a guest If we had known more about the people and dealt with them as a people things would have been different And do you think that they have figured out more about the afghans? as a people and to to help them and to deal with the The insurgents you mean al-qaeda have or So who's they have worked out? Oh, or you mean the americans? Yeah, you have the americans have americans worked out. Well, certainly you can't you can't spend more than a decade In a country and fighting and not learn something. So, um, of course what's impressive is that Um, I think the american military has learned a great deal over the over the both wars The iraq and and afghanistan so they they fight better collect more cleverly. They they did you know, they worked out the whole revamped the cancer insurgency strategy under patreus And you get a lot of linguists and and then amazingly you see these anthropologists going alongside the soldiers Into villages advising on cultural Issues. Um, so there's been a great deal of learning, but at the same time you see how polls are part Um, people are in the handling of qazai in You know in also the the there's an attitude that Afghans can't be trusted or they all lie or you can't believe them I I still get that a lot even when I use afghan sources and people Seem to think that they're only worth half of what an american source will be. Um, so there's there's still huge cultural differences and huge Um, uh lax and I'm sure I'm guilty of it as anyone Um, but I I think there has been a learning curve and I think there has been great trust built You see it in some levels. Um With the american soldiers and the afghan army, you know, you see You see them working together like I've never seen before which is impressive. Do you think the bsa will be signed in september? Yeah, maybe even july okay, that'd be great. Thanks gentlemen Hi, uh, my name is mosin kamala working a law firm here. My question is from you madam You said that Pakistan They might be protecting or the new where iman al-zawari is in pakistan But I want to ask from you. What do you think pakistan is thinking by keeping iman al-zawari? It's there. What do you think iman al-zawari has some kind of bargaining value for anything? Like with the end game in owanistan like pakistan can negotiate something with us or guanisana and man al-zawari On one side and so on the other side pakistan army is battling against al-qaeda and taliban's and they're dying every day So what sense do you make out of it? If at all? Yes, I'm still wondering that but the two best Mines that I I or sources that I had on this gave their explanations zia din but who is a former ISI chief He's accused masharaf of Hiding bin Laden in 2004 and he he said he did it to Really to as part of his Overall aim that masharaf had which was to cooperate with the west Get the the financial and the military assistance that he needed and Prevent you know He was given this ultimatum that originally you're with us or against us So he wanted to be with the west he wanted to cooperate. He did cooperate on some of arresting some al-qaeda people but he kept Bin Laden for a rainy day In other words keep keep the financial assistance coming will cooperate, but you know, we'll keep this guy here So one day maybe we need to give him up or we control him at least so it's a little protective custody So that's one theory the other one that was given to me by a senior ci a american official was He thought that both kiani and pasha because by this time masharaf was out of the picture Just could never give up bin Laden because he was this this symbolic figurehead to the arab world and to the muslim world and that they did not want to be Members of a very big important Muslim nation to be the ones that betrayed such a man and to give him up to america so that they They just couldn't do that and didn't want to be the people who did that and and that Um, that also makes sense. So I think those are two very thoughtful ideas on why they did it And I think it could be a bit of both But these are theories. They're not yeah, they're just but they're people even more steeped in it than me as to why what the motivations were Yeah, I've got two brief questions. Um, I spent 11 months last year in Pakistan based in Lahore I was chief of party for the environmental and social assessment of kurum tangi multi Purpose project in north waziri stand And we did a lot of household surveys Satellite imagery work My my two questions are um Why would one any anyone really think that apart from the durand line The fatter federally administrative tribal areas are anything You know functionally part part of pakistan because Our impression was that they're not and The other is do you really think the isi military intelligence and the Political parties actually share information Because our our impression was they don't they like For us they were completely separate entities that they're sort of like symbiotic organisms that Don't parasitize or kill each other, but they sort of coexist Thank you I'll buy your book by the way. Thank you so much. That's very kind We've got seven minutes left. So we're gonna that's there's a great questions I think fata is um, it is part of pakistan in that I think the durand line should be recognized Eventually by by the afghans to resolve part of this problem, but I agree. It's uh, it's very cut off It's lived under a strange code for so long since the british And so the british created it as a as a buffer Region and I think unfortunately, he's still like that and and the tragedy is that there's one million Pashtuns who've left fata and who are now Camped in the old afghan refugee camps and in peshaw because of because of this reign of terror and this this fighting Which is just so horrendous And I think you're absolutely right on on the military and the intelligence being so separate from the politicians And what's shocking is when you talk to the politicians How little they understand or know about The taliban about everything that's going on because they're really kept out of it and and parliamentarians are too Which is partly why we're at the book I really did want to start the debate inside pakistan on this because many pakistanis are ignorant Of what their own military and their own intelligent services are actually doing Lady over here Yeah, yeah, sarah Sarah chase from karnagian dalman. I want to try to Spin a thread that might go back to the final point you made Carlotta about policy so peter You suggest that a lot of the people you talk to Have negative views of pakistan when you name them I'm not sure it actually comes out that way So I guess the question i'm trying to ask is is it possible that carlotta's thesis is so gigantic It would imply such a gigantic Overhaul and re-examination of u.s policy that there's almost a an intellectual Blockage against thinking about it or even against asking some of the questions that carlotta's asking and the The point that i'll just make to to As not evidence but as an indication is the famous photo, you know with the whole cabinet And the bin laden raid and we all heard that president obama Actually thought through whether there ought how many helicopters ought to be going on this raid now You look at the building And you look at The way it was situated and where it was situated on the face of it. It looks like a safe house So my question has been for a while Why was president obama focusing on the tactical details of how many helicopters ought to go to that thing Rather than saying gully if this is what it looks like it is We have a gigantic rethink of pakistan policy that we ought to be doing so i just ask both of you to reflect on that Well, he didn't want his presidency to go down because i'm wearing enough helicopters I mean, I think it was pretty simple. That's why he was interested in the tactical Yeah, right, but if if he really believed that they knew but they I mean look, I mean I just gave you Maybe a half a dozen people. I talked as you know sarah very well. I talked to Many many more people on the record and some on background. They all universe none of them Absolutely none of them said we have any evidence to believe That the pakistanis knew now they could all be wrong But the problem with that is that would involve a conspiracy of people all over the u.s. Government all saying hey You know we we don't believe this or we we don't have any evidence And I don't believe that the american government is too big too massive To get its act together in such a way when conspiracies happen. They come out. We live in an open society So if there is this information within the nation, I have no brief either way. I mean, I'm as interested as you are But so far there's no evidence. There is somebody there is one person who's told carlolla about this desk That isn't evidence. Yeah, but I think you're I think your use of evidence is wrong because this this is a secret This is a a covert thing. This is well watergate was a secret too Yeah, but if we were in a court of law, we would not we wouldn't necessarily matter if we don't have the evidence But we would we would put put all these things together and and persuade a jury and here we all are Yeah, but a jury would would acquit if it wasn't actual There was a you know, but they would they would understand the circumstances. They would understand the overall Accumulation, I don't think we disagree that there is no evidence Yeah, anyway Right, I I quite agree with you that obama Should have done a rethink but he actually did didn't he when he came into office he He you know, he spoke so convincingly that this was the right war that this was the thing we should concentrate He he he really he you know that woodward book that exposed so much of what they knew about pakistan and what was Was going on meant that in my view. He did rethink it or he did look at it in a in a refreshingly Clear way, but what's amazing since the obama raid? I'm sorry. Sorry since the bin Laden raid Was that we've gone back it seemed to expose everything but actually we've gone back to this treading on eggshells as one person Mentioned it to me in the book Of of not doing anything to rock the relationship and that above all the relationship with pakistan should be continued and therefore, you know engagement and careful handling and not rock the boat and that does seem to be a me a missed opportunity because You know in my view that It's this sort of thing that will rock and change things in the end and Isn't that what we're waiting for? gentlemen over here Just a small small note, you know obama has visited dozens of countries He's made a point of not visiting pakistan the idea that we have this great relationship with them that we're trying to preserve It doesn't make it No, but I think I mean what I mean is the security the cia isi relationship. That's what The concern is to to to hold that together and I think those guys And the diplomats around them are are being listened to and are driving it I'm Ahmad mejidir a fellow at the american enterprise institute My question is related to what sarah said. Yes, perhaps there is no Solid evidence about pakistan's complicity and hiding bin eladen But there has been enough evidence About supporting other terrorist groups like the haqqani network, which has killed more american soldiers in afghanistan than al qaeda has So why has that not? Brought any major change in u.s policy over the past 13 years And second question that I have is completely a separate one when we talk about the issue of extremism or terrorism emanating from pakistan We usually just confined that discussion to wasidistan For good reason. There are a lot of different dangerous terrorist groups there But if you see the population of the seven tribal agencies, perhaps it's four to five million Making two to three percent of the country's population We usually don't talk about just other growing trends of radicalization and extremism in Most more populist places like panjab and karachi. So do you see that any any are these trends really happening? Do you see a more? dangerous threat Under rising emanating from pakistan facing the western national security interests. Thank you It's very good question and I do come to it in the last chapter of the book I am actually extremely worried about that because When you live in pakistan and and and you know You know people you you you hear all these stories of the radicalization in punjab People like sehfula akhtar this this really notorious character who's who's who's being very close to the isai all his life He's building another big madrasa in southern punjab He's still free. He's you know, he's done He's he was behind the huge bombing that nearly killed benazir when she first came back in karachi I mean why why these guys still Allowed to carry on and he's so he's now indoctrinating and you know encouraging more Punjabi villagers and You know the latest story that kathie gowan wrote in punjab, which she's you know veteran reported there Is that they're all talking about the next the next great offensive is in afghanistan post 2014? They're all gearing up for that You you hear of they're moving into cind, which is just unheard of in you know five ten years ago So um, yes, it's very worrying because it's a huge country in a country. I love pakistan And it's very very worrying that this is continuing unchecked and we're back to the policy thing that that You can't walk away from from afghanistan. You pull out the troops this year. Maybe but you if you walk away This this juggernaut is continuing and it's not stopping, you know How how many thousands of of pakistanis have gone to fight in syria and they've taken the polio virus with them? I mean it's It's it's really It's it's a very alarming and i'm very worried for afghanistan But i'm very worried for pakistan because it's you can't just turn off the tap It's it's it's got to be a massive policy change in both in all those countries We have run out of time and presumably people want to buy your book and have it signed by you I know you've got a tight schedule. Thank you. We have a lot more questions, but that's uh, uh, because there's so many good questions to ask So thank you. Thank you very much