 Thank you. I'd like to call this meeting to order of Common Committee of the Whole March 14th 2016. We'll take roll Ballinger here You're Donahue here John here. I'm in here. Hi to men here Herman Oh, they're here. Sorry here feel here. Trust her here. Well here 14 present Please join me in the Pledge of Allegiance All right, thank you My I have approval of the minutes from November 9th, 2015 First and approval chair says Approved under discussion no discussion Move to continue All those in favor Against one All right, thank you. All right 1.5 public forum on agenda items Please state your name and address and you'll be given five minutes. I Could five or three. I thought it was three I'm sorry three. All right, Jason Peters 1225 Kauffman Avenue I wasn't planning on speaking today, but um, I just wanted I spoke last Monday Tonight you got a big decision as we go forward with a shaboy again My thoughts and we'll see you Have to doing this for a couple years here. I'm all right. Um, I really think Deciding on spending 11 million dollars to refurbish a building Is that gonna extend the garbage tax the rest of my life? Is that gonna extend the wheel tax the rest of my life? It's funny how two years ago. We were a city with We're really low in funds and now we have all this money I Really think Well, I think it's gonna happen is the 11 million dollar to refurbish this city hall It's not gonna happen. I think you're gonna rebuild for 7 million and it's gonna be like look what we saved I think that's the plan in the works I also think that the architects who I have a lot of respect for are gonna come up and give a scare tactic Where you got to build now or you're gonna be paying more later My question to you Common counsel is this we went through last summer with Alderman feel and it was another all the person Damn, I think we went through a building. You already own and That is a shaboy an auditorium in Armory and the architect there said it would cost three million dollars to refurbish I Still cannot understand if you're so bent on spending city taxpayers money You wouldn't refurbish that building use that for City Hall And it's a win-win for the residents that live here that can enjoy it on weekends and weeknights That's a no-brainer to me for whatever reason. I think the reason is is the location of the Armory If that was downtown here You would save that building and it's being a a little bit hypocritical to say I want to save iconic buildings The post office the courthouse in this building, but you got one you already own and we don't care about that one We have two items for discussion and possible recommendation to the common counsel 2.1 is the presentation by J. J. R. Smith group on the findings of the Harbor Center Marina wave migration study and passable Possible recommendations to the common counsel I'm selected alternatives Thank you Just as a brief point of introduction you'll recall about a year or so ago the council directed staff to go out and hire a consultant or look at coming up with a plan for dealing with Ice issues at the Harbor Center Marina after we paid somewhere around 350,000 for dock damage What we did was we went out and wrote a grant to the Wisconsin historic Wisconsin coastal management program They were funding 40% of this project and then we went on our RFP and hire J. J. L. JJ our consultants out of Madison to put together commission a study and what they did was and you'll see it shortly as they've developed this model and run different scenarios through this model on wave flows and Different kind of agitations that are happening in the marina what we're looking for tonight is really an open dialogue This is a chance for you to ask them any concerns and questions that I know some of you have asked me over the course of the last Few months as to what if we did this? What if we did that? So this is the time to do that after they do a short presentation on their findings and then ultimately recommending a selected selected alternative to the common counsel Which once you get to that point you'll see what the different ones are so at this time I'd like to turn it over to the team from J. J. R They can introduce themselves in their background briefly and then I get into the presentation and then after there can be some dialogue on Questions one of the things I will say is that the team that worked on it on the city side was Director Bevel and myself Chris marks from the marina in Jim Amorio So if and Chris marks Dave and I are in the audience So if you've got any questions for staff on any kind of different changes and stuff at the marina We'd be happy to address those at the end. So I'll turn it over to J. J. R Hello, I'm Margaret Boschek. I'm a coastal engineer with Smith Group JJR. This is my colleague Bill Brose Yes, I'm also an engineer with JJR and vice president Have been involved in projects similar to this pretty much my entire career We're going to present the wave mitigation study to you and run through everything that we developed all the different models that we've used Results of those models. I'll show you some different alternatives that we can look at and Then open it up for dialogue when we're done. Okay so These are your main issues. I'm sorry. It'd be nice if you could see that I can't quite see it but what we were told was One of your main issues was of course the winterization of your dockage every winter you sustain We understand that your dockage is about 30 years old and is original to the marina That dockage was supplied by flotation docking systems And as you can see from the pictures, it is a wooden dock system with wooden skirts that run down the sides of that dock The center picture and the picture on the right show damage that you received within the past two years And that damage is mostly due to the twisting of the ice that is encased at the dockage and Annually you are spending about $60,000 in renovations on the dockage now that is not every year that is an average in fact as Chad had mentioned two years ago. You spent close to $350,000 in repairs to the dockage which of course is an issue and that's what we were asked to to look into Let's see we also were asked to look into any kind of negative Impacts from the dredging that occurred in 2013 by the Army Corps and EPA We will talk briefly on that as well So these were our main tasks We wanted to perform a bathymetric survey of the marina We had information outside of the marina that was taken recently by EPA and the Army Corps of engineers and outside of the marina The federal breakwaters that's all LiDAR Information which is very good and has been taken within the past ten years So we we did that we established the existing conditions looking at winds waves currents any type of Forcing issues that are happening in and around your harbor and basin We deliver. I'm sorry developed preliminary concepts We sat down and no crazy ideas were off the table as to what we could do to mitigate this issue of the ice Encasing your dockage and causing these problems We perform numerical modeling of the preliminary concepts that could be modeled Namely agitation and current forcing issues were run through numerical models And then we are going to and make some recommendations Based on the cost estimates and a cost-benefit analysis of all of the concepts that we reviewed So first with the bathymetry on the left you can see an image of the orange area Which was surveyed most recently by an outside consultant and then we use navigation charts the Army Corps on dredge records from 2014 and the LiDAR data that I mentioned the Federal channel is dredged to a minimum of about 16 feet and sometimes is dredged down to 18 to 20 feet so The federal channel had not been dredged for a number of years and this was the first time I understand within the past 15 to 20 years and it just happened to coincide with two very difficult winters that we all remember very well This is the combined Bathymetry that we put together through those multiple sources and this formed the basis of our numerical models moving forward So you can see it's rather deep outside of those federal breakwaters, but once you're inside it does show up However the navigation channel because it is dredged and kept a little bit deeper the wave energy which Penetrates deeper into the water the longer period waves can actually penetrate all the way to your entrance Which is located on the south side of that marina basin So running through the existing conditions these are the areas that I will focus on which include the water levels the waves We deployed some instruments to get some real data so that we were able to calibrate our models We looked at winds the river discharge and of course your number one issue, which is ice So looking at the water levels This is water levels from 1918, which is when we started recording water levels Sheboygan does not have a tidal station, but these are Extrapolated from Kewanee and down to Milwaukee and there's a very small difference in between those those two locations So you're looking at highs that happened in like 1986 where our water levels were very high and our lows that were actually happening more recently in 2012 and 2013 the the highs and lows do play into Erosion and things like that, but for a basin study like this. It's not going to change your waves Significantly your water is deep enough that it would there was no additional shoaling or refraction or anything like that due to water levels But it's a it's a nice thing to look at and we use those in our models as well So your waves we looked at a offshore virtual wave buoy There is a system called wave information studies and it is run by the Army Corps of Engineers They run a model of the entire Lake Michigan Basin and they pull off points that are then virtual wave buoys the wave buoys Based on these models are in very good agreement within 5% Over the the years that they've been doing this and this is a wave rose What you're looking at on the left side is the directions the waves are coming from and those different colors Correspond to the intensities that you also see on the legend now, I apologize. This isn't meters, but I'm sure most of us can do the conversion on the right side We're only looking at storm waves which are waves bigger than three meters and again This is offshore those waves are going to break down by the time they come near shore But we do see that most of our storm waves are coming out of the north northeast We do have the South-South East waves that are coming in which if you remember the the shape of your basin and your Federal breakwaters those waves are coming through that entrance a bit more unimpeded and are able to impact your Southeastern entrance into your marina basin So we deployed some instruments to collect data for about six weeks There is an acoustic Doppler current profiler which records not only water levels wave directions and wave heights and that was located within the entrance of the marina basin We then put a second wave probe, which is just a pressure reader So it's only looking at wave heights. It does not include directions, but it also includes water levels We put that further inside at the end of dock e which is in the middle of the the marina basin Now as you can see from that wave rose that is on the right side all of your waves Of course are coming out of the the east southeast to southeast Which is too big expected because those are the only waves that can penetrate through and continue on to the marina So we looked at The entire recording and this is over time of those six weeks We looked at the ADCP compared it against the wave gauge and also what we were getting offshore at a NOAA again virtual wave buoy We identified five storms which are highlighted here And we then did a calibration study to look at what was offshore and what happened in the nearshore and what that ultimately did for us Which I guess I'll get back to later But let's talk about winds real quick winds are coming out of multiple directions You're seeing a lot of Westerly winds and southerly winds, but if you look at just storm winds then those are relegated to the north north East and the south Sure, I'll get to that calibration at some point The existing conditions for the river discharge now This is a lot of numbers that I don't expect you to take it all in but these are river discharges all the way to 2009 now again the dredging did happen in 2014 We were not able to get those onto a table directly from the Army Corps of Engineers But we did contact them and get some data and they are just in line with the rest of the discharges Suggesting that the the flow did not increase due to this event at all There's not more water coming down the river. It just happens to be deeper So we'll start to look at ice because that is your number one problem now the top table shows the Within the past 30 years the top five icing events and you will notice number one was the winter season of 2013 to 2014 which we all remember as being the polar vortex That created According to calculations and now this was not measured about 20 inches of ice within the marina basin, which is very thick That ice sheet has its own thermal expansion. It has its own properties It had it had adhered to the dockage and caused a number of problems that year 2014 to 2015 which I don't have damage estimates for but that was also in the top five Again out of the past 30 years So we would expect a higher than normal amount of damage related to ice now We did have damage expenses that were Given to us by the the marina and how much they spent on Refurbishing their their dockage after each of these ice seasons for the past 10 years from 2004 to 2014 Now if you look at that table very quickly You can see a correlation between the amount of ice that I formed and the amount of damage that they then received And there is a direct correlation with the largest Years there the 2013 and also the 2008 Being 18 to 20 inches of ice So it's easy to understand that the thickness of ice is a big culprit in the damage itself So I'll go through this very quickly because I realize these images are are a little unclear This is the 2013 to 14 season and from here we can look at Waves we can look at winds we can look at ice thicknesses Everything's on this graphic, but if I want to clean that up I'm looking at four events where you received a lot of damage and now we're looking for Correlations between winds directions or waves and damage that you received And you'll see that the the wind on some days was very low and the waves were also very low And at the same time the direction is not constant or steady So there's not a direct correlation there same thing with the year after where we had also a good amount of damage in 2014 to 15 We again see that the the wind speeds and directions do not have a direct correlation to Certain events and if we sum that all up we're looking at Wind speeds that are not only from the south southwest or northeast But also from the north or the east and a number of different directions and speeds So that doesn't tell us that it's one event that causes this problem And it's not a certain wind direction or wave. It's an actual Ice issue and we'll get into that So going into the numerical modeling what we've done is we created a large-scale model And that's looking offshore to those virtual wave buoys and taking that information and running it through a swan model into the near Shore which then we have the near shore wave model on the right side of the screen We then take that boundary condition all those waves that we've moved to the near shore and run that again into Our basin so we have a better understanding of what's happening locally and that's important You you want to start offshore and let the models figure out what's going on because there's a lot of complexities in in water movement So getting back to that calibration study that we did the uncalibrated storm For a 50 year event. Oh, I'm sorry a the October 28th storm Is on the left side and we can see the Time progression of that storm in that table or I'm sorry in that graphic on the right side And that's looking at wave height and also wave period and period is the time between Consecutive press it's the amount of time it takes for a wave to pass now when we calibrated it We came up with a different model result and you can see that the wave heights within the basin are a lot better Defined and then we understand well how much agitation is leaking itself into the marina basin So it's important to do this calibrated study and we learned a lot more about your basin Not only for for this purpose, but for future renovations or adjustments that you might want as well So We started to look at the river discharge now the river when it normally is discharging actually bypasses your marina entrance There's nothing forcing that currents up into the marina basin now when the Discharges are coupled with a wind that track Diverts and heads north So when we coupled the the Currents with the southeast wind we actually see that a gyre forms where there's currents running inside the basin and along the walls Of the inside of your basin now the last time we were here We took some pictures of your basin and such an event had occurred where we had some southeast way Southeast winds coupled with of course your river discharges and that picture on the right side is actually the back side of Point of anything but it is actually the north side of your marina basin and you'll notice that it's actually ice free And that's because this warmer water that's coming out of the river got diverted into the basin warmed up The ice and broke it along the edges of your marina basin That particular event was coupled with a southeast wind which caused waves which Good amount of agitation directly into that southeast Basin entrance broke up a lot of your ice in the entrance as well So the the ice fishermen were having a very precarious time walking around out there So we sat down talked about some preliminary concepts and how we would combat this combination of agitation and currents which Turned out to be your main issue. So we we discussed Constructing a bin wall under pier e which is essentially slicing your marina in half and causing the The gyre that was forming from the currents to cease because it would be stuck into a much smaller basin But that does nothing for your agitation issues at your marina entrance We also talked about placing a gate across the marina entrance essentially closing your marina completely now the best Winterization of marinas is when there's no agitation. There's no current everything just Solidifies in that ice and is not allowed to move that Prevents any any damage from occurring because your thermal expansion really isn't enough to to crush your docks the way that the movement of the ice actually does so There is that idea. There's the idea of putting a spur just inside the entrance to direct the current into another direction We also talked about opening the northeast corner of the basin to allow Any currents that entered into the basin to re-exit out of that that new entrance We've talked about extending the existing bin wall That's along the the channel the river channel further out so that those currents actually couldn't turn northward and into the basin You can deploy an ice boom Throughout your marina so that it adheres on to the ice boom and then the ice sheet is not able to move around We also talked about just doing something very simple which was moving all of the dockage decoupling all of it and putting it into the corner and Anchoring it there for the winter, but of course that would be labor-intensive and with redeploying in the sun in the spring so we did Not really look at that too much One issue that you you might want to address either way that you go out this is that right now? You have cross chains for your mooring bracing that means that there's a chain on either side of your dockage That's held in between it when the ice sheet connects around it and that ice sheet starts to move You're pulling on one anchor or the other now if you actually attach your your anchor chains on either side When that ice sheet starts to move it doesn't actually twist the dockage So that might be a change that you want to do regardless of which way you go forward so There's potentially relocating the entrance to the northeast corner I talked about all those waves coming in from the southeast now your entrance to your basin is also on the southeast So you're getting a lot of agitation inside your basin by relocating that entrance the agitation throughout your basin actually goes down You don't have an agitation problem in terms of Boating activities it is it is low enough But because of the warm waters that are coming out of your river and causing that entrance to be open all the time Relocating that entrance will actually allow that water to cool and your whole basin to ice over and again That's it's the safest condition We also looked at deisers and placing Air Raiders inside your basin underneath your dockage the idea of those are their bubblers or or their Fans of a sort to move the water around that pulls the warmer watered into the surface and melts the ice and creates an ice-free environment with varied success depending on where you are and there was also two mentions of Extending breakwaters around the entrance and in a u-shaped and also a j-shaped That was my best description for them that the public had expressed interest in so we also looked at those Some problems that we we of course saw with these are putting a gate across the entrance is a Permitting issue you're closing off a basin completely There's no flow through and I know the Army Corps of Engineers would have an issue with that So permitting was going to be a nightmare with that that one extending a bin wall into a navigation channel is a big no-no For permitting you would have to redefine the navigation channel and that's extensive permitting I don't recommend that you ever go down that that road deploying an ice boom I understand that this has been tried and was not successful So we also Abandoned that idea and didn't go past that There is also no guarantee that moving all the dockage to one side and securing it was not going to Still result in some damage to the dockage. So that that is probably not your best bet to move forward Let's see. Oh replacing all your current dockage with new dockage like I mentioned It's a wooden system and it has wooden skirts on the side ice adheres to wood There are other types of materials that I sit here less to and those are considered better in an Ice environment, however, you have a lot of dockage and replacing that dockage is going to be Incredibly expensive. I think when we started to do our numbers. We were coming up with 13 million Six to seven million so there there are definitely some better options out there for you It's again, it's recommended to to change your anchor no matter what So I'll go quickly through these looking at the bin wall We're just looking at currents and the movements through the the marina basin again We want to make this as calm as possible So putting that bin wall in there did help To to a point, but you did still see some currents running along that that northern wall We put a gate across the front which would close off the entrance completely what you're seeing are just some Ghost currents from surface, but once this iced in The surface was not able to be manipulated by wind. So those currents would disappear, but again gates are a permitting issue We have the the spur on the inside which actually accelerated Currents along that back wall so that did not work quite as well as as we had hoped Entry opening the northeast entrance to allow currents to run through and then back out actually Was counterproductive as it created even stronger gyre So that was not a good issue to go through either So then we came to opening the northeast entrance as I mentioned because the waves can't get into an entrance That is not it's in its direct line of sight Our currents were way down and in fact it was very very calm So we started looking at agitation and when we compare agitation from existing to The the recommended new entrance We see that the agitation within the basin is also lower and this suggests that in a winter environment That whole basin would be allowed to ice in it is not a hundred percent guarantee though. So Because the warm water couldn't come from anywhere, but it is a much better solution than what you currently have It is also costly solution, which I'll get into So this is the u-shaped to breakwater extension now again This is going into the navigation channel, which I'm sure whoever came up with the design idea wasn't really thinking of now because of the The focusing of wave energy you can see it in the bright red in that image would be right at your marina entrance That is not the best place to have An entrance because any boats going in and out would be stuck in this elevated wave environment Now the other option that the public came up with with this J-shaped breakwater, which is actually a very good idea if not for Maneuverability it's hard for for boats to actually zigzag and get inside of marina, especially if they are sailboats which Have a much lower maneuverability than power boats the other problem, of course with this is it's still in the navigation channel But it does create a nice calm environment So the other option we of course looked at was the didisers and aerators and this is essentially what they look like casco marine is a supplier here in Wisconsin and We've worked with them in the past and they have pretty good products that are under warranties different warranties for different machines But we gave them a call to see what it would cost to aerate your entire basin still removing two ends of Peers that you currently do you would still want to move those Into the inner basin and they told us that you would only need 28 units We thought that might be a little low, so we did a cost estimates based on 50 units But essentially what they are recommending is a pole mounted system Which is all the way in the bottom right hand corner of the graphic there and those would just directly attached to your current dockage and Circulate the water in those areas and keep any areas above it within that degree ice-free Now based on Wisconsin winters, and they know Wisconsin they they're here. They believe that that we can Turn on these systems occasionally They don't have to run all the time and that they would be able to keep the ice to a thin enough amount That even if you weren't ice-free the ice is not damaging because it's so thin that that the movement of that ice sheet Could actually break against the docks I'm not sure if I fully got across that your your biggest issue is that this ice sheet is Forming around your docks and holding them and that whole ice sheet is subject to wind Forces and also current forces and as it tries to move it tries to drag your docks with it Now your docks of course are fixed to the ground with mooring chains and that resistance and the movement of that ice sheet Is what's causing the twisting and breaking of your docks? So that's what we're trying to avoid here now aerating your entire marina basin, of course would be an electric cost but your capital cost is significantly lower than Implementing any of these structural solutions that we already talked about which includes the breakwaters and gates and such So going into a little bit of costing and this is going to be high-level Looking at a 16 foot depth, which is what you have in your basin in and around your basin every foot Every linear foot of breakwater is going to cost roughly four thousand dollars now You're looking at over 250 feet with any of these options Now one of the options of relocating that entrance to the northeast corner You're actually reusing that rock so you don't have to purchase new rock But your costs only go down of by about thirty to thirty five percent So you're still looking at twenty seven hundred dollars per linear foot and again, that's going to be about a hundred hundred twenty feet of Breakwater now comparing that to your deisers Which of course are the capital cost of just the system? I Costed it out based on fifty units and your cost is about forty six thousand seven hundred fifty dollars Now those are based on today's prices Prices change in June just to let you know But that's that's roughly where that cost would be that does not include the cost of electricity Or time or labor to install them to uninstall them to store them to maintenance them That is just the direct cost that you would pay to purchase the systems from casco now Of course when we compare that to an equivalent breakwater You're only going to get eleven to eighteen feet of breakwater for the same cost So that's really a no-brainer as to if you're looking for Your first Avenue you want to look at something that is going to give you an open basin For the least amount of money the aerators are definitely a good way to go so It is our recommendation that you look into the deisers and casco has Promised me a map of the location of these Adirators, but I do not have they yet so I'm I'm not going to give that to you But they they are under warranty and they will work with you to set them up and make sure that that your system is working properly So the only considerations that you have for these systems Are of course installation and removal. It's more labor. It's going to be more time-intensive There is the of course the electricity during the winter you decide how long you want to turn them on casco Will give you recommendations on on how long they will need to be run based on the temperatures and Forecasting temperatures you want to store them and maintenance them every year So they are small units as a you saw in the pictures. They're not very large So that would be too much of a problem Anyone have a few on hand as replacements because the worst thing to happens in the middle of the winter one breaks a Really rough night and you're gonna have ice Forming now ice is not going to get to seven inches which tends to be your threshold for for damage in the marina Overnight that's not going to happen But if one breaks down you're gonna want to replace it in the next week or so just to make sure your ice is Kept pretty thin Now casco again only recommended 28 units I costed 50 because it is such a large basin But for only the 28 units you are looking at a capital cost of only $26,000 So it is a definite good first path forward and and I would recommend that as The way that you go to to see if that is going to help you with your ice concerns now We've had an incredibly mild winter this year Which is actually very nice after the past two years So I don't know what your your damage has been this year But I can imagine a little bit of torquing and movement, especially due to the storms coming in has caused you a Little bit of damage and maybe even 10% of what it would cost to get these aerators Water So it's a fairly inexpensive way to start off to see how this all works If you need to add a few more down the road you can Now you will still get agitation events in the winter because you were The river actually allows that that navigation channel to remain open through most of the winter So you're still going to get waves coming in breaking up the ice that is outside of these aerators So you will get chunks of ice floating into The hole that is created by these deisers. However, that ice is so small that even its movement is not enough to damage Significantly any docks that you that you have Does anyone have any questions? Yes What I'm sorry. What is the the life expectancy or the warranty for each one of these? Each system is a little bit different. So that would be Casco would would guarantee their system for a certain amount of time within a certain amount of maintenance Is it five years ten years? What what is it? Okay We wouldn't expect it to be less than five years Any other questions? Yep, thank you a quick question you talked about changing the way we tie them down if you will Is there any benefit to doing that in addition to these aeration systems? Or is that in your mind cost prohibitive? I think of the the recommendation of changing the mooring system to a knot crossed Is it's still valuable now if you can keep the the the basin open completely throughout the winter Then you don't have that ice sheet moving those docks and therefore that cross system doesn't matter and Where your your docks are stable in their current position if you choose not to to change the mooring system As long as the the basin remains open you should be fine But if there's a little bit of ice and that ice sheet starts to move You will get the twisting in those docks and that's why I think it's it's a recommended that you switch it But it is labor and and there are costs associated with doing that So how many inches of ice does it take to move those moorings? I know it says seven inches for the Amount of damage right that we've seen that was about the threshold. Yeah, you know about just to get things moving I mean is it three inches four inches? Well, it would be a Force calculation, but yeah, it would be about three inches before It's kind of adhered and now you have your your wind running across that ice and forcing it in a direction And it's gonna want to carry those docks with it now It's not gonna cause damage to those docks because the the ice is thin enough that it'll start to crush against the dock But it's enough to get things moving around they want to move when the wind blows You know, there's they're above the water surface and this is a great lesson on wind and agitation I was so looking forward this night But the then I guess my last question would be these aeration systems that you have How much ice will form with those systems there so if three inches gets things moving Will three inches of ice form with these agitation systems in place There there is the option of leaving them running for a good amount of time And of course, it's a function of the temperature because if we get another Two weeks of negative 20 degrees like we did in 2013 you will get ice on the top there It's just because the ice is where the cold water is actually now permeating toward the bottom That I don't know exactly how much ice you're gonna end up with but in which case Casco would recommend that you run them full time in a mild winter like this You might turn them on once a night per an hour or two. Do you know what they draw from an electricity standpoint? Did a calculation this same system we put in in Traverse City, Michigan. It's a little colder climate 150 slips are there abouts there were 48 units and on a particularly cold winter I think they used about $13,000 worth electricity, but they ran them pretty often and that was 48 units, so I suspect it's probably it's 350,000 in dock repair. Yes And was that a successful They didn't they just they didn't sustain damage that year when it was that cold They didn't quantify how much but they they kept it open enough that there really wasn't any damage But there are lakes or state parks in Milwaukee has the same thing so it keeps things open You know in terms of the ice question and how much is going to form this actually keeps it open So no ice forms even overnight if you turn them off in the next day you came in There's not going to be much ice there you turn them on that ice to be gone within an hour Yes, Jim thanks chairman You you talked about the gate how much would the gate cost and what are the permitting issues? What you have here I'm one of them To give you an idea of your marina entrance it's a hundred and seventy five feet So you'd need at least a hundred fifty feet of gate across that and that's gonna add up very quickly And you would have to deploy it every winter and put it somewhere in the spring There's a lot of issues there Just just a quick quick how long is that permitting a couple times you've referred to this permitting we've all worked with the DNR and various shapes and capacities how long is that permitting process? To actually get a permit Okay, so it would be never then For that specific yeah concept yes Need any other questions seeing none Thank you for the information And again, this is basically for discussion and and review if anybody wanted to make a motion on this Recon on any of these recommendations they can Yes, Jen What we would ask for is a recommendation on whatever we you believe is the preferred Alternative which you know the staff is recommending as well as the consultants the de icing plan and what we would like to do is Be able to have the council a bless something so we can finalize the report and then staff will work with the purchasing department to go out and develop a more comprehensive plan on How this would be employed and what the cost would be in bidding and all of that kind of stuff and bring it back to you For final right final approval at a later meeting But just as a follow-up Chris has said that there is minimal damage this year Given that the weather conditions there's they're gonna have to hire a welder to come in and do some Minor work, but so I believe we've skirted a year that we don't have a ton of Costs so we've got some time to get this implemented and the goal would be to get this plan in place for next year's Winter season, so we've got enough time between now and then to develop a final layout plan and work with the vendor to get To something that's gonna work for us Thank you Yes, Don I would move that we accept their recommendation and ask staff to put together a budget and Scope of work for this project and bring it back to the council second. We have a first and a second All in favor Discussion discussion. Sorry No discussion have a first and a second all in favor. I Against Motion is approved. Thank you Go into 2.2 presentation By the vibray architects on the city hall Use study and possible recommendations to the common council Yes, John Thank You chairman. I'd just like to kick this off For those of you that don't know I am the building use chairman and about This past summer we convened the committee and started looking at all sorts of different Alternatives and options and what preceded this was a study by Zs consultants who looked at this facility and We knew that there were Significant deficiencies in maintenance that needed to be done and we needed to figure out what the entire scope of that work Was going to be and once we received this report Then the building use committee was formed and it was determined that Are we going to stay in this building? Are we going to are we going to? Just vacate it and leave it. Are we going to build it a new city hall? Are we going to look at existing buildings within the city to relocate and In what kind of space needs do we have? So it became kind of overwhelming a little bit for the committee with all these different moving parts and so what we decided to do was Contract with Bray and do a building use study and figure out what is the actual needs of square footage of City hall what is required to run in the most efficient way possible and can this building in fact be Reconfigured in such a manner as to accommodate the efficiencies that we're looking for And so they were going to look at the space needs and and look at this existing building as well as other buildings within the city and other Lots or land that the city does own to purchase it or to to construct the new City Halls, so It's been quite a lengthy process but Bray architects did a fantastic job and they've got a great presentation, so I'd like to introduce Steve and Mike and they'll go ahead and provide the Presentation and they'll be questions afterwards and we'll go from there. Thank you. Thank you John Thank you John and again, I'm Steve Cuenan. I'm a principal with Bray local firm here in town Hopefully most of you know of us. We also have offices in Milwaukee, but this was an easy trip five minutes And we're here. It's great to be here also with me is Mike hacker Mike's an associate with our firm and We were the the primary architects involved in this although a lot a lot others help and as John had mentioned It's been a it's been a lengthy process, but I think a very good one. We started out I'll probably I think six five six months ago and We sat down and kind of took a fresh look at this and looked at First of all interviewing all of the staff to make sure that we had their needs Their needs and their requirements appropriate and then we turned that into a programming sheet Which tells us kind of how how big we really need this space to be and and I'm not going to go through that Here but but just to let you know that the a new building would be about 25,000 square feet and that's to accommodate those Departments that you have in this building here and this building right now including the basement and the mezzanine and all the spaces About 39,000 square feet. So we've got some extra square footage in this building for what those needs are and so that but that program then Created the basis for our moving forward and then looking at different sites And then putting some costs to those and I'm going to turn it over to Mike And he's going to just run through kind of the process that we used in looking at sites and and eliminating some sites and continue to look at some sites and then we'll look at at What this building might be if it were to be renovated so Mike So we thought we would do is start up by showing you what's on the screen here Which is the draft study documents and I believe that's been sent out and is available to go through in detail And we thought we'd just take a minute and give you an overview of how that structure give you a little bit of the methodology behind our process for going through this effort and then I'll take a minute and just talk about the how we achieved the space total square footage as Steve just noted and then Steve will take it over from there and talk a little bit more about the Different sites that we that we took a look at so the study document is really broken into two main components Okay, so you'll see once you get into that and under tab one is the space program Which is what I'm going to talk about in a second tab to really looks at the site analysis and again We studied a series of different sites in and around the city as well as this existing building And we have a little bit more a couple exhibits to take a look at relative to that From there then number three will is kind of a TBD, but that's a recommendation So we'll complete that piece coming out of this conversation tonight as a recommendation is made to To the Common Council and then to complete the documents just an appendix with a bit more information in it. Okay So tab one the program need we always start out by first and foremost defining who we are today Okay, and so we spend some time really studying the existing City Hall building the different departments and the different organizations that make up the building Okay, so this is a site plan so you can see the City Hall building to the south as well as the garage immediately north of that We then do Organization diagrams for for each of the floors. Okay, and so this color code. It's kind of small but on the bottom really Outlines all the different departments that make up the City Hall Administration and ultimately the departments that went into the space program that we'll talk about in a second here Okay, so we have this organization here for the basement level the first floor second floor Third floor, which is the floor we are on and then the fourth floor, which is the mechanical mezzanine Just a small penthouse at the top of the building there. Okay As we went through this it's clear that this building is Really of a vintage very common for City Halls at this time to be designed in this manner Really where departments were spread out and sprinkled throughout the building. Okay, and limited public space The vast majority of the space in this building is Dedicated to private office space It also is difficult from a wayfinding standpoint and we're going to talk a little bit more about that just from a Citizens as they come into the building as a patron kind of the ease of the services were providing them So how how simply are they getting answers to their questions and achieving tasks while they're in the building? Okay, and right now it's pretty difficult. You have to rely on signs You have to traverse multiple floors as well as Into the basement at times. Okay, so We can come back to that and speak to that in more detail So as Steve noted this space program It's very small here and I can certainly zoom in if there are specific questions But it's organized by those color-coded departments. Okay, so what you'll see is Attorney's office clerk's office planning and development And so on and what you're seeing in the far left column is the existing square footage by room Okay, so we start by organizing by department and then within that department We further break that down by the different spaces that make up that department the offices the storage rooms Any open work station environments that may accompany that? Okay, and then have listed as I noted the existing square footage and then through interviews with with department heads through a survey exercise have Forecasted a projected need for each of those departments again broken down by those specific rooms. Okay, and so in some cases you'll see The rooms are right-sized Okay, so we've taken an office and and adjusted the size of that relative to what we would project the need moving forward for that to Be in some cases We've looked at opportunities to consolidate things like record storage and maybe in doing some electronic scanning to downsize some some of our current storage need And then in some cases we actually identified spaces either we don't need moving forward or vice versa spaces that we don't have today That we do think we need moving forward. Okay, and that's Clearly organized by department as you go through through the building. Okay, when you get to the the last sheet It's important to note at the bottom for us. We look at two different types of square footage Okay, the first is a net square footage. The second is a gross square footage Okay, and so we talk about the difference between those the net square footage is really going to be our program square footage Okay, that's that that's an inside wall to inside wall dimension of each of the rooms a Net square footage does not take into account like circulation hallways janitors closets It doesn't take into account Mechanical chases right things that you need in a building but are not dependent Department by department. Okay, so really when we're comparing need today versus need tomorrow Outside of a solution. Okay, and not looking at a design yet not looking at renovating a building yet really just comparing those We're looking at the net square footage. Okay, and right now We believe that the net square footage of the existing building for this analysis is about 13,500 square feet Okay, and the projected need moving forward is about 18,200 square feet Okay, so about a 4,700 square foot difference growth in net square footage Okay, about half of that falls into a shared category actually the last category in the space program And and that directly relates to a shift in model a shift in approach. That's more a public-centered design Okay, so it's more shared space It's taking taking a lot of the hidden spaces the conference rooms that are tucked around this building and bringing them to the front Increasing them in size and in allowing the public to access them more frequently Okay, and we'll talk about that a little bit more in a second. So Before I dive into that, are there any specific questions about the space program the process for that or ultimately square footage? Yes Non-architect didn't play one at home We have much less staff now inside this building By a significant amount, but you're saying we need for almost 4,000 more square feet To do the functions of city hall Is that what I'm hearing? That's correct. Yep. Yep As I know about half of that growth so the majority of that growth is really in shared space, so it's Meeting rooms conference spaces this council chambers in particular and I can identify those more here here in a second Yes Marilyn And I did I had the same question in terms of decreasing Staff and also efficiencies in terms of use of space why we grossed up to that extent In your opinion can either city hall be remodeled well, that's redundant But the other building sites that you're proposing could we go with the net area of 13,000 540 instead of going up to 18,000 and still do what we need to do as a city Yeah, that would obviously I don't think so based on unless we decreased Elements of that program and I think part of the difference also comes in in just how we how we Kind of figured things and it comes down to sort of some nitty-gritty like like a typical Workstation would be 8 feet by 10 feet where now it might be 4 feet by 6 feet and some of that Some of that the space that they used to work with is in file cabinets or something and so so it's it's We try to be as apples as apples to apples as possible, but we really but we're really not Apples to apples so I think the the difference that between the 13 and the 18 is not quite as large of a range as as it appears on the paper and Just what I would note is that The mayor's suite of offices is large The the secretarial area is is quite substantial. We have open space over here. We have our our planning and development department in Very inefficient kind of configuration and so those are the those are the Just as I'm looking at it. I'm just wondering if if we couldn't do in that area That was perhaps a little bit more Reasonable Just a thought. I mean I'm not arguing with you and maybe you're gonna get to this So I don't want to badger this issue, but you know shared meeting spaces, you know shared conference rooms Oh that shared space is that design are you talking about shared like for the general public? Are you talking more in line with because we have the library that we have those abilities to do? You know those types of things. I'm just again just trying to wrap my arms around Do we have an estimate per square foot? I'm sure there's numbers in here somewhere Because you kind of made the comment that you know 4,000 square feet isn't all that much more But multiplied by a cost per square foot, you know, probably gonna be real dollars. Yeah, yeah noted Yeah, and when we made that reference, it's really more as we would compare that to other clients and other studies of this type That growth is I would say relatively small compared to the the right sizing that we deal with with a lot of similar clients That was what that was in reference to so this might help answer that a little bit So what we put together here was a graphic It's really an adjacency diagram to help try to communicate the the public service model of a city hall That differs a bit from how the current city hall is set up today And so this is not really meant to be architecture It's not meant to look like a floor plan But it is meant to give you a perspective of scale as well as kind of adjacencies and some traffic flow So what you're seeing here on the top in a little bit darker shade of yellow is all of the Staff space okay all of the department space we referenced just a second ago the size of the individual Department box or rectangle is proportionate to its square footage Okay, so you can compare one department to the other in a quick glance. Okay We also spent some time as we worked with the staff talking about who the departments work with most Okay, one of the key goals here would also to be to find a layout of the building that really maximize the efficiency of the staff time While they're in the building. Okay, so we studied what departments are they working with frequently? Are there ways that we can either Combine or locate those adjacent to one another so that the staff movement is minimized as much as possible And so some of the arrows you're seeing between the departments are representing some of of that movement You can see here planning and development a number of the departments go to planning development Okay, so finding the right location for them is going to be key to to this study As well as the city attorney obviously is a key component within the interdepartmental working Okay So I think the key component in this diagram really is these spaces as it relates to the public space Okay, and that's the a little bit lighter color to the bottom of the image or combination of colors there and so what you're seeing there is a Simplified movement as much as possible for any of our patrons or public that come into the building So the goal here really is that through one or possibly multiple entrance points We simplify the lobby space as much as possible and attempt to find a limited number of Transaction points within the building that they need to ultimately find okay So the ideal scenario as you see here would be one informational desk Okay This would be a desk that very much is staffed by a Cross-trained group of individuals that is really there to to answer 90% of the questions that that arise at the front desk Oftentimes today somebody comes into complete one task They may have to go to two to three different departments to complete that one task Ideally all of those can be completed at this one counter Okay the other piece to that is that instead of bringing the public back into the staff environment into the private environment we're bringing the Excuse me the public back into the staff environment bringing the staff up to the front to the public Okay, and so what you're seeing just on the left in the right of the informational desk Would be a couple conference rooms potentially Okay, and those as identified in the space program would be located in a way that the public could get access to them And our staff as well from from their side of the building Then outside of and around the lobby would be a series of other public accessible spaces It would be this council chambers as well as some of the other meeting rooms associated with with the program Okay, and so ideally this is done in a way to that the private side or the staff side of the building Could be closed off on nights and weekends and we could in fact allow Public access in and the ability to even rent out spaces in the evenings around on the weekends Okay, so it starts to shift the thinking of City Hall from from just what happens in meetings like this to more of a public accessible space I will say to answer your question. We were not charged with overlaying this to some of the other City-owned buildings and you know Kind of associated spaces so we did not study the need identified here compared to the similar space types at the library or in other buildings So that was not a part of this this analysis. Thank you So with that said the next step of the process was to start to look at a series of different sites Yeah, so we and hopefully I can read these we we looked at we we worked with the with our steering committee to Come up with sites that the city already owns and then a couple of even additional ones that we just There was some interest in looking at those and so we came up with I think was nine sites Yeah, so so the the diagram here is showing those sites within the downtown area We we wanted the sites to be as close as close to the downtown as possible. And so we really we really focused on those sites The And we labeled each one The first one is the 10th in Wisconsin, which is which is the site Along the river right next to the the garden toy building and a good-sized site So we I'll tell you what I'm gonna do is kind of go through all these and then we'll go through them in a little Bit more detail So this is this just shows all the nine sites the number the first one was a tent in Wisconsin the second one was the need library Building and we looked at at two areas on that the third one was the existing City Hall the fourth was the Yeah parking lot west of Stefanos the next was the immediately north of that the seventh Next one was seventh in New York Shiboyan press and and then and then finally the Nenshaw building so so the the ones that are up here in the in the red Are our sites that kind of made the cut the other the other ones in the pink did not make the cut And we'll kind of talk about some of the reasons that they didn't so So as we get into the this this is the 10th in Wisconsin site It's showing we wanted to look just to test the sites to see if a building in fact could fit on there a building of the size that We programmed and Given that this is the largest site We we looked at this as a one-story building it could be two it could be three But we wanted to see what kind of the worst-case scenario if there were if this were one site Would it still fit you can see that it's it really fits pretty nicely on the site a corner site We also wanted to see if if in the future You know there was there was some thought that maybe a fire station Would occur in this area would it fit a fire station? So that's why you're seeing a fire station though That wasn't really part of the study But we did that as an exercise to see if in fact it could support a fire station and it does and there's no surprise here This this is a really good site. The other thing about this site is that it's got it's on a nice prominent axes To the downtown it sort of lines up nicely on this axis and if you continue to go east you would end up at the John Michael Gola Art Center So it's it's a nice from a from a tying it into the downtown. We thought that was a nice element the next site Is the this is the existing library site where we looked at the northwest corner This this we thought was was kind of a nice site because it's it creates kind of the civic presence We've already got the fountain here, and we thought we would face the building onto the fountain and really Create a civic plaza in a way there and It would allow allow parking. We were taking some of the parking away But but it would have accessible parking that is now in existence for the for the library and such So then we we looked at at the existing City Hall and We looked at the at the existing parking building or not parking structure, but it was parking for the police department We said let's get rid of that that building is really there wasn't a whole lot of use for that we could turn that into into additional parking space or potentially plaza space turn the the Main entrance of the building around and we'll get into that and when we get into the design of the building But but we really looked at at increasing the once again the civic presence of this building This is the building or the site in just to the west of Ilra trouble. We thought this the city owns this We thought this had some some positives to it. It's on kind of a main. It's got a main Visual as you come into town It's right across from the school district there. There's there seems to be adequate parking there But just the the access to this really became a negative, you know, how do you get to it? You need sort of need to weave through the streets and make some some funny turns and so But we kept it on the table This was the and this this was a site adjacent to the the previous site on With Pennsylvania Avenue and Thought we kept the same issues as the other one better access probably better street presence in a way But I think the committee felt that this might be a better This site might better be used for some sort of retailer office space. So but again, we kept it on the table So those are the those are the sites that made the cut Some of the other ones that we looked at for instance, the press building was was discounted just because that would probably need as much if not more Renovation than as this building does and we weren't it's privately owned and so there are some issues with that We looked at the at the Nemshoff building downtown Which is privately owned the city would need to Least that space or cut a deal with them and we just felt the floor plate was not working well for what for what you have in mind in terms of in terms of this new approach to delivering your services and Then we also looked at the site That is adjacent to the the old Prangy site or coal a Boston store site And and it was just felt that while it was a prominent site it there were better uses for that in terms of some retail or something that would Service the the new apartments there in that green space. So so that was kind of taken off the table at that point. I got them Oh, yeah, southeast of the mead this one was that the kind of the Fairly tight site and we need to get so close to that building and with the building codes and and You know the firewalls we'd have to create and just the lack of space there It would it would have to be a three-story building maybe even for and it was just felt that that was not the best the best Area to put a building because of what it would do to the library in the presence of the library there So any other any questions on that? Kind of breeze through that. We're asked to give the reader's digest approach. So Any questions on those sites or anything? No Okay Okay, so why don't we just jump into this building then Every every site we looked at We looked at a at about a 25,000 square foot building. So the footprint you were looking at were either a one-story I think in some of the smaller sites. We went to a three-story or a two-story So we we we tested out a number of different Building masses on those sites, although they're all within that 25,000 square foot range And each of those when we put a cost of them was somewhere between 6.8 and 7.6 million dollars the difference being Primarily in the site and the development of the site Some of them would need more parking some not as much parking and so the building costs themselves We were really standard on the 25,000 square feet We know is we know what a building of that size is going to cost so there's not much difference there at all It's really really comes down to the site So so When you're coming up with those costs six to seven million dollar range What do you take in into consideration as far as building materials finishes inside the building? Would you compare that to a Rolls-Royce? Cadillac or a Chevrolet, you know cut if you can put it in those kind of terms sure we're getting for the money Yeah, that's a great great question. What we did is we we never designed Mercedes-Benz or you know, we just never get that kind of a budget We'd love to but I would say that this is probably more of a Chevy and I say that the prices that we came up with are based off of Recent projects that we've done in in similar similar communities. We did one down at Oak Creek. It just opened We just finished a project in St. Francis, which just opened about a year ago We Yeah, I'm unpleasant. We did probably about five years ago And so so we've taken that historical data and these are hard bid numbers And we we projected that on to onto what this might be and and all of those buildings are Functional first and foremost, but they're also they have materials that are I would say nice enough to you know That people in the community can be proud of their brick their solid good construction in some cases There might be a little stone But they're they're not they're a good solid Nicely aesthetic building that any community would be proud of and and that would last a long long time Yes, Jim, I could if I could follow up now that I sat in in your first presentation And after I thought You mentioned those three communities now. I imagine those communities had existing buildings Why did they all decide to go with new construction rather than either expanding? Maybe you can give them some reasons why they decided to go new versus Remodeling their existing buildings because I thought it was kind of ironic because you were suggesting You know basically getting this building and starting over but your three clients that you brought as examples All decided to go new. Yeah Well, there are a lot of different reasons Oak Creek for instance they They were part of a development group that That it was was going to create an entire new downtown If you're familiar with it Oak Creek a bot Oak Creek with a development group of a private and public partnership bought It was over a hundred acres of the old Delphi Battery plant and they said we want to create a downtown. They didn't have a downtown and the building they were in Well, it was functioning. Okay It it was in a bad location and it was they were a growing of growing community And they knew they were going to get larger and so they decided to participate in this This new venture to create a new downtown where they were going to be the kind of the jewel in that downtown In the anchor in that downtown. So so it was a completely different way of thinking St. Francis in their case they actually had a They had a building that was a had a police station and a fire station in it. They were in a landlocked Environment where they couldn't there was nowhere to expand Otherwise we probably and we did look at at at renovating the building and it would have been fine for the city hall But but the fire station and the police station were just too small And so they they chose to move off-site and build a new new facility and then Finally Mount Pleasant Well pleasant was a little bit different they They were growing another growing community down in Racine County. They Needed more space and they also happened to be on a very prominent corner of The street they were on it was a very desirable to a developer and so where they were able to sell that property to a developer for top dollar and And walk away from the building. It was demolished and then a developer took it over and built retail and For what else they did so so it was kind of a win-win situation I wouldn't even mention that they also got a ten million dollar donation Which sort of helped help them Make that decision The forest Smart But we are looking there In addition full renovation there the building did not have the historic value that this one does but it had the location Similarly There we did a full renovation of their city hall Did not have the architectural But again that was So every client's a little bit different and it's really about finding the right solution Thanks, Mike, and I should mention one other it's right next door the shabuigan falls we just You know we just renovated and added on to their existing city hall They also have a police station connected to it in the fire station and so we went through the same process with them and they decided to go ahead and Renovate and add okay Any other questions? So we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna show you kind of our proposal or idea for turning this building into a We'll say it's 21st century state-of-the-art city hall and The all the projects that we've designed have this this Idea of this we call it a one-stop shop and the in the ultimate idea is that Person comes into the building. They may have never been here before they go There's one place they can go to and they're directed then either to a to the department or generally They'll call up and the department will come to them the representative that they need to see and so That was a challenge. It's a true. It's a challenge in any multi-story building But what we thought is when we took a look at this building we We we thought what what was this lacking? To accomplish that in this regard and one of the things that it is lacking is this this connection between all the different Departments they're all kind of spread out throughout the building and there's no You can you come in and there's a there's a receptionist there But she's only there sometimes and you really don't if you don't if the receptionist isn't there You're sort of lost and you usually end up at the clerk's office and so So and it's a little intimidating to walk up the stairs if you've never been here before so we thought if we could if we Somehow open this open this whole building up take down the walls and and sort of create a more Transparent feel to this that we could you could start to visually see what was happening when you walked into the building That would be a good thing and so The other thing we looked at are all this the different safety and ADA issues You know you have the ADA ramp in the in the front of the building And it's it's it's usable people can do it But it's pretty intimidating if you're in a wheelchair and you're parking across the street You have to come in and find out where that thing starts and where to go up And it's it's really not a very pleasant experience as I'm sure you all know We also wanted to make sure that the building because it is an icon and it's and it's it's it's been here for a hundred years That we didn't change the look of the building Significantly that we really state that you know kept it in in its in its current form so We thought Let's let's turn the building around let's create a new entry way off of the the north side of the building Which would allow us to get some parking back there? It would allow us to To solve most of the ADA issues getting up to the building And it would allow and it would be an opportunity to To demolish some of the the worst part of the exterior of the building Which is that north side which is crumbling and and and take that down Create a glass wall that's kind of contemporary, but we make it so it fit You know it fit the the building With some divided lights and that kind of thing But that would allow us to get some light to spill into the into the building and just open the whole thing up and start to start to create a better visibility within the building a better environment for the people who Work here as well as better environment for the people who visit here and It was not without some challenges. We thought You know we started to look at can we save some of these walls or can we and and really it came down to probably the most efficient way to Reconfigure this building is to just kind of strip it down to to the structure There's not a whole lot in here. I hope I'm not offending anybody that is worth keeping from a planning a space plan Idea there's a lot in terms of the details like the wood windows You know some of the trim work and that kind of thing that the stair is is is is awesome And we would want to keep that we want to work around that Above here. I don't know if many of you know it Maybe you do but there's a beautiful stained glass window above this this ceiling It's and there's a skylight above that we would we would anticipate Revisiting that bringing that back in So anyway, all those things kind of got us to to come up with the plan that we've got here today And again, the key is that that new entrance off of the south that verticality and then the opening it up to the to the different different departments visually So one of the ways we did that working working with the structure and the stair as kind of our and the and the exterior skin as our As our starting point We thought if we were to you know, we could we've done this in other buildings Where we've cut atriums out of the floor and it starts to create some some of that vertical expansion So we as we're looking at here. Maybe we cut out We just do a circle there the circle relates to the outside and the inside and starts to cut away some of those floors Which allows some natural light into the building we know that Because of the extensive renovation we're going to do and just for safety and security we want to get rid of those fire escapes and So we're going to need to build some stair towers So we've we said well, we're going to we're going to do some major demolition on this on the north side Anyway, let's build those safety towers those safety stair towers in there We know we wanted to get a new elevator because the elevator doesn't work very well It doesn't hold a gurney so it's not as safe as a new one. So let's let's take take that stair tower and create a Elevator within that as well. So now we've got this central core of our our main stair our exit stairs We've got it all up to the code anyone in a wheelchair can come in take the elevator to any stair They can get anywhere in the in the building on whatever floor they're in they could even get to the basement as well and it also allows us to To To just kind of separate that the core space where the public generally goes from the from the the office space so Along this this On the first floor what you would do is you could come in either from the north side or the south side you would you would hit a A counter that would be we're showing it off of the clerk's area But it could be staffed by someone who is sort of a general person that would direct you either across the way to the to the purchasing What we found in our in our research was that the purchasing and city clerk had the most Visitors so we put them on the first floor The second floor then would be we move up to the second floor and we would have our Inspection and planning Community planning Services and right now they're separated yet. They do a lot of things together. So we put them together and you'll notice the again the a lot of Meeting rooms are along the perimeter So a person coming to the to the facility wouldn't necessarily have to go into the office space They could go into the office someone from the office goes into the conference room or the meeting space and they can collaborate there And so it's it's a little bit more of a safety feature for those who are working here But again on the so this would be the second floor And then the third floor This would would be the we'd renovate this space open it up again that that wall there was added so this would become Kind of we'd restore it to the way it was take the ceiling out create the bring in the restore the the existing stained glass Reconfigure this so that all the other persons would be on the dais and that's what we see and just every I don't think we've ever designed one the way it is designed here, which is more like a state assembly or Senate so So we would have the we would have space for the new amount of all the persons which is can't the mayor Their their staff and then the audience would be facing them It would be all set up with technology, etc. All the sound systems and things that we have space for the staff off to the side The mayor's office would be on this floor as well the mayor and the city administrator would have a Conference room that could be shared similar to what they do now if they want to close session that sort of thing And then we actually and here you'll see where we've got this extra space in this building We've just it's sort of on the I think as you're looking at it's on your left side That would be extra space that we could either put maybe the the department of the engineering department or the public works department staff or we're showing it as maybe the W Local cable channel comes over there and uses it. It's just sort of space. That's left over that. We didn't have We didn't have anything programmed for now on the converse down on the basement. We've also got that situation There's a lot of square footage in the basement. We're showing that we're right now. We've got the The it department down there But you can see there's a lot of space up there, too That's just right now We're just calling it storage because we don't have any other use for it But this is where you get if you do go this route you get that benefit of some extra Extra square footage that would not be programmed in the any of the new So so I hope I if there any question, I'd be oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, the Rendering this is just an idea of what this might look look like and again It we didn't show the front of the building because you all know what that looks like We would enhance the front, but it would stay pretty much the way it is. This is actually taking taking from Ninth Street looking south and so Which is a pretty heavily traveled area That that is since it's facing north. It's come brings in beautiful north light into the building and again it would act as kind of This this lantern that would draw you into into the into the city hall So and the idea here would be that we would anything that we would add We would pick up on the detailing that you have in the existing building so All right, thank you gentlemen Questions Yeah, I'm sorry, we didn't say that that would be our estimate is a range of about ten and a half to eleven point one I believe It could it could be either way We just thought you know they have a lot of stuff coming in there and they want to be next to that IT room and so we thought We just thought might be easier to put them down there Out of that I'm on a square operation Picking up an extra forty seven hundred square feet. I'm still not convinced that I'm not an architect so help me understand why We would need an extra forty seven hundred Like to look through some of the comparisons of what we're at now Where we're at seems like we have external conference rooms which are great, but then we have extra internal conference rooms, which is Can't use the same conference rooms for both internal and external that means as we do now I guess I'm just trying to keep a conscious steward of the fact that we're not flipping the bill for this I'm sure you guys hear this a lot One point three million dollars Really large number to me I did down the lower estimate of seven point two I guess help me understand that Yeah, and I guess it It we didn't we sort of did these as separate as separate exercises and and it came from our Programming exercise where we sat down with the staff and we said what's working. What's not working? How can we improve it and listed first of all the Numbers of staff you have now and then those spaces that they felt were necessary to do their jobs And we came up with that list I Would and I mentioned that apples to apples Comparison before and maybe we need to go back and do a little bit more Analysis of that to see to see where that discrepancy is Because I think in terms of you know the big drivers are our offices and workspaces and we've actually We've actually probably have a net less hard offices or enclosed offices and more workstations so From from that standpoint, we should have Less sort of people space, but I think I think maybe what's what's driving that are the are the like you mentioned some of the conference spaces the Collaborate and collaboration spaces those kind Everything on the wishlist I get that Yes, I'm gonna echo what Alderman Hammond has said, you know, I've been Finding me or my way around this building for over 30 years When I go into a building if I don't know where I'm going I look at the directory on the wall and quite honestly if Somebody comes in the building and they can't read English I think they should leave and come back when they can read English and find their way to the part great department This is going to be put it on the back of the taxpayers We seem to be doing our the the departments in this building seem to be doing their jobs just fine in the space They have the police department just left and went to their own new building that within the past couple years We just voted to close the city assessor's office, which is opening up more space I really don't understand why we need more space this this concept of a welcome center where Our people leave their offices, which is a tight which is time inefficient and come down and greet the people I think it's a You know like Alderman Hammond said it's a wishlist thing You know, I would like to have the sports core in my house and a wine cellar and my own micro brewery while we're at it But I can't afford those things and I don't think I don't think the taxpayers need to take some new cosmetology cosmopolitan approach to finding different departments when when again the taxpayers and the residents of this city have been For decades finding their way around the building. I think that there are some in in your study I think there are some assumptions built in that we That maybe the taxpayers aren't on board are not going to be on board with the same assumptions that you put into this proposal I think that I as technologies increases. It's arguable at one point We're not going to have a library as technology increases and I know that's going to scare librarians greatly, but the point is as a technology increases the job can be done with less people and less space and I don't think we need to put the bird extra burden on the taxpayers back of Some pie in the sky Nice welcome center approach. I think I think things are functional as they are and I'm more interested in finding out what it takes to Keep the building going as opposed to some feel-good renovations Thank You Jose Mike Thank You very much chairman You propose that there was some extra space on the third floor that could be used for like DPW administration and engineering If that was utilized for that purpose That's a plus for this building, but I'm wondering how much would that square footage? Cost us if we added it to the other scenarios that you gave us for comparison Do you have any rough idea what that could be around? We did we did look at that and we came up with rough numbers. We were about I think 650 to $750,000 and that was based on the program that we had come up with which was And it was the I think I offhand it was about a total of about 4,000 4,000 square feet I think we're all Thank You Hold them in the Sardin. Thank You Chairman I'm I'm just have a question. There's been some chat about combining two of our fire stations into one and building a fire station What would the possibility of having this beautiful new fire station and having City Hall built above it? instead of And we don't and we don't have we don't have employees to be that welcome wagons To City Hall that would mean we'd have to hire someone and all that goes with that. We just don't have that So it seems like all the designs factor in a welcome center, which we don't have to begin with So is that considered in? The dollars when we go to to make an approval. We just don't have the welcome wagons here But could you take if we were to build a new fire station? That were combining two fire stations and putting into one big fire station City Hall to be built above that on the second and perhaps third floor combining some departments and We've been losing employees we're cutting down alderman to 10 we're cutting down. We're not getting bigger Yeah, I guess to answer your question anything's possible. So yes, we could probably do it We didn't we did not Look at that as part of the study but Your concept would would certainly be a Possibility I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be And I think in just a comment on the on the welcome wagon thing I think the intention of the design isn't to add staff It's usually the existing staff is just a different way that their position and and work in the building So that right now you in effect have that welcoming person if someone comes into the building They usually go to the city clerk and the city clerk is the person that directs them Thank you Alderman Donahue Thank you. I Had a couple one question one observation Given the total redo of City Hall We would still be left with a structure though that is about a hundred years What would be the The natural expectancy of the of the building itself or would the renovations somehow give it new life Yeah, well the renovations would definitely give it new life. I mean this building has lasted a hundred years And it has frankly it hasn't been really well taken care of I think if you renovated this with with what is in the cost and And and kept it maintained it would last another hundred years now with the caveat that Mechanical systems aren't gonna last a hundred years electrical systems aren't gonna last a hundred years But the the bricks and mortar the structure There's no reason why that couldn't last another hundred years if it's properly maintained so always a challenge in the city government The second thing I'm just gonna throw out just for people to think about is that this grand glorious Hall here, and I'm sure it's it's like the courthouse, you know, which was so horribly Divided up and built over. I'm sure it is absolutely gorgeous up there But this is a room that is used twice a month Or when I was in practice we used to the state would would rent it for unemployment compensation hearings and things like that And I think as we're as we're looking forward to it we We should try to be thinking about multi-purpose rooms, you know where ten alder chairs can be brought in There definitely needs to be enough room for the for the public But and I see Mr. Erickson sitting in the back and he'll probably just kill me but the Roka room is a very nice room and It can be set up technology-wise We could actually sit so we can see each other and have good conversations. We could do that. Yes, we could done Come on now a long time we're talking but I mean these are just some things as as Government becomes less important the majesty of government becomes a little less important as time goes on and I think we can be plenty majestic in the Roka room, you know, I think we could probably arrange to use it twice a month So I think though, you know, there are some other things just in terms of space needs I really do think what these folks are thinking about is not a welcome area where people in our community come in to do Fairly limited business, but nonetheless there are people come in. It's just a service center So that it just is a much more efficient way to do business and of course in this community We welcome and they have been enriched by people who speak all kinds of different languages including German My dad was a pharmacist and he learned how to speak pidgin German because you know the ladies in the 50s and 60s still couldn't speak English, but I think that you know that concept I think really works for us and And that we should that that needs to be a key part of whatever it is that we do do But this is this is pretty big unless you know, we can not build out and just you know chop You know put the glass up in other words not expand the building not build it out Even though it looks like a small build out but not do that I mean that might be a way of dealing with the excess space. We still have a huge cost But nonetheless those are just some random thoughts. Thank you elderman Alderman born. Thank you, mr. Chairman originally originally the charge of this Committee was not only to look at City Hall, but also look at a fire department and you know the location The location that would be best for the City Hall and building a fire station would be over on 10th and Wisconsin, and I think if you I Appreciate your suggestion Alderman Lassard But I think the problem with that building that on the first floor is that you would be increasing the The cost of the fire station dramatically over what it could be for example example, excuse me Your napkin math Alderman Hammond the one point three million dollars with that additional 4,000 square feet probably would pay for a fire station Close to it and I envision I envision a new fire station to look similar to our transit building Which is basically a metal building and then they have offices Well in the case of the fire station that would that part that was not the metal building would become the living quarters And I forwarded some information. I don't want to get off track on this But I I forwarded some information to the fire chief mr. Amodio and I think Don and the mayor American steel has built fire stations all over the country and the cost per square foot would be Considerably less than a brick-and-mortar building and I think with putting that on the first floor and a city hall up above Would be drastically more expensive than doing a stand standalone fire station Thank you Alderman Hammond. Just want to make a clarification and I appreciate your comments Jim But the charge of this committee was really to look at alternatives for city hall the fire department kind of got thrown in at the last minute as we found out what was going on with the New York Street Station and the Mead Street Station, so It wasn't the charge of of John's committee to look at What to do with the fire department? I just kind of said to him. Hey by the way, could you Take a peek at this because it came up in conversations that we had You know ideally if we're going to build We'd want to do as much Get these much economies of scale as humanly possible Relative to building both if we can share common areas bathrooms conference rooms all that kind of stuff I'm sure you guys would agree it would work out much smoother So as part of that we certainly want to look but you know the original charge of this committee was to take a look at What to do with this building or? Alternative sites. Thank you Alderain Bellinger. Thank you chairman Thanks down for your clarification for that again, we weren't charged with looking at anything related to the fire department and So in fact, we didn't do that. We concentrated our effort on looking how we were going to solve the problems That were present with this building and this building if you gentlemen Saw the ZS report and you concur with you know the findings in that and in the dollars that were Related to that it's It's there's some significant challenges and in this building has been neglected and if we were to Leave this building in and build new We would either have to tear it down or we would have and there would be some costs with that obviously and lead and asbestos abatement Related to that and or there would be a significant developers Incentive that would have to be put in place to cover the roof the mechanical the windows the the north wall the parapets that are pulling apart the you know all the other problems that are associated with this building so You know so those are some of the things that to keep in mind So when we look at that 10.6 to 11.1 million dollar figure Yeah, it's it's a big number. It's a really big number You know, but if we were to leave this building and build new for the the seven roughly seven million dollars seven point six million dollar figure There would be another three or four million dollars cost of leaving this building or If we were to have a developer develop it and keep it or there would be a cost to demolish it too So there's added cost to that so it becomes more in line to stay here and in Alderman Hammond's Concerns of space needs Have merit do we need everything that that is proposed here, you know probably not But when we get in to the initial stages of these things, you know, that's when we decide, you know What do we need what do we what can we get away with and and what don't we need in in how to build out? To Alderman Donahue's point, can we not do the expansion on the front? I don't think in the architects can correct me if I if I misstate anything But the purpose for that expansion is to get rid of the fire escapes and to put in the stairwells to run mechanical chases and to Become ADA compliant and if you don't do that, there's you have all those Challenges again that you know that we're gonna have so You know, that's That's kind of where we're at so we we've got issues with this building We need to figure out are we staying are we going and you know, how are we gonna address these things and in the feedback? I'm getting from the residents of the city is there is an emotional attachment to this building and they would prefer the people that have Reached out to me would prefer to do what we can to bring this building back to the The shape that it should have been and in take care of it the way we should have been in the past, so Thank You alderman alderman-truster since I am kind of new on the council and was not privy to the The study before this I look at this building and I say part of the charm in this building is Some of the stuff that is here. No not only the outside of the building, but looking at chambers and And the woodwork in this building and I'm wondering does it all have to be gutted To the outside walls and to the floor and start over Can't we use some of what we have? Thank you alderman Heidemann. Thank you chairman Not to get away from the existing City Hall, but the square footage on these other proposals is all the exact same thing now My to be led to believe these that 25,000 square feet that meets our needs for in 2016 and beyond right are we just are we just you're giving us a proposal that you're gonna we're gonna come back and say Oh, yeah, we should put another 10,000 square feet on that building I want to know when these proposals is this are these are meeting our futuristic needs As far as we understand yes that I think it was pointed out that you're not really growing and so there's not a whole lot of growth in that in those numbers now Obviously things can change from year to year, but for from what we know today That should meet your needs in the foreseeable future. Okay. Thank you all the material Yes, thank you. I Guess what I would like to have seen is I know your recommendation was for City Hall and what that was gonna look like I Would have liked to see in what one of these buildings was gonna look like how you would have laid it out How much extra stuff was gonna be in there? I think that comes to Don's saying that maybe there's too much put into these buildings Even that we need I think maybe even seven million is a lot for One of these buildings I think we could have probably done this and maybe a firehouse together because we have both needs in the city If we didn't need all this maybe we don't need all this I would like to see that layout. Maybe it was there and I missed it somewhere Common and it's shared new bathrooms And he kept accessible bathrooms are much larger than the bathrooms that we have today Always a little bit larger. So a lot of it is in circulation when you look at that extra 4,000 square feet It's not all everyone's getting a bigger office so We really did look at today's space How could it best be served We're gonna invest You know or million just in renovating this building in terms of top-pointing windows Central layer. I think it You know, it's is prudent of us then how is it best to serve the public as well as in this space not just Renovate it and say, okay, the building is good. But yet we still poor at Circulating business as we do today Well, that was part of the charge here and what we did is we sat back and looked at what the architects said And what they have done in other communities that have gone through the same process How do we want to conduct business in the future and how we want to serve? We always talk about being more open Well, how many times have we come to this council and there's been a lot of Citizens that have come and we haven't had an alcohol way, haven't had a part of the participation We had an opportunity to open this And make this room But use for other death there's other What we're presenting it's not saying that this is the final plan. This is what we're doing And that's what I was going with that I did look at pictures online as they were talking at St. Francis and Oak Creek But I mean both of those buildings are completely different I mean it would just been nice to see what you were thinking of as a rendering for one of these and how it'd be laid out Just see where that seven million is going compared to just looking at square footage and alright This is what it's going to be. You know what I mean? I just think it'll give us a better idea of What's going on and we do have some examples of those buildings that we used as cost models but we frankly are The the charge of what we were to do did not include those services to design Seven different buildings and several different sites as a we'd love to do it, but I don't think you'd want to pay us for it so but So so and it's not uncommon at all for us to use a program because that defines what you need Defines the needs and we have great historical data that we that those programs turn into so we say 25,000 square feet It might be in the end 22 it might be 27 It's going to be somewhere within that and we feel that you know that should at least give you enough information to make a Educated decision. So what if you'd like to see some of those other? Samples we have those they don't really apply necessarily other than it'll give you an idea of the the some of the finishes the materials and kind of the Space planning that's involved in those that we were envisioning here Thank you Alderman Hyman Thank you. Just to kind of echo. Mr. Bebel's comments You know, I didn't want to leave the illusion that you know the Department heads except for Dave Bebel. We're looking for expanded offices, you know Additional 14 or excuse me additional 2,000 square feet were common areas new conference rooms bathrooms public and staff Break room that type of thing Council chambers was an additional 1,400 square feet. So between those two that's 3,400 of the 4,700 square feet that were additional and then city planning had an additional 900 So, you know those three areas were Made up the majority of that 4,700 square feet. So again, you know No shrine to Dave Bebel over there, but I wanted to give you an idea of where That additional space, you know would be needed into Mary Lynn's comments, you know, maybe we need to look at You know where council meets, you know that that was you know, 2,000 of that 4,700 square feet Pied up in there and again 300 roughly 300 bucks a square Again talking real money Thank you Alderman Warren Thank You, Mr. Chairman just to follow up on what Alderman Tresler had to say I remember back when the police department moved out of City Hall We spent approximately five hundred thousand dollars and part of that was the entrances that we now have in the east and west that are close to the public Supposedly because we're not ADA compliant with that many entrances to City Hall I Think and also what Alderman Bellinger was saying about the walkaway cost if we decided to leave this building That all depends on the kind of a deal you work out with it with a developer They put the you know, they would buy it at a reasonable price. They would probably assume a lot of those costs I don't think that we have to spend three or four million dollars to bring this building up to date and then Some of the improvements that we make are probably not going to be compatible with what they want to design here for apartments or condos So I think our I think your your walkaway costs are tremendously Tremendously on the high side if we have to do any at all and also I don't know, you know who some of the alderman have been talking to I Certainly appreciate and I go along with Alderman Tresler a lot of this stuff in this building is not going to be reproduced And you know, I wouldn't much rather in a way look at using the existing City Hall We've got that we've got a very handy clerk's office down in the first floor It would be more handy if the if the east door was open and the same with the building inspection department We're saving forty thousand dollars a year by not having to rent the office space on the corner for the city attorney's office I think we have to also take a look and maybe we can discuss after these gentlemen are gone But I think we have to take a look and I asked mr. Bevel for this and I appreciate he probably didn't have enough time to get this together But the five or six things that are deemed necessary to make this building as is more Compatible for the future like the heating and air conditioning the roof how much the first thing it has to be done For example the roof how much is that going to cost we do that next year the next year We do heating and air conditioning how much is that going to cost so I Really don't see a lot of problems with this building the way it is except bringing it up to date To a certain extent making making a more ADA compliant I agree for people with physical challenges the way it is right now. It's a it's very Very not it's not easy at all for people to get in here and by putting in a new lift if we decide to stay here Opening up those east and west Entrances and doing the repair and spread those over a four or five year period doing the most critical ones first And I think we could do that for four or five million dollars. Thank you. Thank you Don Thank you. I just wanted to touch on this whole carrying our Transition costs, and I'm certainly not an architect. I do have just one question for you guys to follow up on Rosemarie's and alderman-borns When you guys were looking at the renovations of this building how much of the existing Stop, you know woodworking and things would you guys try to reclaim? As part of that to keep that that history it was that part of anything you guys had considered in the scope We didn't look at it in detail, but we assumed we'd be using as much as is practical The first thing would be probably the interior framing and the windows. That's pretty pretty easy. I mentioned the stairway. We'd keep that We would we would try to reuse as many of the marble panels in the bathrooms as we could And so, you know until we get into the really the nitty-gritty of the design It's a little hard to to specify, you know, what we would do, but we I mean we would Try to use as much of it as possible. I think the majority of what you're talking about is Woodwork so and in just a touch a little bit on You know the walk away cost of the building you know as Jim and I have been involved in a lot of these Deals where we've provided incentives to developers to put things together And typically we've stayed around that 15 to 16 percent of project cost If it's inside a tip so if we're looking at a for example a ten million dollar project You might be looking at a million and a half ish In tiff incentive or whatever incentive is is provided So when you're talking about walk away cost if we're looking at it, you know Seven and a half million dollar project add another you know million and a half to two depending again on the size and scope of The project that we you know entail We've had some conversations nothing Formal with that with people, but I think Chad or Jim one or two. It's what ten or twelve ten twelve million where they were For to put the apartments in here Did they Yeah, so it's about 12 million so you're looking at probably million seven ish of of if we stuck with our kind of 15 percent You know rule of thumb that we've stuck to kind of over the last you know several years as part of those negotiations So hopefully that puts a little color on the conversation about the walk-away costs You know going forward again if somebody was going to take over the building We're not going to put a ton of money into it obviously because to Jim's point They're going to put their own stamp on it, but that just gives you a little color around that conversation Thank you. I'll learn growing. Thank you chairman. We'll just real quickly I'm looking at everything and I'm thinking about this one thing I'd like to consider is doing maybe a two-phase project plan where we're not doing this all at one Maybe we cut this in half and we look at the the necessities of doing the structural repair as needed on in particular on that side But repurposing what we already have Enhancing it to to a certain point maybe addressing some of the welcome if you will the the flow and the coming in here For people the one thing I would like to say is if we have extra room and extra spaces Perhaps those do not get developed right away Perhaps that stays in the basement as is an even part of some of the structure that's happening And just start with something that would help us get to where we need to be to get upgraded and then look at down the line Here maybe a five or ten-year project scope what we would do for the next phase Right now we have a lot of road repair that still needs to be addressed and I think you know I'm hearing from taxpayers. We have to really be careful about how we spend our money But do it do it smartly and I think the infrastructure of starting with what we need to do here Can be built upon and not thrown away so it might be a smart way to look at it Thank you. Well, I'm a little sad. Thank you I'm just wondering what are the costs to fix what's broke right now and not change any of the rooms and not change any of the bathrooms What how much is it going to cost just to fix what's broke? And I thought you it's a Four million. Yeah, according to the ZS study. It's three point nine and that's about a year old now So factor inflation to it four million just to fix what's broke Obviously that doesn't have to occur all at the same time, but it would be staged out could be the next three five years You're going to be Approaching that figure. Thank you. Excellent. Thank you Older men down here. I'm thinking I'm just I'm wondering if we are at the point where we need to be thinking about What our next steps are going to be? The the design that you folks drew is really lovely I am concerned about it being somewhat overbuilt And I think all of us are concerned about the cost I haven't heard from a lot of people but the people I have heard from are not happy about 11 million dollars for a 100-year-old building They're just not But I haven't heard from that many people so that's Hardly a bellwether So I think Alderman steel brought up a good point The focus has been on renovating City Hall, I think at least two of the additional sites are worth looking at in more detail And I think if we had a Basic visual of what that might look like You know beyond just the square in the rectangle that might be helpful I'm I'm a little disappointed that the building use committee did not consider Hiring a real estate agent to go out and see what is out there in terms of existing buildings That would not cost that much to remodel. I do appreciate, you know, you folks looked at the press and and Nemshoff I Think the Nemshoff building We're kind of at the point where a city hall doesn't have to be grand and it I mean We aren't quite as romantic about municipal government if we ever were You know, we aren't so much anymore, but I really think so I'm asking for all of us kind of what our next steps are This is a classic case. I mean this has been an extremely good discussion, but moving forward It's really hard with you know, 15 of us to figure out, you know, what the next steps are and maybe You know to ask building use to To consider some existing buildings and Depending on the cost of course and being very sensitive to your time and and efforts Looking at, you know, at least two of those sites. I think are decent sites and you just Happened to put the fire station there and it was not the charge of the building use committee to look at the fire station but you know, that might be something that we want to look at and So I'm just thinking building use should meet again I think there's only one alder which is is is Alderman Bellinger and I think I attended two of the three meetings and I think if more of us just attended so You know, we could get a little bit more input and then maybe come back and have this discussion again in a more Focused way and not to say that this With the decision this big you have to start somewhere and I think we have done that tonight But I think we need to move forward in a Not organized fashion, but more focused fashion at this at this at this time. Thank you Chad Follow-up to Mary Lynn's comments. We did a thorough search of every building We didn't necessarily work with a realtor, but we worked with our building inspection department We worked with SCEDC and Ourselves and looked at every building in the immediate downtown that could potentially work for a city hall The challenge is is we don't have a lot of space. That's over 10,000 square feet. That's you know, the issue So if we're looking at a building of 15,000 to 25,000 square feet That's going to be conducive and work well, and it doesn't have to be a grand building There's nothing that big in the downtown That was that that's the challenge and then what came out of it was the Sheboygan press building and the Nemchoff building the Nemchoff building I think is 12,000 20,000 20,000 square feet total I spoke with the owner of that building because I heard rumors on the street that Nemchoff was leaving and he said to his knowledge There's nothing they're not leaving and they just extended their lease So there's you know, that was the only opportunity of a building that seemed to work in that realm And we talked about in detail Separate from the building use committee, but at staff level over Opportunities for other buildings in that in the area and there really is nothing And you made the key assumption that City Hall does need to be downtown I think that's a good assumption, but it's one that we haven't talked about and and that that could be station is no longer downtown and I'm not saying that it shouldn't be downtown But that is an assumption that was made Yeah, and and I guess if that's the direction of the council to look at areas outside of the downtown for a city hall Then that's what you can go back and look at those buildings But we looked at the buildings in and in and around the media downtown Thank you. Just a real quick question for the group What would you say or suggest to the to the council would be the next step moving forward? And then I'll have a few more older persons ask some questions What would our next step be what would you recommend to the council? well Why it sounds like it's coming down to dollars and cents Primarily, I understand it always does so I think maybe we do look at you know, if you could give us more direction on We talked about expanding the the scope of the of the area that we're looking at I mean, I guess that would be the first thing that we would want to start on Maybe we need to sit down again and and with staff and with the committee and look at at the needs The perceived needs that program, please if we need to get it less than 25,000, how do we do that? We need some direction on that So I think we sort of need to pull back a little bit and sort of revisit some of the things we visited and then expand However, you deem Appropriate, okay. Thank you all the material Yes, one thing I know that came up Is if we did do city hall we have to I mean we're gonna take everything out Where are we gonna put everybody and roughly did we did anybody have a cost for that? Because that's a lot of people we got to put somewhere and if we need a building that's gonna house How many square feet where are we gonna put all these people and we're gonna put all the files where we're gonna put everything and I just want to bring up because Mr. Peters is here any comment before did we ever look at maybe building on to the army doing the armory and That was one of his concerns, and I think we should at least ask that. Thank you All the Alderman Bellinger Thank you chairman when this group got together one of the Things that we were charged with doing was to figure out can this current city hall be reconfigured in such a way that we could conduct business in a more efficient manner moving forward because everybody Can concur that the current way that we're doing business isn't the most efficient way based on the Limitations within the current layout of the building so quite frankly the people on the committee were very skeptical that that could be achieved and It kind of looked at one point in time. We were looking at it You know the only option would be to build new and leave this building and The architects came back with this and said no we've got got an idea we can make this work and There was some added cost to it But you know that that's that's what we looked at and to Alderman feels point of the relocation That's been discussed there hasn't been any numbers put forth, but David Beable has been working on that and it wouldn't be you know hundreds of thousands of dollars is what I've been told It wouldn't be anything like that. It would be something you know something less than that and You know so You know that's that that's kind of where we're at and I would challenge Alderman Hammond to You know his his 12 to 15 percent You know figure for you know for development, you know incentives is you know I believe it's all been new construction It hasn't been leaving an existing building like this that needs a new roof needs new HVAC needs new windows The parapets are coming apart the north wall is gonna you know is pulling apart the floor I mean if you look at the ZS report I mean it's significant the amount of work that needs to be done and The dollars are significant too. So You know I Would think that for somebody that was gonna take over a building in that kind of condition would want to have You know that cost covered Thank You Alderman Hammond. Thanks. First that was just what we've done historically With development the council obviously has the parameters to do whatever they want You know, I don't know that it makes sense for us to go much higher than that 15 to 18% because oftentimes the math doesn't work out when we're dealing with tips and tits and those types of things Just what we've done is a rule of thumb. I agree Secondly, I think to Alderperson Donahue's comment and you know, thank you guys It sounds like I don't want you to feel like you're getting peppered up here But obviously this is a something that's been kicked down the road and when they decided to take a look at it again There's a lot of opinions. I think to be fair to the building use committee and to our Consultants we need as a body to determine what a budget is going to be for this that that I think is the next step We have to determine what we're willing to spend. We know now what the ranges are roughly if we want to keep Operating out of here versus building new and we can tweak around the edges You maybe get that cost down, but we have to determine as a body What cost or what amount of money we're willing to spend To accomplish this and then what that needs to look like To ask these guys to go back and even the building use and by the way as a side note for those that are here from the building use That was pretty much all citizen members So I appreciate your time and energy and efforts in what you did Throughout those meetings. I know it's not easy dealing with government. Obviously. We have a lot of opinions. So We need to give them a budget that they can work within to develop what we want Or what we believe is the best option for the city and I believe that that's where we need to start Is What amount of money are we willing to spend? I don't know if we're gonna be able to hash that out tonight In fact, I'm certain we're not going to be able to I think that's a conversation for Another meeting. There's a few other things that go into that like bonding More than likely if we spend 11 million dollars, we don't have that sitting in savings So there's gonna be some death that needs to be taken out to deal with that So I think again, I don't mean to beat this dead horse But the next step I really believe is figuring out how much do we want to spend if the answer is we're not willing To spend 11 million dollars then renovating City Hall is probably off the table If the answer is we're only willing to spend 5 million the question is do we bring City Hall up to Code or whatever John and Dave we're talking about or do we build a scaled-down version of what our friends at Bray presented? Those are the decisions we have to make going forward because they have them guys drop a much more pretty pictures For buildings that we're not willing to spend the money on is kind of a waste of time in my opinion so again, I think our next step is this body to provide a budget and Maybe hone in a little bit more on what we want to see And then go back to them so they're not wasting their time and the committee's not wasting their time Thank you Any more questions? Comments Yes, mr. Bellinger. Thank you chairman Olderham, and I agree with you. I think that's a good next step. I Make a motion to refer this The budget, you know a budgetary number in a decision to come up with a funding source and what that dollar is gonna be Just strategic fiscal planning. Mr. Heidermann. I'm sorry. We have a motion We have a second motion in a second questions. Well, what I was gonna do is I Took an informal survey of people that I knew that are all taxpayers and they said rather than spend 11 million build new and And that was overwhelmingly anybody Anybody that I talked to said rather than invest that type of money As because we have roads to fix we have other other obligations to our citizens other than building a brand Taj Mahal Out of an older building, but I'm willing to send this back to committee too. All right. Thank you older material Thank you. I think when it comes to a dollar amount I think In my eyes it looks different if we just do city hall or if we do have the other need of a fire department I like to see us combine both because we got two needs that we have and I would if it goes back to that committee They're coming out with a dollar about I like to see a dollar amount Getting both things done so we can get a bolt on At the same time at a reasonable cost because I think that'll reflect the dollar more better Mr. Hammond, I think as part of this we have to look at both So I think we need to set a budget Because we don't have our arms around yet what the fire department's needs are we've been working on it But we don't have our arms around that So I think we need to look at both and if we can create some economies of scale between the two Obviously, that's only going to save us, you know more money So I think the strategic fiscal as they look at these dollar amounts should look at if we did a standalone city hall And if we combine the two and what the budget would be Any further questions up Alderman born Getting back to what Alderman Lissard asked about what is it going to cost just to bring this thing up to code? I'd really like some Firm numbers on what it's going to cost to bring this up to code ADA and the other things the heating and air conditioning the roof And then also laid out What's the most important probably the roof do we do that next year? What do we do the next year and over a five-year period what that's going to cost us just to bring this this place up The code without doing a you know a total we got as one of the options Okay, thank you Dave is that something you can put together in a relatively Right, but the priority of what needs to happen for a second third. Thank you. Okay, so we have a first and a second Any further questions? Okay All in favor Or I'm sorry The numbers you said no, there's no there's no numbers it was a motion to refer Just strategic pistol planning to come up with a budget Yeah, let's do a roll call I Eyes have it All right, so our next meeting date which we yeah, we don't will be to be determined and Motion to adjourn most to adjourn We're adjourned all in favor. Thank you You