 Okay. The committee of the whole will come to order, please. It's so nice to see all these fabulous looking voice scouts here tonight. This is a wonderful surprise. Thank you for coming and welcome. Come any time. Tonight should be a very pleasant kind of short meeting. Thanks for coming. Could you call the roll? Bowman. Excuse. Dear Eber, Sirta, Davis, Kettleson, Manny, Meijer, Montemarro, Radke, Sagalli, Steppen, Sousa, Van Akron, Vander wheelie, 15 present, Madam Chairman. The quorum is present. Thank you. Steve asked me to remind you to wear your microphone, speak into the microphone so that all of our listeners at home can hear us. And everybody in the gallery can hear us also. Tonight we've met for the presentation of new ideas from all of the Alderman for possible police department sites, and we have lots of ideas. I wanted to ask Alderman, are there any priorities? Are they listed in the priority that you've given me? For instance, Jean is, no, it's not. Okay, so there isn't any, did anybody have any priorities that you wanted us to add to your list? Yes. Just on my list where you see numbers slash behind, because that was a number of phone calls or emails or whatever that I may have received. It's in no priority order. And I just ticked everything as they called or emailed me. Okay, thank you, Alderman Graf. These will be probably submitted to the city development and planning and also to the director of public works in engineering department. Not that they're going to decide for us, but they can look these over and perhaps have bits of information about the sites that we may not have thought of, things that would work extra well or things that wouldn't. Because they certainly know the landscape of the city and what areas might work the best. Do any of you Alderman want to say any words about any of your ideas? Alderman Danberg. Thank you, Madam Chair. That's all I want to say is when this is turned over to the planning and to Tom Holton and them, I just hope that Chief Kirk and Deputy Chief Weiss are included in this because remember that they're the ones that are going to be operating out of these facilities and I hope that they're included from the day one. Well, thank you, Alderman Danberg. We certainly do want to get information from them, but I don't know if they will meet with the planning department and the engineering because with the planning department and engineering, we want that particular information from them. And I think by the end of May, we'll have the needs assessment from Zimmerman. So that definitely will be the police included on that one. Anyone else want to add anything to their ideas or their idealist? Well, this is going to be a smooth, quick meeting. Yes, Alderman. What do you anticipate the planning department to do to review all of these to make sure that there's what acreage we have and things like that working with also the assessor's office and coming up with possible acquisition costs and things like that, or is that too early for that? Whatever information they can tell us that we might not know about each site and who knows what they may know that we don't know. Alderman Jeff Racky. Madam Chair, one thing I'd like to add to what I brought in here this evening is I did talk to Tom Holtman. There is a bit of a floodplain issue on that and he said it's not something that's totally gonna rule the site out and I do realize that I just omitted to put it into there for the simple reason being I put the email to Tom last week and he was on vacation, didn't get back until late this morning so I didn't have a chance to put it in there but I do realize there's a floodplain issue down there they would need to raise it up somewhat but he said it's not totally, something that totally ruled out so just want to make that clarification. Thank you Alderman Racky. Alderman Eldenberg. Thank you Madam Chairman, just as a note, I think it's good that we're having city staff do some of the work to get this in preparation but I think it would also be wise to have our finance director and city attorney modify whatever contracts we need with our design consultants in as much as eventually this will be turned over to them because they'll be doing the siting and in order to have this smooth of transition as possible I guess what I'd like to see is coincident to this to have if you would the city attorney and finance director perhaps our purchasing agent negotiate either a per hour charge or some mechanisms so as we develop three or four priority sites we have some idea of what that study cost will be to us. Study cost, thank you, thank you so much Alderman Berg. Alderman Meyer. Madam Chair, I was just wondering in the new police station are we looking at a firing range in the police station or is it going to be separate like they talked about a couple or a month ago and are we still looking at a municipal court? And none of those things are up to me but I would imagine all of those things will be taken into consideration as we progress. Thank you Alderman Meyer. Alderman Stephan. Yes Madam Chair, I've read through these as we've gotten them and I think they're wonderful and they encompass, I didn't write mine down but they encompass everything I've been, anybody's told me, I even thought the one I, I thought I had one different one but even Alderman Shusha got that one with the cross from the KC hall. The question I just wanted to say as we move forward on this looking at potential sites, the amendment I brought that brought us here dealt with the procedure and I think at the same time we should be working in the backgrounds to think of getting everybody working like Alderman Berg and Berg mentioned and Alderman Meyer, what's the procedure from here? Okay, we're looking at sites and what are we gonna do? What's the next step, the next step? At what point is the police department in? At what point is the county planning or not the county planning but the development staff in and what point do we give it to Zimmerman? How many are we gonna give them? We could probably be working, as our city experts are looking at the different sites, I don't know if you would bring in a document or Mr. Graff or Mayor Perez, as somebody's gotta start with their idea of what the procedure should be and then the council as a whole can agree on it after that. But I think my whole concept was if we agree on the procedure, we're much more likely to at least accept the final decision and I think we should, at the same time, be moving on the procedure. A plan and a timeline and yes. Right. Thank you Alderman Steffen. Alderman Susha. Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Just for the sake of the people watching at home and the people that came down to see this meeting tonight I'd like to just quickly rattle off a number of Alderman had prepared a number of suggestions and I'd like to just quickly name off some of the sites. On the first one would be on the west side of the river near Thompson Marine, Penn Avenue site, the former drop off site, Cargill site, Remodel City Hall, Penn Avenue between Commerce and 13th behind the present station, 6th and Penn, the old drop off site, between Nemshoff office building and the old Baxter building on 8th Street, South Business Drive and Broadway Avenue, Western part of the Cargill property, the old drop off site which is 19th Street in New Jersey, the North 23rd Street site, Penn Avenue site, RCS building, Century Building, Old Waste Center on New Jersey Avenue, next to City Hall, build it behind City Hall, across the street from City Hall, 23rd Street site, 19th in New Jersey, build it in a central location, the Grand Hotel, across from the KC Hall, the old Century location, the Green Warehouse, possibly Rockline building, near Penn Avenue, Schreier Moulting building, North 23rd Street site, some suggestions keep detectives at the existing police station, possibly build two different divisional stations, one on the north side, one on the south, 9th and St. Clair on the northeast corner, remodel the present station and add an additional floor, the bus transfer site across from the present police station, 828 Center which is the police station, 19th in New Jersey, 13th in Penn, 6th in Penn, and 705 South 15th Street site of the vacant cargo plant. Thank you. Thank you, Alderman Sousha, that's a good idea that you did that, thanks. Okay. I mean, I just... President of the council, Graf said, do we want to bring in more ideas as we continue? I suppose if some hallelujah idea comes, let's not throw it away, thanks. Alderman Manning. Thank you, Madam Chair. This is quite a theoretical question at this point, but I would like Steve McLean to address the council about eminent domain. Several sites have private properties that would have to be purchased. Perhaps those people would not be willing to sell if one site came out to be deemed highly desirable and at the top of the list, except for the fact that there are two owners who are not interested in selling. What is the doctor of eminent domain if I have my terms correct and what's the law? Thank you, Madam Chairman and Councilor. Eminent domain is basically taking property and paying just compensation for it. Statutes and the state constitution, federal constitution allows municipalities to acquire property by eminent domain, which means basically involuntarily. The process is if you've focused in on an area that you're pretty sure you're not gonna have a willing seller to, there's a statutory process for getting appraisal, making a, what's it called? A jurisdictional offer where you prepare formal written offer. You offer the appraised value for the property and the property owner has a period of time, generally it's about 20 days in which to accept or reject the jurisdictional offer. If they accept the jurisdictional offer, you proceed like you would basically as though it were a voluntary transaction where you set up a sort of a closing. The private property owner is entitled to get an appraisal at the city's expense and then come back and attempt to negotiate with that appraisal. If once you make the jurisdictional offer, you kind of locked into that number for down the road as far as whether the condom knee would be entitled to costs and attorney fees. There's a, I think it's 15% if the ultimate value or price that you end up paying for the property is more than 15% of the jurisdictional offer then they're entitled to their costs and attorney fees. Basically anyway, going back, if the property owner does not accept the jurisdictional offer, then the municipality can acquire the property and pay the compensation that they deem appropriate and then the property owner's right is to, if they so choose, is to appeal the amount of just compensation but the city would have the right to take the property and then basically the property owner has the right to argue about whether or not they receive just compensation under the statute and the constitution. Just compensation is generally deemed to be a fair market value, factoring in the highest and best use for the property. The price that a buyer and a willing seller would come to. There's various appeal avenues for appealing that. You can go, the appellant can either go to the county condemnation commission and the hearing is held, sort of administrative hearing and if either party doesn't like that result they can then go to circuit court and people don't like that result. You appeal to the court of appeals and so forth. But under eminent domain basically the city has the right to take the property and the property owner has the right to argue the value, the just compensation but there's a limited period for them to contest the city's ability to take but generally the statutes are very limited on litigants or condom needs attempt to challenge the right to take. It's different say for school districts and things. There's a period in which a larger period when the, and I think school district even has to go to court to get the court to say that you got the right to take the property but municipalities take and the condom need can challenge the amount. And during the whole process where there might be a challenge as to the just compensation, the city owns the property and can use it for its purposes. Two further questions. One is the law does not provide for any relocation costs or lost business costs. Secondarily, how long a timeframe could such a process take if in fact we chose to pursue it? Raised, couple of issues there. Relocation, there is statutory relocation. Depends on what's, what there currently is on the site. If it's a residence. I don't know all the ins and outs but if it's a business there's a certain, I think it's $50,000 statutory business relocation payment that they're entitled to in addition to the just compensation. There's periods of time that they're allowed to stay in the facility. If you can't make a reasonably comparable alternative site available to them. So if it's say a business you're condemning you have to be able to and you hire a relocation expert to try to locate another site that would be reasonable and suitable for that business. And it's all statutory, a lot of the administrative rules deal with the dollar amounts and the time limits as far as the relocation assistance. But there are those rights available. And let's see the other part of your timeline. As far as the taking, the taking is fairly short process. You have the council passes, it's escaping me what the terminology is, a basically a notice of intent to initiate the condemnation process. Then you do an appraisal and you make a jurisdictional offer. The party has 20 days in which to accept or reject the statutory jurisdictional offer. Again, if they reject it you then can issue your award of damages which is basically the taking. From that point on you own the property and you argue over the just compensation. So in the scheme of things if you get appraisals and things like that the other party is entitled to have an appraisal done at your expense. You're talking, you know, probably four months. Does that answer all your questions? Thank you, Alderman Manny. Thank you, Attorney McLean. Alderman Vanderweel. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. This is a great list of sites. After planning looks at it or the department has looked at it I would ask to have a community whole meeting and tell us why every site didn't make it for whatever reason cause 300 million to build it, whatever. And that would be a good reason. Yes. And priority sites was mentioned. I think this committee should pick two priority sites. If we pick any more than two the station's never gonna be built because the priority is to get this police station built. And I've heard over three years I've heard hundreds of sites. Every site in the city they could think of. But right now what I hear the most is just stop talking about it and build it already. So thank you. Thank you, Alderman Vanderweel. Alderman Sagali. Thank you, Madam Chair. All I told my people that I would say is that most of them voice their opinion and they want the station centrally located so that it's all available to everybody throughout the city. And I told them I would so mention that they want it centrally located. Thank you, Alderman Sagali. Any more discussion this evening? Alderman Meyer. Thank you, Madam Chair. I was just wondering if the county is willing to sit down with us, no matter what site we decide to choose if we don't choose the 23rd Street site and if they're willing to come in and discuss other kinds of shared services we can do no matter where we build. I would think so, I think, yeah. Because it isn't just shared services with a police. There's lots of shared services we have to pursue all those ideas. Thank you, Alderman Meyer. Alderman Kiddelsen. Yes, Madam Chair. Can I just to clarify for me, now there are several sites, now can we expect an answer on each one of these sites now? Is that what we're going to be doing and then are they gonna be compiling a list of the top choices? Do we know that yet? I don't know that they'll be listing the top choices but they'll give us all the information they can about these sites and then we as a council have to perhaps go from there. Thank you, Alderman Kiddelsen. Alderman Radke. Madam Chair, what type of a timeline are we looking at from planning and public works and engineering and everybody else? Are we gonna give them a certain timeline like say 60 or 90 days or what's the timeline on that? The timeline for- On these sites. The ones this evening for them to look at and give us, I was hoping that in our next committee of the whole meeting they could give us some information. I'll talk to them and I would think they could give us some information. Maybe if not all of it, lots of it. Does that make sense? What's our next committee of the whole meeting? That's one of our questions to talk about tonight. All right. Is that, that's my question, President Graf. I think we probably don't want to meet next Monday at being Memorial Day but I'd comment if you wanted to. And is Monday the best? And I think there's no other way than just raise your hand if Monday is the best. Okay, it looks like Monday's, okay, let's go with Monday's for committee of the whole meetings. We could have a committee of the whole meeting the first Monday in June, which I think would be what, the sixth? Council, council, council, before the council, you know at six o'clock and then go on to council at seven or we could do it on the next Monday and then have a longer timeframe. And there again, I think the best way is simply if it makes no difference to you, raise your hand both times. If it does make a difference, raise it just the one time. Alderman Berg. I think if we would have that committee at a whole on the 13th of June, that would give the planning and Holton and them guys a little bit more time to figure everything out. They could come back, they could come up with a, you know, with some better ideas for us. Thank you Alderman Berg. And I certainly want to make this as convenient as possible for everybody. So you do have notice rather than these quick meetings. June 13, Monday night, June 13, six o'clock, it's set. Yes, President Graf, he has something to say. If you could hold it off till 6.30 because that's also the night finance meets and we meet at 5.15 and occasionally we do have like an issue right now is the upcoming budget that we'll have to be talking about. So if we could be like at 6.30, I'm sure the meeting would be over at that time. That's good information, thank you. All right, class, 6.30, 6.30 on the 13th. Those in favor of sending to city development planning also director of public works and engineering signify by saying aye. Aye. All right. I'll entertain. Move to adjourn. Appolised. Thank you. Motion passes. As Alderman Byrne. Thank you so much.