 There's like a different theme for every week. So like last week, the theme was, came up from the group of, you know, so many times we talk about like coping skills for how to deal with anger, how to get to know your anger, and that's done through a variety of therapeutic methods like mandalas and, you know, inside-outside techniques. But last week, one of the young people were like, well, what about when you get angry at yourself? And I was like, oh, that's true, that's important. So we did like, just like a visual expression of how you get anger at yourself. And I put out materials and young people come in. Sometimes young people are encouraged to go to art anger because they are seen as people who have not a connected relationship to their anger. And other times people like to come in and talk about it and make art in the setting and so that- So it sounds like it works a little bit both. Because as you're doing things, people are talking about stuff. Yeah, and that helps too, sometimes to be doing things to help with their talking. And also it's interesting because a lot of people are like, oh, this person's an artist, they should be an art therapy. And sometimes that's like right on. And other times they can't get the artist's eye away from their work. You're not there critiquing them. No, no, you're not there critiquing them. That's nice to get- Before you said you wanted to win. Everyone wins. It's a situation where everyone wins. Everyone wins. It really is, because you express something, you discover something. And if you don't express something or you don't discover something, at the very least you have the therapeutic opportunity of exploring with art materials. So there's really, no way we're not winning here. So yeah, and where I work has dinner. I'm a youth worker and I'm an art therapist. Feel free to ask the details. I just am like, ooh. Yeah, no, I just find it, I find it, I guess we were time before, but I feel like it's, there's a bravery in committing your life to trying to make things better. Yeah. Right? And also separating what better means, right? And separating what better means. Cause like, better looks a lot of different ways, success looks a lot of different ways, surviving trauma looks a lot of different ways, so yeah, that's a big part of it. But there's a lot of holding in there. We had this talk back the other day and one thing that happens often at the talk backs is people talk about the mother in the play and frame it like in some ways that she's the antagonist, even though people aren't necessarily sure. Your allegiance does tend to switch at times, but the talk backs seem to kind of always go there a little bit with the idea that she's seeking revenge, which is not, I don't think she is, I think she's seeking radical healing. Right. And Glen, you said something at the end of the, kind of the end of the talk back that regarding that end of the play, which we don't have to say what happens, but could you talk about that? Sure, I think that everyone has a different relationship in watching theater to needing or wanting catharsis, right? Like I think that some people are able to be like, okay, I was moved and I don't have a closed satisfied feeling or I was, and sometimes I think I'm the type of audience member who if I don't find it, I find it for myself, right? Cause I'm like, no, no, I wanna, I go more into the characters and whatnot. And I think also what is beautiful about these characters is, yeah, you're, you know, I think the language use was like allegiances. They like, you know, for some people they change, they're like, wait a minute, it's very complex and rich. But for me, I found a lot of catharsis in, that someone made boundaries, that the mother character made a boundary, and that was my catharsis. And when people are, it just, to me it was very, obviously I've seen it in people I work with, I've seen it in people I love, that when you're part of like a family that has a lot of trauma and abuse in it, that like, a lot of times the only ways to stop those cycles is by creating a boundary. And that boundary is not, that can impact the unit, the family in ways that are ugly or are hurtful or the audience may judge, but those boundaries, I think are necessary for breaking cycles of abuse and trauma. So that's what I, yeah, I never for a minute was like, she's getting revenge or, you know. But I, yeah, we kind of talked a little bit about too that some theater goers who might be older might sympathize with the care of the father character and like, just like, developmentally when we reach certain stages, we're thinking about that somewhere, subconsciously not, what is gonna be my care, who will make sure I'm treated with respect, when I get older, if I have medical issues, if I have cognitive issues, and I think it's something to explore. I don't know, this is off the therapist books, but I think if you live a life where you treat people like shit, you don't get to decide that they're gonna treat you real good when you're old. Like, I don't know, like, I mean, and that I think everyone deserves to be treated with respect, but if you wanna make sure that happens. You might want to treat people a little better. Yeah, those are some of my thoughts. Like, going back to talking about Paige, Taylor, you had mentioned at one point that there's this moment where she's staging this pub art therapeutic moment of this puppet show at which point the play might turn into something else. Like, it's kind of straining against the boundaries of what the play is. And I'm trying not to give anything away here, but the play is more or less on a unit set with a more or less, it obeys the laws of verisimilitude more or less. And then there's this one moment where it's straining against that. I guess my question is, like, what might the play become? And what was your impetus? Like, you know, and what did you become the loser of that? I think in a lot of ways it's, so for me, the play is set in that family kitchen sink drama because it feels like it's wanting to break free of that. So the characters are trying to break free of that form of the nuclear family form and of the middle class, great American middle class form. And they're pressed up against the fourth wall. It feels like throughout the whole play. And one of the characters, particularly, and probably two of them, like, let's get out. Look, we could break that wall. We could go out into the house. We could create performance art, you know? And the other two characters, or at least one of the other main character is basically saying, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not safe out there, you know? I don't know how to, I don't know how I'm gonna take care of myself out there. And I don't know how to heal myself out there. I know how to heal myself in here. So there's that conflict that happens. And it's not like they're really talking about, it's not meta, they don't talk about the fourth wall. They're not talking about performance art. They're not talking any of that stuff, but it's just that the sense of the form is being dictated by the content. The father's like, non-consensual performance art. Yeah, the father's non-consensual performance art. Like, it's happening in the wall. Yeah. Who knew? Yeah, I think a sequel might include like, the father just kind of wanders out into the house, you know? Yeah. Like, you know? There were ideas early on that the play would explode, that the house would burn down, that some crazy thing would happen in the house. There were gonna be, I was gonna have all these rats that were under people's seats. They were like, I was certainly like underneath that, because it started to vibrate and then mechanically run around the space. And there was gonna be all this stuff that I had ideas about. And ultimately I just said, no, I think maybe it's better just to press them up against the glass. The shadow puppetry show is maybe, we see how fabulous it could be, right? We see how fabulous their lives could be. Like, they actually were having a really good time putting on this shadow puppetry show. Yeah, everyone's participating. The art brings people together, you know? Yeah. I mean, that unit set, American family realistic play has been kind of the dominant form for so long. I mean, since like the late 19th century into the 20th century. What is it, and you specifically use that as a box to put the play in and it's kind of pressing up against the edges. What does the form connote to you? What does it mean? Like, what is the, is there like a meaning of that it carries for you that you chose to use it this way? Does that question make sense? Yeah. I think because primarily men are produced in the American theater, it takes a form of masculinity for me. Because primarily, not that men are masculine, but you see where I'm going with that. And I think it takes to, what it means to me is a championing, a championing of middle brow culture and middle class culture and a championing of of things that are recognizable and a certain amount of comfort. I just got into this, I almost got into a conversation about this earlier today with someone online and I just stopped myself. Don't do it, Taylor. Don't do it. Boundaries. And it was basically the, that urban blight, I travel around the country a lot, as does Glenn and everywhere I go, I see that urban blight is taking over, taking over, taking over. And that has a lot to do with the fact that we have been telling middle class stories and creating, making sure that the middle class are seen and heard and that they feel comfortable and safe and that they feel important. And we've been doing that in our culture for over a hundred years now. And it feels like one of the casualties, there's some great things have come from it, but one of the casualties is urban blight and a kind of homogenization of the culture. So that's, so I respond to it that way. I mean, I have lots of different feelings. They're not all negative about it, but yeah. So I guess that's what the form means to me. And even though I find it a moving form, I mean, obviously it can be very useful. And what is it, what kind of, what's the form that your plays performances take, Glenn? The Shadow Puppet Show is what my references take. It's a form, I did study theater in undergrad and I found that there wasn't, there wasn't like a lot of space for who I was in the form. And it was a huge, amazing awakening that I got as a, like luckily got as a very young person that you can not live in the form and create your own work. I think I named my form Visual and Theatrical Daring. That's what I've named it. Visual and Theatrical Daring. That makes sense. Yeah. So that's like, I feel like what I've named it. But I found absurd realism to be inspirational. Yeah. I did. Absurd realism being that it's all a realistic circumstance, but it's just showcasing some of the absurdity in that circumstance. So, which is slightly different from Theater of the Ridiculous, I think. Whereas Theater of the Ridiculous might take, you've got to make change in for the meal or you have a meal and you pay for it and the check comes and you've got a moment where you're splitting the bill. And then you kind of, oh well I paid this much, this much, this much and you're like, okay. And it just goes on forever. It might go on for like 30 minutes instead of the usual minute that it would take. Absurd realism would just be the minute that it actually takes to do it. But it would put that beat and then the next beat would also be another crazy moment. Like I always use the example of the blinds broke in the house, the sun comes in every single day, nobody's fixed the blinds for 10 years, but at a certain point everyone in the house puts on sunglasses. That is something that has happened in my family. And that is absolutely absurd. So it creates an absurd image, but it's completely part of the reality of our lives. Anyways, that was, but that's not what you're doing on that stage. No, no, no, I'm not, but I appreciate it. I was like, yeah, it's absurd realism, like it worked. I saw, yeah, it was like I think a magnificent way to communicate that story. And what I'm doing is usually solo, but not always. And yeah, visual and theatrical daring is what I call it. When I was younger, there was a lot less text because I didn't, it was a lot more movement, tap dancing, spandex sacks. And then as I got older, I got a little, less and less scared of using text in my work. And so it's come in more and more. I struggle with linear, but always start projects thinking, this is the one that's gonna be linear. And then it doesn't always go that way. But we'll see, because it keeps being the one, you know? But why do you feel the need for there to be one? We weren't just, it was funny because we were just talking about, I was talking about what I was working on and I like very sheepishly was saying, you know, I think I'm working on a play about my mother. And I don't know why I said it so sheepishly because everyone I've told is like, great, that's wonderful. But I think as people who are put in or identify with performance art, that, you know, where you're like, oh, I shouldn't be doing a play about my mother. Like it's too, like we're scared of the cliche, right? But like actually it's beautiful. And I have to be like, I'm doing a play about my mother. Like, you know, and that, we'll see how that looks. I mean, right now it's linear. Yeah, people would only say to me, I wrote this play years ago called The Young Ladies Of and people would always say, oh, it's your father play. Every playwright has to kill their father and their mother. Why do people do that? And I was like, oh, I guess it's not valid now. Oh, it is valid, it's so valid. I saw that play. But it's art therapy, right? It's, I mean, drama therapy or art therapy. Or art therapy, whatever. It's that thing that you do in order to heal. And I think sometimes when you... And understand. Yeah, to heal and to like, I think also to understand because like when we, if we're lucky to grow up in families that feel relatively safe and take care of us, it's like weird, you're just put there with these people who are processing their own drama and hopefully not putting it on you, but probably a little. And it is, you know, when you're growing up, you're just there and you're part of it. But you do, it takes a lifetime to process that shit. Oh wait, are you not supposed to curse at Symposium? No, you're fine. I think I have to curse whenever I want. Thanks, thanks. I love, I think I work with young people. I can't ever curse when I love to curse. What? Really? Well, I say that we can curse in art and anger, but only in that group. Because sometimes it's very satisfying and you can't curse at anyone. You can just curse about things. But I think like the rules of the, you know, we're all just trying to make a lot of different safer spaces. So what do you think about this safe space thing? No, I said, did you hear me? I said safer. Safer, okay. Safe space, it doesn't exist. Yes! But when you're in concentrated areas with people who have experienced and are processing a lot of trauma currently or crisis, I think it's a good A for effort to make it safer. And that can include like not using certain language and stuff like that. But that's my... I mean, you always want people to listen. I always find that with the place. It's like, okay, maybe I want to say something, but if I actually say that at this moment in the play, everyone's going to stop listening. So maybe I'll hold off until, you know, they're about to leave before I say it. Well, you know, I just think like a lot, like existing in the world is a risk. And when we go see art, we're taking a risk and it's usually a magnificent one. But I am also fully open to like the risk of being offended. Yeah. You know? Like, because I trust myself that I can handle that. If you can't handle it, then maybe know that you go to an art that has, you know, assurance of certain things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's right. That's what people, somebody said for here that I should have a trigger alert. A trigger alert? In the play. Yeah, first thing I should have a trigger alert and I mean, my kind of, I'm like, I work in catharsis. It's, someone says it's a play. You should know trigger alert already. It's, I work, my job is catharsis. I'm like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do. I mean, I realize not everybody understands the rules of theater, but it's something is supposed to happen to you. Something's supposed to happen to you in that room. Yeah. Right, and I always talk about the yes and, right? So it's like, yes and things supposed to happen to you. And if you are feeling like, you can always ask, right? Like if I called the box office and said, hey, I'm really excited about this play because it's called an alternative pronoun or whatever reason I'm excited about the play. Can I know some more about the content or something like that? So instead of, I think there can be a balance where we teach advocacy, right? Versus, you know, make everything so I can handle it. Cause that's not real. Right. Like, that's not real. Like when I get on the subway every morning, do I know I can handle it? Absolutely not. I'm like, but, you know. But that doesn't mean the subway should be full of people who have a social etiquette that is oppressive. No, cause that's not real. Oh no, the social etiquette. No. Yeah, definitely. It would be great if that wasn't the case. Do we have it? Yes. Well, what did they want the trigger alert for? I think for, this person wasn't a returning vet, but they wanted it for returning vets. They were sensitive about returning vets. And I don't think this person knew a returning vet, but they were sensitive about them. So, you know, I hear that a little bit, but I also, I, you know, it's yes and I'm, I hear it, I absolutely hear it, and I think it's fucking bullshit. And you know, it's like, yes and I hear it and I absolutely believe it and I want to take care of somebody who's going to be in the audience and be traumatized by something that might happen. And I also want to make sure that we're not using hyperbole when we talk about trauma and that when someone says they're traumatized that it actually means that they are and that they're not just uncomfortable. And it's not for me necessarily to define what you are, but I also have seen trauma in my life and usually it consists of a person not being able to tell you that they're traumatized. Right. Yeah. That's real. And also like when you said that person who was saying they wanted a trigger or wanting for, you know, vets or whatnot. You know, I just lost my thought, but I'm sure it was brilliant. And no, I mean, they also are like, you know, a lot of times here in like therapy speak, they'll say trauma with a little T or trauma with a big T. I think there's all different size T's in between. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, yeah, but I'm down with that yes and. Yes and. Because I mean, I also think that like, there's something I say a lot in facilitation or groups or anything is that oftentimes like more information creates safer spaces. But like we like, we can invite that information, we're gonna tell that information. And also we also, a lot of times people make the assumption that like, if I was, if one is a child that witnessed a lot of abuse or violence, that seeing that mirrored is inherently like a bad experience. And sometimes it's a really validating experience to hear other stories or see it. So I think that just this assumption that like people react the same way to trauma like or to needing a trigger warming, like it's just not, it's not always that cut and arrow. No, I mean an ice cream could trigger you. Right. You know, I mean, yeah. Wax toys and tell her. It doesn't always have to be the theme. It doesn't have to be the direct theme. It could be any number of things could, so. Yeah. Bring out the ice cream. No, I like the ice cream. I forgot about my thing. I wanna open this up to questions from you guys in just a minute. Because I wanted to be like as one sort of question that I, the last question that I sort of wanted to ask you guys, especially as performers who are coming, you know, Taylor, Taylor, this is your first show I believe like on 42nd Street. You know, I guess my question, yeah, you know, my question is, if you were to change one thing or if you found one thing the most frustrating about the theater world, or what, or if there's a thing that you wish that the theater, that the theater community could do better than it does, what would you say is the most, and I've read some of your writings about this, but I wonder if there's one thing that sort of just jumps to mind. I guess this question's for both of you, like what do you kinda wish plays and theater, the theater community would do a little bit better than it does? I think there's two things. This is interesting. There's two things I feel, there's so many things. I, it's interesting. So our world that we come from doesn't have, it has a certain kind of rigor, but it is not the standardized rigor, it's not the standardized understanding of rigor. There's a certain craft to it, and the craft comes with growing up outside of the culture for whatever reason, and having to develop your own craft in order to survive and tell your story and feel empowered, right? So that kind of craft is really unique to, for lack of a better way of saying it, the downtown aesthetic, right? And the downtown world and the downhand way of making things and certainly queer performance. What they don't have a lot of because they haven't always been invited into the institutions learning facilities and mentorships and all of those types of things is they don't have a lot of the standard craft, right? So casting max, I'll just be a little honest, was hard, I mean, when we found Tom, then it was easy, but it was hard because this play was asking for a certain amount of method acting that the transgender community that is living in New York and working hasn't had access to. So what they have had access to was they all got to play Peter Pan in elementary school. No, I mean, seriously, so there was that, there's like this kind of wonderful presentational, my personality is forward, so they were all coming in and I was falling in love with every single person that came in and Nigel was too and we were both going, first off, I hate that we were having additions, but I also loved that I was meeting all these people and at some point Nigel turned to me and said, we should make something with all these actors. And I thought, yeah, because you have to write something very specific for them because they have a different craft. And so I guess that's something that I would like to see a little bit of the barriers being letting go. I think that that's gonna happen as transgender people get more power in the world and queer people become less marginalized. But I still think there's such a solid wall. I was at a talk years ago and an artistic director in town who we'll go nameless, said, who I love, but we'll go nameless, said we've got to create standards. We have to create these industry standards and I thought, who's standards? Who's standards are you talking about? Are you talking about these three people over here and then all these other people are left to try to mimic what you wanna do? So it was a really weird thing to hear in an environment of art. So that's something I feel like the theater community, theater community, the established theater uptown community could learn from downtown is that the standards are actually dragging you down into the quagmire of middle class. Right? So that's one thing. I mean, I guess the other thing is that I wish that our world, our downtown world had more rigor in it. And so I wish that people didn't feel like they had to protect, build themselves so much in order to protect themselves and find their place in the world and could actually engage in a different kind of rigor. And I mean, I think that the solution, right, is like, I mean, if we're looking for a solution, we might not be like, but just when I think about myself and when I like, you know, to use an I statement when I graduated from theater school, it was time to become a performer versus an actor because if I invested my time and money into continuing training as an actor, there was nothing to audition for. So it wasn't like, like, why? Like, why would I do that? You know, that's a, to me, a common sense thing. So, you know, while it's great to have the opportunity to play personified flowers, I definitely wouldn't love to be a human being ever so often. One day, we'll see, you know. And then, and wonder what it would look like to go through the training of doing that, right? Yeah. Thank you. I knew that was ambushing you with a big question. No, I mean, and we could talk about it for hours because I got some ideas. There was a hand that, your hand shot up the second I said questions from the audience. And we'd like to, we're actually taping this. So we'd love for you to ask a question through the mic and being a non-profit theater, we only have one mic. So I'm gonna have Dylan here run the mic to you. Is this right? Yes. I have a question for Mr. Mack, but first I would like to say that in my book club, if someone comes who has not finished the book, there's an implicit understanding that there will be spoilers given. And it just seems to me that if you have a symposium about a play, there should be an implicit understanding that there are gonna be details discussed and there could be spoilers. Not my question. Given that, based on one thing Taylor that you said about the play, and I've seen it, and you wrote it so you know the answer, but I can't understand how you could say that Paige the mother is not definitely seeking revenge on the father now that she's in a position to do so. Well, I think that history often trumps what is actually happening on a stage. So your understanding of family and history and abuse and revenge and how that is shaped through centuries and centuries of drama on a stage. That sometimes is very distracting and very hard to hear what's actually being said. So Paige, she talks about wanting to take Isaac to a new world, wanting to be done with this old world. Yes, that's true, but she's constantly talking about look at this new world we're making, look at this fabulous thing we've got, look at this wonderful thing, look at this. And she is inviting Isaac and really time and time and time again her dialogue is come with us, come with us, come with us. Look how fabulous it is. We don't have to do this anymore. We don't have to be abused anymore. We don't have to feel any of these things anymore. Come with us, come with us. And then at the end of the play, people still feel like what she was saying was don't come with us. Fuck that man, I'm gonna kill him, I hate him. This is all to punish him. And she never really, she mentions the father a couple times in the entire play. She is so intent on breaking free of that, I think. So it's interesting to me, it's certainly not a fault. It's certainly not, it's not a fault of the writer and it's not a fault of the audience that we, that happens but I think it's about history and the way stories are told and have been told that they can often be very distracting. So my job as a playwright is to go, okay, do I write it this way to help break that history, that assumption, or do I just write this and then hope that it sneaks in? And I always go back and forth on what to do but I feel like I've done enough for this play at this time. Yeah, I hope that helps anyways. Yeah. Hi, so earlier there was a brief conversation about trigger warnings and I'm hearing what you're saying about not wanting to censor your own experience but then I also hear what Glenn has to say about offering more information and I'm wondering what the counter argument is to that. More information. Or encouraging that people get more information. Encouraging people get more information, encouraging that people take responsibility for their experience. Their risk taking. Their risk taking for the day, you know. Just in the same way that you would, if you were coming here to 42nd Street and you didn't know where it was exactly, you might go online and look up, where is this place? How's the best way to get there? How am I going to be the least traumatized in getting there, you know? So I think that that is, if you want to do the digging, I think that we, institutions, artists, people who are doing it should be able to give you the information that you can do the digging but I don't think we should make that information easily available in terms of, you just go to the website and there it is. I think you should have to Google it. You should have to look for it. You should have to say, you should have to call up the theater and ask, you know. Look, these are the things that I don't want to see right now, is does this play contain any of that? You know, those kind of things because if we give you the information, then that stops other people from being able to decide whether or not it's triggering because a lot of people might not find this play triggering at all. And if they walk into the space, what we're trying to do in the first five minutes is get the audience to laugh. We're trying to give them permission to laugh because it's a heavy play and we want them in it. We want them to express the full range of their humanity in the room with us because there are lots of different forms of catharsis. And so, we're trying to get the audience to laugh and if we say trigger alert, this could possibly be traumatizing for some people then they come in there and they're like, no one's gonna laugh no matter what we do. If we put that clown set at stage and the curtain parts, they still are not gonna laugh. You know, so we have to work it. Yeah. Ibsen didn't give like a trigger alert to say, I think you might get upset when the door slams. Like all the great works are really, I mean not all of them are things that upset people. But you seem like you might have something you want to say about that. No, I mean I think it's a yes, you know it's very much a yes and because I also, I can say like I am super jazzed when someone puts on their postcard like details about you know this theater's up a flight of stairs or that you know, different things. Like I think that's awesome, right? You know, so like yes, I want to live in a world that provides that information. And I think that the other side of that is, I don't know, I can't, I mean I personally can't imagine a world because I haven't lived in one where especially in uptown theaters I can fit my ass in comfortably to the seats, right? So I've, but I want to go to the theater. So I learned you know to either, my options are don't go to the theater or figure out how to sit at the theater, right? I'm just trying to sit here and imagine to myself what would it be like if it told me my options? I don't know, maybe that'd be fab, you know? But I've just never lived in that world, you know? And I think it's accessibility is different than content but for some people it's not, you know? And I think that I would encourage people to, if they felt that it like added to their theatrical experience and aligned with their politics create spaces that offer all of the information. And if not, then know that people who have a hard time existing in the world might not come to the show. We get to decide. It's also that thing of, I mean I find what's interesting is that it's certainly the audience is much more playwrights horizons audience than my audience that usually comes to my work. And that 100% has to do with, I'm gonna say 100% but primarily about ticket price, you know? And it doesn't matter if you're like but you could get it for this price. You could get it at this discount, this discount, this discount, you know? And actually it's actually ultimately it would be cheaper than going to see me at Joe's Pub because you have to buy the ticket and the two drink minimum. So you know you're gonna, but psychologically it shuts them down. And so I'm always calling them on their bullshit when they're like, you know that Lincoln Center concert was $80 and I'm like we just did two free Lincoln Center concerts, shut up. Like it's okay, you know? But people are always mad at me. And- The queers. The queers are always mad, they're always mad. As they should be, I'm so happy they're mad all the time. And then yes, right? So, but what I find interesting about the is that it's content, why did you say content is sometimes different from access, but not often. And so people even, they feel like they don't have access and so then they shut down to the content. And I think that's forgiving, right? If people have to, you know, like, you know, often in theater they'll be like why aren't these type of people here? Why are the only people here in this demographic? Maybe it's like, you know, maybe the risk of participating is too much. And you know, and that, to me that makes sense with like a variety of different marginalized identities. It's exhausting oppression, I'll tell you. It's exhausting, and you don't necessarily wanna go to the theater to not know what bathroom you're gonna have to use. Right. I mean, so much easier to just stay home and use your own. I'm first, you know, and sometimes that's the case. And sometimes it's not the case. And like, I think alongside encouraging people to, you know, I think the encouragement of trigger warnings is one thing, but like why can't the encouragement of like advocacy be another? Like, because how many times does it take for someone to call and say, do you have a gender-neutral bathroom? So maybe one day I'm in a gender-neutral bathroom. Who else? You know? So, again, with the yes and. Always. Taylor Mack, hi. I think an unsophisticated viewer of the play might say, this guy so messed up his daughter that she hates men, doesn't wanna be a woman, doesn't even wanna have a gender. But I think the way you intend it is probably more, this is a character who happens to be transgender and has this father, does that fit? Absolutely. Yeah, and so then my bigger question is, I mean, this is clearly a real male patriarchal kind of abusive father. What do you think would be the nuances of what that does to the head of a transgender person? And we sort of saw what it did to the veteran brother and stuff, it just turned him really macho and he went in that direction. Any thoughts about, I asked this already, just go ahead. Yeah. First of all I would say it's probably different for every single transgender person who's under that circumstance. Right? So I don't know what, I can't speak for all of them or any of them really. So I know that for me as a queer kid and borderline genderqueer, I think that it made me retreat into myself more and my studies, my own personal studies and my imagination more, I think. And it made me seek out people who were like me more. So that's, I could say that for me. I think for Max, I have made decisions for Max and I think that's true of Max as well. I think there was a lot of like, I too have a complex relationship to masculinity and there was something about that that was like really acknowledged in the play that was really nice to see. Just, it wasn't like the driving point necessarily but that, I mean even less having nothing to do with the representation of abusive father, masculinity in the house, I think that like particularly around transition and identifying as transgender, there's still a lot of rules out there of how to be a man and how to be a woman. And so I think that that's stressful already. Like, yeah, for not just transgender people but for all people. Yeah. Yeah. It's the long microphone pass. I was very intrigued with what you said, Mr. Mack, about the theatrical institutions uptown maybe becoming a little looser and performers downtown having a little more rigor. I think it's happening actually. Are there specific things from your experience? Well, I see that in my theater going but in your experience just here with this current play, have you, do you have specific ideas about how more that can be done to bring that about? I mean, I think they're doing a pretty good job. I mean, they brought me and they brought booty candy and they brought, you know what I mean? They brought Iowa. I mean, I think they're doing a really good job at that here actually. They have two proscenium stages so there's only so much they can do, you know? I mean, you know what I mean? It's always gonna kind of be within the realm of a fourth wall audience, their performer here, never the twain shall meet, except for, you know, ever so much. And because that's the circumstance of the building. But I think they're really, I think, I mean, it's why I wrote this play for this theater and it's why I wanted to work here above all the other theaters in town is because I do feel like they are the closest to bridging that divide of any other theater in town so I really respect that about what they're doing here. If I go like that, would you answer the question the same? No, I mean, to be fair, I don't want to exclude other people. I think the public is also doing a really good job with that. The GOB Squad right now is a performance art piece that is on their main stage. They have their under the radar festival. You know, I mean, I feel, when I was acting in a play there, it was Fun Home Downstairs. I was in a break play upstairs. Wally-Sean was doing his play downstairs. The Apple Family was, you know, so all these very different works were all happening at the same time. So I end just pub is there. So I mean, I do think that people are bridging the gap but in terms of theaters that are above 14th Street, I think this is the one. For two more questions, you're making on a mic letter. If I remember the lines correctly, I think you have toward the end of the play Paige comments that if only I had gone to the museum, that things might have ended differently. Do you think as the playwright that that is true, that that was a tragic mistake that they could have- I think it's true for Paige. I think that I think she believes wholeheartedly in what is going to save her and her family. And part of her tragedy is that she can't see that someone isn't necessarily like her and doesn't need the same thing she needs in order to heal. And part of Isaac's tragedy is the same thing, actually, that he cannot see that actually that things are better just because the house is a disaster. It doesn't mean it's not better. That actually is so much better. And that postmodern isn't necessarily worse. I say there used to be a line in the play where she says, look, the house is a disaster and there's holes all over everything and everything's broken up. And she said to Isaac, look, Isaac, we're postmodern. I cut it. Yeah. Continuing the conversation of art as therapy, is there something that you, Taylor, you have come away with after this experience of writing this play? I always say, you probably heard me say this on stage before, but I always say, why should I pay a therapist when I can have people pay me to do my therapy? So, clearly we've learned it's not art therapy, but it's not even really drama therapy, but yes, I mean, I'm a little tongue-in-cheek when I say that, but I think it's also true that when I write a play, I say, what about me don't I want the audience to know? And then I say, okay, that's what the play is gonna be about. And then the other thing I often do, we'll do is say, what am I ignoring in my life and in the society and the culture around me? What am I ignoring? And then I try to make the play about that. So that's certainly what, I use both of those techniques for here. I won't tell you more about it, I'll let you come see it, but in hopes that if I expose something that I don't want the audience to know about me, I'm most likely gonna connect to at least a few people in the audience that are also experiencing something like that or that can apply it as a metaphor to their lives. And if I focus on something that I'm ignoring, then most likely the people that live in my neighborhood or in my community or in my city are experiencing something similar. They're also maybe ignoring that thing. That's my hope. There's just a way, it's a very clear demonstration of us all acknowledging as people that it's super hard to cope with those aspects of ourselves and our communities and worlds. And you call it a sublimation, right? Like you figured out a way to explore those. It helps you live better in the world, right? And I think that it's amazing when art can come from that and art can do that for you and then turn, do something for an audience. Everyone wins. Everyone wins, everyone wins. Yeah, I mean the video, I stole the story the other day too, but I think it's worth it. This woman at the end of the show, she came up to me and she was in her 80s and it was second preview and she said to me, so there's no hope? Wow. And I said something snarky back to her because I was in that vulnerable second preview place where I said, well, thank you for sharing that. But afterwards I thought, I wish I had been with it enough to say, well clearly there is hope because you are inspired enough to fight me on the idea that there might not be hope. Clearly the play has done its job. It has inspired you to want to find hope. That's what, I mean one of the things that I say in art anger, like my work comes from a strength based approach, right? So when I think about anger, and this is kind of connects to that story is that if we didn't care, we wouldn't get angry. You know, like it's an inherent sense of value when we get angry or we have a, you know, reaction that creates that art. So yeah, the hope, strength based. Strength based. Yeah. Well somebody left the other day, they put in the progress reports or the stage management reports. They always say overheard. Ooh, that's, and so I read them all the time. And sometimes they're very nice things like, wonderful. Oh, those actors are so good. Oh, what a great experience. We're so happy we came. But then they also put the ones in that are like, some woman left and she was off. Well, some people like that. Oh my God, why would they do that? I love it. Oh my God. She took a rest. She took a rest. Well I wanted to say thank you all so much for joining us today and thanks to Taylor and to Glenn for joining us. This plywood that we're standing on right now, actually in three weeks time, will be a set for our next show, Marjorie Prime. So I hope you'll join us for that. And thank you all so much for spending your night with us. I gotta get my jacket on. It's cold.