 Good afternoon. Good evening for the last time this season. Dear Rob, my name is Karishma Pagani. Thank you all for joining us for episode 12, the last episode in our season of the stories women carry. For those of you that have been consistent followers, you know the drill, we're going to have an hour of fun with our panelists today and engage them in conversation. For those of you that are joining for the first time today, this series essentially came about as we were reflecting about how to archive practices of creative practices of women across the continent in Africa. And for this second season, we really thought about how to include the diaspora in in these conversations. And so this is this is what we'll be talking about today. I'd like to thank the HowlRound Theatre Commons for being wonderful, wonderful presenters and producers of this series, and for renewing it and for their constant support. I'd like to thank the Tiberias Foundation and the Nairobi Musical Theatre Initiative for also for producers and presenters of the series. So yeah, they wouldn't have been possible without everybody's support. We're going to jump right in today to introduce our panelists actually. It's very, very exciting conversation and lost to London. Kathy, hi, how are you doing? Oh, I think you're on mute. Good morning. Good afternoon. I'm doing fine. I'm here in Durham, North Carolina. Thank you so much for joining us today. We really, really appreciate you taking the time out of your schedule to chat with us about your career and your journey and about Africa and the arts and the global landscape. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. So, so why don't we dive in? I mean, just to share, I usually like to share a little personal anecdote. So Kathy and I haven't ever really met in person. It's the joys of the pandemic, actually, some of the good things that came out of the pandemic is that we could connect more, well, much more over Zoom. And so Kathy and I met last year through a virtual reading that we was hosted by the Taberat Foundation of Tropical Fish. We had to talk immediately and had really, really wonderful conversations about how to collaborate on future projects. And you've been a constant source of inspiration for me as I've been doing my research. So thank you so much for being a resource and for being so available and welcome to, you know, welcoming me to talk with you over the last few, well, over the last year that we've known each other. Right. Right. Thank you for what you're doing with the festivals and introducing me to a lot of, you know, young up and coming writers. So that's, that's been one of the good things about this. So, yeah. And looking forward to seeing you here in the States. Fingers crossed, yes, hopefully soon as the borders open up and visas are more available. I hope to be back across the pond in the coming months. And since you did mention young people, why don't we start off with you telling us a little bit about your career journey? I mean, how did you get into the arts? How did you, yeah, tell us a little bit about yourself and your interest in you and how you got into the arts? Well, I grew up in Mobile, Alabama. I grew up doing a civil rights movement. So it's a long time ago. And I've always been interested in the arts. I mean, through church, through community organizations, through, you know, school, you know, junior high, high school. And so, you know, I would mainly acting, acting and singing. I used to sing with a little group and stuff like that. And so by the time I was ready to go to college, I just knew, you know, I was going to go into theater, you know, there was, you know, that was, there was no other option. That's what I really wanted to do. I was very passionate about the arts. And so I went to Howard University, which is an HBCU in Washington, DC, which I had an interest in. I'm going to interrupt you and ask if you could just clarify what an HBCU is. Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, sorry. HBCU stands for Historically Black College University. Okay, we refer to them as HBCUs and Howard is one of the major HBCUs in the country. It's in Washington, DC. It's where our vice president is from Kamala Harris, you know, vice president Kamala Harris. So, yeah, I went there a fantastic theater program and during my freshman year, which is two of a lot of theater programs, you have to work on, you know, you have to do a course that's called practicum of some sort, which means you get to work in every aspect of theater backstage, you know, everything. And so I was doing stage crew. I was stage crew and lighting crew for this play by Alice Childress called Wine in the Wilderness and a friend of mine who was a sophomore with still good friends. He was in communications lighting and we're just sitting backstage and out of the blue he says and this is 1973. He says, what are you going to do with a BFA in acting and I was sort of offended and I said, what do you expect I'm going to go to Broadway, you know. And so he says, you know, there are no roles for black women on Broadway, you know, you don't need to play a Mammy or prostitute or whatever and, and he said I've seen you hanging lights and focus and why don't you consider, you know, lighting, you know, we had a touring house on on campus which is your tri-actual theater building. And he said, you know, there's a lot of work going over there and we could always use people and why don't you think about it so. After I got over my boost ego, I took him up on his offer and then I started working there and you know the rest is history he just sold me on it. And then I had advisors at the touring house as well as in my department who extremely supported of me going into lighting. And it wasn't where there were several black women in my department that were doing lighting so it didn't seem any it didn't seem unusual to me. But it was after I left Howard and went on to grad school that I was advised that, you know, black women in lighting was was very, very rare. And these are the things that I would expect once I get out there and start working the, you know, discrimination racism sexism you name it all the racism I would encounter, which was true. So I love Howard I went to University of Michigan to get my MFA in lighting and after finishing there I went straight to New York I had a job in New York City with the dance company. I was there for six months and then another job came up. I lived in New York for like five months. And so, and I worked in New York I came back from working New York and then I started teaching, but I've always been designing. I've always, I've never stopped designing lighting. And it really, really interesting to hear you speak about your transition from your BFA in acting to a technical or production related career. Here, what your thoughts are on on the landscape for women of color, or for folks of color that are looking to get into technical work now. Would you say it's changed and become more accommodating and accessible for folks of color. I think since the George Floyd incident. Things are opening up more. And I go to US it US it stands for the United States Institute for theater technology and I've been a member for about 30 years. And one of the things that I'm in US it is basically universities colleges, some professional theater companies, businesses, you know be a lighting sound costume or whatever. And so one of the things that I've been advocating if you know since I've been going is that people admit you know recruit more students of color, you know. I shouldn't just have to be me because I was at University of Illinois for 22 years where I ran the lighting program. And so, because I was there I made sure I had students of color, not just from the US but from all over the world I had students from Africa had students from from Korea, China, you know you name it South America, whatever I made sure was an extremely diverse program. And so one of the things I did I encourage many of my colleagues to do the same some of them took me up on it. And so that is helped. And use when I go to somebody HBC use I encourage the departments like you know we have to develop more people behind the scenes. So yeah, and then I also try and encourage some theater companies to you know with your internship here people you can use your schools you can go to. So I think the numbers have the numbers have definitely grown. You know, you would definitely seeing a larger pool of particularly blacks. And I just think, well, and I hate to turn BIPOC I'm sorry I just use global majority, global majority students across the board. I have a black Facebook page is called black stage designers, and which I've had for about 12 years and it's really grown. And I'm just looking at the number of young blacks who are getting degrees and the whole point of the Facebook page was to mentor nurture and, you know, it's also professional so I have you know it's a range of people you know people were in undergrad grad school, who have been working, you know, on Broadway, whatever in film and stuff like that, mainly theater. So it's a way for us to network it's a way for people to encourage other people will look at portfolios. Now that there are a couple of students who are just finishing up their MFA's and they're saying oh, here's my portfolio review, can you sign up to give me feedback. And it's just for people to see what shows are going on, you know, I have a show going on and I encourage people if you're working on a project if it's someone in your area, you know how that young person come in and see you hanging focus or going to costume shop. So I know that was a long answer. The numbers are growing, you know, particularly compared to when I was coming out of school. I mean it's really inspiring to hear your approach towards this as well, because last week we had the doctor and do know on in conversation on this panel, and she's she was talking about her work with create ensemble in the craft Institute. One of the things she mentioned was creating this platform online, similar to your Facebook group but she sort of created it on her own website for young professionals to be able to seek mentorship, but then also to create platforms to market themselves and market their service and their work across the performing arts but various other disciplines as well so just really interesting to see how there are various movements that are various connections and networking opportunities that have sort of presented themselves now for young professionals of color across the US and around the world actually right. I was an education apprentice at the roundabout theater company in 2019 and one of the most inspiring programs that came out of there that I was fascinated with was a theatrical workforce development program where technical theater practitioners are given two to three years of a fellowship to hone their craft and then actually be able to work within New York City you know theater performances and shows and so yeah it's really it's really wonderful to see programs like this coming up. I actually want to pivot back to one of the things that you mentioned about the classes that you taught that had, you know, diversity and the global majority, you know, be a part of the student population that you taught. What was that experience like for you as a teacher? How did you navigate the differences? How did you craft a syllabus that was universally accessible to students coming from what I assume are different walks of life and different cultural experiences as well. Right. Okay, let me go. Okay, it's two different things. The students that I would say that I brought from all over the world. These were students that came into the MFA lighting program. These were specifically students, you know, and it's really interesting because when I got to Illinois in 89 the MFA lighting program had been dormant and so they had called me to come and reinstate the program and I've been at Smith College for six years teaching and I left for five years and I just said I'm done with academia and when they call me about it, I said no and then if I thought about it I said, Wow, if I go if I go and one this program I decide who comes into the program. And I knew there was a paucity of people of color in these graduate programs so that gave me an opportunity to bring in, you know, like I said young people from all over the world. So I usually had about six grad students at one time. And not only did I just bring in lighting people but I made sure there were people coming in costume and scene design, stage management and acting, you know, it's like we can partner with a certain number of HBCUs what we did we partnered with Howard Spelman Morehouse, North Carolina A&T and one or two other schools to make sure we had, you know, black students coming in. And I didn't have a problem with students coming from Asia because there was always tons and tons of applications. But the students that I brought from Africa these were usually students that I met while I was over there. And they, you know, they didn't have the portfolio, like the students here because they don't have the resources to have vector works in AutoCAD and all that stuff, but they came and they were amazing students. I did teach a course on non-western theater, and that was pretty much for grad students or upper undergrads. And that was one of my most rewarding courses because we looked at theater primarily from places that I had been that I traveled to. So I was always speaking from my experiences. Like we did a whole section, maybe one semester we did a whole section just on Japanese theater. At the time I hadn't gone to Japan, but when I was in LA, I worked four years for the Japan American Theater Center. And, and, you know, it was just a mind blowing experience because back in the 80s, you know, Japan was like the powerhouse in terms of capitalism. And so every major company from Japan, Boon Raku, you know, everything was coming from there. No drama. So I had access exposure to all this. And so I was able to teach that in different places in Africa that I'd gone to, you know, I could teach South African theater. I'd been to the Caribbean. I could talk about carnival. And so I was bringing in, you know, real, you know, experiences that I had, you know, so I could have video footage of certain events, not something we saw on, you know, PBS or whatever. Like, you know, this was my experience. Here's the artist. And the other beautiful thing was that Seattle's on Zoom or Skype wait before the pandemic. I would say about 12 years ago, I was Skyping in people, you know, you know, here's an artist from Ghana, you know, here's an artist from, from Egypt or whatever they're going to join us for class today and that was always exciting for the student for them to actually see that. I would love to learn more about your travels across the continent. How did you become interested in African art and theater making and what did your travels I know it's a big question what are some of your experiences from your travels. And what does that feel to you about the arts on the continent. Okay, let me go back. Let me go way way back. African theater was really never on my radar. It was when I was in New York right out of grad school with 1978 I lived with my sister we lived in New Jersey she was working in New Jersey, and I was working in New York, and this is 78. And this was still doing the height of apartheid. And so she had some students at her university from South Africa, they were exiled journalists and writers and so she would have them over for dinner. And, you know, I would meet them and they started talking about that they were doing theater in the city in Brooklyn and they were all over, all over the place. And so I started working with them. And it was just an amazing time for me because they were causing we need some lighting and we don't have any money can you come and light our show and you know I would work with them in between my other jobs. And even when I went to Smith College, I was, you know, the whole time I was on the East Coast in the 80s, I would do shows with them. But what what really dawned on me at the time because at that point I was beginning my research, mainly on black women playwrights and stuff like that and I noticed every show that I worked on and again these are basically basically South African pieces. I would go buy a man about men, everything was done by the men. You know I was usually the only woman working on the, on this, you know, on the production team and you know that sort of struck me I'd be watching me show this like, don't women have something to say about, you know, there are no theater women or whatever. And then when I went to the move to the West Coast in the late in the mid 80s. I continued to keep up my interest in Africa, you know, because it was part I was interested in what was going on with Mandela. And so, and I guess in 1995 this is much years much later, well 94 Mandela became president. In 1995, I was on leave it was just really weird. I was on leave in 9495 working on a project. And I had accrued all these frequent flyer miles from American Airlines. And, and I was just sitting there saying to myself, I got all these miles. I want to go somewhere I don't know I need to go someplace far. So one of these people I always get signs that this is what you need. This is what is supposed to happen. So one day I opened in New York Times magazine, the New York Times paper, the travel section. There's this huge two page ad that says South Africa is waiting for you. And American Airlines had teamed up with South Africa, because South Africa was, you know, was coming back to the US. And they were trying to get people from the US to travel to South Africa. So they had this amazing deal where with virtually little to no frequent flyer miles. I could fly to South Africa business class. But yes, but I had to book my ticket. I wish that was a reality now. But I think the airline marketing strategy is too mild and you can. It's like, it was like really I can fly business class I'd never phone business class in my life and it's like, but you have to book within two, within two weeks and you know either the Johannesburg or Cape Town. And I just booked a ticket. I had no idea where I was going I didn't know anybody in South Africa, but I'd never been to the content I said, This is supposed to happen. I just booked a ticket, and I just started telling people, oh yeah I'm going to South Africa in June. And, and then things just fell into place is like, Oh so and so one of your colleagues the full bright. She's in Johannesburg you have a place to stay Oh someone used to teach with me is in Cape in Durban. And so I just ended up, you know, by the time I got to South Africa, I had places to stay. And then a friend who knew somebody through the State Department arranged me to go to all these different places around South Africa and do workshops do lighting workshops talk about theater in America. And again you have to realize during this time the world had been shut off from South Africa and shut off on the world so they didn't really know what was happening around the world, particularly in America, you know they would hear things. TV was still new in South Africa for a long time it was banned. So we talked about 1995 very few people had television so they didn't really know what was going on. And so that was wonderful so I was there for like three, three weeks that time and during the time I was there. The very first night I was there someone told me that I had to go to this women's bar called kippies it doesn't exist anymore. Why have you heard of kippies you're smiling. No, I just the concept itself is fascinating. Oh, it was yeah it was I mean the third Wednesday of each month. And so of course I arrived in the town, the Wednesday of that that third Wednesday and so people said you have to go it's like, I just had a 16 hour flight or 12 hour flight is like I'm tired, no, you must go. So it was amazing and so you know women were talking about the issues post apartheid and we talked about women writers and I was discovering that it was difficult for South African women to get their works published so so that was that was a very exciting time. I got to see a lot of theater was it was a whirlwind trip. And then I came back the following year I was asked to come back the following year. Well the first time I went over I did not go over with the intentions of I'm going to do a collection of plays by South African women. I just went over because I'd never gone to Africa. I just read so much about South African I say well this will be the place to start. Plus they speak English. So I went back the next year I was invited to come back, because they just appointed a black South African as artistic director of one of the theaters because at the time in South Africa all the theaters were run by the state. It was a very well funded theater state of the art everything. So they assigned this guy to the smaller of the state theaters in Johannesburg. And when it was discovered that a black man would be in charge, all the staff left the staff is white. And again we're talking about at this time. There was no training for blacks in technical theater or anything behind the stage. So they had no staff so what they did they said oh since you do lighting would you be willing to come back. Next summer and teach lighting to you know these young people teach stage management which is not my area but I could teach basic stage management, and do some sound and then we'll do a big show at the end of the summer. So I went back to that and while I was there those three months it gave me an opportunity to meet a lot of women playwrights a lot of women writers. And the idea came about, oh, why don't I do a collection of plays about South by South African women. It wasn't all women some of the writers were men because they wrote, I felt some incredible plays about South African women. So that's where this that started so I began to work on the collection of play. My first summer and then I went back the next summer, and the book came out 99 so I worked on it for like four years. And of course, it goes by no surprise that the anthology African women playwrights as well. You know is one that you collected so I'd love to hear how how that came about as well. Okay that one took about 10th wait from 95. That came out in 2009, I think. Yeah, 2009. What sparked the decision to come up with this or compile a second anthology that covered the continent. And was it related at all to your experience in South Africa. It was related to my experiences in South Africa because once I started going to South Africa. It's really strange how things we just start snowballing. You're in South Africa. Oh, I have a friend in Zimbabwe. Why don't you come to Zimbabwe so while I'm there I'm looking at the women in theater and it's, you know, there's the Zimbabwe women's Writers Association which I'm sure you're aware of. So, you know, they were talking about the difficulty of getting plays for both published it's just publication is a big issue. And then, you know, then I ended up going to Uganda because I had a friend who was staying there she was on a full bright like oh come to Uganda and you're like and you need to meet so and so. And I just began to see that it was a real problem and that's when I make ready in 97 98. And she talked about that issue and I was so impressed with gritty gritty. Chomo Monday, I always school for last name. Because it started this group called them right in Uganda, and it was like one of the first women's publishing organization on the continent I'm pretty sure they were the first one because they inspired so many women. And she was saying because we can't get our works published we have to do this ourselves they got in this huge grant. And so that sort of sparked my interest in. So why I put together a collection of plays by women across the continent. One because there wasn't, there wasn't anthology available I was shocked it's like, there's no collection of plays on African women. And I also wanted to teach these in my class so you know I would get a play from this person and a play from this play right. You know, there was never one collection. And so that's what I that's that's yeah I started doing and then I just started going to other parts of Africa. Anglophone speaking countries because I don't speak anything else. Right well I think you just in sharing the transition or the move move from the South African women playwrights anthology to the African women playwrights. There are two issues that I think continue to plague us and trouble us as a continent right one in terms of visibility. One is this sort of vast difference of language where I'm the phone speaking countries generally have a separate sort of world in which they function the francophone speaking countries and mean our region which is oftentimes not even considered part of the continent sometimes just creates this really big riff just amongst us as people on the continent let alone, you know in a global landscape. And then, and so you brought up really interestingly that the question of language and the disparity of language and what that means in terms of accessibility, and also how anglophone speaking and francophone speaking countries so continue to maintain this sort of near colonial relationship with, with their former colonizers, the language that is spoken right, what can be set off our traditional languages and ethnic, you know, traditions storytelling in those worlds. And how can that be presented on the global landscape. Of course the other thing that you brought up is this idea that publishing and written work is still so is much more considered much more of archival form of tradition then oral storytelling is for example, which I think largely you know we focus on on the continent. One of our previous guests she behers to a spot of our first season, really interestingly, in one of my conversations with her had said that the things that I remembered the place that I remembered about from Kenya, at the ones that were published, nothing else and yet in the 20s there was so much work coming out of the region, but because it didn't necessarily have that kind of platform. It didn't really, you know, take flight in the same way that the works like betrayal in the city, for example, did, or you got, for example. This is more of a philosophical question for you that be curious to hear given your experience on the continent and given your experience in teaching in the US across, you know, various different universities and different courses. What would you say is the next step for young and emerging and established playwrights on the continent, for example, an artist actually were interested in in having their work seen by a global audience. But you know what, and again I hate to keep saying this you know there've been some good things that have come out of the pandemic and because of the pandemic. Like I said, I connected with a lot of different African women writers. They've had a larger platform because we're on zoom, you know, I got to see something well one you're reading. Yeah, Doreen Doreen's piece I wouldn't have been able to see that had it not been for you. Doreen is this amazing writer from Uganda and I met her when I was in Uganda in 2018 a friend of mine and we've been friends of mine gave me a copy of her book. She just read her stories like they should be stage, you know, they should really be stage. And then I can't remember how we connected if it was through Doreen or whatever that she said oh, you know, you know, they're going to do one of my short stories for the stage and, in fact, I'm publishing one of Doreen stories adapted for this new book I have that's coming out. So I think the internet is going to be one way festivals, I mean, one of the ways that I have promoted the work of African women one through publishing but that's just not enough. But by trying to have festivals in 2010 whenever that the University of Illinois, I had a festival, it was called you know African women writers. It wasn't just playwrights but it was women writers across the board. And it was wonderful because I was able to bring African women from across the continent would never met each other and and I never thought about that one of the things they were so grateful for. They were saying it's so rare that you have a large number of African women coming together in the US outside of the US, you know, at someone else's experience. I think it's amazing that you get to meet issues like we'll bring one or two people or something like that. And so that was very rewarding was like all eight day event, and then in 2016 when I came to University North Carolina Chapel Hill. I did a much larger festival, but this was women from Africa in the diaspora. So that was one way of introducing their world. One of the other things I tried to do is more I was more successful in 2010 and 2016. When I bring these women to the continent to the US, I try and make sure they can go elsewhere, you know, this is the long ways to come for like four or five days. And make sure the festival continued in Chicago, a colleague of mine, Sandy Richard who does African theaters well, she worked it out where we could bring them to Northwestern. And then there was Columbia College, you know, some of the women went there, and then I have a sister who teaches out in California, a women's studies program. And some of the women are one of the women with the dark months somebody went to New York. So it's about, you know, creating these networks, you know, the biggest expense is getting them here and getting the pieces and stuff. But once they're here is like, Oh, it's only $300 to fly them okay I can, you know, bring them and you know, pay them and put them up. I have to create these networks and things. And the other thing that I try and do if there is an artist in the country. And that's, that's the disadvantage of not being an academic anymore I don't have access to the funding. If there's an artist in the country, I will bring them. You probably know a Don Judith from Uganda, a student of mine was working with her at the National Black Theater in New York and she said, Oh my God there's this amazing playwright that you should meet. And so we connected and I we read one of her plays, it was called God. And I had a very diverse class with my class on African women in theater, an extremely diverse classes like 18 kids it was like, you know, Asian Americans, I had some African students in there with African American white you name it was and I say okay we're going to read this play. It was a comedy, and it was something they could relate to and I said we're going to all be Ugandan for the next two weeks, and they loved it and they learned a lot about Uganda because I remember one student says well where's Uganda how do you spell it. So by the end this, this young person had, you know, it read so much about you don't and we brought Judith to, to be with us like a student of mine, a former student came into direct the students. So they had a professional director work with them, and then Judith came for like the last four days and work with the students, you know, sharing the culture, you know, this is how you pronounce this word. This is what this movement, and it was such a, it was a wonderful experience and we did a public reading of it. So, so those are ways. And like I said I bring people to campus like I brought CC being a remember she was at Michigan so it's like oh she's in the country like oh okay well we'll bring it to Illinois. So we have to create that network. And again, you know just so commendable and so forward thinking of you to be Skype people in 1012 years ago even in your classes to be able to bridge, you know the continents together and really expose students and expose young people to the plethora of work that is present. You brought up something really interesting. When you talked about your African women writers festival that it was not just playwrights. Could you speak a little bit more about that decision why why wasn't it specifically playwrights. What is that you know you have anything to say about the nature of the work that you've seen across the continent and it's relevant to what we would consider traditional theater across the globe. Right I'm sorry I'm looking at the poster. Most of the women were in theater, and I use writers because and that's really interesting. I've done away with the word playwrights when I'm dealing with women outside of, you know, Western traditions and right right now I have a book that's anthology that's coming out it's it's around the theme of home and home can be anything you want it to be or whatever. And so I started, I wanted to the first site I called it. International plays by what buying about women, and then I realized a lot of these in certain countries women don't write plays in the in the Western sense. And so I said I'm just going to call them performance pieces. Okay, because it's always been, it's been difficult for me to when I start saying playwrights. I have a difficult time finding people. But then when I say storytellers, who can can perform their pieces then I get people coming out of the woodwork. So I've done away with the term playwright, because just to give you an example, years and years ago I did a collection of plays that I coordinated with a friend. There was called contemporary plays by women of color. And we had native American women, or indigenous women writing, and they don't write plays in the Western tradition, because you know they were like driving me crazy and now I apologize to them like five years You know that was like 25 years ago why are you even worried about this like, and I said you know I was forcing you to write in a way that you're not accustomed to that's not how you present your work, because I was saying well I need to full text I need stage direction. Well I only have my version of the script, you know I only need to know my line and she asked like we got to put it all together into one play. So I realized I was forcing them to do something that they, you know they don't operate that way. So this new text coming out I just got rid of the word of playwright, because that would be coming a problem for Doreen because I was stressing Doreen out she said, I need to put stage direction, I need to have a climax and I need to have this high. I said no let's just, just do it as a story. And then I have these women from India who will African descent. You know their story tellers and it's like I'm thinking I'm trying to make them be playwrights that's not what they are their playmakers. So, that's what I what that's what I've been doing and so when I said writers I consciously said writer. Because some of these women were not traditional playwrights, you probably know hope is Zeta from Wanda. I don't think she calls herself a playwright I think she calls herself a playmaker, but she's a writer. And there was some other people I brought in. I'm a Dean of the humble. She's not a plate. Well, she does, you know, she's a writer. So I wanted her to come but most of the women were, they were tied to theater, they were basically in the theater. Right, I didn't want to say playwrights. Right, just in that own sense of its word what I hear you saying that is that it's quite restrictive, even in terms of restrictive. Yeah. One of our previous panelists from our first season as well a layer has a really interesting way of saying the idea that the novel, the idea of the novel coming to the African continent was a form of colonization because it restricted us to thinking about storytelling is a one track beginning middle and This is not how we tell stories. And it's also a very broad generalization to say as Africans, this is how we don't tell stories because everybody has their own method of communication, you know, one, whether it's through oral practice or through song and dance. And you know what this is one of the things that comes up for us at the musical theater initiative a lot right because we're talking about musical theater as a form of the way that it exists on the continent is a completely different. You know, has a completely different dramaturgical evolution to it right and definitely not the same thing as what we would imagine traditional American musical theater to look like in this context. Right. So when I, when I do the anthologies I have to, you know, I have to stop thinking, you know, in like the Western way of, you know, this is the only way you can do it and I have to be more open. So that's, that's what I've been doing. And that way I've been getting more works from people. I started saying players like well we don't really have any playwrights we have some theater people or storytellers who perform like okay. Also with the pandemic at this moment the idea of also theater existing, you know, in its own form, in the same way that it did before the pandemic is, it's hard to imagine because the influence of technology the influence of zoom. All of these factors are going to play such a big role in shifting and crafting what the genre is going to look like because all of a sudden it and filled in this murky territory together. And one of our previous panelists as well said how she thinks that zoom plays are going to become a whole genre and there's going to be a whole course that's going to be taught about how to direct and have a right zoom plays, you know, to be able to bring people from around the world to participate in the same way. And I think that's good because one of the other things I've been thinking about was, you know, if I can get a grant from somebody somebody out there listening who has the million dollars, can I have half of it. We have million dollar people listening to this conversation. Oh, well, can I get a million or two. But I would love to do, you know, an online thing, mainly, you know, small pieces, one and two character pieces. But you know I never want to give up live theater there's nothing can replace live theater, but at least people would have access to a platform. I would love to do that as a way of introducing. I mean, there may be something out there already I don't know it's so much going on right now. Yeah, it'd be great. I mean, may I recommend for our audience and this that are tuned in today and also for you. You haven't heard of theater for one already. Theater theater for one might be an interesting thing for y'all to check out. It's produced by octopus theatricals and it's a host on a website at this moment but it's a series of one one person monologue one person shows performed for one audience member over a technological platform. I mean, somebody Chicago was doing that, where only one person is there with the person. Yes, yes, so it's similar. So, yeah, it's just one example of a lot of the work that is going on at this moment outside there but I love your idea and I think there's so many, you know, different avenues to explore when it comes to generating this kind of content that can bring people together from around the world. Right and then there's event Hutchison I'm sure you for me with her platform African women. I think it's just called African women theater platform. I don't think they do productions on me I think it's mainly a resource for where shows are being done and it's the way to connect African women writers so. I mean she may be expanding to that but you know I would love to see something like that just so you can, we can expose the work of these women. And then getting back to and you know just stop me if I'm getting off track. One of the things that I was very concerned about. This is when I went to South Africa. Like I said I didn't go there with the intent of wanting to do a collection of plays but you know when I began talking to some of the women about by then I had done my first collection play we call you know, early black women playwrights we say why don't you do something like that for us. And I just said oh okay. Um, and then I was nervous about it, because I started going to people in, you know I'm very sensitive to you know going up black in the civil rights area, you know, white people coming into our communities that we're going to write all about you. And so, even though I'm a black woman I'm not a South African woman and so my concern was, are you comfortable with an outside of coming in, trying to tell your story but in the way the anthology is designed it's it's I'm letting them tell their own story. You know I give a brief introduction but I let each person tell their story. And so I said are you comfortable with an outside of coming in, you know, publishing this book. And the thing that everybody kept saying to me is like, if you don't publish it, we won't get published, because they were saying the only time. People get to see our work is if someone from the West comes and publish the work. And, and most of the time they don't even have access to the book, which was, I found really interesting, but it was very clear when I went to Germany, I can't think of the guy's name. My friend took me into this German bookstore, their theater shelf had all of these plays by African writers, all the publications were in Europe and another young woman who said that she said, when I went to France, I found more plays by you know than I could in my own country or Cameroon or whatever. So the plays are published or published outside. And so, when I published black South African playwright, I was very, very conscious of that. And so, route which was my publisher we teamed up I say can we team up with somebody in South Africa. And make the book accessible because you know a book in the US that $30 you know that's hundreds of rain in South Africa. So Cape Town University of Cape Town. They co partnered with route which out of London, so they could publish a book in South Africa and make it, you know, accessible for people to buy. And so, you know, so that would mean just just to add on to that one of the other challenges that we're thinking you know facing you know as a producer here as I think about creative exchanges and I think about platforms and festivals across the continent. So the struggles we face being able to see our own work. And similarly be able to see our own work being published that can be presented in our own context. Right. In many ways, arguably this is some form of brain drain right where somebody or a group of folks from abroad are able because of the resources that they have able to produce this kind of work and publish it for use in their countries. But we're not necessarily able to reap the benefit of that intellectual property. Just hearing you speak about how you develop that sustainable relationship between University of Cape Town and route ledge to be able to ensure that the wealth is accessible on the continent which is where it's coming from and then abroad. It's really interesting model to think about adopting for those that are you know interested in that kind of publishing because large part of the challenge at this moment as well. On the continent. I can speak to Kenya specifically as well is that we don't necessarily have the kind of resources that roughly would be able to publish that being said, we do have wonderful publishers like jazzy is a wonderful choice of communications wonderful example in Kenya specifically about publishing house that is focused on arts and culture from both the research perspective but also a publisher that focuses on publishing creative work. Right, right. The other thing. And again this is something else. A lot of things came up out of the publication of the African women. And I don't remember if it was Dr. LaHumba that brought it to my attention or somebody else. They were concerned about. Usually, when African women are published, which is few of them. It's always African women who live abroad. You know, not those that are on the continent. Oh, and I think I had this conversation with Ahmad I do because for those of you don't know who I'm out I do is from Ghana, or she is from Ghana. And she was the first African woman to publish a play in English in the 1960s and she hate to hear that she was the first African woman. A ghost right and I published it because when I first thought about the collection to play this like, let me do all new women I said no we need to know who I'm out I do is and CC Dingo Remba and all of those people. And so one of the things that came up is that. And they may have been great. You know, she may have said, well it'd be nice if you just published African women who live here. Not those who've been in the US and the UK for 34 years, you know, don't really know what's going on over here. So, and so I made a conscious decision to do that I just had one woman from the camera room and only because I wanted something from a francophone country. And she lived, she was, yeah here in the US and she's still here. And even though I'm odd I do was teaching it ground, but you know she was here six months and she went back to Ghana six months and now she's retired she's in Ghana. So I said, I really want women who are on the continent. So the book came out it's like, why don't you have so and so in the book and it's like well she's been in the US for 30 years or so and so has been in Australia for 30 years I want people. I want women who are on the continent, those we don't really hear that much about. So it was a very conscious decision. And so this collection of performance pieces I have now. I'm so conscious of the women who live on the continent, you know, because so much is changing on the continent, you know. Yeah, I'd love to hear more about, or more so for our audience as well. You know which countries you focused on for this new project. I wrote it down because I knew you're going to ask me. Originally, and this is sort of a take off on the last festival idea called telling our stories at home, women from Africa in the diaspora. And so during the lockdown I decided I wanted to do a collection of plays which which I came, decided, calling performance pieces. Originally I was going to just do women from the diaspora then I said oh I'm trying to think as a publisher, you know publishers are struggling. I think something more international would have a wider appeal, but I have 11, I have 11 writers. Nine from nine different countries the country that are. It's, I have Haiti, I have Brazil, it's one man, but he has this amazing playing about a woman. I have Haiti Brazil to three from the US, three writers in the US, someone from the UK someone from Uganda, India, Palestine, Venezuela and Lebanon. But two thirds of the writers I would say represent the African diaspora, and I would say the women from Palestine, Lebanon and Venezuela. And I have one Asian American from the US, but I would say the majority of the women represent the African diaspora, even the women from India. These are cities people may have heard of them before these are Africans who were brought to India as slaves or they came as soldiers, almost 608 700 years ago. It's like India's, you know, best kept secret a lot of people you know anything about them. So I wanted stories of them, you know, them being in India not feeling like it's home. You know them being perceived as Africans in a negative way but they've never been to Africa all they know is India. So they have a wonderful story to tell. And as a South Asian Kenyan who's been here, you know, for five generations I think this was one of the conversations we were having early on when we first connected, just about the African presence of Africans in India and what that what cultural assimilation looks like in that context, and similar struggling this context for us, where we came as endangered laborers, or as workers for the for the railway, and have to sort of build our own lives here as well and just understanding those differences always brings up a lot of complications when it comes to, you know, diversity and assimilation on both the Indian continent and in East Africa. Actually, there's very, there's very cool festival that used to happen called the Samosa Festival in Nairobi that aims to bring Asians and Africans on the continent, or in the region together to be able to share and celebrate culture that has been created as a result of coming together these two communities. Zarina Patel and Zahid Rajan, the two board members, they have, you know, a wonderful journal as well called Awaz that highlights some of these stories of assimilation. So, and I brought the city gomas together, I think in 2010 in their festival that brought the city gomas to perform in Nairobi at the time. And that's interesting as you speak about identity. When I first went to South Africa. And maybe it wasn't the next year when I started looking for it I said I'm looking for, you know, black women playwrights or and then I decided I would just, I would use black man who write about black women. People started taking me to South Africans of Indian descent. And it's like, I said I was looking for black South Africans. And so the whole thing about what black men and again this is 95. It wasn't like they're saying we're African African people it was more of a political identity. Because I remember asking somebody that was like, well, I, you know, well we have a whole different definition of black in the US so. So I thought that was interesting and I had to define it in the in the anthology when I said okay this person is of Indian descent, but they identify is black, which is really interesting. Yeah, yeah, I think that that's present across the entire East Coast, you know, even in the West actually, you know, the continent there's very interesting studies in Nigeria as well. When it comes to the question of assimilation of the of Indians, you know, coming from the subcontinent who've been there for very many generations, what blackness means in that context what it means to be African in this day and age. And how to articulate that you know in the correct language, you know, not only to be politically correct but also just to recognize and highlight some of these. Well these diversity across the continent as well. Right, right, right. So, I brought a young man, or I guess the late 90s from South Africa, you know he sort of identified as black but he was South African but he was also Indian. He was, well, back then the boxes were small either black, white, you know just panic or whatever. So it's like, well what am I supposed. I was driving the administrator crazy. Well what is he, how do we check him out. Yeah, I mean, South African, you know he's African, but is he white or is he black. I don't know that today actually that was filling out a couple of forms and there's a question of are you Asian, are you African, are you black, I like where do you fit in right and there's a little bit of everything because the way we understand Asian is to understand East Asia and which is not me but the way we understand South Indian is also not the same. So, yeah, there's a big, big question. I think it's present in our work as well. And just really interesting complexity there. Yeah, well we could keep talking for hours and hours on end, but unfortunately we have a limit on time and I'm so sad to have to end our conversation because I had so many other questions but I guess I'll end on one note and I like to ask this question of our panelists just for our young people that may be tuned in. What's the one piece of advice that you'd have for a young person looking to enter the ads. This is just advice in general, you know, if you're passionate about something, you know, go for it. Don't be afraid of the word no, don't be afraid to fail. I don't know I think this is a generation. They're so afraid of making mistakes is so afraid of failing. You know, if you fail, you know, just pick yourself up and just move on. And, you know, don't be afraid of the word no, you know, I grew up here know all my life. But for me no makes me stronger when someone tells me no that means okay there's something better out there for me, or if someone slams the door in my face I go out and do my own. So, you just have to be, you know, persistent if this is something you really want to do. You know, don't be afraid to take chances. Like I said, I always get a sign, you know, looking at, you know, American Airlines saying come to South Africa is like, Oh, I'm just going to get a ticket, not knowing what the hell I was going to do where I was going to go. So sometimes you have to just follow your instinct and and and do things and a lot of times goals that you set for yourself. That may not be what you're supposed to be doing like I thought I was going to be the next. I don't know, Angela Bassett or whatever Felicia Rashad and I don't think. Thank God I don't know what I'd be doing if I'd stayed inactive. So you know something else, another door open and said this is probably what you should be doing. And I took a chance and I did that. And if you're a person in tech theater you'll never start, you know, you always work with people in the technical areas of theater, you know, but you know don't be afraid to follow your instinct. You know, failure is going to be there. Don't be afraid of knowing if it's passionate, you're passionate about something, you know, follow through on it but always have a backup plan. Because I'm thinking about a lot of theater artists like, I only know how to do this and I only want to do that, make sure you know because you got to eat, you know, have a backup plan or something. So many things are just evolving right now, as we mentioned earlier right that you know performance in this industry is changing by the minute so that's a really great piece of advice for us to end on in terms of have a backup plan but don't be afraid of knowing. Right. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for your insights and sharing your experiences with us and talking to us about what you see the future of theater becoming it's really always such a pleasure for me to talk to you because I feel like I'm learning and growing just in this moment is from hearing your wise words of wisdom so thank you so much. And thank you for the work you're doing you know it's such a young age how you're exposing all these writers I think it's just wonderful. And you should share you should share your website with people in your festival. Yes, absolutely the compile international theater festival website it's basically just compile international theater festival.com. And you can check it out on our pages as well so thank you so much again for your. Thank you. Everybody knows you that out there in the audience. Yes, yes and I'd like to also say a special thank you to our SL interpreters Barry and Rory. Yeah, taking it you know this whole conversation and making it more accessible to our audiences. Again, you know it's the wrap for this season but hopefully we'll be back soon with some more insights and more conversations with women across the African continent and in the diaspora about their creative practices so thank you all so much for tuning in and for being supporters and yeah looking forward to seeing you soon hopefully on this platform again. And thank you how around for consistently supporting us. Oh yes thanks to how around. Take care everybody.