 Welcome to Breeder Syndicate 2.0, where we explore the history of a clandestine scene. Researching everything from cannabis strain history, old smuggling tales from the first person perspective, to breeding science and news on current subculture. I'm your host, Matthew, and I'll occasionally be joined by my homey, not so dog, Breeder and Grower from Mendocino, to speak on these subjects and sometimes interview other participants. Our goal is to document this history before it's written by corporations and others who just weren't there. Let's start writing some wrongs. Welcome to the Underground. Weird. Before we get started too much, I gotta tell you, Francis, you tend to either cut off your head or your chin. It's like very common, you know, and you do have a very, like, long, oval-shaped head, but still, like, try to back up off the camera a little bit, so that don't happen. Yeah, you're good, but every now and again, you'll, like, reach in, and it'll be like this. You know? Yeah, yeah. Makes us awkward moments. Yeah, what really hurts me is that, like, if I put on my glasses, it's like a really awkward distance, so I can't see that well without them, but then if I put them on, I have to be, like, way far back, and that's awkward too, so... Well, I'm sorry, you know. I'm, like, all sweaty, and don't have my phones and stuff like that, but, you know, I'm a cultivator, not, like, a show personality like you guys. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, dude, I just left the garden seconds ago. Compared to most shows, Matt and I are pretty bare bones. Yeah. We try to make the content speak for itself rather than, like, all the fancy accoutrements that come with it. Gabby and I used to go to so many concerts together, and we would often have, like, joints of, like, dog and super dog and different hybrids with us, and it got to the point where, like, often people would, like, that were standing next to us, it would smell so good, they would want to share it with us, and him and I used to have these, like, running debates if we should, like, share or not, because we had literally been at events where, like, we shared a few times, and, like, people's knees would buckle because they got way too high, and then, like, security would have to come and, like, help them. You know? And so, like, yeah, we got to the point where, because, like, I can tell some stories like that. Back in the day, you know, like, the dog was, like, I mean, it still is, but, like, it was really a lot stronger than what most people had access to. Yeah. So, we smoked it every day, so we had a certain tolerance to it, but there was a lot of people that, like, two, three hits, and, like, they'd be in a space they were a bit uncomfortable in. Oh, yeah. I'll start by telling a story. I'll start by telling a story when the chem dog ruined somebody's day. Let's hear it. So, I went to a blues traveler concert at the Greek theater. It was, I believe it was 1991. I can't be sure, but it was in the early 90s. And I used to see blues traveler when there was just a bar band in New York City. Mm-hmm. You know, playing, like, small clubs of, like, 50 people. And, you know, then they got big and they opened for Jerry and, you know, were playing the Greek theater. And so, I went to the Greek theater early to wait online to get in, to get a good spot, because, you know, if you're out from out here, you know, the Greek theater is generally general admission, which is awesome. And so, I'm, you know, waiting online and I'm talking to people and I meet somebody and, you know, I'm smoking online, which I always do. And this guy, you know, he asks, you know, man, can I try that? It's amazing. So he takes a hit, takes another hit. And he went from being this, like, really excited, like, jovial character to, like, just completely, like, and not saying anything. And, like, he got so high that when the show let in, like, he sat down before the line went in. And when the show let in, he didn't go in. Oh, no. I'm like, bro, let's go, they're letting us in. And he just sat there and I'm like, fuck, I'm like, well, I'm going. Like he waited online for hours to get a good spot at the show. And then I don't know if he ever made it in because he got so high from two hits of the chem dog. Then I had this other experience. This one was at Phil did a show at the, not the Maritime Hall. Yeah, maybe it was called the Maritime Hall. It was called the Philharmonia. It was a sing-along. And I brought my camera. And I was taking pictures at this show. And, of course, I'm smoking the dog. And this lady behind me asks if she can hit my joint. So I'm like, sure, let her hit the joint. And I warned her at this point because I had already had this experience with a few people. She's like, oh, no, I smoke every day. You know, I'm good. So she takes a couple of hits off the joint. And I'm not paying attention. She's just behind me, right? And I've been taking pictures and I got this like film camera around my neck, you know, with a strap. Next thing I know, she collapses. And it's like falling on top of me. And I'm like, what's going on? So I spin around. And when I spin around, my camera spins around and clocks her in the head. It was like a one-two punch. She was going down from the chem dog. And then my camera clocks her in the head. And she had to get taken to like rock med over there. And they're like, what is she on? What happened? And I was like, it's just weed. It's just really good weed. And like, you know, so yeah, I've had a number of times when I shared the chem dog with people and it didn't feel good. And after a while, I started just telling people like Francis said, like, you know, I'd be like, no, sorry. That just makes them want it more. People thought we were being dicks. And like Gabby and I would be having these conversations like, are we going to ruin this person's experience by being cool? You know, it happened enough. People thought I was stingy. People did. Who would think you were stingy? I've been telling everyone I'm stingy. It's like 5,000 people, you know, on Discord that think that Gabby is fucking just stingy. Holding on to it all, Gabby. Right. I mean, I, that's funny. I will say, I don't know. I don't know if you heard this part, Gabby, but I have mentioned a few times how like, when we were doing all of those, when we were making those like super dog hybrids and we were playing around and we were doing all those out crosses and stuff, Gabby was honestly like one of the people, like earliest people amongst my entire friend crew that sort of saw like the future American seed sales coming. And he used to talk to me and be like, dude, we could, we could take this eight lighter, you know, and cause we did big seed runs, you know, we take this eight lighter and he's like, we could make so many seeds with this eight lighter. It would just blow anything you could do with flower out of the window. Yeah. Like we could sell so many seeds and it was like so early. This was, I don't know when it was probably early 2000s or something. It was so early, it was long before, you know, seed companies in America and IG made it like feasible. I honestly, like we'd get into arguments and I was like, I don't see it, dude. I don't see how we'd be able to do it. I don't see how we'd be able to have customers. Take money and all these people. We couldn't. No, we couldn't at the time. But you were right. I saw what was coming and I was like, no, it's not, it's not going to work. And then like 10 years later, I was like, man, we were just like too early. Business models that are built on volume and there's business models that are built on scarcity, you know, and the margins are very different. You know, if you have huge volume, you can have smaller margins. You know, if you've got big volume, if you've got big margins, you don't need huge volume. I mean, it's crazy because it's kind of the same thing with clones right now, except it's more like people taking advantage like selling shit for like $1,500 a piece. That's just like a garbage cross that, you know, just because they made a good name for themselves. And like at the Emerald Cup, people will be waiting online for like the entire Emerald Cup to pay $1,500 for clones that ended up having virus. Yeah. You know, like it was just, you know, I mean, it's part of it is successful branding and then not being honorable about it. Yes, very much so. I mean, it sucks because I think it's a flawed business plan because as soon as you build up your business to the point where like you have all these people that respect you and think that you're awesome, and then all of a sudden you fuck everybody and the word gets out and like it's so much worse now. I heard a lot of stories about deals that went bad with them. I mean, I don't know if you want to cut this out because I ain't trying to just talk shit about people, but you know, he had contracts with people that he had to give them like, they had to give a certain dollar amount for their crop and their crop got completely ruined because it was all virus and he still wanted his money. Meanwhile, like he destroyed these people's livelihood by giving them like infected genetics, and I'm not saying he did it on purpose, but like you give people infected genetics and then you sue them for not giving you the 200 bucks that like, you know, and meanwhile these people couldn't get 300 bucks or 400 bucks for like quality herb that was, you know, it's like, I mean, the thing is, is like Francis and I said, the seeds are so cheap, right? That if you have a problem, like this is an opportunity to show people that you're solid or that you're a scammer. Exactly. That could have happened to anyone, that you know, the seeds were no good, whatever. They just need to be like, look, we stand behind, you know, our name and our product and anyone that bought that is going to get, you know, not just their seeds replaced, they're going to get extra stuff. Yeah, for wasting their time. Make the customer feel good because in the end, the seeds don't cost you shit, you know, and like you took so much into making your reputation, how do you just screw so many people over, let the whole world know that you're terrible and fuck over your entire business. I don't understand how people do that. I run into this all the time, Gabby, when we chat where it's like, a lot of times I will talk in generalities about like certain things that go on in the community because even just telling stories that are true, people get mad. But if you mention, like when we, if I mentioned somebody's name specifically as an example, their friends will like cut out that 15 second clip and send it to them. And then I'll have like furious people in my DMs all mad that I'm like trying to like fuck with their wallet or destroy their way of life or like disparage them in some fashion, you know? Okay, so one thing that I want to say, that's not really a story. I don't know if it was not so dog or someone else in the discord that said that what people appreciate me is that I didn't flex. Yeah. And, you know, I thought about it and I said to myself, I'm not opposed to flexing. Yeah. For shit that actually I can flex about. I don't feel, I don't feel like I'm that responsible for it and there's other things that I'm so much more proud of like my Hydra store, the garden spell. You know, I had the first real grow shops in Mendocino County. There was spare time supply, but they sold lights in the back of an ocean container to people that knew about them. Yeah. And I opened up a grow store in Willards at the time Highway 101 stopped being a highway and just was like a one lane on each direction road through the town of Willards. So anyone traveling north would drive straight through town. Yeah. And I got this little store on Main Street. What I was saying was that when I put my store up, it was right on Highway 101 and I literally lit up the highway with the orange glow of high pressure streams. And it was the talk of the town. Like nobody could believe that I was being so ballsy to like put these lights up in the street. Yeah. And, you know, one by one, you know, the locals from the hills came down and they heard that they could trust me and that I would deliver soil to them. Holy shit. I delivered soil in the most dangerous and not like dangerous, like gun dangerous, like the roads was just psychotic. I bet. Like if I would have known, I never would have done it. You know, you get like committed to this drive and now you can't turn around. Yeah. You're driving this like U-Haul style box truck loaded with soil through like 10 creeks and shit. And you're like, oh my God. But I taught a lot of people how to grow weed and I taught a lot of people how to grow better weed than they were already growing. And I brought new products to our market and that's the stuff that I'm really proud of. And it's not that I didn't always love cannabis and always grow cannabis, but for a long part of my life. Okay, so let me take a step back. Here's how the story went. When I was growing before working and owning hydro stores, I was paranoid and I wasn't making friends and I wasn't talking to people about growing weed, which is what I realized I really like to do is talk to people about growing weed, which is one of the reasons why me and not-so-dog got along so good, because that's what he wanted to do too. And what happened was one day, the hydro store that I was shopping at, it's called Hydro Depot, the guy asked me if I wanted a job. And at first I was like, no, I don't want a job. I'm doing pretty good doing what I'm doing. And then I realized that if I got this job and I worked it for a few months, I could make a legitimate income and then maybe work towards buying a house instead of renting my entire life. So I started working at the Hydro Depot and that's when I realized that as much as I have a passion for growing, I have a passion for talking to people about weed and teaching people what I know about weed. And I really felt like my calling was to do that because not only was I making a good living, I was loving every minute of it. When clients would come in, I would love talking to them. I let other people handle the inventory and all the boring stuff of running a business. And I would just talk to people about growing weed. And I was always really honest with them. And that's why people came back. Because they knew I wasn't just trying to sell them some shit. Because often people would come in and be like, should I buy this? And I'd be like, absolutely not. Don't do it. A perfect example was LED lights before they were ready. When I opened up my store, it was 2002, there were already people trying to sell LED lights. Do you remember the UFOs, Francis? Oh, yeah. I mean, they were garbage. You couldn't successfully grow basil with those plants let alone a fruiting crop. And they sold for a lot of money. And I used to tell people, if this technology worked, I would make so much money because everybody would want to change. Everybody with high-pressure sodium would immediately want to buy these LEDs. I would kill it. But I couldn't with good conscience. Even though people coming in wanting the lights and I'd have to be like, no, it's a bad idea. So I'm proud. And this is a very minor flex that I feel throughout the years I made a good reputation for myself with growers because I was honest and I was a place where they could come for information and they felt safe. Yeah. People felt safe at my store. And, you know, so when we're talking about flexing, it's like, I think I can flex about that a little bit. I'm proud of that. I hope that that's, you know, it's going to be a part of my legacy, you know, when I'm gone. For sure it will be now. The chem dog thing is just like, you know... Well, I don't think... And I'm blushing and, you know, like kind of like it makes me smile that I'm getting this attention about it. Like, Greg, he's the one that popped the seeds. People that he distributed to, like, what do they get the credit for? Like, where do you draw the line of giving people props? For me, is it you, Francis? Is it Jason and Ben? Or like, people 10 rows past them that got it that maybe did better shit with it than all of us. Well, I look at it a little different. You know, I'll talk about the chem dog for a second and then I'll move on to the store because I actually think there's some parts about the store that people would not really realize today. But I'll start with the chem dog. Obviously, I think that, you know, for whatever reason, even though it might be... Like, even though people might play a small role in something, that role could be super important. Like, it turns out somehow that the cutting that you brought west seems to be the one that survived. And I'm not sure if it would be around if you hadn't come out to California with it and then eventually shared it with a few close friends like Skunk VA or IC Collective or myself or whoever. And so, you know, like, that might be small but it's also important because it was a critical step. Like, when they wanted it back on the East Coast, they had to get it from the West Coast because that's where... And in prohibition, right, where people get busted and people move on and things change, a lot of cool things got lost, right? And so I kind of feel like my only part of the chem dog story is really like hearing the stories early, right? And maybe helping to preserve it at a time before it was famous. And then, like... And so, perhaps like on the store thing, people might not realize this, but one of the things that Gabby was talking about which was critical back then was that information on how to grow good weed was really hard to come by. And most people that knew how to do it wouldn't talk to you. So, and stores were also super rare. Like, Gabby is right. When he opened up his store, he was the first... If you want to make me blush, Francis, you can repeat yourself. All right, so I do feel like... I know you say nice things about me. As Gabby mentioned, when he opened up the store in Mendocino County, there was like Spare Time Supply, which was a big player, but they were predominantly a garden store and an outdoor store and an amendment store. There was no indoor or greenhouse focused store going on at all. And stores back then were actually rare, right? And there wasn't very many of them. And having someone in a store that was knowledgeable and willing to talk, right, was huge. And it was kind of a risque thing. And even though Proposition 215 had happened, it was still very much in the shadows. And so, I think you sort of opened up your shop at the very beginning of the 215 Medical Green Rush here, where there was all these people coming to our county and coming to Humboldt and these different areas that were new. They had no idea what they were doing. And they were like, I want to set up a garage in a greenhouse and I don't even know what to get. And so, for a long time, it was like eventually stores became like who had the best price and people were more knowledgeable, but probably for the first five or six years that Gabby had a store, it was, I mean, he sold stuff, but it was also like it was tons of education on what stuff those people needed. So, you know, the store in the early years was basically like a massive educational model and then as Gabby and then, you know, educated people, they bought things from him. Because they literally hadn't, they didn't know how to wire stuff. They didn't know about like, you know, lighting boxes. They didn't know about fan movement. They didn't know about any of that. And so it's like they'd have money and they're like, what's the best set of equipment for my set of circumstances? And so you have this whole county that was starting to really blow up and grow. But the funny thing about it is all the stores that opened up, they were all my customers first. Yeah. Like I literally taught them everything that they knew about business. So people don't realize it today, but like information was the thing that was super important. People literally, they had money, but they had no idea what they were doing. And like what's weird about it too is that you start like, if you spent time there, you learned a bunch because people would come to you, not only to get set up, but they would come to you with like every problem imaginable. And you would have to, and Gabby would have to sit down with them and figure out how to solve it. And then the more you help people solve it, the bigger your like information or expertise or knowledge base grows. So when someone else brings up that same problem, like you have, right? And so I don't think people today with all the, all the forums and all the information and all the internet and everything really understand how hard it was to talk to people that knew how to grow we, even on the basic level. Like, and so probably the first five or six years, his store was open. It was a boom time where everyone in Mendo and Humboldt and all these places were just constantly setting up new stuff. Whether they were indoor, whether they were greenhouses, whether they were light deprivation, it was just an enormous boom of economy. And maybe 10% of the people knew what they were doing and would come in and like would have a good idea of what they wanted and battle on price and stuff. But often they would come in completely oblivious. You know, and so, and so I just wanted to mention that I don't think in today in 2023 people understand like how ballsy having a hydro store was and being willing to openly talk about, you know, about growing with people. You know, I mean that was the era where like you walk into a head shop and you say the word bong and they toss you out in case you were undercover and they were going to shut down your shop. For real? Right? You know, there was, you know, there was a, so it was pretty risque. It was like pretty out on the cutting edge of things if you will to do that type of stuff. And so there's an enormous amount of people that got their start buying equipment and buying soil and buying all kinds of stuff. I mean, one thing I could mention is like when you opened your shop, dude, we were still all growing in like, you know, in like light warrior or, you know, or perlite peat moss mixes and stuff like that. Gabby was one of the first people to really like preach about cocoa fiber and how it was going to revolutionize like growing and you know, people had no idea what it was. That's wild. Whatever, like at all, you know, and it was brand new. Okay, go ahead. So what I remember is that, you know, cocoa fiber, if I remember correctly, the reason why it became popular was in Europe, they decided that they wanted more environmentally friendly medium to grow in, right? And Rockwell wasn't it. And so they were looking around for something that was biodegradable and a renewable resource. And they realized that there was these giant piles of cocoa fiber in Sri Lanka and India and other places that were just waste products that they shredded off the cocoa to get to the coconut, right? And so they realized that if they started buffering it and treating it the right way, that, you know, it could be an excellent grow medium. Yeah. And then Gabby got some and there was stuff that was from like because in Canada it was RHP certified, which basically meant it was regulated and it was guaranteed to be a certain level of quality. And we started growing in it. And I remember Gabby being like, oh my God, dude, like we pull plants out of pots and be like, look at these roots. I bet. Like literally, like look at how white and happy you look at and from that point on, he was kind of like a little bit of a profit about it. And no one had ever really heard about it. And his store had it. And I think he got lucky in that he was getting it from reputable sources. Yeah. And there was other people that were getting it cheaper, but they were getting it full of like sea salt and it was unbuffered and people were having nightmares in the beginning. Oh, sure. Right? But I mean, his store was open right at the time that like cocoa fiber first started percolating around and no one had even heard of it. Wow. You know? And, you know, people back then, they didn't even know, you know, it was even simple stuff like why 600s were better than thousands because they were cooler and they gave you more points of life. Yeah. You know? There was a lot of stuff that people consider basic now, which was like essentially, in my opinion, like hidden knowledge. And so he's right. He would just talk all day long to people and they would write out all kinds of lists of stuff they needed. And then he would hand the list to like an employee and they would start filling it and he would turn around and he would talk to the next person. And so he just talked about growing weed. Here's the reality. Francis was way better than I was. Really? Yeah. Wow. He was. I mean, he had patience, you know? And I'm just like always like, I'm trying to help people as quickly as I can. I mean, I wasn't like I was rushing about the door. I wanted to make a comfortable environment, but I was just always busy too. One thing like I tried myself in. So my hydro store was based on largely a Dutch model. And the Dutch model was I went to Holland and I went to the growth stores and they all had espresso makers there. And I had this idea. Okay. Because when I was working for Slavic, she would always say to me, Gabby, I want them to buy and get out. And what I try to tell him is that the longer they stayed, I got opportunities to sell them more stuff. Yeah. You know, he would see he would see it as I'm just talking to these guys, you know, for 45 minutes about growing. You know, and then he'd rather maybe sweeping the floor or something else. Yeah. But in the end, what I was doing was building a repertoire with the customers, you know, that they would trust me. And then they would shop exclusively at our store. And, you know, they would trust me. So when I opened up my own stores, the bar in Spout, you know, I put a coffee bar in. And I had chairs there for the customers to hang out. And that was pretty unheard of for a growth store was to make a place like I wanted it to be a cool place where people want to hang out. Yeah. You know, and of course some people abused the privilege and got annoying and we'd have to ask him to leave. Of course. But for the most part, like it wasn't only me talking to people, other people would like hear what people were saying. And then they would like interject and it became like almost a gathering point, you know. So as far as how I got involved with the cocoa, it's because that's what the Dutch were doing. Okay. And I met people while I was in Holland at the Hortie fair, which is like a traditional ag show. Yeah. And then when I opened up my store, they had heard about it. They came and visited me. And, you know, so the first one we will buy because cocoa and then canna cocoa. And then, you know, I started trying to source some myself from some of these reputable companies. But like I said, like those are the things that I want to be proud of. You know, to me that that's like a much bigger. You know, that's my minor flex, you know, I think it's one thing I want to say about the chem dog flex, how much of an asshole would I look like if I did flex about my part with the chem dog? I mean, I think I'd be like, I'd be looked at like an asshole. Like, like you're saying other people think others are assholes who are doing that flex. Yeah. You know, the only one who's got the real flex is Greg. Yeah. You know, and like anyone else asked that. It's just kind of like, all right, you have it. What did you do with it? Yeah. You know, like Francis said, people did good shit. I think Jason made beautiful crosses with the chem dog. Yeah. You know? And who else did you? I see. Yeah, them too. So I mean, people did great stuff with it. And that's their flex. What they did with the chem dog, not their like part of the chem dog story, like they acquired it. Okay. You know, and having said that, like, I don't really care. I'm happy for Jason and Ben that like this could help them in any way. You know, like, it's just not like, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love this. I think it goes back to a different era where the way you got cuts, generally speaking back then was like, you honestly became good friends with someone. And then what was that like, and then you shared things and then you did things together. And now people would call it a collaboration. But back in the day, it was more just like, you know, friends doing cool little side projects together, you know, like friends sharing cuts so we could help keep them alive because there was fires and accidents and busts and different things that could happen where you could lose something. And it was much more informal. So it was like, you know, you know, sometimes people would be like, well, how do you get cuts? And it's like, I don't know, you like become friends with someone that has cuts, but that's not the reason why you became friends. It's like you have an honest relationship with someone. And then that leads to other things. Yeah. You know, so it's almost like organic in the way that it like it developed, you know, and I don't know. That's just kind of how I see it. But I think, I think it's very one thing that it's not necessarily a flex, but I think it's very, very special to be someone who inspires someone else who does something quite remarkable. It changes a culture, whether it's sour, whether it's Cam, whether it's getting to the West Coast, but helping inspiring other, whether you're teaching, growing any of that to be able to, to like know on your deathbed that you've left something behind that has inspired someone else and made their life better. Then that's that, you know, I mean, like, that should be good enough. Right. That's ultimate. So that's why I said, like, if you called up and said, Hey, Gabby, I was talking with not so dog. And we want to talk to you about the garden spout. And how you, you know, accomplish so much. And then it'd be like, all right. Yeah. I mean, like, I'm proud of that. And I can actually like, you know, you know, but like this idea that I had such an integral part of it. I mean, I had a little part of it. I brought it out to the West Coast. I don't want to minimize it either. Like, because I know if I didn't bring it out and it's not out here and maybe it's lost. But that's that we did. I wish the breeding projects that we did produced more of like what I actually wanted. Yeah. You know, like more of a chem dog, you know, terpene profile, because we, we did some great shit, but it just didn't turn out that dog like. And so if I would have done that, then I could have been proud of that. And then I could have felt like I had more of part of the chem dog history because I took it to the next step. And maybe that is a reason for Jason and Ben to flex because that is what they're doing. Right. They're taking plant that pretty much it would be a mistake for most people to grow it. Period. You know, like, unless you're looking to use it for breeding, you know, like growing this for the flower. You know, and having said that, I want to grow it for flower again because. Yeah. I feel like I have knowledge and tools available to me now that I didn't have them. And maybe I could get it to show me something, you know, better than back in the day. Absolutely. You know, the one thing I was mentioning in the discord is leaf tissue sampling. Yeah. Yeah. That blew my mind. I hadn't even thought of doing that with it. Yeah. I've been working with this at facilities that I worked with worked at. And so I'm, I don't know who to give credit to, but somebody mentioned to me that, you know, we've been looking in books at this is what this deficiency looks like. This is what this deficiency looks like. But generally what that means is this is what a plant looks like when it has zero nitrogen or like it's not deficient. It's just absent. Yeah. Also, or extreme deficiency, right? Yeah. And then also those photos never show you what does deficiency look like when it's a number of elements. Yeah. That's true. You know, like because what it's going to look like is going to look different. And, you know, for years, the standard thing was, oh, add more cow mag. Yeah. I didn't look right. Well, kind of whatever it was just add more cow mag. It always makes everything better. Yeah. It always makes it green. Plants like calcium. And when I did my testing, the testing showed that I needed more calcium. Okay. Interesting. But at least we're not just guessing. Yeah. You know, the testing is really inexpensive. It's like $75 to $100 per sample. Okay. Okay. And so it's very inexpensive and it gives you a lot of information. And with the chem dog being the plant that wants to consume itself prior to harvest, like, you know, two weeks before you're supposed to cut it, you'd have not a single green leaf left on it. Yeah. No. It was so hard to keep this plant. Yeah. With the leaf analysis, we can learn how to feed it a little bit better and maybe keep it greener a little bit longer. Yeah. And actually, you know, actually get a product that is more like what we've been looking for all this time. Sure. One of the, one of the things I might mention, if we're going to like flex for Gabby here or whatever is, That's not what time of this is, is it? No, but I know we did enough of that. You know, I used to go, I used to go into a bunch of different hydro stores for various reasons. And I think Gabby was the first person that I knew that was really pumping tissue culture, not like the Maristem stuff, but like the profit, like the cleanliness and the propagation and all that. And there was this guy, Bill Graham. Bill. Yeah. He's still around. And he had these, and he had these kits. And he, Gabby used to have Bill come. T-C dot com for people that didn't want to look for it. He used to come into the store and Gabby would have him do demos of how to sterilize like a tub, how to get clean, how to like take clean cuts and like bleach and sterilize the cuts and then get them into solution. And I can tell you, like as a, as a grower, it looked like some voodoo in the beginning. I bet. You know, like at the time, nobody was doing that. Nobody was even thinking about it. Like nobody was, nobody was applying that to cannabis by, by any means. Yeah. And you know, he had a whole shelf on his store and he would invite Bill in and he would, and they would do demos in the shop and he would get people to try it. Wow. And all of that type of stuff. And I mean, that was literally in the early 2000s. Long, now it's become like a big, the only reason that made me think of it is as you were talking, Gabby, about leaf tissue, like I kind of feel like because weed was so illegal for a while, we were reduced to observational stuff and we didn't really have access to labs and we didn't really have access to some of the scientific stuff that regular AG did because we were too scared and the labs didn't want to deal with us. So we had to like work off what we saw and talking amongst ourselves. And now he's right in the sense that you can go get tissue analysis and you can get hard data that backs up your thoughts, right? Yeah. But, you know, tissue culture was like some voodoo, you know, taking these tiny little plantlets. It seemed very extreme at the time. Like why would you go through all that trouble when you could just clump. It seemed extreme, but now knowing more about diseases, you know, hops, lightning, viroid and stuff. I wish everyone would have been using that method. And you know, I mean, Bill would have been and, you know, Gabby would tell a bunch of good customers and friends and stuff that dude's going to come in and he's going to give a demo and he's going to teach you how to use this stuff because it was like, especially to a bunch of growers, it was like some straight voodoo. It was advanced. So let me say something real fast. So I sold a bunch of those kits. Yeah. And I honestly believe almost no one took it out of the box. It was still, it was still too like intimidating. Like the kit didn't cost shit. I think it was like 135 bucks or something like that. It was really inexpensive, but they had to go buy a pressure cooker and make the gel and like, you know, I was able to sell it, but like most people were still a little bit intimidated to do it. And I remember I was intimidated too. Like I had bought the kit. I didn't do it for a long time. And then one day Bill Graham comes to me and then every single day I was doing tissue culture in my store, in front of people that were just walking in and, you know, even though they didn't do it, they were still like inspired and it made them excited about something, you know. Exactly. But yeah, a few people actually did it. It wasn't as much. I really thought I was going to advertise things by like people adopting this and doing this. And it was kind of like the seed thing. They just weren't ready yet. Yeah. I mean the seed thing is interesting in that, you know, I talk about this on the show quite often where it was like, you know, Gabby and I and some other close like we honestly were just trying to make better wheat and all the seeds we made, all the projects that we did, especially because of what like flower prices were back then, it was a terrible financial decision because we could have just been blowing up rooms of flower and getting top dollar for it way back then, you know. So it was literally like a labor of love, you know, and it was it wasn't necessarily about like, oh, what do we think people will like? It was like, what do we like personally? And can we make stuff that we like? And, you know, Gabby, I was thinking about it because Matt and I have been blessed in a way to talk to some of like Neville's good friends that were close to him in the last years of his life. And it's funny because one of the things Neville said is like, I wish I didn't fail so much, right? I don't know if I did if I don't know if the best stuff that I got, I improved on it at all. I wish I knew now I wish I would have known then what I know now and I had a different shot at it. And so I think that thing that you expressed is very common in breeding where people that breed are very self-critical and they tend to discount what they did when they did it because they wanted it to be better and they had their own goals in it. There's a lot of failure. If you take it serious, there has to be a lot of failure because you just be hitting numbers all day and that's just not how it works. I mean, I don't think it's failure in the sense of you produce something beautiful. It's a failure in the sense of you have an expectation of what you're going to produce and you have a lot less control of it than, you know, because that's just ego. Either that or it's really expert breeding. Or really anal attentive people. I mean you would think so when we did the F1 cross with back to the chem dog and then we grew out so many thousands of these seeds you would have thought that some would have really been dog-like. Yeah. They just weren't. So you would think like when you do that first cross you get the most diversity and now you just got to do the hunt. But the skunk was so dominant that you know there was traces of it. You know? Yeah. Of course. Dogweed. You know? The other thing I think we should mention because like the game has flipped now Good. Is that when Gabby and I were doing all this all the feminized reversals and stuff like that were still years away. We kind of thought that like at times that like for methodism and like accidental pollinations were going to lead you down the wrong path. All the stuff that we did was with regular males and so you had to create hybrids and then and back cross and all that and you know we had to grow out the seeds to see if what we did did what we wanted. There was no idea that we could take two females and reverse one of them and add this it was all regular well we knew we could do it but would never consider it. Exactly. We were already selling seeds by that time feminized. We thought that hermaphrodism and seeds from hermaphrodism were risky. Hermaphrodism. Because you were going to infect your line with more traits that were bad and you know and and that was just kind of like I don't know in the early tooth out like that was just the common thread then. I'm still uncertain. I'm still uncertain. I was talking to Matthew about this the other day like to me like it's you know it's weird. It seems like it's very common. Well I know it's common and I know it's commonly done but I still feel like doing this has to pose some type of risk. No I mean it's common for people to feel like you do. But do you think we're wrong? Yes I think you're totally wrong but to an extent. Is this proven by genetics yeah yeah yeah. I mean maybe it's just hard for males to accept that like we might become irrelevant. I mean it's actually normal. I would accept that more than the cannabis plant. The cannabis plant male is the most unappreciated plant on the planet. I agree. Now we've gone to a point where regular seeds are you know unicorns almost in the cannabis world almost everything is feminized reversals of some fashion you know. When Gabby and I were doing it like the only feminized seeds we knew of were you know accidents essentially. Accidents. I mean yes 100% I'd never heard of reversals. The only reversals we had ever heard of then was like you got a lot of the plant to hermaphrodite itself you put it in a small container you gave it drought you messed with the light sky cycle until it freaked out and did some weird stuff there was nothing there was no sprays we ever thought about trying to like induce anything it was like you basically like tortured the plant until it did what you wanted that was the tech that we knew of back then I think and it just seemed like the wrong path yeah it's like I said it's very common for people from your era to still have that mindset everybody we've talked to on here from your exact era all have that same opinion still to this day and it's like you know I feel like I always say that you're old when you think you know everything and so I'm glad that I'm not confident about this and that every day my opinion might be going more towards towards yours Matt like in our conversation we had I feel like selfing could be more problematic or it seems like you know could have more potential for problems but so one thing like we're talking about Colin from ethos like he said something and it seems so obvious it's like how can I go my whole life and not think of this but when you cross two females you have a so much better idea of what you're going to get oh for sure and like trying to judge trying to judge what male was the right one to use it's like I don't know you know you have to be very very adept or very very lucky you have to do things over and over again and then do a lot of testing which is almost impossible to do like how does one grow out thousands of seeds and preserve every single clone of everyone trying to smoke every female I mean we would do Gabby and I would do this thing where we settled kind of like when we were doing the super dog stuff I think we picked out our seven or eight favorite males based on looks and certain traits and then we put them all in the room not so usually like the ones with the cute butt cheeks yeah we put them all in the room and then you know they get to a certain point like you beat them with a bamboo steak or something like that and all the fans are on and you just like the pollen would just spread everywhere well it's going to make the hunt harder but since we don't know which male is doing the right thing all we wanted to find was the one we wanted to just find the one and we wanted maximum diversity and that's how you're going to get it trying to be so arrogant that like you can pick it that wasn't us you know so like having three or four males in there was a big yeah finding that needle in the haystack the way we presented it when we gave them to they're all going to be good you know the two phenomenal plants crossed together it's just like they're all going to be good but you know you've got to grow a bunch of them and you're going to find you know a few that are super amazing yeah do you remember Gabby the one of the final one of the final breedings we did I was trying to I was racking my brain for their names and their names really aren't important I guess but you had these buddies of yours and they gave us a version of the Black Domina and they gave us that warlock and those two things because we did this when we did the one of the final super dog breedings we basically put these like I don't know seven or eight different males that we had picked in there like four dog females that we liked and then literally like every good cut that we could get access to so we had the dog and we had the super skunk and we had the you know the Mendo P and we had the warlock and we had the Black Domina and we had like literally every good female cut that him or I had we kind of gathered them all up and we put them in there and we needed to find the one knowing what it was knowing what it was would have been helpful to try to do more things like that but like for instance I don't remember who gave me the Black Domina but I remember the reason why we bought it was and I think that was like from Sensey Seed or we purchased Seed from from some Seed company the description said extremely spider mite resistant ah yeah so the weed was garbage it really wasn't that good but if we could make our weed we could cross it with a not so dog and get a plant that was good quality and spider mite resistant that was a good thing so that's why that one was in there what was the other one that you mentioned do you remember the warlock they both came from the same people I can't remember who gave me that but I remember the weed yeah they were your buddies neither was that good yeah but if you're comparing it to ChemDog I imagine not I mean the funny thing is like there's things where I felt exactly how Gabby felt and then years later I was like man I was just like discounting too many things because they weren't like my favorite doesn't mean they weren't valuable it just means that like couple you know and as I got older I appreciated different qualities to weed you know where in the beginning it was kind of like I don't know you know you wanted that weed that tasted amazing and like hit you across the head with a two by four yeah in a way you know I wanted to cover sour a little bit more we talked a little bit about how you met Klopp but what were some of your impressions of sour honestly I didn't have many till much later on when was your first experience with it I mean we used to grow a lot of it you know I don't remember exactly when it was it was one of the deal with it was it was a highly productive strain of beautiful weed that we could sell easily yeah and you know I was on the discord and somebody had reminded me or tell me that most of the people in the discord are really small growers like they grow in a tent and it's for personal use and you know there's a big difference between that and even somebody that grows in his garage you know has a 10 lighter in his garage now you do need to make some money to pay for your expenses and the whole reason why you put up 10 lights in your garage was to make a little money in the first place so you have to do what's marketable and that's part of the reason why we gave up on the cam dog in the first place because when you're getting such a terrible yield you know for this plant like we couldn't justify we'd have to sell it for 50 to 100% more than we would this hour we weren't getting that much more for it so we would keep it and we'd grow a little bit for our head stash and like Francis said you know somebody was growing it and we would all share a little bit of it the shit would never get sold because we're growing such a small amount of it you know it didn't make it to the marketplace so and you know I want to publicly say this I love cannabis should I say that louder I love cannabis I want to make a living working in cannabis and to do that it's like a total different thing than when you're just trying to grow yourself whether it's in your backyard or in your tent you know it is if I was growing just for myself I would just grow OGs that's really what I like to smoke whether it's the chem dog or other really nice OGs that's really the palette that I like yeah and actually I should say this diversity and there's that always the staple that I go to every morning but then I'll mix in some other stuff like I love sativa terps I love citrus terps I love to have a variety you know so as I was telling you guys I smoked these soft carts and I have like 30 different types of terpenes some of them are so aggressive that it's shocking like you smoke them and it's almost offensive like it's too much but it's still awesome you know but still I still always lean towards the OGs is what I like now right now in California in the commercial marketplace it's hard to sell a lot of OGs wow and in the it's been going on for a minute and I think you know like in the discord people are hating on gelato but fuck that's what big farms just wanna buy right now they're missing the market lots of gelato yeah let me tell you a mistake that I made having a new nursery right and I have all these genetics that are super awesome but nobody knows anything about yeah and so you try to sell people on this stuff but with today's market they need to know that they're getting a home run yeah and so it's so hard to get them to try something new you know when right now they can sell all the lemon cherry gelato they can grow so like when I started this I didn't have a lemon cherry gelato I was like by the time I get this thing in mass production it's gonna be like the ice cream cake yeah nobody's gonna want this weed anymore yeah but like it's managed to have lasting power as the demand for the flower and the clones so if you're growing a 10 lighter in your garage you're really better off you know growing something that people want you know and then maybe a small section of it for your own personal which is what Francis and I did yeah we always do a little bit of a chem dog but like we had to go to a strain that was more productive and people wanted to buy it you know the funny thing about the chem dog the super skunk is the most beautiful weed like the chem dog is the best the super skunk like I think that weed is the most beautiful weed I love the way it looks too yeah it was green and frosty and it smelled like crazy and it was super pungent and it's a kind of aroma recognized by Americans as like crazy smelling you know and I also think too to the point that Gabby was making it's weird in that if certain strains don't leak and they don't get out to a certain amount of people then the demand for them can't grow which then makes selling it much harder because we would try to sell the chem dog and they would be like this is kind of like some like bag seed OG or something how good could it be if I don't have access to yeah and since there was only like a few garages or something like that in a greenhouse or two that was trying to grow some it was like brokers wanna buy a home run and to them that wasn't a home run and it was before the forum fame and it was before it got like a really big name for itself in public and so people just wanted things that was going to be something easy for them to flip there's always a divide between a lot of market decisions I was just gonna say that a lot especially in Mendo and Humboldt and stuff like that a lot of times what broker what growers grew what was what they heard the brokers wanted and was easy so there was a few years there like for instance if we wanted to go back and talk about Gabby's store every big indoor grower in Mendocino County was growing some kind of purple urkel or granddaddy perps or something like that right? you remember how many Laytonville indoor gardeners Gabby were growing an urkel because it was easy and the urkel granddaddy perps all those type of things and then the market shifted and it went to Cush and all those growers dropped the purples and went right into what the brokers wanted and so there's a there's a lot there where it's like you might end up liking a strain but you end up growing a small amount of it for you and your friends and a lot of times you end up growing what the majority of what you grow is what you think the brokers or the market wants to absorb relatively easily so here's my new strategy I want to have 30% of exclusive stuff that you know I'm bringing to the market you know one way or another I want to have 30% of you know up and coming from known people and then 30% well that only ends up to 90% so 33% of each 33% is what people want right now you know that way I can I can sell people what they want now while creating a demand for products under my brand as well as partnerships with existing brands you know but thinking I could do it all with like exclusive stuff that nobody knows anything about even though like it's fire weed that won the ammo cup like that takes a little bit more today than it used to it takes a lot it takes a lot and a lot of legal a lot of legal farms they're sort of drowning under upfront fees and costs and taxes and operating expenses so their margins are a lot of times quite tight so they really want home runs because they're worried about survival you know especially for you know for most people it's not a particularly lucrative time in cannabis it's kind of more of like a stay a float time and the more it's like that the more people want certainty and so that leads to sameness because people want it hurts quality and it hurts diversity because people are just trying to produce an already popular thing at a low cost and get somebody to buy it and it's risky like he was just saying to try to promote fire that you personally think is amazing but the market might not think that yet and so do you have the capacity to like convince them or are you just going to sit on it's different than when your market was you were showing your friends your weed and smoking some with them and you know then it was easier now it's like selling it in bulk to whether it's a distributor or a broker you know everybody it's too far from the final person for people to be taking these risks and so they're just pumping the gelato you know and realistically like today I think in California most commercial farms they have some type of gelato in their rotation you know because the market is calling for it you know and the consumer I don't want to call them idiots but they're uneducated that's the best work for it well it's also to be fair to them Gabby it's also hard to make new decisions when you walk into a legal store and everything that you want to check out is in a sealed opaque mylar that they can't touch it, smell it smoke it or get excited about it they just have to like spend a bunch of money on it and then hope when they open it up it's something good and a lot of the way these mylars are designed you don't even see the cannabis inside it until you've walked out of the store and purchased it they just look at what percentage THC it is whenever it has the most they take that that's what they've been told and then even if a farmer wants to take risks it's not just on the farmer the distro and the dispensary also has to be willing to promote that to the customer so the farmer often time doesn't even have control over whether or not the customer is going to get educated properly on why they think it's so good yeah I really really try our best to reach out to bud tenders with this show as crazy as it sounds they're the last point before the customers and we want them to be at least the most educated out of the whole ring because they're the ones who interact the most with the customers you know what I was remembering Gabby and I don't know this is a totally random story but Gabby and I did a project together where we built this greenhouse on a property he had and we thought it was we thought it was a huge greenhouse at the time but now it's like laughably small but do you remember when we grew the Maui dude and those buds were so big we took those pictures where your head was behind the cola and all you could see was your ponytail and like your ears sticking out because there was these giant the classic high time the classic high time submission photo yeah right that's what you know we'd see in high time just like a butt in front of their face because you know we had these giant we had you know we grew I mean we had Urkel and Maui and Superdog and various things in there those things probably burned in your fire but at some point we had all these pictures and that's hard too because I was thinking about it and it's like before phones had cameras on them there was so many less pictures taken there was so many less you know Gabby had some nice cameras and so we took some really cool photos of various things that we were doing but all it took was a fire or a bust or an accident or something like that and all that history would be lost you know yeah I always remember that I always remember that like of Gabby's head behind these Maui buds and all you could see was like he used to have this really long ponytail and you all you could see was a part of the ponytail and maybe the corner of one ear because the bud was like you know it was like because my ear is a fucking big but I mean it was pretty risque I mean like you know I think like we started on it the greenhouse was gonna be 20 by 50 and Gabby thought that was enormous so we shrank it to 20 by 30 and he was it still seemed like it was ballsy you know within a few years it was on the top of the hill open field and you know a few years later that kind of stuff was a little bit more than norm but at the time it was coming out of the tree lines and it was coming out of the indoors and it was coming out of these tiny little scenes and it seemed giant it seemed giant oh yeah for sure you know in that regard and uh you know even the idea that you could put something like you just said in like an open field and you wouldn't get in trouble yeah you could actually get away with it that always blew my mind about up there in the emerald triangle that anybody could do that because like you could you cannot do that here still there's no way well it's it's it was always a game of cat and mouse what it was huh like our thinking on it was so there was like a generally like well known or maybe it was wrong we always thought like as long as you have under 100 plants then it becomes the like the feds aren't going to want to deal with this and the local cops they're dealing with much bigger people so with the greenhouse they could never actually and actually you're allowed to medically have 25 plants at this time so with the greenhouse was like you can't really see what's in there you know and so if you can't see what's in there then you know we felt a little safer maybe it was just you know we were kidding ourselves even though you could smell it yeah but you can't smell it from a helicopter and if you could you wouldn't know what you're smelling because everyone was growing up there I mean it was a remote the whole idea was just like keep it kind of small and make it not worth the trouble of that now the issue that we never thought of is you got a perfect landing pad over there they could have like landed 10 helicopters up there right so it wasn't like this shady like a sketchy mountainside terrain like where they have no place to put it it was not like they had like a flat mode off fucking landing pad over there it would have been bad I mean I'll bring this up just because I just thought of it but like when we were growing the skunk you know like that spot we were just talking about it was remote enough it really didn't have neighbors that you were too worried about but when we were growing the skunk inside it was kind of before the carbon filter era it was more like where you had like you know the uov Nair like the the ozone generators and stuff and you'd grow that skunk and like two weeks before it was done you'd pull up into your driveway with your windows down and you'd be like oh my god it smells for 50 yards in every around my house like I'm slaughtering skunks like I'm gonna get in trouble oh my god it reeks and we used to do all these things like caulking and like venting and trying to do all this different stuff and it just beat every effort we had to try to contain the smell it was uncontainable and so and some people would get rid of it because it was too fragrant it like caused panic you know it was like and it like the skunk oh there you go so it was the skunk yeah correct Francis this is what you're talking about it reeks he don't know anybody else he knows it might have been super skunk or skunk I mean the thing about it is for me is that I always thought Gabby that like you know that when I when I when you gave me clones it was like you gave me the dog and you gave me and you gave me skunk and just by your stories I've been thinking about this too okay and you know and I know how important this is to so many people so I don't want to get it wrong right yeah but I explicitly remember getting the skunk from dude in Virginia right and that plant isn't the one that looks just like the the Sensi seed catalog and we had gotten we had gotten the seeds from Sensi and that's how we got our original cross that we were that you know then we got the males from to to make everything else like super dog and next so that so that so that so that's the way I remember it but as such an important part of history you know I'm not signing in to David's or anything like that exactly but that's that's all anyone wants you know what I mean like if you don't quite have an answer and it's best guess that's the best guess that's that's that's it more advanced than we were before yeah and I mean I will repeat the same story the next time I speak to you like you said that somebody was telling the story and every time they told it it was a little bit different I don't think I want to tell it differently no no no this is this is a lot different you know I'm also not swearing to accuracy you know no I smoke a lot the problem is it's a it's a it's a long ass time ago I don't hear is that I mean it really it's it's literally decades ago yeah so I mean ask yourself the question Francis didn't we get the seeds in order to make the first cross yeah hope here's the thing is that when we were talking earlier you were like oh we just used the males right but from the sense but we had that one female right that you that like that you gave me so I don't know how that one female came to be because by the time that I came into it like you gave me the skunk you gave me skunk and dog the same day so let me ask you you don't you don't have it anymore correct I lost it when I got in trouble and you know whatever that was why does anyone give a shit it's a gun because because because one of them one of them is probably in sour and one of them is probably in Kim dog D and Jeezel and they're very important parents so I think that's true but I mean if we don't have it but we have the we have the last two and we would like to know kind of which one went where because people don't believe us on that on that little part of it I don't know so what part is not believed that like the Kim dog D it would have the same super skunk Kim 91 connection okay they still think it's sisters so they don't they don't believe us yes we disagree with them probably neither of us will ever be proven right or wrong and we can just enjoy this debate for the rest of our life I mean we don't have enough source we don't have the source material beyond people's words you know to do it we need to have all the genetics maybe if we had all the genetics futuristic technology right but we already don't have all the possible genetics because it's lost that super skunk I can identify it from a photo of a bud if somebody was growing it like the weed is so unique and it looks just like the fucking sensei seed catalog photo like it's the only weed that I've ever grown that you could do that with I'll send you there are people that think it's I mean this causes all kinds of debate because what happens now Gabby is that people get excited about old school famous strains and then there's opportunists that are like I found it now I'm gonna sell you clones for high dollar or I'm gonna make a bunch of hybrids with seed and you'll be able to get it in seed form and so there's a bunch of fakes that proliferate about various stuff there's all this politics that goes on with it the buyer must be where they must be where and that's why you buy seeds from a reliable source like riot seed go right because if not you know the buyer must be where if you're only paying even 100 dollars a pack 150 dollars a pack when you got situations like companies that should be remain unnamed that are selling packs for a thousand bucks or something like that then you really want to know you're getting something I think genetics are worth that much when you're actually getting what you're promised if someone is saying this is what you're getting this is what you can expect I think genetics can be worth thousands of dollars but when you're dealing with unrepeatable people and the thing about unrepeatable people is they get called out pretty quick you know like the other person we were talking about before well you know what happens is Gaby is that honestly because we don't have genetic testing and because we don't have the guaranteed what we have is we have stories right and these stories get you know like there's people that are like they buy into the story and then there's people that are like that guy is a scumbag I don't buy his story at all but Francis if we answer these questions life would be extremely boring and some people would have no lives I get it dude it's just like what are these people going to do when they stop arguing and dog or the skunk is there's funny things when I would tell those stories on previous podcasts there would be people that would get all mad at me and they'd be like you don't know the dude that brought him west you were never really friends with that guy you're fucking making it up and I'm like I don't know what to tell you dude I don't know so why didn't you call me dude I got this fucking phone number right here you see it's here now you know I'm glad I could help I would rather call you Gabby I'll say it again for people that are just stepping in what Francis said was pretty accurate anything that was inaccurate or not completely accurate was maybe some timelines and minor details that really don't change the story much at all you know like the basis of the story is the same yeah so I mean honestly I think you did a better job than I would have been able to just because you know you've been thinking about it for longer and you know you've spelled it out in your mind and possibly on paper what you've thought about it he obsesses all those stories just come from like a million times of like me and Gabby sitting on a couch somewhere stoned shooting the shit about week yeah that's where it all came from like it's just friendship sharing stories about this or that or whatever and like that's honestly like why I believed Gabby so much more than some of the later stuff that came up was because he didn't have a reason to lie yeah it was way before the fame it was years and years before Skunk The A got on the forums and anybody knew Chem Dogg the public hadn't heard of it it was just stories amongst friends and he was able to it was always the same story no matter how you guys were yeah it was just us it was just friends sharing stuff yeah and Gabby and I had a very similar view on weed in the sense that like we both liked really good weed and we both wanted to make better weed if we could you know I almost didn't say it dude but like way back in the day I liked sativas and like Gabby hated them because he was like dude I'm so high strung I want weed to like calm me down he's like maybe you're so calm you can get like a little anxious or a little bit higher he's like I don't want to do that dude I need to mellow out like you're mellow enough you want to smoke sativa and get all zippy fun not me down you know I need to be brought I need to be mellowed out people were telling me to chill out too people were like Gabby chill the fuck out well I mean the other way I'm gonna have to stop this in a minute it's alright we're good I'll say this is that California is a bunch of you know it's a lot chiller Gabby coming from being a New York Jew coming west he was loud he talked fast people thought it was aggressive but it was like where he came from he was like that that was normal as normal could be so it was just like it wasn't anything weird there's cultural differences you move from the east coast or New York to California it's not culturally the same when I moved from Chicago to Mendo I was like oh my god I'll end it on this because Gabby's gotta go but my best friend growing up that became really good friends with Gabby too he passed away a long time ago but he used to do this thing where he'd call it California nice and he'd be like if you wanna tell me fuck you just tell me fuck you don't be nice to me about it I'll take it fine just tell me I have no interest let me add one thing to that before I let you go I remember when I first got to California it totally freaked me out when a cashier would start making conversation with the person in line in front of them I'm next in line and this lady's like how you doing? hope you have a great weekend and I'm just like thinking just fucking bring her up so I can get my shit and get the hell out of here like exactly now I say hello to everyone at the supermarket well I'm that guy you enjoy the rest of your day buddy love you tons alright 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