 Think tech away, civil engagement lives here. Welcome to Asian Review. I'm your host Bill Sharpe, our show today, Taiwan 1988, Taiwan Today. And joining us from Taipei, Taiwan is Dr. Jerome Keating, who is a well-known political commentator, author, and educator. Welcome to Asian Review. It's great to have you with us again. This is your, I think your third time on Asian Review, so we're always glad to have you. That's right, Bill. And of course, from my side, it's always good to talk with you, good to talk about Taiwan and talk with Hawaii. Hey, there we go. There we go. Well, let's get right into it, because we've got a lot that we want to cover today. Well, you arrived in Taiwan in 1988, just after the end of martial law. So give us some idea of what Taiwan was like at that time in terms of, you know, socially, economically, politically. And what's it like today? What's the comparison? What are the differences? Bill, there's been a lot of big changes. And since I've been here almost through the duration, the changes came gradually, so they may not have seemed that extreme. But if there was a person that was here in 87, 88, and then came back now, they would say, wow, what happened? But let's go into some of the things. And politically, the garrison command still walks the streets. They would be disbanded in 1992. If you went near the ocean, you would run into military patrols, I guess, guarding against infiltrators. And even I remember going to Shintien from Taipei, there were guards on the bridges. So you had this strong military sense and control. Vic, let's just talk about, you know, because Taiwan Taipei is very convenient. But the MRT, which I was working on, did not really start functioning till 1996 with the brown line and then the red in 97, the blue in 99, and of course it has gone on. So the MRT Mass Rapid Transit has made a big difference. The high-speed rail, the gaosheng, was 2007. You have to take a plane or a slow bus down there. So those convenient things, the idea of entertainment, almost anywhere in the city, you can find a pub or things going on. At that time, there was what we call the combat zone. It was the place over by Lin Sen Be Lu and the where they used to have the R&R from Vietnam. It was the only place you could find some of the big changes. But otherwise, the media, now there's a real key area. When I came, there were only three TV stations that were kind of government controlled and it was very boring and focused. Now you have just about with cable anything in the world you can get here, multiple hundreds of channels. You know, the changes came, but when they come gradually, you don't notice how stark it was from the beginning to now. Well, let me ask you this. What was the sense of identity in 1988? In other words, if you were to ask somebody in Taiwan, are you Taiwanese? Are you Chinese? What would be the most common response? Probably they would say more Chinese and this I would attribute to both brainwashing and what you could call the syndrome. Though I do remember talking with... Many should explain the Stockholm syndrome just for the benefit of our audience. Well, once, okay, they can Google it, but when someone has been held prisoner by someone and they only hear that person's dialogue, you begin to side with your captor and then you begin to take on this like Patty Hearst, I think is an example that maybe U.S. people would identify with when she had been captured and then took part in a bank robbery, if I remember. Right, absolutely. She lived right around the corner from me in Berkeley, by the way. What a nice neighbor. Right, so that would be... Now of course people really identify as Taiwanese. They may recognize a Chinese heritage just like the U.S. we recognize a British heritage. We teach British literature, we follow things in Britain, but we're American. Okay, I didn't mean to cut you off, but moving right along here. Now you are a retired university professor, you taught in Taiwan universities for at least 25 years. No, no, no, no, no, no, not that long, Bill, the... Not quite that long? Okay. No, I first remember I was manager of technology transfer on the Taipei and Gaocheng MRT. Oh, okay. And I even taught a little bit at AIT when they used to have a program here. But I then taught at Chinese Culture University and then went to Taipei Daxue, which is National Taipei University, different a little from National Taiwan University. And that's where I retired from. But since then I have come out again and taught at a couple other universities. Okay. And do that if they get a special grant. Okay. So how would you compare college students of your earlier years in Taiwan with today's college students? Okay, now that's a very good point there because in my earlier years they had a very strict entrance exam and the students to only the top university that took the exam. And when it was at Culture University, usually we were the lower choice. They would normally take the national universities if you pass the exam. They would take the national universities first because it was more prestige and better benefits, less or pay, et cetera. And the students used to complain that they felt they were the low class, but I said, hey, you're the top 30% of everyone taking the class, the test. Now the test, just about anyone can get into a university like it is in the US. So that's one factor. But what comes and relates to the people would elect the president. So that generation, much or freedom, the current generation is totally on the opposite. I call the Gen D, the generation democracy, those born 1990 on. 1990. If you're born in 1990, you start elementary school in 96 when the president is elected by the people. You only know democracy. So that's good in one way that you don't have some of the baggage of the past. But it can be a little faulty in that you also don't know the past as to how you got that democracy. And I've seen that in some of the younger people. They don't know, say, the detention or prison. And someone who lived in Jingmei right outside Taipei didn't even know it was there. And yet people like Annette Lu, years in jail there because of their protests in Gaoshuang, in the Gaoshuang incident. So those are two factors that come in. And that will be, in a way, shown in the current election, because I think we want to get to that. Right, Bill? Right. We do want to get to that. But I want you to finish this thought, and then I want to talk about what is citizenship in Taiwan. And I think that will take us up to the brink, and then when we come back we can focus on the election. We want to kind of talk a little more about the university students then. Well, a little bit more about the university students. Right. And, okay, in the old days it seems to me that the universities were under pretty tight control. There was a party, a KMT party secretary there that kept track of everything. There was oftentimes military policemen on campuses, et cetera. Of course, none of that exists today. And in the past, it was pretty difficult to have student activism. But nowadays, what's the level of student activism on college campuses, given that there are none of these controls? Okay. Yeah. A good focus there. There isn't that strong military teaching classes put in a quotation marks. The students, you know, how many of them are like natural students are just looking worse by career going, because they feel secure in their democracy. And so, you know, they've gotten past that, you know, the Akman, I think the sunflower movement was probably the best expression of it when they realized one was getting too close to China. Discussion of ECFA in the legislative yen was not done item by item. They just wanted like a blanket approval. And probably, you know, the biggest protest that in a way is even, well, it's hard to compare because the Wild Lily movement in 1990 was just to push that we want our leaders, our legislators, and our president elected by the people. This group has that. So now they're going a different, another step forward, and they are saying, okay, what are our leaders doing? And we've elected them in the legislature, and they seem to be giving the farm away in ECFA. And that's what the sunflower movement was all about. Well, that's interesting. Now, we're coming up to break here. We've got about a minute and a half to break. But let's start on this question. And if we need to, we'll finish it up when we come back. Citizenship in Taiwan, what does citizenship mean in today's world? I think it is growing, Bill. I think they are very proud. I'm going to give you an example, 148 countries in the world. So Taiwan citizenship ranks pretty, ranked number 29 of all countries, which there are about what, 192 or so. Now you can, so Taiwan is ranked number 29 of countries, China is ranked 71. That's a big gap. So China only entry in 74 countries in the world, Taiwan has 148. That's double China's. So if I'm looking to have, you know, and travel the world, citizenship in Taiwan, and I don't know this, but it is twice as good as China. That's a really interesting point. But what do this, what's the responsibilities? How do people see their responsibilities as citizens? In that respect, well, like in the typical Western view, American view is, well, you get out on the boat, you have a very active interest in public affairs, you express your opinion, you attend civic functions in order to increase your knowledge of civic affairs, you hold your leaders responsible. Do those same ideas resonate with people in Taiwan today in terms of citizenship? Yes, I'm going to qualify this, and maybe we can take this up after the break, but... Speaking of the break, I have just been told we now need to take a break. So let's go ahead and we'll take that break. We'll come back in one minute and we'll resume this conversation because this notion of citizenship is really, really interesting. And I'm sure we'll learn a lot about Taiwan, but with further discussion of it. So you're watching Asia in Review, I'm your host, Bill Sharp. My guest today is Dr. Jerome Keating, political commentator, author, educator, coming to us from Taipei, Taiwan, where he's lived for a number of years and has deep insight into Taiwan society, and all its features of that is socially, economically, politically, and we'll be right back in one minute, so don't go away. Hey, loha, my name is Andrew Lening, I'm the host of Security Matters Hawaii, airing every Wednesday here on Think Tech Hawaii, live from the studios. I'll bring you guests, I'll bring you information about the things in security that matter to keeping you safe, your co-workers safe, your family safe, to keep our community safe. We want to teach you about those things in our industry that, you know, may be a little outside of your experience, so please join me, because Security Matters, aloha. And aloha, my name is Calvin Griffin, the host of Hawaii in Uniform, and every Friday at 11 o'clock here on Think Tech Hawaii, we bring you the latest on what's happening within the military community, and we also invite all of your response to things that's happening here. For those of you who haven't seen the program before, again, we invite your participation, we're here to give information, not disinformation, and we always enjoy response from the public. But join us here, Hawaii in Uniform, Fridays, 11 a.m., here on Think Tech Hawaii, aloha. Welcome back to Asian Review, I'm your host Bill Sharp. Our show today, Taiwan 1988, Taiwan Today. And joining us from Taipei, Taiwan via telephone is Dr. Jerome Keating, a well-known political commentator, also an author of books, and an educator. And just before the break, we started discussing a really interesting topic of which I promised you, the viewers, and Dr. Keating, that we will resume once we came back. And that is, what is the notion of citizenship in Taiwan today? Now we know that Taiwan is a very vibrant democracy, a very proud of its democracy. But it was a one-party state for a long period of time where citizens' duty was to basically, if I'm not sounding too egregious, was to sort of be quiet and obey the government, and don't make any trouble. Today is quite a different story, but it goes further than that, and that's what we want to dive into right here. So, Dr. Keating, let's continue our discussion of this notion of citizenship in Taiwan. How would you define it? What are its characteristics? I would say, now you mentioned like voter turnout. Generally, Taiwan voter turnout is quite high. I would say it's generally around at least sometimes 70 to 80 percent. And coming election will be interesting in judging the mood of the people. I think that's a higher percentage rate than the U.S., by the way. Definitely higher than Hawaii, which has one of the lowest turnout rates, if not the lowest turnout rate in the country. Despite all the steps the state government takes to increase voter turnout, like mail-in balloting, you know, that kind of thing, it's just still bismuth low. And I look at the—and I'm going to knock the U.S. elections a little. I just saw something recently, and I don't know how true this statistic is. But like, there are 40 million registered Democrats who didn't vote last time. Trump lost by about three million votes in the popular vote. He won by three key states with a total of between the three of about 120,000 votes. And I'd be willing to bet, if you examine how many people did not vote, it would be embarrassing. That said, you know, Taiwan people are pretty still. They really treasure the vote. So they come out pretty strong on this. And this is where we're going to get, you know, some different generations and for different motivations. But say the new power party, which you're familiar with, Bill, you know, that came in a way, many of the voters feeling the DPP were not quite going far in Taiwan-ness and pushing the agenda of care for the people of Taiwan. And the new power party took five legislative seats in the last election. Very good for a first-time party. That is good. That is good. Well, do people—as part of the citizenship in Taiwan, do people feel the responsibility to be well-informed about public events, public policy, and that kind of thing? Or do they just vote on when, as a lot of people in the United States seem to? I think they're pretty well-informed. You know, we have TV channels, both blue and green. They can get their perspectives. And they—I think they take it—especially, as I say, the generation democracy people who don't have the baggage of the two parties of the past, which has a good and bad effect on them, the—you know, sometimes they should know more about the past, but also they are more swing voters. It's—you know, they are conscious of, what is this person doing for me now, regardless of what party they are in? Right. Well, let's talk about some of the specific races. We have the big nine-and-one election coming up very, very soon here, November 24th. They will determine the occupants, the holders of 11,000 positions throughout Taiwan, everything from the mayor of Taipei to the lowest level official, that is publicly elected official. Let's start off with the big one, Taipei. And we should mention that Taipei is next to the president—presidency in Taiwan is the second most important political position because it's often seen as a springboard into the presidency. So what's your prediction on the race in Taipei? Okay. Well, first I'll say, you know, Tsai Ing-wen is the only one who was not a president—who was not mayor of Taipei, who became president. Well, good point. The others, you know, Li, Chen, and Ma, all were mayors. So those are saying that the incumbent Kou Wen-je is in the lead. I do not think he will win in this one. I think Ting, Ting Xu-cheng, will win. The green have a candidate. But I think the vote between the green and the independent Kou will split and Ting with a core from the city. So I am going against—I predicted this back in July. I still hold to it, even though the polls say the opposite. I was talking to somebody at the University of Hawaii today, Chinese history professor—professor of Chinese history, who also happened to be from Taiwan. And he was saying that Ting is leading by 3 percent—no, I'm sorry, Kou Wen-je is leading by 3 percent. Well, it's not much of a margin. Not much of a margin at all. So that might just be support for you, what you're saying. Right. Even before Kou was leading by much more, but whatever he's leading by, I don't trust the polls that much, to be honest with you. No, I think anyone that follows Taiwan knows that the polls in Taiwan are very, I don't know, easily manipulated. I suppose that's the way to put it. Okay, well, let's talk about the other race, another big race, and that is for New Taiwan. We have the former deputy mayor running against the stalwart of the DPP, Su Zhong-chang. What's your take there? Okay, I think Su will take it. It's going to be a close race. The biggest complaint against Su seems to be his age, but to me, when you're in charge and you've got good staff under you, if you know how to run the show, which Su does, you can do it. There's a lot of baggage from the past with some of the scandal in the city. So this one's going to be interesting to see what people latch on to, but I think the green will take it. That's very interesting. I watched Chinese TV sitting here in Taiwan in Hawaii, but the only station I can get is CTI, Chinese TV, and it has a reputation for being very pro-nationalist party. Just yesterday, they were suggesting that, and again, this could be a question of questionable polling information, that Ho Yee had about 56% of the vote and Su had about 23. Such a wide gap. I don't know if I buy that or not. If you look at what Eric Chu won by four years ago, he did not win by that much, and he wasn't incumbent. That was a foretelling to me that the green almost took that from him, and he was one of the best KMT candidates. Let's talk about, I've just been told we're down to one minute here, so we'll have to do this one pretty quickly. I also see on China TV there's a lot of attention given the Hang Wuyu in Gaoshuang, and he seems to be on the TV screen 24 hours a day almost. That's an exaggeration, but he suddenly has made a presence there. What's your take on Gaoshuang? I think Chen Chi-Mai will take him. When Tsai Ing-wen was down there campaigning saying that she's going to give more dollars to Gaoshuang for the southbound policy, Hang Wuyu has a lot of China support, and this is makes him questionable, I think, that a lot of Chinese dollars are supporting him getting all that TV time and recognition. I wouldn't be surprised at that. He seemed like a person who could be swayed by China. Yeah, so I'm picking the green on that one. As I say, Tsai was down there campaigning also that Gaoshuang is the key to her southbound policy, and I think that will resonate with a lot of Gaoshuang people. Great. Well, it looks like the clock has caught up to us again. That time really literally flies, and so we're just about done here. I want to thank you a lot for joining us today, and as always, it's really good to talk to you and hear your views, because you've been a very close-up observer of Taiwan politics for a really long time. I want to thank you and the audience for watching today, and I want to remind you to join me next week when my guest will be United States Marine Corps retired Lieutenant Colonel Gary Kirshanik. He has been teaching at the Thai Military Academy, actually, the Royal Thailand Military Academy, as it's officially called, and he'll join us to bring us up to date on what's going on in Thailand. We'll see you then. Okay. Bill, can I get a last word in or not? Sure. Okay. I have two things that I think we didn't really get a chance to talk about the referendums, and they will be key to watch. And the other thing, I will make a recommendation that your program sometime in the future handle the difference between the one China policy and the one China principle in the same sentence. Many of your viewers in the U.S., I think, have no idea what the one China policy really means. Okay. We'll keep that in mind. It looks like we are out of time. So we'll talk to you later. Good.