 with the definition just to bring everybody on the same page I'm sure you're all aware of what MVP stands for you're familiar with the concept and we just pick one of the quotes that is describing it from Eric Reese I think was one of the first ones and it's saying a minimum buyer product is a version of the product that allows validated learning with a minimum amount of effort so I mean it sounds really fancy it's it's awesome right so it's validated learning if you think about it means your customers are showing you what they want what they willing to engage for and and what they're willing to to buy and you only have to spend very little amount of effort and time to achieve that and as soon as you have chip something they tell you what to do next so I mean it's an awesome concept right and it's a huge success it coming from the startup world and if it works for startups it's even working better for big corporations and for brands and I'm sure all of you working of some kind of MVP or have used to work on that and yeah if reality kicks in it's might be slightly different we are some people what they what they think about an MVP if we're going to talk about MVP what is the first thing that comes in your mind and it's kind of controversial some people are just stating this kind of overrated it's a different way of getting things done others are saying it's a nice concept but the application is kind of difficult so might be the reason why we're standing here today and even others are saying it's just a way of avoiding detailed design and providing true quality yeah kind of true there's there's never a version 2.0 we all know that that's also kind of true and and even others are just challenging if we all know what's behind it and what's the idea behind it and yeah we try to summarize this in one picture and yes so if you're into Monty Python you probably know this scene what's happening here you have a King Charles meeting the Black Knight and you know the story of the Black Knight was that he was a little bit overconfident and he was refusing to give up and I think it's a nice metaphor for the MVP approach because you know you're confident and then you can make it and then you know the budget is being cut and then you lose one arm and then you know at the time is being cut because we have a deadline and then maybe also the flexibility is being cut because we suddenly need to have a fixed scope and when the additional scope comes in along the way then you have a problem but you know if you make like once again this click yeah this is just a scratch you know we have to move on like we it doesn't matter like what will you do like will you bleed on me you cannot we have to move on you have to go on with the project and you have to basically deliver based on the you know requirements that you have time budget everything yeah so my name is Paulina I'm with FFW since two years already I'm client manager I'm happy when clients are happy I'm happy when teams are happy and I'm happy when we can deliver on time and with me today Thomas yeah I'm I'm Thomas I'm the head of digital platform at Leica camera I'm I'm industry in the industry quite a while and I'm still a convinced advocate of atrium methodology even if we talk about a lot of challenges today yeah if you if you haven't heard about Leica camera I'm sure you have heard about FFW but shortly about Leica camera we are a photo manufacturer company is around for over 150 years so it's kind of the inventor of the compact camera so it's the company that first came up with the idea to produce a small camera you can carry around with you and yeah we work together with FFW yes we are FFW we've been founded 2000 we have our headquarters in Copenhagen however we have 25 offices across the world we have a digital strategy experience innovation for for plenty of customers and of course we're hiring just just in case just in case all right so what are we going to set the focus on today so we we know when we talk about atrium methodology this is a huge field so I think they could feel another talk and and even another conference so we would just like to focus on some of the aspects regarding the MVP which is scoping obviously which is expectation management and which is the team which is the the baseline of everything and we try to find the sweet spot between all three of those I'm not sure if we found it yet but we're still searching and just a bit of context why we're standing here today together because we did a project and we're still working on on that solution yeah yeah we're still here and obviously the Leica website is based on Troupol and we now we launched it last year and now we improving it constantly and we would like to share our experiences of this this project and the time after that just a little disclaimer we are not agile coaches so I'm sure some of you know much better about atrium methodologies and all this kind of stuff as we do and obviously we also don't come from a startup environment where the concept may be working much better than in a corporate kind of agency client relation and so on so we would like to share from that point of view so different experience the real talk right the real talk yeah all right let's jump in straight away to scoping and I promise this won't be the last chart because as I said it's not a lecture about methodology it's more like sharing our experiences but it it I think it's it's a very valid picture and as you know there are four values within a project to make it successful to adjust it to be successful which is scope obviously which is time or the schedule which is cost the budget and its quality regarding quality this is something we don't see as a as a value to adjust quality should all be the highest you can make to fit your brand values so this is not something you can adjust and on the classical project management you always start with the scope yeah you define what you're going to get like like in a restaurant what I ordered I would like to get I ordered some schnitzel and beer and I would like to get it please and in those kind of projects mostly kind of cost was an issue because it was over budget or at least time was stretched and you raised deadlines and stuff like that and some smart people came up with the idea to change the system and say okay let's let's fix the cost there or they had fixed cost because it was a startup and they had just a budget and let's also set a time where we would like to ship something pretty soon obviously and let's keep the scope open just let's do what we can let's let's do the best stuff that is most valuable to us first always reevaluate what to do next and what's best and let's see what we can make it and and just yeah stick to cost and time and I'm still and we still believe this is a great concept but it brings the core challenge when you're talking about MVP and agile and that is that the scope is always flexible you never know what you're going to deliver until the first release and even for the second one you don't know what will be in there so that's the core challenge to to the agile methodology and yeah why should we bother why do we think it's still a great concept and as in the in the initial phrase was stated oh some important notification from the team um system is down um yeah so the core the core of the idea still stands you only deliver or implement what is really important what really brings value and you're faster you're way more efficient than in other ways and what comes with it is it's kind of a collaboration it's a cooperation it's co-everything yeah you work together agency and clients within the entire organization obviously with your customers and your users so you build this together this is way more efficient than just building something and see what happens so um we still believe in it but um yeah it's a challenge right yeah and the beginnings are always tough right so how how do you decide what you're even taking you know into the mvp scope right so obviously it has to be a product that it's functional and can be used right so this is maybe not something that you want to have as a mvp version right and you have to kind of you know we have to gather requirements you have to sort through the clutter you have to make a tough decision you have stakeholders you have you know needs that have to be met maybe some some political decisions in the background that has to be taking into consideration and you have to remember that some parts of the projects or even maybe some projects won't be suitable for the mvp approach like by default by design basically so this is also something that you have to think about it and i think even for like you know premium brand is like you know when when we deliver like you know the website was like half done you know it's it's super difficult to you know explain it right to internally it definitely is i mean we are premium brand like only perfection is the right level of quality to ship to customers and then you come up with an unfinished website this is really hard to digest so and we had a we had a hard time doing that um so i think next time maybe we do it differently but um that's that's really a difficult task so and yeah i mean even if you manage to decide what's in the mvp what is core what is valuable to you um you're not done in the process um you have to do this task all over again yeah if you manage to tell your client or your stakeholders what will be the final result what is the first iteration of the product um this is not valid anymore after two or four weeks and you have to start over again and our recommendation is and to be honest we are not 100 there hopefully we'll get there be as structured as you can on the whole prioritization process and deciding what will be what will be the most important more valuable feature and and find i mean there are a lot of frameworks out there like rice or musko whatever you you know much better than we do there are frameworks there and and pick one and and really um stick to that one yeah explain everybody how you do that make it most transparent as you can make people participate on that and really stick throughout the entire process on that on that method because this is one core thing if you don't know what you're going to deliver at least show people how you decide on the on the go all the time yeah let's talk about the projects and products actually for a second right because you know we have the the project mindset and we have the product mindset and very often we are facing clients or project that are that are done according to the project characteristics and you may think actually that the product characteristic the project that characteristic story is very you know close to agile but it's actually not really it's not really above the delivery there are some you know some some stuff that you have to consider you have to consider that the funding will be different right so if you think about the project you're basing you know the you budget on based on resources and time actually when you found for the product you found for life of the product right so you you just you base your decisions on on business needs right so you know work stops in the fixed state for the project yeah the project is done we're moving on we move on to another project this this just doesn't work too for building products so you we have to think about that and of course there's lots of change that has to be embraced when we think about the products like we we could you know write a book about how many discussions we've been having with also here teams and you know and we together with the stakeholders like why why are things changing and you have to just accept the fact that the change will come right so focus on the features not on the plan and of course track the project by by business value which also has some implications right absolutely and I mean killing the project idea is really hard for senior management to understand and and it's really a hard time to get this through because they need some some items they can kind of control put budget on or put budget away and then you know know what they get know what they what they buy so if we come to like senior managers and ask for budget and tell them this is a commitment for like three to five years at least they really get nervous so and then we don't have a final solution for that just maybe avoiding the term project talk about initiatives and a commitment and products and so on so really to get the idea across this is a tough one yeah absolutely and this also has another implication when we're talking about the about money basically basically and about funding so the project mindset influences the decisions in terms of budgeting and you know the project mindset influences the budget so the budget is fixed and sometimes it's fixed along the fixed scope and a fixed timeline we'll be talking about is like what what the consequences does that does have and of course when when the client comes to agency we have to do some estimation if we know this you know it's always a hard discussion like how do we estimate the project like how do we even start this conversation right so we already at the beginning back to square one where we have to say like can we maybe you know keep the scope flexible and the rest fixed right and then of course this is super important for the for for the agency in terms of planning right because if you plan with the project you actually theoretically have a team booked until a certain date and then theoretically the team would have to move to another project we which we know that won't happen if we build product you have to have a long breath right you have to take months you have to take years maybe to do to you know be somewhat ready at some point right so this is also something that makes lives easier for for clients for client managers for project managers as well right it's a different tracking so yeah basically product mindset makes a lot easier when talking about project like ours absolutely yeah let's let's come to the second part expectation management is my favorite part I mean first why why should we consider like expectation management I mean on agile methods you always hear like teams are autonomous they they decide I mean you notice from the entire community here they know best what's what's good for the user they have done all the research there should not be a manager or a client to decide what what has been done and even better the team should be self-organizing I mean this is really that that's the way we should head to but no thanks this is this is not reality in reality I mean not talking about startups again but in a corporate organization and working with agency and and and and and client you're never autonomous the team it has not the mandate to decide everything this is should not not what is happening there there's always kind of a sponsor somebody who puts the budget on it there's senior management there are other departments they have a stake in that so there are other people around they would like to have some influence this is just reality just face it and our recommendation is first understand who all those people and they're probably not on your project if within your your scope your stakeholders obviously not your direct client most of the time and there are other people in the organization they would like to have influence so understand who they are and what they want and I can tell you it's not always like features or even business values or kpi sometimes it's just gg or political or whatever just try to consider that in the very first phase of the project and and start the conversation about it and secondly when we talk about expectation management you cannot set up a really great method and a great team and everything consider them agile mature how agile mature your organization is yeah do they work on an agile setup do they do they know what an mvp is are you the only mvp in the entire organization or the others how is the company already progressed on that topic and and just yeah understand where they are and again if they are way on a on a different kind of mindset also kind of educate them and tell about your project and explain how the method is going to work and why this is better than the other one and so on so really consider not only your project set up and and your program and your product consider the entire organization um where they are and I think this is also nothing that you can do at one day or day one right it's like uh it's a long process and you really have to it really takes time so I I mean I I know some insights from Al Jans the big insurance company and they have they have went for the Spotify model they have set up like tribes and tribe leads and chapter leads and all those kind of cool roles but in in in their minds they're still very classical they're talking about project plans for three years ahead and and all this kind of things so really it takes time to drive this change even if the organization might have changed already so really consider that and and be patient for that and yeah if you think about expectation management the most uh ask question that I asked get asked like weekly on a weekly basis and ask you as well hopefully not that often is when are we done yeah this is everybody wants to know when is it done yeah and as we have described in the first place you kind of never done so and and yeah we found this kind of showing us product hopefully you watched big bank theory otherwise it might look a bit strange but um it's it depends on the perspective yeah are you done with the sprint yes we shipped something with the release yeah I mean we are on the stage to gain some insights we kind of done with that are we done with the achievement of the business value or is the product successful not yet no we don't um so it really is it's a tough one to explain somebody where you are and if you're done or not you can only explain the process where you are but not the final result and uh yeah so if someone's listening to the live stream of our stakeholders I think stop asking this question we're never done Marco please stop yeah Marco please stop yeah so what is the solution for that and and we don't have answers for how you how you can solve all those kind of problems or issues um but one core solution is or one core approach is be as transport as you can yeah um make the people participate on your process explain how you're thinking how you're progressing what you're doing there how you prioritize features um what kind of insights you gain from users let people tell their opinion uh what kind of feature they think is most or most important and all those kind of things so really make them participate on the process be as transparent what you do and then you don't have to explain where you are all the time and one recommendation also don't promise too much we tend to like okay the MEP is the first book but then we will like achieve the holy grail yeah I mean a lot of business value and KPIs are rising and stuff like that so um it's not always the case so like the first MEP is not really an exciting thing so really like uh don't promise too much on that and another point that is important is that yeah we are here right so the moment we launch the MVP we are somewhere at the beginning of the journey actually and very often the MVP is being seen like the launch right now new story starts new chapter so it's not it's actually the first launch and then next will follow and the product will be developed and I think this is very often not the case people don't understand it like that and the other thing that is also important that you should have an idea what to do after the launch because our experience showed as well that we are focusing on the delivery and we are focusing on the on the deadline and then of course we have hyper care and you know fixing bugs and then what like no yeah run away exactly right run away run away that's exactly what it happens like everyone nobody knows what to do there's no plan there's a well kind of a backlog but nothing is really prioritized and then that's the problem so think about it before before you launch MVP absolutely and we really I mean to be honest we had a hard time on that there was no plan after the release so we really focused on that one spent a lot of effort there we're quite happy that it went kind of well and then what yeah going to the next features next phase or what's what's planned there and I mean we need to spend really a long time to stabilize and to improve and work on the backlog and all the feedback that came and we weren't really ready to to put new features in and we didn't really set the expectation for that so that was a strong learning curve yes and it influences everything right we because you know it sorry it influences budget it influences planning it influences discussions like if you do the process all over again like imagine MVP first MVP maybe there's a second one right so this is the whole process over again and if you don't do it before you're already too late right so think about it yeah and also empathize on on the long-term benefits yeah I mean MVP is not the third or the final answer or the final solution even not the second one or the third one just always think about okay what was the initial goal or what are the values you would like to to to increase and always talk about this one as well process on one hand on the other hand really like long-term perspective and and show how the progress is in terms of value and stuff so I think this is a very interesting advice and then the last point is yeah keep discussing that keep explaining that and and yeah keep repeating the challenges yeah exactly so it's definitely not a sprint it's a marathon and everyone should be aware of that it takes time it takes yeah condition you know we have to be you have to be fit for that you have to be prepared yeah and then last but not least you know we thought that it would make sense to appoint a minister of foreign project affairs which is actually Thomas at Leica in this person just you know goes on the road show a road show and should expect no excitement actually especially in the first phases right yeah absolutely I mean and this is this is really important not to just focus too much on on all your delivery and any team set up all this kind of things really keep in mind that you have to communicate what you're doing there you have to keep people updated what's what's coming next and stuff like that so really like define somebody and it doesn't only have to be declined it can also be somebody of the team but define somebody who is really taking care about that or maybe a couple of teams team members are doing that but really make this also one priority in your entire process to start this conversation absolutely and it works both ways actually because you also have to have this kind of person internally in the agency right so you have to talk to to the team to you know designer you have to you know be there for them also so that they don't they don't lose their sanity basically at some point right yeah all right then the one how oh you're fine with the time very good yeah so I talked about team like are they independent no they're not and self-organizing is also a very nice concept and in my experience self-organizing teams are just happening after a team is really working for a very long time together if they really like close together then they are kind of in the situation to set up roles by themselves and to find their own structure my recommendation is or our recommendation is provide some leadership provide some structure especially in the beginning of your work on your on your product and on your project and stuff really all this kind of stuff that we what we just mentioned needs some structure ahead so we really need to set this up need to define roles and all those kind of things it's not happening just automatically self-organizing nice ideal but it's not reality and yeah um about success factors of the team and I know we can talk again like other talks and much better talks and youtube tutorials and stuff are around about what makes the team successful and don't want to go too much in detail of that but we thought about and I think it's four aspects that we think are important to make a team successful and we haven't been there in the first place so very beginning this is more like a progress and we still try to improve of all this kind of topics but it's it's having a shared agreement on on the goal and you have to repeat that you always do this in the very first phase but then often months you forget what you actually would like to achieve have a clear understanding of methodology and also have some discussions about it i mean we have seen here like in an mbp it's a different understanding what it is and also like on on certain frameworks or even scrum or all the way you you're you design your process is something everybody understands a bit differently so have those conversations you have metros and so on so clear understanding of methodology is important um accountability make clear roles everybody should know uh what he or she is doing and and responsible for not responsible for so make this clear and um yeah the commitment i think is is a core success faster right yeah and you know we we joined couple of sessions during the Drupal con the last days and there were some sessions on this topic actually and everyone is saying you know um we want to be one team and we want to be the extensions of client's team and this has to be based on trust you know and and commitment and engagement and stuff like that and we're discussing yesterday actually are we there yet like are we are we already there is it even possible like to what extent is it possible actually as a agency team to be you know like that theme so this is this is also like next conversation so maybe we'll do what's next year like how that evolves where we are yeah but definitely you have to be engaged you have to have really strong leadership at least one person on one side these people have to you know bring it forward really because people will be you know working on the task on the on the tickets there will be panic mode now and then so you have to have someone who says saying who looks it's like you know acts like umbrella over over everyone so this this helps a lot and of course accountability accountability will trust basically if you say you do something you do if you don't then just say that as well like like take take responsibility for that be accountable for that search for solutions improve and just just be accountable this is really i think the very important point in this conversation yeah and i think the cool thing is trust and communication all the time so we like to preserve that that trust and then gain that trust especially also when you work together with agency and the client relationship and so on so we like focus on that one and then we think it makes the team successful and yeah is there a secret source for a flawless execution you're asking me yeah i think we should answer this question all together so if you would have put everything in place on the right time and have all the conversation going like before you even start planning most probably this would be a secret source we know how the reality is there's probably not so you have to you know make the best out of you of what you can do with the given resources and time however we've been thinking about it if there is like one thing that really really helps and it's the communication there is actually a study that says that leaders who don't communicate enough they are they are being seen as less empathetic and less you know successful basically right so you know this is also a quote from from Monty Python we stick to the convention so you have to really answer all those questions like what's your name what's your quest like what is the earth speed velocity of an unladen swallow even the questions that you think like why are we asking me this it doesn't make any sense or a question that you have to answer 100 times and the moment when you think if i have to answer this question one more time i will explode this is the moment when the message starts lending actually so really the the over communications brings everyone forward and this i think this is also your experience that you had absolutely absolutely and a colleague of mine actually told me that so please repeat what you're saying and when the first time people just getting annoyed what you told them then the message cut across really i think repeat and repeat and repeat i think this is really important and this is also a great marketing advice by the way so you don't have to you know come up with something new every time just repeat what works you know but it's just this is another story another session right yes so at the end of the day everyone says it as well yeah we're in this together kind of we're in the same boat but it's getting easily forgotten when you run into trouble when you run into some issues along the way so be there for the team be there for others like either on on on your side or my side i hope that if i ask teams working with us internally they would say something nice about the cooperation maybe we should have asked that but you really have to work towards it it doesn't happen overnight this is a process this is hard work this is dedication and engagement from everyone involved in the in the topic in the project and only then it really works i can only agree also from from client side i mean this is something and you should always set the frame like that you're working together and you're winning together and losing together but this is really the reality so if you if you set this value in the very beginning i think this is the right way to go and uh yeah talking about waiting to go yeah last but not least so you know you don't have to love your job but you have to at least enjoy it so i was thinking that the moment that i think oh i have to call thomas again i might think about changing jobs you know you have to you have to you have to enjoy it's not bad at all and no but you have to enjoy it somewhat right so you have to really in order to be engaged in order to be authentic in order to dedicate your time maybe going the extra mile once in a while you know and taking some some some some more um tasks that you that you would have you have to enjoy it right so yeah sometimes we don't know where we're going sometimes we don't know what the outcome will be we obviously don't know what the next year will bring but at least we definitely know that it won't be boring we know that you know that you know that certainly not boring no i i can agree and with all the obstacles and all the challenges you're facing and they will remain my advice is just keep accepting that find smart solution for that but always remember i mean hopefully we together and all of you are the ones that bringing the change that bringing the innovation that try to to do things better so i think it's worth it to face all these challenges to really drive this change and at the end of the day if you want to you know check your relationship with a client you can always ask to come with you exactly ask him to come with you to the drooper call and the whole session together so we're here really works thank you so much it was a pleasure to talk to you and we're hiring you're hiring right yes we're hiring yeah also for our project excellent talk a great start for the day i would say one question i have is regarding prioritization especially you know when you have a big organization from the client side many stakeholders and everybody has a different perspective and different things they consider critical and crucial how do you deal with it and keep everybody happy in the end i can't answer this on a final extent so as i said i think you need to define the values that makes things yeah what is important for business for the brand what are what are the the common understanding of certain values how to prioritize and you really make you maybe you have a discussion before you even start the project about those kind of values so what is that the stuff you would like to achieve what are the brand values what is what is the reason why we have this product and then as i said stick to a certain process and agree on that process make your your business take hold also agreeing on that process are those the values are the methods where how we should decide what is important like like how do we measure business value are there certain business strategic kpis we consider there how about the users is user feedback how we can measure the user feedback how we can take this in consideration like tracking data or stuff like that so really agree on those kind of values you you take to decide what is important and stick to that so i think if you repeat like this is the method on these are the standards how we how we decide um you you do much much easier than just having a completely open discussion all the time but i can tell you it's always a challenge and it's also depending on the organization and the team it's not one method that is in my experience not one method that works all the time you really have to find the right way because you have a different background on on the business side different background within your team different insights you you're able to gain so really this is this is a tough one um yeah and i also think that sometimes it basically helps to to have a conversation that we are on the communication level again right so it's not that we both work together only so we meet on a regular basis we try to involve other stakeholders in some like high level of conversations so that they maybe also get a big picture maybe they will they get input from you know maybe someone from solutions maybe someone from delivery understand some some some processes and consequences and sometimes help to like tweak a little bit like the thinking and you know accepting the the the process and the changes that happen all the way i would say can you give me a little information on the the budget and scope of this and was it a migration was it enough was it a upgrade or can't give you the insides about the budget but it's um it was yeah we we actually put the entire global website of like a camera which is a like we have 15 different languages all over the world and we put this together on a on a centralized platform and one core system of that platform was true power basically the platform also consists of like a commerce solution and like PIM data and stuff like that but it was kind of a migration from an old CMS that's why also we had like a big bank solution to really merge all the content and try to keep the the kind of the the feature set and the content we had on the old website also for the new one which is kind of a tough one um the entire project um i think the implementation was like six to nine months uh the time we talked about this project was like three years to start and have the conversation how we run this and then we just started and then and then we launched it and i think it took another six months to be on a kind of a stable but we do work in an agile way now indeed like also from the budgeting perspective so we we've managed to to get there we set up a retainer not depending on a certain scope just on a team set up and stuff i have a similar question to him i know that you couldn't talk about the budget but maybe about the team members how many team members you had in the project team maybe also from you from the agency side and from you from the client or maybe if you worked like in a um sort of development or web squad or something like that i have a program manager here sitting but i won't be dragging here into this conversation so yeah we tried to keep the team small indeed so we had this crumb master at the beginning then we switched to a project manager or management role because we thought that that makes sense at this point we needed someone to you know keep a bit track of what's what's going on then we um so of course some developers needed and this was changing quite a lot right because we needed different you know different skill sets at different different stages of course qa um and at some point we had the discussion about the product owner right this was because we came to the conclusion that you're being the bottleneck basically or also thomas another colleague there was like everything was running through the same people and we were just running into difficulties that we couldn't work basically so uh you hired a product owner that helped i think a lot to to prioritize to you know come up with with the next steps um yeah but we have the teams quite small i think on both sides what if i can put it like this yeah this this is right and i think what what also brings a bit of a challenge now we have a website that's running so there's operational efforts and and bugs coming in stuff like that on the other hand we have a lot of initiatives to really like bring commerce in and stuff like that so and to handle this with the existing teams also kind of a challenge so we were thinking about maybe setting up a separate development team and so on so um it's always a progress to adjust that's why we're hiring other question thank you um as a technical person in the room i'm curious how you incorporate innovation in your MVP concepts because as a technical person i often struggle to uh translate technical needs sometimes laying foundational architecture of the project in the concept of MVP where we just want big red button or something because we know that the next step will be build something on top of that red button and if we don't have robust foundation and if we don't have innovation from project the project then we will not grow right so maybe it's a question more to your side i only can say the the core uh motivation for for this new website and the new platform was um because we came from a very old infrastructure and and we already had some innovation for building this new platform to designing to take trooper and stuff like that um but yeah being innovative and having enough uh also room to to think about better solution i think is something we always facing as a challenge so so at the very beginning we of course had a solution architect involved and there were lots of conversation how to set up the whole architecture so it's not that we just started with something there was a whole discovery phase to you know find out what's really needed however it's you know it's not an easy question to answer because of the whole also political influences the budget as well right so there are some decisions that you have to what what what tools do you use right there are best of breed tools there may be different tools so this is something that it's really difficult to decide sometimes for the stakeholders that maybe don't have the understanding or the consequences where we run into one of those where maybe the decision was not the best one so we had to work around it and figured out how we can improve um but this is something that we are looking also into right now so the the MVP phase is is done we we're an operational model and we have so many ideas that we also thought let's take a step back let's you know take a look at the whole picture let's think think you really think like dedicate time maybe day maybe two maybe three just sit together and think what's the next next big thing right so the project is going like project i'm sorry the product is being developed yeah um habit so the product is being developed and what's the next big thing because you don't do this in the three months or six maybe this is next year maybe it's the year after right so this is again planning early conversation so we try we'll see where it brings us any other questions at what point did you decide to use Drupal or was it did it come from the product side uh did you know how you wanted to build it or yeah when did you reach that decision i'm not sure because i wasn't involved in that decision to be honest um no i only can tell from what i've heard um it it i think it's two years ago so even before the project we make an evaluation what is what is the best system for us and i think one reason was because it's open source and there's a lot of progress there um it's a very flexible system we have other like interfaces we need to build and stuff like that so we needed really be able to customize everything um costs another reason probably but um i can't really tell you what is this the main core difference compared to other systems because it's quite a while ago and i'm not saying that Drupal is in all aspects the best solutions i mean we have challenges and for example connecting and the PIM system and and make this work all smoothly so um we have challenges but i think was still a great decision for Drupal but so it's just kind of baked in from the beginning yeah okay yeah please come to our booth we may might find out why this decision has been made in the past i think it's it won't be hard to find out but at some point yeah somebody decided that before our time if there are any other questions we are at ffw booth so please come by we will be there let's have a conversation our team is also there and yeah thank you for listening it's 10 o'clock have a great day