 We're gonna dissect the body language of Michael beaver as he's being interrogated. He and his brother killed his family and Greg tell us about the videos we're gonna watch Yeah, this is a great interrogation. Those of you who like the interrogation room are gonna really appreciate it Michael and his brother Robert are serving life sentences for the murder of five family members Michael was 16 that you'll see in here and Robert was 18 these guys killed their family between 1140 and 1220 and if Short time later we're captured in the woods behind the house and this interrogation occurs within hours Well Man, I'm you know, I'm just kind of got thrown into this So I was hoping maybe you could kind of just go back at the beginning When all this started and kind of tell me what happened because I need I need kind of the details So we know and understand what what you went through and stuff. Okay, so they always start Two months ago. Okay, it's when we first Let's start talking. So when you say we are you talking about me? I love you. I was also your brother. Yeah, who's it has to do with it. What's his name? Robert, okay, and how old is he? 18. Okay. All right. Go ahead. Sorry a couple months ago I think it actually started together. We started talking about a Voodoo and hatred stuff like that. Okay, I didn't take it seriously at first, but then he started buying like Body armor and stuff We're gonna eat by body armor from eBay and Amazon. Oh, okay Have a job. He didn't have my tech you quit. So there you go Oh Basically, it just kept escalating. He kept getting burned and he asked if I wanted any I said yes So that'd be my own set. Oh, okay, and then About a month June 30th is when he came to me and say found out that he can legally buy guns without room It'll go home. Okay, and that's what I'm planning All right, Greg, what do you got? So I usually talk about microcultures as being something very finite like two people and I started talking about that 20 years ago Or so when I wrote a book and I talked about microcultures all the way to macro culture We're gonna talk about two microcultures in today's in today's Show because we're gonna talk about a microculture between these two dirtbag kids that kill their family who fed each other and fed each other and fed each other and turned into something horrible and an emerging microculture between the interrogator and the source the prisoner and it has to be a microculture because you have to build enough reported transfer information This guy is going to a great job. We're gonna start watching him He just finished intake process meaning he's done all this paperwork signed all of his release and now this detective does the Classic, I'm new you're gonna have to help me out. What's this kid? His respiration increases him immediately I chase you always talking I think it's hard for people sometimes to envision that when you're talking about breathing in your stomach Your whole body is opening up as you get more and more apprehensive your rib cage gets to be an iron cage That prevents you from breathing as your diaphragm rises higher and that's due to fight or flight And we'll see it happen and what you then are doing is breathing in the tops of your lungs only and you'll hear him occasionally go Because he's got to push all that co2 out so he can breathe again And it's really cool to watch because you get a really good job of it one of my favorite things We've heard in any interrogation ever is when this kid says we he does interrogator 101 when you say we what do you mean? Don't leave anything on the table This guy does a great job and you watch this kid does a sudden arm change when he feels threatened That's not the comfortable relaxed arms across your body. That is a very very sudden change anytime you got change We know there's something going on It's thought we were not talking about an absolute than somebody crosses their body like this It means that they're locking you out But when they suddenly do it under duress or under questioning then you find out listen to his words I'm always a fan of source leads. What he emphasizes is stuff Stuff Listen, we're gonna hear it over and over and there's gonna be keys to his story You could poke and say did body armor get you in and give him a give him an opportunity also says my own set He's everything he's pointing out our things are important to him And you can see him also doing some when he started talking about planning You can see his adapting, you know, he's touching his face and then the expression in his face goes to disapproval or distaste and You just watch him because he does a whole lot of barrier. He's gonna change things He says suddenly doing and and then he his barriers increase He starts to adapt his word pattern shift This guy's gonna be cleanly aware of this because he's doing something I call cold source leading every one of those things He's making note of mentally you can watch him and maybe even writing it down So that he can come back to it later Scott would have gotten all right Yeah, this is the perfect placement of a suspect and interrogator They're not across the table from each other the detective isn't too close He's not too far away. He's just a little bit out of range of touching But I'm sure the kids leg is close to a freaking pediment like leg if he needs to but if he needs to he'll work toward that and get over There when it comes time to close if that moment arrives and I think it's a great opening like you were saying Greg it bummed me out because you got the Stuff part he said I just got thrown into this We I need to know what you went through and what you went through and stuff He's saying I need to know what you went through He's identified trying to identify with this kid and get him to to identify with him He's gonna start matching and mirroring to a high level here in a couple minutes and he gets rapport Right out of the gate with this kid So he and he approaches this thing like a conversation and he slides into the matching and mirroring with his voice tone his cadence his the words he's using obviously is vernacular and and his Volume how loud he's talking so we'll watch this develop and he'll almost morph into a mirror of this kid as he goes through This is how you should do it. That's the best example. I've ever seen of somebody who who Instantly become begins Matching and mirroring someone else. Everybody says oh, it's all about mirroring The matching part is when you start sounding like that person you start using the same vernacular They're using to use the volume the cadence same thing you match all those things and you mirror their body language That's the key and you get both of those together you create rapport instantly when that happens It's and it's a powerful potent tool. This is the this is the I think that's the best We've we've seen on here so far of somebody instantly getting in getting that kid's attention Because you're right Greg. He gets worked up. He start but which he would be in that case if he's not a psychopath So that that's one cue we see an emotion there We see a most it's stress so we can we can add it to that but still it looks to me like an emotional stress in there He's stressed because of what he's been through and then for for what's happening to him now I don't think he's worried about what's happened, but we'll talk about that More in a few minutes chase. What do you got? Yeah, I agree with y'all. This is one of the probably I would say top 1% interiators that we've ever seen and I say that not because of the what he's eliciting from the suspect I don't go off of the behavior of the suspect I'm going off of just his behavior and how he's conducting the interview so Having a suspect willing to walk in there and just talk about everything It doesn't make you a good interrogator how you behave does and we're seeing that here very very good and one thing that I teach in interrogation is Very early in the conversation. You want that person to start responding to incomplete sentences So an example of this the interiator could have said and by we you mean and Just leave it off dim completing Incomplete sentences is a rapid rapport builder as well and it helps him to be more open He's at 90 degrees, which is a great angle to be at like Scott Greg You'll cover that and he makes that admission I just got thrown into this an admission of naivete lacking knowledge makes it easier to ask questions and Separate some self from the investigators who are working on this who are like really filled in on the case Orange juice on the table is probably a bad idea You can see that there's like some orange juice on the table there There's several studies that show having somebody in an interrogation room In what's called a glucose deficit Makes them extremely more suggestible and likely to tell the truth or to confess and hopefully those Are the same things and in the study they call this a measure of interrogative Suggestibility and glucose deficit plays a huge part of that So these are called baseline questions. They serve three functions. I want to enhance compliance number one I'm getting them to comply. I ask you answer. They build rapport number two and number three It's an opportunity to measure some baseline. So his baseline here is calm He's controlled and his gestures on the table as he's talking I'm talking about the kid here, which we all call illustrators and their time to his speech His breathing rate is already up. It's into his chest So it might be hard to include that in some future analysis, but we'll continue to keep looking at it His blink rates pretty normal. So we know this will be a good indicator if we see it spike in the future and his crossing his arms is a Change but I haven't seen the whole video. I'm just seeing him do this in one video It's not a big enough change for me. Just looking at this one video to mean anything whatsoever So it could be freezing cold in the room or this could be some baseline thing that he does if you see arm arm crossing Always look at the hands which we see here are relaxed and very natural with with the arm cross. That's all I got I'll give it a shot. Oh Yeah Listen chase if the orange juice is going to improve his glucose I don't think it's got round to his hands yet because they are pretty Flaccid at the moment. There's no big line of energy now We will later on see those hands those arms become more shall we say turgid but at the moment They're really flaccid and they're asymmetrical as well Which means one hand is I said the word flaccid and Scott's already gone can't help himself He's thinking of something. I don't know what he's thinking of the other word It's the other word that got me, but it but it might be rude. I don't know so so There we go. It is rude So look, he's he's asymmetrical and so and so that could mean There's a conflict going on. We'll see him be more symmetrical and more action with his gestures later on. So that's worth remembering Hi, hi breathing. Yes and lots of big outbreath which suggests to me He's gonna run out of oxygen very very soon He's trying to deal with the carbon dioxide that's building up from that fight and flight doing big out breaths But no big in breaths at the belly. So he's gonna run run out of oxygen at some point. So at the moment There's a conflict. He's asymmetrical his gestures are Soft and flaccid which means that he's lacking in energy. So is this deceit? Well, no, it's probably more likely defeat at this point. He's already straight into this Situation and he already seems to me Relatively defeated by what's going on and why wouldn't he be it's it's it probably looked fairly bad for him out at the scene I would imagine So and there's probably getting no way getting past that and we'll see how this interview this interrogation Kind of lines up as we go along in exactly What these people are looking for which is not necessarily did he do it that how many did he do It's probably the case Greg. What do you thought mark? I think he had an encounter with Rin 10 10 on the way as well I don't think that probably made him any more relaxed and countering a police dog, right, right? It's that way he's got the the medical. He's had some medical attention. Not sure but he talks about the dog in the interviews So yeah, okay, so it was Maybe the dog did the dog go for his go for chase, where would the dog go for elbow arm anything that's close to it Whatever's dangling, right? Yeah, thanks. It was his right arm. I did. This is right arm. Let's see what that does Well Man, I'm you know, I'm just kind of got thrown into this So I was hoping maybe you could kind of just go back at the beginning When all this started and kind of tell me what happened because I need I need kind of the details So we know and understand what what you went through and stuff Okay, they're very stuff Okay, about like two months ago. Okay, it's when you first Let's start talking. So when you say we who are you talking about me? I might be other So you're a brother. Yeah, who's he has to know what's his name? Robert, okay, and how old is he? 18. Okay. All right, go ahead. Sorry a couple months ago. I think we're going to study. Yeah, we started talking about a Voodoo and a page and stuff like that. Okay, I didn't take it seriously first, but then he started buying like a Body armor and stuff We're gonna eat by body armor from eBay and Amazon. Oh, okay Legal he have a job. He didn't have my tech you quit. So there you go Oh And basically it just kept escalating he kept getting blown didn't he asked if I wanted any essay guess So that'd be my own set. Oh, okay, and then about a month Like June 30th is when he came to me and say found out that he can legally buy guns without room in a club Okay, and that's what I'm planning So let's go back real quick We're talking about the ammunition being delivered Making plans telling you more about making plans and what you guys talked about making plans. We are Plotted every night and I started as we were actually going to do this thing on the second night So I started getting ready When was that you used to second night? Okay That's when you started making the plan. Yeah, that's we found out you could buy guns We I see did you guys draw make drawings or write things down or I think he had a journal It was amazing. I think it's down. I think it's under his bed under his bed is it like a Like a journal like a no pad. Yeah, it's like a second point book Okay, I think it's like a little case. So you think you wrote stuff in there. Yeah, thank you So then the second day you said that's when you realized that it might actually happen. Yeah, what made you go like that? I was telling you see guys. I mean he was one of you He started you start playing on taking off his money. Yeah, there's a bank and Theory the way stuff the way all this stuff. So, you know, why did you want to do that? Yeah? Well, mainly two reasons I think it's um because he just like says he hates everyone he thinks society's pointless and so People yeah, so he wanted to like beat Kill Like amount of other famous people like calling behind the name to Jim C. Connors Okay, did you kind of feel that way too like when you guys were talking earlier like yeah? Like do you have a problem with society too? Do you think? Not just or you're just more like the the number of people getting killed was kind of interesting and yeah, I want exciting okay so because you mentioned a couple names of Are those like serial killers or something what like home line? Yeah I would call him back me changing at most games. He can almost as a guy that shot it for theater in Colorado Yeah, he killed 12 and so I don't know How many were killed in calling by calling by 15? Okay? I think All right, Chase, what do you got? So he's you'll see him picking at this bandage that's around his arm that stuff is called coflex That's pretty normal for people to do. He may have gotten his blood drawn on the way in to see if he was under the influence That looks like what that is. It's not really it doesn't look like enough to be a bandage I don't know but He's suggesting very gently suggesting the older brother is the mastermind here The detective is helping him to do that and he refers to the Other murderers as famous. He doesn't call them famous murderers or anything else It's just famous. They're famous people Which is super weird and they were made famous by the society that he just said is useless So there's a bit of irony here Which I hope Mark will talk about this mark when he talks about irony. There's Disney movies coming in There's the Hobbit. You never know you never know what you hear. I'll do my best So this is one of the best interrogators. I've seen in a very long time. I don't say this based on the person The suspect but his composure in the way that he's so brilliant on the basics He's brilliant at the basics of interrogation And if you're watching this, we'd love to have you on the show with us to chat about this if you'd like We're seeing pretty open behavior and we're seeing him grab on to suggestions that the interrogators putting forth to subtly Suggest this was wholly somebody else's idea and somebody else's planning Listen to the softening words the interrogators using like maybe and kind of sort of just All of those are softening words to help him bite down on to this idea Scott. We got All right. Yeah, I agree with you And I thought it was a more of a bandage situation because we get your blood drawn in a little thing thinner than that So I get mine done and it's like the old thin thing Had a lab they use thin ones, but hospitals carry the thicker co-flex No, okay a lot more Okay I don't know. All right. Well the kid adapts As the and the interrogator adapts and the kids are already following him He's he's following the interrogator when he did when he moves the kid moves and he does those things That's the very first thing we see coming into this one And you don't have to keep in mind when you're you're mirroring somebody you imagine someone You don't have to do the exact same thing and you'll notice that a lot because when the kid gets stressed Sometimes he'll squeeze his hand real big and the guy will go to his face or he'll he'll rub right here to show the kid He's stressed to put that in the in his head because he's trying to make him feel like he feels like the kid feels And that's really important here and he's trying to get him to open up And we're gonna see that we're gonna see that work very well here This I think is a textbook example actually of matching and mirroring They've both got their armed arm on the table when when the kid puts his on the cop puts his on Or the detective puts his on and their arms crossed in front of them beautiful execution on all that Then after this he'll move to mirroring his breathing because the kids breathing gets a little bit odd in there And you'll watch the detective his does too when the kids size real big a hillside too And then put his hand to his face and do that He's showing him that he feels the same stress he showed that he's feeling now This may not seem important, but he's executing perfectly one of the most potent tools You can possibly do mark talks about the breathing in and out in matching the breathing as well all the time Because that will when someone is in the hospital and a doctor wants to try to calm them down The doctor will start, you know, the guys who know about it or women who know about it They'll start breathing at the same rate the patient's breathing and that helps you calm down I don't know why that is but that's what happens But I've done the things this guy's doing he's talking to him trying to act like those things I've done this before with it with a kid I was talking to and this this works because I think this kid may not have had a father figure That was cool with him or nice to him So he needs that so he needs an older person to him that he's you know Talking to him in the fashion he is I'll get into details later on as we go through this Just get the kid starts scratching his eye and rubs his eye and the Detective does the same thing It's not the exact same thing, but he gets really close and does it So that's that's really important and you start hearing that rhythm as they talk back and forth it's really easy to talk to someone and You'll talk for a minute and then there'll be that little pause and then they'll say something you'll talk right back He's waiting to get that rhythm going so it's almost like a ping-pong thing going back and forth So he's matching him with with his vernacular in his words and his tone and his cadence and he's mirroring his body language He's mirroring his breathing and he's got that ping-pong with the conversation going back and forth It's real. He may not even know he's doing this. That's the thing about he may be so good He may not even realize that's what he's doing, but he's connected with that kid And that's why we're gonna hear this the kids are talking and talking and talking mark. What do you got? Yes, they're talking about my microcultures Greg There are times when I just can't work out what this subject is saying I don't understand the microculture of the but I did pick up this thing It's like a blank book and he then becomes very energized in symmetry with his gestures And he also illustrates that book. He shows us the book Essentially, I think he tells us it's under the under the bed I could be wrong because I find it sometimes very hard to work out what he's saying But it's interesting because suddenly his gestures Stop being flaccid they start to become Energized they go into symmetry he illustrates or kind of mimes for us perfectly this book so Very probably the book exists He very probably it is under the bed and very probably even if the book doesn't exist He wants us to think and know that a book exists because I think he wants to wants to suggest There is some evidence out there that says he's not fully involved and somebody else is absolutely and most fully Involved in this and he's seen an opportunity to really put that across and illustrate that so That for me is a massive difference from how he started out Which was asymmetrical and these kind of floppy gestures this defeat suddenly becomes something More more of a celebration now You know, it's interesting that he Talks about essentially the interviewer here for me feeds him the idea of that it's not about society It's about numbers now. I don't know whether there's been some conversation Beforehand or some information around that this isn't about a social grudge of any sort But the interviewer seems to be putting this Feed the idea to him that it's not about society. It's about the numbers It's interesting that the society the grudge against society would would be more kind of tropic of of Of sociopathic or even psychopathic. You imagine those extreme You know, tattoo versions of the psychopath. They've got some, you know, massive crazy grudge against against society You know at the moment everybody's trying to move away From that and go it's just kind of a numbers game. You just want to get either status around that or You know, uh, you like counting numbers. You're like collecting Things interesting interesting idea. Let's see where that Goes into uh chase. What are you going on this one? Do they go? Oh, maybe you did, uh, Scott No, Greg Mark you hit I'm going to go to the very last thing I have here first and then go backward because you said something that is key Many years ago when I was dealing with people in interrogating I remember one of the most interesting things I've ever learned a guy actually saying well If I killed a bunch of people and did something in terrorist activity People will remember my name if I just worked the rest of my life. They won't That's a different mindset and a different way of being killing 50 people putting you at the beginning And you have to be able to get into that psyche to be able to talk to that guy Now let's back up a minute because I look the way I look because I have a blank stare People probably think I'm an aggressive all the time in terrogator not true at all Actually, I'm the other way I believe that you have to get the person calm down Enough to be able to build rapport so that you can actually do what we do the skill set Of terrifying somebody isn't is the captor's job. Not mine My job is to do something else now if I'm captor different story and I've captured a lot of people in my life Overdoing things both In real war and in training and the training trust me You wouldn't think it was training the way it was carried out So I've seen hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people react One of the things we know is that when a person's brain is Consumed by terror and fear number one they can't remember number two They're going to say whatever you want to hear and number three nothing is reliable So it's a waste of time at that moment The other interesting thing is the human brain prioritizes input and stimulus when it's in terror One of the best things we know is this kid is not in terror now This guy has managed through what he's done to calm him just a bit so he can start building rapport And you know how you know that he's playing with that bandage He wouldn't he wouldn't notice that bandage on his arm if he were in sheer terror because it's not a threat And a great example One of the things when you're captured often people don't realize their bladder is full until 15 minutes after they're captured Then they'll start begging for the bathroom You know that their flight or flight is starting to tone down and you can go over and talk to them then And you can start to get some control. You're also giving them relief So there's a lot of things that go into play here Watch this kid This guy's been so good that this kid becomes non confrontational and non judge He can seize non judgmental. So he opens up. Look at his body language mark exactly what you said He asked him a question about a book He accesses over. Hey, he's remembering this book Then he starts defining the book with his hands And I think this kid is opening up because he thinks now He doesn't yet feel any connection to this guy so that he feels like he's embarrassed to tell him what he did That's a beautiful place to be once you get to a point where the person's embarrassed Now you lose some ability to get information out of him. He's not there yet. He still feels like it's okay to talk this way We'll watch that change through these videos When he's doing this it's likely his first Idea of awareness of what's going on and he's comforting himself. We all said that and I agree with you chase It could be kovat. Oh, I mean i'm co-band over a um over a piece of Gals it could be because scraped is that what who knows but I do agree with you. It's it's some co-band stuff He does stuff Stuff again, so he's emphasizing stuff when he says something which probably means that means something to him We gave our stuff away. So the game is over. We're done. He does some emotional accessing and touches his face Now this interrogation thing as you start paying attention You got to get to see what a good interrogator does He's trying to disarm the guy bring him down to a comfort level Freeing enough for poor the guy feels safe talking to him and just wait and watch what he does to him later This is this is the easy part Waiting for him to calm in but knowing when and how to talk to the kid So the kid starts to feel you and you can say hey man, I get it I it's better to do this than sitting in your house and nobody know who you are And you can see he's not judging He's doing all that other stuff that you guys are talking about Agree with you guys 100% and the last thing you see is this kid I work with new yorkers all the time and new yorkers will have a tendency to talk at the same time Pretty common. This kid's doing that with non verbals. He's going And confirming the guy's question before the guy finishes chase exactly to your point He's being trained how to respond and he's doing it quickly So let's go back real quick We're talking about the ammunition being delivered Making plans. Tell me more about making plans and what you guys talked about Making plans, we are plodding every minute And I started by as we were actually going to do this thing on the second night And so I started getting ready When was that? You used the second night? What do you mean? July 1st Okay Because we started shooting That's when you started making the plan? Yeah, that's what we found out if you could buy it constantly I see. Did you guys draw make drawings or write things down? I think you had a journal. Basically, I think it was down. I think it's under his bed Under his bed? I don't check that out Is it like a journal? Like a no pad or a book? Yeah, it's like a second point book Okay I think it's like a little case So you think he wrote stuff in there? Yeah, I think he was planning it So then the second day you said that's when you realized that it might actually happen What made you go like that? How serious he was? I mean, he was one of you He started, he started planning on taking all of his money out of his bank and Theoring away stuff Theoring away all this stuff. So you know Why did he want to do that? That killed people? Yeah Well, mainly two of these and I think it's um because he just like says he hates Every money thing society is pointless and so People so he wanted to like beat Beat the kill Like amount of other famous people like calling behind the night to jam seeking homes Okay Did you kind of feel that way too? Like when you guys were talking earlier like Yeah It like do you have a problem with society too? Do you think? Not just Or you're just more like the the number of people getting killed was kind of interesting and Exciting. Yeah, okay So Because you mentioned a couple names of are those like serial killers or something. Well, like halloween. Yeah I would call him back me changing. James. He could know this is a Guy that shot at theater in colorado. Yeah, he killed 12 things. I don't know How many were killing calling by calling by like 15? Okay, I think Um Okay So then kind of what happened is I mean you guys started getting all that stuff together and you know throwing things away Yeah, and we knew that all the packages and the whole stew salad bars all that stuff It's going to get coffee matters on And so we said to date So was the plan um To use the knives at first on the family Because the guns weren't going to be here until later on. Yeah, the guns would be too loud. Oh, I see. So Going to use the knives on the family, which obviously did not get explained Yeah, I think uh Yeah, uh, oh, I just sold them right. So it's why now like we didn't quote more people of it Yeah So then you picked a date you said, yeah, which was yesterday Yesterday night time is the date. Did you pick a time everything? Yep. Yeah, midnight when you were sitting with everyone Wasn't that it's over mom. So how did you guys know you just came and got you or you got him? Or would you be able to do it? We were hanging out. Yeah, that's who I'm waiting. Okay. And so how'd you pick the date? Um, they involved a number of packages and stuff would be help because you know all the ammunition He didn't want them to see that so he killed him the day before the ammunition Okay, help the day after we didn't leave to you guys And um, do you guys not like your mom and dad? I mean, is there a what are they? I mean, I'm most teenagers don't like their parents. So I can understand that. Yeah, I mean mom's okay, but that was a little bit Just a little bit too much So you guys wait in the room And was it right when midnight and that's when things started? I didn't midnight. Um My sister She came in because she's getting into her bed. She came in to tell us Oh Okay, she came in to tell us they had one like this it's kitchen done for we went to bed and put the cats up And it's basically I did what we planned. I did I uh, I got to my desk and this like how to look at something to this get to go out but went up to Grab to it All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, here's another emphatic exhale when he says Set a date He's very emphatic about it. I think this is part of their whole plan But he's when you listen to him when he's talking about the people there's no emotion at all no emotional eye accessing Nothing, I don't think we're seeing any feeling for these people. He shows stress all that eye rubbing There doesn't appear to be any remorse sadness or anything about how he's perceived in this room yet We'll see that change but right now he's just talking like this is a video game His chin's down. He's got restricted breathing And then you start to see how squares rib cage turns into as he starts to feel some kind of Some kind of remorse in there And when they asked the probably the best single piece of body language to now that I see in this entire thing Isn't to ask a question about parents There is absolute contempt in this kid's face when he's talking about parents And then the only the only in my opinion emotional eye accessing we really see is when he's talking about his perception of them And he also says something about his sister and she came in to tell us That's another aggressive thing pushed out of his mouth with a lot of strength When I say a source lead when you're talking to a criminal prisoner An intel source and they bring up something with a lot of emphatic behavior We call that a source lead because we know that needs to be exploited and there are two kinds hot and cold A hot one means I go at it right now a cold one means I put it off and bring it back up later I would call that one a hot lead. I would ask a question But he's good and masterful at not angering this guy and I think Either way would have worked this kids is starting to bond to him now and that's an important part chase what you got Yeah, so the the behavior we're seeing throughout this is Pretty abnormal and from what I've been able to learn they dealt with extreme isolation and Potentially some abuse they were kept inside They lacked a lot of social skills and social connections with people in the real world And at this age Boys are struggling hard with identity and impulsivity and they have testosterone levels that are just through the roof And we could also be seeing What he sees as an authority in his older brother and this was likely a factor no matter what else we see And being psychologically vulnerable at that at that age with that state like that and not being connected Which could come from any number of disorders abuse neglect and even genetic factors It does one major huge thing to kids at this age It makes them seek extreme solutions to simple problems And this causes a lack of empathy and understanding that makes doing the crime Like this a lot easier. I'm not going to comment on the clip here. I heard some Negative stuff being discussed in it while we were watching this morning. So I didn't didn't do that But I will say I'm not really sure why people get so obsessed with the Our culture Anyway is obsessed with the checklist and diagnoses And if we're witnessing psychopathic behavior, we can call it psychopathic behavior because it is psychopathic behavior There's a there's a weird trend in our culture where we need to find labels and checklists As if it as if all of us fit into some kind of excel spreadsheet somewhere people are all different And I think it's a critical oversight that really undermines our understanding of psychopathy and it favors Uh this simplistic flawed labeling system that gives us a placebo Of feeling like we understand something about the messy truth of just human life in general The psychopath checklist is a model and as mark says All the time all models are useful or all models are wrong Some models are useful mark. What do you got? Yeah, couldn't agree more so Greg to your stuff Yes, you're absolutely right. We then get data and we also get planned And us And so, you know, it's interesting how we're getting a lot of stress there around some of these mundane things of Of what and where and when we are getting some people but the people tend to be us And uh, so it's sort of things events not so much people and feelings And so we could you know, we could put that on a continuous spectrum of neurotype and and and behavior along with actually those Phonic stresses that we're getting not that there's that I've seen a study on this but as a a data point of I'd say Five on my part seeing in a certain neurotype that stressing on certain phonems where where Usually you wouldn't get those stresses there. So that's just of interest to me I'm making no absolutely no diagnosis or prediction around that just for me. I went. Hmm at that That stress somewhere before Uh, anyway interest you say chase. It's it's it's messy. It's muddy. It's real life It's not film or tv which isn't messy or muddy. The great thing about film and tv Is it's not a crossword puzzle. You you should be able to get it right You sit down you watch it you get fed it and you go, uh, and I see what's happening here um I even dislike those kind of who done it things because I'm like Can you just just tell me who did it and let's get on with it? I'd like I that's why that's why colombo is so good They give it to you in the front and then Work back right which is so different from real life where you don't know up front And you don't know during it and you often you get right to the end of it real life And you're like what happened there have zero idea What went on what went on there and I think you know As I've said before when when confronted With this not knowing you go you either you either you're either happy with that Or you get really angry and upset that you don't know or you make up a whole bunch of stories And I think you know some of these models chase are great stories for people to jump on top of and go Well, okay, let's put them in in this box This story of sociopath or psychopath or this or that or you know, whatever you want to Whatever you want to bundle people into look nothing wrong with that just so long as you go. Okay, it's possible. It's probable Anyway, everybody wants a simple checklist for a monster though I agree with you and the thing is like you were saying chase They'll see this guy and think automatically around the gate. How cool. How could you do that if you weren't? A psychopath that's the thing It sometimes it takes a year to diagnose somebody being a site a true psychopath the clinical psychopath So you can't just call it out of the gate. That's that's a I'm glad so glad you said that because it gets on my last nerve No, no He's a killer doesn't matter what brand the killer is. He killed his family Yeah, and speaking of colombo Speaking of colombo The other day when I was coming back from our when we come back from dallas, right and I've told greg this already So anyway, this woman sat next to me. She's from phoenix denise Hi, denise. I know you're watching because we talked about this didn't denise and I talked for a while and I really wanted to watch colombo right because I downloaded that from uh That that channel um watch it for days and saw all these colombo episodes and scroll goes through She tells you all who all the actors are what was going on in peter fox life at the time all the it's fantastic And I watch all them So I finally got to where I could disengage from the conversation I had my iPad up got it out and so I saw a lot of movement over here with her And we're getting really close as getting really bumpy really bumpy And it wasn't the bump the roughest I've been on we've all been on those planes that everybody else gets horrified And we don't they're like, why aren't you scared like is this thing going to crash the odds are in our favor So anyway You know they I'm sure they said, you know, um When I saw everybody putting their things up So I always put my iPad down then I put it down near my lap and I flip it back up So I can watch it and continue watching whatever I'm watching on that guy So we land right and I'm sitting there watching colombo and as we land I catch out of the corner of my eye. She still moves around a lot and she starts doing this catholic cross thing, right? And I'm like, so I take off my headphones. I'm like, darling, what's going on with you? What's happening? She goes the engine. I'm just glad the engine worked and I'm like, yeah, you know Why, you know, why wouldn't the engine work? You know, obviously these planes are great, you know, they're built to To, you know, take off land and go through a lot of stuff storm She said Did you not hear what the pilot said? I said What are you talking about? She said you didn't hear that. I said, no, I didn't hear it. What do you say it? She said our engine wasn't working. We had one coming in I said, what are you talking about? I looked around everybody else's like Crying and holding things and talking and praying and all kinds of stuff. I looked out the window And the ambulance is the fire trucks all that stuff's out there. We're just sitting there waiting So Boeing or airbus now is airbus So, you know why you know why that happens Scott because you're talking smack about helicopters just before that. Yeah That's right That could have been could have been but I went to that halt at the at the luggage thing people were hugging They've met friends for life and all that, you know Said I missed the whole thing watching colombo chase. It's not that you and I are saying that bowing have bad aircraft I mean, I would be careful. I just no that's why I would just like to say That I think bowing have have very good aircraft and I'm always very happy to uh, to uh, I've I've got my Don't shoot me bowing card as well. So I'm okay. Just so everybody knows We should do that video Doesn't get shot the guy who Yeah, I'm Suicided. Yeah. Yes Yeah, that's interesting Yeah, so that we can back up that it was nothing to do with bowing There you go. We'll we'll put that one up. We'll give you a video this week. They were involved in any way Okay So then kind of what happened is I mean you guys started getting all that stuff together and You know throwing things away. Yeah, and we do that all the packages and the whole stew is out of bars All that stuff is going to get healthy matters on And so we set it eight So was the plan um To use the knives at first on the family It's nice because the guns weren't going to be here till later on. Yeah, I think that would be too loud Oh, I see. So I'm going to use the knives on the family, which obviously did not go as planned Yeah, thank god Yeah, uh, oh, I just sold them right. So it's right now like Yeah Um So then You picked the date you said, yeah, which was yesterday yesterday night. I missed the date Did you pick the time and everything? Yeah, yeah, midnight when you were sitting most everyone was in bed So how did you guys know do you just came and got you or you got him or would you be able to do it? We were hanging out. Yeah, that's who I'm waiting. Okay. And so how'd you pick the date? Um, they involved a number of packages and stuff would we have because you know all the ammunition He didn't want them to see that so we killed him the day before the ammunition. Okay, I hope the day after we didn't leave to you guys and Do you guys not like your mom and dad? I mean, is there a what are they? I mean, I'm most teenagers don't like their parents. So I can understand that. Yeah, I mean mom's okay, but that was a little bit Just a little bit too much So you guys wait in the room And was it right when midnight and that's when things started? I didn't midnight. Um My sister She came in because she's getting into her bed. She came in to tell us Oh Okay, she came in to tell us they had one like this kitchen down for we went to bed and put the cats up And basically I did what we planned I did I I got to my desk And this like had to look at something to this get to go out but went up to Glad to slip with you I went over disabled the alarm. Okay. That's what I did. And then where's the the pad for your alarm? It's not for you. It's what it's now the front door. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm disabled the alarm. So You know, but has she already gone outside? She went outside and rubbed my taff to her So where where did she she she was playing the tag way and he to go over back from You know the bench and off we are good I'm sorry choking home Out front Yeah, I was a little bitch and he threw a bitch on her and went back inside to go after the little kids Did you bring her in or did she stay out? She stayed out until he had to move me in when I went out there to go inside. That's why she's saying the um You're thinking to get ready So she brought her back. Yeah, she's still alive. Yeah, she was still screaming and then that's about the time Dad came down Okay, because he's written some stuff and he went back and boys having a little bit of this Boys that's what they call it. I'm over Um, when they start attacking there, they got a little bit of fight. Um, but they eventually Well got him down, you know, I think he killed him. Did he cut his throat too? Um Where did that happen in your room and Uh Where were you? I was standing in the hallway. Okay. So did you see him cut your best throat? Did he stab him in other places too? I don't know. I think he just went for the fuel All right, mark. Where do you got? Yeah, look very simply. I find him casual and nonchalant in his behavior around the killings Yet at the same time There's a lot of asymmetry. There's a lot of eye blocks the lines of energy are broken It's kind of there's a sense of defeat. His breathing is high. There's some closure that happens around the mouth over areas So my My guess would be at this point that he isn't happy about being in this in this, um Interview and and that seems to fit You know, why would anybody be overjoyed and confident about being in this interview situation? Yet at the same time there isn't So much level of stress around The the killings casual nonchalant. I find that you know A an interesting juxtaposition Though at the same time Not not not odd that that it's a little bit messy around somebody who's clearly got so messy Around a bunch of people we couldn't expect. I mean should we expect anything kind of deducible by this an ordinary around any of this it would be interesting wouldn't it if you had if you had somebody who can Go out to kill this many people And we're like, yeah, that's very that's very ordinary behavior. That's very uh, of course, you know, that's just what we do every day Yeah, we should be seeing something which is probably difficult To explain a little bit more than a little bit muddy and a little bit odd seems muddy and odd to me But why not chase what have you gone this one? Yeah, I agree But let's let's talk about why you're seeing him act so calmly during this interview with the officer here There's a few reasons that this could be happening And I won't pretend that I know which ones are true and which are not Uh, if this is psychopathy forget about the checklist, um, but we are seeing somebody who has a total absence of guilt and remorse The second if the shooting was planned For months or weeks this experience of being arrested and interrogated was expected Land on and anticipated. So there's no fear because the future is certain Fear comes from uncertain future If you think about that, that's what happens there and he's not trying to deceive anybody necessarily He may be trying to minimize a bunch of stuff, but he's not making up a ton of lies and fabricating an entire event The third reason could be shock and dissociation that could be going on. It's a psychological defense mechanism that helps people cope with uh, some seriously overwhelming emotions just by detaching or unplugging us From reality. So dissociation manifests as outward calmness even if the person is experiencing lots of Internal stuff going on. That's all I got there. Yeah, great. What do you got? Yeah. Yeah, great I love both what you said. I agree 100 and what we're seeing here in my opinion is Yes, you can dissociate from the actual killing and all that because you prepared for it And you know, you got a box in your head for it What I think he's having a hard time and mark what I think you're seeing is he's having a difficult time with the other part Now he's starting to bond to this guy and he doesn't want to disappoint this guy This guy may be a father figure who knows I don't I can't speak to that part But you can see in a bunch of many interrogations where a person's done something and they'll tell you they've done it But when he gets down to nitty gritty, they don't feel guilty about what they've done But they don't want you disappointed with them They don't want your judgment and this guy's not been judgmental to now and there may be part of that occurring So that for me is really interesting because it means the bonding is taking place very effectively And I think scott you said it earlier all that matching and mirroring has been powerful And the kid is not being judged and if he feels like he's not being judged But there's potential to be judged Then that creates a kind of fear that will Show itself here. So for example, all this In congruent in congruent movement and all that mark that he's showing. I think that's what it's about I don't think it's the other way I think he doesn't care about what he's already done and chase to your point Dissociation would give him the ability to compartmentalize that but this stuff He can't because we see while he's gotten no emotion at all. You see that respiration increase Like you would expect that the talking about killing your mother would do that not the other way And listen to him when he says about the mother Yeah, she was an entryway almost like saying, hey, I left my bike in the rack in front of school that casually But he's certainly feeling some anxiety about something What I was referring to is the dissociation from trauma and dissociation being a trauma response Yeah, for sure. And that's what I'm saying is I agree with you That dissociation is related to the actual act But that doesn't protect him from this from being afraid of letting somebody so I agree with 100% I think he probably was all ready for that And the dissociation compartmentalized and pushed that away But he's not ready to disappoint this guy who's just been friendly to him And just mean that there's a potential for him to be in a dissociative state at present at present Oh, for sure. For sure. Yeah Sorry So on the replay of this when you go back and you subscribe Watch their hands and mouths. They do the exact same thing almost perfectly. They're met. They're matching and marrying each other Perfectly. They're both rubbing their fingers at the same time all that Listen for that rhythm again for that with the conversation going back and forth You're seeing two people locked in you're seeing this this interrogator has locked in with this kid and it's beautiful I know i'm leaning hard on that but it's it's fantastic what he's done here It's so hard to do and do it well because you can't do it with everybody You know, this kid's not trying to to to come back on him. He's not trying to do anything He's just puking up information everywhere and that's why Because once you're in it, you feel like you're building this relationship with this person That's what happened. You feel like you're becoming friends with him. So you've got to trust him. You got to tell him things That's what he's done. That's what's going on here So his kids feel like he's building a relationship and and going back to what you're saying greg and i'll talk about a little bit later on He may not have had a figure like that in his life He could he could bond with like he was saying earlier chase as well about someone being older and trying to connect with that person and And trying to make them proud of you or happy for you or or be happy with them So he's identifying with him and that's just one of the reasons like I said earlier that he's just puking up all this information Because he doesn't feel the need to to push back on it. I think he feels okay about it But on the other hand, I don't think From an emotional standpoint, I don't think he has anything in there to to feel bad about or feel, you know I don't think he feels bad. I don't think he's a psychopath But I don't think he's I don't think he's emotionally. I don't think he's coming across They're giving up any emotions in this so but I do think he's trying to connect with this guy And that's why they're connecting so hard I went over disabled the alarm Okay, that's what I did and then where's the the pad for your alarm? It's not the front door. It's what it's now the front door. Yeah, and I'm sorry. I'm disabled the alarm so You know, but has she already gone outside? She went outside and got up and had to have to go So where where did she uh, she she was playing in the takeaway and he to go for back from You know the bench and off we go go outside choking home That is on the bench out front Yeah, I was a little bitch and he threw a bitch on her and went back inside To go after the little kids. Did you bring her in or did she stay out? She stayed out until he asked me to be in my house and to go from inside. That's why she's in the on You're thinking to go right So she brought her back. Yes. She's still alive. Yes. You're still screaming and then that's about the time Dad came down And he went back and boys having a little bit of Boys that's what they call it on our room Um, really start attacking there. They got a little bit of a fight. Um, but then eventually Well, I got him down in them. I think he killed him. Did he cut his throat too? um Where did that happen in our room in your room? Yeah, and uh Where were you? I was standing in the hallway. Okay. So did you see him cut your best throat? Did he stab him in other places too? I don't know. I think he just went for the tube You know, you guys had all these detailed plans You had all the cool stuff to make it happen And it kind of started falling apart and he said like it didn't go his plan I think I mean, did you kind of just freak out a little bit like yeah, it's really happening I didn't know I was going to the light Yeah, you don't but here's what's here's what's getting me. It's like it's crazy because you guys worked together and made all these plans and You know had it all figured out and then when it happens You're just kind of standing there not doing anything and did you did you decide like Robert's going to kill everybody and I'm going to stand here doing nothing. So I better I mean, did you I didn't kill anyone I've been to it. So I just want to let him Like kill a few one. Yeah, you stab somebody in the neck. I mean, I just kind of Oh, what I'm saying is is it's not Robert's the one that should get all the credit here. I mean for I mean Yeah, because it's a big deal. I mean you're gonna be on the news You know what I mean people are gonna want to intervene. Yeah Well, but I'm just thinking he does Because you had said you had the plans like You're supposed to kill this person. Yeah, he's supposed to kill this person. Were you supposed to kill christopher? Was he your responsibility? No, um, he just worked out that way. He was supposed to be his responsibility. I was supposed to kill dad But he had already basically done that. Yeah, so now you're left standing there So were you trying to kill christopher when you stabbed him in the neck? Were you just gonna I don't I mean So originally Your responsibility was victoria victoria and dad intact. Yeah Did you guys talk specifically because you said you said the crossbow So you said I mean you guys had a plan like this is specifically how we're gonna do it Yeah, I was very specific unfortunately, you know I think he got his plan to remove something. It's that simple character. Yeah Well, it's supposed to be a lot quicker and quieter. I guess I mean All right mark, what do you got? Yeah, well, I love about this is you know as well as the Male interviewer is is doing here I think he runs out of runway a little bit and you see him turn to the female interviewer and he has that look of Can you go now you take over now? Yeah, she comes in with a question He then regroup gives him enough time just to regroup himself and he's back with it with an idea Or maybe just a little more confidence around the idea that he had so I mean look even when you've got somebody who who Looks to be doing so well at this. I mean, he's so casual with him Um, he's so kind of calm. He's so engaged so interested curious About this, but you see him run out After a while great that he's got somewhere with with him easy handover takes back over I thought it was lovely to see that great. What are you going this one? Yeah, this is a really good one because we do see him close up But we see him close up at a certain time and in you know, you can we I'm with you chase We get no whether it's cold or not in the room and his hands are trapped Which usually you don't do if you're feeling really really threatened But I do think he's burying and the reason I think he's burying is because we see his Shoulders rise and get tighter as he goes into this whole conversation When he first starts with this accusation he had all this cool stuff and plans is when you see him crossing I think he's uncertain where it's going. I think he gets okay with it Because the detective then does Something very simple He says did you kind of freak out and you see the kids brow like yeah Yeah, I kind of freaked out raised in recognition and a quick nod to agreement This detective has done a great job of getting real estate in this kid's head And even does up talk kind of a positive thing. Oh, no, you don't that usually not how it goes So he's reinforcing that relationship and not condemning and that's a powerful tool when you're trying to get people to talk But as he started saying something about yeah, that was my plan and I didn't want to do it Now he's trying to start shuffling and to protect himself from What's eventually going to get him locked up forever and that's him and his brother Both going against each other. I believe if I recall correctly And this cop's gotten him to a point of trust where he thinks that this cop believes what he's saying So he's going to tell him whatever he want whatever he thinks the cop will listen to and There's some emotional Accessing and exasperation Uh, I'm gonna just jump over a couple of these things that shallow breathing And narrowing up the shoulders is the only reason I think This is getting to every see your shoulders get tighter and tighter and tighter and higher It's how turtling occurs. But in this case, I think it's just he's His rib cage is getting higher and higher I think up to now up until we get into this He's been in this place where he has this illusion that what he was doing is kind of cool But he's bonded with this guy now and now if this guy doesn't think it's cool now There's a different thing So whatever he brought to the equation that made him talk about this like it was just a normal thing He's starting to fail a little bit and we start to see breaking eye contact Because I think he knows this detective isn't pleased with what he's saying No matter how polite the detective is and there's a there's a chance of being judged and I think that's what we're seeing Uh, Scott, what do you got? All right. Yeah, the kid closes off here in his head turtles down a little bit and crosses his arm He looks at the arms. It looks at the floor just I'm not going to repeat everything you were talking about there though, Greg But the detective is still playing this low aggression play with him And you're right And he's doing that because he can do that now without fear of being the kid pushing back because he's already bonded with him And then when that woman start the woman detective starts asking questions That helps as well because you bring that female thing into it. You deal with a kid who's testosterone is probably through the roof And so he needs that motherly figure, which I don't think the mother and his family obviously wasn't A big deal for him. He wasn't attached to her very well. So I think that that light voice of and it's it's not a Um, it's not an aggressive voice at all as she's talking to him. So I think that that helps as well Now I think the the the detective understands that too. I think she steps on him a little bit here in a few minutes But but on this one she does I think he was waiting for her to jump in with whatever question was going to be um But unless remember this kid is talking about killing his entire family But he's talking he's if you if you watch this without the sound on You you you could I could tell you they're talking about this kid getting a troll for stealing a bike that's how unimportant the sound how Stress he is about that part of it. I think he's worried about what's going to happen to him because he doesn't know At this point not that he cares. He I think he's just wondering so he's a little bit frustrated about that So no emotions Anything like that in there. So so far from a layman's perspective It doesn't look like it like much is going on But from an interrogator's perspective when you see what's happening And I keep focusing on the same thing because I think he's doing such a good job of it This guy is so good at doing this. So that that's where my My focus is because I'm so excited about that chase. What do you got? Yeah, I agree with you. I don't know if y'all could hear my phone going off I had my mom on emergency bypass. She's asking if I can chat for a minute And I had to respond to her. So hey mom, I'm filming a panel right now So his When he's crossing his arms one thing that I always look for is what I call digital flexion So is the hand just relaxed on the arm or are you seeing the fingers? Make indentions into the flesh into the skin there And so we're seeing a lot of tension in the hand And his first large sign of hesitancy and stress here is to the question of his intent With stabbing christopher He's probably trying to minimize his motive and motivation. Everything else is pretty much the same. We're seeing great interrogation We're seeing a stressed out kid who's unusually absurdly calm. That's all Mark would you go? Yeah, just Uh, what have I got? Um Nice how the interviewer here brings the subject into present tense and present tense feelings rather than how were you feeling At that time, how are you feeling now the interviewer asks? um That'd be nice if the uh, if the subject had any feelings, but he doesn't have any feelings here He's got no feelings Uh, certainly he isn't able to explain or talk about any of those feelings that he may have had At the time certainly not able to put them into a present Tense, uh, he just reiterates that he didn't want to do it. So he's back in Uh in motive in actions and will not go to feelings now Is that because he doesn't have feelings or he wants to move away from feelings and into motive Both could be a both could be a possibility probably both are a possibility um Why lure them says the interviewer No, I don't know what the subject says back can't tell what the subject is saying at all In that listen to it about 10 times have zero idea try to find a transcript couldn't find one So I don't know what he says So so this may be more helpful for you if you know what he says But what I see on after what he says is lip compression including The chin come right in like that. What's that men where they put, you know, that dog Doing that. Oh, yeah, I'm afraid my dog has been involved in a sex scandal. Yeah, basically he does he does that gesture Exactly. He looks off They there's then some asymmetry in the mouth as well, which can mean all kinds of Possible things. It's not a good enough image for me to really see what's going on here But ace enough asymmetry for me to go something's going on Something's going on there and there's a single shoulder shrug on top of that as well I wish you knew what he was saying at that point, but I don't so go in there See what he's saying And and put down below what on earth he says at that point and subscribe at the same time that'd be fantastic You know, you guys had all these detailed plans You had all the cool stuff to make it happen And it kind of started falling apart and he said like it didn't go as planned I think I mean did you kind of just freak out a little bit like yeah, it was really happening Well, I didn't know what I was going to like Yeah, you don't but here's what's here's what's getting me is like it's crazy because you guys work together and make all these plans and You know had it all figured out and then when it happens You're just kind of standing there not doing anything and did you did you decide like Robert's going to kill everybody and I'm going to stand here doing nothing. So I better I mean, did you I didn't kill anyone I couldn't do it. So I just went to let him Like kill a few one. Yeah, you stabbed somebody in the neck. I mean, I just kind of Well, what I'm saying is is it's not Robert's the one that should get all the credit here. I mean for I mean Yeah, because it's a big deal. I mean you're gonna be on the news You know what I mean people are gonna want to intervene. Yeah Well, but I'm just thinking he does Because you had said you had the plans like You're supposed to kill this person. Yeah, he's supposed to kill this person. Were you supposed to kill christopher? Was he your responsibility? No, um, he just worked out that way when they all were supposed to be his responsibility. I was supposed to kill dad And it's a hope that you're doing but he had already basically done that Yeah, so now you're left standing there. So were you trying to kill christopher when you stabbed him in the neck? Were you just gonna I don't I mean I've put this in the middle of the neck. I think I might have even hit him in the shoulder I certainly didn't do it so originally Your responsibility was Victoria Victoria And dad And dad Yeah, that's who's supposed to take care of Did you guys talk specifically because you said you said the crossbow? So you said I mean you guys had the plan like this is specifically how we're gonna do it Yeah, it's about a specific unfortunately, you know I think he got this plan to remove his something. It's simple correct that way. Yeah Well, it was supposed to be a lot quicker and quieter, I guess. I mean, did you say anything to christopher? I know So so you stabbed him now it's Several hours later. How are you feeling? This whole thing Like feeling when you first stabbed To gain caught I think you only lasted about 50 minutes. Yeah. Yeah, but that was like because it's it's eight o'clock in the morning now So it's like eight hours ago. Yeah, so how do you feel now? I mean just kind of I didn't want to do that Yeah So you were saying You pleaded with I guess when they were locked in the Bathroom and we don't know the room where they locked in Uh the bathroom and then right next to it is um, that's office stand along to itself. You know, it's office Is it just one door to get into the bathroom in the office? No, right two doors got to each other, right? Like this You know, like And um And I was like I said hello, uh, what's up to me and they both have been done And which room did you go in? I went into the bathroom. Just yeah, I stabbed Christopher Okay, but then what did Robert go? Robert went in to the office where Daniel was stabbed and Daniel ran off And they came into the bathroom and started stabbing Christopher. I laughed Okay, so I guess where I'm kind of confused is if you didn't want this anymore and you didn't want this to go down this way Why conment and opening the doors in latin is continue? I was to come to help Chase what do you got? So he's in a fight or flight during his recall and when he's asked to process how he's feeling how he's feeling His only concern. I think here's protecting himself The behaviors here are the same we see in all examples of fight or flight response So it's not a huge difference there. Scott. What do you? All right, again, it's another great example of the detective matching the emotion of the kid And it's very in the kid's size and he sized he and looks down and the detective size in the same way So I thought that was brilliant the way he's doing and he's doing exactly Emotionally from emotional standpoint what the kid's doing So at the same time at the end the kid is looking at both the the detective the guy detective and the woman detective And he's these are confirmation glances just to make sure that they're they're interconnected to see what they're thinking You know sort of check in and see how things are going All right mark. What do you got? Uh, yeah, so as we've been saying throughout he's never at any point suggesting He wasn't involved. He's trying to minimize the extent to which he's involved I'm not entirely sure why I think the the interviewer asked him later on Does he think that'll you know be better for him if he was involved Less in some way the body count was less for him But but but clearly it's something he wants to do. He says I just told him three I think the three is referring to the amount of people he may or may not Have been involved with and on that we get a heavy breath out We get a look away. So an eye block to some extent we get this release of tension In the hole of the head, which then doesn't stabilize So this little kind of wobble at the end and then he gives a look Around as well. That could be another release of tension, but I think it's probably a threat check At that, you know, or possibly uh, both or any or or a threat check excused as as releasing tension But certainly there's a a big deviation from his Usual nonchalant baseline on I just told him Three and this number being Uh important. Look, this doesn't really tell you anything interesting or new about this case But it does tell you to look out for You know clusters of very different behavior or one piece of very different behavior around some specific item or specific word And I think there's a a really good clear because he has got this incredible baseline of of apathy Around around the event but on the number how many he's involved with plus or minus Three there. There's a big baseline change and that's interesting. Uh chase. What are you going on this one? Or somebody else Greg I'll get there in the end. Greg. What are you going on this one? Did you sleep either last night mark? I think all of us are there from this weekend. But Yeah, yeah chase agree. You get to see some fight or flight in here And I think the genesis of that fighter flight is that this cop that he is now bonded to is starting to poke And pride so we see him his respiration rise up into his upper chest And we see him and blow out this to those things we were talking about He's also I think this is my opinion that he's exhibiting some shame when the guy asks a hard question He tucks his chin and looks away breaks eye contact and checks back for confirmation or whatever he's doing Where there's threat or confirmation And he doesn't the reason I point that out is because when the woman asks a question that all disappears And he looks right at her when he's answering the question So I think this guy has done such a good job of bonding to him That it's hard for him to look him in the eye when he's saying I kill three Which is very different than when he first came in the room when he was happy to say I did this I did that I did this so when we're paying attention This is what I love about this The short clip is this is a great example of this detective sinking with this kid Regardless of whether he knows he's his opponent or not There he's gotten into his head to a place that this guy's feeling some remorse or some guilt for having to tell him this stuff I don't think he feels any remorse for killing the people I think he doesn't want this guy to judge him and that's Masterful interrogation. It's all got good catch How about explaining this You're unexplainable Let me tell you something here's something I saw Spidey do he does it all the time like he's on stage He does this thing where he grabs his is he'll grab his thumb And and somehow gets a hold of it. He does this and he damn pulls his thumb off and pulls it all the way Into his hand I've never seen anything like him before in my life But why ask him to do it? He does this thing where he grabs his thumb He pulls it down then pulls it back. I don't know how he does it He does it all the time You do it's voodoo magic. Yeah, he loves it Did you say anything to Christopher? I don't know So so you stabbed him now it's Several hours later. How are you feeling? This whole thing Like feeling moving for a step to get caught. I think you only last you about 50 minutes. Yeah Yeah, but that was like because it's it's eight o'clock in the morning now. So it's like eight hours ago So how do you feel now? I mean Just kind of I didn't want to do that. Yeah So you were saying You pleaded with I guess when they were locked in the Bathroom and what we don't know the room where they locked in Uh the bathroom and then right next to it is um, that's office stand along to itself. He has office Is it just one door to get into the bathroom and the office? No, right? Two dudes got to each other right like this You know like And um And I was like I said hello for all what's happened to me and they both have been top And which room did you go? I went into the bathroom to see me. I wanted to stop Christopher Okay, but then what did Robert go? Robert went into the office right and was stabbed and Daniel ran off And he came into the bathroom to start stabbing Christopher. I left Okay, so I guess where I'm kind of confused is if you didn't want this anymore and you didn't want this to go down this way Why con and then opening the doors in London is continue. I was trying to help So here's a problem that we might have And I don't want it to be an issue for you because you've been really cooperative You know, we're going to talk to Robert too. So he's going to give us his version of the story and You know, sometimes they're going to be different. So Um, is there anything that You kind of didn't quite tell me right or you changed a little bit And now that you understand that Robert's going to tell me everything Um, he'll probably tell you that I could forget you of them because that's why I told him You know, he was saying out of the woods that's my conversation But you know for instance, I'll show you how they said I'm Christopher What three what do you mean you told him so you told him that you killed through me? Yeah, I told him because he asked me how many did you get I said three Did you tell him who you bought? No, I just said three So do you I guess this is my question for you. Do you think it's a lesser sentence if you killed one or if you killed three? Greg what do you got? So they do a good bait question or we know all if you're talking about shark for the same way and I love Is there anything is my note. Is there anything if you're sitting interrogation room if you're here Is there any reason is there is there you should already know you're being set up that is a setup And in the not in the intelligence side, we would call that we know all hey We know something you don't know we know and we're going to see if you'll play with it. That's where we go He also tries then this kid tries to do Um trading guilt. I'm going to tell you that I lied about how many people I killed to my brother Although we know he killed one he's already admitted. I killed one person one of my family members But I lied to him about three. That's a trading guilt thing I always talk about where personal try to throw out something so you'll leave him alone about something else There's throat protection And I avoidance after he said I said I got three and then that lip compression Mark when you're talking about with the dogs I my opinion is what he's doing here is that's resolution to the issue He's just gotten to a point where I'm resolved to it. This is the way it is And I think that's what we see a lot of times in these people like we saw bill Clinton We saw anthony wiener. We saw List the guys here that are on that picture. They do that once they're busted. I think it's I'm resolved to the issues I'll leave it with that chase. What do you got? the one big thing here that I'll point out and this is not a Not a dig on them at all, but you you should never Never mention sentencing inside of an interrogation room as an interrogator You should be talking about that that puts somebody in what's called long-term thinking and consequential thinking We want them in short-term impulsive mode And there and that's our job as interrogators is to keep them in short-term thinking This facial touching is really This kids tell for deception He's done it several times and each time he's done it. There is a proven Why that immediately follows this this facial touching And Is anyone else? I don't know if y'all heard it how he's pronouncing three here He pronounces the word three Three different ways In here, it's so hard to hear throughout this whole thing that I just Skipped over a third of these videos because I couldn't understand him Then there's deception here with describing the number to his brother. There's lip compression. There's this large inhale There's a confirmation glance where he's checking to make sure that he's being believed There's a giant head movement scots getting up and leaving. There's exit checking Then there's a second confirmation glance. So that's a huge Besides scott leaving that is a huge mountain of deception indicators scott I'm sorry. I thought so. I was trying to get in it was haddy. Sorry. I should scratch on I couldn't with these I can't hear I was like what the Couldn't tell what was happening. I'm so sorry No worries. What do you got? Um Okay, uh, this is where the kid's body language really ramps up He's got a lot of stuff going on here like we were talking about he's got mouth grooming going on His breath rate goes up. He's goofing around his nose. He's rubbing his hands. His cadence speeds up Uh, a couple of deep breaths and this is all based around that The question there and I think you're right. Chase thinks she she sort of stepped stepped on it there a little bit You know, I don't know what the I couldn't figure out what the reasoning for that would be when she did that But the detective is right there with him matching his body language of stress Anxiety and apprehension greg All right, mark. What do you got? Yeah, I've only got one thing on this We should like the rest of you can't for the life of me hear what the kid's saying have zero idea And so I was trying to work out I was just checking my phone there because I was trying to work out who it reminded me of and then it came up There's a dick tracy character called mumbles Yes Yeah, and there's in the film of it dustin hoffman Plays him and does just a brilliant job. So, uh, you know, don't don't leave the show now Because there's more to come But after the show once you've subscribed and all the usual stuff Can I check out mumbles on from dick tracy very funny and very similar to the The murderer that we have here Let's have another video. You know what was missing here For interrogation purposes what was missing here is emphasizing the truth and why this happened Uh, I think they would have gotten really far just going along those two venues like I we know what happened. We know You know, there's multiple people. We know it's a little more than you're saying I want to figure out why first like what what is the meaning behind all this and start dragging that out Drag that out of a 16 year old get him to try to build rapport back to the interrogator I think that would have been fantastic and keep in mind because they He positioned why earlier on which is it isn't society. It's about numbers. So they've kind of They've spent that ultimately and oh no by well, I mean they they they if that was a question that they've got they spent that question Uh early on and suggested exactly what the motive was Yeah, I think they were working brother against brother at the same time too and they're probably are feet They're probably getting feed. You know, hey, what do you need from me? What do you need from so? I think your right chase you can get a lot out of the other thing I've read that there were cameras in the house associated with the alarm. So His father I think was an it guy and had a whole bunch of stuff tied in so they probably have all the evidence in the world I don't know. But yeah, I agree with you. You could get more out of him if you ask why because any But these I don't know these kids have that density Did you any of you guys think he might have repeated that word three different ways because he's uncomfortable with how he speaks Chase because I wanted the same thing Too big. Yeah, I just think he's that's part of deception So Yeah um So here's a problem that we might have And I don't want it to be an issue for you because you've been really cooperative um You know, we're going to talk to robert too. So he's going to give us his version of the story and You know, sometimes they're going to be different. So um, is there anything that You kind of didn't quite tell me right or he changed a little bit And now that you understand that robert's going to tell me everything Um, he'll probably tell you that I told three of them because that's why I told him You know, we were seeing out of the woods to make conversation But you know friends will show you and they said i'm christopher What three What do you mean you told him so you told him that you killed three of them? Yeah, I told him because he asked me how many did you get I said three Did you tell him who you bought? No, I just said three So do you I guess this is my question for you. Do you think it's a lesser sentence if you killed one or you killed three? No What I mean I don't know I I think robert he may have There's going to be a lot of differences. That's what i'm concerned about and we don't want you to come off as a liar I mean because you've been Real cooperative you seem like a really good kid, you know, you graduated high school early You're designing games. I mean There's all kinds of stuff you got going on And so I don't want people to get a bad opinion of you And think that you're the type of guy that lies to police when it's kind of caught, you know, I mean Um Tell me I know that you're leaving something out. There's I mean because it's like she said You know you're this isn't like You stole a bicycle, you know, this is the most you can do You know, so it's a big deal Um But a lot of people when they talk and think about this thing Your honesty is a big deal and how you handle yourself from here on out And if you come off because because to me you don't seem like a bad guy, you know, like you don't scare me I mean, I never never thought you would have done this. So You just seem like a normal kid to me And you seem like an honest kid But see I talk to people all the time and I mean I I know when people are lying or when when I'm not quite getting the whole story and so I just want Catch you before you get in that bad spot where people start saying you're a bad guy You're evil. You're a liar So just tell me what I'm missing Oh, I mean along with you do a thing. I was uh going to get onto Like convincing the people who were still alive that like I was on the side I called the police, you know, so they wouldn't like stay and I would get them So they kind of stay on the ground He'd be able to come stand him again. Did you ever have to Go get Robert To let him know someone was still making too much noise or anything No, no, this is uh, he got it. He was just going from person to person So what kind of things did you say to them? Uh, the only things I said to them was when I was trying to convince them that I was with them so they would You could kill them. Okay All right mark, what do you got? Uh, yeah, uh, he says you're leaving something out and there's uh a big breath in and then I'm Puff out of the cheeks there, which can often mean somebody doesn't quite know where to go next like what do I do? You know, they're a bit stumped. Where do I go next with this? Um Now he then goes into you don't seem like a bad kid. You're a normal kid Just so you know I really don't think anybody in that room other than maybe the kid thinks That he's he's not a bad kid and he's a normal Kid this is just a show that they're making in order to win that person over to minimize That minimize it to the extent that Yeah, this is we think this is very normal not to you know, like your mum and dad too much or all the rest And you know want to count bodies, you know, you're a good you're a good kid They don't think that they're trying to win across um The the subject to them Greg what are you going this one? Yeah, this is a beautiful Beautiful subtle example of pressure and this is real pressure And if you're not in that room and you're not feeling what this gets feeling you're not feeling what it Where it's headed. So this is trading guilt in reverse. You might say but I'll tell you what it really is He's saying hey We already know you're a murderer. You won't lie or added that and it seems like okay That's trading guilt in reverse But what that really is is something I call personal extinction always have If I can figure out what four things make you who you are and I take all them away except for one and I go Guess what you'll start to feel like you need to say something and it works wonderfully in many many instances A lot of people who do horrible things in the name of a cause Will Stand up all day and say i'm no liar And if you can put them on the call for a liar Then you've got them if you put them on the on the map for a liar Then you've got them and he's doing a really good but subtle job of doing it And usually the perpetrator this guy is going to go the other way you heard him do it earlier I lied but I didn't kill he's doing it this way saying I know you killed so so what? And if you don't believe it see the respiration increase All of it rise up to his upper lungs again when he gets to the fact It's not like a bike that respiration shallow and you can hear those co2 excels that we are always talking about He does a great job of compounding the trust and getting this guy to listen to him and Scott you talked about earlier But if you really want to know what this guy's doing listen to this video because his vocals Are slowed his cadence is slowed his volume is lower You know consistent tone and pitch is a beautiful thing Look, I don't think there's any One of the videos we've seen yet that is as subtle as this but as powerful as this one You see the kids cadence of his movement start to glitch And you can also then see He's protective of his words and you see his head shake and pause before he says anything I think he's now shielding whatever he says and everything is deviation baseline And I think it's only directed at this guy the woman were to ask another question right here I think we get a different response and I think they're smart enough and chase it Maybe maybe it was intentional for her to come at him I don't know with that sentencing question to push him back into this in this guy's Into this guy's grasp But yeah, I think it's this is a really good one. Scott. What you got? All right. Yeah, again I think this is a great example of building this kid's ego up and telling me he's a good kid And he's not like his brother and that telling him telling the truth is going to show everybody that that he's He's not like his brother. He's not he's not the most evil of the two So I think and I think he executed that beautifully as he when he did that because the kid is right there with him In this whole time. He's built up that rapport. He's built up that connection He's built up the kid creating a relationship with him. So now he's got him right where he wants him, you know He's got him to to even when the smallest little things glitches come up he can talk to him and ask him about him and he'll he'll give him to him and He delivers that so well And this is different from my all-time favorite interrogation that jim smith did with russell williams This this kid isn't a full-blown psychopath This is one of those cases where the the emotions were weren't Developed as a child in my opinion now. This is this just might be Um because you've got two different kinds of things people call like you were talking about earlier chase people call both psychopaths And it's a person who is born that way you have the nature versus nurture Concept where the person is born and their amygdala don't work properly. I know i'm all the time talking about this So i'll make it short But the amygdala part of the limbic system that helps you have empathy for other people. I give you Enables you to have empathy for other people not just sympathy, but feel the way they feel So I this kid may have a hint of that. I can't tell but we are seeing spots of him talking from an emotional Place. I don't I really don't think the kid's a he's acting psychopathic. His actions are He's a psychopathic killer But he did I don't believe he's a psychopath. I think he's his his his nature or nurture He was raised that way. His emotions weren't nobody said to him. Oh, don't hurt that little dog because you know It'll hurt him don't pull his foot that way or his tail because it hurts and never gave him examples Maybe they're mean to him all the time beat him all the time or something That's usually what we see in the Nurture part is where the father or the mother is an alcoholic and they shut him down all the time like like apparently That we know about this kid. So I think that's what's happened here We're not looking at a true psychic the clinical psychopath. We're looking at somebody who is who is Acting as a side, you know has psychopathic Actions in other words, I guess you'd say so even though the crime was horrifying We're saying enough of the emotions of emotion in there to make me Feel he's not a psychopath But he's riding that fine line that everybody looks at and goes. Oh, I know exactly what that is because he did this He is that No, that's that's I don't think he was born a psychopath Um, who is it chase? Yeah Okay, I think a police Interrogator here did a great job one way that In the future This could be done differently in one way that I teach is when we're talking about like there's some information left out here I distance that from that person. I don't say you left something out or you Are gonna be seen as a liar. I don't do that initially. So I'll first start by removing it And I'll say something I'll trigger him With what he wants and I'll say, you know, there's so many people out there That want to be remembered as an action taker, but they're forgotten as a liar So I'm I'm triggering everything that he wants to be wants to be remembered and lying equals forgetting Like everybody forgets who you are. So I've definitely come up with that But what the interrogator is doing here is called it in In the reed technique school of thought is called a strong positive confrontation and that's what's going on here That's when an interrogation you hear somebody go, you know, john I like you as a person think you're a good guy, but I've been doing this for A long time and if there's one thing I know it's when I'm not getting the full story And that's what's going on. That's kind of the textbook script of what that means there And uh, mostly the same stuff here on the kids side don't want to waste your time What I mean, I don't know why I think robert he may have There's gonna be a lot of differences. That's what I'm concerned about and we don't want you To come off as a liar I mean because you've been Real cooperative you seem like a really good kid, you know, you graduated high school early You're designing games. I mean There's all kinds of stuff you got going on And so I don't want people to get a bad opinion of you And think that you're the type of guy that lies to police when it's kind of caught, you know, I mean Tell me I know that you're leaving something out. There's I mean because it's like she said You know you're this isn't like You're still a bicycle, you know, this is the most you can do You know, so it's a big deal But a lot of people when they talk and think about this thing Your honesty is a big deal and how you handle yourself from here on out And if you come off because because to me you don't seem like a bad guy, you know, like you don't scare me I mean, I never thought you would have done this. So You just seem like a normal kid to me And you seem like an honest kid But see I talk to people all the time and I mean I I know when people are lying or when when I'm not quite getting the whole story and so I just want Catch you before you get in that bad spot where people start saying you're a bad guy You're evil. You're a liar So just tell me what I miss them. Oh, I mean along with you do a thing. I was uh going to get on to Like convincing people who are still alive that like I was on the side. I called the police, you know So they wouldn't like stay and I would get them. So they kind of stay on the ground. He He'd be able to come stand him again. Did you ever have to Um Go get Robert to let him know someone was still making too much noise or anything So what kind of things did you say to them? Uh, the only things I like said to them was when I was trying to convince them that I was with them So they would Okay Uh, I was right The guys that are interviewing Robert Um Kind of gave me a quick version of what he's saying that you did Yeah, and you gotta told me everything. Okay, so I know you're not being completely honest and I I gave you one shot already Which that more than one person So that you stab Or you said more than just one time Oh, I stabbed Christopher How many times did you stab him? I think twice because you don't think we're gonna know that So thank you and go with what you know, you mentioned forensics a minute ago I know I mean, I'm I'm just one of like hundreds of people that are going to look at this thing. Okay I mean we got we got the state police coming in Uh, there's um 20 different forensic detectives at your house right now Um, they're gonna be there a long time because of the scene that it is So everybody that you killed And every single stab wound that you inflicted we're gonna know about And this is your last chance to just kind of let us know to be honest the man up And tell us exactly what she did And and start making the right I hit Christopher. I like to not stab Two of you were dead You did not stab Yeah, yeah, I um, I tried to stab him You stabbed him off? Yeah, I got it, but she was walking away. I tried to go for a night, but you know Is that when you cut yourself then? Yeah, I think I had to do that Where did you stab her? I just had to go from behind to cut, hope I Did you cut her? Yeah, I think so, yeah This doesn't seem like something you have to think about. I know it's it's you're still kind of dealing with it Um, and I wasn't there. I wasn't the one doing it, but you don't have to think about it You know what you did So you cut her neck You stabbed Christopher in the neck. How many times did you stab Christopher? Two weeks to be And who else did you stab? Said tomorrow Because here's the thing Everybody's been stabbed and you both had knives and we know you both stabbed everybody So you guys are kind of at the same level and so now it's Who's going to be honest and make this right and who's a liar? Okay, which one do you want to be? Okay, so you're a man of your word? Okay Do you want to make this right and do the right thing at this point in time? Okay What else are you missing? You want to start over then? You tell us where you need to start Oh Greg what do you got? Yeah, there we go again. There's that resolve to it lip compression and a quick nod of confirmation Yeah, I think he's that's where he's using it. There's a respiration increase and his sentence structure is gone Chase you were talking about earlier his pronunciation. We all said his pronunciation is bad But his sentence structure disappears And I think if you leave a guy alone, which they did just before this they walked out for a couple of minutes The person's head does all the work When he's asked them when he's asked him, who else? Watch his head jerk around like a squirrel on the road and then he says, oh, yeah, yeah, I stabbed mom Like he just forgot that he stabbed mom This guy sets the hook. I think we're running through mark. What do you got? Yeah, I think he responds here to the perception of being a man of your word So he doesn't want to be perceived as a liar. It's very interesting where he's playing this moral dignity of telling the truth against the moral indignity Of multiple killings that somebody who would kill so many people in the indignity of that He would actually move towards the idea of wanting to be seen as somebody who tells the truth He does respond to this so he's he has a nature of of I guess being self-centered rather than Social so Clearly he has behaviors which are Antisocial here doesn't mind killing people does mind being seen as a liar Uh scott, what do you got? All right, this is where the or everything changes for the the detective He comes in from talking to the other detectives And he's a little bit worked up. So he knows that aggression is not going to work with the kid being being too aggressive Um from an adult the aggression from an adult So he kind of tampers that down But he tries to keep the rapport alive and he gets to get the question about the kid being honest He has to tell him that he cares and he doesn't think you want anybody thinks he's a bad guy And that's why that's why I ask if he's a man of his word So you're talking to a kid, but that's maybe he's a man of his word So as the adult he's saying you're a man and you know, are you a man of your of your word? Um So I think that's what's going on there that they built that That rapport together the kid's looking up to him at this point because it's probably the the first adult In a long time. It's been nice to and try to connect with him chase. What do you got? Yeah, I've got it all Well I was right The guys that are interviewing robert Kind of taking a quick version of what he's saying that you did And you gotta told me everything, okay So I know you're not being completely honest and I gave you one shot already We stabbed more than one person So who else did you stab? Or do you stab more than just one time? How many times did you stab it? I think twice because you don't think we're gonna know that Stop thinking and go with what you know, you mentioned forensics a minute ago I mean, I'm I'm just one of like hundreds of people. They're gonna look at this thing. Okay I mean, we got we got the state police coming in Uh, there's um 20 different forensic detectives at your house right now Um, they're gonna be there a long time because of the scene that it is so everybody that you killed And every single stab wound that you inflicted we're gonna know about And this is your last chance to just kind of let us know to be honest the man up And tell us exactly what she did And and start making around I hit Christopher. I like to not stab the two of you with dangle You did not stab me. Yeah. Yeah, I um, I just got to stab him You stabbed him off I took a guy I got but she was walking away. I just got to go for a night, but Does that one you cut yourself then? Yeah, I think I must do that. Where did you stab her? I just had to go from behind it Did you cut her? Yeah, I think so, yeah This doesn't seem like something you have to think about. I know it's it's you're still kind of dealing with it Um, and I wasn't there. I wasn't the one doing it, but you don't have to think about it You know what you did So you cut her neck You stabbed Christopher in the neck. How many times did you stab Christopher? Two weeks ago And who else did you stab? Besides mom Because here's the thing Everybody's been stabbed and you both had knives and we know you both stabbed everybody So you guys are kind of at the same level and so now it's Who's gonna be honest and make this right and who's a liar? Okay, which one do you want to be? Okay, so you're a man of your word. Yes. Okay Do you want to make this right and do the right thing at this point time? Yes Okay What else are you missing you want to start over then? I'm lying. You tell us where you need to start These stabs I didn't Have And so We only stabbed you only stabbed the your family Because they were in the way Towards the bigger plan well The reason you you was kind of close family is They were in the way and I'm you know, how you count That's a powerful just to start off with a big count So is this all game? I mean this higher count. I think this is a game It's uh, well that's kind of become famous and get your standard record Did you now because you said you said this yourself you told robert you killed three And so now we're starting at the point where you've told us you stabbed christopher and your mother Is there one more person that you stabbed and and you didn't mention earlier? No Okay, I can stick to I want to I it's daddy How do you how do you feel about what you've done? No, I I didn't like it How do you feel about your mother? I mean you I mean she you watched her get stabbed you cut her throat yourself And you watched her bleed all over the place and scream. How does that make you feel? I think about it. You don't want to think about it And christopher your little brother I mean you stabbed him in the neck What is he ever done to you? So he's just a number And how does it how do you feel about that now? It's what pointless Chase what do you got? Yeah, go ahead and skip me. I'm gonna skip this one mark. What do you got? Yeah, I think this is interesting for one reason. There's a motive there It's pointless. There's a nihilistic Motive it's pointless That is, you know, I guess a A current and modern trope of why people might do some of these mass killings an idea of look It's it's the whole of life is pointless So why wouldn't you it's it's absurd the belief that life is meaningless not that that's absurd The belief that life is meaningless is called absurdism like who can You know who can make any head or tail of it? so I would just suggest All of us we always need to help people in some way understand that there might be meaning To stuff whatever that meaning might be and if you dismantle Meaning if you dismantle values that that's okay to dismantle them But you have to put something else there instead because if there are no I don't care what the values I mean I might if your values come up against my values of my family Yeah, but ultimately the real problem is when there is absolutely no meaning and everything is valueless because then Why wouldn't you just do something like that if you destroy values? You must replace them with something Greg. What are you going this one? You're back to microculture him and his brother have been in this dance of stupidity Or however long we don't know we don't know what kind of influence they have from outside Through the internet or what parenting because we can't speak to that But they have married themselves to an idea that everything is pointless and so they can do anything they want And that is cult-like when you are repeating to each other and there's no outside influence and they have devolved to this Here's the interesting piece in this video for me If you're not sure what's going on listen to that So you go to release watch him start to rock and distance from her her she gave him the answer any distances and repeats it He suddenly realizes this guy is now judgmental and this guy is Judging him for all the things he's done and he starts trying to accommodate the guy That pointless word mark was his brother's word from the very beginning of this whole thing So he's come full circle and now he's back to that respiration back to that lockdown piece I think what we're seeing here is what he would have been when he walked in the door in the very beginning If this detective had not been masterful at getting him to talk Now did he find out anything that he didn't know don't know but what he did do is Effectively manage this kid to the point this kid opened up and started to talk scott. What do you got? You guys literally covered all the points and it was all about being pointless that I had and that part there greg about that so We bought and so We only stabbed you only stabbed the your family Because they were in the way Towards the bigger plan The reason we was kind of killed family is They were in the way and I'm you know, how you count That's a powerful just to start off with a big count. So So is this all gay? I'm this higher count. I think this is a game It's uh Well, it's kind of become famous and get your state of record Did you now because you said you said this yourself You told robert you killed three And so now we're back at the point where you've told us you stabbed christopher and your mother Is there one more person that you stabbed and and you didn't mention earlier? No Okay, I can see so I want that. I had to have a mouse, but How do you how do you feel about what you've done now? I I didn't like it Minutes How do you feel about your mother? I mean you I mean you you watched her get stabbed you cut her throat yourself And you watched her bleed all over the place and scream. How does that make you feel? You don't want to think about it And christopher your little brother I mean you stabbed him in the neck What did what has he ever done to you? So he's just a number And how does it how do you feel about that now? It's what pointless All right, well we've watched all these videos and we've all come up with a verdict mark. What's yours? Yeah, there's some great moments here where he moves out of this notch along baseline. It was great to see those I'm just going to reiterate again if you remove values. I don't really care what values you put into place Well, I do if they're going to come up against my values But ultimately you have to replace them with something if you don't you're going to have a big problem chase Yeah, we're seeing a mixture of nihilism loneliness and testosterone greg Yeah, we're seeing two microcultures play out the one of insanity between the two brothers who thought everything was okay And pointless and you could do anything you want without enough guidance and influence And we're seeing a developed microculture by a masterful interrogator Who creates a microculture in front of your very eyes for a very short period of time And then turns on the other guy and the other guy can't see it coming scott. What do you got? I agree with all you guys I think you could put this interrogator in the room with anybody anybody and about 20 minutes They're going to think they've made a friend for life one of those guys Whether he likes that person or not no matter what they've done as in this case one of the most horrifying things You can possibly do is kill your family and this guy makes friends with him This guy has this kid believing that they've connected and their friends That was incredible and he deserves credit Out the wazoo for that. I think it was fantastic. All right fellas things is another good and we'll see you next time